Russell's statistical case over Wilt | Greatest Peaks Ep. 1
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 พ.ค. 2024
- Support at Patreon: / thinkingbasketball - Wilt Chamberlain scored a ton of points in the early 1960s, but did that make him better than Bill Russell? Was Russell's impact overrated or entirely unmeasurable?
This is the 1st episode in a series on the greatest peaks in NBA history (focusing on 1977-2020), featuring detailed scouting reports and film breakdown on the best players in NBA history at their best, along with analysis of their impact using historical data & stats to size up the highest peaking players ever.
-----
Book: www.amazon.com/Thinking-Baske...
Podcast: player.fm/series/thinking-bas... or at www.stitcher.com/podcast/ben-...
Website: www.backpicks.com
Twitter: @elgee35
Ben Taylor is the author of Thinking Basketball, a Nylon Calculus contributor, creator of the Backpicks Top 40 series & host of the Thinking Basketball podcast.
Stats courtesy:
www.pbpstats.com @bballport
www.basketball-reference.com
stats.nba.com
-----
Footage in this video is owned by the NBA and its partners. It is intended for critique and education.
Thanks to 70sFan for providing footage for this video: / @70sfan
Series music:
csus (instrumental)
Hair (fairlight)
Imperfect Place
Lost by Alter Ego
Restless Knight
#ThinkingBasketball #GreatestPeaks #NBAGoat - กีฬา
Super excited for this and really appreciate all the positive comments! Reminder: Patreon Insiders & Deluxe subscribers get early access to each episode before it is released. www.patreon.com/posts/44189096
A few have mentioned/asked: I do tend to view Wilt's peak as higher than Russell's (which was outside the scope of this prelude). In 1967 he found a better balance with his playmaking and scoring, and combined with great defense authored a legendary season.
@miguelzaibatsu Didn't take long to find crappy takes. Let's just start with the fact that assists are one of, if not the absolute worst, NBA stat. Or how Russell had a massively positive impact on his team's culture, while multiple teams were tripping over themselves to get rid of Wilt because he was incredibly unlikable throughout (at least) the first portion of his career. Better team player my fucking ass.
@@aidanklobuchar1798 I agree assist are a bit overrated. Shot creation on the other hand is a stat that they don't really focus on also teammates per usual play a significant role.
Wilt played in soft era with different rules.
POINTS PER GAME IN NBA 1961/62- 237.6
POINTS PER GAME IN NBA 2019/20- 223.6
-
REBOUNDS PER GAME IN NBA 1961/62- 142.8
REBOUNDS PER GAME IN NBA 2019/20- 89.6
-
Free Throw Attemps PER GAME IN NBA 1961/62 - 74.2
Free Throw Attemps PER GAME IN NBA 2019/20- 46.2
-
Personal Fouls PER GAME IN NBA 1961/62 -51.8
Personal Fouls PER GAME IN NBA 2019/20- 41.6
Wilt played in time without 3-pointers against smaller guys in league with 8 clubs and won only 2 rings.
He never been playoff point-leader of NBA champion.
NBA 1960s-slow basketball ,soft basketball,for every fucking personal foul player get 1 or 2 free throws .
This channel's peak is also historically great
So excited for this series. You make the absolute greatest basketball content available
Agreed!
This is straight fax I need you to just livestream 24/7 f the big networks
@@cozycrossing259 fr it sucks that we only get a few videos a month
You guys should check out JxmyHighroller he’s pretty good too.
@@Michaelqqq he’s a little too narrative driven and his statistical knowledge and use of them isn’t even close to Ben Taylor. He’s not bad as far as most nba TH-cam channels go but I think he fails in comparison to this channel or dime drops
It's so weird that you and Stephen A Smith somehow have the same job title.
Honestly its just disrespectful to Ben.
Not only that but Stephen is making a shit ton of more money. Sad that guys like Ben don't get more exposure.
I wonder why people always have to hate on Stephen A 🤔 the guy is entertaining as hell and he paid his dues as a beat writer for a decade. The man carries ESPN.
@@anonuniversal364 It depends on what you want in your sports analysis. He's more of a storyteller.I don't mean to downplay the importance of that, but I'm super into basketball and want to understand it and he doesn't really help that....he might sidetrack
from it.
@The Ultimate playing doesn't make you a good analyst. Charles Barkley is a pretty terrible analyst but he's entertaining, fun to watch / listen too, and has interesting takes. It's all part of the job.
Tiny fun fact for Ben : Wilt didn't actually play every minute in '62. He had a game against the Lakers with a lazy 40 minutes due to being ejected, but made up for it in averages with 5 OT games, a double OT game and a triple OT game
Wilt never fouled out of a game in his entire career on top of playing insane minutes. He was a god amongst men
@@smittywerbenjagermanjensen320 “ A God amongst Men “ aside from when Wilt had to go up against Russell & the Cs
@@larrygrecko921 wilt outperformed bill most times they played each other
@@smittywerbenjagermanjensen320 - Where I come from performance is measured by Wins & Losses & ultimately on Championships...
@@larrygrecko921 Bill had the far superior team nearly every time they played. there's only so much one man can do
I feel like I'm committing a crime watching this for free
Nbs🤣
Man stfu before they put this on patreon
@@mashwork6615 fr 🤣🤣🤣
It’s a an absolutely crime how undervalued this channel is. Wish I lived in a world where this is what we talked about when talking about great players. Especially in mainstream media
This is the type of conversation that should drive the narratives on major broadcasting networks... data-driven, nuanced approaches, non-scoring blindness approaches to value attribution.... it’s genuinely insane how much people avoid this type of contemt
@@winnumber101 I guess we have wait until heaven to see this lol 🤷🏽♂️
@@winnumber101 Come on really just has you say individual stats do not make a great player. Neither does individual stat analysis, this stats and graphs can be pushed anyway you want them based on your biases. I would like to believe you understand that. Not because I can't spell or structure a sentence correctly.
@@megatondc6054Swag isn’t wrong though. Especially in recent times with JJ reddick calling out Kendrick Perkins for making big statements that weren’t accurate. There’s a need for a balance, subjective biases that are backed up by statistics. And in sports media today, the lack of preparation and research by a lot of these “sports analysts” showcase more general and controversial takes and analysis that lean more towards subjectivity than objectivity through statistics.
This is the best basketball content on YT and it’s not even close.
Basketball Storyteller is also great
it's a close second to the "Making a Case" series from Clayton Crowley imo
These are great.
@@WingedPlatypus I love him, but is not like he's an analyst
"Nothing but Amazing" is also very nice! :D
This is so exciting! This is the type of analysis that we deserve not hours of Skip Bayless and Stephen A Smith GOAT debates
Well we don’t deserve it. But it’s what we need.
Sadly most casual basketball fans prefer so called analysts who scream and have bold predictions rather than a smart and constructive men presented factual truth with actual research.
Finally someone that doesn't look at bad bricks, dumb highlights, clutch gene myth, dawg, killah mentality, finally there's some thinking, one of the best and unbiased basketball content for sure.
Despite the bias when Ben talks about Bill over Wilt (not mentioning Wilt's defense - one of the best but especially main things that Ben values Wilt for - while mentioning everything for Bill), granted.
Though it's pretty insane how Chamberlain still looks that great despite being diminished.
@@dusk6159 Ben is definitetly biased, but I do think he acknowledged that Chamberlain was also great defensively but Bill is just... the greatest ever. It's kinda insane. I doubt many people would argue that Wilt is a better overall player
@@MineShackle Absolutely, I only needed to have in place the facts of Wilt's great defense (all-time great record defense, though of course not over Bill, both things that Ben knows and usually makes sure to point out about Wilt), overall value and insane versatility, both as a player and for scoring, diminishing Wilt to a mere scorer and stat monster is pretty insane.
Bill Russell will always be the true GOAT to me.
This serie is gonna give me goosebumps. And you are a true inspiration, watching your videos I'd wish I could dedicate myself to NBA analysis
🙏 Really appreciate that Kuma. Hope it delivers!
@@ThinkingBasketball Hell, I don't know hard the maths and analysis is, but the writing, video production and animations are 10/10.
Do you have a team of content creators or do you do all of this on your own?
Whatever the case, the content is brilliant.
@@ireminmon the stats are the easy part. His analysis is phenomenal and the writing is always great. Fantastic pacing too. Best basketball content out there!
Russell is like Curry in a sense. Both the figureheads of dynasties; mostly because both are so good on one end of the court that you can overload their teams with players that make their money on the other end.
Curry, for instance, can play with spacing-deficient, defensive centric units like Draymond, Iguodala, Livingston, Bogut, Festus, etc. and still handcraft an elite offense; while Russell’s teams could be supplemented with mostly offensive talent since he was in many ways a one man defense.
Great start to the series.
Draymond, Iggy, Livingston and Bogut are/were all very good offensive players also, weird example. Spacing-deficient yes kinda cause no 3s but all 4 are very good passers and very high basketball IQ and Iggy and Shaun are very good cutters aswell. And Shaun was money from mid range.
@@kakerandelin He said "spacing deficient". None of those players were consistent (sorry Iggy) threats from beyond the arc and so were primarily inside the arc, clogging up spacing. I get what you're trying to say though.
@@scrotumusbaggins6562 He also said defensive centric, which that lineup isn't at all.
Curry was the 2nd option on the Warriors. It was KD’s team!
@@kakerandelin Wait, you don’t think Iguodala, Draymond, Bogut and Livingston is defense-centric? All 4 are good passers, but even then their passing is more complimentary (if you cut and get open they’ll find you; but they aren’t breaking down a defense, drawing defenders, and creating a shot for a teammate). 70% percent of their on-court value was on the defensive end. Just look at the Warriors offensive metrics when Steph is off the court.
People have said this a thousand times here but I want to say it myself. To an unhealthy-level NBA addict like me this channel is absolute crack. It's so far ahead of the usual (even professional) NBA content on YT intellectually it makes them sound like kids talking about a pickup game in their schoolyard. THANK YOU BEN and never stop please.
You can see it in the clips around 8:40, Russell would block shots as a tip pass to his teammate to initiate a fast break. Master level defense
One of the greatest blocks in playoff history; Wilt blocked a shot against the bulls caught it and threw a perfect pass down the court to Gail Goodrich to seal the series.
Wilt blocked shots like that too.
Paul George catching strays left and right
🤣🤣🤣🤣
It wasn't a shot at him though
@@Fs99al it was an effective image tho, we all know what pg's offensive efficiency looks like
Wilt was more talented and individually dominant while Russell understood the team game better. Russell tailored his play to most maximize his team's output, while Wilt tended to tailor his game for his own output. In 1967 Wilt was tasked to take on a more team optimizing role and to his credit he did take that on with great success.
Over the careers overall Wilt measured himself by stats while Russell measured himself by wins, so they both hit their personal targets at high levels. If Wilt was tasked earlier on to take on his 67 role then maybe he wins more, but his raw statistical marks would not be as gaudy as they were.
Mostly, Russell led great teams and Wilt carried average teams!!!
@@jhgust wilt scoring dropped 8/8 playoff series against Bill Russell, 6/8 his efficiency dropped and 7/8 he lost even though Wilts team had the better record 4/8 times including the best record in the league from 1966-1968 , and 1969 having second best record in the league while Russell 69 team finished last playoff spot and still won
Bill Russel could put up 50 a game if he wanted to and was every bit the athletic freak that Wilt was.
People think Wilt was so much more physically gifted the Bill Russell, but that just isn't true.
People talk about Wilt's high jump for example, which was good at 6' 6 and fifth best in the US at one point.
But Russell had a high jump of 6'9, and was seventh best in the world in college.
Super, super impressive content as always - such a joy to be able to head down memory lane yet still get some analysis on the game like we have today. Can’t wait for the rest Ben!
I'm in the Russell camp for sure, but I'm wondering why you didn't mention that the Wilt using so many possessions at decent efficiency is actually a huge value (ie decent efficiency at huge volume is more valuable than better efficiency at small volume)
Yeah he kinda sells Wilts performances short
This point.
I also think the All-Star argument (Wilt having a similar amount) somewhat unfairly discredits the eye-test. Russell played with his all-star teammates and coach for years (chemistry) whereas Wilt's all-star teammates and coaches especially often changed frequently.
Russell vs Wilt
Curry vs LeBron
Duncan vs Kobe
Magic vs Bird
Tale as old as time
Basketball TH-camr MDJ had a nice piece on what he called the Wilt Paradox, or something like that. In 1966, Wilt was way more efficient than his teammates, and scored over 30 per game. In 1967, Wilt reduced his usage rate, and as a result, the offense improved tremendously. Both Wilt and his teammates had better efficiency, which serves as a good demonstration that just because option A is more efficient than option B doesn't necessarily mean you should do cut down on option B.
The football equivalent would be run vs. pass. Passing gets you more yards per play, but that doesn't necessarily mean teams should increase the ratio of passes to rushes more than they already do.
In short, I think the answer is that Wilt shot the ball too much in their non-title years. On the other hand, I think it's also interesting to point out that when Wilt got his teammates in 1967 and 1972, Wilt's teams were probably better than any Russell team.
What was amazing to watch apart from the absolute perfect analysis was the vintage footage of Wilt and Russell. Made the video so much more appealing to me! Keep the amazing content coming and can't wait for the next episode
If everybody watched these videos nba twitter would have been a much more habitable place
Lmao I came back to this video after someone said wilt was higher all time
nba Twitter is aids
@@Fayn757 It's cancer
@@bum_5362 I high-key can't stand wilt stans, all they do is look at his 50 per game season and call him the goat center.
@@austin5944 they make millions of excuses for wilt
You are committing a serious mistake when trying to analyze data strictly. You fail to take context into account.
"Wilt played more minutes so he had more opportunities to score" led you to say "Kobe and Mike scored more per possession so they're better scorers". Durability is an aspect of basketball. It shouldn't be ignored like that. Wilt's case for being the greatest scorer ever shouldn't take a hit because he was durable enough to play the whole fucking game (especially considering the pace was crazy as well).
The minutes played is a pro-Wilt argument, not an argument against him.
I would say it can be used for both, yes he is incredibly durable and was like a super human (pro) but he's scoring rate is way lower cause he played so much (con)
The mistake I would he made was mentioning coaching and how each of them where used and how that is a factor.
@@luke7277 How fitting of the great 60s Celtics dynasty to end in the 1969 Finals with Sam Jones outscoring Wilt in back to back Games 6 and 7, and the fourth consecutive Game 7 meeting in a row (1962, 1965, 1968, 1969) between the two, Wilt choking at the free throw line once again just like in 1960, 1961, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1968, and 1969, Wilt quitting, the Lakers making a run with him off the floor only to lose by a mere 2 points in spite of Wilt's 9 bricks at the FT line, and his Hall of Fame teammate Jerry West doing everything he can to carry his team to the ring, dropping 43-13-12 in Game 7 and winning Finals MVP, only for Chamberlain to fail him.
In 1968 (3-1 lead) and 1969 (3-2 lead) alone, Wilt was 0-5 vs OLD Bill Russell in closeout games. That's the most "dominant" player in history?
Wilt's scoring NEVER benefited his team during this scoring champ seasons, and when his team needed him to score in the post-scoring title years of his career, he failed to step up - just like when Sam Jones outscored him in all four Game 7 meetings.
@@casualfandestroyer2503 The Boston Celtics of the 50s and 60s were by far the best team in American sports history. The Bill Russell's era lasted 13 years with 11 NBA titles. They were by far the best team. No comparison. Those Celtics team always had at least 4 or 5 HoFs playing for them every year. Some of them had 8 and 9. Absolute insanity. It would never happen in the modern era. On the other hand, the Celtics' opposition had 2 or 3 HoF maximum.
So, it is stupid to frame things as Wilt x Russell. It was the Celtics x everyone else. The Celtics did not only outplayed Wilt. They outplayed West, Baylor, Robertson, Bellamy, Pettit, Thurmond, everyone. So, this kind of argument that Wilt "choked" or was "outplayed" by Sam Jones (as if it was something bad (???) Jones was one of the best players in the 60s, legendary Celtics player and a HoF) could be applied to all those superstars above. The Lakers with West and Baylor were constantly shredded by that Celtics as well. Wilt could even force more Games 7 against that Celtics than the Lakers.
Bill Russell surely was the main piece of that team and his competitiveness and ultra high basketball IQ led that team to be the best ever. This is enough for him to be in the GOAT conversation, as he was the best player of the best team ever. But the team was far superior to the rest. Competition could not catch up. Simple as that.
That being said, the only player capable of beating a full healthy Celtics was Wilt Chamberlain in 67. Pettit's Hawks could also beat them in 58, which was a MAJOR Celtics' choke, but it came only with Bill Russell being injured and not being able to play for multiple games in the Finals.
So, in the end, the only guy able to disrupt the run of the greatest dynasty ever was Wilt. His 67 Sixers championship is one of the most significant championships in NBA history. Putting into today's perspective, it was similar to Lebron's Cavs defeating Curry's Warriors (the one with 73-9 record) after coming back from a 3-1 deficit.
That's the real context of that historical period. Not only Wilt's performance in Games 7 against the Celtics.
@@pedrofior2562 The Boston Celtics never made a trip to the NBA Finals before Bill Russell arrived in Boston. Even though they had Coach Auerbach, Bill Sharman, Bob Cousy and other future Hall of Famers, they did not make the Finals. Not even once. In the 1962 season, Bill Russell sat out 4 straight games and the Celtics effectively lost 4 straight games, again with players like Cousy, Sharman, and Coach Auerbach. In 1969, Bill sat out 5 straight games thanks to an injury and the Celtics went 0-5! This all happening with Sam Jones, John Havlicek and other Hall of Famers playing in the rotation. These 2 losing streaks I mentioned are the 2 worst losing streaks of the "Russell-Celtics"
Don't think that when Russell retired, most of the Celtics stars retired with him..they still had HoF's such as Havlicek, Sanders, Jo Jo White and Howell. Yet they still went through a massive 14 game drop when Russell retired. With the 76ers when Wilt got traded for a 5th and 8th man the 76ers went down from a 57 win team to a 55 win one. When MJ retired his team went from a 57 win team into a 55 win one: Oooh big drop! Bill Russell won 11 NBA championships while on the Boston Celtics, and he was the biggest reason for them.
“The original GOAT debate was divided into two”
You forgot the Oscar Robertson and Jerry West truthers.
@The Ultimate got to disagree on the Elgin take. Elgin was a very inconsistent and not on the same level as these guys. His knee problems killed him but he was a great floor raiser. In his prime he was right around the impact of Scottie Pippen (top 25 all time) and was a valuable asset to a decent Lakers team. He only crunched his MVP abs twice (‘61 and ‘63) in which he finished 3rd in WS/48 in ‘61 and 5th in ‘61.
Here is Ben’s (the creator of the video) profile on him. He gave Baylor the 37th ranked career in his top 40. backpicks.com/tag/elgin-baylor/
@The Ultimate look at that evaluation by Ben Taylor. Here is scotties backpicks.com/2018/01/29/backpicks-goat-23-scottie-pippen/
By this video standards oscar Robertson was trash
@@caleb_lane are you are doing is solidify him as the most underrated player ever. He is the best finisher in nba history and everyones favorite players favorite player
@@DrRhilTV by this video’s standards he is the 12th best player of all time
I’ll say it again, this is the best basketball analysis in the world. This is million dollar work
Been a fan of your channel and podcast for quite a long time now, so I was expecting great things from this series given how much time you've put in these past several months. So far, you've surpassed my expectations as far as the level of in-depth analysis given as well as how clear you've made the questions that you're trying to answer. Incredibly hyped for the rest of the series now!
Finally! Been waiting for this ever since it was announced, thanks for your work.
Beautiful statistics, Ben. Fabulous work here. (huge fan btw :)
Thank you for your content. It would never be the same when I watch basketball from now on.
I'm not even a basketball guy (or sports guy in general), but this year's Euroleague put me in the mood for some basketball content and I'm enjoying the hell out of this channel. It feels like I'm learning so much, things that will help me better enjoy the matches I'll be watching in the coming days. Thanks a million!
WHAT AN INTRO!! This looks great and this will be an incredible series. Reminding me why I love the game
The biggest quibble I have with your approach is that you can't completely discount how many minutes a player played. If one player is playing much more, then the value they deliver (relative to an average player) while on the court will stack up higher. Wilt's insane minute totals in the early 60s can't be completely discounted.
I'm not saying this by any means invalidates your overall analysis, and when you go to WOWYR stats later you're obviously (implicitly) taking this into account.
If wilt average 48 minutes a game in the 1962 season when he average 50 how did he know that his teammates played better without him???
@@nathanielmoore2599 Wilt does present a pretty bad sample size problem, at least in those years. Even later in his career he was still playing 42 minutes a game.
The best data point is the year he was traded to the 76ers, since each of the two teams he was on had half a season without him.
@@doktarr the warriors were 10-47 before wilt got traded for peanuts
Wilt and Russell were spammed by their coaches. They played the most 48:00 games by a lot. In the playoffs only Hondo and Lebron come close to as many 45:00 games. Wilt could have had a real GOAT argument if he just kept playing. Players said that even at 50 he was making the best players in the league look bad as a trainer/scrimmage guy. He could have signed modest on teams looking to compete against the likes of Kareem, Walton, Unseld, Lanier, Cowens etc
Wilt playing and performing for 48 minutes at a time when the pace was that fast should at least count for something.
The best basketball channel on youtube. I look forward to new posts
This is one of the best videos on yt, on any topic. congrats man, awesome job.
I like this new series, looking forward to watching all of it!
Ben your content is so good, thank you ❤️
Oh man, this is about to get crazy. The top 40 was already an eye opening, perspective changing series, now we have another one. Hope this all comes as quickly as possible
Reading the top 40 changed so many of my views from what I value from a player and the myths and misconceptions I had about old players
That list opened my mind about Stockton and Wilt. I hope he updates it this offseason (if it needs updating).
@@MyHipsAreMovingOnTheirOwn I would love to see how the current players move (Steph/CP3/KD) or too see if Harden cracked his list. And ofc, I wonder if LeBron has done enough to be the GOAT in his list
@@calvincoleman7543 I bet he has. I remember him saying on a podcast once that he did it pre 2018 playoffs and just that run alone might have pushed him ahead of Jordan. Another two years is probably enough to move him past Kareem. I loved that series, and would love to see an update as well.
@@adamjohnson1966 he said thar he didn't have time to change it because he was doing this series, but lebron passed kareem this season
Rewatching the series for the millionth time. This channel is genuinely outstanding
Brooooooo. Finding your page just now almost made me cry. This is feeding the geek in me like crazzzyyyy
For some reason I like watching videos about the GOAT debate. I watched like a 100 of them. But this one changed my mind more than any other.
Incredible video man! Best basketball content not just on TH-cam but anywhere. It’s a shame you don’t have an audience the size of these clowns on ESPN and FOX
Love the series. He details in basketball is so fascinating. How players create shots, the little things players do that separate them from other players etc.
Even with 181k subscribers this channel is still really underrated. Deserves at least 500k. Been here since the Lonzo Video at around 21k subscribers. Always such great and quality content.
Got a fat blunt and some food prepared for this. Thanks Thinking Basketball 🙏🏾
Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain are both underated by modern NBA fans.
On the other hand, some of Wilt Chamberlain's fans always bring stats in order to display Chamberlain's dominance. The thing is, we can't use metrics in order to determine if Chamberlain outplayed Russell, since journalists rarely wrote about these meetings. But, on occasions, we were lucky.
During those years, the NBA rarely filmed their games and when they did, they destroyed the footage.
On a few occasions, Wilt Chamberlain gathered points and rebounds when games were out of reach and Bill Russell [or other stars] were sitting on the bench.
Thinking Basketball repeats it continually : "Stats don't tell the whole story."
Let's dig into (link in the next comment) the 1962 EDF between Boston & Philadelphia :
* Game 1 - Wilt held in check; Celts Cop
"With Russell doing a defensive masterpiece on Wilt Chamberlain...Boston settled the contest early as it launched the defense of its world title. Russell, a picture of coordinated movement rising to the Chamberlain challenge held Wilt to 12 points in the first half. Chamberlain wound up high scorer with 33 points only after the issue was no longer in doubt."
* Game 3 - Boston Clinches Contest Early (Russell Outplays Wilt, Celtics Take 2-1 Edge)
"Bill Russell stole Wilt Chamberlain's thunder... Russell outscored and out rebounded scoring king Chamberlain in the crucial first half after being outplayed Wilt in Philadelphia Tuesday night. Though the 7-2 Chamberlain wound up leading all scorers with 35, most of them came too late for the visitors. Russell tallied 21 points to Wilt's 13 in the opening half and grabbed 14 rebounds to Chamberlain's 11. The big Celt finished up with 31 points. A typically brilliant play by Bob Cousy and Russell enabled the Celtics to open up their big spread before the first half ended...That gave Boston a 13 point bulge, 62-49, and the Celts proceeded to run the Warriors ragged the remaining four minutes. Boston led by 21 at intermission, 76-55."
Pay special attention to this part - "Russell outscored and out rebounded scoring king Chamberlain in the crucial first half"
Wilt was the 1961/62 REGULAR SEASON scoring and rebounding champion (50-25), but Russell outdid him in both categories when it MATTERED MOST.
* Game 5 - Fights Mark 119-104 Triump by Champions (Celtics put clamp on Chamberlain; Gain 3-2 Lead in East NBA Playoffs)
"Bill Russell put the clamps on Wilt Chamberlain... Russell scored 29 points to Chamberlain's 30. Bill blanketed Wilt so well that the NBA scoring king had only four of 13 field goal tries, 11 points and outrebounded 11-9 by his tormentor in the first half. Russell also contributed numerous blocked shots and assists to the decision...When Philadelphia closed the gap to eight points at the start of the second period, the Celtics turned on a burst in which they outscored the Warriors 17-4"
ONCE AGAIN - "Russell scored 29 points to Chamberlain's 30. Bill blanketed Wilt so well that the NBA scoring king had only four of 13 field goal tries, 11 points and outrebounded 11-9 by his tormentor in the first half."
Russell delivered the points and rebounds when it MATTERED, unlike REGULAR SEASON scoring/rebound champ Wilt Chamberlain
* Game 7 - Jones Sinks Winning Two For Celtics
"Jones fired the winning basket over giant Wilt Chamberlain with two seconds left for the 109-107 victory Thursday night...Russell, 6-10 center whose spectacular blocks of shots and passes in the fourth quarter helped Boston's comeback, agreed (with Auerbach). "Toughest series I've ever had to play in," said Russell...Though Russell held Chamberlain to 22 points and had the rebounding edge 22-21, Wilt was outstanding defensively...while rookie Tom Meschery took scoring honors with 32 points
ONCE AGAIN - "Russell held Chamberlain to 22 points and had the rebounding edge 22-21...rookie Tom Meschery took scoring honors with 32 points"
Sure, if you look solely on basketball reference, it looked like Chamberlain destroyed Russell, but journalists have us an insight of what really happened. Russell was handling the situation pretty greatly... but, Chamberlain managed to padded his stats when Russell was on the bench.
Game 1 : news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1368&dat=19620326&id=33NQAAAAIBAJ&sjid=4RAEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6077,2694955
Game 3 : news.google.com/newspapers?id=jKEtAAAAIBAJ&sjid=hNEEAAAAIBAJ&pg=1920,5116330&dq=wilt+chamberlain+35+russell+31&hl=en
Game 5 : news.google.com/newspapers?id=9z4pAAAAIBAJ&sjid=TGYFAAAAIBAJ&pg=2976,2892610&dq=11+points+and+was+out+rebounded+11-9+by+his+tormentor+in+the+crucial+first&hl=en
Game 7 : news.google.com/newspapers?id=-SERAAAAIBAJ&sjid=zOIDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6499,996218&dq=wilt+chamberlain+21+points+22+rebounds&hl=en
True brother.
Nobody Touches Jordan [TH-camr] research on this subject years ago : he had an entire section on Chamberlain.
While I appreciate the sources, the conclusion you have drawn from them is simply wrong. This is a very small sample size from one series. After reading the articles it's clear they had a back and forth, russell maybe getting the better of wilt this time. Keep in mind this is 1962 when Wilt was nowhere near the player he would be just 2 years later. From games available to watch on youtube Wilt instead out performs Russell in nearly every way, when on the court at the same time i'll add. Those are the 1964 finals game, 1967 edf (game ?), 1969 finals game 7... playing injured. Later in his career chamberlain became a much more effective scorer and defender. The numbers... and footage dont lie. Add to the fact, people nowadays undersell how much better russell's supporting cast was. I know this isn't entirely shown here but from other media, forgive me no sources lol but Wilt was hated by the media and constantly bashed by articles on anything he would do on the court and off. Subscribe to 70s Fan youtube channel for awesome basketball videos from that era and you can actually see some of their duels, it's incredibly rare footage that may add a little insight. Anyway, Wilt is better and good day sir.
@@heatnix3223
I was born in the 1970. To me, Wilt Chamberlain is one of the greatest player to ever laced them up. He was a pioneer and was the first certified NBA player to ever lift weights. He was ahead of his time.
But, he was a very selfish player until 1967. Most fans, reporters in the 1970s talked about it. When Chamberlain was traded to the Lakers, Sony Hill (sports announcer), stated it wasn't the case.
But, contrary to the popular belief my friend, the medias actually loved Wilt Chamberlain and hated Bill Russell due to their opposite personalities.
Wilt Chamberlain talked about it in his book "Who's running the Asylum?"
In another book, written by John Taylor, The Rivalry : Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, and the Golden Age of Basketball.
We learnt that Wilt Chamberlain had a few heated moments with his coaches. At the page 192 of this book, Chamberlain almost fought Alex Hannum because he felt his coaches wanted to change his game.
What did he wanted Chamberlain to do? He wanted to keep Chamberlain on the bench when the game was out of reach; he asked Chamberlain to involve his teammates more often by setting picks for them, passed the ball to them (so, to take fewer shots); and run back in order to defend his own basketball. His closest friend on the team, Guy Rodgers and other players felt the coach's decisions were paying off, since they were winning games.
Alex Hannum almost fought Chamberlain in front of reporters after a few altercations with him! Because Hannum was tired of Chamberlain complaining to reporters after the games!
Chamberlain also had a few heated moments w/ his Lakers coach Butch van Breda Kolff & Warriors coach Frank McGuire.
Furthermore, Nobody Touches Jordan tackled a few NBA series of Wilton Chamberlain [1973 NBA Finals versus the Knicks, etc.]. The same pattern occured in those series. You should read them, with a grain of salt, of course.
nobodytouchesjordan.blogspot.com/2014/09/section-10-wilt-chamberlain-great-but_16.html?m=1
I'm not a Chamberlain hater. On the contrary my friend, I firmly believe we will never see a career like his. But, he was selfish before Alex Hannum changes that... Even when he wanted to lead the league the league in assists, he wanted to be involved in every plays and refused to pass the ball to Matt Guokas (and other teammates). Why? Because, some of his teammates took dribble and Chamberlain wouldn't gathered the assist.
If Chamberlain had his Lakers' mindset for his entire career, he would had scored fewer points, but he would had won more accolades.
I hope you'll have a wonderful day.
wilt chamberlain doesn’t need stats...The fact they change multiple rules to limit your dominance speaks of a greatness beyond statistical comprehension or championship...and despite the rule changes you still dominate beyond comprehension...you set unbreakable records than break them again....When they write articles fearing that your ability will destroy the game of basketball you reach Demi God status...Some people are just gifted beyond understanding and are here just to be appreciated...
Incredible video, watching your content really expands my knowledge of the game
Awesome video as always Mr. Taylor. I’m very excited to see where you Walton among the Mikans and Abdul-Jabbars of his time. I hope you revisit this series over the next few years so that we can definitely say that Lu Dort’s 2 year peak is the highest of all time!
This is the quality of discourse I wish all NBA analysts had. Outstanding work, loved every minute.
Really excited for this series but regarding this episode, you analysed Bill's defence and offense and how his defence made him really good and you also spoke about Wilt's offensive game but you didn't (if I'm not mistaken) speak about his defensive impact
Long story short, he thinks defense is where Wilt made his real impact, just not as much as Russell did. See Wilt's entry in Backpicks Top 40 for more.
@@xycubed I understand how Russel's defensive impact is greater than Wilt's but I don't believe it is that THAT much better to compensate for his better (although overrated) offensive impact
@@arthurdiserbeau1736 Well, that's the million-dollar question, isn't it. Because unquestionably Wilt had more combined offense and defense than Russell. The case made in the video, though, is that Wilt had more offense than offensive _impact_, because his scoring was replaceable for the team (despite being very impressive for an individual player) and it was only when he dialed it back to contribute more in other ways that his impact shot up.
@@xycubed I just thought his defensive contribution should have been mentioned when comparing peaks but yeah I get what you!re saying
@@arthurdiserbeau1736 Exactly
Amazing videos. Have watched every single one on your channel and listened to all your podcasts, and bought your book 😅. Would love to see a video o how you make your videos. The graphs, animations and editing are 🔥
Long time listener first time caller..really feels like you've taken another step recently it's great to see. Not to say that it hasnt always been fantastic but just that the presentation is getting so good
Wilt's career is a tale of confidence and (perceived) lack of talent around him. He scored in bunches early in his career because he could and he was the best scorer and only efficient scorer on the team. When he got teammates he trusted to take the shots, he became more well-rounded and his team's success skyrocketed.
He had 4hof teammates in 1961 stop lying
@@dp233332 3 of them werent scorers and the other one was in the last year of his career
@@CadChamberlain wilt scoring dropped 8/8 playoff series against Bill Russell, 6/8 his efficiency dropped and 7/8 he lost even though Wilts team had the better record 4/8 times including the best record in the league from 1966-1968 , and 1969 having second best record in the league while Russell 69 team finished last playoff spot and still won
@@CadChamberlain if hes such an unstoppable scorer the fact that they werent grest scorers shouldnt matter that much especially given all the hype wilt fans bestow upon him for his passing skills
@@CadChamberlain Guy Rodgers was elite playmaker, Gola was a all around player with no holes in his game. Arizin was a prolific scorer who won a championship without Wilt in 1956, Attles was like kc Jones but more efficient
For those wondering, Wilt actually peaked higher than Bill in single season peaks, according to the creaotr of this video. his 1967 season is better than any of Russell's season, because of better creation, and critically, insane defense. Wilt is still a top 10 player of all time, but he accomplishes this through high level defense, and great but not transcendent offense, buoyed by a willingness to pass in the late 60s.
Wilt loses in consistency and two season peak that's why Russell > Wilt
@@hEaDShoT2934 agreed
@miguelzaibatsu surface level stats will always only tell a surface level narrative. Try seeing the game on a deeper level, like the impact a player has for his team. Bill Russell’s impact for team stats and team winning was far greater than Wilt’s, as correctly displayed in the video, it’s not even close really.
@@back2back379 in 1967 wilt beat Russell 4-1 and had a then NBA record 68 wins, along with a title. That shows that Wilts peak was higher, albeit it for a much shorter period of time.
@@Unreelme and then he went back to creating dissension in the locker room, making passive aggressive statements to the media about him not getting the ball as much as he wanted, and everything fell apart by the end of the very next season. Team completely disbanded after that.
Just noticed this channel last night -- I think I've watched 15 of your videos since. Basketball has always been my favorite sport -- I'd rather watch a decent high school game than the Super Bowl or the Stanley Cup finals. Your work examines and explains the game's complexity better than any I've ever seen.
This series is so underrated, I haven't been excited to watch a basketball series since the last dance.
Great video, you make a lot of good points.
This being said, there's a couple of things that didn't convince me quite yet so I thought I might chime in.
Wilt's teams were better offensively when he was scoring less - that's a statistical fact. But to me it seemed like you tried to imply that Wilt was holding his teammates back and I don't think that this was sufficiently proven (I'm not trying to say that it couldn't have been true, I just wished it was statistically proven). For that I would like to see how his teammates and his teams from those years performed when he was not on the team. Also his teammates on his 1972 Lakers team (where he was passing more) were Jerry West and Gail Goodrich. I don't think he had prolific teammates as those 2 in his Sixers years. Would his early teams be better off if he shot less?
The other thing that kind of bothered me was the segment where you talk about how Wilt's stats sank against Bill Russell, but there's no analysis of how they defended him as a team compared to the other teams. From what I've seen on the tape the best 1:1 defender against Wilt was Willis Reed and not Russell.
The last point is that Wilt's own defense is never brought up in this video and he was also considered one of the best defenders of his time. His teams were not as good defensively, but some of Kevin Garnett's Minnesota teams were bad on defense too. Plenty of good or great defenders have looked bad on bad teams. So it's not really all time offense against all time defense, it's all time offense + elite defense against all time defense + average offense in my opinion. Still I'm not saying this makes Wilt better but it's something that has to be considered in my opinion.
Also I'm not trying to say you somewhat misused the stats and I also understand that we don't have many stats and even less film, so analysis is always going to be difficult. But I think that there's this "Russell would do whatever it needed to be done for his team to win" narrative, which is kind of faulty to me because he wasn't as offensively gifted and didn't make a deliberate decision.
I just wanted to add that I don't have a dog in this fight. I think that GOAT lists are pointless so I'm fine with it either way.
He’s biased lol. Curry/Nash/Kg stan
Both Wilt and Kareem said that Nate Thurmond was the best post defender they ever played against.
@@rollotomasi4045 You're absolutely correct, I mixed up the names. Willis Reed was magnificent in the 1970s finals against Wilt though. th-cam.com/video/2Q3ULtuljME/w-d-xo.html
Russell played with four members of the NBA's Top 50 at 50 (Havlicek, Cousy, Sharman, and Sam Jones); Wilt played with six members (Baylor, West, Greer, Cunningham, Arizin, and Thurmond). And Russell's teammates from 1957 to 1969 were selected to twenty-six All-Star games, while Wilt's teammates from 1960 to 1973 were selected to twenty-four. Let's never mention the supporting-cast card again with Russell and Chamberlain. Thank you.
Wilt never was the leading scorer in the finals when he won In fact he was the 5th leading scorer in the 1967 finals 5th LEADING SCORER ON HIS OWN TEAM ALONE, wilts game was never that of a winner bill was the more clutch cerebral player 3 times in the finals he averaged 20+ PPG and another finals series he had 70%FG on near 20 PPG,
@@casualfandestroyer2503 Wilt only played with Baylor when Baylor was already 34 years old (and Wilt was 32 at the time too). West was 30 years old, Arizin was 31 and Thurmond only came in the league when he played with Wilt. So technically speaking you might be correct, but I don't think Wilt got many prime years of his HoF teammates primes.
Also, having Red Auerbach as coach was probably a factor too but maybe Wilt was too strong headed to get along with a good coach. I don't know really, aside from that that Red seemed to love Wilt.
Oh my god it's finally happening!
Everybody stay calm
dont menton God without need pray and repent to God believe in the trinity
Thank you! I’ve been waiting for this.
Watched it on Patreon already, finna watch it again and again till the next one comes out
I’m still convinced that Wilt’s 1966-67 season was the greatest single season of all time. Too bad he couldn’t keep up that level of dominance.
Indeed
I just don’t see how it’s the greatest season ever when he played every minute of every game, took every single shot, and didn’t elevate his teammates in any way. He was way too selfish.
@@samhartje723 you clearly have no clue about this subject. Wilt led the league in rebounds and assists in 67 you need to be looking at Wilt 62 season
@@elbowgang9715 Wilt fished for assists out of spite for the media because they kept perpetuating the fact that he's an extremely selfish player that doesn't elevate his teammates. Also, I don't want to play the “his era was full of short white guys” card, but he was by far the most physically imposing player besides a few anomalies like Russell and Kareem, which is why all of his stats are inflated, along with the extremely high pace of the league. Please don't ever disregard my initial comment by stating that I don't understand the situation, it’s not a very good argument and it makes you look like a dummy.
@@samhartje723
Gail Goodrich and Hal Greer both had their best scoring seasons in terms of production and efficiency with Wilt Chamberlain on their team. Once Wilt left you can see their efficiency decrease by a significant margin. So can we really say Wilt didn't make his teammates better uhmmmm. Happy Hairston had his highest scoring averages next to Wilt Chamberlain, wilt retires his scoring dips. Happy Hairston never Broke 13 rebounds a game despite playing in the faster pace league in the early 60s, Playing next to Wilt, Wilt showed him how to rebound and boom 13 board for the 3 seasons straight.
Look at Elign Baylors Fg%, out of his five most efficient seasons #1, #3 and #5 came playing with whom Wilt Chamberlain, he also had back to back Highest assist per games with Wilt. Jerry West five years with Wilt he average 26.6 ppg on 48.4% with 8.5assists , His career without Wilt 27.7 on 46.8% with 5.5 Assists.
Wilt chamberlain didn't make his teammates better is just another mythical label to place on the man legacy. All info can be found on basketball reference
The reason fans have a hard time calling Russell the GOAT is that his style of play was so dependent on his era. As you say, rules have changed to favor offensive players. In today’s era, under today’s rules, Russell’s style of play would be much less effective. As a big man who could play in the paint or on the perimeter, he would still be valuable. But he couldn’t shut down a team by controlling the paint.
But with Russell’s world class athleticism, height, length, competitiveness, and basketball IQ, he might find an entirely different way to dominate.
I’ll just echo others to say I’m incredibly excited for this series. I’m just trying to figure out what you will consider Jordan and James’ peak years. Also, I’m curious about Duncan vs. Garnett.
I think the main concern with Russell is his offensive game. Even if you think he'd be the best defensive player in any era (and he certainly has a case for that), you'd basically also have to argue his defensive impact would be so immense that it would outweigh his limitations as a scorer compared to other GOAT candidates.
His defensive accomplishments in his era still put him in the upper echelon, but that's one thing I question about him.
Yeah, it's fair. Trying to give all eras to any one player is hard enough when the eras are so different, but it's all the more so for a player who has some monstrous strengths and some deficiencies, because it's easy to argue a different era would downplay the strengths and highlight the deficiencies. This leads to a (not necessarily irrational) bias towards well-rounded players in all-time rankings compared to their statistical impact in their era. But, well, you can only actually play for the era you're in.
Yeah, in his monthly Q&A he said he believes that it is unlikely Russell would be able to impact the game today like he did in his era. He said that he believes that the research out there suggests a "resounding no," to the idea a player could have MVP level impact based on defense alone.
The thing is, who is to say there is one right way to play basketball? Like sure Russell may not have the same impact today as he did years ago, but vice-versa, would Steph have the same impact he does today in Russell's era? I think the idea of impact relative to era, is that you find a way to impact the game you are in. You have to deal with what you are dealt and Russell innovated defense in many ways.
Another reason is his rival being ridiculously better than him at basketball.
In later eras, Russell would have had the benefit of learning from later generations of players who came before him, and I think he would have been a much better player offensively, maybe something like Amare Stoudamire.
I think this channel is gonna reach 200k with the new serie.
Keep going ben
this series is incredible. thank you.
Wilt was better. If Auerbach had gotten Wilt like he wanted this wouldn't even be a discussion. Wilt always ran the offense that his coach wanted. He cared about his stats but he still bought in to whatever offense his coach wanted and once he actually got other scorers in 1967 he gladly sacrificed his scoring numbers and they beat the Celtics in 5 and won the championship.
I agree with that but because he never actually showcased that we can only speculate so imo I would still have to put russel obove him
Anytime Wilt had a good coach his teams set records for winning.
the only aspect of the game that Russel was indeed BETTER, not a matter of debate like the video or anything else, was MENTALLY. Russel wanted to win, Wilt wanted to win but winning wasnt his top priority. Wilt only focused to win when he realized he was made a joke of for losing to Russel even tho he was supposed to be better.
Wilt cared too much about what people thought of him and that made him weak, i think that is also what fucked up his FTs as well, cause that few seconds is where everyone was 100% focusing on him and more often than not rooting for him to miss.
@@rodangrahf Wilt was actually a great underhand free throw shooter but he said it made him look like a "sissy" so he switched to the conventional way.
Wow that Bob Cousy dime at 12:25 was super nice!
Such great work. People dont appreciate the impact of a Russell. keep these coming even in 2022
Really excited to get into this series, sounds very interesting! Defo will be ordering the book!
i really really really wish that stephen A. smith would watch this and learn. i bet he will watch it, but i’m not holding my breath that he’ll learn from the master... thanks for a stellar vid, ben. so excited for this series!!!!
stephen a is paid to be wrong and it's no question why when his name is in your mouth
Wilt was an absolute terror on defense as well.
Jonathan In 1962 Wilt won the scoring title (50 ppg), yet he lost the Game 7 of the 1962 EDF against the Celtics and got outscored by Sam Jones 28 to 22. Where was the 100 points and 50 ppg when it actually mattered? Sam Jones also hit the game winner over Wilt as the Celtics won Game 7, 109-107.
Once again, keep in mind that the 1961/62 Sixers had the absolute worst defense in the league, and it was reflected in Russell's high fscoring.
In the 1962 playoff series alone Bill Russell had games of 31, 31, and 29 pts in the series. Bill Russell never in his career averaged 19 ppg in a season, but he averaged over 20 ppg vs Wilt in both the 1960 and 1962 playoff series - in spite of the fact that Russell was trrrruya team-first player who usually did not need to score to dominate a game (à la Bird).
In 9 playoff meetings against Russell, Wilt's ppg decreased from his regular season every time, while Russell's increased on multiple occasions.
@@casualfandestroyer2503 dude why do you always spam stuff in every basketball yt commen section, do something with your life
@@casualfandestroyer2503 Well yes having a better team and strategy will often lead to better numbers and worse numbers for the opposition. Russell on multiple occasions said they had to stack their team to defend Wilt alone, he was a one man wrecking crew. When he got better players around him, he scored less and passed more leading to him winning. Similar to Jordan in the 80s, at some point taking and scoring all the shots, even if efficient, hurts the team.
Oldie wilt Block 🚫 jabber skyhook shot bunch of times
Old Wilt block 🚫 jabber skyhook shot bunch of times ,wilt put Kareem Abdul jabber skyhook shot on the 🗑 🚮 can , knock the air out of the skyhook shot
I will recommend this series to anyone I know that knows basketball. Awesome video!!!
This is fantastic. I really do love your analyses.
Wilt and Bill played against each other for 10 seasons. I took their ranking in different categories, and produced an average ranking for that year. Example: if you came in first each season your ranking would be 1.0.
Defensive Win Shares: Bill(1.1) Wilt(2.9)
Total Win Shares: Bill(5.3) Wilt(1.4)
PER: Bill(10+) Wilt(1.2) Bill didn't crack the Top 10 enough for me to calculate a
proper total. He did finish 9th or 10th a few times, though
So, over the 10 years they played against each other, Wilt was a much better defensive player than Bill was an offensive player. Bill is an all-time great, but Wilt was far superior based upon advanced analytics. He had the best Total Win Shares and PER, 8 out of the 10 years and even beat out Bill one year for most Defensive Win Shares. Bill did win every other year in that 10 year period, which is quite amazing in itself.
Marco wolf “The Celtics also ran the pick-and-roll over and over again, freeing up Sam Jones and John Havlicek for open jumpers as Wilt again showed himself reluctant to leave the paint and cover the shooters who had been freed by Russell’s picks. Alex Hannum screamed from the sidelines for Wilt to switch, but to no avail as Jones, Havlicek, and point guard Larry Siegfried combined for 61 points”.-the rivalry John Taylor. This is how wilt ending up blowing the 3-1 lead to bill Russell in 1968
@Marcowolf9685 wilt scoring dropped 8/8 playoff series against Bill Russell, 6/8 his efficiency dropped and 7/8 he lost even though Wilts team had the better record 4/8 times including the best record in the league from 1966-1968 , and 1969 having second best record in the league while Russell 69 team finished last playoff spot and still won
This channel almost got me thinking I would want to study statistics in college but then I took my required STAT250 class and found out I more just like basketball lmao.
lol
This series made me a subscriber. Looking forward to more.
This might be your best video. Incredible
It's a crazy thing how much the mainstream media basketball "analysts" undervalue defensive contribution. Pure scorers who are absolute defensive liabilities are always celebrated while defensive oriented guys are ignored.
There's this latest conversation with Shaq being salty with Rudy Gobert's contract with him not being deserving of that contract because "He averages 11 points". I'm not saying Gobert's a Bill Russell but why do we do we balk at the sight of overpaying defensive guys but not purely offensive-minded players?
Bruh some of those Big Bill blocks were stupid impressive
1:11 that dish was crazy
Bill Russell greatest shot blocker ever
@@lloydkline6946 nah wilt was better.
@@jesuschrististhelord9937 i.got wilt 1973 book, wilt happily admitted bill Russell was better at shot blocker., rebounder, He also said bill Russell could not score on a step latter
@@lloydkline6946 I doubt that’s true. But would love to see it
I’m so excited for this good job brother love all the videos 👍🏻
I love this series. Its been so educational!
I have a request: would you mind creating a series for the best off ball/hybrid/connective tissue players in modern NBA history? Say Pippen, Rodman, Draymond Green, Ginobili, etc.
A fun thought experiment is thinking ab what the best possible all time team could be. And, that means not just the best players, but the best players who could mesh well together. Having listened and learned so much from you ab whats made great players great, I'd rly love to learn from your perspective on that group of great players not necessarily viewed as all timers but who made championships happen.
If you don't mind, I'm rly curious for your perspective on those maybe slightly less celebrated all time greats who helped mesh great individual running mates into great teams.
Bill Russell always gonna be my favorite player of all time. Lebron and Jordan are close favorites but Russell is for me the single greatest competitor in the history of competive sports. In 15 championship or 1st place games/series over 15 years, Russell led 14 titles. He even dominated in high school. My favorite stats of his time with the Celtics: 27-2 in playoff series for his career, 10-0 in game 7s. He was absolutely a maniac who wanted to win more than anyone. He made every teammate better just like Magic and his all time BBIQ is clearly evident by his last two titles, in which he was both the head coach AND starting center at 34/35. He led the first 1-3 deficit comeback against prime Wilt and then the first Finals 0-2 comeback including a road game 7 to close his career. Plenty of players have the better highlight reel, but Russell might just be the single most valuable player ever: his measured defensive impact and playoff results will never be matched.
Prime Wilt was 7 seasons.. 59/60 - 65/66
@@markbaldwin8339 I dont agree but he beat him every single time in those seasons. 67-69 Wilt was the ideal combo of passing, scoring and elite defense.
One Huge Point Ben misses (and many other young bucks who don't know what happened back then): During Wilt's scoring years, the owner pushed the point for Wilt to score because he was the highest paid, and he wanted Wilt to sell tickets (all about money, not winning).
Ben and others make it seem that Wilt did that on his own; no, that is not true. Coaches did not like it either but they had to submit to the owner.
Another key point that is not considered by Ben (and others who did not see the games): Especially during the playoffs, the refs let other teams kill Wilt with intentionally uncalled heavy fouls; after games, Wilt was bruised up--visibly, which kept his scoring down in the playoffs.
I am an old-head from Philly who saw Wilt play, read the papers, and listened to the radio (which was big back then); you young guys only see snippets of his play and are swayed by biased reporting that was heavily against Wilt (the press really did not like Wilt, who was a proud black man who spoke his mind, a bad trait to the white press back in those overtly racist days); listen to those who played with and against Wilt or those who seem both Wilt and MJ, they say Wilt is the GOAT.
The style of play back then is not Wilt's fault.
Ben makes Wilt's stamina a negative.
@risingschool234 makes great points to further debunk Ben's biased reporting.
Good points, I wasn’t aware of any of that.
Wilt average 50s points average 1961/ 1962, then 1962/ 1963 wilt average 44s point a game , I hear wilt was a much better defender when his scoring average went down
I'm spreading this to whoever I can. GOAT Basketball content. One of the only things I think is worth me donating to
yes! series like this and Clayton Crowley's Making the Case are the best sort of analytical videos out there!
Why couldn't any other player play as many minutes as Wilt? The fact that no player didn't is amazing in of itself. At one point Wilt was averaging 70 points a game in the 62' season. Why wouldn't you pass it to Wilt?
You don't need to keep playing once you're up by 30 and the game is about to be over. Granted, that wasn't always the case but the inverse (that EVERY game was close and down to the wire) wasn't true either
@@andreingramakadjscrewrip7372 If you think any player can just go play 48 minutes, scoring 60-70 points, you're insane. Even the best superstars need to get a rest even when they're not leading.
Even in the playoff championship game, they can't play 48 minutes, there's a limit to human physique. Chamberlain far surpasses the average professional athletes.
Wilt’s efficiency was out of this world. MJ’s peak fg% was 10th in the NBA. Wilt was 1st in fg% in the NBA 10 times.
He’s a center
@@Chillboyhaad doesn’t matter. He scored the ball extremely efficiently WHILE scoring a ton of points. Most centers are only capable of shooting extremely efficiently because they catch and dunk and are high usage players. Wilt was extremely high usage and extremely efficient
@@TheRealAbraxas You can't compare FG% across different positions because a center is always going to have the highest FG%. eFG% and TS% are more effective in determining the more efficient player.
@@Chillboyhaad you bring up TS%… then why does Shaq get a tremendous amount of credit for being an unstoppable scorer, leading the league in FG% 10 times, when he was a shitty free throw shooter. When Wilt is the only other player to lead the league in FG% 10 times and was a shitty free throw shooter. Yet Wilt was a finesse scorer that shot fadeaways, finger rolls, you can find clips of him doing the dream shake. His dominant scoring was much more impressive than Shaq’s
@@TheRealAbraxas wilt FT% lost his team lots of close games bill russell shot 68% in his elimination games not 45% like wilt
Awesome video. Keep it up man!
Damn, those 18 minutes just flew by. This was amazing, and I wish all nba fans followed this channel
I think when analysing Wilt's offence like this, you have to consider his teammates and coaches. Let's be honest, if he had great teammates during his prime, he would've won more. Also, for what it's worth Russell only averaged 37% from the floor against Wilt. Interesting video!
Luke Phillips Looking back, Wilt had five chances to knock Near ready to retire bill Russell out of the playoffs in ‘68 (3-1 lead ) and ‘69 (3-2 lead ) with a superior team-including two game 7s at home-and only needed to submit one monster performance to pull it off.Each time, he couldn’t do it .Each time , Russell’s inferior team prevailed.Each time wilt whines about it afterward. If Jerry west was MR clutch , than wilt was MR crutch
Luke Phillips In 8 playoff meetings against Russell, Wilt's ppg decreased from his regular season every time, while Russell's increased on multiple occasions.
@@casualfandestroyer2503 But Wilt's Stats were still better than Bill's. Like most of the time. Across the board, when you compare them head to head, Wilt was better
@@MrSuperman957 and thats all Wilt has. Like Kareem said he's remembered as a loser, stats and all. He cared more about that than being the best teammate which he only learned from 67-72. He had the best two teams in the league during that time and blew series leads to Russell and got shown up by Reed and Kareem before finally winning his 2nd.
@@geordiejones5618 You're acting like it was his fault that his team shot 30% from the field when he had a "good" team. If you read his biography, his team was hampered by injuries in 1968. Or that he was old and blew a knee (losing his lateral movement) in 1969. If he hadn't hurt his knee, he would have won from 1969-1971
And Kareem changed his tune ages ago. Wilt is not remembered as a loser. That's only casual talk. Most Basketball enthusiasts remember him as the most dominance force in NBA history. People from that time (including his adversary Russell) remember him as a crazy force who they were regularly scared of getting embarrassed by. (like the 55 rebounds game that left Bill distraught)
Man won 2 rings. If he's a loser, then literally everyone in the Celtics era is a loser too.
And you forget that an old Wilt with a busted knee won decisively against Kareem in their last playoff battle enroute to his second chip. It was on the papers everywhere
And he always cared about winning. People forget that his coach was the one who asked him to score 50 a game that season. It wasn't his decision
Wilt was so astounding in terms of strength and talent and athletic ability. Still one of the GOATs. But he was in love with himself and tbh it's hard to blame him. It's hard not to just look at him and immediately give him the ball. He really was a Goliath--kind of the first pariah for individual, overpowering greatness so impressive that it can make people blind to how it ultimately doesn't help the team as much as you'd think when it's made to be the first offensive option. Real hubris.
AND it was the first time we'd seen players like him and Russell. The head to head comparison of styles needed at least one trial run for us to understand which style worked better in terms of team success. We had to learn through practice. AND it took a long time afterwards anyway to go much further than basic stats, pointing to championships, and the eye test!
Russell had better teammates and Wilt’s coaches always just ran a gameplan of “get wilt the ball” unlike Red Aubach
@@night6724with Russell they won 11 rings and were the best defense and team in the league. without russell they were ass on defense and didn't make the playoffs. wilt's hero ball didn't work, as the video showed. only when he scored less did he see success
@@11DowningStreet no they weren’t that’s a lie. Maybe later on but not early on. In fact in his rookie year, because he was at the Olympics he missed a third of the season and the Celtics actually did better without him versus when he finally debuted. Now obviously he didn’t drag the team down but it certainly doesn’t make the case he was the key to success
@@11DowningStreet Also despite wilt’s scoring his teammates did get their touch’s. Paul Azarin still had like 24 points per game (roughly equal to his career average) in his couple of years with Wilt before retirement
@@night6724 in 55-56 the Celtics had a 54% win percentage and had the 3rd worst defense.
in 56-57 the celtics had a 61% win percentage, the best defensive rating and best net rating, and the highest margin of victory, and went on to win the championship that year.
from 1957-69 the Celtics had a 72% win percentage with Russell, and were .500 without him
if you watched the video you would also see that russell leads wilt in WOWYR. he made his teammates better. if you also watched the video you wouldn't be telling me that the Celtics being at worst a top 2 defense was a lie.
wilt was a good floor raiser with his scoring, obviously that helps but im literally correct when i say that he won chips when he scored less and passed more. if you watched the video you can see his team's had more success when he had a lower true shot attempt to assist ratio
I'm always having a great day when Thinking Basketball uploads :)
Love this series you are a master bro, people should respect your job
"When an unstoppable force meets an immovable object".
Russell was an amazing player and nobody could play defense at his level. Russell and Wilt were so good they were the only real opponents for each other
your channel is amazing. keep it up.
This is literally the best channel on youtube
This is awesome
I agree with everything here, but there's one small gap in your reasoning regarding Wilt's team offenses. The Lakers offense in the early 70s was sky high because of Jerry West. That can't be entirely attributed to Wilt embracing a Bill Walton role.
this video also conveniently ignores the fact that Wilt lead the league in FG% a whopping 10 fucking times, while putting up these massive numbers. For reference, Wilt and MJ are the only players to average 30 ppg for their careers, yet MJ's peak FG% was 10th in the NBA. Wilt was a WILDLY efficient player
This is so great!
Thank you
Channels and content like this are such a breath of fresh air. I feel like anytime you talk basketball with someone new, you are forced to either walk away (due to their nuclear level bad takes) or dump a few courses of NBA knowledge to get them up to speed. Volume scoring is only so impactful, creating easy offense for your team as a whole is the one of the key markers of an all-time great, assists are an absolutely terrible stat, rebounds, blocks, and steals are a poor proxy for measuring defense, how team defense is different than one-on-one defense and why both matter, the concept of efficiency, the concepts of pace, the concepts of hard to measure factors (culture, getting teammates involved can help them play better even if they may the be seemingly less efficient option, etc.).
Love this channel! Should be required course material for TV analysts and commentators. That would hopefully raise the collective basketball IQ of fans to an acceptable level.
Edit: Love that Ben Wallace gets some love. Such an underappreciated player. And people forgot that he got hurt right before the 2003 playoffs and suffered a decline afterwards. Most missed his true peak!
Scoring isn't offense. Especially, it wasn't in the 60's. You could be a very good offensive player without shooting: setting screens, moving without the ball, trailing the fast break, outletting the ball, passing, offensive rebounding, etc. Russell did all these things better than Wilt yet was considered "bad" on offense by people that read the box score without seeing the game.
14:06 Damn Bill Dunked on Wilt 👀
Nothing better than Ben’s videos on a chill evening