Repertoire: The IDEAL Sibelius Symphony Cycle
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- Here it is! My perfect Sibelius cycle assembled from all of the available performances of all NINE Sibelius symphonies. In this particular survey, you'll find recordings by Berglund, Segerstam, Bernstein, Szell, Gibson, Maazel, Davis, Järvi, and Blomstedt. Go ahead--show me a better list!
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Last night I was watching one of your videos. My adult daughter passed by and ask me what I was watching. ‘It’s my friend David, I replied. ‘ Your friend? ‘We’ll, he doesn’t know he’s my friend. But he is. David, you have a friend in Montreal. My wife better understand my love for music thanks to your talks...
Give my best to your daughter! I'm honored.
Your friend,
Dave
I recently discovered Sibelius with his violin concerto (performed by the Radio France's Philarmonic Orchestra with Hilary Hahn), and immediately fell in love. I have listened again and again many of his pieces, and I have been searching for the best perfomances of his incredible music. TH-cam must have understood my passion, your video appeared in my suggestions, and I'm so glad ! Thank you for your passion and knowledge !
My pleasure. Please enjoy!
Great list, and it introduced me to gibson, who I didn't even know. Great performance. I fell in love with sibelius through the third, and it's my favorite. My choice for it is Sanderling. The shortest and most upbeat second movement I've heard, and I'm crazy about this movement. For me it's the single most beautiful piece of music I've heard from Sibelius
Thank you Mr. Hurwitz for another eye opening talk on Sibelius. I have been finally getting acquainted with his symphonies after years of waiting and also I'm anticipating a talk on the best cycle so I wanted to get started. Wow, like Carl Nielsen, this has been a revelation!! Thank you!!
Just created my spotify playlist exactly to your ideal cycle. The segerstam and Blomstedt cycles Sound immensely exciting for newer interpretations. I have lived for over 30 years with the Jarvi Bis and Abravanal Utah cycles. Cant say I gravitated towards the other modern set of Vanska, didnt feel it. Thanks again for a great channel.
Love this new format, it would be great to see this more.
This is a great list. I have the Berglund Bournemouth , Vanska Lahti and Davis Boston cycles on disc.
But I’ve just playlisted this ideal cycle on Spotify and it will accompany me in the car and the office this week.
Thanks for sharing!
Rarely if ever does a cycle played by one performer/ensemble/orchestra/conductor outclass an assortment of individual performances, especially of works by major composers or composers whose styles evolved over time. It's even better to go with several interpretively contrasting performances of the same piece. The main attraction of a boxed-set cycle is lower cost per disc.
Barbirolli's Readers Digest No. 2 with the Royal Philharmonic has been reissued on Testament, where that studio recording is coupled with a live recording of Symphony 5 with the Halle.
Yes, thanks for reminding me.
This is the type of ideal cycle assembly that I've been hoping you would undertake, and I'm very much looking forward to your ideal cycle choices for works of other composers. I generally agree with your extremely judicious choices but my ideal cycle without artist repetition would look like this:
Kullervo - Spano
Lemminkainen - Segerstam
Sym 1 - Blomstedt
Sym 2 - Szell
Sym 3 - Kamu (DG)
Sym 4 - Karajan (DG)
Sym 5 - Davis/BSO
Sym 6 - Bernstein
Sym 7 - Maazel
My true first choice for Kullervo is actually Segerstam but I want to follow protocol for the total list, Likewise, for the fifth symphony I have a very slight preference for Bernstein/NYPO,but Davis is terrific.
Very much enjoyed this talk.
BTW the Davis/LSO Sibelius CD's (RCA) are great coasters.
Great review! I love that you give Lemminkainen and Kullervo the same stature as the numbered symphonies.
When you mentioned George Szell I said to myself "Oh cool." I bought his Concertgebouw recording of the 2nd back in the early 1980s when it was issued as part of the Great Composers series. I was a teenager and I had never heard of Sibelius (my parents listened to Beethoven and Tchaikovsky) or George Szell and I didn't know what a concertgebouw was. But it had a nice picture of a lake and some trees (like many many Sibelius albums do) and it came with a nice booklet about the composer. So I figured hey, why not. I went home and put it on the record player. I was hooked from the first few bars. He's been my favorite composer from that moment on. I've heard many versions of the work since, but I never heard one I liked as much. I thought it was just me being sentimental about my first Sibelius album. I didn't know it was held in high regard or anything.
When I was a college student in Chicago 1965-1969, Richard Freed, a reviewer for Stereo Review, hosted a classical music program for WFMT. He would play entire works along with commentary. I still remember his review of the Bernstein Sibelius box of LP's. He prefaced the Symphony #3 by apologizing for the speed at which Bernstein performed the work. I compared Gibson's times (9:31, 8:30, 8:01) with Bernstein's (10:00, 8:31, 8:00). I still love the third, especially the pizzicato in the second movement.
Got to hear Vänskä conduct Sibelius 1 & 3 with the Minnesota Orchestra live (as well as Hilary Hahn on the VC), and it was all glorious. I agree that his 3rd is underrated, it's one of my favorites. I'm not so familiar with the various recordings so can't provide my own "cycle".
I love the Sixth. I find it very satisfying, especially the endings! I am happy with any Karajan recording (except the 2nd, which is terrible, as you have said) and the fine BSO Davis set (The BSO in the 70s was a Golden Age). I agree with how younger conductors can't seem to figure out the 2nd... it's too heroic, too romantic, and too idealistic for them. The tempi some of them choose for the Finale make me feel almost as if they are embarrassed by the music and are trying to get though it as quickly as possible! Karajan, did the opposite there, sooo sloowwww. zzzzzz. I will enjoy exploring your selections! Thank you.
I agree about younger conductors. Some of them seem to have to "rediscover" where there is nothing to rediscover; in consequence, producing a recording that is not a patch on older, established recordings. I'm not saying this is ALWAYS the case! Far from it, but it does happen.
The last live music I heard was here in Tokyo, Sibelius 2, which was a routine non-event as far as I could see.
It's just so tough to beat Blomstedt. I've listened to this cycle at least 30 times and I still find it remarkable.
My first exposure to live orchestra was in the 1990's at Davies Hall with Blomstedt conducting.
Lucky you!
This is the kind of pastime I adore: making lists of favorites for myself and following strict rules in their preparation, however self-imposed they may be. I'm in the middle of creating my personal Beethoven symphony playlist, with, again, no conductor duplicates. Are you considering one of those?
Regardless, here's my contribution to the Sibelius sweepstakes.
Kullervo - Robert Spano -- Atlanta Symphony
Lemminkainen - Hannu Linto -- Finnish Radio Symphony
Sym 1 - Lorin Maazel -- Wiener Philharmoniker
Sym 2 - Paul Paray -- Detroit Symphony
Sym 3 - Olli Mustonen -- Helsinki Festival Orchestra
Sym 4 - Eugene Ormandy -- Philadelphia
Sym 5 - Leif Segerstam -- Helsinki Philharmonic Orchestra
Sym 6 - Okko Kamu -- Lahti Symphony
Sym 7 - Osmo Vanska -- Lahti Symphony (including two alternate endings)
Eventually...
I am Dutch and now live in Holland. I love all his symphonies, including Kullervo and Lemminkinen. I also bought a book by Simon Vestdijk, a Dutch classical Author, hardly known outside the Netherlands, who wrote a tretise about his Symphonies. His favourite was number 5. Well, mine are, in sequence, 2, 3, 4, 5, 1, 6 and 7.
Thanks for your comments. Stay tuned: my video on No. 5 runs tomorrow.
I have great memories of driving the length of Finland about 15 years ago, and on the day that I visited Sibelius' house, having the Sibelius 3rd on repeat. It was probably the Vanska/Minnesota recording as my Colin Davis set was among 500 CDs I had stolen in a house burglary some years before.
I don't think Vanska/Minnesota existed 15 years ago.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Oops. Don't know why I wrote Minnesota. I meant Lahti: I passed through that town after visiting Ainola.
Lovely to hear praise of the RSNO horns in Sibelius 3; the 1st horn would be the late Maurice Temple - actually a Mancunian but made his career in Glasgow where I was lucky to work with him at the end of his playing career (although he went on teaching right up to his death a couple of years ago); the 4th horn would be the late Charles Floyd - a real Glaswegian who was quite happy to play rugby before going on to play in a big concert (unless it was Beethoven 9). I also played for Gibson many times - a great conductor.
Thank you for sharing the insider information!
ahh I was hoping for this one, thanks a bunch again..it's a beautiful day ;)
Any time!
I find it nearly impossible to come up with a list without repeating a conductor, but here goes:
Kullervo - Davis/LSO Live (not his earlier LSO disaster)
Lemminkainen- Lintu/Finnish RSO
1 - Ashkenazy/Philharmonia
2 - Szell/Concertgebouw (among others)
3 - Blomstedt/San Francisco
4 - Vanska/Lahti SO (amazing as is his 5th)
5 - Rattle/Philharmonia (not the later CBSO)
6 - Segerstam (by default because I prefer Blomstedt and Vanska/Lahti)
7 - Beecham
I vote for a separate Lemminkainen talk.
Your list is great. I've done similar thought experiments with Mahler in the past, but not for Sibelius. I'll think on it and send a list if it seems warranted. Thanks Dave.
Seconded on a Lemminkainen video....its probably my fav Sibelius along with S4, S7, Tapiola, Tempest Suite, and various other tone poems like Wood Nymph, the early Spring Song, and Pohjola's Daughter.
A great new feature for the channel. I’ve been meaning to get to know all the Sibelius symphonies for years, so I’m going to listen to all nine of these albums very soon. Thank you! 10 or 12 years ago I listened through the Boston Symphony cycle under Davis, and I liked the earlier symphonies but didn’t get the music, at least through his approach, with the later ones. (I’m pretty close to being able to offer a list like this for the Mozart piano concertos. I would not be able to follow the “no repeat artists” rule though.)
Nor would I for that repertoire--too many works for it to make sense.
My favorite records are usually those that serve the repertoire faithfully while also presenting a unique interpretation from the performers. With that in mind, I see why you like Szell in the Second - I’ve listened to the Concertgebouw album, and it’s certainly glorious - but I don’t really hear Szell in there, just Sibelius. So I prefer Bernstein at this point, because he also puts a bleak, hard-edged take on the music into play. Do you agree, or have I just not heard enough Szell to understand what he’s saying about the score?
Gibson and the Scottish NO in the Third is outstanding!
@@james.t.herman "I don't hear Szell, just Sibelius."
How in heaven's name is that a complaint? It's what every interpreter should strive for for the duration of his active life! Too few do, but that's a different story. Your remark is about the greatest accolade it's possible to give a recording.
If I'm not mistaken, Sibelius himself pointed out later in life that he had written 9 symphonies, apparently after he received a lot of pressure because of his unfinished 8th.
Also, in defense of the 6th which is one of 2 my favorite Sibelius's symphonies, I think that quiet endings of each movement serve well to the general sad spirit of the work.
But, anyway, great review as always. Thanks!
You are very welcome. The scherzo does not end quietly, but I take your point. The problem isn't their quietness--it is their abruptness and lack of finality (except perhaps the last movement, which is pretty final!).
I have many of these recordings, and, thanks to music streaming (Qubox in my case, which has CD quality streaming) I was able to hunt down most of the ones I don't have. The only substitution I would consider is for the First Symphony, for which I would sub Leopold Stokowski's National Philharmonic recording, where Stokowski is at his romantic best. But so is Bernstein, so it's a close call (if not a coin flip situation).
Another tidbit - The Barbirolli/RPO performance of the Sibelius 2 is available on iTunes (but apparently not on Spotify)
Yep it's on Tidal too
Can't resist just throwing my list down here:
Kullervo: Segerstam II (undoubtedly)
Lemminkaïnen: Paavo Järvi (real stunner)
1. Ashkenazy/Philharmonia
2. Either Szell (obviously)
3. Blomstedt
4. Karajan (because Segerstam already has Kullervo)
5. Bernstein/NYPO (that first coda...)
6. Davis/BSO (first movement soars!)
7. Berglund/Helsinki
I'm about to start reading your book on Sibelius. Have you ever thought of making audio recordings of your books with you reading? Just a thought and something I would enjoy hearing
Dave, great staff again, this time on my favorite composer. My list is the following (but don't ask next week, probably I'd come up with a different list ;-)
Kullervo: not enough experience yet
Lemminkäinen: Horst Stein/SRO (Decca)
1st: Karajan/BPO (EMI)
2nd: Järvi/Gothenburg SO (BIS)
3rd: Maazel/Pittsburgh SO (Sony)
4th: Levine/BPO (DG)
5th (both versions): Vänskä/Lahti SO (BIS)
6th: Sanderling/Berlin SO (Berlin Classics/Brilliant)
7th: Davis/Boston SO (Philips)
Great suggestions!
Great list, thank you. I'm a little surprised that Karajan didn't make the list, either for his EMI 1st or one of his 5ths or 6ths. But I agree the selections you made are superior. Makes you realize how many great Sibelius symphony recordings there are out there.
Karajan refused to conduct the 3rd, so he doesn't qualify in a discussion of complete sets.
@@williamhicks2299 Which this isn't.
No argument against your ideal choices for Kullervo, Lemminkainen, and 1, 2 , 4 and 5. Definitely must listen to the Gibson/Chandos 3 and N. Jarvi/Gothenburg 6. I am entranced with Segerstam's Chandos Sibelius series, faulted by some for slow tempos. I especially like his 3 and 6. Sibelius' narrative in 3, 6, and 7 is concise and, moreover, in 6 and 7 also cryptic. The weightier tempos and spectacular sound allow the music to bloom and reveal something hypnotic and ineffable. Segerstam enables this listener to glimpse a world of mystery and silences, one that is maybe not so indifferent to us after all. The Segerstam Ondine set is also fine, a bit more muscular and for sure less digressive. The RCA Ormandy late 4 and 7 are up there as well.
I can't pick favorites--too difficult. So, for "ideal" I extended your rules and picked great performances of artists who have not yet been mentioned in the thread anywhere so far...These are performances generally in a more romantic mode--I think it works quite well across the cycle, not just in the first two, and my goodness, they're all worth a goosebump or two:
1. de Sabata/NYPO
2. Kondrashin/Concertgebouw
3. Kajanus/LSO
4. Schneevoigt/Helsinki (would have gone with Stokowski/Philly but somebody else claimed him in the 1st).
5. van Kempen/Concertgebouw (Tahra)...this by a nose over the Celibidache/Danish RSO (Originals)
6. Rosbaud/Cologne Radio
7, Koussevitzky/BBC (was on the short list for 1, 2, 5, and 6 too; but fell to the 7th only because one other person mentioned my favorite, Mravinsky, while I was preparing the list!)
Kullervo: Spano/Atlanta (ok, I cheated--no one. had picked this when I started)
Lemminkainen 1. ...and the Maidens--Jensen; 2...in Tuonela--Stein (cheated again, same problem, but I didn't think Foss was nearly as good, and I wasn't interested in listening to Sakari or others for now); 3. Swan of Tuonela--Morton Gould/His Orchestra; 4.Return--Beecham (how could no one have picked Beecham?)
Thanks for getting so creative!
Very interesting point about many young conductors not being able to "let themselves go" romantically in 1 and 2. Maybe a feature of our age, and also the "authentic" movement which sometimes (not always) just sounds "anaemic". Disagree that Sib 2 finale has one repeat too many; if well interpreted (second circuit more intense than first) it works fine. I got hooked through the Ashkenazy version which is pretty slow but the emotional variation and intensity was completely gripping and it "got me".
I wasn't holding out for you to select one of my own favourites....until you held up the Järvi. Dave, I wanted to hug the screen. My favourite symphony and the conductor who introduced me to his music. Thank you very much for a great discussion. Is that Szell live in Japan on the mega-box that Sony released a couple of years ago?
I was delightfully surprised to see Gibson in there, his disc of the Scènes Historiques and Rakastava is also wonderful!
What do you reckon to the idea that Tapiola continued the distillation processes of the 7th, was possibly written concurrently with the first two movements of the 8th and so could regarded as a stand-in for that missing 8th?
I too, have always part considered Tapiola as the Sibelius 8th, if stretched, as it is a continuation of the organic 7th, only much bleaker.
Musicologist Erik Twastjerna (spelling-?), in his book on the origins of the 5th symphony, seems to have conclusively demonstrated that the thematic material for the 5th, 6th, 7th symphonies and Tapiola were all originally created more and less simultaneously, and it took "Johnny Sib" a lonnnnnng time to distill them into their constituent parts (note the three different versions of the 5th). To reveal that connection, I think it would be fascinating to play all four works in a single concert--- Tapiola and the 5th in the first half, the 6th and 7th in the second half...Persnickety N. American music-union officials might object, but in Toronto I did see J-P Saraste do, with the TSO, the 5th, 6th, and 7th in a single performance. They then took that program to Carnegie Hall shortly thereafter... Adding Tapiola to the first half, though--- can never have too much of a really good thing.^^
But Tapiola is really a culmination of the symphonic poems cycle in a similar way to No. 7 being a culmination of the symphonic cycle. From the evidence that has survived, No. 8 was quite different, and was going on yet new and different structural lines. Sibelius couldn't get it the way he wanted, got stuck and eventually destroyed it. A real tragedy I feel, I would love to have heard it. Even an only partially successful Sibelius experiment would be fascinating compared to most works of other composers. Just as the original versions of the Violin Concerto and Symphony No. 5 are very interesting to listen to, though not as integrated as the final versions.
Dear Mr Hurwitz: Sir: as usual as marvellous post. May i ask this? I had long wanted to make sense of the tempi associated with the Sibelius symphonies. Conductors such as Kajanus and Schneevoight adopt a quicker tempo and the phrasing and accents sound like those that Toscanini adopts while conducts (this is a rather silly generalisation but i do not know how else to descibe!). Even in versions conducted by "later" conductors such as Toscanini (with the 2nd) and Beecham, Stokowski (in the 1960 version of the 4th with Philadelphi) the tempi are decidedly brisk. Later there is this huge slowing down of everything. It is as if Sibelius is being Brucknerised. The tome poems hugely suffer i feel as a result (Pohjola's Daughter and En Saga in particular). There is so much melody in Sibelius music that at these slow speeds become tacky. Hari
There is also much MORE Sibelius, and so a wider range of interpretations. I'm not sure if tempos are slower generally. You can't really take just two or three old versions and compare them to 100 later ones and speak of general trends.
I'm having a really hard time choosing my "ideal" Sibelius cycle without repeating conductors. I'm too fixated on Maazel's 1st and 3rd and on Karajan's 4th and 6th... I don't think I would ever choose replacements for them 😭
Well, I wouldn't feel too bad about it. You've earned a special dispensation for your excellent taste.
Great video as always! I know this is not about complete cycles, but I have the Maazel and the Anthony Collins' cycles, and I like them very much! I'd love to know what you guys think about Collins. It is a mono cycle, but there's a "recent" edition, on the Eloquence Decca series, that has a very good sound: 1, 2, 3 and 4 on a double CD, and 5, 6 and 7 and a few extras on another double CD.
As I've said time and time again (and you should read the other comments) Collins is horrible.
Collins on Decca with the mono “reprocessed as stereo”, which was a thing back in the late 60s, was my introduction to Sibelius. Thanks for reminding me of them. They did the trick. I’ve loved his music ever since.
DH clearly doesn't like Collins, but some of that seems to be the playing and sound quality rather than the interpretation. Maybe the best way is to hear a powerful interpretation first to get you into the music and "hooked", and then the technicalities and refinement can come later. As with play performances; if you don't know what it's supposed to sound like, you won't notice the wrong notes!
This is my Ideal List of Sibelius’ “Nine” Symphonies that includes Kullervo and The Four Legends. My Sibelius CD collection is the result of 70 years of collecting experience. I applied the following rules: 1) No conductor repeated in the list; 2) All selections are in my collection; 3) Pick only one performance per composition, not an easy thing to do. Being a destitute audiophile, part of my selection criteria is audio quality. In parentheses following the name is the number of unique performances I own. In some cases, I include comments.
• Kullervo (3) Spano (Telarc). I’ve never totally gotten into this piece, so I picked one with good sound. I also have the Berglund.
• Four Legends (8) Ormandy (Warner Japanese mastering). Other performances include Vanska, Frank, Gibson, Stein, Lintu, Kamu, Groves.
• Symphony #1 (17) Bernstein (DGG). Not the best sound, but I was impressed with Bernstein’s sensitivity.
• Symphony #2 (21) Barbirolli (Chesky). This was the first Sibelius work I collected back in the fifties. I think it was Barbirolli and the NYPO.
• Symphony #3 (9) Segerstam (Chandos). I also have the Kamu (DGG), well regarded in its day.
• Symphony #4 (13) Maazel (Decca Blu-ray). My favorite Si26belius symphony (actually, they all are favorites).
• Symphony #5 (13) Davis (Pentatone SACD).
• Symphony #6 (9) Karajan (DGG). It takes a good conductor to make sense of this work, and Karajan does just that.
• Symphony #7 (16) Beecham (EMI). Could I pick two conductors, I would also pick the Davis on Pentatone.
My incorrect choices...
1. Segerstam/Helsinki
2. Davis/LSO - RCA , not my top choice for a 2nd, but the LSO sounds amazing, more of a pick for them than for CDavis.
3. Barbirolli/Hallé
4. Bernstein/NYP , Lenny drowns us with darkness in the final minutes of this symphony like no other.
5. Vanska/Lahti, the extra emphasis of the final two chords, with an even heavier timpani, seal the deal.
6. Blomstedt/SF
7. Jarvi/ Orchestra de Paris, was pleasantly surprised at how much I liked this one, which I’m sure will make me a target of criticism.
The only recordings of Lemminkainen and Kullervo that I own would be duplicated performers so I’ll opt out of these. (Vanska and Segerstam)
Symphony 3 is presently my favourite, and I really wonder why it is played relatively sparsely. Gibson's recording with the Scottish Nat. Orch. is indeed admirable. The 2nd a bit too fast. I like the recordings of Vänskä with the Lahti Orch. the early recording of Okko Kamu with the Helsinki Phil (DGG LP) and of Neeme Järvi with the Gothenburg Orch.
Also, I can’t wait to see your ideal Haydn cycle, which will feature at least 104 conductors.
107.
David Hurwitz even better. If you get around to Shostakovich, Prokofiev, or some shorter cycles, I may actually know enough to thoughtfully weigh in.
David greetings from the Penal Colonies. Here is my canon, some of which is predictable on my part.
Kullervo Segerstam
Lemminkainen Järvi
1. Karajan EMI with that link to Tchaikovsky
2. Szell or Karajan Philharmonia
3. Kamu DG from 1972 - one of the greatest Sibelius performances in existence
4. Karajan DG
5. Karajan DG
6. Karajan DG
7. Berglund
You repeated. You are disqualified.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Fair enough - where is my dunce hat?
@@bernardohanlon3498 Not a bad repeat though. Thanks for the recommendation on No.3. Kamu is a new one for me.
@@rsmickeymooproductions4877 Richard thanks for the comment. Kamu's S3 is just stupendously great. I hope you enjoy it.
Hey Dave! Just getting to this video - THANK YOU! A couple of questions though: I believe you gave Barbirolli's with the Royal Symphony No. 2 high marks in the past (Chesky Reissue). I personally found it sonic-ly splendid but emotionally detached. Have your thoughts changed over time? Also you give high marks to Neeme Jarvi's 6th, how would you rate his cycle on BIS? BTW, I love his Finladia (BIS CD-314) complete with the Laulun Ystavat Male Choir.
Thanks again for taking the time to make such entertaining & very informative videos.
I don't see how you could call anything by Barbirolli "emotionally detached." I don't think those are the right words, but no, my opinion has not changed. Jarvi's 6th is still great, the whole cycle a bit spotty, but characterful.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thank you for your almost immediate response! Maybe it was because I listened to it very shortly after listening to Berglund's with the Bournemouth version which I found VERY involving and with a more relaxed aural presentation (soundstage-wise?) in comparison. I'll have to give it some time & go back to it - but not before I buy MORE music (thanks to you!).
Interestingly...leaving aside the historical "great" Sibelians, there are some very famous conductors whose superb recordings are not mentioned. I think they deserve better. What about:
1. Ancerl/Czech Phil (Tahra). Fresh and riveting...besides...name another great Sibelius symphony with this orchestra....
2. Asahina/Osaka PO (Canyon). Sure, I should mention Monteux's Sibelius, but Asahina's divinely fastidious balances and phrasing deserve mention here.
3. Mustonen/Helsinki Festival (Ondine). Ok, so not famous as a conductor, instead as a pianist--but this chamber orchestra version is a favorite.
4. Kegel/Leipzig Radio (Eterna). A well known modernist hones a keen edge.
5. Pretre/New Philharmonia (RCA). One or two spots to quibble with, but passionate and powerful.
6. Abravanel/Utah. Neglected cycle; this is one of the highlights. The lack of string heft matters less here.
7. Jochum/Hamburg Philharmonic. He smothers it with warmth, and it almost completely works that way.
Kullervo. Not much to choose from here for an "ideal" cycle. But, given his cycle has been ignored, I'll point out (without choosing) Rozhdestvensky's BBC Proms performance, which was released on a pirated disc somewhere. And despite the bad sound on YT, I couldn't stop listening.
Lemminkainen. I'm totally out of ideas here, but I'll ask for half credit by naming Charles Munch, who recorded the last two "movements" with the ONF,
Isn't Barbirolli's Chesky RPO Second also available on Testament? Is it the same performance?
Yes, it is.
I love Davis’s 5th with the Boston, but the horns aren’t loud enough in the finale!
I like noisy swans!
It was very hard not including the Helsinki Philharmonic twice due to Berglund and Segerstam! My perfect cycle:
Kullervo - Paavo Järvi / Royal Stockholm / Virgin. Concise playing and an excellent chorus. Exceptional control by the conductor, and a mostly fine recording (a little distortion in places). Would pick Berglund / Bournemouth / EMI, but had to include Berglund elsewhere.
Lemminkäinen - Lintu / Finnish Radio Symphony Orch / Ondine. Great performance and sound. Would pick Segerstam / Helsinki / Ondine, but had to include Helsinki elsewhere.
#1 - Jansons / Oslo / EMI. I liked Jansons, though I think he was overrated. I love his old Chandon Tchaikovsky, and this Sibelius 1.
#2 - Blomstedt / San Francisco / Decca. Blomstedt knows the long-line, and it shows here. Tight and powerful from start to finish, and the finale coda is utter majesty. Close second: Szell / Cleveland / Sony. Awesome, but recording too harsh for top spot.
#3 - Davis / Boston / Philips. Expertly combines weight and fleetness.
#4 - Maazel / Vienna / Decca. Rich, dark, and brooding, thinning to bleakness.
#5 - Berglund / Helsinki / EMI. A cohesive, energetic, detailed performance capped by a magnificent finale. The way the Swan Hymn expands and brightens as it is taken up by the full orchestra gives me chills. The final ascent is awesomely spacious, and the chordal dissipation timed perfectly.
#6 - Vänskä / Lahti / BIS. Beautiful textures. To me the most pictorial of all Sibelius symphonies. Would pick Karajan / Berlin / DG, but had to include Karajan elsewhere.
#7 - Karajan / Berlin / DG. Incredibly powerful, and the final cadence? Goosebumps: it is at once numbing and uplifting. The soul leaving the body.
I would love to hear an opinion about Karajan's cycle from 70's with BPO :) thanks there and stay safe
He never made a complete cycle.
@@DavesClassicalGuide yes, I know. But I still want to know what you people think about those recordings, because I'm looking for some good recordings for me.
@@pedromoyaguzman7517 Feel free to check out my reviews on ClassicsToday.com. I think we've covered just about all of them and you can get more detail than I can provide here.
Kullervo:Neeme Järvi, Lemminkäinen:Mikko Franck, #1:Segerstam, #2:Bernstein/NY, #3:Gibson, #4:Levine, #5:Paavo Järvi, #6 Berglund/Helsinki, #7:Colin Davis/LSO (LSO live).
What is the consumer warning BIS included on the cover for Jarvi's 6th?
Early CDs were radioactive. Seriously, it's just one of those "original dynamic range" bits of puffery.
@David Dorfman. I saw that also and was trying to zoom In to see it. Great spot though. Dave. Another wonderful talk. Of all the list I didn’t have the Szell 2nd and Maazel 4th which I will add to the collection now. Great stuff!
Here's my list; I don't claim to be an expert Sibelian, but I think there are some fine performances here, some already mentioned by many others.
Kullervo: Davis (LSO Live); I actually like almost all of the LSO II cycle despite the poor reviews generally, but this is hands-down a great performance, even if he should have stopped after his Boston cycle.
1: Stokowski (Sony Classical) or Ormandy (also Sony Classical); Simply two of the lushest and most beautiful performances of anything. Ormandy's RCA remake, btw, is not quite as special. There's also an earlier Stoki #1 on Cala, and that's a fun performance.
2: Szell (Live version, Sony Classical); I read about this performance for YEARS on CT and wanted to acquire it. Ironically, in an an age where everything is out of print, this is easier to find than it ever has been. The culmination of a magnificent musical career is in this performance, though Szell's Concertgebouw version is still excellent.
3: Segerstam (Ondine): An absolutely gorgeous performance of exceptional quality. Coupled with an equally wonderful 5th. Ondine also has a weirdly compelling Mustonen version, bizarrely hitched to Hindemith, but I imagine it's just a touch idiosyncratic to be a top choice.
4: Karajan (DG); You could certainly make a case for most of Karajan's Sibelius, save for two unidiomatic and unfeeling 2nds, but I feel like he should be here somewhere, and I have put him with the Fourth.
5: Vanska (BIS); His Minnesota cycle is not as good, but his first efforts in this music (he recorded an alternate version of this work too that is, well, not as good) speaks to an exceptional achievement. Having seen him do this live in Ann Arbor, I am certainly impressed by his absolute control of his orchestra, but he's become overly fussy...magnificently so, if you simply like details.
6: Berglund (Warner/EMI, at least twice): No, the cycle in Helsinki isn't as good as his first in Bournemouth, but it has some good things, among them this Sixth. I own both, and I don't mind anyone in the slightest preferring the earlier cycle, but I find both very good. Fun side note: the worst performance of this work I know is a ICA Classics nightmare from Cologne that sounds disgusting. I hated it upon first hearing and wrote awful things about it. I was very happy to see CT feel similarly.
7: Sakari (Naxos); The more obvious (read: correct) choices might be Bernstein (Sony), Davis (Decca), Blomstedt (Decca) or even Ormandy (RCA). But I picked Sakari because his Naxos cycle is quite good, especially in the later works, and if he misses some of the romantic ardor of the earlier works, well....so did Berglund and nobody has taken his Sibelius card away from him.
Four Legends: Paavo Jarvi (Virgin Classics); Now in a handy import box that cost me less that 20 bucks. this includes a fine Kullervo, the cantatas, and a bunch of other stuff. It's a fabulous deal, especially if you're not going the BIS route (everything) for Sibelius. My sleeper pick? Stein, on Eloquence, with two full discs of other goodies.
I read somewhere that before Mahler’s symphonies began to gain widespread popularity with Bernstein’s first cycle, the Sibelius symphonies were played much more regularly. Is that right?
Yes, but I don't think one had anything to do with the other. Sibelius was vary popular in the UK and the USA, not to much in the Europe generally, then he died and so did the conductors who championed him (like Beecham and Koussevitzky) and also the academic serialists took over the universe and his reputation declined. But again, Mahler was not the reason,.
Interesting. I’m finding, as I listen to your ideal Sibelius cycle, that his symphonies are more challenging listening than Mahler, yet they’re enormously attractive and inspire repeated listening. So that’s a great balance for a Modernist composer to be able to strike.
Kullervo: Berglund
Lemminkaïnen: Paavo Järvi
1. Maazel/VPO
2. Barbirolli
/RPO
3. Kamu/Helsinki Philharmonic Orchestra
4. Sanderling/BSO
5. Vanska \ Lahti SO
6. Karajan/BPO
7. Segerstam/ HSO
Thank you, I love this discussion.
Here are my "incorrect" answers:
1. Segerstam/Helsinki or Vanska/Lahti.
2. Szell/Cleveland (Tokyo)
3. Davis/LSO (Live) or Berglund/Bournemouth
4. Maazel/VPO or Segerstam/Helsinki
5. Segerstam/Helsinki, Davis/LSO (Live), or Gibson/RSNO
6. Rattle/CBSO or Berglund/Bournemouth
7. Karajan/Berlin or Barbirolli/Halle
Kullervo: Davis/LSO (Live)
Oh, so so wrong...except where you're not!
@@DavesClassicalGuide I was thinking of throwing some Vanska/Minnesota in there just to stir up some controversy!
@@DavesClassicalGuide BTW, I have enjoyed your Sibelius and Dvorak books immensely--thank you!
@@mattestabrook ThankYou!
@@mattestabrook Wise guy!
Kullervo: Salonen/LAPO
Lemminkainen: Gibson/RSNO
1. Karajan/BPO
2. Szell/RCO
3. Ashkenazy/PO
4. Berglund/HPO
5. Davis/BSO
6.Järvi/GSO
7. Blomstedt/SFSO
My knockout question on the 4th has always been whether I can hear tubular bells in the finale. No bells? I pass. Blomstedt has been my choice since it came out.
Except that Sibelius wrote the part for a glockenspiel. LET US NOT GET INTO THAT CONTROVERSY, PLEASE. Some conductors prefer bells or some combination of the two.
Oh it's difficult not to repeat - Kullervo - LA Phil, Salonen; Lemminkainen Philadelphia, Ormandy EMI; 1st VPO, Maazel; 2nd Concertgebouw, Szell; 3rd Bournemouth, Berglund; 4th Philharmonia, Askenazy; 5th SFSO, Blomstedt; 6th BPO, Karajan EMI; 7th BSO, Davis.
Maazel for 1 definitely
@@jules153 It was either Maazel or Ashkenazy - but had Ashkenazy in his exceptional 4th!
Snap with Berglund, Maazel, and Davis, for Kullervo, 4 and 5. But Ormandy is very good in the Legends, ... and, Karajan on EMI for the 6th, and I am not an HvK fan by any means. Coupled with a blazing 1st. For me though Berglund/Bournemouth is pretty close to an ideal, but it breaks the rules. Also it amazes me that Maazel gets such a fine set from Vienna, as the VPO cannot have done too much Sibelius.
Persuasive arguments from DH about the nature of the Lemmenkainen "symphony". I had not thought of those things previously, so thanks for the elucidation...
As far as nominating choices for the canonical 7, nothing compares with the Ormandy / Philadelphia #7. No other string section on Earth is able to match the fantabulous sounds the Fabulous Filadelphians (sic) make in the concluding Largamente sections...
...which Ormandy pretty substantially rescores.
@@DavesClassicalGuide : True enough, but I seem to recall reading about Sibelius effusively welcoming Ormandy (and the whole orchestra, in fact, if I am not mistaken) and praising him / them for their work in performing his music...
@@colinwrubleski7627 So? Seriously, that doesn't mean anything. What was he going to do, cause an international incident and tell them to go take a hike?
If you get a moment...try Ormandy/Concertgebouw, or even Mravinsky/Leningrad (both on YT). Philadelphia (admittedly glorious) is a uniquely special sound; but aren't these also?. Also, Stokowski, the originator of the Philadelphia sound, makes the AAYO strings quite wonderful in their performance (again, on YT). Does that come close to Philadelphia fantabulous?
For the umpteenth time, I love your videos, and never miss a one. Even when I disagree, I love re-listening to recordings you suggest to listen for what you're hearing. Much appreciated.
I can't not comment on Bernstein NYP for 1. It MIGHT be a great performance, but when I listen to it, I think, "We'll never know." I'm a sucker for some spotlight micing on some early Columbia recordings done for Ormandy and Szell. But on this one, it seems like they were overcoming the awful acoustics of Avery Fischer, or they were having-fun-with-faders + compression. Sibelius #1 should open with fog and mystery over the water and ice. But if this performance was a woman, she would have all the mystery of a plump barmaid with muffin-top cleavage. The harps are louder than the horns, and the basses louder than the rest of the string section. It IS exciting as hell...
I'm enjoying going through the rest of the list one by one! Thanks, David!
The (in)correct cycle.....
1. Maazel, VPO
2. Barbirolli, RPO
3. Davis, Boston
4. Oramo, CBSO
5. Rattle, Philharmonia
6. Vanska, Lahti
7. Mravinsky, LPS
I thank you.....
Thank YOU!
You get extra points for including the Mravinsky 7th!
@@jeffrosenfeld5781 I only discovered it this year but it was a WOW moment :)
@@jules153 Actually, I meant to affirm also your choice of Oramo in the 4th: I was just listening to it again. Terrific, dramatic performance with some distinctive touches. The upsweeping 7th leap in the violins near the end of the first movement (8:07 into it, three measures after rehearsal letter "I"): I've never heard it done with such electricity. There are other moments like this peppered throughout. With such great playing and sound, it's a version to live with.
@@jeffrosenfeld5781 that's great :)
After hearing Orsmo's 4th it completely changed the symphony for me. Previous versions had evoked the coldness of the Finnish landscape... But this version to me made it a symphony of the 'mind', of internal struggles. Which works well with the story that Sibelius had been diagnosed with illness during that time.
It's easy sometimes just to always go for excitement above all else but Oramo just gives a 100 percent authentic, beautiful account. A coherent masterpiece if ever I heard one.
I don't have an extensive Sibelius collection but that shouldn't prevent me from playing, right David?
Kullervo - Berglund/Bournemouth
Lemminkainen - Ormandy
1 - Bernstein (DG)
2 - Szell/Concertgebouw - studio or live from the 1960's - 1970's Concertgebouw box
3 - Kamu (DG)
4 - Karajan (DG)
5 - Davis/BSO
6 - Jarvi (BIS)
7 - Beecham (EMI)
Of course not, and your honesty is refreshing!
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thank you! Well, not an extensive collection relative to the other big names but I felt I needed to make that claim since I wasn't sure if I'm operating on a lower level of Sibelian awareness or not :) I do have 5 complete cycles and additional versions for each work and I wouldn't mind adding a couple more cycles like Blomstedt and Segerstam. I do like to hear contrasting approaches though. Berglund's landscapes sounded so different from Karajan's and I enjoy both.
I grew up on the Anthony Collins/LSO recordings, and still find them in many ways the best overall. One can find individual performances that are superior, but as a complete set I think it hard to beat. I find it puzzling that most of the people making comments here miss the point, i.e., that yours is a discussion of those conductors who made complete sets, not individual symphonies. Karajan never performed the 3rd, for example, so should not be under discussion! By the way, I must be in a minority of one, but I find the Third and Sixth to be the most enjoyable. Eugene Ormandy once said he "couldn't make head nor tail" out of the Third; what is it that is so hard to understand about it?
1. Collins is atrocious--a disgrace.
2. I never said it had to be conductors who only made complete cycles (Szell, for instance), and even many of those who did make complete cycles of the numbered works did not do Lemminkäinen or Kullervo, so I don't know where that idea came from.
@@DavesClassicalGuide You yourself said The Ideal Sibelius CYCLE, which I take to mean all of the symphonies. My mistake. I would be curious to know why you would go so far to call the Collins cycle "atrocious." I am a professional musician, and don't hear anything remotely "atrocious" about it.
@@williamhicks2299The playing is atrocious, the sonics mediocre, and the conducting often slovenly and careless. Here is my review of Symphonies 1-4:
My choice:
1. VPO\ Bernstein
2. Either of Szell's
3. Blomstedt
4. Karajan (DG, BPO, 1965)
5. BSO\ Davis
6. Berglund
7. Vanska \ Lahti SO
Kullervo- Segerstam
Where's Lemminkainen?😊
One thing that surprises me is that NO ONE has commented on how badly out of tune the VPO (Wiener PO) brass, particularly the trumpets, play in the long, slow Bernstein version of #2 available here on TH-cam. I suspect that the tempo is just stretched beyond the point where the brass players can sustain AND play well at pitch, and give Lenny the impact for which he is searching. Even having a 4th trumpet to serve as an assistant to help the principal player seems not to help...
I guess it just adds character. Yech! You're right.
I'd include Tapiola. It's just as much a symphony as no. 7.
No, actually, it's not. It's a tone poem.
This would be my IDEAL Sibelius Symphony Cycle:
Kullervo Op. 7 : Panula, Turku Philharmonic Orchestra (Naxos)
Four Legends from Kalevala, op. 22 (Lemminkäinen Symphony) : Neeme Järvi, GSO (DG)
Symphony no. 1 : Jansons, Oslo Phiharmonic Orch. (EMI)
Symphony no. 2 : Ashkenazy, Philharmonia Orch. (Decca)
Symphony no. 3 : Segerstam, The Danish National Symphony Orchestra (Chandos)
Symphony no. 4 : Bernstein, NYP (Sony)
Symphony no. 5 : Barbirolli, Hallé Orchestra (EMI)
Symphony no. 6 : Berglund (EMI)
Symphony no. 7 : Karajan, BPO (DG)
Which Berglund 6?
@@ThreadBomb The one with Helsinki Philharmonic Orchestra, on EMI.
There's a live Barbirolli/Halle #5 that was originally on PYE but since reissued on EMI and now Dutton that I find remarkable. Scrappy playing so not one for Mr. H, but quite a sense of urgency and I've never heard those final strokes performed in a more satisfying and intelligent way.
I like your choices, but that Segerstam 3rd with the DNRSO makes me angry!!! The way he puts a huge pregnant pause in between the final two chords of the first movement is just vulgar, although much of the rest is nice.
@@michaelk6057 I should search it on the net. I don't know the performance you name. I am in a so-called 'depravity of recordings' and my knowledge is quite limited, since I live in Iran [!].
I don't have your self-discipline. I couldn't make do with only one Segerstam. I'd go for him for both Kullervo and Lemminkainen, so I'd be disqualified before getting to number one.
1 ormandy 1962
2 barbirolli
3 kajanus/sanderling
4 karajan
5 blomstedt
6 leaper
7 mravinsky
kullervo segerstam
lemminkainen salonen
tapiola kussevitzky
". . . A lower level of Sibelian awareness."
Heh, heh . . .
Ah, you noticed that one, eh?
I did and thoroughly enjoyed all to follow. I'm a fan of Sibelius, but don't have nearly the number of recordings as are on your shelves. To my credit, I do have the BIS complete edition, Maazel, Karajan (although I can't really get close to his approach to Sibelius), Berglund, smatterings of others, etc.
I'll add that I really like Maazel's handling of the transitions in the 5th.
Kajanus , is interesting but these old wax have a bad sound. But specialist has to know it and listen to it.
No one has to listen to it.
"I actually have nine symphonies, since some of the movements in Kullervo and Lemminkäinen are in pure sonata form."
(Sibelius to Jussi Jalas, June 1957)
That's what i said.
@@DavesClassicalGuide And Sibelius too.
@@UlfilasNZ That's why I said it.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I was providing a helpful footnote!
@@UlfilasNZ Gotcha. Thanks.