I still can’t believe this show made The Question into the defacto main character for an entire season, and then never gave him a speaking roll for the rest of its remaining episodes. A single line from him in THIS specific episode could have been so golden.
@@otakutoongamer5616Because not only was Question neck-deep in the whole Cadmus thing, but he'd fit both the theme of the episode (non-powered heroes) AND as someone more closely connected to the main baddie of the episode
He technically did get a few lines in the final season, in the episode where the female members get brainwashed and forced to pit fight (this show is really horny...). I do agree he was largely wasted though. Thankfully the series finale at least least gave us a nice sequence of him using a car to its full potential against hostiles.
@@dDdD-rj7gx gosh watching Question running over parademons in his car was the perfect final scene for him in the show. Wish he had another episode tho.
General Wade gives off massive Red Hulk/General Ross vibes for obvious reasons but being played by JK Simmons is always a golden way to make me like a character.
@@guilhermehank4938given many people worked for both marvel and DC (including Jack Kirby) it’s understandable though they didn’t make Ross the red hulk til about 10-15 years ago
Fun fact the character of Spy Smasher is actually now in the public domain. So to all you aspiring comic writers who want to make a Spy Smasher revival comic. Now's your chance.
"If the devil is patting you on the back as you fight angles at least check to make sure he's not holding a knife to stab you with" As always, shit goes hard
This is one of the best examples of why the dcau was so remarkable. No heavy hitters this episode, no big name celeb super hero villains, no iconic villains. Just fantastic writing and characters. The dcau and this show was so...flawless
@@fenrirsrage4609 I'll take those flaws ANY DAY over the crap we get today in movies and TV shows from DC (and many other companies while we are at it).
To answer your question about King Arthur, remember that Arthurian legend is often written with parables about chivalry. The most famous among them is probably the Green Knight, in which Sir Gawain's chivalry is tested through multiple trials. Arthur telling Shining Knight to go massacre innocent civilians just to see if he would is pretty on-brand for a Arthurian test. He wanted to see if he had the moral code to tell his own King "No" if he was given an order to harm the innocent, even if disobedience meant punishment of the worst kind.
It wasn't shown in this video, but Shining Knight said that he could tell that King Arthur was "not himself". So the theory that another poster said, about it being Morgana impersonating King Arthur, is probably correct.
@@jdb2002it’s also possible that word of mouth or letter was misinterpreted by the chain of command and lead to a misunderstanding. The point is that Shining Knight knew right from wrong and was willing to step down rather than “just follow orders.”
Good thing Arthur wasn't a conquer because that would have been so dumb. One of the first things you learn in the art of war is to have maximum loyalty in your army. Edit: there was a perfect example in star wars rebels.
@@senister14 King Arthur wasn't real. He was a story with parables to be told. The reality of chivalry is much like you're saying, unfortunately, but the point of the Arthurian test is that in their world, honor does matter that much. Especially considering that it was the most honorable and chaste of all knights of the round table who eventually found the Holy Grail. But it does create an interesting thought process. There are many, many times in history where a huge disaster could've been avoided if a man in power was told to shut up or outright assassinated, but because of honor his orders are followed.
I love how Shining Knight, despite having immortality, is still human-level of strength. He keeps on getting hit and brutally near the brink of his end, but he still keeps on fighting because he's willing to die protecting his people rather than live just to be right.
Shining Knight's not immortal. His armor and sword are magically enchanted into being invulnerable, but that's it. Edit: I checked and while he's not immortal, he aging is apparently slowed down.
Vigilante is not slow on the draw. The Quick Draw is a famous move used by cowboys where they hold their hand over their holsered gun until the last second. Pulling it out and shooting giving the enemy no time to dodge.
The way I saw it he was intentionally waiting for his quickdraw, letting the general get an inkling that he was the weak link, but in reality, Vigilante could probably get the first shot with his quickdraw
By show cowboys, that comed from buffalo bill shows. But regardless, i guess a quickshow would be practical if you can use it to look better while drawing. Also its a comic, and i bet vigilantes origns is from a cowboy act , if thats what shady implies. It still would be useful in combat i guess. If from an act basically, also superheroes so, yeah circus tricks help in combat, so, why not.
I mean.... It looks like he already knew... the BULLETS THEY DO NOTHING. So he used his ammo in a Different way, Almost like it was a Complete middle finger to that guy saying guns are bad for heroes.
"I may not be seeing myself on the screen, but I am seeing the representation of the me I like to become." And that's the main thing I miss about superheroes or just media protagonists in general.
That's the major flaw in media right now. The people involved in making TV shows, movies, comics, even videogames, want to see THEMSELVES in media, instead of seeing a version of themselves they aspire to. It's all too present tense. It's too "in the now" instead of looking to the future. Instead of looking to what COULD BE.
Soldiers are supposed to follow orders and that's it, if you don't you get jailed, demoted and ostracized. The USA is responsible for countless war crimes commited by soldiers, and never answers for them, considering the 'threat' of an international court to be a terrorist act.
My favourite part this episode is how the civilians play a huge role in defeating the villain by aiding the heroes and fighting back. I love when superhero stories acknowledge there is something more to average humans than just being some backround characters and props during a battle.
@@mizu7662 In the first Avengers movie there is a scene where in Germany an old man stands up to Loki and basically says to him that he isn't the first one to try and conquer. Oh, and in older Spider-Man movie there that one "Careful, he's a hero" scene".
@@mizu7662 When alone, people feel judged so they do what's perceived as good, perhaps even better than those around them. to stand out. when in a group, people feel like their primary concern is fitting in and following along, so they do whatever the group wants. and like a ouija board, even if no individual is really pushing in any particular direction, results will still follow.
Vigilante not drawing a gun is actually also part of good writing. Considering his cowboy shtick, we can surmise that he is good at quick drawing. And as any person that had anything to do with guns, knows to NEVER POINT GUN AT OTHER PEOPLE OR YOURSELF. So he is showing remarkable self restraint and thoughtfulness. Also most superheroes in DC and Marvel are essentially regular civilians just with superpowers. Only characters such as Batman or Arrow are truly trained professionals.
Well trained I don't think they have the qualifications to be professionals Well , I mean certain versions of batman do when he gets deputized by the gcpd But you get my point
@@plantainsame2049 You don't need to be affiliated with government to be professional. Of course you can be professional cop or firefighter or doctor, but if you lose your job and became criminal you still will be pro in that profession. Plus if you are real pro that is not acknowledged by any official institutions you are not any less pro in knowledge or practice.
@@joseescobedo7899 I guess. May be not god tier of Batman but amongst the top certainly. Difference is Batman can do some effective tricks even against Darkseid, Vigilante struggles with Blockbuster.
Anyone else find it hilarious that General Eiling took and untested human enhancement drug from the 1940's that caused him to IMMEDIATELY mutate horrifically and his first reaction to this was to say to himself "I'm going to go punch the guy that beat Doomsday AND Darkseid into bloody pulps".
The interesting thing about this 'plan' of his is that he doesn't need to win, just seem to give Superman a challenge. No one reasonably expects him to defeat Superman, for just the reasons you pointed out, but him winning the fight isn't his objective. His victory condition, as stated by himself is 'Showing there is someone who can stand up to the League.' and no amount of 'no name heroes' being downed is going to achieve that. (In his view.) Of course, he would take a win if he could get it, but I don't get the impression he thought he'd win the physical fight. It's a hearts and minds campaign (which is ironically appropriate for what disarms him.) and he clearly lost this battle of it.
To be fair, this guy wasn’t thinking rationally at all - this was a conniption fit he was throwing because he couldn’t stand the fact he was already defeated: this was made abundantly clear when a small child was able to point out that he had become the very thing he preaches so much hatred towards.
@alfredhinton8792 that was obvious when he fired a missile at an island with the intent of getting rid of Doomsday Superman and putting an end to drug trafficking that took place on that island.
@@keithharrissuwignjo2460 she was more or less ahead of the organization and the general undermined her authority. He may have been a senior member, but she was the de facto leader.
This episode centers on Shining Knight and Vigilante for a reason - they're heroes out of time. They are not modern heroes. They are classical heroes who are meant to be role models. Which is literally something the episode lampshades when a member of the crowd says he's a bad role model because he uses guns! Unless I'm missing something, dude who said isn't backing up the elderly woman when she confronts Eiling. The kids he was apparently so concerned about having "good role models" are though. The show ends with kids imitating Vigilante & Shining Knight because it shows that those heroes, far from their own time, can still resonate with a new generation. That's also the whole point of the first part with Spy Smasher and the conversation between Waller & Eiling. Times are changing, but heroes don't have to.
@@haraldbredsdorff2699 agreed plus it’s extremely believable that an evil scientist from that time period Would want to play around with dna after the crazy things that started to pop up in the world even before the justice league was established.
I always love when a villain goes with the 'Im going to show the world how dangerous you are. Im here to protect them from you'. And said villain is currently putting people in danger and wrecking a city block.
Irving also tried to use a Kryptonite coated Thermonuclear missile to destroy a island to defeat Doomsday and didn't care about Superman because he just says "Cadmus would eventually have to fight Superman later line and trying to wipe out smuggler activity despite civilians being evacuated from a volcano. He's just a old fashioned extreme military commander.
@@bigshow771And I'd say it's good to have both. It just becomes a problem when we are bombarded with one or the other instead of getting a good balance. And that balance doesn't have to be 50/50. It can change. But too far just alienates half the audience and can become boring for the other half.
It's a military General voiced by JK Simmons he's as strong as he needs to be and if the plot needs him to one shot a guy wearing a helmet and by God he's going to do it
Just thinking of it, the General being voiced by JK Simmons... I wouldn't be surprised that if we had J. Jonah Jameson obtain superpowers and start trying to beat up Spider-Man, it would probably end up just like in this episode.
at 15:45 Shining Knight is telling Iling how he disobeyed King Arthers command to wipe out a village but refused. In another episode, he is telling a story to Vigalate and another hero (can't remember which one) about how he discovered that Morgan Le Fey had used magic to adopt Arthur's form. Given these small moments are only episodes apart it could be very likely that Shining Knight is talking about the same event to Iling here. Morgan Le Fey posing as King Arthur gave Shining Knight the order to kill the villages, but he refused and when King Arthur was doing damage control after the deception was discovered he thanked Shining Knight for not going through with it. Just some food for thought
Ever since I found out about them during YJ season 3, I've been seeing them everywhere. Well, basically here and My Adventures with Superman but I didn't know who they were back when I watched this episode in the early 00s
@@drewneedsmoresleep6680 The comics version of Cadmus was somewhat OK with a couple secret mad scientists in the ranks. The original Newsboy Legion were some of the main scientists and the "current" (1990s) Newsboy Legion were their clones. Guardian, Jim Harper, was also a clone of the original, who operated out of Cadmus.
And now he got promoted to most iconic voice of Col. Hal Jordan callsign "Highball" and he's also playing in live action Guy Gardner in the new DCU. Nathan Fillion can play two GL's apparently...and in 2009 he also got the honor of being Col. Steve Trevor...that's like getting Dana Delaney all over again for anyone in the Lois Lane role.
One thing I especially liked about this episode is the children. They're not just throwing rocks. They're throwing pieces of steel rebar--one boy is on his knees because he can't get enough leverage. Another boy is hefting up a piece of concrete that he's visibly struggling with. They're pushing themselves to their limits to try to protect others--and they're only nine years old!
That's the Newsboy Legion there, they were sidekicks to the Guardian (Jim Harper) who protected Metropolis in the days before Superman. Tommy Thompkins is the leader and the one who looks a bit like Wally Cleaver, he never had a codename but I like to call him "Headlines". Then there's Antonio "Big Words" Rodriguez (glasses), Pat "Scrapper" McGuire (ginger), John "Gabby" Gabberrelli (the boy with the turtleneck who sounds like Tennyson/Turner) and later we see in the crowd shot other members such as Bobbi "Famous" Harper (the girl) and Walter "Flip" Johnson Jr. (the African American boy).
@@alexthekiddo10 This episode acts as one of the throwback to the golden age episodes...there were quite a lot of those...especially when the episodes called for focus on Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern, Black Canary and Hawkwoman...specifically Hawkwoman because can you really do anything golden age without thinking of a Hawk Family family member first when it comes to someone that isn't one of the Big 3? Interestingly- If Justice League had gotten a season 6 instead of ending at 5 (because it really should have *I consider Unlimited a subtitle, and so do many of the producers including Bruce Timm according to an old toonzone interview at the Justice League Watchtower), that season was possibly going to focus on throwbacks and time travel at least that's what many of the team wanted to do if it happened...so we probably would have gotten a JSA episode, a multiverse episode with the classic original 7 (and had it been mentioned that Earth-508 was one of the worlds that Earth-0's founding line-up had saved during some untold event) and possibly even some Titans since Titans was ending around the same time...granted, Nightwing and Tim couldn't have been used due to Nightwing being on The Batman as Robin (and later Nightwing in the future, just like Babs got to be both Batgirl and Oracle with similar rules), but we could have probably at least gotten some form of a Titans roster at the time since Wally could have easily done the cameo on TT and went back to JL had it continued...just like how Speedy was used on both shows. My guess is that the roster we would have gotten as a callback would have been a Grayson/Drake split since "anyone who was heroic was automatic league unless directly called a Teen Titan" on Earth-508. The League Titans? Hawk, Dove, Founding Leaguer Wally, Supergirl, Kyle Rayner, Speedy, Tempest, and maybe Donna...depending on how long they spent wondering why she of all women caused that embargo.
Well he also got Saitama free Odens so yeah, best bros. And a side not only Saitama but all Tanktop Master's crews respect him after the incidents of Garou. There are also Fang and King though the manga does not make it obvious.
@@zeroakira584 Wasn't it members of the Tanktop Army that were being smug elitist pricks who rallied a mob to call Saitama a phony? If so, I need to watch season 2 for the ass whoopin they must've gotten saved from that would ever change the minds of such clowns.
@@darwinxavier3516 After the martial art monster incident where the monster association attacked a hospital, Mumen Rider stood side by side with Tanktop Master to fought them off with other non-hero characters, which suprise Tanktop Master as the guy thought how the heck did Mumen Rider keep up with him and also warned him to not overextend himself because he was not wearing a tanktop like they did.
Speaking of references, those four little boys are an obscure group called the Newsboy Legion. Also, the 7 specific Leaguers chosen for this episode (Stargirl, STRIPES, Green Arrow and Speedy, Crimson Avenger, Vigilante and Shining Knight) are a modern version of an obscure team called the Seven Soldiers of Victory.
Heard one time "DC is full of the heroes we want to be, Marvel is full of heroes we would be." And yet, these days it seems like both have suffered from writers with the viewpoint of "The world is too dark for anyone to be a true shining light." But for this episode itself, I love it because it does show the true spirit of a hero. One Punch Man did the same thing with Muman Rider in the fight against the Sea King. I'm not caught up on manga, but that scene in the anime goes hard.
I'm not up on Manga either but I know a couple of things that make this discussion funny. Manga is out selling comics. They do it in part by having those selfless heroes even when the worlds are darker. You mentioned One Punch Man. My Hero Academia is big with a lead that is getting destroyed by his powers. Using them breaks down his body but he uses them anyway because he wants to help so bad. Not sure how the comic companies haven't caught on yet.
Even anime is going this way, jjk, Aot, chainsaw man, making people bad for no reason at all or even worse killing off the good characters for shock value, hell even mha did it
Yeah, at first I thought it was a thing with them trying to make each hero more "relatable". People are complex, messy and flawed, so heroes that are too are more engaging. But then I realized that this misses a point in humanity: we change and can be good. Take Spider-Man, it has repeatedly be a theme with him that "anybody could have gotten bitten and been a hero", that Peter was a shining paragon of virtue that real people can't ever be, it was that even a petty nerd could find the drive to do good and become a hero. That's what I think is the problem now, not that the heroes have flaws, but that there is a pessimism that a regular person would never stick their neck out for another person or try to do good jist for the sake of it.
I liked Mumen Rider, too. He does what he can to help, regardless of his limitations. Maybe something will happen, and he will be able to ride his bicycle like the Flash, only faster 😉
Also I imagine others will say this but Shining Knight's little speech to Eling "There it is. The creeping moral decay of the past 500 years." That one line feels more topic now than it did when this episode premiered. How did we fall so far from the?
It's because Shining Knight's morality is something that he had to cultivate. That village he was commanded to slay was probably a patsy/false flag to prove that he had integrity. Gawain went through his own test against The Green Knight. King Arthur likely had several tests, just as modern society doesn't demand nearly as much.
@@omegaminoseer4539 I would say it less about the tests of modern society and more about how he is from the idealistic story of King Arthur and today in the more realistic sense people who choose morality are punished. For instance do you stay at the job that is paying you and breaking labor laws or do you try to hop to another job that is most likely doing the same or has some other issue? As well, he was born a noble along with the other knights, none that I know of were born of the common folk all were born with the privilege of choice. Sorry for the semi political rant.
Because Arthur was a story, not real life. We have always been this way, granted we do have more honorable moments that inspires stories like that with ideals. But we don't really honor them like we should. We didn't 500 years ago and we don't now.
The frustrating part isn't that things still suck, things have always sucked What's annoying is that NEW things suck, so we somehow fixed old things, but we didn't think to keep the good old parts? and we somehow can't figure out how to just... shift back to those? while still keeping the fixed parts fixed.
@@Ashbrash1998 that's where it gets complicated there was a person around that time that matches the depiction of Arthur but the dude wasn't early British he was Roman and there's also the fact that he could have just been an amalgamation of several people enforcing their positive traits and the fact Excalibur is infact a miss translation of a Welsh word caliburn which means pointed object
Shining Knight: Not when thou are just 'following orders', right? What would you know about following orders? You weren't given foul commands. You never questioned your choices. You do not know what it is like to have your loyalty to your nation and your morality challenged!
It’s also worth pointing out the subtext in this episode of government overreach in the name of national security - the title directly addresses the Patriot Act, which provided the American government with more tools than ever to spy on citizens without being held accountable thanks to secret courts (FISA) that issued secret warrants to surveil the public at large. The, “How many of us do you have to kill in order to save us?” could easily be translated via subtext to, “How much power do you need before _you_ become what you sought to destroy?”
Correct. It was an ill-advised tactic by George Bush to fight legitimate terrorism that at the time was threatening the U.S. but under hussein obama's regime, even though the threat had already been neutralized, the patriot act was expanded to the extreme, intending to spy on & censor citizens in violation of the U.S. constitution. Let's be frank, George Bush was kind of dumb but he had good intentions. In contrast, hussein was a complete pile and had only the worst intentions, hence the outcome.
I'd never heard of Shining Knight or Vigilante but this episode instantly made me a fan of both of them, which is impressive since in the end they a just two dudes who are really good with weapons. Though I understand that's the point and makes the two of them quite badass.
Well shining night has a magical armor that makes him almost invulnerable and a sword that can cut through anything so he is more like and enhanced human
@@toniotrussardi8126 Justin was from one time, Justina from another. It wasn't considered pandering at the time. Arthurian lore had a few female knights in it who did the Mulan thing. Justina was considered legacy at the time...not really pandering as no big deal was ever made about Justina other than just "oh hey, she's like Stargirl, a girl using a golden age codename." Where there's been the biggest (and somewhat unneccessary) commotions have been Alan Scott and Jon Kent....and mostly over Jon. The reason for this was because they're two Big Name Heroes...big names get more attention. You don't have to like choices made to fictional characters even if they're iconic ones, but you don't need to throw a fit about it either...simply make your own characters with your own stories instead.
As a veteran, I have long been of the opinion that NOT all superheroes need PTSD in their backstory. It certainly works for Wolverine and Captain America, because their PTSD is not characterized AS a superpower OR a character flaw. It is treated as a disability that they live with. However, if you give the same trauma to young Clark Kent, it is little wonder that he would actually be moralizing about saving the lives of a busload of kids from DROWNING. Lookin at you, Man Of Steel :( Patriot Act is EASILY my personal favorite from JL. Great job.
its why Darkhawk and Tigra as some of my favorite heroes. Darkhawk has 2 living parents but one is framed as a corrrt cop so the first arc is his mom trying to provide for 3 boys, while working as a lwer to clear her husband and Darkhawk waffeling back and forth on if his dad reayy is corrupt as he unconvers the truth and lerns his powers
@@marocat4749 Clark DOESN'T have trauma. His parents died when he was a baby, but the Kents gave him such a good upbringing that their adopted son thought of himself as a man and NOT a god. The Kents taught him to be grounded and humble. Something else that Snyder messed up horribly.
@@ericdierolf8929 Ok then he had more to reasons to have trauma and he , i would argue hangs on kypton to a fair bit because of that loss, but deals with it motivating him. I would argue its still trauma, its just , also good dealing without letting it , like deals really healthy. He can move on but i would argue he still, has some trauma. He just doesnt let it stop him from being healthy. He is still human, he still asks himself about krypton and , where he comes from. And Trauma hasnt to be disabilitating, or big, to be trauma personally. I think in the for the man who has everything it shows, yes it does get to him, yes he is vunerable there, but he as earnest tackles with that so that it doesnt become unhealthy.
I'd like to take this moment for a nod to DCAU Amanda Waller and even some of her other incarnates. A cut throat, no-nonsense character who believed, to her core, that the Justice League was a threat to her country and furthermore, the planet. Later in life she began to slowly recognize where she had been wrong and spent her twilight years correcting what she could. A solidly written and underappreciated character arc. Edit: Vigilante is voiced by Nathan Fillion and therefore a Superer Superman.
@@bibigamer502 I think what they're saying is that a mary sue is a perfect character whom also controls the plot, they are able to drive the plot forward without the actions or speech of any other character on screen.
I would more say a Mary Sue is a character that can’t do no wrong in the eyes of the world they are in. Whatever mistake they make is easily forgiven or any battle is looked favorably for them. Which is why the heroes of today must feel like they have to be assholes in order for the writers to go “see? It’s not a Mary Sue, they have flaws.” When it’s not even the flaws at this point. If you make the hero more disliked than the villain then you are failing at a simple task. The heroes in this episode showed that while they struggle and were even defeated, their heroism still won the day. Something that’s actually satisfying to see.
I really like J.K Simmons character General Wade Eiling in this. He's a decidedly lawful evil villain, which I always appreciate, and he still somewhat reasonable. Him not killing the soldier because he respected that he was following orders, giving Shining Knight multiple opportunities to surrender, actually listening to the civilians and recognizing his hypocrisy at the end makes me wish we had more characters like him in media. He literally won at the end and had the heroes dead to rights, but was persuaded by a bunch of powerless civilians to show mercy and actually did. Villains that genuinely hold virtues like loyalty, duty and honesty in high regards despite being evil and/or misguided are really easy to root for.
@@Demortra Yeah considering that his #1 gripe with the JL is that they have too much power. Like he's almost militantly neutral, feeling that nobody should be allowed power and he'll use his power to kill anyone who does. Real Brotherhood of Steel shiz.
@@KairuHakubi Nobody other than the United States government, you mean. But otherwise, I agree. It reminds me a bit of those templars from "Jumper." "You are an abomination. Only God should have the power to be everywhere at once."
Something I like about this episode is that it's about two heroic archetypes (the knight and the cowboy) squaring up with an end-justifies-the-means villain. Two bastions of unflinching virtue against someone who will sacrifice virtue for victory.
I really enjoyed that fact as well. Just like you said I love how it was a call back to the older heroic archetype before the age of superheroes. While I know these two have their own comics and are heroes in their own right. It’s still an awesome detail.
It's also kind of a great example of contrasts. A knight is the upright, moral hand of a just ruler. Vigilante, by definition and aesthetics, is effectively an outlaw, the hand raised in defiance of an unjust ruler. Both of them equally reject the ends-justifies-means mindset.
I don't think the thing with SpySmasher wasn't just to pad time, but it more sets up the overall theme. A powerless hero saving the day, even if nobody really knew him
Old Comic Book Fan here. A little background: The heroes sent weren't just picked willy-nilly. In the comics, they (Green Arrow & Speedy, Vigilante, Shining Night, Star Spangled Kid, Stripsey and the Crimson Avenger) were a group originally from Earth-2 called the "Seven Soldiers of Victory". One member is missing, though. The Crimson Avenger's sidekick, Wing, sacrificed his life to save the world from a world destroying villain. The kids (as someone mentioned earlier), were a group called the Newsboy Legion, most famously reused from the WWII era in Superman's Pal Jimmy Olson, by the late great Jack Kirby. Side note: This is also where his famous "Fourth World" (Highfather and New Genesis and Darkseid and Apokolips) got its start. Finally, General Eiling. Originally a protagonist on the original DC version of Captain Atom, Eiling had fatal cancer and had his brain transplanted into an immortal Justice League antagonist called the Shaggy Man. Now going by the name "The General", Eiling had himself completely shaved (the Shaggy Man made a Sasquatch look bald) and attacked the Justice League.
A kid who is part of the paper too. I mean he's part of the Newsboy Legion...sidekicks to the Guardian...as well as back in the day sort of being the fanclub for Perry White, Billy Batson, Freddy Freeman and Lois Lane....the two toughest reporters that ever were...and there's no way a kid who's a fanboy of top notch reporters like that doesn't know how to use their words to check somebody...especially not when their codename is "Gabby"
Pre-Crisis Fawcett before DC bought them out. Captain Nazi was Billy's villain done exclusively to keep Billy out of Berlin as the Captain for the same reason they had to keep Superman out of Berlin...and they made him be the reason Freddy became Captain Jr/Lieutennant Marvel and his brother Kit became Kid Eternity.
Fun fact: The cast of this episode is the lineup of the Seven Soldiers of Victory from the Golden Age. Stargirl serves as the modern equivalent of Star Spangled Kid (he had multiple names over time), and Pat is here as S.T.R.I.P.E. instead of his Golden Age alias Stripesy, but otherwise, an exact match including Crimson Avenger and Speedy. This episode is fantastic.
I heard that they wanted to include Robin here, but couldn't because of the Bat-Embargo. am I thinking of a DIFFERENT episode where they were homaging a classic team that included Robin? I know he was left out of "For the Man Who Has Everything" but I could have sworn there was some team like this that had Robin in it, and a bunch of nobodies.
@KairuHakubi Considering what we wound up with, adding Robin wouldn't make much sense. He was not a member of the Seven Soldiers of Victory, and Robin does not have anywhere near the level of "Who even are you?" energy everyone else here has.
@@Excellsion I could have sworn I read something like that. That Golden Age Robin was pals with Speedy and Star-Spangled Kid. Ugh this is going to drive me nuts now. Did... Speedy ever show up again? was that it?
@KairuHakubi I'm pretty sure this was Speedy's only Justice League appearance. He appeared a couple of times on Teen Titans, looking almost exactly the same. It's possible that in an earlier draft they wanted to use Robin, but when they found out they couldn't, they realized that with an unitrucive introduction of Speedy, they could maintain a no powers* squad that happened to be the Seven Soldiers of Victory. But I don't recall Golden Age Robin interacting with non Batman characters much. Something to do with "diluting sales." I.e., Superman and Batman were on the first lineup of the Justice League, but were forbidden from making appearances on covers, and the Seven Soldiers of Victory were from like a decade prior to that.
Eiling is the epitome of "You have become the very thing you swore to destroy." Even prior to his mutations, he was moving like a supervillain, ordering the military to nuke Superman and innocent people and other kinds of stuff. Amanda Waller has more honor and common sense than Eiling frankly, which isn't saying a lot as she tried to order 2 innocent people killed so their kid could be traumatized like Batman and hopefully turn out like Bruce but still. The guy's absolutely a greater threat to humanity than the Justice League, and this episode where he just beats tf out of powerless human heroes absolutely shows it, banger of an episode and keep up the good work! 5:47 Omg 💀💀💀💀💀💀
In Boot Camp, part of our training is being able to recognize “unlawful” orders. If we believe an order is unlawful and should not be followed, we can bring it up to a higher officer with no reprisal.
But in Shining Knights case if the King tells you to do something, it should be a lawful order. Because the king himself decreed it. So Eiling should be going by that understanding. The other perspective could be Eiling's older and when the show came out he should be a soldier from the Vietnam era or before. So he was trained and ingrained the idea that disobeying an order despite being "unlawful" is just the weakness seeping into the military.
The Spy Smasher scene is used to further emphasize the episode's theme of the corruption of morality. It's a black and white scene with a black and white example of a good man fighting evil people to protect his nation, which cuts to Eiling. Eiling is, in contrast, a man wanting to do good for his nation, but is corrupted by Cold War era paranoia that leads him to commit evil even at the expense of the people he claims he want to protect.
Superheroes are modern day myths. As the Babylonians had Enki, the Greeks had Hercules, and we have Batman. Mythology is an integral part of our humanity, whether we're cave men, or modern day agrarians. Times change, but humanity doesn't. We still need stories that inspire us, that carry our morals, that teach us valuable lessons on the human condition.
@@michaeltaylor788 the one calling himself "Harold Champion" of course...and yes that guy deserves a non-braceleted slap to the face for the stunts he pulled....including working with a witch just so she didn't have to adapt to a new lady in the Wonder suit once...like Donna said once "they better be glad she plays a lot nicer than Diana has to these days...because there was a time when Diana did play nice, but the 90's got to her like it did to Bruce and Clark."
@@psicoparkita Lobo would have been asked to leave either way. Lobo was never officially a member of the league. Aquaman was operating as the on/off eighth member...a sort of co-founder during multiple just league episodes. All Lobo really did was just declare himself in when he wasn't really, and J'onn would have kicked him out regardless of whether or not Superman returned. The only viable options considered were Supergirl (Hawkwoman's choice) Aquaman (Wally, John, Martian Manhunter, even if Wally hated Aquaman's 90's attitude like the rest of us did.) Batman going full-time (Wonder Woman). The final vote via Hereafter's conclusion where Savage wasn't stopped showed Aquaman ultimately became the eighth member in this timeline either way as he was recruited shortly after the Thanagarian invasion and began becoming less of a jerk by the time of "Destroyer". Green Arrow acted as an alternate eigth during Unlimited as did Black Canary since this show follows Post-Crisis continuity in a very loose way and Post-Crisis placed Canary as Eighth founder present at the Appellaxian Invasion...and operating in Wonder Woman's place in the early days just like how Green Arrow acted as Batman's daylight budget replacement...and how J'onn would get more active use since the big 3 would say "oh we're busy with ongoing problem at same time as league business" frequently...although Wonder Woman at least tried to make time for both league business and keep her beat if she could. During those early days though... Gotham is more than enough reason for Batman to be busy...that place is a pit. Superman usually got tied up with intergalactic threats that didn't require Hal, Guy and John to deal with. Wonder Woman- Amazon issues, but not as much.
If you loose your powers without a certain "object", (ring, staff, magic item, armor...) Then you do not have superpowers. You may use them, but you don't "have " them. Your overall point is great. First time on your channel and I am really liking it.
Personally, I feel that if the object in question follows certain rules , that person does or does not have superpowers like how easy is it to take and keep the object? For instance, a GL ring is fairly easy to remove, but since they have the ability to call it back to their finger (sometimes), I consider them to have superpowers
@@Overload3210 I can see your point, but still, without the ring he is just a normal dude. He doesn't have superpowers, he controls a super tool/weapon.
"I feel there's an obvious joke that i could make here about J.K. Simmons solo-ing earth protectors, but my brain is not connecting the dots, complete train-wreck up there" chuckles*
I think this is my favorite version of Waller like they make a good character with Justified motives and character arc that makes sense instead of just being someone who doesn’t listen to reason and is just straight of up evil
@@keithharrissuwignjo2460 This based off some older comic versions of her. Back when she was just "The Wall" she wasn't too bad. Nowadays though? They have made her pure evil for the sake of being evil, and that isn't Waller damn it. I guess she can only be good when C.C.H. Pounder is doing her voice.
Waller's depiction in JL is the only one I'll accept. She learns her lesson (though it's not easy) and she becomes better, but she still has the same goal she always had. She'll still do at best questionable things to meet her goals, but she is willing and even eager to take the higher road when it's offered.
16:05 Retired Air Force here. Yes we are trained and have avenues for reporting and not following unlawful orders especially if it endangers US Civilians or goes against the Constitution. But there is truth in the myth, the US military has a “Good old Boys and Girls Club” and “We all on the same team” mentality. So the moment you report it, especially if it gets enough attention from the right higher ups or the right congress men or women, you in the US Military are seen as not in “The Club” or not “on the same team”. At best the rest of your time in will be a living hell being ostracized, over look or denied promotions, and if you’re lucky maybe move to a new command that doesn’t really know what happened or doesn’t care and things somewhat go back to normal. At worst the military finds a excuse, even if it severely, sometimes even criminally, blown out portions, take out of context, is just a technicality or a nit-pick, or worse just made up and kicked out and will try to screw you out of your VA benefits
Truly, the worst part of seeing the world in only grey is that one can't tell between darkness and light. I'm sure someone said that before me, but I'll say it anyways. Cause it's not just heroes being turned into jerks, but villains being turned into heroes. Doesn't matter how sad Cruella's backstory is, she still wants to steal and skin puppies for a coat. Also, I have to disagree with the intro being 'pointless'. Not only is it a great showcase of a hero with 'to my knowledge' no powers taking on the bad guys, but it is another showcase of how far Eiling has lost it. Rather than seeing a hero defeating 'WW2 Germans', he only cares for the serum.
The sad irony of modern times is that we are consistently told to look at the world in black and white for subjects and events that have nuance and grey, and then told to view the world as grey for black and white moral matters.
@@hariman7727 If you see the world in black and white, it is always possible to consider that something could be black _and_ white--meaning, grey. If you see the world as _only_ shades of grey, then there can never be black or white in the first place. That's key. In our rush to prevent mistaken (and dangerous) B&W thinking, we have created two new monstrosities: the "everything is grey so what difference does it make?" nihilist, and then head-in-the-sand ostrich who desperately clings to anything anyone says that might bring back the clean simplicity of unconsidered B&W thinking. In reality, at best only a few things are totally, unquestionably jet-black without the tiniest hint of warrant or virtue, and fewer still are pure-white without the tiniest fleck of grey. But that doesn't mean that snow and coal are equivalent. We have been reminded to hell and back that an enforced righteousness is a false righteousness. Now we need to stand back up and say that that doesn't mean _no one is ever righteous._ It means we must be vigilant, always. Evil wears many masks, and even good people feel temptation. We should not conclude that that means everyone is always horrible forever. We should conclude that that means trust, respect, and authority must be earned.
@@ZekeRaiden THIS is what I miss from comics and superheroes in general. Yes, sometimes they DO screw up. I think this is what was meant in the bit about King Arthur telling Shining Knight 'thank you' for not following his order to slaughter the town of civilians. The question isn't why'd he order his knight to do something like that - it's the fact that nobody's perfect, not the leaders OR the heroes - but Arthur's relief is that his bad judgment call didn't result in everyone in that town dying that he was thanking Justin for. It's understanding that you screwed up, admitting that, and trying to do better in the future, that people have lost sight of. Sometimes the good guys HAVE to stop the dam from exploding and wiping out a whole town, even if that means they miss the chance to keep little Timmy from getting hit by truck-kun because the driver was panicking while evacuating. The thing that separates heroes NOW from heroes THEN, is that they USED to at least feel some kind of guilt that they couldn't save EVERYBODY, and would do what they could to make things right as best they could. That's the cross they bear: even if they COULD make the choice again, they have to live with the knowledge that they still have to do whatever saves more innocent lives, even if they KNOW some lives will be sacrificed in that goal.
@@lstcloud Me and fans have theorized that this was a test by Arthur in that he wasn't looking for a obedient soldier but a good man who was one of the few who deserved to be called a knight and Justin passed with flying colors. The dialogue between Justin and Eiling proves this might have been the case. Eiling/Blockbuster: "Then you failed at being a good soldier." Justin/Shining Knight: "Arthur thanked me you oaf had I been wrong I would've willingly hanged up my sword and left the court in shame." In fact most of my friends who are currently in the military tell me part of the so-called Soldier's Oath is "the moral obligation to refuse and call out orders given by superiors that he or she have concrete evidence proving said order is a morally unjust order."
We shouldn't ever see ourselves in a superhero; we should see who we _wish_ we were. It's just too bad that for every person that wants to be Batman, there are 1000 people that want to be Bruce Wayne.
For me, it's wanting to be an Ozymandias from Watchmen, for a guy like me should be willing to commit a costly sin so to create a truly better world, even if it only lasts a millennium.
I tried to make that quote go viral back in 2014, back when Ferguson was the newest thing to happen, before Black Lives Matter even started. Needless to say, it did not. The post was that screen capture and quote, labeled *"Ferguson, St. Louis, Missouri - August 9, 2014 - Colorized"* peak 2014 tumblr humor... and nothing. IDK, I guess like 99.9% of attempted memes don't go viral, I should just accept that.
This was one of my most memorable episodes. As a comic book fan, I was familiar with every obscure superhero before I started watching the show, including Spy Smasher. As a tween, I was really into X-Force, Youngblood, and the early 90s grim 'n gritty superheroes, but Kingdom Come brought me back into what I loved about superheroes as a kid, the idea that superheroes inspired you to be better in ways you actually can, to help people, not just to be violent and vengeful. Like Kingdom Come, this JLU episode utilized obscure superheroes we hadn't seen in a while and showed us how ordinary people could make a difference.
I'm glad they were brave enough to name the epidsode "The Patriot Act" since you could draw so many parrels from that horrible destruction of freedom under the guise of "protection" and what cadmus and ESPECIALLY the military general does/thinks Sidenote: I love the easter egg of this Speedy having not only the same design, but same VA as Speedy in the Teen Titans show, except he looks a bit older here.
Shady: "How is the cowboy the slowest on the draw?" Me: "How many answers do you want?" 1) He's being a good role model with a gun and demonstrating basic firearm safety by not pointing his gun at anything until he knows what it is, what's behind it, and that he's willing to use potentially lethal force against it. 2) Quick in the draw; slow in the head. Quick drawing is a party trick for rodeos and circuses, not an actual combat maneuver. Several great gunfighters from the old west have shared the opinion that taking the time to think and plan where to shoot is far better than shooting first. 3) The common rule amongst cowboys was that drawing before your opponent put you at fault for any damages.
Allow me to offer a counter arguement to that last point, at least. Eiling has already wrecked a parade and nearly killed several civilians WITH HIS LANDING.
I love this episodes use of a version of the Seven Soldiers Of Victory of all characters to show heroes just being heroic, good people. They’re really old characters back from the JSA era and other than the Stargirl legacy and Green Arrow, they’ve mostly faded into obscurity, only getting occasionally used in something like the Stargirl tv show. They’re in that perfect sweet spot to highlight heroes being good just because it’s the right thing to do, since many heroes back in their day weren’t very complicated and were just good people, while also being obscure enough to hammer the point home that you don’t have to be the biggest heroes in the world to inspire others and do the right thing. This is one of those moments where everything just falls into place so perfectly and was always a highlight of JLU.
i love how normal people got involved in impactful ways in the 90's batman and super man and justice league and unlimited, though its weird that speedy shows up in this show once which i only knew of him due to teen titans yet nightwing never does aside from a cameo in green arrow and black canary's episode trying to keep huntress from killing a mob boss
For the record, this LU episode was based on a classic Golden Age story in which the Seen Soldiers of Victory -- Green Arrow and Speedy, the Star-Spangled Kid and Stripesy, the Vigilante, the Crimson Avenger and Sir Justin the Shining Knight -- had to fight a supervillain who was many leaps and bounds out of their league -- not Wade Eiling the Gray Hulk, but a cosmic entity called the Nebula Man.
Alongside the auxillary members, Lee's sidekick Wing, Sir Justin's sidekick Squire and Vigilante's sidekick Stuff. Sadly...Wing How the "Eighth Soldier" did not return from this fight, but since he did not return, it allowed Green Arrow and Speedy to return to their real time and TNT and Dyna-Mite joined the team afterward.
He also voiced Steve Trevor really well. Which reminds me of how much Shady needs to do a video about the animated Wonder Woman movie, it's seriously underrated.
9:29 Sir Justin is probably a knecht - a regular armoured warrior wealthy enough to pay for his own horse and armour, around the 9th-10th centuries (the time in which the folk tales of king Arthur would have reached their peak, prior to transcription into books) - meaning he really _would_ be uncomfortable getting paraded about like a horse at market, because in his time he'd have been the wealth equivalent of The Guy Who Owns A Small Family Business. Better off than most people, owner of at most one or two farms, but still nothing on the vast wealth of later Knights, who owned stretches of land large enough to contain entire local dialects. 9:51 Vigilante is doing Quickdraw - he's not got his gun out because it's many times faster to just quickdraw and shoot if necessary, rather than have your vision potentially obscured by an outstretched gun. He's a cowboy, it rather makes sense.
"I'm afraid being famous isn't the same as being a true hero". "For a true hero isn't measured by the size of his strength, but by the strength of his heart." Words that shaped me into the man I am today ❤
“Stood in firelight, sweltering. Bloodstain on chest like violent new continent. Felt cleansed. Felt dark planet turn under my feet and knew what cats know that makes them scream like babies in the night. Looked at sky through smoke heavy with human fat and god was not there. The cold, suffocating dark goes on forever and we are alone. Live our lives, lacking anything better to do; bear children, hell-bound as ourselves, go into oblivion. There is nothing else. Existence is random. Has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it too long. No meaning save what we choose to impose. This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not god who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to dogs. It’s us. Only us. Streets stank of fire. The void breathed hard on my heart, turning its illusions to ice, shattering them. Was reborn then, free to scrawl own design on this morally blank world.” These are words that shape people like me because we recognize that the concept of the hero is a lie - a comforting one, but a lie still. We can only count on ourselves at the end of the day.
too bad they came from the mouth of zeus. **screams in mythology knowledge** joke aside: "time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time" i internalize these words and the world demands that i suffer for that decision it seems...
Pretty sure she's not necessarily a villain or a hero, she's meant to fill a role similar to what Nick Fury from Marvel has, or Cecil from Invincible, she is meant to be a morally gray character.
@@christianjohnson5379 she's more that corrupt government agent that does whatelse they see necessary and cannot be touched by normal means because they will use perception to beat you to the ground without even needing to lift a finger
@@stevenchoza6391 This is the only version of Waller that is good or morally grey, almost everywhere else she's just a villain who claims to be a "Good guy"
@@Gypsygeekfreak17 cmon, everyone knows that was just an excuse; The USA loves to find excuses to invade other countries and plunder their resources, specially oil
Honestly, it's always annoyed me when people say things like: "We can't do or say or profit off of anything that has anything to do with X because X is associated with Y via a low common denominator, and THAT would be disrespectful." For this episode to be disrespectful to the war, there needs to be an ACTUAL DIRECT correlation to the actual event. Not just something that's vaguely reminiscent of the event.
9:50, well, he is a cowboy, and one of their signature traits in media is to quickdraw their revolvers at the last second and unleash a volley of bullets in the blink of an eye
You just earned a subscriber. So glad there are REAL superhero fans out there still. A superhero isn't someone who has flashy powers, it's someone with a crazy amount of determination to protect and fight for goodness and innocence.
"If the devil is patting you on the back as you fight angels, make sure he doesn't have a knife to stab you in the back with" is the hardest line i have ever heard holy shit Shady
Vigilante hit a car with his head hard enough to lift it into the air. I can't believe you missed that among all the scenes where Stargirl should have died.
@@ShadyDooragsBatman once dented metal with his head and didn't even get knocked out, (if I remember correctly) so I think that dcau humans are just built different.
Hi, old-school DCAU fan from the Toon Zone message boards here. Yes, there WAS a cut moment when Eiling was holding Stargirl. Bruce Timm used to post on the TZ boards (as “b.t.”) and confirmed this in the talkback thread for this episode. Nice catch!
Holy shit, Alex Weitzman?! I still remember reading some of your BTAS reviews on The Big Cartoon Database! ... did you happen to save backups of any of those?
7:15 I’d argue Stargirl and Green Lantern don’t have powers, but Blue Beetle does. I say that because GL and Stargirl aren’t physically bonded to their items, whereas BB is. They can lose access to their items, throw them away, have them taken away and they’re just regular people, but in most versions the Scarab is fused to Jaimes spine and to remove it would kill him. I’d say that counts as powers, because he basically has a nanotech implant in him and makes any tech he needs out of basically nothing, but GL and SG don’t have anything like that and need their removable items with them to use their powers.
I think Shady was talking about the Ted Kord version of Blue Beetle, not the Jaime Reyes version. Ted never had the scarab bonded to him. As to why the Ted Kord version, while he's never seen in Justice League series, he would've probably been active during that time frame. I think the only reason why they didn't use him, was there was some doubts as to whether they had the rights to use the character.
@@atoth62 I don’t think so. Ted doesn’t have powers under any definition, he’s just a guy in a suit who uses tech. He’s your typical Batman type in that regard. Him saying he thinks Beetle has powers would pretty much have to be in reference to Jaime.
To go a little geeky on a discussion of powers, there were a few origin options in Marvel's Super Hero RPG: Altered humans, normal people who acquire powers, such as Spider-Man or the Fantastic Four. High-tech wonders, normal people whose powers come from devices, such as Iron Man. Mutants, persons born with superpowers, such as the X-Men. Robots, created beings, such as the Vision and Ultron. Aliens, non-humans, including extra-dimensional beings such as Thor and Hercules. Personally, I'd say a High Tech Wonder doesn't have super powers but is a superhero. Ripley got into an Exosuit and fought an Alien, does that mean they have superpowers? No, but they were darn heroic doing it. Robots could probably fall into the same thing, as they're just computers using technology and not any superpowers. Is a pilot suddenly possessing the superpower of flight when they flight their plane? Essentially if you meet this hero at a random time and place, just walking down the street.. can they do the same things they can do while being heroic? Can Tony fly and shoot repulsor beams and such without being in the suit? Could Stargirl do anything special without having her staff?
This is my absolute favorite JLU episode. This and mumen rider from "one punch man" are the kind for super hero stories I love the most. Like don't get me wrong, seeing Superman push a building out of the way to save a baby seal is cool and all, but seeing a street level or lower hero always lights a fire inside me. Watching them push past their limits just to stop whatever in front of them makes my day.
Indeed. A character that gives *everything* they've got and it's just not enough or is but just barely, is amazing to see. A character who's given all they've got, and all they have left is raw willpower. It shows great strength of character, and it's a sight to see. I'll never be able to watch Mumen Rider go up against Deep Sea King and not get emotional.
Hey, I remember this episode! It's one of the few I actually remember! The message of "Give the other heroes some love too" is really well conveyed here when those kids at the end suddenly want to be like Shiny Knight and Vigilante, when before they probably didn't even know who they were. Mumen Rider from One Punch Man had a similar thing going for him, only in this case he's extremely well known and people cheer him on despite knowing he can't win.
Today, I went to my co-worker's house to help them move out. I vacuumed their old house, swept spider webs of the ceiling, cleaned the shelves and did a tip run for him. I've known them for about a month, and I had to actively turn down the money he wanted to give me for helping. I saw at work how stressed he was about how much cleaning he had left to do, and I wanted to help him and make his life a bit better. I learned that from the older superhero stories. If I grew up watching She-hulk and the eternals, I doubt I would've wanted to help, because the heroes I grew up with would have told me not to get involved.
The moment when it cuts to Thor saying that’s what hero’s do is a good line that perfectly reflects the scene as he is willing to die for the people he protects
17:09 I love how that legit makes him pause. General Eiling beat up all the superheroes but he couldn't convince anyone what he was doing was the right thing, not even himself. Talk about winning the battle but losing the war.
I would say superheroes aren't necessarily supposed to be relatable, they're suppose to inspire. That's what makes Superman so good, a being with the power of a demigod, who could conquer the entire Earth in a few days, but even with all his powers he use them to help people, to be an example for others, all the while not joining with political wars or factions or whatever. Flash is the same way, with his speeds he's helping the people in his city, even painting fences of old ladies cuz he can. "I wanna help people like Superman, I wanna look out for my neighbors like the Flash." Like you said, we kind of lost that.
That used to be the difference between DC and Marvel, at least in theory. Stanley Lee decided he wanted heroes that the readers would be able to identify with and that's part of why Spider-Man was created as a teenager instead of an adult like most heroes.
Yeah because DC heroes aren’t relatable their inspiration the only heroes that are relatable are from marvel. And I like to say that DC is the Abrahamic God who we should try to be as mentioned multiple times in the bible. Marvel are like Greek gods who even though have great power they sometimes fail and fall into despair. Like how iron man was an alcoholic or spider-man using he’s powers for selfish desires.
This episode is loaded with nerdy bits. One is the Eiling’s transformation isn’t just a Hulk reference. In the comics he transfers his mind into an artificial being, a big hairy monster called the Shaggy Man that had gone toe to toe with the Justice League on multiple occasions, then shaved him so he looked basically like the monster in the cartoon. Random trivia I know but if he was as powerful as he was in the comics he probably could have gone up against Superman, or even the league itself.
Which makes a hero a heroic? Is it having great power that allows them to not only save those around them but also make their lives better like Superman? Or is it overcoming great struggles to show the power that anyone can achieve with enough hard work like Batman? The answer, is whoever chooses to be a hero because it's the right thing to do.
Current day "heroes" are basically edge lords or overpowered ego driven mary sues like captain marvel who doesn't even do anything since she lost to a weaker thanos. Old heroes had issues that they had to deal with like spiderman and a city that hates him. Superman in tas where he literally destorys the city and has to build himself back up as a hero and person A hero is someone that does what's right regardless of their own personal fame. The heroes in unlimited help in a pinch. Iling like lex have the mentality of "superpowers are bad so we should also get them to stop these threats"
@@firedragonv2408 well he did lose quite a few things in his time. Robin becoming Nightwing and sometimes on a bad end. Jason Todd's end. Batgirl becoming oracle losing her legs due to joker. He has to live with that same with the writers not wanting him to be happy yet somehow having Damian meaning he gets got by Damian's mom regardless.
So Captain Marvel is an overpowered "Mary Sue"... but she also lost to Thanos, which goes against the Mary Sue definition of being OP and never losing? Huh?
The argument about modern heroes is good one, and how most modern writers are so obsessed with their heroes being "relatable" forget that heroes don't actually need to be relatable, they need to be inspiring. Superman epitomizes an old quote IIRC originated with a martial arts master a long time ago, albeit in a different context: "The fact that perfection is impossible is no excuse to not strive for it." It's not about whether or not he's immediately relatable to an everyday person, it's the fact he represents the kind of good we should strive to be, and that is what is lost on modern writers.
Marvel heroes are meant to be related to. DC heroes are meant to be looked up to. Obviously this is not written in stone or anything. I like both approaches. But I’ve always liked DC comics more.
JLU was SUCH a wonderful show. Also was able to show how Superman saw/treated the world. "A world made of cardboard" and gave him someone to actually cut loose on.
Shining Knight and Vigilante are still my favorites from JLU - and I wish they were around more as a whole. Hell, this episode is still my absolute favorite of the whole Justice League series, remembering they had more than just the main cast and actively using them to some of their best potential - this episode could never have happened if you threw in the main cast of the Justice League, the founding members would have whooped his ass. Bringing in the lesser known heroes, and all heroes without powers - well, that's what truly made this episode. What do you do when your enemy is insurmountable? Do you still fight the good fight, do your best to save as many as possible? Do you turn tail and run? Being a hero isn't just being the strongest around, and this episode does a good job at reminding us of that.
"A true hero is not defined by their strength, but by their ability to inspire and lead others." - Mahatma Ghandi Modern day media focuses too much on showing heroes being 'normal' people that just happen to have superpowers. These heroes are flawed, hypocritical, plagued by their own biases and ideologies... and Hollywood thinks their characters will be popular because most individuals can identify with them in this "one of us" mentality. What they fail to realize is that the "spark" Shady is referring, the spark most of us miss but can't identify, is that we rarely see heroes that are not just superpowered, but super *human*... They don't struggle to make the morally correct choice, they don't struggle with decisions of whether or not to abuse their power, they opt to be gentle and kind as often as they can rather than a raging douchebag, they lift up as many people as possible on a physical, emotional, and mental level... That is what is missing now. I don't need She-Hulk 'twerking', for the love of God, I need more Sir Justins, Stargirls, Vigilantes, and Stripes. I don't want a person with superpowers, I want a superhero.
I'm sorry but what? Normal people? In what world is Doctor Strange or Iron Man "normal people"? In today's world, superheroes or people with special power are always portayed as the 1% class. They have supernatural intelligence, and are usually filthy rich. They are not normal in the slightest. Hell this is a trend that continues into other forms of media as well, the idea that normal people are just sidewalk trash, here comes the people with abnormally good stats! It's an age of overpowered people and rich or just those who were extremely lucky in life. You ain't gonna see the farmer's boy/girl become a superhero because say, he found a magic staff. No, they're going to become a superhero because they can solve advanced math in their sleep, are built like supermodels, have all the tools available to them to build their own suit or gadgets and whatnot. Not going to be the person who is sliding behind in school because their brain can't comprehend what they're studying, or the unemployed bum. Never. So I disagree wholly with you. But I do like Sir Justin.
It kinda doesn't help that so many people who consume superhero content are so focused on the powers of the heroes and how powerful they are rather than how they are actually heroic.
@@ShadeSlayer1911the show my hero academia is also guilty of that. 80% of the world's population has super powers and the normal 20% is treated like crap. Not to mention most of the heroes do it for the fame and money instead of for what's right.
@@slanetroyard92 Not to mention, in MHA Japan, it's illegal for anyone who isn't a registered hero to even use their quirk, let alone help heroes fight. I'm looking forward to seeing how they might resolve this issue within their world. Because a lot of people were upset at the civilians for crapping on the heroes, but I think a lot of the heroes had it coming. The two parties basically made a deal. Heroes said "we will protect you civilians, and in return, you can't protect yourselves...at all But you won't have to. Just leave it all to us." Civilians said "okay," because they trusted the heroes. But then the heroes FAILED. Sure, in times of peace that was held up by All Might, it was easy enough to protect the civilians who are not legally allowed to protect themselves. But once All Might retired and real crap started, they absolutely FAILED in every regard. Many of them straight up quit because they weren't really hero material. So now the deal turns out to be a raw deal. Civilians gave up their rights in return for security that the heroes failed to provide. So yeah, they're upset. They should be upset. And yes, they're responsible for this deal too, but the heroes convinced them it was a good deal, when in reality it was an awful deal. They gave up their freedoms for security and got neither. They live in an authoritarian hellscape where the average citizen is not legally allowed to use their natural born abilities, and they're still not safe. I'd be pissed too.
@@ShadeSlayer1911 the thing about mha has failed to realize that you don't need powers to be hero. I can so many heroes from Marvel, DC, Invincible and so on that have gotten the job done without powers. Besides that mha heroes one of the most important things to being a hero. It's not a heroes job to be liked. It's their job to help people no matter the personal cost. A great man once said with great power comes great responsibility. Spiderman learned that lesson. Despite that he gets bashed by the media and the people of NYC, he still does the right thing.
Something I do want to say, although I don’t know if anyone else said it in the comments, is that Sir Justin kept his word. The General never showed up again in the series to harm another, just like Shining Knight promised. It’s a little detail that I loved from my favorite episode of the series.
You know what, his first appearance was in September 1997 in the Image Universe. So, while he didn't have a voice back then, I wonder if this episode inspired the casting? Actually, I wonder why people don't use the audio of this episode to get clips of him saying "Superman" and such to make TH-cam Poops, or Rap Battles, between the two characters, or whatever the internet is doing these days.
![[TH] 2024 PMGC League | Survival Stage วันที่ 1 | PUBG MOBILE Global Championship](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/FVFT-PFwU80/mqdefault.jpg)
I still can’t believe this show made The Question into the defacto main character for an entire season, and then never gave him a speaking roll for the rest of its remaining episodes.
A single line from him in THIS specific episode could have been so golden.
Why in this episode specifically?
I'm just thankful I got introduced to the dulcet tones of Jeffrey Combs' amazing voice acting through JLU.
@@otakutoongamer5616Because not only was Question neck-deep in the whole Cadmus thing, but he'd fit both the theme of the episode (non-powered heroes) AND as someone more closely connected to the main baddie of the episode
He technically did get a few lines in the final season, in the episode where the female members get brainwashed and forced to pit fight (this show is really horny...). I do agree he was largely wasted though. Thankfully the series finale at least least gave us a nice sequence of him using a car to its full potential against hostiles.
@@dDdD-rj7gx gosh watching Question running over parademons in his car was the perfect final scene for him in the show.
Wish he had another episode tho.
General Wade gives off massive Red Hulk/General Ross vibes for obvious reasons but being played by JK Simmons is always a golden way to make me like a character.
He feels like DC's take on the character
@@guilhermehank4938given many people worked for both marvel and DC (including Jack Kirby) it’s understandable though they didn’t make Ross the red hulk til about 10-15 years ago
so he'll go hulk or destroy stuff with Lemons, what a man
@@michaelnally2841 funnily enough I think Red Hulk came out a year or two after this episode
Look up Shaggy Man/The General DC for some insight into this.
Fun fact the character of Spy Smasher is actually now in the public domain. So to all you aspiring comic writers who want to make a Spy Smasher revival comic. Now's your chance.
Spy Smasher vs Anon... make it happen!
Nice
@@notusingmyname4791who's anon?
Their Anon.
With how they change the meaning of smash, it can also be an adult themed comic 😜
"If the devil is patting you on the back as you fight angles at least check to make sure he's not holding a knife to stab you with"
As always, shit goes hard
Right? Holy shit, it gave me shudders
Words to live by.
"angles"? Why would I want to fight against a figure which is formed by two rays or lines that shares a common endpoint?
@@machao195 Hazbin Hotel?
@@machao195 Never underestimate angles, man. I lost a friend to those bastards.
This is one of the best examples of why the dcau was so remarkable. No heavy hitters this episode, no big name celeb super hero villains, no iconic villains. Just fantastic writing and characters. The dcau and this show was so...flawless
Ehhh some parts def had their flaws
@@fenrirsrage4609 I can only think of one flaw but it's not really canon so what are your opinions?
@@fenrirsrage4609 I'll take those flaws ANY DAY over the crap we get today in movies and TV shows from DC (and many other companies while we are at it).
Probably the only well known hero in this episode is probably Green Arrow and that’s it
…it was both a partial adaptation of a comic and a reunion of a then forgotten DC team: Seven Soldiers of Victory
To answer your question about King Arthur, remember that Arthurian legend is often written with parables about chivalry. The most famous among them is probably the Green Knight, in which Sir Gawain's chivalry is tested through multiple trials.
Arthur telling Shining Knight to go massacre innocent civilians just to see if he would is pretty on-brand for a Arthurian test. He wanted to see if he had the moral code to tell his own King "No" if he was given an order to harm the innocent, even if disobedience meant punishment of the worst kind.
I 100% agree it is a test of ones loyalty not for his king, but to the people that he was sworn to protect
It wasn't shown in this video, but Shining Knight said that he could tell that King Arthur was "not himself". So the theory that another poster said, about it being Morgana impersonating King Arthur, is probably correct.
@@jdb2002it’s also possible that word of mouth or letter was misinterpreted by the chain of command and lead to a misunderstanding.
The point is that Shining Knight knew right from wrong and was willing to step down rather than “just follow orders.”
Good thing Arthur wasn't a conquer because that would have been so dumb. One of the first things you learn in the art of war is to have maximum loyalty in your army.
Edit: there was a perfect example in star wars rebels.
@@senister14 King Arthur wasn't real. He was a story with parables to be told.
The reality of chivalry is much like you're saying, unfortunately, but the point of the Arthurian test is that in their world, honor does matter that much. Especially considering that it was the most honorable and chaste of all knights of the round table who eventually found the Holy Grail.
But it does create an interesting thought process. There are many, many times in history where a huge disaster could've been avoided if a man in power was told to shut up or outright assassinated, but because of honor his orders are followed.
I love how Shining Knight, despite having immortality, is still human-level of strength. He keeps on getting hit and brutally near the brink of his end, but he still keeps on fighting because he's willing to die protecting his people rather than live just to be right.
Wait I thought the suit gave him super strength or something-?... I might have heard wrong...
I belive his sword and armor are enchanted but could be wrong@@Micah.Lau.navi.
@@Blaze_Nights Interesting
@Blaze_Nights yeah his weapon and armor is magical and enchanted it makes him more durable and the sword let's him cut through nearly anything
Shining Knight's not immortal. His armor and sword are magically enchanted into being invulnerable, but that's it.
Edit: I checked and while he's not immortal, he aging is apparently slowed down.
Vigilante is not slow on the draw. The Quick Draw is a famous move used by cowboys where they hold their hand over their holsered gun until the last second. Pulling it out and shooting giving the enemy no time to dodge.
And there's still people who can pull it off
The way I saw it he was intentionally waiting for his quickdraw, letting the general get an inkling that he was the weak link, but in reality, Vigilante could probably get the first shot with his quickdraw
By show cowboys, that comed from buffalo bill shows. But regardless, i guess a quickshow would be practical if you can use it to look better while drawing.
Also its a comic, and i bet vigilantes origns is from a cowboy act , if thats what shady implies.
It still would be useful in combat i guess. If from an act basically, also superheroes so, yeah circus tricks help in combat, so, why not.
I mean.... It looks like he already knew... the BULLETS THEY DO NOTHING. So he used his ammo in a Different way, Almost like it was a Complete middle finger to that guy saying guns are bad for heroes.
Before Omni-Man, we had General Wade. Both are voiced by JK Simmons
"I may not be seeing myself on the screen, but I am seeing the representation of the me I like to become." And that's the main thing I miss about superheroes or just media protagonists in general.
I think we need a balance of that. Of seeing who we ARE and who we COULD be, in many different ways.
That's the major flaw in media right now. The people involved in making TV shows, movies, comics, even videogames, want to see THEMSELVES in media, instead of seeing a version of themselves they aspire to. It's all too present tense. It's too "in the now" instead of looking to the future. Instead of looking to what COULD BE.
@@JimiGosu
Or that what they aspire to is garbage.
It's because of the focus on "realism" that became so famous these days.
Personally I think it's actually pessimism disguised as realism.
Being a retired soldier The general was not being a good soldier We're supposed to limit casualties He did not give a f@@k.
Excellent observation, good sir
Good soldiers protect civilians
Well I mean he did
Soldiers are supposed to follow orders and that's it, if you don't you get jailed, demoted and ostracized.
The USA is responsible for countless war crimes commited by soldiers, and never answers for them, considering the 'threat' of an international court to be a terrorist act.
He a damn hypocrite
My favourite part this episode is how the civilians play a huge role in defeating the villain by aiding the heroes and fighting back. I love when superhero stories acknowledge there is something more to average humans than just being some backround characters and props during a battle.
Its a good thing they weren't Marvel universe civilians
@@mizu7662 In the first Avengers movie there is a scene where in Germany an old man stands up to Loki and basically says to him that he isn't the first one to try and conquer.
Oh, and in older Spider-Man movie there that one "Careful, he's a hero" scene".
@@Ajzan1 Outliers exist, but by and large they are jerks. Just look at what the X-Men have to put up with, for example.
reminds me a bit of "Heavy Metal" from STAS. Bruce Timm hated that episode, but i thought it was handled quite well. THere's layers in there.
@@mizu7662 When alone, people feel judged so they do what's perceived as good, perhaps even better than those around them. to stand out. when in a group, people feel like their primary concern is fitting in and following along, so they do whatever the group wants. and like a ouija board, even if no individual is really pushing in any particular direction, results will still follow.
Vigilante not drawing a gun is actually also part of good writing. Considering his cowboy shtick, we can surmise that he is good at quick drawing. And as any person that had anything to do with guns, knows to NEVER POINT GUN AT OTHER PEOPLE OR YOURSELF. So he is showing remarkable self restraint and thoughtfulness.
Also most superheroes in DC and Marvel are essentially regular civilians just with superpowers. Only characters such as Batman or Arrow are truly trained professionals.
Well trained I don't think they have the qualifications to be professionals
Well , I mean certain versions of batman do when he gets deputized by the gcpd
But you get my point
@@plantainsame2049 You don't need to be affiliated with government to be professional. Of course you can be professional cop or firefighter or doctor, but if you lose your job and became criminal you still will be pro in that profession. Plus if you are real pro that is not acknowledged by any official institutions you are not any less pro in knowledge or practice.
Shouldn't vigilante be on that list with batman and arrow I wasn't big into the super hero so I don't know all of the superheroes
@@joseescobedo7899 I guess. May be not god tier of Batman but amongst the top certainly. Difference is Batman can do some effective tricks even against Darkseid, Vigilante struggles with Blockbuster.
Anyone else find it hilarious that General Eiling took and untested human enhancement drug from the 1940's that caused him to IMMEDIATELY mutate horrifically and his first reaction to this was to say to himself "I'm going to go punch the guy that beat Doomsday AND Darkseid into bloody pulps".
The interesting thing about this 'plan' of his is that he doesn't need to win, just seem to give Superman a challenge. No one reasonably expects him to defeat Superman, for just the reasons you pointed out, but him winning the fight isn't his objective. His victory condition, as stated by himself is 'Showing there is someone who can stand up to the League.' and no amount of 'no name heroes' being downed is going to achieve that. (In his view.) Of course, he would take a win if he could get it, but I don't get the impression he thought he'd win the physical fight. It's a hearts and minds campaign (which is ironically appropriate for what disarms him.) and he clearly lost this battle of it.
To be fair, this guy wasn’t thinking rationally at all - this was a conniption fit he was throwing because he couldn’t stand the fact he was already defeated: this was made abundantly clear when a small child was able to point out that he had become the very thing he preaches so much hatred towards.
An enhancement drug made by the god damn Nazis, to be specific
Pretty expected outcome from a clear conservative patriotic nutjob
And the drug was made by the Nazis.
It's the Twilight Zone when Waller is the voice of reason
To be fair, Waller still did some pretty messed up things afterwards, namely the Bat from Brazil- I mean Batman Beyond.
That proves that the general is insane
@alfredhinton8792 that was obvious when he fired a missile at an island with the intent of getting rid of Doomsday Superman and putting an end to drug trafficking that took place on that island.
@@madambutterfly1997 Which also proved that Waller was the less evil one when she got pissed by that decision
@@keithharrissuwignjo2460 she was more or less ahead of the organization and the general undermined her authority. He may have been a senior member, but she was the de facto leader.
This episode centers on Shining Knight and Vigilante for a reason - they're heroes out of time. They are not modern heroes. They are classical heroes who are meant to be role models. Which is literally something the episode lampshades when a member of the crowd says he's a bad role model because he uses guns! Unless I'm missing something, dude who said isn't backing up the elderly woman when she confronts Eiling. The kids he was apparently so concerned about having "good role models" are though.
The show ends with kids imitating Vigilante & Shining Knight because it shows that those heroes, far from their own time, can still resonate with a new generation. That's also the whole point of the first part with Spy Smasher and the conversation between Waller & Eiling. Times are changing, but heroes don't have to.
“Times are changing, but heroes don’t have to.” Man I love this line!
How out of time is Vigilante? He seemed to be a fan of Clint Eastwood movies lol
I'll defend the Spysmasher flashback as foreshadowing about how non-powered humans can still be impactful heroes.
I also like it, because it give the serum a background story. Rather than just feel like a gizmo created just for the episode.
@@haraldbredsdorff2699 agreed plus it’s extremely believable that an evil scientist from that time period Would want to play around with dna after the crazy things that started to pop up in the world even before the justice league was established.
@@haraldbredsdorff2699true
It's a good way to hook the audience in with an action scene, instead of just a army man looking through some papers.
@@ECAPS. That, too.
It's a *superhero* show, we wanna see some *action,* not some army guy reading papers and going "hmm, that seems useful"
I always love when a villain goes with the 'Im going to show the world how dangerous you are. Im here to protect them from you'. And said villain is currently putting people in danger and wrecking a city block.
General: "I'm gonna show them you're the real threat"
Also general: "can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs"
@@2ndtolastform Also General: *Almost kills a teenager*
Uhh... Yeah? one of the civilians points this out, this is even the general's turning point.
@@jikkai_10 Yeah no shit. I'm talking about all the other villains that pull this and don't ever hit a turning point.
Irving also tried to use a Kryptonite coated Thermonuclear missile to destroy a island to defeat Doomsday and didn't care about Superman because he just says "Cadmus would eventually have to fight Superman later line and trying to wipe out smuggler activity despite civilians being evacuated from a volcano.
He's just a old fashioned extreme military commander.
Yeah, I believed superheroes were supposed to inspire us to be better. Not make us feel comfortable staying the way we are.
It's always been of the big differences between DC and Marvel. DC heroes are supposed to inspire us, Marvel heroes are supposed to be relatable.
@@bigshow771And I'd say it's good to have both. It just becomes a problem when we are bombarded with one or the other instead of getting a good balance. And that balance doesn't have to be 50/50. It can change. But too far just alienates half the audience and can become boring for the other half.
@@bigshow771completely wrong
DC heroes are solidly black and white straight cut good and evil
Marvel Heroes are more morally ambiguous
@ashleybanks-wm4cg
Nowadays I find that hard to claim.
It's nowhere near clear-cut now.
"it took me five years to learn english im gonna use it" acutally killed me lol
Nice PfP
@@kanvaros4451 same to you you got great taste
Bro, you schizo? Talking to yourself?
I'm not judging, I'm jost worried for your mental health
"All thanks to today's sponsor Babble!"
That whole sequence was awesome.
It's a military General voiced by JK Simmons he's as strong as he needs to be and if the plot needs him to one shot a guy wearing a helmet and by God he's going to do it
This explanation is acceptable.
@@ShadyDoorags He also played Omni-Man in Invincible.
@@AzureIVBruh he knows. He literally made a joke about it in the vid lmao
@@AzureIV he also played Cave Johnson from Portal
Just thinking of it, the General being voiced by JK Simmons... I wouldn't be surprised that if we had J. Jonah Jameson obtain superpowers and start trying to beat up Spider-Man, it would probably end up just like in this episode.
at 15:45 Shining Knight is telling Iling how he disobeyed King Arthers command to wipe out a village but refused. In another episode, he is telling a story to Vigalate and another hero (can't remember which one) about how he discovered that Morgan Le Fey had used magic to adopt Arthur's form. Given these small moments are only episodes apart it could be very likely that Shining Knight is talking about the same event to Iling here. Morgan Le Fey posing as King Arthur gave Shining Knight the order to kill the villages, but he refused and when King Arthur was doing damage control after the deception was discovered he thanked Shining Knight for not going through with it.
Just some food for thought
Interesting I didn't catch that when I watched JLU recently.
*lying*
Fun Fact: Those kids are also obscure DC characters, the Newsboy Legion
And connected to project Cadmus. They freed Superboy.
@@drewneedsmoresleep6680 yeah, and also Cadmus cloned them, apparently
Ever since I found out about them during YJ season 3, I've been seeing them everywhere. Well, basically here and My Adventures with Superman but I didn't know who they were back when I watched this episode in the early 00s
@@drewneedsmoresleep6680 The comics version of Cadmus was somewhat OK with a couple secret mad scientists in the ranks. The original Newsboy Legion were some of the main scientists and the "current" (1990s) Newsboy Legion were their clones. Guardian, Jim Harper, was also a clone of the original, who operated out of Cadmus.
Same with the reporters
For the VA's, also props to Vigilante's actor, Nathan Fillion.
I *knew* I couldn't have been the only one who recognised that firefly drawl!
…he was also Spy Smasher
And now he got promoted to most iconic voice of Col. Hal Jordan callsign "Highball" and he's also playing in live action Guy Gardner in the new DCU.
Nathan Fillion can play two GL's apparently...and in 2009 he also got the honor of being Col. Steve Trevor...that's like getting Dana Delaney all over again for anyone in the Lois Lane role.
I believe he also plays The ?
@@staffy73 The Question? Nah, that was Jeffrey Coombs
"HOW IS THE COWBOY SLOWEST ON THE DRAW?!"
You fool! That's his iaido stance!
One thing I especially liked about this episode is the children. They're not just throwing rocks. They're throwing pieces of steel rebar--one boy is on his knees because he can't get enough leverage. Another boy is hefting up a piece of concrete that he's visibly struggling with. They're pushing themselves to their limits to try to protect others--and they're only nine years old!
Honestly if those boys were my kids I'd be worried out of my dang mind but also so god darn proud
That's the Newsboy Legion there, they were sidekicks to the Guardian (Jim Harper) who protected Metropolis in the days before Superman.
Tommy Thompkins is the leader and the one who looks a bit like Wally Cleaver, he never had a codename but I like to call him "Headlines".
Then there's Antonio "Big Words" Rodriguez (glasses), Pat "Scrapper" McGuire (ginger), John "Gabby" Gabberrelli (the boy with the turtleneck who sounds like Tennyson/Turner) and later we see in the crowd shot other members such as Bobbi "Famous" Harper (the girl) and Walter "Flip" Johnson Jr. (the African American boy).
@@Superlad9494 Shady is right, there are a lot of references.
@@alexthekiddo10 This episode acts as one of the throwback to the golden age episodes...there were quite a lot of those...especially when the episodes called for focus on Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern, Black Canary and Hawkwoman...specifically Hawkwoman because can you really do anything golden age without thinking of a Hawk Family family member first when it comes to someone that isn't one of the Big 3?
Interestingly- If Justice League had gotten a season 6 instead of ending at 5 (because it really should have *I consider Unlimited a subtitle, and so do many of the producers including Bruce Timm according to an old toonzone interview at the Justice League Watchtower), that season was possibly going to focus on throwbacks and time travel at least that's what many of the team wanted to do if it happened...so we probably would have gotten a JSA episode, a multiverse episode with the classic original 7 (and had it been mentioned that Earth-508 was one of the worlds that Earth-0's founding line-up had saved during some untold event) and possibly even some Titans since Titans was ending around the same time...granted, Nightwing and Tim couldn't have been used due to Nightwing being on The Batman as Robin (and later Nightwing in the future, just like Babs got to be both Batgirl and Oracle with similar rules), but we could have probably at least gotten some form of a Titans roster at the time since Wally could have easily done the cameo on TT and went back to JL had it continued...just like how Speedy was used on both shows. My guess is that the roster we would have gotten as a callback would have been a Grayson/Drake split since "anyone who was heroic was automatic league unless directly called a Teen Titan" on Earth-508. The League Titans? Hawk, Dove, Founding Leaguer Wally, Supergirl, Kyle Rayner, Speedy, Tempest, and maybe Donna...depending on how long they spent wondering why she of all women caused that embargo.
This is the same reason why Saitama from One Punch Man respects Mumen Rider so much.
Well he also got Saitama free Odens so yeah, best bros. And a side not only Saitama but all Tanktop Master's crews respect him after the incidents of Garou. There are also Fang and King though the manga does not make it obvious.
@@zeroakira584 Wasn't it members of the Tanktop Army that were being smug elitist pricks who rallied a mob to call Saitama a phony? If so, I need to watch season 2 for the ass whoopin they must've gotten saved from that would ever change the minds of such clowns.
@@darwinxavier3516 After the martial art monster incident where the monster association attacked a hospital, Mumen Rider stood side by side with Tanktop Master to fought them off with other non-hero characters, which suprise Tanktop Master as the guy thought how the heck did Mumen Rider keep up with him and also warned him to not overextend himself because he was not wearing a tanktop like they did.
@@darwinxavier3516 watch it
Speaking of references, those four little boys are an obscure group called the Newsboy Legion. Also, the 7 specific Leaguers chosen for this episode (Stargirl, STRIPES, Green Arrow and Speedy, Crimson Avenger, Vigilante and Shining Knight) are a modern version of an obscure team called the Seven Soldiers of Victory.
Well, as mr doorags said "blink and you'll miss a reference when it comes to this show"
Heard one time "DC is full of the heroes we want to be, Marvel is full of heroes we would be." And yet, these days it seems like both have suffered from writers with the viewpoint of "The world is too dark for anyone to be a true shining light." But for this episode itself, I love it because it does show the true spirit of a hero. One Punch Man did the same thing with Muman Rider in the fight against the Sea King. I'm not caught up on manga, but that scene in the anime goes hard.
I'm not up on Manga either but I know a couple of things that make this discussion funny. Manga is out selling comics. They do it in part by having those selfless heroes even when the worlds are darker. You mentioned One Punch Man. My Hero Academia is big with a lead that is getting destroyed by his powers. Using them breaks down his body but he uses them anyway because he wants to help so bad. Not sure how the comic companies haven't caught on yet.
Even anime is going this way, jjk, Aot, chainsaw man, making people bad for no reason at all or even worse killing off the good characters for shock value, hell even mha did it
Yeah, at first I thought it was a thing with them trying to make each hero more "relatable". People are complex, messy and flawed, so heroes that are too are more engaging. But then I realized that this misses a point in humanity: we change and can be good. Take Spider-Man, it has repeatedly be a theme with him that "anybody could have gotten bitten and been a hero", that Peter was a shining paragon of virtue that real people can't ever be, it was that even a petty nerd could find the drive to do good and become a hero. That's what I think is the problem now, not that the heroes have flaws, but that there is a pessimism that a regular person would never stick their neck out for another person or try to do good jist for the sake of it.
I liked Mumen Rider, too. He does what he can to help, regardless of his limitations.
Maybe something will happen, and he will be able to ride his bicycle like the Flash, only faster 😉
@@Scyon13 although there are very popular manga with dark worlds and plots, there's still lots of more light hearted ones.
Also I imagine others will say this but Shining Knight's little speech to Eling "There it is. The creeping moral decay of the past 500 years." That one line feels more topic now than it did when this episode premiered. How did we fall so far from the?
It's because Shining Knight's morality is something that he had to cultivate. That village he was commanded to slay was probably a patsy/false flag to prove that he had integrity. Gawain went through his own test against The Green Knight. King Arthur likely had several tests, just as modern society doesn't demand nearly as much.
@@omegaminoseer4539 I would say it less about the tests of modern society and more about how he is from the idealistic story of King Arthur and today in the more realistic sense people who choose morality are punished. For instance do you stay at the job that is paying you and breaking labor laws or do you try to hop to another job that is most likely doing the same or has some other issue? As well, he was born a noble along with the other knights, none that I know of were born of the common folk all were born with the privilege of choice. Sorry for the semi political rant.
Because Arthur was a story, not real life. We have always been this way, granted we do have more honorable moments that inspires stories like that with ideals. But we don't really honor them like we should. We didn't 500 years ago and we don't now.
The frustrating part isn't that things still suck, things have always sucked
What's annoying is that NEW things suck, so we somehow fixed old things, but we didn't think to keep the good old parts? and we somehow can't figure out how to just... shift back to those? while still keeping the fixed parts fixed.
@@Ashbrash1998 that's where it gets complicated there was a person around that time that matches the depiction of Arthur but the dude wasn't early British he was Roman and there's also the fact that he could have just been an amalgamation of several people enforcing their positive traits and the fact Excalibur is infact a miss translation of a Welsh word caliburn which means pointed object
"I'm making the mother of all omletes here Star Girl, can't worry about every broken egg!"
Cue "It has to be this way"
I legit lost my shit when he said that. Senator Armstrong over here.
Shining Knight: Not when thou are just 'following orders', right? What would you know about following orders? You weren't given foul commands. You never questioned your choices. You do not know what it is like to have your loyalty to your nation and your morality challenged!
It’s also worth pointing out the subtext in this episode of government overreach in the name of national security - the title directly addresses the Patriot Act, which provided the American government with more tools than ever to spy on citizens without being held accountable thanks to secret courts (FISA) that issued secret warrants to surveil the public at large. The, “How many of us do you have to kill in order to save us?” could easily be translated via subtext to, “How much power do you need before _you_ become what you sought to destroy?”
Correct. It was an ill-advised tactic by George Bush to fight legitimate terrorism that at the time was threatening the U.S. but under hussein obama's regime, even though the threat had already been neutralized, the patriot act was expanded to the extreme, intending to spy on & censor citizens in violation of the U.S. constitution.
Let's be frank, George Bush was kind of dumb but he had good intentions. In contrast, hussein was a complete pile and had only the worst intentions, hence the outcome.
Dead on the money there pal.
This episode makes me miss when sacrificing your own citizens' wellbeing for "the greater good" was something to stand up against, not cheer on
This old man standing up to Loki remains an iconic MCU scene, despite being a decade old. Flawed is fun, but excellence and courage is timeless.
I'd never heard of Shining Knight or Vigilante but this episode instantly made me a fan of both of them, which is impressive since in the end they a just two dudes who are really good with weapons. Though I understand that's the point and makes the two of them quite badass.
Well shining night has a magical armor that makes him almost invulnerable and a sword that can cut through anything so he is more like and enhanced human
i did a li research and dc already panderized shining knight into being a she-it
The only Vigilante I knew was an 80s hero who didn't have a cowboy theme. I never read any of his stories but I liked the costume in the ads.
@@toniotrussardi8126 Justin was from one time, Justina from another. It wasn't considered pandering at the time. Arthurian lore had a few female knights in it who did the Mulan thing. Justina was considered legacy at the time...not really pandering as no big deal was ever made about Justina other than just "oh hey, she's like Stargirl, a girl using a golden age codename."
Where there's been the biggest (and somewhat unneccessary) commotions have been Alan Scott and Jon Kent....and mostly over Jon. The reason for this was because they're two Big Name Heroes...big names get more attention. You don't have to like choices made to fictional characters even if they're iconic ones, but you don't need to throw a fit about it either...simply make your own characters with your own stories instead.
As a veteran, I have long been of the opinion that NOT all superheroes need PTSD in their backstory. It certainly works for Wolverine and Captain America, because their PTSD is not characterized AS a superpower OR a character flaw. It is treated as a disability that they live with.
However, if you give the same trauma to young Clark Kent, it is little wonder that he would actually be moralizing about saving the lives of a busload of kids from DROWNING. Lookin at you, Man Of Steel :(
Patriot Act is EASILY my personal favorite from JL.
Great job.
Further proof that Zach Snyder is markedly overrated.
its why Darkhawk and Tigra as some of my favorite heroes. Darkhawk has 2 living parents but one is framed as a corrrt cop so the first arc is his mom trying to provide for 3 boys, while working as a lwer to clear her husband and Darkhawk waffeling back and forth on if his dad reayy is corrupt as he unconvers the truth and lerns his powers
Thats not to say clark hasnt trauma, he has, but he is really dealing well with all the loss.
@@marocat4749 Clark DOESN'T have trauma. His parents died when he was a baby, but the Kents gave him such a good upbringing that their adopted son thought of himself as a man and NOT a god. The Kents taught him to be grounded and humble. Something else that Snyder messed up horribly.
@@ericdierolf8929 Ok then he had more to reasons to have trauma and he , i would argue hangs on kypton to a fair bit because of that loss, but deals with it motivating him. I would argue its still trauma, its just , also good dealing without letting it , like deals really healthy.
He can move on but i would argue he still, has some trauma. He just doesnt let it stop him from being healthy.
He is still human, he still asks himself about krypton and , where he comes from. And Trauma hasnt to be disabilitating, or big, to be trauma personally.
I think in the for the man who has everything it shows, yes it does get to him, yes he is vunerable there, but he as earnest tackles with that so that it doesnt become unhealthy.
I'd like to take this moment for a nod to DCAU Amanda Waller and even some of her other incarnates. A cut throat, no-nonsense character who believed, to her core, that the Justice League was a threat to her country and furthermore, the planet. Later in life she began to slowly recognize where she had been wrong and spent her twilight years correcting what she could. A solidly written and underappreciated character arc.
Edit: Vigilante is voiced by Nathan Fillion and therefore a Superer Superman.
A Marry-Sue is perfect at whatever it wants to do. A hero strives live up to its ideals with whatever its got.
In addition, the plot is centered around the Mary Sue
@@emanuelrojas2the general?
@@bibigamer502 I think what they're saying is that a mary sue is a perfect character whom also controls the plot, they are able to drive the plot forward without the actions or speech of any other character on screen.
I would more say a Mary Sue is a character that can’t do no wrong in the eyes of the world they are in. Whatever mistake they make is easily forgiven or any battle is looked favorably for them.
Which is why the heroes of today must feel like they have to be assholes in order for the writers to go “see? It’s not a Mary Sue, they have flaws.” When it’s not even the flaws at this point. If you make the hero more disliked than the villain then you are failing at a simple task. The heroes in this episode showed that while they struggle and were even defeated, their heroism still won the day. Something that’s actually satisfying to see.
@jacobfoxfires9647 Agreed, flaws should have effect to them.
I really like J.K Simmons character General Wade Eiling in this. He's a decidedly lawful evil villain, which I always appreciate, and he still somewhat reasonable. Him not killing the soldier because he respected that he was following orders, giving Shining Knight multiple opportunities to surrender, actually listening to the civilians and recognizing his hypocrisy at the end makes me wish we had more characters like him in media. He literally won at the end and had the heroes dead to rights, but was persuaded by a bunch of powerless civilians to show mercy and actually did. Villains that genuinely hold virtues like loyalty, duty and honesty in high regards despite being evil and/or misguided are really easy to root for.
More Lawful Neutral over evil, think Judge Dredd vs Palpatine.
@@Demortra Yeah considering that his #1 gripe with the JL is that they have too much power. Like he's almost militantly neutral, feeling that nobody should be allowed power and he'll use his power to kill anyone who does. Real Brotherhood of Steel shiz.
@@KairuHakubi Nobody other than the United States government, you mean. But otherwise, I agree. It reminds me a bit of those templars from "Jumper."
"You are an abomination. Only God should have the power to be everywhere at once."
"Its a different world. Learn to live in it."
Technically he did, by becoming part of that world.
Something I like about this episode is that it's about two heroic archetypes (the knight and the cowboy) squaring up with an end-justifies-the-means villain. Two bastions of unflinching virtue against someone who will sacrifice virtue for victory.
I really enjoyed that fact as well. Just like you said I love how it was a call back to the older heroic archetype before the age of superheroes. While I know these two have their own comics and are heroes in their own right. It’s still an awesome detail.
I love Shining Knight and Vigilante's friendship in this series and I wish we got to see more of it.
that is defiantly done on purpose too.
It's also kind of a great example of contrasts. A knight is the upright, moral hand of a just ruler. Vigilante, by definition and aesthetics, is effectively an outlaw, the hand raised in defiance of an unjust ruler. Both of them equally reject the ends-justifies-means mindset.
Shining is like Lawful Good
Vigilante is Chaotic Good
Eiling is Neutral Good
I don't think the thing with SpySmasher wasn't just to pad time, but it more sets up the overall theme. A powerless hero saving the day, even if nobody really knew him
Old Comic Book Fan here. A little background:
The heroes sent weren't just picked willy-nilly. In the comics, they (Green Arrow & Speedy, Vigilante, Shining Night, Star Spangled Kid, Stripsey and the Crimson Avenger) were a group originally from Earth-2 called the "Seven Soldiers of Victory". One member is missing, though. The Crimson Avenger's sidekick, Wing, sacrificed his life to save the world from a world destroying villain.
The kids (as someone mentioned earlier), were a group called the Newsboy Legion, most famously reused from the WWII era in Superman's Pal Jimmy Olson, by the late great Jack Kirby. Side note: This is also where his famous "Fourth World" (Highfather and New Genesis and Darkseid and Apokolips) got its start.
Finally, General Eiling. Originally a protagonist on the original DC version of Captain Atom, Eiling had fatal cancer and had his brain transplanted into an immortal Justice League antagonist called the Shaggy Man. Now going by the name "The General", Eiling had himself completely shaved (the Shaggy Man made a Sasquatch look bald) and attacked the Justice League.
I love this episode. "You wanted Superman, now you got... The Crimson Avenger and my ex-sidekick."
"ex-partner"
"Speedy, do we have to do this now?!"
Lol
“You’re the only one with super powers”
Getting checked by kid, 😂
A kid who is part of the paper too. I mean he's part of the Newsboy Legion...sidekicks to the Guardian...as well as back in the day sort of being the fanclub for Perry White, Billy Batson, Freddy Freeman and Lois Lane....the two toughest reporters that ever were...and there's no way a kid who's a fanboy of top notch reporters like that doesn't know how to use their words to check somebody...especially not when their codename is "Gabby"
The Spy Smasher mission was also a reference to the Captain Nazi character who was a super soldier villain in pre-crisis DC comics.
Pre-Crisis Fawcett before DC bought them out. Captain Nazi was Billy's villain done exclusively to keep Billy out of Berlin as the Captain for the same reason they had to keep Superman out of Berlin...and they made him be the reason Freddy became Captain Jr/Lieutennant Marvel and his brother Kit became Kid Eternity.
I love how Eiling's response to having lost the argument is just to go "you'll all be sorry!" and storm off never to be seen or heard from again.
To be fair, Waller's response to losing an argument was "Suck it up".
Someone mentioned that he helped with the parademons off screen
He comes back in the tie in comics.
Yeah. Because he realized he could be wrong and just said "Aight. But if I was right, I was right. Then I'll be back to try to clean the mess."
Fun fact: The cast of this episode is the lineup of the Seven Soldiers of Victory from the Golden Age.
Stargirl serves as the modern equivalent of Star Spangled Kid (he had multiple names over time), and Pat is here as S.T.R.I.P.E. instead of his Golden Age alias Stripesy, but otherwise, an exact match including Crimson Avenger and Speedy.
This episode is fantastic.
I heard that they wanted to include Robin here, but couldn't because of the Bat-Embargo. am I thinking of a DIFFERENT episode where they were homaging a classic team that included Robin? I know he was left out of "For the Man Who Has Everything" but I could have sworn there was some team like this that had Robin in it, and a bunch of nobodies.
@KairuHakubi Considering what we wound up with, adding Robin wouldn't make much sense. He was not a member of the Seven Soldiers of Victory, and Robin does not have anywhere near the level of "Who even are you?" energy everyone else here has.
@@Excellsion I could have sworn I read something like that. That Golden Age Robin was pals with Speedy and Star-Spangled Kid. Ugh this is going to drive me nuts now. Did... Speedy ever show up again? was that it?
@@KairuHakubi Yeah. Speedy showed up for one episode, got beat up, and was never mentioned again
@KairuHakubi I'm pretty sure this was Speedy's only Justice League appearance. He appeared a couple of times on Teen Titans, looking almost exactly the same.
It's possible that in an earlier draft they wanted to use Robin, but when they found out they couldn't, they realized that with an unitrucive introduction of Speedy, they could maintain a no powers* squad that happened to be the Seven Soldiers of Victory.
But I don't recall Golden Age Robin interacting with non Batman characters much. Something to do with "diluting sales." I.e., Superman and Batman were on the first lineup of the Justice League, but were forbidden from making appearances on covers, and the Seven Soldiers of Victory were from like a decade prior to that.
Eiling is the epitome of "You have become the very thing you swore to destroy." Even prior to his mutations, he was moving like a supervillain, ordering the military to nuke Superman and innocent people and other kinds of stuff. Amanda Waller has more honor and common sense than Eiling frankly, which isn't saying a lot as she tried to order 2 innocent people killed so their kid could be traumatized like Batman and hopefully turn out like Bruce but still. The guy's absolutely a greater threat to humanity than the Justice League, and this episode where he just beats tf out of powerless human heroes absolutely shows it, banger of an episode and keep up the good work!
5:47 Omg 💀💀💀💀💀💀
deep cut, "Goodbye, Old Friend. In The End, The World Didn't Really Need A Superman. Just A Brave One."
In Boot Camp, part of our training is being able to recognize “unlawful” orders. If we believe an order is unlawful and should not be followed, we can bring it up to a higher officer with no reprisal.
But in Shining Knights case if the King tells you to do something, it should be a lawful order. Because the king himself decreed it. So Eiling should be going by that understanding.
The other perspective could be Eiling's older and when the show came out he should be a soldier from the Vietnam era or before. So he was trained and ingrained the idea that disobeying an order despite being "unlawful" is just the weakness seeping into the military.
Take the jab, soldier.
No.
And the government took that personally.
No official reprisal. I'm sure there's a lot of unofficial reprisal.
@@SubzeroBlack68 I love how much this adds to the episode
@@dansmith1661 The government giving a legal, tested, safe shot to prevent illness isn't an illegal order dipstick.
The Spy Smasher scene is used to further emphasize the episode's theme of the corruption of morality. It's a black and white scene with a black and white example of a good man fighting evil people to protect his nation, which cuts to Eiling. Eiling is, in contrast, a man wanting to do good for his nation, but is corrupted by Cold War era paranoia that leads him to commit evil even at the expense of the people he claims he want to protect.
Superheroes are modern day myths. As the Babylonians had Enki, the Greeks had Hercules, and we have Batman. Mythology is an integral part of our humanity, whether we're cave men, or modern day agrarians. Times change, but humanity doesn't. We still need stories that inspire us, that carry our morals, that teach us valuable lessons on the human condition.
It’s Heracles, Hercules is Roman
@@dante_0962same guy different name I looked it up there the same character but interpreted by different cultures.
@@michaeltaylor788 and Wonder Woman would rather everyone forgot about her bratty cousin.
@@Superlad9494 what cousin?.
@@michaeltaylor788 the one calling himself "Harold Champion" of course...and yes that guy deserves a non-braceleted slap to the face for the stunts he pulled....including working with a witch just so she didn't have to adapt to a new lady in the Wonder suit once...like Donna said once "they better be glad she plays a lot nicer than Diana has to these days...because there was a time when Diana did play nice, but the 90's got to her like it did to Bruce and Clark."
Fun fact the writers considered Green Arrow to be like the 8th member of the league in unlimited
He IS the official unofficial 8th member
Batman: "Quis custodiet ipsos custodies?"
Green Arrow: "Who guards the guardians?" (pause to look at his friends) "We've got it covered."
I thought that was Aquaman since he was on the roster in that episode where Superman got sent to the future.
@@battlesheep2552Lobo was the replacement member not Aquaman
@@psicoparkita Lobo would have been asked to leave either way. Lobo was never officially a member of the league. Aquaman was operating as the on/off eighth member...a sort of co-founder during multiple just league episodes. All Lobo really did was just declare himself in when he wasn't really, and J'onn would have kicked him out regardless of whether or not Superman returned. The only viable options considered were
Supergirl (Hawkwoman's choice)
Aquaman (Wally, John, Martian Manhunter, even if Wally hated Aquaman's 90's attitude like the rest of us did.)
Batman going full-time (Wonder Woman).
The final vote via Hereafter's conclusion where Savage wasn't stopped showed Aquaman ultimately became the eighth member in this timeline either way as he was recruited shortly after the Thanagarian invasion and began becoming less of a jerk by the time of "Destroyer". Green Arrow acted as an alternate eigth during Unlimited as did Black Canary since this show follows Post-Crisis continuity in a very loose way and Post-Crisis placed Canary as Eighth founder present at the Appellaxian Invasion...and operating in Wonder Woman's place in the early days just like how Green Arrow acted as Batman's daylight budget replacement...and how J'onn would get more active use since the big 3 would say "oh we're busy with ongoing problem at same time as league business" frequently...although Wonder Woman at least tried to make time for both league business and keep her beat if she could.
During those early days though...
Gotham is more than enough reason for Batman to be busy...that place is a pit.
Superman usually got tied up with intergalactic threats that didn't require Hal, Guy and John to deal with.
Wonder Woman- Amazon issues, but not as much.
If you loose your powers without a certain "object", (ring, staff, magic item, armor...) Then you do not have superpowers. You may use them, but you don't "have " them.
Your overall point is great.
First time on your channel and I am really liking it.
Personally, I feel that if the object in question follows certain rules , that person does or does not have superpowers like how easy is it to take and keep the object?
For instance, a GL ring is fairly easy to remove, but since they have the ability to call it back to their finger (sometimes), I consider them to have superpowers
@@Overload3210 I can see your point, but still, without the ring he is just a normal dude. He doesn't have superpowers, he controls a super tool/weapon.
"I feel there's an obvious joke that i could make here about J.K. Simmons solo-ing earth protectors, but my brain is not connecting the dots, complete train-wreck up there"
chuckles*
I think this is my favorite version of Waller like they make a good character with Justified motives and character arc that makes sense instead of just being someone who doesn’t listen to reason and is just straight of up evil
This is the only version of Waller that I don't want to strangle
@@keithharrissuwignjo2460 This based off some older comic versions of her. Back when she was just "The Wall" she wasn't too bad. Nowadays though? They have made her pure evil for the sake of being evil, and that isn't Waller damn it. I guess she can only be good when C.C.H. Pounder is doing her voice.
Yeah she should be the personification of "necessary evil", the one who does the dirty work that needs doing
Waller's depiction in JL is the only one I'll accept. She learns her lesson (though it's not easy) and she becomes better, but she still has the same goal she always had. She'll still do at best questionable things to meet her goals, but she is willing and even eager to take the higher road when it's offered.
16:05 Retired Air Force here. Yes we are trained and have avenues for reporting and not following unlawful orders especially if it endangers US Civilians or goes against the Constitution.
But there is truth in the myth, the US military has a “Good old Boys and Girls Club” and “We all on the same team” mentality. So the moment you report it, especially if it gets enough attention from the right higher ups or the right congress men or women, you in the US Military are seen as not in “The Club” or not “on
the same team”. At best the rest of your time in will be a living hell being ostracized, over look or denied promotions, and if you’re lucky maybe move to a new command that doesn’t really know what happened or doesn’t care and things somewhat go back to normal. At worst the military finds a excuse, even if it severely, sometimes even criminally, blown out portions, take out of context, is just a technicality or a nit-pick, or worse just made up and kicked out and will try to screw you out of your VA benefits
Thank you. I’m glad to know at least someone in the comments has pointed this issue out.
Club=corrupt
Real heroes don't hear no bell.
Randy Marsh
Truly, the worst part of seeing the world in only grey is that one can't tell between darkness and light.
I'm sure someone said that before me, but I'll say it anyways. Cause it's not just heroes being turned into jerks, but villains being turned into heroes. Doesn't matter how sad Cruella's backstory is, she still wants to steal and skin puppies for a coat.
Also, I have to disagree with the intro being 'pointless'. Not only is it a great showcase of a hero with 'to my knowledge' no powers taking on the bad guys, but it is another showcase of how far Eiling has lost it. Rather than seeing a hero defeating 'WW2 Germans', he only cares for the serum.
The sad irony of modern times is that we are consistently told to look at the world in black and white for subjects and events that have nuance and grey, and then told to view the world as grey for black and white moral matters.
@@hariman7727 If you see the world in black and white, it is always possible to consider that something could be black _and_ white--meaning, grey. If you see the world as _only_ shades of grey, then there can never be black or white in the first place. That's key. In our rush to prevent mistaken (and dangerous) B&W thinking, we have created two new monstrosities: the "everything is grey so what difference does it make?" nihilist, and then head-in-the-sand ostrich who desperately clings to anything anyone says that might bring back the clean simplicity of unconsidered B&W thinking.
In reality, at best only a few things are totally, unquestionably jet-black without the tiniest hint of warrant or virtue, and fewer still are pure-white without the tiniest fleck of grey. But that doesn't mean that snow and coal are equivalent. We have been reminded to hell and back that an enforced righteousness is a false righteousness. Now we need to stand back up and say that that doesn't mean _no one is ever righteous._ It means we must be vigilant, always. Evil wears many masks, and even good people feel temptation. We should not conclude that that means everyone is always horrible forever. We should conclude that that means trust, respect, and authority must be earned.
@@ZekeRaiden THIS is what I miss from comics and superheroes in general. Yes, sometimes they DO screw up. I think this is what was meant in the bit about King Arthur telling Shining Knight 'thank you' for not following his order to slaughter the town of civilians. The question isn't why'd he order his knight to do something like that - it's the fact that nobody's perfect, not the leaders OR the heroes - but Arthur's relief is that his bad judgment call didn't result in everyone in that town dying that he was thanking Justin for. It's understanding that you screwed up, admitting that, and trying to do better in the future, that people have lost sight of. Sometimes the good guys HAVE to stop the dam from exploding and wiping out a whole town, even if that means they miss the chance to keep little Timmy from getting hit by truck-kun because the driver was panicking while evacuating. The thing that separates heroes NOW from heroes THEN, is that they USED to at least feel some kind of guilt that they couldn't save EVERYBODY, and would do what they could to make things right as best they could. That's the cross they bear: even if they COULD make the choice again, they have to live with the knowledge that they still have to do whatever saves more innocent lives, even if they KNOW some lives will be sacrificed in that goal.
@@lstcloud Me and fans have theorized that this was a test by Arthur in that he wasn't looking for a obedient soldier but a good man who was one of the few who deserved to be called a knight and Justin passed with flying colors. The dialogue between Justin and Eiling proves this might have been the case.
Eiling/Blockbuster: "Then you failed at being a good soldier."
Justin/Shining Knight: "Arthur thanked me you oaf had I been wrong I would've willingly hanged up my sword and left the court in shame."
In fact most of my friends who are currently in the military tell me part of the so-called Soldier's Oath is "the moral obligation to refuse and call out orders given by superiors that he or she have concrete evidence proving said order is a morally unjust order."
"Save yourself the Hospital trip, give me the pictures of spiderman"
We shouldn't ever see ourselves in a superhero; we should see who we _wish_ we were.
It's just too bad that for every person that wants to be Batman, there are 1000 people that want to be Bruce Wayne.
Fr, all the batman fanboys always using the same fking excuse of *"wiTh Enough pReptIme, I caN BEat aNyone"*
For me, it's wanting to be an Ozymandias from Watchmen, for a guy like me should be willing to commit a costly sin so to create a truly better world, even if it only lasts a millennium.
“How many of us do you have to kill to make us feel safe?” I feel if they ever do Cadmus in a live action DC film they need something like that!
I tried to make that quote go viral back in 2014, back when Ferguson was the newest thing to happen, before Black Lives Matter even started. Needless to say, it did not. The post was that screen capture and quote, labeled *"Ferguson, St. Louis, Missouri - August 9, 2014 - Colorized"* peak 2014 tumblr humor... and nothing. IDK, I guess like 99.9% of attempted memes don't go viral, I should just accept that.
Calling out the military abuse in the USA and their war crimes ON A MAINSTREAM FILM? Good luck with that
This was one of my most memorable episodes. As a comic book fan, I was familiar with every obscure superhero before I started watching the show, including Spy Smasher. As a tween, I was really into X-Force, Youngblood, and the early 90s grim 'n gritty superheroes, but Kingdom Come brought me back into what I loved about superheroes as a kid, the idea that superheroes inspired you to be better in ways you actually can, to help people, not just to be violent and vengeful. Like Kingdom Come, this JLU episode utilized obscure superheroes we hadn't seen in a while and showed us how ordinary people could make a difference.
I'm glad they were brave enough to name the epidsode "The Patriot Act" since you could draw so many parrels from that horrible destruction of freedom under the guise of "protection" and what cadmus and ESPECIALLY the military general does/thinks
Sidenote: I love the easter egg of this Speedy having not only the same design, but same VA as Speedy in the Teen Titans show, except he looks a bit older here.
I knew him as Jak from Jak and Daxter
i mean, in terms of his VA, back then DCAU was VERY set on characters having consistent VAs between as many things as humanly possible
Shady: "How is the cowboy the slowest on the draw?"
Me: "How many answers do you want?"
1) He's being a good role model with a gun and demonstrating basic firearm safety by not pointing his gun at anything until he knows what it is, what's behind it, and that he's willing to use potentially lethal force against it.
2) Quick in the draw; slow in the head. Quick drawing is a party trick for rodeos and circuses, not an actual combat maneuver. Several great gunfighters from the old west have shared the opinion that taking the time to think and plan where to shoot is far better than shooting first.
3) The common rule amongst cowboys was that drawing before your opponent put you at fault for any damages.
Allow me to offer a counter arguement to that last point, at least.
Eiling has already wrecked a parade and nearly killed several civilians WITH HIS LANDING.
So the thing is, stargirl gets her powers from her staff, and her belt. Her belt gives her the strength and durability.
Shining Knight: "I doth not hear no bell"
I love this episodes use of a version of the Seven Soldiers Of Victory of all characters to show heroes just being heroic, good people. They’re really old characters back from the JSA era and other than the Stargirl legacy and Green Arrow, they’ve mostly faded into obscurity, only getting occasionally used in something like the Stargirl tv show. They’re in that perfect sweet spot to highlight heroes being good just because it’s the right thing to do, since many heroes back in their day weren’t very complicated and were just good people, while also being obscure enough to hammer the point home that you don’t have to be the biggest heroes in the world to inspire others and do the right thing. This is one of those moments where everything just falls into place so perfectly and was always a highlight of JLU.
It also highlights how most of the Seven Soldiers represent classic hero archetypes like cowboys and knights.
i love how normal people got involved in impactful ways in the 90's batman and super man and justice league and unlimited, though its weird that speedy shows up in this show once which i only knew of him due to teen titans yet nightwing never does aside from a cameo in green arrow and black canary's episode trying to keep huntress from killing a mob boss
For the record, this LU episode was based on a classic Golden Age story in which the Seen Soldiers of Victory -- Green Arrow and Speedy, the Star-Spangled Kid and Stripesy, the Vigilante, the Crimson Avenger and Sir Justin the Shining Knight -- had to fight a supervillain who was many leaps and bounds out of their league -- not Wade Eiling the Gray Hulk, but a cosmic entity called the Nebula Man.
Alongside the auxillary members, Lee's sidekick Wing, Sir Justin's sidekick Squire and Vigilante's sidekick Stuff.
Sadly...Wing How the "Eighth Soldier" did not return from this fight, but since he did not return, it allowed Green Arrow and Speedy to return to their real time and TNT and Dyna-Mite joined the team afterward.
Nathan Fillion voicing Viglante is what caused me to seek out another episode featuring him, I love him
He also voiced Steve Trevor really well. Which reminds me of how much Shady needs to do a video about the animated Wonder Woman movie, it's seriously underrated.
It's one of the sources of Vigilante's rizz.
9:29
Sir Justin is probably a knecht - a regular armoured warrior wealthy enough to pay for his own horse and armour, around the 9th-10th centuries (the time in which the folk tales of king Arthur would have reached their peak, prior to transcription into books) - meaning he really _would_ be uncomfortable getting paraded about like a horse at market, because in his time he'd have been the wealth equivalent of The Guy Who Owns A Small Family Business. Better off than most people, owner of at most one or two farms, but still nothing on the vast wealth of later Knights, who owned stretches of land large enough to contain entire local dialects.
9:51
Vigilante is doing Quickdraw - he's not got his gun out because it's many times faster to just quickdraw and shoot if necessary, rather than have your vision potentially obscured by an outstretched gun. He's a cowboy, it rather makes sense.
"I'm afraid being famous isn't the same as being a true hero". "For a true hero isn't measured by the size of his strength, but by the strength of his heart."
Words that shaped me into the man I am today ❤
“Stood in firelight, sweltering. Bloodstain on chest like violent new continent. Felt cleansed. Felt dark planet turn under my feet and knew what cats know that makes them scream like babies in the night.
Looked at sky through smoke heavy with human fat and god was not there. The cold, suffocating dark goes on forever and we are alone. Live our lives, lacking anything better to do; bear children, hell-bound as ourselves, go into oblivion. There is nothing else.
Existence is random. Has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it too long. No meaning save what we choose to impose. This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not god who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to dogs. It’s us. Only us. Streets stank of fire. The void breathed hard on my heart, turning its illusions to ice, shattering them. Was reborn then, free to scrawl own design on this morally blank world.”
These are words that shape people like me because we recognize that the concept of the hero is a lie - a comforting one, but a lie still. We can only count on ourselves at the end of the day.
too bad they came from the mouth of zeus. **screams in mythology knowledge**
joke aside:
"time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time" i internalize these words and the world demands that i suffer for that decision it seems...
Funnily enough, this is Amanda Waller at her least villainous.
Pretty sure she's not necessarily a villain or a hero, she's meant to fill a role similar to what Nick Fury from Marvel has, or Cecil from Invincible, she is meant to be a morally gray character.
@@christianjohnson5379
Not if you go by most of her portrayals elsewhere.
@@christianjohnson5379 she's more that corrupt government agent that does whatelse they see necessary and cannot be touched by normal means because they will use perception to beat you to the ground without even needing to lift a finger
@@stevenchoza6391 This is the only version of Waller that is good or morally grey, almost everywhere else she's just a villain who claims to be a "Good guy"
@@keithharrissuwignjo2460
Yep.
"If the Devil's patting you on the back as you fight angels, at least check to make sure he's not holding a knife to stab you with."
What a line
I still can’t believe they got away with calling an episode Patriot Act at a time when we had just invaded Iraq and Afghanistan
Ah yes the countries that hid people we was looking for
@@Gypsygeekfreak17and?
@@Briskeeen and if they was holding them then they deserve it i mean come on
@@Gypsygeekfreak17 cmon, everyone knows that was just an excuse;
The USA loves to find excuses to invade other countries and plunder their resources, specially oil
Honestly, it's always annoyed me when people say things like:
"We can't do or say or profit off of anything that has anything to do with X because X is associated with Y via a low common denominator, and THAT would be disrespectful."
For this episode to be disrespectful to the war, there needs to be an ACTUAL DIRECT correlation to the actual event.
Not just something that's vaguely reminiscent of the event.
9:50, well, he is a cowboy, and one of their signature traits in media is to quickdraw their revolvers at the last second and unleash a volley of bullets in the blink of an eye
You just earned a subscriber. So glad there are REAL superhero fans out there still. A superhero isn't someone who has flashy powers, it's someone with a crazy amount of determination to protect and fight for goodness and innocence.
"If the devil is patting you on the back as you fight angels, make sure he doesn't have a knife to stab you in the back with" is the hardest line i have ever heard holy shit Shady
Vigilante hit a car with his head hard enough to lift it into the air. I can't believe you missed that among all the scenes where Stargirl should have died.
Pretty much every except maybe Shining Knight and the Crimson Avenger should be dead. I zeroed in on Stargirl because she fell from the sky.
@@ShadyDooragsBatman once dented metal with his head and didn't even get knocked out, (if I remember correctly) so I think that dcau humans are just built different.
Welcome to the world of Comics, where everybody is more durable than a normal person
@@obsessedstar superhero characters only die or get hurt when the author says so, so yeah.
That Cowboy hat is incredible...
Hi, old-school DCAU fan from the Toon Zone message boards here. Yes, there WAS a cut moment when Eiling was holding Stargirl. Bruce Timm used to post on the TZ boards (as “b.t.”) and confirmed this in the talkback thread for this episode. Nice catch!
Hmm, any storyboards for this, may I ask?
Holy shit, Alex Weitzman?!
I still remember reading some of your BTAS reviews on The Big Cartoon Database! ... did you happen to save backups of any of those?
7:15
I’d argue Stargirl and Green Lantern don’t have powers, but Blue Beetle does. I say that because GL and Stargirl aren’t physically bonded to their items, whereas BB is. They can lose access to their items, throw them away, have them taken away and they’re just regular people, but in most versions the Scarab is fused to Jaimes spine and to remove it would kill him. I’d say that counts as powers, because he basically has a nanotech implant in him and makes any tech he needs out of basically nothing, but GL and SG don’t have anything like that and need their removable items with them to use their powers.
Never thought about it like this hah Batman has one up on lantern now
I think Shady was talking about the Ted Kord version of Blue Beetle, not the Jaime Reyes version. Ted never had the scarab bonded to him. As to why the Ted Kord version, while he's never seen in Justice League series, he would've probably been active during that time frame. I think the only reason why they didn't use him, was there was some doubts as to whether they had the rights to use the character.
@@atoth62 I don’t think so. Ted doesn’t have powers under any definition, he’s just a guy in a suit who uses tech. He’s your typical Batman type in that regard. Him saying he thinks Beetle has powers would pretty much have to be in reference to Jaime.
@@CommanderSteelTrap Okay, than I misunderstood what Shady was talking about.
To go a little geeky on a discussion of powers, there were a few origin options in Marvel's Super Hero RPG:
Altered humans, normal people who acquire powers, such as Spider-Man or the Fantastic Four.
High-tech wonders, normal people whose powers come from devices, such as Iron Man.
Mutants, persons born with superpowers, such as the X-Men.
Robots, created beings, such as the Vision and Ultron.
Aliens, non-humans, including extra-dimensional beings such as Thor and Hercules.
Personally, I'd say a High Tech Wonder doesn't have super powers but is a superhero. Ripley got into an Exosuit and fought an Alien, does that mean they have superpowers? No, but they were darn heroic doing it. Robots could probably fall into the same thing, as they're just computers using technology and not any superpowers. Is a pilot suddenly possessing the superpower of flight when they flight their plane?
Essentially if you meet this hero at a random time and place, just walking down the street.. can they do the same things they can do while being heroic? Can Tony fly and shoot repulsor beams and such without being in the suit? Could Stargirl do anything special without having her staff?
This is my absolute favorite JLU episode.
This and mumen rider from "one punch man" are the kind for super hero stories I love the most. Like don't get me wrong, seeing Superman push a building out of the way to save a baby seal is cool and all, but seeing a street level or lower hero always lights a fire inside me. Watching them push past their limits just to stop whatever in front of them makes my day.
Mumen Rider is one of the greatest heroes!
Indeed. A character that gives *everything* they've got and it's just not enough or is but just barely, is amazing to see. A character who's given all they've got, and all they have left is raw willpower. It shows great strength of character, and it's a sight to see.
I'll never be able to watch Mumen Rider go up against Deep Sea King and not get emotional.
Hey, I remember this episode!
It's one of the few I actually remember!
The message of "Give the other heroes some love too" is really well conveyed here when those kids at the end suddenly want to be like Shiny Knight and Vigilante, when before they probably didn't even know who they were.
Mumen Rider from One Punch Man had a similar thing going for him, only in this case he's extremely well known and people cheer him on despite knowing he can't win.
the greatest heroic line ever came from randy marsh
"i didnt here no bell"
And in the end the children of South Park got to play their video games.🥲
.... didn't Rocky say it first 😭
@@mexicanbatman8157 probably but randy is funnier
Hear
Here is for a location
@@phylippezimmermannpaquin2062 i dont cere
Today, I went to my co-worker's house to help them move out. I vacuumed their old house, swept spider webs of the ceiling, cleaned the shelves and did a tip run for him. I've known them for about a month, and I had to actively turn down the money he wanted to give me for helping. I saw at work how stressed he was about how much cleaning he had left to do, and I wanted to help him and make his life a bit better. I learned that from the older superhero stories. If I grew up watching She-hulk and the eternals, I doubt I would've wanted to help, because the heroes I grew up with would have told me not to get involved.
The moment when it cuts to Thor saying that’s what hero’s do is a good line that perfectly reflects the scene as he is willing to die for the people he protects
17:09 I love how that legit makes him pause.
General Eiling beat up all the superheroes but he couldn't convince anyone what he was doing was the right thing, not even himself. Talk about winning the battle but losing the war.
I would say superheroes aren't necessarily supposed to be relatable, they're suppose to inspire. That's what makes Superman so good, a being with the power of a demigod, who could conquer the entire Earth in a few days, but even with all his powers he use them to help people, to be an example for others, all the while not joining with political wars or factions or whatever.
Flash is the same way, with his speeds he's helping the people in his city, even painting fences of old ladies cuz he can.
"I wanna help people like Superman, I wanna look out for my neighbors like the Flash."
Like you said, we kind of lost that.
That used to be the difference between DC and Marvel, at least in theory. Stanley Lee decided he wanted heroes that the readers would be able to identify with and that's part of why Spider-Man was created as a teenager instead of an adult like most heroes.
Yeah because DC heroes aren’t relatable their inspiration the only heroes that are relatable are from marvel. And I like to say that
DC is the Abrahamic God who we should try to be as mentioned multiple times in the bible.
Marvel are like Greek gods who even though have great power they sometimes fail and fall into despair. Like how iron man was an alcoholic or spider-man using he’s powers for selfish desires.
This episode is loaded with nerdy bits. One is the Eiling’s transformation isn’t just a Hulk reference. In the comics he transfers his mind into an artificial being, a big hairy monster called the Shaggy Man that had gone toe to toe with the Justice League on multiple occasions, then shaved him so he looked basically like the monster in the cartoon. Random trivia I know but if he was as powerful as he was in the comics he probably could have gone up against Superman, or even the league itself.
Which makes a hero a heroic?
Is it having great power that allows them to not only save those around them but also make their lives better like Superman?
Or is it overcoming great struggles to show the power that anyone can achieve with enough hard work like Batman?
The answer, is whoever chooses to be a hero because it's the right thing to do.
Current day "heroes" are basically edge lords or overpowered ego driven mary sues like captain marvel who doesn't even do anything since she lost to a weaker thanos.
Old heroes had issues that they had to deal with like spiderman and a city that hates him. Superman in tas where he literally destorys the city and has to build himself back up as a hero and person
A hero is someone that does what's right regardless of their own personal fame. The heroes in unlimited help in a pinch.
Iling like lex have the mentality of "superpowers are bad so we should also get them to stop these threats"
Hell even batman cause older versions could connected with at least some of his vilans hell even catch a few Ls now and again
Waller is just as bad as Luthor and Eiling, especially later incarnations
@@firedragonv2408 well he did lose quite a few things in his time. Robin becoming Nightwing and sometimes on a bad end. Jason Todd's end. Batgirl becoming oracle losing her legs due to joker.
He has to live with that same with the writers not wanting him to be happy yet somehow having Damian meaning he gets got by Damian's mom regardless.
So Captain Marvel is an overpowered "Mary Sue"... but she also lost to Thanos, which goes against the Mary Sue definition of being OP and never losing?
Huh?
@@selinawalsh9075people need to stop throwing that word around.
"It's always terrifying when Amanda Whaler is the voice of reason." 💯 😂
Ty and subscribed
The argument about modern heroes is good one, and how most modern writers are so obsessed with their heroes being "relatable" forget that heroes don't actually need to be relatable, they need to be inspiring.
Superman epitomizes an old quote IIRC originated with a martial arts master a long time ago, albeit in a different context: "The fact that perfection is impossible is no excuse to not strive for it." It's not about whether or not he's immediately relatable to an everyday person, it's the fact he represents the kind of good we should strive to be, and that is what is lost on modern writers.
Marvel heroes are meant to be related to. DC heroes are meant to be looked up to. Obviously this is not written in stone or anything.
I like both approaches. But I’ve always liked DC comics more.
"Remember, perfection is a road, not a destination." Chuin, Master of Sinanju (Remo Williams: The Adventure Begins)
JLU was SUCH a wonderful show. Also was able to show how Superman saw/treated the world. "A world made of cardboard" and gave him someone to actually cut loose on.
Shining Knight and Vigilante are still my favorites from JLU - and I wish they were around more as a whole. Hell, this episode is still my absolute favorite of the whole Justice League series, remembering they had more than just the main cast and actively using them to some of their best potential - this episode could never have happened if you threw in the main cast of the Justice League, the founding members would have whooped his ass. Bringing in the lesser known heroes, and all heroes without powers - well, that's what truly made this episode. What do you do when your enemy is insurmountable? Do you still fight the good fight, do your best to save as many as possible? Do you turn tail and run? Being a hero isn't just being the strongest around, and this episode does a good job at reminding us of that.
"A true hero is not defined by their strength, but by their ability to inspire and lead others." - Mahatma Ghandi
Modern day media focuses too much on showing heroes being 'normal' people that just happen to have superpowers. These heroes are flawed, hypocritical, plagued by their own biases and ideologies... and Hollywood thinks their characters will be popular because most individuals can identify with them in this "one of us" mentality. What they fail to realize is that the "spark" Shady is referring, the spark most of us miss but can't identify, is that we rarely see heroes that are not just superpowered, but super *human*... They don't struggle to make the morally correct choice, they don't struggle with decisions of whether or not to abuse their power, they opt to be gentle and kind as often as they can rather than a raging douchebag, they lift up as many people as possible on a physical, emotional, and mental level... That is what is missing now. I don't need She-Hulk 'twerking', for the love of God, I need more Sir Justins, Stargirls, Vigilantes, and Stripes. I don't want a person with superpowers, I want a superhero.
I'm sorry but what? Normal people? In what world is Doctor Strange or Iron Man "normal people"?
In today's world, superheroes or people with special power are always portayed as the 1% class. They have supernatural intelligence, and are usually filthy rich. They are not normal in the slightest. Hell this is a trend that continues into other forms of media as well, the idea that normal people are just sidewalk trash, here comes the people with abnormally good stats! It's an age of overpowered people and rich or just those who were extremely lucky in life.
You ain't gonna see the farmer's boy/girl become a superhero because say, he found a magic staff.
No, they're going to become a superhero because they can solve advanced math in their sleep, are built like supermodels, have all the tools available to them to build their own suit or gadgets and whatnot. Not going to be the person who is sliding behind in school because their brain can't comprehend what they're studying, or the unemployed bum. Never.
So I disagree wholly with you.
But I do like Sir Justin.
It kinda doesn't help that so many people who consume superhero content are so focused on the powers of the heroes and how powerful they are rather than how they are actually heroic.
@@ShadeSlayer1911the show my hero academia is also guilty of that. 80% of the world's population has super powers and the normal 20% is treated like crap. Not to mention most of the heroes do it for the fame and money instead of for what's right.
@@slanetroyard92 Not to mention, in MHA Japan, it's illegal for anyone who isn't a registered hero to even use their quirk, let alone help heroes fight. I'm looking forward to seeing how they might resolve this issue within their world.
Because a lot of people were upset at the civilians for crapping on the heroes, but I think a lot of the heroes had it coming. The two parties basically made a deal. Heroes said "we will protect you civilians, and in return, you can't protect yourselves...at all But you won't have to. Just leave it all to us." Civilians said "okay," because they trusted the heroes. But then the heroes FAILED. Sure, in times of peace that was held up by All Might, it was easy enough to protect the civilians who are not legally allowed to protect themselves. But once All Might retired and real crap started, they absolutely FAILED in every regard. Many of them straight up quit because they weren't really hero material. So now the deal turns out to be a raw deal. Civilians gave up their rights in return for security that the heroes failed to provide. So yeah, they're upset. They should be upset. And yes, they're responsible for this deal too, but the heroes convinced them it was a good deal, when in reality it was an awful deal. They gave up their freedoms for security and got neither. They live in an authoritarian hellscape where the average citizen is not legally allowed to use their natural born abilities, and they're still not safe. I'd be pissed too.
@@ShadeSlayer1911 the thing about mha has failed to realize that you don't need powers to be hero. I can so many heroes from Marvel, DC, Invincible and so on that have gotten the job done without powers. Besides that mha heroes one of the most important things to being a hero. It's not a heroes job to be liked. It's their job to help people no matter the personal cost. A great man once said with great power comes great responsibility. Spiderman learned that lesson. Despite that he gets bashed by the media and the people of NYC, he still does the right thing.
I always read the Spy Smasher opening as setting up the message of the episode; a non-powered hero triumphing.
Something I do want to say, although I don’t know if anyone else said it in the comments, is that Sir Justin kept his word. The General never showed up again in the series to harm another, just like Shining Knight promised. It’s a little detail that I loved from my favorite episode of the series.
I can’t believe the Justice League fought Omni Man… I mean J Jonah Jamison… I mean Mayor Lionheart… I mean-
You mean the man with the combustible Lemons and Moon Rock Cancer Cave Johnson
@@woodman3926 nice >:]
You know what, his first appearance was in September 1997 in the Image Universe. So, while he didn't have a voice back then, I wonder if this episode inspired the casting? Actually, I wonder why people don't use the audio of this episode to get clips of him saying "Superman" and such to make TH-cam Poops, or Rap Battles, between the two characters, or whatever the internet is doing these days.