Critiquing Pro's Bike Fits
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ย. 2024
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Can we do Pro's that have nailed their fits! That would be good to see 😁
I get the vibe that would be a VERY short video 😂
Tao Geoghegan Hart I hear has the best fit in the pro peloton
They have another agenda then just be comfy on the bike. They wants to be as aero as possible. I would say Mathieu, Wout, Luke Plapp, Magnus Sheffield sits good on the bike.
Give us Remco!!!
I would love to see some analysis on Adam Blythe 🙏
You didn’t touch on the UCI rule that states the nose of the saddle cannot be closer than 1 inch behind the BB. I think the pro’s are just trying to get over the bottom bracket as much as they can for a more open hip angle/better power transfer while still being legal. There’s a reason why tri bike seats are slammed forward.
This. Pros are looking to put the power down, and therefore probably migrate forward. Also for the climber that was shown. It makes sense to migrate forward as you climb. This way you will keep your relative position to the BB.
I believe it is 5 cm, which would be about 2 inches
Exactly
For some reason saddles still have noses which make sitting on the wide part uncomfortable.
You'll notice that pros are either too far forward to get over the bottom bracket and open up the hips or too far back which forces them to overextend their legs.
There wouldn't be any such issues with noseless saddles
@@WesternUranus Noseless feels unstable if you rotate your hip very far, though
@@MrJaycobsen It is 5cm behind the vertical that dissects the bottom bracket! you need a jig basically to see it perfectly, that's what UCI is using! If you use 5 cm behind the bottom bracket, you can't ride!
G could use being closer to the ground with the amount he hits it.
Saddle fit for Roglic could do with this optimization as well
SAVAGE AS F**K
Worth it for Francis' closing statement 😁
4:01 woah!
The pro will look like a little bear on a bike....
Ive tried different stem lengths, saddle hight, saddles, saddle all the way forward and all the way backwards and everything in between. Different frame sizes, pro bike fit etc, You name it, I've tried it. I still gravitate towards the nose of the saddle no matter what. I will just adjust body position till im back to square one sitting on the front of the saddle. Ive come to the conclusion that's just the way it is for some people🤷♂️ I aslo dont have any pain or problems anywhere other than the general discomfort of sitting on a bike seat for 3-5hr.
regulations are a big part of these fit issues you mentioned, that 5cm rule is the culprit for riders riding so far forward on the saddle, I myself use a PRO Stealth (shorter nose) to be able to sit forward, before I sat close to the tip of the saddle and I could get more forward if allowed. Other big factor is: you´re only differentiating racing vs amateur, but more than that, the difference in terrain could be more significant and I think those extreme positions you found (e.g Quintana) are actually a feature and not a bug: they have a bike fit that allows the rider to get in a functional/efficient position for every terrain, keeping aero a biomechanics in mind. bike fitter should test the rider in more than 1 position, inclination and intensity
This is a testament to the incredible amount of suffering pros can tolerate
At least some of it is definitely self-inflicted. I can easily see some pros consciously trading the possibility of developing genital issues later for being 5% more aero efficient right now.
I had a bike fit with a fairly well known bike fitter who has 'fitted pro teams' and he put me in a position (using Retul) a bit like the Gee Thomas one and it resulted in massive issues. I always assumed he knew what he was doing and the position was right and I rode with that fit for a number of years. Since watching these videos I've followed James' bike fit advice and am back cycling pain free and loving cycling again ♥️
I've had the opposite experience. I was fitted by a person who RODE in the Tour de France and is now a bike fitter to some former WR holder. Was riding with a lot of pain in collegiate years (non retul system). About a year ago I found James's info and fixed most of my issues but wasn't perfect. Recently found a Retul fitter that uses it as a reference and then adjusts based on the rider's need and have been pain free since.
No two bodies are alike. On my mountain bike, I have no bike fit issues. On my road bike, I've discovered that my left leg needs a 12mm wedge.
@@youeatpoo1 Hes giving you only the framework in these videos. I'm sure an actual bike fit would go beyond that for specific needs.
@@yoavmiller216 you are bang on. James fits are a lot more in depth. I had one with him almost 18months and it was amazing. The info in videos he dose get you almost there with out the technology.
@@youeatpoo1 Really late to this conversation, but your last sentence is what separates good fitters from... average or lackluster fitters. Using these established systems isn't bad but relying completely on it to "fit" people is just not optimal. It can be used as a good baseline but fitters should always listen to their customers and not dismiss their feedback just because "the machine says this and that."
The character, experience, knowledge, and wisdom of your fitter as an ex-pro may also be very different from other ex-pros-turned-fitter. If they were properly fitted back then, are properly educated/trained, and/or know how to listen to feedback, they'd do well as fitters.
I’ve find James’ matter of fact constant state of annoyance to be addictive because it’s mixed with a health dose of indignation. Seriously, following this advice has led to me lowering my saddle, changing my saddle, getting shorter cranks and narrower bars. These changes have addressed ALL of the pain issues I was having. I worked at a bike shop and regularly did 100 mile rides with my saddle WAY too high. People are still putting their saddles too high, but hopefully, awareness is increasing. I am grateful for James and his enjoyable curmudgeonly rants.
Really wish we could have seen Wout's fit critiqued because I think his is one of the more correct in the current peloton. Not to mention he is about the most impressive atm.
THIS
Came here to say this.
Long story short: if you want to be a pro cyclist, stay as far away as possible from bike fitters! 😂
Would it be possible for James to show us how he chose his bike and how he has it set up. I would like to see how he applies everything he teaches to his personal bike fit.
Its double standard hypocritical ideas if you observe enough. He is a big proponent of slam that stem for average punters. If you think about it, pros can only do and handle it. But he also want his client to look like a pro rider. Pretty bs right? Theres a reason why bikes has spacers. Its not one size fits all.
@@PhiyackYuh The reason why your bike has spacers is that you bought a geometry that doesn't fit you.
@@PhiyackYuh Well that's a stupid comment from someone who doesn't listen to him enough. While he openly admits that he prefers slamming stems, he won't do it if the client isn't comfortable with or capable of the position and if it doesn't fit the purpose of the bike fit.
@@PhiyackYuh Such things are irrelevant when his main focus is the angle of leg extension and the correct angle of the ankle at the bottom of the stroke whilst not overreaching.
He has been saying this consistently for years - watch a few more of his videos and this concept might just sink in.
I wanna see a comparison of Lachlan Morton’s position for road race vs his ultra distance setup. I assume he should have a more comfortable setup for those adventures
and the Bike fit benefits of birkenstocks!
I've theorized an optimal saddle hight and position for climbing is not necessarily an optimal position for sprinting, and if Sagan has to chose one, he is making a conscious decision to adjust position for on a climb to allow less fatigue on the leg position during a sprint which is his primary role 🤔🤷
Definitely a factor imo - I would run a completely different position if I were racing compared to regular riding.
(But not an outrageously high saddle height, that would be problematic for me)
@@Cade_Media Yes, I can imagine getting shit from James for your saddle height would be problematic.
And I am pretty sure... Sagan is climbing there but the picture is rotated to 'horizontal'. He's sitting like this on saddle because he is balancing the center of his weight to the front to climb easier.
@@Cade_Media So if you racing your saddle height is higher, than the regular riding setup?
"If you're not a pro, you shouldn't be buying a pro's bike." Nailed it!
Adam Blythe once said the idea of staying in the same position on a saddle would be horrendous. the amount of hours the pros ride every week and the time they spend in the red zone must be a factor in how much they move around the saddle during races. could it be that these photos are not representative of the total amount of time they spend in the saddle?
He also has a stupid position
I would love to see a comparison of the pro riders positions in the 70's and 80's to the current position of pro riders.
Great video. I enjoy seeing professionals help non pro riders get the right fit, and remove the idea that pro riders have the most optimal position for all riders.
I second that. Would even want to see a take on the development of race positions. I recently seen TdF footage and docus from the 30's-50's and compared to today the positions on the bikes were extremely odd.
I most certainly echo this ask…I coaches back in 60s had me in totally different position, as was bike geometry..and style of pedalling
@@audiolatroushearetic1822 I noticed in the late 80's, the pro riders did not reach for the hoods until they were out of the saddle on a climb. Riders would primarily hold the top of the bars when seated. Of course, the brake levers were positioned lower on the front of the handlebars.
Who gives a shit about their comfort… as long as they don’t get hurt you make sure you put them in the most aero position possible and push them to have muscles adapt. I am hopping you doing this piece to attract views rather than actually giving a professional overview of this. If in fact you actually believe in what you saying, here is a little inside in what happens in pro peloton… you
you make sure they adapt so they can help the GC rider. Judging these guys how they ride a bike is like judging Messi how to handle the ball… with that being said you do a bike fit and you hope you stick to it. After one ride they will go right back to where they want to be. Saddle has to be high, handlebar bas to be slammed, that’s how you get the best aero… comfort, who gives a shit about comfort, you learn how to be comfortable on the wold tour. That’s it.
GC riders get more personal fit because the sponsors have them go through bike testing during bike development.
Your buddy said best, “ pro riders can tolerate shitty bike fits”….
I challenge anyone to ride their bike for 5 hours a day every day after 30 days whatever bike fit you give them would have to be completely adjusted.
The Ineos riders who James has fitted seem to care.
@@Cade_Media his name is Tao. Where is he now…. helping Geraint?!
@@Cade_Media Cyclefit had also looked at him
I’m 54 and looking back it amazes me the different bike sizes I rode while roughly adjusting the saddle height to a “that’ll do” position 🤣 but when I was 18 I was 9 stone and made of elastic bands 🤣 at 54 great care is now taken with fit and position otherwise I’d be in big trouble 🙄
Interesting observations about the reach and sprinting. I’m no pro but I have noticed problems after having a bike fit. My reach was shortened to help with poor hip flexibility but now on hard out of saddle efforts I’ll hit my knees on the bars which is inconvenient!
Just incorporate some hip flexibility exercises and you'll be good after a while. Was having the same issue.
You have captured most of them when they are potting down a lot of watts. When I take a huge poll in the front I’m sliding forward on the saddle, I’m not sitting like that all the time. Don’t think G is sitting like that when his not putting down the hammer. That’s the good thing when using a long saddle that you can slide forward and putting down some more watt.
I think its important to consider tiredness aswell. Once your tired, you might do alot of wierd stuff to compensate for anything, like sitting on the nose of the saddle, but ofc, it might mean it was wrong to begin with
Remember that pro riders, in order to generate all those watts, aren't putting as much pressure on the saddle as they are on the pedals. Thus, the saddle is more of a perch. If most "human" riders rode on the saddle nose, they would be rendered impotent in short order.
Doesn't the reach shorten when climbing? So for a climber like Nairo maybe he wants more optimal position on steep grades and is fine having a bit more reach on the flats?
dunno what you mean, but that was an exceptionally strained image of Nairo, near the end of a race: he's trying to produce more power than would be sustainable for an extended amount of time. In other words not really representable for +80% of his ride.
@@ivarbrouwer197 I mean the steeper a hill the shorter the effective reach of your bike gets (it essentially raises your handlebars respective to your seat). So if he was optimizing for climbing he might have a slightly longer reach which would effectively shorten on steep grades to his desired position. Hard to say from a photo obviously. He's also tiny and may already be on the smallest bike they have.
Big fan of Selle smp saddles, when set up properly no sliding back or forth and very comfortable.
Please record James watching Annemik Van Vleuten at the Worlds ITT. He might have a seizure with how bad her fit was on the TT bike!
Her saddle was way of, must have lost a lot of power at the bottom of the pedal stroke.
@@henrikolsson6513 I have no idea how she does it, and I especially have no idea how she has been doing it for so long. Absolutely insane "position."
People say cleats slammed back but it felt like peg legs so I went forward a bit and much better balance and more calf action.
Got interested on all of this bike fitting thing last June after having chronic lower back and right glute pain. So I binge watch many videos on this channel. So I decided to do DIY bike fit and based on my own assessment the solution I got is to change my stem length stem to 120mm -10 with one tiny spacer (from 100mm -7 no spacer) and to move the cleats as far back as possible. In the first few days my back still hurts, but after 2 long rides (153 and 100km) my issues are gone! I also feel like I can put a lot power and maintain a higher ave speed in flats and I'm less tired during long climbs. And this September I'm able to ride 1,000km (and counting) no aching bidy part whatsoever and I feel that I became stronger riding my bike! Thanks for the ideas and inspiration!
I've noticed that pro riders today have the saddles REALLY high, compared to pros several years ago. I suspect they are using frames on the shorter side, which, in combination with a slammed stem, allows them to sit really low, i.e., more aerodynamic.
its faster to ride on a bike thats a little small for you
Maybe, just maybe, pros gravitate to these extreme positions by degrees over time based on power and performance criteria rather than comfort. As they are very strong and highly functional, comfort is not high on their list of priorities.
My new fav cycling vid. Simply spitting facts for 17 minutes straight. James is a legend at what he does.
Sorry, the problem with photos to judge the saddle hight is the distortion of wide angle lenses. Cyclists often pass right in front of your nose, a normal lens (50 mm in 35mm film) would be too long.
It seems,
-Sagan is climbing as a sprinter, therefore sitting in front of his saddle
-Thomas had clearly a crash (look at his ripped jersey and his forearm) possible sitting on the front his saddle to counter some of the pain
-Adam @ 11:36 is clearly sitting on a stationary bike, mimiking a TT warmup, look at the seatpost.
As the livelihood of a pro depends on a healthy contact with the saddle, I can't agree with the general opinion that they are more willing to suffer than us normal people.
-Armstrong was called Mr. millimeter because of his own particulars in saddle hight.
-A masseuse discovered late in the career of Ullrich, that one of his legs was slightly shorter than the other.
I don't mean any disrespect...
What's the measuring tool used?
Great video, thanks a lot!
Two questions: Isn't there this UCI Rule that says that the tip of the sattle mustn't go further than the bb? I found that it can be difficult to stick to that rule if you adopt a fairly aggressive position. That might be why pros slide forward. And would you generelly advise against reducing your setback to the point where the tip of the settle sticks over the bb?
it's 50mm behind the BB
Might make Liam and Jamie go see James...
DO IT
That was interesting and funny, as James mentioned being a pro can sometimes limit what equipment they can use. I would guess the bike set up would vary depending on whether it's a mountain or flat stage. I'm pretty sure Lawrence does have arms, and a bear on a bike like to see that.🤣
I would love, I mean LOVE if you did a critique of historically great riders' positions. Merckx, Lemond, Fignon, Coppi, Anquetil. Fascinating
Hinault was legendary for the precision of his fit, although nothing really like the modern fit of today, both are efficient in their own ways
Aha so Nairo had to take Tramadol due to his poor position! Instant UCI waiver 🤣🤪👍Maybe James can be an expert witness in his defense 😂
We want more of this, please! 🍿
Pros sit more on the nose of the saddle, because the uci has imposed restrictions on how far forward to nose of the saddle can be in relation to the BB, but being more over the BB enables you to use the quads more. So it is a uci règlement issue rather than a bike fit issue, probably.
At 8:30, James lost me.
Nairo is a legit Green Jersey contender.
How can James risk his reputation by saying that Nairo is not a sprinter?
At 10:36, I'd argue the position is correct, but the bike is wrong. He's trying to emulate a tri-bike position (typically more like an 80D STA relative to 73D), effectively rotating his entire body clockwise around the bottom bracket. This gives a flatter torso and a more aerodynamic frontal shape. For an amateur rider, it'd be a disaster, but for a lightweight pro with 400W FTP and the upper back and neck flexibility to keep their head up, having his weight that far forward could be both efficient and perhaps even appropriate as a counterbalance to his power.
This gives great perspective on my own bike position thanks so much for this vid
I think the best way to put it is; pros succeed in spite if their position, not because of it. Trying to imitate it is a recipe for discomfort.
Mr. Thomas is correct 🚲👊🏼 PLUS…he has his tattoo of riding across southern America (in the heat!!! - hence, le Tat!, right!?) and hrs giving you the real cycling scoop! #loweryoursaddle #shortenyourreach
A couple of missed things:
1. UCI rules (saddle behind BB).
2. Crank length (longer - which definitely helps some people climb, requires a more open angle at the bottom of stroke).
Saddle width has a major factor on were you sit , I have had saddle positions 1.5 cm forward and back from my current position and I still only use 3/4 of the saddle. Also you do find riders and especially the pros who move around on the saddle depending on the terrain or current muscle fatigue
I'm on a tt bike so I move the saddle maxed out to the front and sadly still wish it was more forward. Gonna have to buy a short stem to compensate
advantages of not sitting too high:
- less CSA drag
- lower COG which improves handling
- less Lx flexion (increased flexion can kink illiac arteries and reduce blood flow to lower limbs, and cause arterial endofibrosis.
- less listing and pelvic lateral rocking, which facilitates more equal power generation between left and right lower limbs.
- more engagement of hamstrings, which increases time to fatigue of quads.
- cog closer to vertical over bottom bracket on flats and climbs, which allows smoother transition from quads to hams engagement (down stroke and rear stroke), and less need for sitting on nose.
I love the conclusion: Pro Cyclist Have Shit Bike Fit Positions. I'm not a pro, but I've made over a dozen small increment changes to my bike. It's mainly for comfort, power, and aero. The saddle being in your back door doesn't look right! Lol
The majority of these pros that are over extending their reach have,I would suspect,have been put in that position via an aerodynamicist which is fine,but surely,this then throws down the toilet,the fit to the bike.Sagan uses a 140mm stem on his bike.....is this over excessive?.....more than likely,but then I am no expert.
"Jackie Weaver you have no jurisdiction" here...... absolutely non... go on James lad...
Hopeful we get a pro fitted soon, would be interesting how they would react to a much comfortable position. Great video and love the ending lol!
take picture of sagan going up, winging after falling?? there video of them on the bike and you will see that they are in a very good position. I am pretty sure that the people this guy fits on their bike are pretty ugly when it comes to going 100%. While riding pro level you are looking to preserve some part of the muscle, like using more of the glut most of the time. Setback helps for that a lot, in consequence when you need more power to action the Quadri, you are going to use the nose. That's pretty normal.
Remembering that the goal of bike fitting is feeling comfortable and getting more performance. Sagan is like 35K KM per year on his bike and for performance.... Also, he is specialized sponsored, thus for sure he met the best bike fitter of the planet.
gotta' remember though too, that a position that is ideal for say, climbing (or a fitting studio), isn't necessarily ideal for say, descending. maybe some of these noted so-called positions with 'excess reach', for example, are just positions that allow these riders to get long and low for fast descending. a bike with a more cramped reach will often feel a bit sketchier at high speeds than one that is nice and 'long', at least that's my consistent impression.
this dude is obviously legit, but I'm surprised there's no mention of the above.
I would like to start this off by first saying I race Professional Peloton in the United states and secondly that I truly believe this bike fitter is wrong in regards to long saddles. The Arione is popular without a doubt for the fact that you can easily change you position on the saddle. For road racing purposes, having multiple positions on the bike is extremely important.
Example 1, it appears that in the photo of Sagan where is sitting on the tip of his saddle, he is climbing. The reasoning for that is to adopt a more straight up position. When climbing aero doesn't play as big as role as on flats, we will sit in my experience as straight up a possible to make is easier the breathe. More oxygen=easier lactate break down, more watts. Also, its I've always found that i prefer to be more quad focused when im climbing as it can be such a violent effort sitting forward on the saddle helps with this.
Example 2, Thomas sitting on the tip of his saddle after a big crash. This one isn't as straight forward to explain and sort of requires you being there before. But basically if you have to continue on in a race after big crash your body is just tight. You end up sitting where ever on the saddle you body feels the least discomfort. In this case he had the least amount of pain sitting on the tip. For me Ive had the same situation before and was happy to have a long saddle to at least provide the option for me to find that sweet spot and carry on.
Example 3, long saddles give you the option for a when a is really going on a flat to scooch all the way to the back of the saddle and get as aero as possible. Generally these moments are short, max 20 minutes. so it doesn't really bother you to ride in your non traditional saddle position. You just want to be as low as possible and being able to slide back on the saddle really helps for that. it gives you space to tuck your elbows in and you head down more effectively.
Example 4, most of the time you spend riding or even racing a long saddle you spend in the middle or towards the wide part in the back. its the most comfortable and you set it there for the long haul. Basically 90% of your riding will be spent there just like you would. its basically just nice to have the option sit elsewhere as your body, the road and how the race is going demands.
Not the first time I've seen the comments / suggestion that pros all sit too far forward on their saddles and have too much reach. I won't argue that some of the saddles look awfully high. But what also occurs to me is that they like the more aggressive, further forward on the bike position. Perhaps was they really need is the saddle just brought forward further? Or perhaps that would then interfere with getting their weight back on the bike enough to descend?
@@andrewschietzsch5398 The kind of soft chuckle to oneself that hurts a little inside...
Cyclefit and James claim to have fitted Tao......who actually does? And who got it right? Both have pictures of. But why did he need to go to both?
Pro's don't push 400 watts all day long. Most of the time unless the are Tim Declercq those particularly skilled in maximising the draft in the bunch can surf the wheels and avoid spending out too many watts until it's needed so there positions need to accommodate a range of needs. Some of the more upright positions short reach can be more uncomfortable with more weight on the saddle. The HTC rider (Rogers?) is obviously climbing - sat back in the saddle with hands further back in a more upright position - often a position riders will go to the tops of the bars in. On the flat I would suggest he will be rolled forward with hands further forward. While I agree moving all over the saddle is bad if you are constantly moving about, but having a number of positions available is not. During a race you need a variety of positions depending on how you are riding which effects where you sit on the saddle & the need for less or more reach. As a rider rolls forward to get in a more aero TT like position it is normal the sit further forward hence the design of saddles that take some of the short nose features of Tri saddles to road cycling - Specialized power, Pro Stealth etc - the old on the rivot position. As you roll forward this also creates a need for reasonable reach to flatted your back out and keep your elbows from interfering with your knees
I think this guy looks at bike fitting purely from a comfort view point, which is great for old people who just ride as a midlife crisis which is probably most of his clients. But for people interested in actual performance he seems not great.
The missing link is the stem length its ridiculous and not necessary to have more than 50mm which most these riders look about 70mm wanting to get down low making already to big sized frame in reach set even further they would need a negative 25deg seatpost haha!
Ok, so what is the actual reason behind it? Because I find it hard to believe that Jumbo Visma or Movistar teams have no physiotherapists and a pro bike fitting. They have all that, and team of 20 other specialists, including gypsy fortune-tellers - thats how high the stakes are for them. So there must be some reason for them being fit that way to their bikes.
My question would be more on: they tolerate extreme positions but are they getting any (power) benefit from them? I can't work out how a 152.7º knee angle and 33.7º feet angle will provide more power than a "regular" position.
I am decently fit and not carrying excess weight and I’m 10kg heavier than a pro cyclist and I’m sure my legs are lighter so it’s going to be more like 12+ kg heavier in the torso which is a lot more weight to maintain in a position and I produce significantly less power making it even more difficult. James really does speak the truth. Why copy the position of an athlete who’s body is completely different to yours?
16:34 That’s *DEEP* insight. I’ll be sitting on that for a while. “Pro cyclists are pros” is way over my head
I had a fit recently. My fitter bemoaned the tendency toward much increased reach, particularly in gravel bikes. Bikes with 405+ mm reach even on a 56cm bike.
Why are companies doing this?
Like mtb, longer frame reach allows you to have a shorter stem which give you a more stable steering going through difficult terrains.
@@rli6951 I thought shorter stems result in twitchier steering? I guess there's a balance to be had for off road terrain?
@@Hook-N-Ladder mountain bikes and many of those gravel bikes with short stems are designed that way to put the wheel further out ahead of the rider for a given bike size, leading to a increase in the measurement known as front-center. This apparently increases the stability of the bike, especially on sketchy descents, as it puts less of the riders weight on the front wheel.
@@benbruening2165 Makes sense. So, longer reach and reduced stem so you have greater stability. Presumably, if you tried to accomplish this with a slacker head tube angle, then you'd run into steering issues because you'd need a longer stem, is that right?
Good points! I add my theory that with a longer frame you reduce toe overlap (wider tires than RR-bikes) and increase the space in the triangular section to fit luggage and bottles for bike packing. Unfortunately no gravel bike fits my body shape (short torso, long legs) so I ride a typical cyclocrosser with a compact framelength and horizontal toptube and live with the toe overlap.
'I don't mean any disrespect or offence, but...!' 🤣
Interesting topic and I'm pondering on how all of these things are generalized also:
My Achilles heel tendons are really short, so i cannot really have a proper flat foot and I have a relatively short back, or, long legs and arms.. at 180 cm, and my leg length alone I would be measured at a 58 or 56 frame, but then my stem would need to be almost negative length...
In other words: these are specific riders, and cases and they have specific builds and are in some pictures strained but would sit perfectly for 90% of the time until the final of the race when they try to produce more power.
now what this means for me personally: in terms of saddle height I could ride an XS frame with maximum seat extension and the reach would only be ten centimeters, would I ride an S-sized frame, the reach, height and drop would be okay with an 8 cm stem + 2cm spacers. Which frame would I best pick?
The length of toptubes at same framehight differ enormously on different models/brands. I always would take the whole frame geometry into account before buying. You only can compensate so much with stem length, saddle position and spacing your stemhight before you hamper your steering, your ride-feeling and even the looks of the bike. Also on a RR-bike too much (or even any) spacers underneath the stem not only don't look good but also are a security risk because more fork shaft is exposed and not supported by the expander plug (which goes hopefully all the way through the stem-clamp). I have a similar body shape like yours and I never regretted to buy a more compact frame (got to get used to the toe-overlap though :D). So if I were you I wouldn't fixate myself on a particular bike brand if they don't have a frame that fits your geometry!
Cheers and good luck!
Even if you're a pro, enduring dysfunction in the saddle must have a negative impact on performance.
I can't believe James didn't mention how many of the pros are also rolling their wrists on the bars: get a narrower bar!
Most of these photos were when the riders are doing big efforts I think. Maybe there is something in their bikefits that makes them more comfortable when doddling around in the peleton? Which is probably the most of their time spent. Then when the going gets tough, it's shorter and they are producing a lot of watts so you're barely even seated anyway.
I think most naturally move forward when working hard so yes these arnt the best photos but for me this is where bike fits start to fall down a little as you’re not being tested at fatigue.
I think it would be funny to see bike fit critique of 80s and 90s riders. Those were something else.
If you low down the saddle, unfortunately you probably will have to change your cranck... It's endless. We should be able to enter our entire mesures to manufacturer before to buy a bike so that all the elements fit you at the end.
Pros have terrible bike fits. Tt pros have actual correct bike fits.
Don't forget that pros screw up all the time. Tony Martin once put sandpaper in the saddle and bled his ass out
Most touring pros set their seats too low, either for more aero or for more pedal touch in exchange for wasted inefficient pedalling energy
I'm surprised Peter Sagan's hand position wasn't mentioned-with his wrists bent forward onto the hoods
oooh man this is a great upload!!!!!! i'm 20k into carbon bikes, my back still hurts. in my case it had nothing to do withe the bike, but more with my lame muscle mass. the solution was off the bike.
Hey FC and James, this is as much an observation as it is a question but has the industry then got modern geo a little wrong for these bikes?
There is a tipping point before a rider will “want” to get further behind the BB. Are seat posts to slack on modern race bikes?
Cheers,
Ken
Is James suggesting that with a proper fit you shouldn't have much if any saddle sticking out behind you? Can we use that as a guide in making adjustments at home?
SO, if those pros who are sitted and fitted poorly go to him, he'd make their positions ideal for the fitter, and they'd make less power. So bike fits are for regular foks, not pros.
Does pedal stroke play into seat height? Yes. Heal down, toe down dictator of seat height. Which one is better that’s my question? I think it’s just the way the hips and the feet and the ankles knees work symbiotic
and how the person produces power into the stroke, it seems to be different between each rider. So I think that’s an important point in fitting is each person might be different so don’t fit your bike to somebody else.
This is an annoying way to work out that the £3k bike I just bought is probably a bit big
If sitting on the front part of the saddle increases the revolutions by 15-20 per minute while maintaining the same watts or increases the power in watts, then if you are a professional, this benefit will be superior to the aesthetic sitting.
you know there's a UCI rule on how close the tip of the saddle nose can be positioned behind the bottom bracket? It might be the reason why many pro's sit on the tip of the nose of their bikes, because the saddle is already positioned at the limit?
If only Sagan had his bike set up right, think of what he would have been able to accomplish, right?
Biggest factor to keep in mind is the competition I think. Pros are concerned with winning, Health comes at a second best purely by nature of it being necessary to win - you can't win if you're too injured to compete - and if they could ride the bike dead they would. Ultimately, they're taking everything to extremes at the sacrifice of comfort, and such. A perfect fit might make the bike more comfortable and be better for your body and such - but it may not be optimal for a flat-out sprint. Only one of those things is going to give you a realistic edge in the last 300m.
These guys routinely risk severe injuries and even death in the pursuit of a coloured jersey. But would you descend 10km at 80kph or more? It's the same thing. Don't get your bike set up like a pro, because your goals are different. We all ride for fun, even if sometimes the fun is competition. These guys, they might have fun occasionally, but that is never why they clip-in to the pedals.
These pro's ride hours daily on their bikes, if they are getting it wrong they would not be able to ride the hours they do, and they would not be professional. Hendricks sucked at how he held his guitar.
I would think that pros are fitted to produce max power for their type of riding?
According to Adam Hansen, he fits himself and others partly based on getting a stable pelvis and limiting the dead center at the bottom of the stroke aided by Leomo software. That plantarflexion looks extreme, though, and having looked at some photos on his channel he sits very far forward, rides alot on the tops rather than hoods and can't bend his elbows in the drops, because his handlebars are down at his wheel.
I can't speak for anyone else's saddle height, but I find that I underextend my leg when at the 144/36 degree knee angle I was fitted at and get a bit too much knee to gut and hip impingement even though I'm quite slim(long legs, rotated pelvis and short torso). This could be down to an uneven saddle engagement, however... have yet to find a position where my right sitbone feels planted and raising the bars just makes me push away from them especially in an aero position.
Haven't pros figured out that aerodynamics are crucial to winning races? I'd think that is the main reason a lot of them are in those long positions, because it helps them get into a more aero position, right?
Any photo of G on his main bike? The photo used was after a crash. I wonder if the spare bike isn’t setup properly
When measuring leg angle, I suspect the perspective of the photo has an affect on the measured angle. James should investigate
I never knew pro riders' set ups were shyite
Just to ask are some of the pros leaving some of there power and stamina on the road due to a bad bike fit 🤔 marginal gains are everything especially in the pro ranks
Did James watch the bike fit Chris Froome had when he had first recovered from his huge crash?
All things bike fit coming from James is gold. I went from a 155mm SLR to the S3 SLR after seeing him mention most riders are going way too wide. Made every bit of difference!
Any thoughts on the motivation behind having the saddle noticeably higher than optimal?
Would be interesting to compare with pro's bike fits from 30 years ago, when they all had multiple made to measure frames instead of standard fit they have to use in the carbon era.
In my diaries from the 80's, I have the various measurements from several pro fits at the time.. Looking back, I can't believe I actually rode and raced like that for so long, talk about absorbing punishment and asymmetry ... oof...and my bikes were made to measure as well..
Note for Geraint Thomas that the team bike fitter when it was called SKY advocated that a rider should have the seat as high and as far forward as could be done safely.
Is This Phil Burt ?
Why yes. Yes it is. th-cam.com/video/zJ8cTUbKypQ/w-d-xo.html@@abedfo88
He’s an idiot and also wrong
@@abedfo88 Yes
Just one thought the picture of G clearly shows he's crashed Again! are you sure he is on his bike and not a team mates that he is making it work?
Coming here to say look at Van Vleuten's crash recently. I feel like her seat was way to high and caused that crash.
i run that (selle italia slr boost) saddle on all my bikes for that exact reason.. its narrow and short, so it touches the least amount of me
Aren't those just shots of riders giving it some? Isn't it normal to go forwards on the saddle in those circumstances?