Repertoire: Understanding Shostakovich's Twelfth Symphony
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 พ.ย. 2021
- Is this symphony really as bad as its reputation suggests? I don't think so, and I have some suggestions that should put you in the right frame of mind to savor its many qualities. Then we'll look at some of the best recordings.
Musical Examples courtesy of Naxos Records
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I have hidden my admiration for the 12 th. Many of my music friends just hate it and refuse to listen. I ignore the titles and program. Shostakovich’s best? No.. but far from a bad symphony. Love following the motives thru the work. Thanks for this! Yes, this not a “throw away” Symphony.
I’ve heard you mention that people don’t like this symphony. I played it in youth orchestra and fell in love with it. Can’t understand what people don’t like about. Maybe because I learned it by performing it and not simply listening to/reading about it.
I have always loved this symphony. (Never played it). I don`t ever think in terms of best or worst - too narrow minded judgement in my view - just take each work as it comes. Besides, we are all different! I think it is a marvellous work! B.W.
Haitink really slams it home in the 12th! And the Concertgebouw musicians play like their life's on stake. Thanks Dave for pointing me towards this great recording that, together with your whole video, really helps me appreciate this impressive and neglected (well, surely by me) symphony.
The 12th is not a bad work at all; to me, its major problem is that it followed the 11th, an absolute masterwork that dwells in the same social-historic atmosphere.
You might be right. Perhaps if this symphony had come out after the first three...
The only shame about this symphony is that it’s written right after No. 11. It’s a terrific symphony as well, yet its predecessor simply stole the thunder. What a pity.
One of the first works that introduced me to the world of Shostakovich. I was quite fond of it in the beginning and then I started to dislike it when I compared to his other symphonies. But that was until I heard Mravinsky's interpretation which was like a revelation of the work for me. In fact, I think it is his best Shostakovich recording.
Thank you, for using your time to make this inspiring talks. So usefull!
For me, Shostakovich can do no wrong - even when a lot of people say he did :) I picked up the Haitink cycle in 1998 and loved it from the first day. You know that syndrome where any recording you listen to after the first one (excluding a disaster) is never as good? That's what I felt. That being said, I purchased the Barshai cycle just last year, and I was amazed how two different conductors/orchestras can make such a contrast playing the same piece. Perhaps that's a testament to Shostakovich too? I'll just have to keep on listening!
My introduction to the 12th was through Haitink as well and I was fond of this work from then (1984 for me) and still like it. It is not at the level of the 5th, 8th, 4th and 10th which are my favorites but I listen to it regularly like I do for the 6th and prefer this to the 9th or 11th.
I absolutely love Shostakovich’s 12, although I admit I sometimes turn it off before The Dawn of Humanity - it’d be a better symphony with that movement simply omitted. Mravinsky debuted the 12th and could fairly be said to own it, at least until Haitink and Barshai came along. Mravinsky and Haitink are equally thrilling in my view.
KAPOWIE!!!!!!! ...I listened to your recommended recording and, WOW! There's nothing wrong with that symphony under Haitink. I got goosebumps -- EVEN throughout the finale.
Yay!
Thank you for that talk. I always thought that the 12th contained some good (even great) music and I came up against prejudice in even talking about it.
Thank you for opening up this symphony! And the Boris references in the second movement makes great sense to me. Hearing the symphony again, even the opening melody doesn’t sound far from the opening of Boris. Perhaps Shostakovich was near suicide at the premiere because he was afraid the authorities would notice he had indicted Lenin as a Boris figure.
But the final scene of Aida quoted in the third movement of Mahler’s Fourth? News to me! Can you please help me with that one?
Have a look at my Mahler and Italian music video.
The slow movement is something to cherish. I love it. Great video
I actually got to perform the 12th a few years ago in a Seattle community orchestra. It was fun, like a roller coaster ride.
Thank you, David, for yet another perceptive exploration of a Shostakovich symphony. When I first heard this work in my late teens, because of certain superficial aspects of it, I thought of it as a sort of Soviet (thus atheist) symphonic response to the Russian Easter Overture-being about the Russian people and the celebration of a supposed messiah. Both works share a lot of active music, and those Russian themes which are ultimately often derived from ecclesiastical music, and there is a lot of repetition-though Dmitri is always developmental of his materials, while Rimsky was often content to just play something he liked over and over. And both have a notable trombone solo. Rimsky uses tam-tams to enhance his sounds, recalling huge church bells tolling, while Dmitri, like Mahler, uses the instrument as a harbinger of darkness, death, and disaster.
There is certainly a Mussorgskian Boris-esque feeling to the themes here, and ultimately it seems to me that Shostakovich tells us in this work that having faith in any messiah is a pointless, hollow exercise. His "faith" was in the much abused Russian people he saw stoically holding on to simple joys while being subject to tyranny. He so often shows us in his works not triumph, but instead a pastoral, charming humane feeling, which is the solace one finds when one can avoid one's tormentors. The triumphant bombast is just posture, while the quiet, personal joy is the genuine article. The finales of the 8th and 13th symphonies speak this very clearly. That message seems to often be a fundamental aspect of so much of his music. I've never had a problem with this symphony. It is more Shostakovich, and for me that is always a good thing!
I have read somewhere that the finale was re-writen by Shostakovich last moment before its release, as he was afraid of being controversial or misinterpreted (but I do not know what the finale originally was like). The main theme of the finale sounds to me similar to his old motif from Piano Concerto I, 2nd movement and central part of Symphony No. 2, and expresses to me some hesitation feeling. The interpretation of the very end of the symphony seems to me quite clear - looking forward to the end of the useless noise, which represents the regime.
If it's true, it would be great if the original finale could be rediscovered.
I listened to my very first Shostakovich 6 and 12th this week. I thought the sixth far superior to the superficial twelfth. Just listened to your talk on the sixth and this one is helpful as well!
The 12th imprinted on me fairly early on back in the 1970s when I bought a Melodiya-licensed LP of it at the time. Always glad to see Dave step in to defend the unloved.
Thank You - again for another GREAT analysis
I've long had a soft spot for this work. I love the opening melody and there are many gorgeous moments elsewhere and it can be really exciting too. Yes, I think the finale is a bit of a let-down but, like you, I'm happy to accept it for the rest of the work
The same is with me. In fact, the 12th was my introduction to Shostakovich
Thank you! What a wonderful video. A sympathetic and considered treatment of a piece that--as I THINK you said elsewhere--"nobody likes," but that has real virtues.
I'd love to hear more of that sort of single-piece appreciation!
I love this symphony. Out of random luck, I downloaded Haitink's version off of itunes when I was 14 and was deeply struck and moved. The second movement really is the heart of the symphony and, when I heard it for the first time, it felt like time stood still. It never once occurred to me that I was listening to anything other than great music.
Very ccncise and convincing point on the many strengthes and also weaknesses of that great and very enjoyable work. Many thanks !
Great explanation thanks. I love this symphony, is one of my favorites. If it has bad reputation for me it do not deserve it.
I subscrived your channel. I am going to hear your videos for hours.
THANKS
Thank you!
I've never understood how the same people who heap praise on the (bloated, bombastic) 7th and 11th symphonies can trash #12; it's not top-drawer stuff but, as this video makes clear, there is much to admire. Way back in summer, '67 I bought the Mravinsky performance on the BRUNO (!) label, and I recall one day when I actually listened to the symphony (w/score) THREE times through (which, of course, lasted me a long time). Fascinating parallel between the second movement and Boris Godunov; knowing the way Shostakovich worked, I don't feel this is reading too much into the music.
In addition to the two very cool themes in the first movement, there's the distinctive recurring brass chorale in II. I've always liked the breezy, wistful 2nd theme of the Finale; it certainly provides an unexpected alternative to the the bombast surrounding it (and also, to some degree, foreshadows the lovely flute duet theme from the 13th's finale). All-in-all, a much more agreeable work than the 11th. I must hear the Haitink/Concertgebouw recording; it may be that the 12th requires the care and attention of a great musician such as the late maestro to reveal its true stature. A rare event, but one that has thankfully been captured on disc. LR PS--shortly after posting this, I discovered the Haitink 12th sitting on my shelf! - I had originally purchased it for the coupling: Hatink's excellent 6th. Holy Cow! The power and intensity of the 12th is very impressive..especially the final peroration, which has a grim, monolithic sort of grandeur, in the same vein as the "fatalistic" approach to the similar ending of the 5th (and Haitink's use of multiple military drums during the final pages greatly increases this effect).
The old Mravinsky recordings seem to be gone. But the other Mravinsky recording that's really excellent, IMO, is the one in the Erato/Mravinsky box. I think it's from 1984. BTW, Profil releases always suffer from horrible sound when they release old Russian recordings.
But both Mravinskys are here on you tube. :)
I've always loved this symphony, even when always aware of the din of its detractors. Sure the finale isn't great music, but Shostakovich always dabbled with a touch of bombast. For atmosphere in a film music sense nothing beats the first three movements. Durjan recorded a great 12th which appeared on Philips from memory.
Got to listen to it again. Haven't heard it in years and then in my car.
I believe it was me that suggested the quickness of Neeme Järvi's version in a previous video. And yes, I was referring more specifically to the last movement. And the first movement to a certain extent.
Yes, the old Leipzig performance was conducted by Ogan Durjan (sp?). I remember it well, along with the cannon shown on the album cover.
I'll have to go back and revisit the 12th. You can imagine how disappointed I was as a young lad, having been madly in love with the 5th symphony, riding my bicycle half-way across San Jose to Wherehouse Records; asking for a recommendation, and going home with that Philips/Leipzig Radio S.O. recording of the 12th, conducted by somebody with an Armenian name (or some southern Soviet Union type name [Durjan?]). This Petrenko one strikes me as being much better. I love the 6th anyway, so it can't hurt to have another one of those. In short: I'm sold!
Another illuminating vid. I never thought of the Boris connection. Now when can we get a talk on those other two bastards at the Shostakovich Symphony family picnic, 2 & 3? Preferably together. I'm personally fond of both, especially 2, ever since the pioneering Morton Gould RCA lp.
Thanks again David for opening a new window in Shostakovich. Invaluable stuff
Sometimes great music comes out of a mess, as you say… in his case that ended up being the Eighth String Quartet. But I will listen to the Twelfth Symphony keeping these observations in mind. Thank you.
I only have Gielen's recording with the SWR SO (Arte Nova). Not sure, if it's quite good, but probably Gielen was also interested in this symphony as music.
I just discovered this recording via TH-cam and am listening to it. I love Gielen but somehow didn't know he recorded any Shostakovich--doesn't look like it's in any of the recently-released SWR boxes. Järvi has always been my go-to, but I haven't done a lot of comparative listening for this symphony.
It's an interesting and unusual work. A Shostakovich addict friend years ago told me to throw out the programs, similar to your advice. The Haitink is really excellent, but personally, I like the Mravinski 1961 better than any I've heard.
The 12th.symphony is one of my favorite Shostakovich's symphonys which I sincerely admire!Everyone has their favorites and mine is Evgeny Mravinsky from 1961.Every conductor on your list deserves the greatest respect.
I agree with the Naeme Jarvi and Gothenburg recording
Hello Mr. Hurwitz. Thank you for your insight. I’ve learned so much watching your videos. Just wanted to let you know that your “merch link below” does not show up on the iPad.
It does now! Thanks, I had forgotten to add it. Some salesman I am!
I had not noticed it before hearing you sing the first theme of the finale of the 12th, but it strikes me that the shape of that opening horn fanfare, with its oscillation between several small intervals gradually expanding bears a certain resemblance to the shape of the theme which begins the final "Career" movement of the Thirteenth - brash, even banal in the earlier work, but transformed into something magical in the later one. Coincidence, purely my own imagination, subconscious echo in the mind of the composer - who knows?
You're right. They are very similar.
The "oscillation" between intervals is a very good way to describe that motif..one which Shostakovich used often. As mentioned above by Ondrej Sedo, that same motif is the single recognizable and prominent motif from the chaos and ensuing grandeur of the much underrated 2nd Symphony. LR
@@HassoBenSoba Thanks - that's another work I need to revisit.
I have always thought of the 12th as his payment to the Party for their allowing a performance of the 4th, which occurred in Dec ‘61, just two months after the premiere of the 12th.
I’m going to go against the consensus here… the finale is my favourite movement. The reason 12 works for me is that it’s the only time I hear Shostakovich not putting 100% effort in… but he *is* putting 100% effort into not putting 100% effort in. It just keeps going and going and going, round and round and round and round, and you just want it to be over and put you out of your misery… and then you realise there is still another three minutes left.
You also mentioned that 12, like every other Shostakovich Symphony, is unique, and I’d agree to an extent but again I hear 12 as not 100% effort in. A D Minor symphony with “triumphant” Major-key ending with dazzling repetition that makes you grind your teeth, all the while timpani pound below… sounds like 5, no? A dramatic and anguished opening movement with powerful string harmonies to begin… okay, that’s just 8. And a programmatic symphony in four attacca movements about a Russian Revolution… it even quotes some of the same revolutionary tunes as 11 does, it’s thinly-veiled self-borrowing.
I hear 12 as littered with signposts throughout, basically saying “look how hard I am trying”. Or perhaps “this has all worked before, and I guess I have to churn out this symphony, so I’ll do it all again”. It’s like when a band does an album with all the pastiches of their greatest hits but it doesn’t quite have the same ambiance as the originals. I love 12 for the fact that it is the time Shostakovich turned in a sub-par symphony… and deliberately made it a sub-par symphony to boot.
(Also, I’m writing a History coursework essay for school on the February Revolution, which means that 12 is good soundtrack.)
For decades I thought nothing could match the Mravinsky. It is towering. Then i heard the Haitink. Dave is right. Fabulous video. I learned so much.
I had the Philips Shostakovich 12 with the Leipzig Gewandhaus. Conductor was Olgan Durjan....Armenian I believe. Blistering performance, but that was 50...60 years ago.
I also like how you can find operatic influences in Shostakovich. Same case with Mahler, just with folk songs possibly lost to time - Mahler did all this set dressing in his output. Mahler is Opermusik ohne Worte. A lot of Shostakovich is Opermusik ohne Worte.
Why am I writing this? It's set dressing and a drama playing to above and beyond.
I cannot be the only person who gets it, surely?
One of your best, DH. I got to know the 12th back in lp days from the Haitink recording, and for the life of me couldn't understand why the cognoscenti slated it. Always thought the first movement would make great dance music. If you could get through the development without getting to your feet you had to be half dead. I think you're smack on with the Godunov connection. I have to admit I hadn't noticed it, but now see it's unmistakeable. And I got a big smile out of your comment on reactionary leftists. Some would say they're still with us.
Does anyone know how to find the Mravinsky recording these days?
I like the 12th, especially the recording by Rostopovich, which has a persuasive grandiosity and power. I'd say it's better than any of Shostakovich's film work. The only real stumbling block is, as Dave says, the finale -- the last few minutes, to be precise. It actually starts out quite well, but in the end gets bogged down in repetitive peroration. I think it should be possible to make this section work, but I haven't heard a conductor do it yet. Because the movements are connected it's not really possible to hear the work without the finale, but my advice to Shostakovich fans is to bite the bullet and listen to the 12th, because the good parts make it worth it.
If the finale was anywhere near the standard of the 1st movement it would be considered a masterpiece. I guess you're as good as your last note in many eyes.
I have a real out of the way recording featuring the Bulgarian National Radio Symphony Orchestra under Ruslan Raichev. While it is not nearly The Naxos recording, or the Decca recording, it is not too bad. I also have the Barshai Symphony set.
I heard Vasily Petrenko play this symphony with the Liverpool orchestra live a two or three years ago. The finale seemed much more trenchant than his recording. ❤️ Jarvi though.
Those trenches always do the trick.
I love Shostakovich’s Symphony No. 12! It has so much passion and so many dynamics! The loud parts and soft parts are amazing! Every part of this symphony is a masterpiece! I’ve had it on my playlist for a while now, at least a couple of months. Some of my compositions were inspired by this piece! I don’t get why anyone would think it’s a mess. This writing is too masterful to be hated! Shostakovich wrote many great symphonies, but either his Symphony No. 11 or Symphony No. 12 is probably my favorite! Seriously, this is one of Shostakovich’s best works in my opinion! I just think that some people don’t see the true beauty of this symphony. A lot of “Princess Connect Overture,” my newest composition which was finished on January 8, 2023, took some inspiration from this symphony! This symphony deserves a ton of praise in my opinion. This has to be one of Shostakovich’s best works!
Perhaps the most pertinent question: who was Ogan Durjan? What else did he do?
Even more most pertinently: Who cares?
Petrenko's Shosty is superb. The second best cycle. The 13th with Barshai is what holds it off.
There are individual recordings for each symphony, but as a cycle. Shosty's Stepan Razin is PEAK Mussorgsky!
Any thoughts about Kondrashin's take on the 12th-?
Nope.
@@DavesClassicalGuide : Succinct and to the point...^^
Do you mean the Philips recording conducted by Ogan Durjan?
Yes, I believe that’s the one our host had in mind. Very cool Soviet futurist album cover.
Like I said, Latka Gravas. Same difference,
The first movement of the 12th is full of strong themes and exciting crescendi. That's the only good part of the work. The remaining movements fall into totally vacuous territory: a sleepily distracted slow movement; a scherzo of empty bombast; and a finale of embarrassingly empty repetition. That final alone is Shostakovich's signal to those paying attention that this is not a sincere effort on his part. Or that it is a sincere effort at writing a non-symphony, the subtext being that DS was not about to kiss official ass by devoting his musical genius to blatant patriotic themes. Look at the opus number of the work, 112, and look the opus number followed immediately on its heels, 113, the Babi Yar Symphony, the dissenting smack in the face to Soviet authorities over a host of daring issues. The 112, 113 juxtaposition begs to be examined in this context, and it's about time it was.
I was just listening to the Haitink version yesterday. Honestly, I struggle with Shostakovich. The music. The darkness. But then the beauty. It isn’t pretty like Tchaikovsky. But who cares. Right?? I dunno. I love it. Then i don’t. It doesn’t stick in my head like Beethoven or Brahms or Mozart does. But I am sticking with him. Besides. There’s always Chopin if I want beauty. I will promise to keep on listening!
If the 5th doesn’t do it for you, not sure if any of them will. The 10th was my introduction to Shostakovich - not just his symphonies but his music, period, and I still go back to that one a lot. (Looking forward to the video about that one - my first and still a favorite recording was Karajan’s first go-round from the 60s.) Anyway, the 5th is his most popular symphony for a good reason. Check out Bernstein/NYPO (recorded 1979) for a good recording. Cheers.
@@MDK2_Radio I think several of Shostakovich's symphonies are easier listening than the 5th -- 1 and 9 being the obvious examples. And honestly, I think I listen to 4 more than 5.
Dear David what books have you written and where to buy. I hope your books are all geared up for the listener who loves music.l admire your directness musicality and lack of bullshit itsgreat. Where 2ould I start with your writings considering I a late romantic and any 20th century music.
Could you do talkonles illumination by britten.Harper is my favourite with lott
You can find some of them on Amazon.com (just look up my name under "books"), and they are all available from the publisher: Rowman & Littlefield. Thanks for asking!
The 12th would have a bad reputation? How so? Never noticed this was singing around... It was and still is one of my favorites. But perhaps the clue is in your 'however' part: ....I only knew the Haitink version! "[The final] is almost convincing..." [chuckle] for me it is
The nothing theme in the finale is taken from Symphony no. 2. I’ve always thought it was important that no.12 is op.112 and no.13 is op.113. The two go together.
As for the last movement, you are saying insincerity is hard to fake! 😀😀😀
Maybe.
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Ohhhkay.
Shostakovich was not against the Communist system, he was against Stalin. That's why he refused to join during those decades when his life was actually in danger from Stalin's regime but did join later when it was far less likely that the government would do anything to him... then he joined. I don't buy the argument that he somehow felt more pressure in the post-Stalin era. That is not even a remotely reasonable assumption. Shostakovich was a Russian patriot who sympathized with the basic ideology of Communism even though he frequently disagreed with this or that regime. This is the simplest explanation and doesn't involve trying to create ridiculous explanations to explain supposed inconsistencies in his actions.
Could be, but I don't think it's that simple.
Haitink often seems overly-polite to me. But not his Shostakovich. That's a really fine set.