They have another agenda then just be comfy on the bike. They wants to be as aero as possible. I would say Mathieu, Wout, Luke Plapp, Magnus Sheffield sits good on the bike.
I had a bike fit with a fairly well known bike fitter who has 'fitted pro teams' and he put me in a position (using Retul) a bit like the Gee Thomas one and it resulted in massive issues. I always assumed he knew what he was doing and the position was right and I rode with that fit for a number of years. Since watching these videos I've followed James' bike fit advice and am back cycling pain free and loving cycling again ♥️
I've had the opposite experience. I was fitted by a person who RODE in the Tour de France and is now a bike fitter to some former WR holder. Was riding with a lot of pain in collegiate years (non retul system). About a year ago I found James's info and fixed most of my issues but wasn't perfect. Recently found a Retul fitter that uses it as a reference and then adjusts based on the rider's need and have been pain free since.
@@yoavmiller216 you are bang on. James fits are a lot more in depth. I had one with him almost 18months and it was amazing. The info in videos he dose get you almost there with out the technology.
@@youeatpoo1 Really late to this conversation, but your last sentence is what separates good fitters from... average or lackluster fitters. Using these established systems isn't bad but relying completely on it to "fit" people is just not optimal. It can be used as a good baseline but fitters should always listen to their customers and not dismiss their feedback just because "the machine says this and that." The character, experience, knowledge, and wisdom of your fitter as an ex-pro may also be very different from other ex-pros-turned-fitter. If they were properly fitted back then, are properly educated/trained, and/or know how to listen to feedback, they'd do well as fitters.
You didn’t touch on the UCI rule that states the nose of the saddle cannot be closer than 1 inch behind the BB. I think the pro’s are just trying to get over the bottom bracket as much as they can for a more open hip angle/better power transfer while still being legal. There’s a reason why tri bike seats are slammed forward.
This. Pros are looking to put the power down, and therefore probably migrate forward. Also for the climber that was shown. It makes sense to migrate forward as you climb. This way you will keep your relative position to the BB.
Exactly For some reason saddles still have noses which make sitting on the wide part uncomfortable. You'll notice that pros are either too far forward to get over the bottom bracket and open up the hips or too far back which forces them to overextend their legs. There wouldn't be any such issues with noseless saddles
@@MrJaycobsen It is 5cm behind the vertical that dissects the bottom bracket! you need a jig basically to see it perfectly, that's what UCI is using! If you use 5 cm behind the bottom bracket, you can't ride!
Ive tried different stem lengths, saddle hight, saddles, saddle all the way forward and all the way backwards and everything in between. Different frame sizes, pro bike fit etc, You name it, I've tried it. I still gravitate towards the nose of the saddle no matter what. I will just adjust body position till im back to square one sitting on the front of the saddle. Ive come to the conclusion that's just the way it is for some people🤷♂️ I aslo dont have any pain or problems anywhere other than the general discomfort of sitting on a bike seat for 3-5hr.
regulations are a big part of these fit issues you mentioned, that 5cm rule is the culprit for riders riding so far forward on the saddle, I myself use a PRO Stealth (shorter nose) to be able to sit forward, before I sat close to the tip of the saddle and I could get more forward if allowed. Other big factor is: you´re only differentiating racing vs amateur, but more than that, the difference in terrain could be more significant and I think those extreme positions you found (e.g Quintana) are actually a feature and not a bug: they have a bike fit that allows the rider to get in a functional/efficient position for every terrain, keeping aero a biomechanics in mind. bike fitter should test the rider in more than 1 position, inclination and intensity
I’ve find James’ matter of fact constant state of annoyance to be addictive because it’s mixed with a health dose of indignation. Seriously, following this advice has led to me lowering my saddle, changing my saddle, getting shorter cranks and narrower bars. These changes have addressed ALL of the pain issues I was having. I worked at a bike shop and regularly did 100 mile rides with my saddle WAY too high. People are still putting their saddles too high, but hopefully, awareness is increasing. I am grateful for James and his enjoyable curmudgeonly rants.
Got interested on all of this bike fitting thing last June after having chronic lower back and right glute pain. So I binge watch many videos on this channel. So I decided to do DIY bike fit and based on my own assessment the solution I got is to change my stem length stem to 120mm -10 with one tiny spacer (from 100mm -7 no spacer) and to move the cleats as far back as possible. In the first few days my back still hurts, but after 2 long rides (153 and 100km) my issues are gone! I also feel like I can put a lot power and maintain a higher ave speed in flats and I'm less tired during long climbs. And this September I'm able to ride 1,000km (and counting) no aching bidy part whatsoever and I feel that I became stronger riding my bike! Thanks for the ideas and inspiration!
Interesting observations about the reach and sprinting. I’m no pro but I have noticed problems after having a bike fit. My reach was shortened to help with poor hip flexibility but now on hard out of saddle efforts I’ll hit my knees on the bars which is inconvenient!
Really wish we could have seen Wout's fit critiqued because I think his is one of the more correct in the current peloton. Not to mention he is about the most impressive atm.
I would love to see a comparison of the pro riders positions in the 70's and 80's to the current position of pro riders. Great video. I enjoy seeing professionals help non pro riders get the right fit, and remove the idea that pro riders have the most optimal position for all riders.
I second that. Would even want to see a take on the development of race positions. I recently seen TdF footage and docus from the 30's-50's and compared to today the positions on the bikes were extremely odd.
@@audiolatroushearetic1822 I noticed in the late 80's, the pro riders did not reach for the hoods until they were out of the saddle on a climb. Riders would primarily hold the top of the bars when seated. Of course, the brake levers were positioned lower on the front of the handlebars.
I’m 54 and looking back it amazes me the different bike sizes I rode while roughly adjusting the saddle height to a “that’ll do” position 🤣 but when I was 18 I was 9 stone and made of elastic bands 🤣 at 54 great care is now taken with fit and position otherwise I’d be in big trouble 🙄
I've theorized an optimal saddle hight and position for climbing is not necessarily an optimal position for sprinting, and if Sagan has to chose one, he is making a conscious decision to adjust position for on a climb to allow less fatigue on the leg position during a sprint which is his primary role 🤔🤷
And I am pretty sure... Sagan is climbing there but the picture is rotated to 'horizontal'. He's sitting like this on saddle because he is balancing the center of his weight to the front to climb easier.
I didn't ride my RR-bike for over a year (was doing more gravel tours) and for the last two weeks started to use it for commute to work (35km a day). Before the hiatus I rode quite often and extended and I remembered it to be quite comfortable, jet with a more "race position" than on my cross/gravel/travel-bike. When I rode it the first three day's I thought to myself "what a torturing device! Is that really my old bike I had so much fun with?". I really had to stretch uncomfortably to reach the huds. I also noticed the same phenomenon that I either slided to the tip of the saddle or I gripped the handlebar way behind the huds. But after 4 days and some gymnastics I finally got used to it again and continue to improve and I really enjoy my performance in a more sporty position, but also on a bad day it feels worse again. So really what I think what we see in many of the fotos are snapshots of riders in different states of form and fatigue, perhaps compensating for the itches and aches even them get on a 180km+ etappe. To a degree you can fit your body to a bike and get comfortable with practice but know where it makes sense to stop. And you're absolutely right: Do not copy everything the pros do! Great food for thought and amazing series!
Would it be possible for James to show us how he chose his bike and how he has it set up. I would like to see how he applies everything he teaches to his personal bike fit.
Its double standard hypocritical ideas if you observe enough. He is a big proponent of slam that stem for average punters. If you think about it, pros can only do and handle it. But he also want his client to look like a pro rider. Pretty bs right? Theres a reason why bikes has spacers. Its not one size fits all.
@@PhiyackYuh Well that's a stupid comment from someone who doesn't listen to him enough. While he openly admits that he prefers slamming stems, he won't do it if the client isn't comfortable with or capable of the position and if it doesn't fit the purpose of the bike fit.
@@PhiyackYuh Such things are irrelevant when his main focus is the angle of leg extension and the correct angle of the ankle at the bottom of the stroke whilst not overreaching. He has been saying this consistently for years - watch a few more of his videos and this concept might just sink in.
Sorry, the problem with photos to judge the saddle hight is the distortion of wide angle lenses. Cyclists often pass right in front of your nose, a normal lens (50 mm in 35mm film) would be too long. It seems, -Sagan is climbing as a sprinter, therefore sitting in front of his saddle -Thomas had clearly a crash (look at his ripped jersey and his forearm) possible sitting on the front his saddle to counter some of the pain -Adam @ 11:36 is clearly sitting on a stationary bike, mimiking a TT warmup, look at the seatpost. As the livelihood of a pro depends on a healthy contact with the saddle, I can't agree with the general opinion that they are more willing to suffer than us normal people. -Armstrong was called Mr. millimeter because of his own particulars in saddle hight. -A masseuse discovered late in the career of Ullrich, that one of his legs was slightly shorter than the other. I don't mean any disrespect...
I think its important to consider tiredness aswell. Once your tired, you might do alot of wierd stuff to compensate for anything, like sitting on the nose of the saddle, but ofc, it might mean it was wrong to begin with
At least some of it is definitely self-inflicted. I can easily see some pros consciously trading the possibility of developing genital issues later for being 5% more aero efficient right now.
advantages of not sitting too high: - less CSA drag - lower COG which improves handling - less Lx flexion (increased flexion can kink illiac arteries and reduce blood flow to lower limbs, and cause arterial endofibrosis. - less listing and pelvic lateral rocking, which facilitates more equal power generation between left and right lower limbs. - more engagement of hamstrings, which increases time to fatigue of quads. - cog closer to vertical over bottom bracket on flats and climbs, which allows smoother transition from quads to hams engagement (down stroke and rear stroke), and less need for sitting on nose.
I wanna see a comparison of Lachlan Morton’s position for road race vs his ultra distance setup. I assume he should have a more comfortable setup for those adventures
You have captured most of them when they are potting down a lot of watts. When I take a huge poll in the front I’m sliding forward on the saddle, I’m not sitting like that all the time. Don’t think G is sitting like that when his not putting down the hammer. That’s the good thing when using a long saddle that you can slide forward and putting down some more watt.
All things bike fit coming from James is gold. I went from a 155mm SLR to the S3 SLR after seeing him mention most riders are going way too wide. Made every bit of difference!
These longer videos on bike fitting are great. It would be worth discussing more what the bike fit is being optimized for -- pedaling efficiency (on flat, when climbing, when sprinting ...), aero when when on hoods on flat ground, endurance, comfort, prevention of chronic injury, or simply lower stress so recovery day is easier ? I like my bike fit so that I have a strong grip reaction on hoods when I hit an unexpected bump, and I like to have the option to move back an inch in the saddle to get a longer leg extension for seated sprints. The hardest part of a race bike style fit is always bending my neck up to look where I am going, and not just looking down at my front tire and heart rate on cockpit computer.
Saddle width has a major factor on were you sit , I have had saddle positions 1.5 cm forward and back from my current position and I still only use 3/4 of the saddle. Also you do find riders and especially the pros who move around on the saddle depending on the terrain or current muscle fatigue
Really interesting. I've always found these types of research and bike fit video, interesting. I had issues with my knees (ITB) and bike fits helped, but with Pros, they have relentless training with close contact with physios, trainers and nutritionists - the list goes on, who analyse every bit of feedback from their riders. I assume their riding stance and appearance on the bike also changes if they are fatiguing on a ride. Super work, guys - I love working things out like this in my head and understand how amazing these pros can come to be.
I've noticed that pro riders today have the saddles REALLY high, compared to pros several years ago. I suspect they are using frames on the shorter side, which, in combination with a slammed stem, allows them to sit really low, i.e., more aerodynamic.
Adam Blythe once said the idea of staying in the same position on a saddle would be horrendous. the amount of hours the pros ride every week and the time they spend in the red zone must be a factor in how much they move around the saddle during races. could it be that these photos are not representative of the total amount of time they spend in the saddle?
According to Adam Hansen, he fits himself and others partly based on getting a stable pelvis and limiting the dead center at the bottom of the stroke aided by Leomo software. That plantarflexion looks extreme, though, and having looked at some photos on his channel he sits very far forward, rides alot on the tops rather than hoods and can't bend his elbows in the drops, because his handlebars are down at his wheel. I can't speak for anyone else's saddle height, but I find that I underextend my leg when at the 144/36 degree knee angle I was fitted at and get a bit too much knee to gut and hip impingement even though I'm quite slim(long legs, rotated pelvis and short torso). This could be down to an uneven saddle engagement, however... have yet to find a position where my right sitbone feels planted and raising the bars just makes me push away from them especially in an aero position.
Great video! I have always looked at the pros positions on the bike and felt like I am not in the same positions as them and thought maybe I should adjust or get a smaller frame to be more like them. After watching this I think I’ll stick with what I’ve got! Cheers.
Pros sit more on the nose of the saddle, because the uci has imposed restrictions on how far forward to nose of the saddle can be in relation to the BB, but being more over the BB enables you to use the quads more. So it is a uci règlement issue rather than a bike fit issue, probably.
Not the first time I've seen the comments / suggestion that pros all sit too far forward on their saddles and have too much reach. I won't argue that some of the saddles look awfully high. But what also occurs to me is that they like the more aggressive, further forward on the bike position. Perhaps was they really need is the saddle just brought forward further? Or perhaps that would then interfere with getting their weight back on the bike enough to descend?
Peter Sagan a known descender appears to also be travelling downhill. Another explanation for the shift forward is to centre his weight more on the bike and provide more force on the front wheel for grip or carving turns.
My usual issue is that the bike feels awesome on the flat... Perfect knee extension, perfect reach... Around 4% incline or higher and I'm at the nose of my saddle for the entire climb... If I had to guess I would say I lower my heels when climbing, but if I try to forcefully raise them it takes a toll on my calves
A good friend of mine who was a semi pro and has been riding for over 60 years has a saying when we are climbing ‘heels down and roll it round’-works for me…..
Biggest factor to keep in mind is the competition I think. Pros are concerned with winning, Health comes at a second best purely by nature of it being necessary to win - you can't win if you're too injured to compete - and if they could ride the bike dead they would. Ultimately, they're taking everything to extremes at the sacrifice of comfort, and such. A perfect fit might make the bike more comfortable and be better for your body and such - but it may not be optimal for a flat-out sprint. Only one of those things is going to give you a realistic edge in the last 300m. These guys routinely risk severe injuries and even death in the pursuit of a coloured jersey. But would you descend 10km at 80kph or more? It's the same thing. Don't get your bike set up like a pro, because your goals are different. We all ride for fun, even if sometimes the fun is competition. These guys, they might have fun occasionally, but that is never why they clip-in to the pedals.
I love your videos very much and you helped me a lot! If I would live near to you, I would be a customer. I was one of those guys who measured their sitbones and bought a sq lab saddle in 15cm because of that. Trying out the narrow slr boost, you speak about in many videos changed my cycling a lot! In my opinion, cyclists should be way more encouraged to try narrower saddles. Thanks for that James!
Listened to a lot of James advice in the videos he's done with Francis and would like to think I've got my riding position pretty much dialed in. The thing is now you find yourself cringing at other riders whose position is terrible. There are two local triathlons near me and they're maybe a great swimmer and runner but seeing them struggle on a bike really gets to me.
Most of these photos were when the riders are doing big efforts I think. Maybe there is something in their bikefits that makes them more comfortable when doddling around in the peleton? Which is probably the most of their time spent. Then when the going gets tough, it's shorter and they are producing a lot of watts so you're barely even seated anyway.
I think most naturally move forward when working hard so yes these arnt the best photos but for me this is where bike fits start to fall down a little as you’re not being tested at fatigue.
Completely agree. One wonders about damage as form drops with fatigue also, causing long run problems. The shot of Nairo looks like he took a spare of a vehicle as he's normally on a smaller frame. Adam is just bonkers, although Ridleys have such weird limited sizing, : cue Andre Greipel. Hows the Autumn?
Always enjoy videos with James, particularly liked the sneaky view of what appears to be a Panerai. Must get a fit before I push the button on a custom frame
Doesn't the reach shorten when climbing? So for a climber like Nairo maybe he wants more optimal position on steep grades and is fine having a bit more reach on the flats?
dunno what you mean, but that was an exceptionally strained image of Nairo, near the end of a race: he's trying to produce more power than would be sustainable for an extended amount of time. In other words not really representable for +80% of his ride.
@@ivarbrouwer197 I mean the steeper a hill the shorter the effective reach of your bike gets (it essentially raises your handlebars respective to your seat). So if he was optimizing for climbing he might have a slightly longer reach which would effectively shorten on steep grades to his desired position. Hard to say from a photo obviously. He's also tiny and may already be on the smallest bike they have.
Note for Geraint Thomas that the team bike fitter when it was called SKY advocated that a rider should have the seat as high and as far forward as could be done safely.
A couple of missed things: 1. UCI rules (saddle behind BB). 2. Crank length (longer - which definitely helps some people climb, requires a more open angle at the bottom of stroke).
Many pros use TT like position with the nose of the saddle dipping down, this allows then to ride on the nose without discomfort. Just my own observation.
People in my cycling club asked me how I was able to comfortably tolerate the amount of drop on my bike. The answer was quite easy: I’m pretty slender and flexible and most of all my reach isn’t absurd thanks to a proper fit
Thats interesting I can handle a lot of drop but I like a short reach. The big drop really takes weight of my hands, arms, shoulders and stops me getting tension headaches
James, at the TdF this year there was a Movistar rider in a breakaway with Fred Wright. I noted his leg was FAR too extended... I'm fairly confident his saddle is too high [but like to see you put a number on this] (there was also great, side-on tv coverage of him with crank at 6 o clock). id love you to do another of these but for more riders. Id also like to hear your thoughts on Nibalis shoulders (bar width) and all of Ryder Hesjedal. Cheers,
they change position on the saddle on the time because sitting constantly in the same place isn't ideal, i always change my position on the saddle and handlebar for comfort, when going up hills i always sit close to the nose, so i dont think theres anything wrong with them sitting on the nose, most of the time they sit in the right spot.
That was interesting and funny, as James mentioned being a pro can sometimes limit what equipment they can use. I would guess the bike set up would vary depending on whether it's a mountain or flat stage. I'm pretty sure Lawrence does have arms, and a bear on a bike like to see that.🤣
Great video, thanks a lot! Two questions: Isn't there this UCI Rule that says that the tip of the sattle mustn't go further than the bb? I found that it can be difficult to stick to that rule if you adopt a fairly aggressive position. That might be why pros slide forward. And would you generelly advise against reducing your setback to the point where the tip of the settle sticks over the bb?
Interesting topic and I'm pondering on how all of these things are generalized also: My Achilles heel tendons are really short, so i cannot really have a proper flat foot and I have a relatively short back, or, long legs and arms.. at 180 cm, and my leg length alone I would be measured at a 58 or 56 frame, but then my stem would need to be almost negative length... In other words: these are specific riders, and cases and they have specific builds and are in some pictures strained but would sit perfectly for 90% of the time until the final of the race when they try to produce more power. now what this means for me personally: in terms of saddle height I could ride an XS frame with maximum seat extension and the reach would only be ten centimeters, would I ride an S-sized frame, the reach, height and drop would be okay with an 8 cm stem + 2cm spacers. Which frame would I best pick?
The length of toptubes at same framehight differ enormously on different models/brands. I always would take the whole frame geometry into account before buying. You only can compensate so much with stem length, saddle position and spacing your stemhight before you hamper your steering, your ride-feeling and even the looks of the bike. Also on a RR-bike too much (or even any) spacers underneath the stem not only don't look good but also are a security risk because more fork shaft is exposed and not supported by the expander plug (which goes hopefully all the way through the stem-clamp). I have a similar body shape like yours and I never regretted to buy a more compact frame (got to get used to the toe-overlap though :D). So if I were you I wouldn't fixate myself on a particular bike brand if they don't have a frame that fits your geometry! Cheers and good luck!
I agree Francis with all your observations in these photos I sometimes Scooch forward when I’m in the drops and maybe want to push the pedal a little bit harder and they get up on the nose sometimes but my question an issue is how do you factor in many of these saddles that are not flat and have that rise towards the back of the whale tail of the saddle I might say that also sometimes pushes you forward or forces you in the center or towards the nose I find the saddles that rise up a problem even though I ride with one I find it kind of messes up the position I want to be in I like your video you had recently of the most popular cutaway saddle that you recommend from Selle Italia
My question would be more on: they tolerate extreme positions but are they getting any (power) benefit from them? I can't work out how a 152.7º knee angle and 33.7º feet angle will provide more power than a "regular" position.
I was watching the GCN video with Lemond's bike and I realized that it pretty much put the rider in a position in dance known as flat back--pretty much a plank from a bent waist. It requires enormous core and back strength to sustain, even for dancers who are just a wee bit bigger than a cyclist on top. Expecting the same function and mobility as a pro's body really should not be something regular consumers expect.
Was the 80s till mid 99s. If you raced, you pretty much rode like that when you put power out. If cruising, hands on tops and a 90degree angle like today on the hoods. We were young…. and absorbed it
Mate of mine is 77 and STILL rides like that-right back on the saddle, long reach, and a dead flat back-mind you he has been riding at a high level for over 60 years!
@@silentandproud882 a friend of mine put her back out from a dance class where she did flat back repeatedly. She wasn’t even thirty and couldn’t straighten up for weeks.
More of this, please! E.g. of other analysis to show: WvA (maybe one of the best fitted), Vdp & Valverde (too high), Yates (G. Thomas replica?), Kiesenhofer (using right leg/cleat shims now vs no shims in Tokyo).
Is James suggesting that with a proper fit you shouldn't have much if any saddle sticking out behind you? Can we use that as a guide in making adjustments at home?
Also take power delivery and aerodynamics into consideration. Studies show that 155 degree knee angle requires less oxygen at high power output. Reducing the frontal surface can further reduce 10-20 watts.
Idea for video: can you do one talking about the planter flection/foot angle. Is optimum saddle height is done with a relative flat foot loaded under power.
That was interesting. My first guess was „Specialized does not make a saddle narrow enough for Sagan“. Can you look at the positions of pro riders from past decades where everyone had a built to fit frame?
Would be interesting to compare with pro's bike fits from 30 years ago, when they all had multiple made to measure frames instead of standard fit they have to use in the carbon era.
In my diaries from the 80's, I have the various measurements from several pro fits at the time.. Looking back, I can't believe I actually rode and raced like that for so long, talk about absorbing punishment and asymmetry ... oof...and my bikes were made to measure as well..
Does pedal stroke play into seat height? Yes. Heal down, toe down dictator of seat height. Which one is better that’s my question? I think it’s just the way the hips and the feet and the ankles knees work symbiotic and how the person produces power into the stroke, it seems to be different between each rider. So I think that’s an important point in fitting is each person might be different so don’t fit your bike to somebody else.
the selle italia slr's fit me very well, but the cut out version is too flexy, and the non cutout is very stiff with less padding. it fits me the best out of any othe rsaddle i'v used but these saddles also need sit bone relief areas too.
I had a fit recently. My fitter bemoaned the tendency toward much increased reach, particularly in gravel bikes. Bikes with 405+ mm reach even on a 56cm bike. Why are companies doing this?
@@Hook-N-Ladder mountain bikes and many of those gravel bikes with short stems are designed that way to put the wheel further out ahead of the rider for a given bike size, leading to a increase in the measurement known as front-center. This apparently increases the stability of the bike, especially on sketchy descents, as it puts less of the riders weight on the front wheel.
@@benbruening2165 Makes sense. So, longer reach and reduced stem so you have greater stability. Presumably, if you tried to accomplish this with a slacker head tube angle, then you'd run into steering issues because you'd need a longer stem, is that right?
Good points! I add my theory that with a longer frame you reduce toe overlap (wider tires than RR-bikes) and increase the space in the triangular section to fit luggage and bottles for bike packing. Unfortunately no gravel bike fits my body shape (short torso, long legs) so I ride a typical cyclocrosser with a compact framelength and horizontal toptube and live with the toe overlap.
Pro's don't push 400 watts all day long. Most of the time unless the are Tim Declercq those particularly skilled in maximising the draft in the bunch can surf the wheels and avoid spending out too many watts until it's needed so there positions need to accommodate a range of needs. Some of the more upright positions short reach can be more uncomfortable with more weight on the saddle. The HTC rider (Rogers?) is obviously climbing - sat back in the saddle with hands further back in a more upright position - often a position riders will go to the tops of the bars in. On the flat I would suggest he will be rolled forward with hands further forward. While I agree moving all over the saddle is bad if you are constantly moving about, but having a number of positions available is not. During a race you need a variety of positions depending on how you are riding which effects where you sit on the saddle & the need for less or more reach. As a rider rolls forward to get in a more aero TT like position it is normal the sit further forward hence the design of saddles that take some of the short nose features of Tri saddles to road cycling - Specialized power, Pro Stealth etc - the old on the rivot position. As you roll forward this also creates a need for reasonable reach to flatted your back out and keep your elbows from interfering with your knees
James said 138-142 with a flat foot at the bottom of the stroke. Nairo was at 134 but his foot was flexed, not flat. If his foot was flattened, the leg extension would be more, maybe right in the 138-142 range. But I am wondering why James didn't point that out?
I would like to start this off by first saying I race Professional Peloton in the United states and secondly that I truly believe this bike fitter is wrong in regards to long saddles. The Arione is popular without a doubt for the fact that you can easily change you position on the saddle. For road racing purposes, having multiple positions on the bike is extremely important. Example 1, it appears that in the photo of Sagan where is sitting on the tip of his saddle, he is climbing. The reasoning for that is to adopt a more straight up position. When climbing aero doesn't play as big as role as on flats, we will sit in my experience as straight up a possible to make is easier the breathe. More oxygen=easier lactate break down, more watts. Also, its I've always found that i prefer to be more quad focused when im climbing as it can be such a violent effort sitting forward on the saddle helps with this. Example 2, Thomas sitting on the tip of his saddle after a big crash. This one isn't as straight forward to explain and sort of requires you being there before. But basically if you have to continue on in a race after big crash your body is just tight. You end up sitting where ever on the saddle you body feels the least discomfort. In this case he had the least amount of pain sitting on the tip. For me Ive had the same situation before and was happy to have a long saddle to at least provide the option for me to find that sweet spot and carry on. Example 3, long saddles give you the option for a when a is really going on a flat to scooch all the way to the back of the saddle and get as aero as possible. Generally these moments are short, max 20 minutes. so it doesn't really bother you to ride in your non traditional saddle position. You just want to be as low as possible and being able to slide back on the saddle really helps for that. it gives you space to tuck your elbows in and you head down more effectively. Example 4, most of the time you spend riding or even racing a long saddle you spend in the middle or towards the wide part in the back. its the most comfortable and you set it there for the long haul. Basically 90% of your riding will be spent there just like you would. its basically just nice to have the option sit elsewhere as your body, the road and how the race is going demands.
I don't think anyone racing in even amateur level should follow bike fitting instructions that aim for comfort, but rather you choose a most aggressive and aerodynamic position you can handle for a given time. Going forward helps with power delivery, also if you are accustomed to high saddle, going lower might cause you knee problems, at least it does for me. I'm extremely flexible and can ride very low and I have problems with the integrated cockpits as they just don't low enough for me. I fully agree that sitting in front of the narrow saddle is not worth the consciences it might cause, even though there is basically no evidence on permanent damage on "male performance". If you tilt the saddle enough and use more power like in hard training or in a race, I at least don't have any issues, but in lower power training you might get problems for sure! One problem is that Pro's can't choose their saddles, so there might not be a wide nose saddle available from the sponsor.
Hey FC and James, this is as much an observation as it is a question but has the industry then got modern geo a little wrong for these bikes? There is a tipping point before a rider will “want” to get further behind the BB. Are seat posts to slack on modern race bikes? Cheers, Ken
interesting you point out that the pros' saddles are sticking out that much, I always thought I'm doing something wrong by sitting more back on the saddle and my butt being flush with the tail end of the saddle
On point, every 'critique' ... and then I raise (again) one question /hypotesis regarding Bike fit, ... and is true to say One person, an ordinary person even weekend warrior to hardcore seasoned riders and even pros can and 'must' have more than single one Bike Fit... why I ask or state these... well; could be proper to say there is the 'standard' bike fit the one that is ideal to a person no matter the estimated use of the bike, commuting or coffee rides, a bit of endurance on weekends, there is this 1st bike fit, then is a 2nd the RACE FIT tested and proven to optimize and stretch the limits of a Pro racer or any person that have been testing the gains and potential gains of a most extreme position in the bike For A Race or a very specific event. RACE FIT must not be the day by day FIT for a non pro cyclist right?
Just a thought; long stems on descents help stability (i say this from years of doing long fast mountain descents)? Maybe shorter top tubes? Also the old hip angle thing being more comfortable when further forward? Been riding and racing for 45 + years, so maybe easier, even old skinny contorted amateurs?
Pros use long stems because most get a frame one under recommended. Why? - Shorter wheel base = more responsive better cornering. Most pros dont need a longer frame or stem for stable descents. - lower stem due to shorter head tube = more aero and lower COG Pros have more flexible spines and are better adapted to shorter top tubes with lower stems.
Maybe, just maybe, pros gravitate to these extreme positions by degrees over time based on power and performance criteria rather than comfort. As they are very strong and highly functional, comfort is not high on their list of priorities.
Maddeningly many bikes come out of the box aimed at UCI cosplay rather than actual recreational riding. My biggest pet peeve is pre-cut steerer tubes that limit the ability to get anything approaching a relaxed fit. One thing I've noticed on the local group rides is how almost nobody every is in the drops, and when they are it looks awkward and painful. You could hack the drops off and almost nobody would notice.
Remember that pro riders, in order to generate all those watts, aren't putting as much pressure on the saddle as they are on the pedals. Thus, the saddle is more of a perch. If most "human" riders rode on the saddle nose, they would be rendered impotent in short order.
Can we do Pro's that have nailed their fits! That would be good to see 😁
I get the vibe that would be a VERY short video 😂
Tao Geoghegan Hart I hear has the best fit in the pro peloton
They have another agenda then just be comfy on the bike. They wants to be as aero as possible. I would say Mathieu, Wout, Luke Plapp, Magnus Sheffield sits good on the bike.
Give us Remco!!!
I would love to see some analysis on Adam Blythe 🙏
Worth it for Francis' closing statement 😁
4:01 woah!
The pro will look like a little bear on a bike....
I had a bike fit with a fairly well known bike fitter who has 'fitted pro teams' and he put me in a position (using Retul) a bit like the Gee Thomas one and it resulted in massive issues. I always assumed he knew what he was doing and the position was right and I rode with that fit for a number of years. Since watching these videos I've followed James' bike fit advice and am back cycling pain free and loving cycling again ♥️
I've had the opposite experience. I was fitted by a person who RODE in the Tour de France and is now a bike fitter to some former WR holder. Was riding with a lot of pain in collegiate years (non retul system). About a year ago I found James's info and fixed most of my issues but wasn't perfect. Recently found a Retul fitter that uses it as a reference and then adjusts based on the rider's need and have been pain free since.
No two bodies are alike. On my mountain bike, I have no bike fit issues. On my road bike, I've discovered that my left leg needs a 12mm wedge.
@@youeatpoo1 Hes giving you only the framework in these videos. I'm sure an actual bike fit would go beyond that for specific needs.
@@yoavmiller216 you are bang on. James fits are a lot more in depth. I had one with him almost 18months and it was amazing. The info in videos he dose get you almost there with out the technology.
@@youeatpoo1 Really late to this conversation, but your last sentence is what separates good fitters from... average or lackluster fitters. Using these established systems isn't bad but relying completely on it to "fit" people is just not optimal. It can be used as a good baseline but fitters should always listen to their customers and not dismiss their feedback just because "the machine says this and that."
The character, experience, knowledge, and wisdom of your fitter as an ex-pro may also be very different from other ex-pros-turned-fitter. If they were properly fitted back then, are properly educated/trained, and/or know how to listen to feedback, they'd do well as fitters.
You didn’t touch on the UCI rule that states the nose of the saddle cannot be closer than 1 inch behind the BB. I think the pro’s are just trying to get over the bottom bracket as much as they can for a more open hip angle/better power transfer while still being legal. There’s a reason why tri bike seats are slammed forward.
This. Pros are looking to put the power down, and therefore probably migrate forward. Also for the climber that was shown. It makes sense to migrate forward as you climb. This way you will keep your relative position to the BB.
I believe it is 5 cm, which would be about 2 inches
Exactly
For some reason saddles still have noses which make sitting on the wide part uncomfortable.
You'll notice that pros are either too far forward to get over the bottom bracket and open up the hips or too far back which forces them to overextend their legs.
There wouldn't be any such issues with noseless saddles
@@FlyingPastilla Noseless feels unstable if you rotate your hip very far, though
@@MrJaycobsen It is 5cm behind the vertical that dissects the bottom bracket! you need a jig basically to see it perfectly, that's what UCI is using! If you use 5 cm behind the bottom bracket, you can't ride!
Ive tried different stem lengths, saddle hight, saddles, saddle all the way forward and all the way backwards and everything in between. Different frame sizes, pro bike fit etc, You name it, I've tried it. I still gravitate towards the nose of the saddle no matter what. I will just adjust body position till im back to square one sitting on the front of the saddle. Ive come to the conclusion that's just the way it is for some people🤷♂️ I aslo dont have any pain or problems anywhere other than the general discomfort of sitting on a bike seat for 3-5hr.
regulations are a big part of these fit issues you mentioned, that 5cm rule is the culprit for riders riding so far forward on the saddle, I myself use a PRO Stealth (shorter nose) to be able to sit forward, before I sat close to the tip of the saddle and I could get more forward if allowed. Other big factor is: you´re only differentiating racing vs amateur, but more than that, the difference in terrain could be more significant and I think those extreme positions you found (e.g Quintana) are actually a feature and not a bug: they have a bike fit that allows the rider to get in a functional/efficient position for every terrain, keeping aero a biomechanics in mind. bike fitter should test the rider in more than 1 position, inclination and intensity
I’ve find James’ matter of fact constant state of annoyance to be addictive because it’s mixed with a health dose of indignation. Seriously, following this advice has led to me lowering my saddle, changing my saddle, getting shorter cranks and narrower bars. These changes have addressed ALL of the pain issues I was having. I worked at a bike shop and regularly did 100 mile rides with my saddle WAY too high. People are still putting their saddles too high, but hopefully, awareness is increasing. I am grateful for James and his enjoyable curmudgeonly rants.
G could use being closer to the ground with the amount he hits it.
Saddle fit for Roglic could do with this optimization as well
SAVAGE AS F**K
Got interested on all of this bike fitting thing last June after having chronic lower back and right glute pain. So I binge watch many videos on this channel. So I decided to do DIY bike fit and based on my own assessment the solution I got is to change my stem length stem to 120mm -10 with one tiny spacer (from 100mm -7 no spacer) and to move the cleats as far back as possible. In the first few days my back still hurts, but after 2 long rides (153 and 100km) my issues are gone! I also feel like I can put a lot power and maintain a higher ave speed in flats and I'm less tired during long climbs. And this September I'm able to ride 1,000km (and counting) no aching bidy part whatsoever and I feel that I became stronger riding my bike! Thanks for the ideas and inspiration!
Big fan of Selle smp saddles, when set up properly no sliding back or forth and very comfortable.
Interesting observations about the reach and sprinting. I’m no pro but I have noticed problems after having a bike fit. My reach was shortened to help with poor hip flexibility but now on hard out of saddle efforts I’ll hit my knees on the bars which is inconvenient!
Just incorporate some hip flexibility exercises and you'll be good after a while. Was having the same issue.
Really wish we could have seen Wout's fit critiqued because I think his is one of the more correct in the current peloton. Not to mention he is about the most impressive atm.
THIS
Came here to say this.
I would love to see a comparison of the pro riders positions in the 70's and 80's to the current position of pro riders.
Great video. I enjoy seeing professionals help non pro riders get the right fit, and remove the idea that pro riders have the most optimal position for all riders.
I second that. Would even want to see a take on the development of race positions. I recently seen TdF footage and docus from the 30's-50's and compared to today the positions on the bikes were extremely odd.
I most certainly echo this ask…I coaches back in 60s had me in totally different position, as was bike geometry..and style of pedalling
@@audiolatroushearetic1822 I noticed in the late 80's, the pro riders did not reach for the hoods until they were out of the saddle on a climb. Riders would primarily hold the top of the bars when seated. Of course, the brake levers were positioned lower on the front of the handlebars.
People say cleats slammed back but it felt like peg legs so I went forward a bit and much better balance and more calf action.
I’m 54 and looking back it amazes me the different bike sizes I rode while roughly adjusting the saddle height to a “that’ll do” position 🤣 but when I was 18 I was 9 stone and made of elastic bands 🤣 at 54 great care is now taken with fit and position otherwise I’d be in big trouble 🙄
I've theorized an optimal saddle hight and position for climbing is not necessarily an optimal position for sprinting, and if Sagan has to chose one, he is making a conscious decision to adjust position for on a climb to allow less fatigue on the leg position during a sprint which is his primary role 🤔🤷
Definitely a factor imo - I would run a completely different position if I were racing compared to regular riding.
(But not an outrageously high saddle height, that would be problematic for me)
@@Cade_Media Yes, I can imagine getting shit from James for your saddle height would be problematic.
And I am pretty sure... Sagan is climbing there but the picture is rotated to 'horizontal'. He's sitting like this on saddle because he is balancing the center of his weight to the front to climb easier.
@@Cade_Media So if you racing your saddle height is higher, than the regular riding setup?
I didn't ride my RR-bike for over a year (was doing more gravel tours) and for the last two weeks started to use it for commute to work (35km a day). Before the hiatus I rode quite often and extended and I remembered it to be quite comfortable, jet with a more "race position" than on my cross/gravel/travel-bike. When I rode it the first three day's I thought to myself "what a torturing device! Is that really my old bike I had so much fun with?". I really had to stretch uncomfortably to reach the huds. I also noticed the same phenomenon that I either slided to the tip of the saddle or I gripped the handlebar way behind the huds. But after 4 days and some gymnastics I finally got used to it again and continue to improve and I really enjoy my performance in a more sporty position, but also on a bad day it feels worse again.
So really what I think what we see in many of the fotos are snapshots of riders in different states of form and fatigue, perhaps compensating for the itches and aches even them get on a 180km+ etappe. To a degree you can fit your body to a bike and get comfortable with practice but know where it makes sense to stop. And you're absolutely right: Do not copy everything the pros do!
Great food for thought and amazing series!
"If you're not a pro, you shouldn't be buying a pro's bike." Nailed it!
Would it be possible for James to show us how he chose his bike and how he has it set up. I would like to see how he applies everything he teaches to his personal bike fit.
Its double standard hypocritical ideas if you observe enough. He is a big proponent of slam that stem for average punters. If you think about it, pros can only do and handle it. But he also want his client to look like a pro rider. Pretty bs right? Theres a reason why bikes has spacers. Its not one size fits all.
@@PhiyackYuh The reason why your bike has spacers is that you bought a geometry that doesn't fit you.
@@PhiyackYuh Well that's a stupid comment from someone who doesn't listen to him enough. While he openly admits that he prefers slamming stems, he won't do it if the client isn't comfortable with or capable of the position and if it doesn't fit the purpose of the bike fit.
@@PhiyackYuh Such things are irrelevant when his main focus is the angle of leg extension and the correct angle of the ankle at the bottom of the stroke whilst not overreaching.
He has been saying this consistently for years - watch a few more of his videos and this concept might just sink in.
Sorry, the problem with photos to judge the saddle hight is the distortion of wide angle lenses. Cyclists often pass right in front of your nose, a normal lens (50 mm in 35mm film) would be too long.
It seems,
-Sagan is climbing as a sprinter, therefore sitting in front of his saddle
-Thomas had clearly a crash (look at his ripped jersey and his forearm) possible sitting on the front his saddle to counter some of the pain
-Adam @ 11:36 is clearly sitting on a stationary bike, mimiking a TT warmup, look at the seatpost.
As the livelihood of a pro depends on a healthy contact with the saddle, I can't agree with the general opinion that they are more willing to suffer than us normal people.
-Armstrong was called Mr. millimeter because of his own particulars in saddle hight.
-A masseuse discovered late in the career of Ullrich, that one of his legs was slightly shorter than the other.
I don't mean any disrespect...
I think its important to consider tiredness aswell. Once your tired, you might do alot of wierd stuff to compensate for anything, like sitting on the nose of the saddle, but ofc, it might mean it was wrong to begin with
16:34 That’s *DEEP* insight. I’ll be sitting on that for a while. “Pro cyclists are pros” is way over my head
This is a testament to the incredible amount of suffering pros can tolerate
At least some of it is definitely self-inflicted. I can easily see some pros consciously trading the possibility of developing genital issues later for being 5% more aero efficient right now.
advantages of not sitting too high:
- less CSA drag
- lower COG which improves handling
- less Lx flexion (increased flexion can kink illiac arteries and reduce blood flow to lower limbs, and cause arterial endofibrosis.
- less listing and pelvic lateral rocking, which facilitates more equal power generation between left and right lower limbs.
- more engagement of hamstrings, which increases time to fatigue of quads.
- cog closer to vertical over bottom bracket on flats and climbs, which allows smoother transition from quads to hams engagement (down stroke and rear stroke), and less need for sitting on nose.
I agree about the Selle slr saddle I use a 133 mm one on my Colnogo, and I love it as much as my Brooks swift on my Domane. great saddle!!
I wanna see a comparison of Lachlan Morton’s position for road race vs his ultra distance setup. I assume he should have a more comfortable setup for those adventures
and the Bike fit benefits of birkenstocks!
This gives great perspective on my own bike position thanks so much for this vid
You have captured most of them when they are potting down a lot of watts. When I take a huge poll in the front I’m sliding forward on the saddle, I’m not sitting like that all the time. Don’t think G is sitting like that when his not putting down the hammer. That’s the good thing when using a long saddle that you can slide forward and putting down some more watt.
All things bike fit coming from James is gold. I went from a 155mm SLR to the S3 SLR after seeing him mention most riders are going way too wide. Made every bit of difference!
My new fav cycling vid. Simply spitting facts for 17 minutes straight. James is a legend at what he does.
These longer videos on bike fitting are great. It would be worth discussing more what the bike fit is being optimized for -- pedaling efficiency (on flat, when climbing, when sprinting ...), aero when when on hoods on flat ground, endurance, comfort, prevention of chronic injury, or simply lower stress so recovery day is easier ?
I like my bike fit so that I have a strong grip reaction on hoods when I hit an unexpected bump, and I like to have the option to move back an inch in the saddle to get a longer leg extension for seated sprints. The hardest part of a race bike style fit is always bending my neck up to look where I am going, and not just looking down at my front tire and heart rate on cockpit computer.
Saddle width has a major factor on were you sit , I have had saddle positions 1.5 cm forward and back from my current position and I still only use 3/4 of the saddle. Also you do find riders and especially the pros who move around on the saddle depending on the terrain or current muscle fatigue
I'm on a tt bike so I move the saddle maxed out to the front and sadly still wish it was more forward. Gonna have to buy a short stem to compensate
Hopeful we get a pro fitted soon, would be interesting how they would react to a much comfortable position. Great video and love the ending lol!
I would love, I mean LOVE if you did a critique of historically great riders' positions. Merckx, Lemond, Fignon, Coppi, Anquetil. Fascinating
Hinault was legendary for the precision of his fit, although nothing really like the modern fit of today, both are efficient in their own ways
Really interesting. I've always found these types of research and bike fit video, interesting. I had issues with my knees (ITB) and bike fits helped, but with Pros, they have relentless training with close contact with physios, trainers and nutritionists - the list goes on, who analyse every bit of feedback from their riders. I assume their riding stance and appearance on the bike also changes if they are fatiguing on a ride. Super work, guys - I love working things out like this in my head and understand how amazing these pros can come to be.
I've noticed that pro riders today have the saddles REALLY high, compared to pros several years ago. I suspect they are using frames on the shorter side, which, in combination with a slammed stem, allows them to sit really low, i.e., more aerodynamic.
its faster to ride on a bike thats a little small for you
Adam Blythe once said the idea of staying in the same position on a saddle would be horrendous. the amount of hours the pros ride every week and the time they spend in the red zone must be a factor in how much they move around the saddle during races. could it be that these photos are not representative of the total amount of time they spend in the saddle?
He also has a stupid position
According to Adam Hansen, he fits himself and others partly based on getting a stable pelvis and limiting the dead center at the bottom of the stroke aided by Leomo software. That plantarflexion looks extreme, though, and having looked at some photos on his channel he sits very far forward, rides alot on the tops rather than hoods and can't bend his elbows in the drops, because his handlebars are down at his wheel.
I can't speak for anyone else's saddle height, but I find that I underextend my leg when at the 144/36 degree knee angle I was fitted at and get a bit too much knee to gut and hip impingement even though I'm quite slim(long legs, rotated pelvis and short torso). This could be down to an uneven saddle engagement, however... have yet to find a position where my right sitbone feels planted and raising the bars just makes me push away from them especially in an aero position.
Great video! I have always looked at the pros positions on the bike and felt like I am not in the same positions as them and thought maybe I should adjust or get a smaller frame to be more like them. After watching this I think I’ll stick with what I’ve got! Cheers.
We want more of this, please! 🍿
this was so interesting, thanks a lot for these videos Francis and James!
Pros sit more on the nose of the saddle, because the uci has imposed restrictions on how far forward to nose of the saddle can be in relation to the BB, but being more over the BB enables you to use the quads more. So it is a uci règlement issue rather than a bike fit issue, probably.
Not the first time I've seen the comments / suggestion that pros all sit too far forward on their saddles and have too much reach. I won't argue that some of the saddles look awfully high. But what also occurs to me is that they like the more aggressive, further forward on the bike position. Perhaps was they really need is the saddle just brought forward further? Or perhaps that would then interfere with getting their weight back on the bike enough to descend?
@@andrewschietzsch5398 The kind of soft chuckle to oneself that hurts a little inside...
Peter Sagan a known descender appears to also be travelling downhill. Another explanation for the shift forward is to centre his weight more on the bike and provide more force on the front wheel for grip or carving turns.
My usual issue is that the bike feels awesome on the flat... Perfect knee extension, perfect reach... Around 4% incline or higher and I'm at the nose of my saddle for the entire climb... If I had to guess I would say I lower my heels when climbing, but if I try to forcefully raise them it takes a toll on my calves
A good friend of mine who was a semi pro and has been riding for over 60 years has a saying when we are climbing ‘heels down and roll it round’-works for me…..
When the front of the bike is elevated you inevitably drop the heel - I’d say your saddles too high!
@@Bikefitjames thanks! I'll try to lower it a bit then
Biggest factor to keep in mind is the competition I think. Pros are concerned with winning, Health comes at a second best purely by nature of it being necessary to win - you can't win if you're too injured to compete - and if they could ride the bike dead they would. Ultimately, they're taking everything to extremes at the sacrifice of comfort, and such. A perfect fit might make the bike more comfortable and be better for your body and such - but it may not be optimal for a flat-out sprint. Only one of those things is going to give you a realistic edge in the last 300m.
These guys routinely risk severe injuries and even death in the pursuit of a coloured jersey. But would you descend 10km at 80kph or more? It's the same thing. Don't get your bike set up like a pro, because your goals are different. We all ride for fun, even if sometimes the fun is competition. These guys, they might have fun occasionally, but that is never why they clip-in to the pedals.
I love your videos very much and you helped me a lot! If I would live near to you, I would be a customer.
I was one of those guys who measured their sitbones and bought a sq lab saddle in 15cm because of that. Trying out the narrow slr boost, you speak about in many videos changed my cycling a lot!
In my opinion, cyclists should be way more encouraged to try narrower saddles. Thanks for that James!
I think you're spot on with all this. Though surprised you didn't mention crank length because it explains toe reach and high knees.
Listened to a lot of James advice in the videos he's done with Francis and would like to think I've got my riding position pretty much dialed in. The thing is now you find yourself cringing at other riders whose position is terrible. There are two local triathlons near me and they're maybe a great swimmer and runner but seeing them struggle on a bike really gets to me.
Most of these photos were when the riders are doing big efforts I think. Maybe there is something in their bikefits that makes them more comfortable when doddling around in the peleton? Which is probably the most of their time spent. Then when the going gets tough, it's shorter and they are producing a lot of watts so you're barely even seated anyway.
I think most naturally move forward when working hard so yes these arnt the best photos but for me this is where bike fits start to fall down a little as you’re not being tested at fatigue.
Completely agree. One wonders about damage as form drops with fatigue also, causing long run problems. The shot of Nairo looks like he took a spare of a vehicle as he's normally on a smaller frame. Adam is just bonkers, although Ridleys have such weird limited sizing, : cue Andre Greipel. Hows the Autumn?
Always enjoy videos with James, particularly liked the sneaky view of what appears to be a Panerai. Must get a fit before I push the button on a custom frame
Doesn't the reach shorten when climbing? So for a climber like Nairo maybe he wants more optimal position on steep grades and is fine having a bit more reach on the flats?
dunno what you mean, but that was an exceptionally strained image of Nairo, near the end of a race: he's trying to produce more power than would be sustainable for an extended amount of time. In other words not really representable for +80% of his ride.
@@ivarbrouwer197 I mean the steeper a hill the shorter the effective reach of your bike gets (it essentially raises your handlebars respective to your seat). So if he was optimizing for climbing he might have a slightly longer reach which would effectively shorten on steep grades to his desired position. Hard to say from a photo obviously. He's also tiny and may already be on the smallest bike they have.
Note for Geraint Thomas that the team bike fitter when it was called SKY advocated that a rider should have the seat as high and as far forward as could be done safely.
Is This Phil Burt ?
Why yes. Yes it is. th-cam.com/video/zJ8cTUbKypQ/w-d-xo.html@@abedfo88
He’s an idiot and also wrong
@@abedfo88 Yes
A couple of missed things:
1. UCI rules (saddle behind BB).
2. Crank length (longer - which definitely helps some people climb, requires a more open angle at the bottom of stroke).
Many pros use TT like position with the nose of the saddle dipping down, this allows then to ride on the nose without discomfort. Just my own observation.
People in my cycling club asked me how I was able to comfortably tolerate the amount of drop on my bike. The answer was quite easy: I’m pretty slender and flexible and most of all my reach isn’t absurd thanks to a proper fit
Thats interesting I can handle a lot of drop but I like a short reach. The big drop really takes weight of my hands, arms, shoulders and stops me getting tension headaches
James, at the TdF this year there was a Movistar rider in a breakaway with Fred Wright. I noted his leg was FAR too extended... I'm fairly confident his saddle is too high [but like to see you put a number on this] (there was also great, side-on tv coverage of him with crank at 6 o clock). id love you to do another of these but for more riders. Id also like to hear your thoughts on Nibalis shoulders (bar width) and all of Ryder Hesjedal. Cheers,
they change position on the saddle on the time because sitting constantly in the same place isn't ideal, i always change my position on the saddle and handlebar for comfort, when going up hills i always sit close to the nose, so i dont think theres anything wrong with them sitting on the nose, most of the time they sit in the right spot.
Your saddles too high
That was interesting and funny, as James mentioned being a pro can sometimes limit what equipment they can use. I would guess the bike set up would vary depending on whether it's a mountain or flat stage. I'm pretty sure Lawrence does have arms, and a bear on a bike like to see that.🤣
I think it would be funny to see bike fit critique of 80s and 90s riders. Those were something else.
Brilliant and fascinating insight. Thought provoking
Great video, thanks a lot!
Two questions: Isn't there this UCI Rule that says that the tip of the sattle mustn't go further than the bb? I found that it can be difficult to stick to that rule if you adopt a fairly aggressive position. That might be why pros slide forward. And would you generelly advise against reducing your setback to the point where the tip of the settle sticks over the bb?
it's 50mm behind the BB
Interesting topic and I'm pondering on how all of these things are generalized also:
My Achilles heel tendons are really short, so i cannot really have a proper flat foot and I have a relatively short back, or, long legs and arms.. at 180 cm, and my leg length alone I would be measured at a 58 or 56 frame, but then my stem would need to be almost negative length...
In other words: these are specific riders, and cases and they have specific builds and are in some pictures strained but would sit perfectly for 90% of the time until the final of the race when they try to produce more power.
now what this means for me personally: in terms of saddle height I could ride an XS frame with maximum seat extension and the reach would only be ten centimeters, would I ride an S-sized frame, the reach, height and drop would be okay with an 8 cm stem + 2cm spacers. Which frame would I best pick?
The length of toptubes at same framehight differ enormously on different models/brands. I always would take the whole frame geometry into account before buying. You only can compensate so much with stem length, saddle position and spacing your stemhight before you hamper your steering, your ride-feeling and even the looks of the bike. Also on a RR-bike too much (or even any) spacers underneath the stem not only don't look good but also are a security risk because more fork shaft is exposed and not supported by the expander plug (which goes hopefully all the way through the stem-clamp). I have a similar body shape like yours and I never regretted to buy a more compact frame (got to get used to the toe-overlap though :D). So if I were you I wouldn't fixate myself on a particular bike brand if they don't have a frame that fits your geometry!
Cheers and good luck!
Would like to see a Part II of this video where you fit check pros of yesterday year.
I agree Francis with all your observations in these photos I sometimes Scooch forward when I’m in the drops and maybe want to push the pedal a little bit harder and they get up on the nose sometimes but my question an issue is how do you factor in many of these saddles that are not flat and have that rise towards the back of the whale tail of the saddle I might say that also sometimes pushes you forward or forces you in the center or towards the nose I find the saddles that rise up a problem even though I ride with one I find it kind of messes up the position I want to be in I like your video you had recently of the most popular cutaway saddle that you recommend from Selle Italia
Nice watch, James.
My question would be more on: they tolerate extreme positions but are they getting any (power) benefit from them? I can't work out how a 152.7º knee angle and 33.7º feet angle will provide more power than a "regular" position.
I was watching the GCN video with Lemond's bike and I realized that it pretty much put the rider in a position in dance known as flat back--pretty much a plank from a bent waist. It requires enormous core and back strength to sustain, even for dancers who are just a wee bit bigger than a cyclist on top. Expecting the same function and mobility as a pro's body really should not be something regular consumers expect.
Was the 80s till mid 99s. If you raced, you pretty much rode like that when you put power out. If cruising, hands on tops and a 90degree angle like today on the hoods. We were young…. and absorbed it
Mate of mine is 77 and STILL rides like that-right back on the saddle, long reach, and a dead flat back-mind you he has been riding at a high level for over 60 years!
@@silentandproud882 a friend of mine put her back out from a dance class where she did flat back repeatedly. She wasn’t even thirty and couldn’t straighten up for weeks.
I think the best way to put it is; pros succeed in spite if their position, not because of it. Trying to imitate it is a recipe for discomfort.
More of this, please!
E.g. of other analysis to show: WvA (maybe one of the best fitted), Vdp & Valverde (too high), Yates (G. Thomas replica?), Kiesenhofer (using right leg/cleat shims now vs no shims in Tokyo).
Is James suggesting that with a proper fit you shouldn't have much if any saddle sticking out behind you? Can we use that as a guide in making adjustments at home?
Also take power delivery and aerodynamics into consideration. Studies show that 155 degree knee angle requires less oxygen at high power output. Reducing the frontal surface can further reduce 10-20 watts.
I’d like to read these “studies” The ones I’ve read have gaping holes in them
Idea for video: can you do one talking about the planter flection/foot angle. Is optimum saddle height is done with a relative flat foot loaded under power.
That was interesting. My first guess was „Specialized does not make a saddle narrow enough for Sagan“. Can you look at the positions of pro riders from past decades where everyone had a built to fit frame?
Would be interesting to compare with pro's bike fits from 30 years ago, when they all had multiple made to measure frames instead of standard fit they have to use in the carbon era.
In my diaries from the 80's, I have the various measurements from several pro fits at the time.. Looking back, I can't believe I actually rode and raced like that for so long, talk about absorbing punishment and asymmetry ... oof...and my bikes were made to measure as well..
Does pedal stroke play into seat height? Yes. Heal down, toe down dictator of seat height. Which one is better that’s my question? I think it’s just the way the hips and the feet and the ankles knees work symbiotic
and how the person produces power into the stroke, it seems to be different between each rider. So I think that’s an important point in fitting is each person might be different so don’t fit your bike to somebody else.
Please record James watching Annemik Van Vleuten at the Worlds ITT. He might have a seizure with how bad her fit was on the TT bike!
Her saddle was way of, must have lost a lot of power at the bottom of the pedal stroke.
@@henrikolsson6513 I have no idea how she does it, and I especially have no idea how she has been doing it for so long. Absolutely insane "position."
This is definitely my barometer for bike fit issues ✊🏾✊🏾✊🏾✊🏾✊🏾✊🏾✊🏾✊🏾✊🏾✊🏾
Can you guys show a few before and after bikefits that you've done? Maybe have James explaining why was done and why etc?
the selle italia slr's fit me very well, but the cut out version is too flexy, and the non cutout is very stiff with less padding. it fits me the best out of any othe rsaddle i'v used but these saddles also need sit bone relief areas too.
I had a fit recently. My fitter bemoaned the tendency toward much increased reach, particularly in gravel bikes. Bikes with 405+ mm reach even on a 56cm bike.
Why are companies doing this?
Like mtb, longer frame reach allows you to have a shorter stem which give you a more stable steering going through difficult terrains.
@@rli6951 I thought shorter stems result in twitchier steering? I guess there's a balance to be had for off road terrain?
@@Hook-N-Ladder mountain bikes and many of those gravel bikes with short stems are designed that way to put the wheel further out ahead of the rider for a given bike size, leading to a increase in the measurement known as front-center. This apparently increases the stability of the bike, especially on sketchy descents, as it puts less of the riders weight on the front wheel.
@@benbruening2165 Makes sense. So, longer reach and reduced stem so you have greater stability. Presumably, if you tried to accomplish this with a slacker head tube angle, then you'd run into steering issues because you'd need a longer stem, is that right?
Good points! I add my theory that with a longer frame you reduce toe overlap (wider tires than RR-bikes) and increase the space in the triangular section to fit luggage and bottles for bike packing. Unfortunately no gravel bike fits my body shape (short torso, long legs) so I ride a typical cyclocrosser with a compact framelength and horizontal toptube and live with the toe overlap.
im 13 seconds into the video, i'm so happy haha. thanks francis and james.
HAHA I love that dude. I be yelling at the tv about pro bikefits, especially when they are lined up on the trainers dude...
i run that (selle italia slr boost) saddle on all my bikes for that exact reason.. its narrow and short, so it touches the least amount of me
Pro's don't push 400 watts all day long. Most of the time unless the are Tim Declercq those particularly skilled in maximising the draft in the bunch can surf the wheels and avoid spending out too many watts until it's needed so there positions need to accommodate a range of needs. Some of the more upright positions short reach can be more uncomfortable with more weight on the saddle. The HTC rider (Rogers?) is obviously climbing - sat back in the saddle with hands further back in a more upright position - often a position riders will go to the tops of the bars in. On the flat I would suggest he will be rolled forward with hands further forward. While I agree moving all over the saddle is bad if you are constantly moving about, but having a number of positions available is not. During a race you need a variety of positions depending on how you are riding which effects where you sit on the saddle & the need for less or more reach. As a rider rolls forward to get in a more aero TT like position it is normal the sit further forward hence the design of saddles that take some of the short nose features of Tri saddles to road cycling - Specialized power, Pro Stealth etc - the old on the rivot position. As you roll forward this also creates a need for reasonable reach to flatted your back out and keep your elbows from interfering with your knees
This video is really good. Every time I see G going up a hill sitting on the nose on his saddle I go nuts
James said 138-142 with a flat foot at the bottom of the stroke. Nairo was at 134 but his foot was flexed, not flat. If his foot was flattened, the leg extension would be more, maybe right in the 138-142 range. But I am wondering why James didn't point that out?
I would like to start this off by first saying I race Professional Peloton in the United states and secondly that I truly believe this bike fitter is wrong in regards to long saddles. The Arione is popular without a doubt for the fact that you can easily change you position on the saddle. For road racing purposes, having multiple positions on the bike is extremely important.
Example 1, it appears that in the photo of Sagan where is sitting on the tip of his saddle, he is climbing. The reasoning for that is to adopt a more straight up position. When climbing aero doesn't play as big as role as on flats, we will sit in my experience as straight up a possible to make is easier the breathe. More oxygen=easier lactate break down, more watts. Also, its I've always found that i prefer to be more quad focused when im climbing as it can be such a violent effort sitting forward on the saddle helps with this.
Example 2, Thomas sitting on the tip of his saddle after a big crash. This one isn't as straight forward to explain and sort of requires you being there before. But basically if you have to continue on in a race after big crash your body is just tight. You end up sitting where ever on the saddle you body feels the least discomfort. In this case he had the least amount of pain sitting on the tip. For me Ive had the same situation before and was happy to have a long saddle to at least provide the option for me to find that sweet spot and carry on.
Example 3, long saddles give you the option for a when a is really going on a flat to scooch all the way to the back of the saddle and get as aero as possible. Generally these moments are short, max 20 minutes. so it doesn't really bother you to ride in your non traditional saddle position. You just want to be as low as possible and being able to slide back on the saddle really helps for that. it gives you space to tuck your elbows in and you head down more effectively.
Example 4, most of the time you spend riding or even racing a long saddle you spend in the middle or towards the wide part in the back. its the most comfortable and you set it there for the long haul. Basically 90% of your riding will be spent there just like you would. its basically just nice to have the option sit elsewhere as your body, the road and how the race is going demands.
I don't think anyone racing in even amateur level should follow bike fitting instructions that aim for comfort, but rather you choose a most aggressive and aerodynamic position you can handle for a given time. Going forward helps with power delivery, also if you are accustomed to high saddle, going lower might cause you knee problems, at least it does for me. I'm extremely flexible and can ride very low and I have problems with the integrated cockpits as they just don't low enough for me. I fully agree that sitting in front of the narrow saddle is not worth the consciences it might cause, even though there is basically no evidence on permanent damage on "male performance". If you tilt the saddle enough and use more power like in hard training or in a race, I at least don't have any issues, but in lower power training you might get problems for sure! One problem is that Pro's can't choose their saddles, so there might not be a wide nose saddle available from the sponsor.
Perhaps, but I reckon less than 1% of recreational cyclists race bikes.
Hey FC and James, this is as much an observation as it is a question but has the industry then got modern geo a little wrong for these bikes?
There is a tipping point before a rider will “want” to get further behind the BB. Are seat posts to slack on modern race bikes?
Cheers,
Ken
Brilliant as always. Thank you.
James should have an online setup and help Folks. Always informative and Entertaining!
interesting you point out that the pros' saddles are sticking out that much, I always thought I'm doing something wrong by sitting more back on the saddle and my butt being flush with the tail end of the saddle
On point, every 'critique' ... and then I raise (again) one question /hypotesis regarding Bike fit, ... and is true to say One person, an ordinary person even weekend warrior to hardcore seasoned riders and even pros can and 'must' have more than single one Bike Fit... why I ask or state these... well; could be proper to say there is the 'standard' bike fit the one that is ideal to a person no matter the estimated use of the bike, commuting or coffee rides, a bit of endurance on weekends, there is this 1st bike fit, then is a 2nd the RACE FIT tested and proven to optimize and stretch the limits of a Pro racer or any person that have been testing the gains and potential gains of a most extreme position in the bike For A Race or a very specific event. RACE FIT must not be the day by day FIT for a non pro cyclist right?
Just a thought; long stems on descents help stability (i say this from years of doing long fast mountain descents)? Maybe shorter top tubes? Also the old hip angle thing being more comfortable when further forward? Been riding and racing for 45 + years, so maybe easier, even old skinny contorted amateurs?
Pros use long stems because most get a frame one under recommended.
Why?
- Shorter wheel base = more responsive better cornering. Most pros dont need a longer frame or stem for stable descents.
- lower stem due to shorter head tube = more aero and lower COG
Pros have more flexible spines and are better adapted to shorter top tubes with lower stems.
Maybe, just maybe, pros gravitate to these extreme positions by degrees over time based on power and performance criteria rather than comfort. As they are very strong and highly functional, comfort is not high on their list of priorities.
Maddeningly many bikes come out of the box aimed at UCI cosplay rather than actual recreational riding. My biggest pet peeve is pre-cut steerer tubes that limit the ability to get anything approaching a relaxed fit. One thing I've noticed on the local group rides is how almost nobody every is in the drops, and when they are it looks awkward and painful. You could hack the drops off and almost nobody would notice.
Remember that pro riders, in order to generate all those watts, aren't putting as much pressure on the saddle as they are on the pedals. Thus, the saddle is more of a perch. If most "human" riders rode on the saddle nose, they would be rendered impotent in short order.
I think pros have different bike fits depending on the type of race. So you'll have different bike fit setup for sprinting, climbing and roubaix.