A ton of people asking about the years ('89-91) -- it was actually really clear cut to me. First step and explosiveness start to wane a little by '91, along with his motor. Since so much of his game is based off that, he couldn't quite generate as many advantages by '93 on offense (can see this in dip in free throw rate), and the slight reduction in motor made him a little less active on defense (where his playmaking is key). Additionally his box based stats and impact stats both peak in this period ('89-91), along with his on/off stats we tracked (+/- is less impressive in the '92 postseason). 1988 is a bit different, because his athleticism/motor were still incredible so he peaks on defense, but his passing and shot selection weren''t as polished as the ensuing seasons.
@@clipperssuck2450 only because of his overrated longevity and that was back in 2017 before many advanced stats were constructed 🤡 and the old bpm was still present before it accounted for efficiency
@@samhartje723 I'm fine with him being nitpicky and I adore the series. I just think he undersold the value of Jordan's high risk defense, especially next to Scottie's defense and the chaotic synergy it created on the court. I don't quite understand his argument for Jordan being only a really good wing defender, as opposed to a great one. To me, the errors Jordan frequently made are the cost of the high level defense, much like turnovers are natural for high level passers.
Ben, you're a blessing. Finally someone taking this conversation leaving out the dogma of MJ being the perfect player. For people like me that came too late to actually see him play on a day to day basis, this is the first time I have an objective and analytic view on this incredible player who is often buried under the narrative he holds. You have all of my gratitude.
My friend, you should branch out your basketball content! Ben is great but there are other great analysts as well and it makes me sad that this is your only source for intelligent commentary!
And, he won 6 of 6 finals and never went to a 7 game in a final. He knew when to hold them and when to fold em. Coach Phil drew up some of that back side pressure due to catching tendencies seen on film from opponents. The bull defense created over play causing havoc and scrambling switches to compensate and cover the other team. If he lost on a gamble, he would say my bad and be good to make it up on offense 😏.
13:50 Damn, MJ's playmaking really stacks up nicely compared to some of the great passers ever. It's because his creation isn't limited to simply racking up assists - his mere presence on the floor makes life SO much easier for his teammates offensively. Also, this video made me realise that I've been misunderstanding some aspects of his greatness. He has such a monstrously high peak not because his defense was necessarily as impactful as his offense, but because his offensive peak is so damn high (with his unparalled scoring and vastly underrated playmaking) that his defense being simply really good is enough to push his OVERALL impact to near-untouched levels. Fantastic work by Ben, this series is amazing.
Physically, he was just different! Interesting to note that his peak may have been at its highest when his physical “freakishness” was. He was a more well rounded offensive player in the mid 90s but in the late 80s he was simply too quick and jumped too high.
@@JoshOlawale Jordan really has 2 stretch of greatness, physical greatness 86-88 and skill greatness 91-93. Ben chose the in between, to talk about both sides. His peak physical is the most dominant in nba history beside Wilt and Shaq, who had way more obvious physical dominance but lacked jordan' skillset.
@@willhooke I meeeean, voters back then lacked the info we have now. To say that Jordan had the defensive impact that bigs had in such a paint driven league is nonsense.
I grew up in Chicago, born in 77’. I was just starting to follow sports closely when MJ joined the Bulls. I didn’t understand as a 10 year old kid, how good he was. To me, he was the best player on the Bulls by a lot, and I knew he was one of the better players in the league. It didn’t dawn on me that he was a sports icon, until we were on vacation in Florida, and a shopping mall shoe store was FILLED with Michael Jordan shoes, jerseys, gigantic murals.......it was a Foot Locker, but it might as well have been a Michael Jordan/Nike store......because thats all they seemed to advertise. Sure, me and all my friends had his shoes.....but we lived in Chicago. I figured every city had their star player and everyone bought their shoe. By the time the Bulls started winning titles, I knew that not only was he the best, but he was the most recognizable person on the planet. It wasn’t just that he won and filled the stat sheet. It was the way he moved. I could see a shadow of Michael Jordan moving with the ball, and I could tell it was him. His moves weren’t just show-boating, they had purpose. A big man dominated league was changing. For the first time it didn’t matter how many 7 footers were guarding the rim. MJ would just go around them, or over them. His athleticism was so off the charts, it really didn’t matter what size he was. And the defense....my god, he put the same maximum effort into defending every time. He frustrated opponents, constantly getting int he way, closing passing lanes, and was constantly swiping at the ball. Recency bias is a thing. I know that its hard to imagine somebody better than LBJ when you never watched a prime MJ play live. Lebron is a great player. No question. Michael Jordan though, its hard for me to imagine another athlete being so far ahead of ALL of his peers, at any time in history. “When the best player in the world, is also the hardest working player on your team, that pretty much sets the tone.” ~ Steve Kerr
i say Jordan in his prime, I saw Lebron,Lebron can control the game,Micheal can take over a game.You saw Lebron play Jordan many times but Lebron was called Magic Johnson back in the day,the difference is that Lebron is an athletic version of Magic
Dude, when we visit South Africa and Namibia in 1994, Michael Jordan's posters where all hanging and posted around in Johannesburg and Windhoek. And basketball was not even the most popular sports in that country, it's football and cricket.
@@CitsVariants I don’t think so. He would have to adjust to the new 3 point era first. He would also have have to adjust to more versatile defenders like mikail bridges, Tobias Harris, and Giannis Antetokounmpo.
Exactly people always overlook that he was averaging 5-6+ rebounds in a era dominated by big men and a congested paint because PF and C didn’t leave the paint like today’s game with stretch bigs great analysis brother I thought I was the only one who thought that
What's not discussed enough is how valuable MJ's fantastic off ball ability was, and how it allowed Pippen to be the great playmaker that he was by allowing him to have the ball to make plays with. Had MJ just played the way he did in '88-'89 when he averaged 32.5/8/8, which was similar to how Lebron and Westbrook play being ball dominant and running pick and rolls or Iso drive and kick all the time, it's reasonable to think he would've continued to improve along those lines and averaged lines like 37/10/10, but that kind of ball dominance would prevent players like Pippen from utilizing their playmaking abilities. Hence, Jordan made Pippen better by being willing to play off ball. As Jordan said in The Last Dance, he initially did not like Phil Jackson taking over, because Doug Collins had put the ball in his hands all the time, whereas Phil wanted to take the ball out of his hands more and utilize his off ball abilities so that players like Pippen and BJ could use their playmaking abilities as well.
Exactly, goes to show that the numbers behind stats have important context to them. It's not always as simple as...this number is this, so therefore this player is inferior or superior at doing this for example.
Excellent point about MJ playing off ball and in the Triangle offence. MJ’s numbers would’ve been even better if he was more ball dominant...though he probably wouldn’t have won as many titles. Plus I wholeheartedly believe MJ shaped Pippen into the HoFer he became ~ imagine having to play against an alpha male like MJ during every Bulls practice?!
imagine Jordan playing the point guard like Lebron or Harden nowadays in this open space era. he played some point in 1988 and he average 32.5/8/8 for the season.
Think it goes to show that no matter how good your #1 guy is, there's such thing as going to him too much. Good teams don't let their talent go to waste. Letting good players stand around while the best player does all the scoring and creating is not a great way to get the most out of your team.
Without a doubt Jordan was the most fluid player. Just the way he moved there was a style to it. Behind him to me is bird. They're both play their own pace but Jordan was just so acrobatic
From the games I've seen from MJ he doesn't seem to be that different from todays guards though. People like Murray, Kyrie, Dame, Morant all move this fluid. What let's MJ stand out is his vertical jump and hang time, but that's it ^^'
@@okdre9276 bro, when you watch Jordan take it to the hole Even looks different. there's a clear difference between the grace that Jordan had versus players today even Kobe. Jordan just had more style
Agreed. His ability to move off-ball was something none of the heir apparents were able to emulate. So many offensive players nowadays are very ball dominant, and become dead weight once the ball leaves their hands on offense.
@@spiidey1 exactly, its a fundamental skill that many modern players lack making the game harder for them to play and uglier for us to watch. Most of the players/teams that dominate and win the most, master the fundamentals and play the game the way it was meant to be played
True, and the way that he shot behind the screen so no defenders were as close as when they double or triple teamed him. Plus, this era is soft, look at those Knicks defenders trying to put him on the ground.
Haha. I was waiting and swiping down, swiping down. Don't tell anyone but I'm not sure mj is the peak in bball. Can't wait for (hopefully) the kobe and lebron episodes. Fantastic stuff my dude.
@@abidurrahmannajib4092 I'm ok with that two bens having different opinions. I'm not even sure what I think. I watch stuff like this to help my decision, which I doubt I'll ever be settled on. But to have the marbles to entertain the idea that mj wasn't the goat at everything he touched, well that's due for some appreciation in my book.
Jordan is freaken Thanos with all 6 infinity stones: 1) Mind - Killer Mentality 2) Power - Explosive First Step 3) Reality - Control and Mastery of the Ball 4) Soul - Unmatched Artistry 5) Space - Created with his Amazing footwork 6) Time - Hang Time!
Also for mind u can add how he placed fear into his opponents. Like what people from his era said most guys were straight up sacred of mj even some of his teammates. Dude was so scary they started calling him the black Jesus. Man mj was just different. There have been so many great players in history but nobody sacred the living shit out of you like mj did.
This is a great video. I think one of the biggest thing that is overlooked here is his low turnover rate. For a player with such high usage, his turnover rate is abysmally low against other high volume scorer or creators (look at James Harden, Russell Westbrook, etc). His jump pass turnovers and his lack of anticipation on his passes are rare occasion than norm and did not result in him turning the ball over needlessly. In a way, his offense game is way less chance taking than his defense game, and I am not sure if having Pippen, an all-time great wing defender, in his back pocket, played into some of those gambles and playing the passing lane on the defensive end. He knows very well that more than likely enough those gambles will turn into fastbreak points, and if it doesn't pan out, there is a big chance that Scottie is there to help. IMO that's smart play, and you see it in the +/-. Fantastic video!
For real, on Defense, if I was the coach, I would want Jordan terrorizing offenses like that. It gets into people's heads. Yeah, you need a rotation plan behind that, but I would let Jordan off the leash to demoralize opponents. Nothing feels worse than turnovers that lead to fastbreak points.
Among every player who averaged atleast 5 assists per game for their careers, Jordan has the lowest assists/turnovers ratio in NBA history. That aspect of his is certainly underrated.
Endless amounts of energy and extreme levels of competitiveness combined with high levels of skill who was never satisfied so he kept working on his game. MJ and Kobe will always be my favorite to watch.
Facts I wasn't around from the jordan era. But that's definitely what i gather from watching his highlights. Played with a hunger and a passion on both offfense AND defense
And after watching both back-to-back, what I saw is that they were more identical than we thought. Same exact strengths, same weaknesses, Jordan was slightly better on defense because he had a slightly higher motor, but otherwise identical. Also, he doesn’t make it a point to single out and dive deeper into some of the weaknesses he mentioned about Jordan but he does with Kobe.
I wouldn’t say his “playmaking” is underrated, but rather simply his “passing” and “vision”. Also I mean when you’re the greatest scorer ever, other aspects of your game are bound to be overlooked.
@@alexescutia4805 LeBron’s is VERY a special case. Everyone understands how great LeBron is at many aspects of game. But yeah, with almost every player, you’re best aspect stands out the most. Some examples are, Curry’s shooting, Russell’s defense, etc.
Caruso Highlight Reel yeah but the thing is that people don’t only talk about MJ’s scoring. They mention his defense but NEVER bring up his playmaking ability.
Great to see someone finally give him his props in playmaking. Sometimes I watch clips or segments of games and I'm like, "Man he is actually a really good passer". Even his rookie year he'd still make the right passing play a lot of times, probably due to his UNC coaching. Though some of his missed reads even on this video can be infuriating.
@@injusticeanywherethreatens4810 It was justified in hisbearly years. The bulls were a legit lottery tean and Jordan was by far their best offensive option. By the time of his titles that was not the case.
Finally, a discussion about MJ's greatness without mentioning "Killer Mentality", "Clutch Genes", "Greatest Lockdown Defender of All Time", or any other subjective hyperboles. Amazing work, good people of Thinking Basketball. It helps a lot of people like me, who only have highlight reels and The Last Dance to learn about MJ. Especially, putting his statistical impact at his peak against other greats at theirs, really helps to contextualize how much he actually impacted the game.
Yeah, I totally agree. Years ago I complained that fans fawned over Michael too much, and had the goat conversation locked up for arbitrary reasons. Now I think the Lebron brigade often dismisses his achievements too easily with equally subjective reasoning. This is probably the best objective analysis I've seen.
@@paksta it's probably an age thing. I think I'm a part of the LeBron brigade too, but as I grow older, I'm starting to realize (thanks to content like this and 'Making the Case' series) that the GOAT title probably can never be assigned to anyone. We will all have our favourite player at the end of the day and want that player to be recognized as the GOAT. But, it's really good enough that they are our personal favourites, that their game impacted us deeply enough that we even care about the GOAT conversation.
@@rionshikder813 Wow, that's very insightful. I hate unresolved debates, but I'd be happy to settle on that. Originally, I thought people of my age were too dismissive of guys like Kareem, Wilt, Magic and Bird, and didn't want to engage in s goat debate prior to 2012 at least. But it probably just illustrates your point best of all.
@William Hassell Kobe and Jordan cant really be compared either. Different eras. Kobe's last all star caliber year was in 2013. That's nearly 30 years from Jordan's first. Different pacing, different defensive attention, different rules, different spacing, and different coaching. Besides the obvious similar moves and mannerism, comparing them past that point is pretty unfair to either side.
Tons of full old games and even series are available on the youtube for free. You should delve into that, it's especially fun watching NBA basketball without having to watch hours of commercials. 1992 Finals is especially entertaining iirc, and of course Magic and Bird's 80s Finals duels.
I watched his career from McDonald's All-American to final retirement, and it's really easy to forget that he's always been a disciple of Dean Smith's system, and Phil only gave him that kind of structure to better impact NBA games by spreading the floor to force long-range help creating an easy pass that resulted in wide open looks for a teammate. Hands down the best overall player I've ever seen or gotten torched by(yes, he destroyed me as a young'n during VCU summer league with Oakley the summer after the broken foot & my game got way better like he said it would).
Analytics can advance forever, but there really is no need for numbers or data to know that MJ was to basketball what Shakespeare was to writing. A beautiful piece of writing can't be described; it can only be experienced. Same with MJ. Those of us lucky enough to watch him glide, juke, dip, and fly know that he is the greatest in the same way that we know that the sun is bright. We bathed in it. We felt it. We marveled at what he could do, in every facet of the game. There was no one who struck fear into his opponents like Mike. The only sadness of it is that it is done, and I can't imagine anyone ever being as good.
It's just that he was so fluid, so fundamentally sound, AND that he was able to go and SCORE ALL THE POINTS, defend like a demon, DUNK, Facilitate and Pass, EXPLODE on you, it was just immeasurable to go against him...
It's crazy to see the defensive attention he draws in a lot of these clips, it was pretty common for four players to swarm him when he attacked the rim!
@@jijmotorp3079 to me modern and 90’s basketball are two almost different sports so when I watch I act as if it’s a different sport and that usually makes the clusterfuck less clusterfuckey
Yes ,it made them LAUGH. This is why before he got Pippen to do the solid defensive work, his teams were 55 games below .500. Then after Pippen left in 1998, Jordan returned and his teams were 16 games below .500.
@@emmanuelenyinwa1443 what? He never missed the playoffs with the bulls. You’re low iq. Also a team needs to go 13-69 to be at least 55 games under 500.
@@Mcrappe Well, the Bulls were 55 games under. 500 from 1985, Jordan's rookie season, to 1987-88, Pippen's rookie season. Jordan was below. 500 EVERY SINGLE season he played without Pippen in his career. Those are facts. Jordan was on the only team to make the playoffs while being TWENTY-TWO games under. 500 in 1986 at 30-52 in 1986.
@@emmanuelenyinwa1443 you do realize that’s 22 and not 32, right? And also, that was the year Jordan broke his foot in game 3 in the season. He only played in 18 games that year and was under a minute restriction for the last 15 games when he came back from injury.
I guess the point is with his Defense that he got the steal on Malone in that 98 Finals to win that game and that series. All the gambling payed off in that moment. In the end, he made the plays to win the chip.
We have to consider coaching into this. Bulls gameplan was agressive on the perimeter cause they lacked 1 on 1 defense inside the paint. Half court press, force turnovers on entry passes and double quickly. Stats dont tell the whole story.
@@lebarbosa9778 True, but Jordan was so well calculated. He made all the right plays during the last few possessions of that game. Utah should have won that, but Jordan just took that game from them. Offensively and defensively. It was a perfect couple mins of basketball for Jordan.
@@reneecastle6746 Yea, Isn’t that what this convo is about, the aggressive gambling Jordan played on defense? He was extremely aggressive to where it payed off a lot, but it also hurt him doing it as it led to easy points sometimes. My point is ALL the gambling payed off (since his rookie year) in the last couple mins of game 6 of the 98 Finals because it was a huge reason they won that championship. I can’t think of a moment where Jordan gambled and it lost him a playoff game. Maybe it happened, but it didn’t lose him a series or a chip that’s for sure. And IF his gambling backfired and they lose game 6 and game 7 of that 98 Finals. Well, then I could buy into the criticism of him “Gambling too much” as the analyst in this video insinuates as a negative. I don’t see it as such because the results are what they are. Jordan is one of the greatest defensive wings partly because of his relentless pressure he put on great offensive players and playing D like a cornerback in passing lanes.
Jordan gambling on defense is what helped him lead the league in steals 3 times and finish close to the top the other years. It's no different than a shot blocker going after most shots...sometimes you get it and sometimes you don't. But the greats get it more times than not.
@@krlllx I agree...2 examples would be Allen Iverson & Steph Curry. Both guys led the league in steals but weren't necessarily good defenders. With MJ it was different, he was a good man-to-man defender, good in the passing lanes, good help defender and then you include the steals and blocks.
Watching this the first time I thought, "This sounded a bit harsh toward Michael." But my second time through realized that it was a fair critique of his game. The narrator did a fine job poking holes in some of the invincibility in Jordan's defensive game. This series has been outstanding, and I just wanted the creator to know that I greatly appreciate the content he creates. It's unlike anything out there.
@@martinmackye9865 You have to be kidding me dude. None of those were transcendent both athletically and skill wise. It's either one or the other where the other is "only" great but never once-in-a-generation material. You can make the argument that Jordan is, if not the best (I think he is at both), at least top 3 most skilled and athletic perimeter player in the history of the league. Kobe was the closest to reach this most elite level, but even in his prime he wasn't a once-in-a-generation athlete.
@@GlassOnion23 that's not the argument..... reading comprehension dude....please... Nevermind.... Think what you want. I'm too tired and you're too stupid
@@champspec Well Chamberlain was absolutely dominated by Bill Russell so it is very hard to view WC as the Goat.. not only that but he pulled the 1st super big 3 in history going to LA because he couldn t beat BR and still, with BR retired, he could not even beat those NYK and the only Ring he won in LA was due to Reeds injury... Wilt s numbers were due to Pace, as his team that year played at a 130 Pace, 30 more possessions than today plus he played 48min... Giannis acctually destroyed Wilt s numbers a couple years ago if you do the proper conversions of Pace and min played...
@@2quick4u84 WIlt averaged 40ppg against Russell. Wilt dominated the matchup not the other way around. stop with that foolish narrative. It was the 4 other HOF players russell had with him that doomed Wilt.
Even with MJ’s overly aggressive defense, his motor being inhuman I figure it’s not that big of a deal. Considering how he was on offense that’s truly a testament to his greatness.
The most beautiful basketball player of all time. He moved so well and this quality made the games more enjoyable to watch. I don't know the comparable style but he was absolutely dancing on the basketball court. And this is an absolute quality-- you don't have to compare MJ with other stars to identify the grace he had, but if you compare it you'd realise Jordan is just unique.
@@Quack_attack_ That would mean his full head would be above the rim. He jumps way higher than Gerald Green or James White. That's for sure. He is the greatest!!
....and then blows away our expectations by dropping flaming hot vids in the next decades or so... I feel like we should let Ben do whatever he wants when he wants. It is what it is.
Watching Jordan work in the post was a thing of beauty. The footwork, the fakes, the fadeaway, all of it was watching a master at work. That jumper was deadly too. Can you do an analysis of Scottie Pippen next?
I think your analysis on Jordan's weakness being 3's is wrong. His percentages are highly skewed because of the extremely low number of 3's he took per game. This means that any last second heaves or low percentage late clock bailouts he would take would disproportionally affect his percentage. You said he shot worse when they changed the line, but he also just shot less. And if you look at his career there were 4 seasons where he took 3 or more 3's per game and in those seasons he shot 38% ,35%, 43%, and 37%. (I'm ignoring his return season where he shot 50% in 17 games). In no other season did he average more than 1.5 3's per game. And when you are at that low a number just 10-20 of those last second heaves in an 82 game season can drastically lower your percentage. For example in the 91 season if he takes just 15 of those in the season his percentage falls from 38% to 31%. At best you could criticize him for not taking 3's and spreading the floor more, but when he's so hyper efficient everywhere else I don't know why you would ever want him to.
Another thing to consider is what was the league's avg 3 pt shooting percentage during those years because everyone is not considering the 3 as a big factor to offense unlike today. You'll probably be surprised that he's shooting on par with the league avg which was 33%, meaning, even the so called weakness by many of his critics was not considered as a weakness but the average for the whole NBA during the time he played. 🤯 GOAT things.
@@One.Zero.One101 I don't know how to explain this to you. That is the point. A player is not defined by their peak. The point of the series is not to find out who had the best career. It is not to find the best player. It is to find which three year stretch of basketball was played at the highest level. That's like going to a comedy show and getting miffed that everyone's laughing.
To be fair...Magic was the size of a PF and MJ was too small to handle him in the post. And his gambling on defense gave away more open mid-range shots than 3's against typical wings during his era. Overall, his gambling yielded a net positive on defense in the scheme of things, and also lead to momentum shifting plays in critical points of the game. MJ usually left his man to sneak on big men postups and help on elite penetrators. Switching and not missing on rotations is much more critical today due to the rules, style of play and high volume of corner threes. Also, I remember as MJ got older, he would gamble less on defense to conserve his energy. And he became more shrewd in choosing when to gamble during a game. All in all, MJ's defense was airtight in crunch time.
4:35 That was probably the most impressive part of the video. As he's shooting, he brings the ball low to dodge the block from Isiah, and yet still manages to make it over the defender in front (Salley?). Just absurd.
Jordan’s peak 3pt shooting year in the regular season was 1990 he took 3.0 3PA per game while shooting 37.6%. He shot even higher 3pt percentages in the playoffs from 90-93,which averaged out to around 36%.This was before they shortened the 3pt line.Basketball Analysts like to suggest Jordan was a bad shooter from that range, when that’s simply not the case.
@@fatkatdaboss1505 Yeah, similar to Luka Doncic, Jordan took unnecessary 3's, and that inflates his misses and plummets his actual 3 point shooting percentage. For Jordan to hit 36-37% of his 3's, with as many poor shoots as he took totally suggest he was even greater.
What made Jordan great was his ability to turn his real or perceived weaknesses into strengths through a maniacal work ethic combined with incredible natural gifts. If Jordan was coming into the NBA today, scouts would question his 3pt shooting, instead of jump shooting as they did in the 80's. If that were the case, just as Jordan went from having a "weak" jump shot to the greatest midrange shooter ever, he would probably have been able to do the same from the 3pt line. In short, he takes things personal and works like mad to address whatever that may be.
Jordan is the GOAT because he would always lazer focus onto what people though was a weakness of his and then he would do that "weakness" better than almost anyone in this history of the league.
@@baucedixon8067 don't bother, the conversation will last forever, it seems to me that there's an innate human tendency to fanboy over individuals and not using our brain properly 🤦
A whole lot of his pros and cons discussed in the video were shaped by the pressure and burden of responsibility he put on himself to do everything and single handedly carry the team on his back to victory. Thus, the ball hogging, the 1 v 5 attack, the roaming on defense, etc. he simply didn't have confidence in his teammates, such that he felt he had a better chance scoring over 5 opponents than his teammate did on an open jumper. Or that his team mate wasn't going to stop the opponent with the ball so he had to roam over to defend him too. Eventually, Phil, Pippen and the Triangle Offense fixed all that.
I think Jordan’s off ball game is so underrated. As much as he carried a lot of those Bulls teams offensively, he held the ball way less time than people think. That let Scottie, another very good scorer and great facilitator, hold onto the ball more. Of course, Jordan could cook better than anyone in isolation, but he didn’t have to, and didn’t as much, as most people think
It's always a head scratcher to me when people say he was a mediocre ball handler. The guy was an amazing ball hander. People like to say Kobe was a better ball handler but I disagree, Kobe seemed like a more flashy ball handler but would turn it over quite a bit actually. I can't tell you how many times I seen him bounce the ball off his own foot out of bounds. Just because a dude doesn't do a dribbling exhibition before every game a la Steph Curry doesn't mean he wasn't a great ball handler. Jordan had the cross over, around the back, spin, between the legs, in and out, etc. I always thought he was one of the best ball handlers because he rarely turned the ball over and instead of all the flashiness it was based more around necessity, which I appreciate.
also physical basketball is sometimes so much better to watch than shooting 40 3s a game. Though bad games in the 90s were really bad, like it was so bad you would want to change the rules to help one of the team.
And following his peak, he won two 3-peats with 6/6 in finals, 4 more MVPs, 6 final MVPs. Not really long fall from his peak. MJ at 1993 finals versus Phoenix is the greatest player to ever walk the Earth, with second place to Hakeem in 1995 Western finals.
@German-English I think that Olajuwon gets a decent amount of cred these days, with the analysis videos, but it seems as though he kind of flew under the radar for a number of years in his prime.
@German-English well yeah, Hakeem was a 7 footer. Even though Jordan was a better player hakeem’s size helped negate Jordan’s ability to elevate over defenders
When Mike was in his prime, he was so good that he made people fans who were on opposing teams. He was so good, he basically could've scored 50 points a game. So good that ALL his games we prime time games in the 90s. He was so good, it was like he had a cheat code with the devil that nobody else had. That is saying alot. He created shots, offensive angles, tricks and court vision that nobody ever saw at that point.
I remember hearing other teams fans cheering for him when he'd do something special. U just couldn't deny u were witnessing something pretty incredible!
@@ThinkingBasketball I came to the comment section exactly because of that lol I don't think there's a steal button that is the Y button in any traditional controler, at least for the past 20 years (Nintendo Switch is the exception). And that's beucase, since it's the button at the top, it's the one that reminds people of reaching your hands high the most.
@The Ultimate out of those 3, Kareem is the only one who you could make a case for being over MJ. I'd personally disagree, but I think both are top 3, so you could argue Kareem over MJ. But Wilt and especially Oscar are not close to MJ
@The Ultimate Wilt underperformed in the playoffs, whereas MJ dominated in the playoffs. That's the main thing holding Wilt back from being the GOAT over Jordan.
@The Ultimate I mean he underperformed relative to what he in the regular season. His scoring average always went down in the playoffs, sometimes significantly. He only led the playoffs in scoring once, as opposed to 7 times during the regular season. MJ's averages almost always went up in the playoffs, and he led the playoffs in scoring 10 times just like he did during the regular season.
@The Ultimate always people have excuses. MJ put 63 on the best defense in the league in the playoffs. MJ played against Jordan rules and still put up numbers. Wilt put up numbers against Bill Russell but in the playoffs he couldn't average the same? So he's more like Giannis who always gets stopped by Toronto in the playoffs? No body stopped MJ, and no matter who they put in front of him his averages still went up.
The triangle prioritizes proper spacing then ball movement and he couldn’t be contained with or without the triangle and his basketball fundamentals is what makes him the 🐐 and he didn’t PRACTICE shooting the 3.
"Not an all time defensive wing"? this was a little forced. It was like: lets see the numbers, oh he is top 1/2 ( 21:27 ) , but I am not convinced so Im going to try to find some other numbers ( 22:10 ), oh he is still top 9 with all the centers in front of him.... well Im still going to say that he is not an "All time defensive wing" because I have to criticize something. This series is great and I learn a lot from players that I didnt study before like Walton, but that was a bit forced. I hope you make a second part from MJ, and I want to see Barkley, Miller, Ewing etc. Great Job.
One thing I was really looking to see based on the title was how often Jordan's teammates were able to rebound and get putbacks on his misses with all the attention he drew. These became popularized as "Kobe assists" but as with many things Kobe I'm guessing Jordan was the inspiration and did it better.
yeah they be overhyping him. he was a tall guy who knew how to use his height to his advantage. thats amazing. but not the greatest ever. that is chef curry
@@christiansoldier77 the league wasnt as good when jordan played. between 89 and the 90s they had 6 expansion teams. so it was easier to win. in 98 when jordan won, 5 teams failed to win 20 games. the competition was nowhere near. im grateful he kept the league afloat, but its not even close to be honest. the game is about who can shoot the best in as many scenarios. and that is curry. better free throws, mid range, lay ups, three points. dribbling than jordan. even steve kerr jordans old teammate admitted that he had never seen anyone defended off the ball the way that curry is. literally lebron james and tristan thompson were double teaming him when he didnt have the ball. jordan was defended 1 on 1 by 6 foot kevin johnson the whole series against the suns in 1993, you can look at the video its on youtube. not even close. maybe in your heart, but not reality. and jordan is 6'6 curry is 6'2 and some change. there is a big difference here. even in 96 when jordan won his fourth title the nba had moved the three point line a foot closer to the basket, because the guys were so bad at shooting the scores were very low in a lot of games. when jordan retired the first time in 1994 the bulls only lost 2 more games than they had the year before with him. lets just be honest. scotty pippen was getting double teamed in the post which opened up a lot of oppurtunities for michael. then he had the highest three point percentage shooter of all time when he came back in steve kerr. when curry lost in 2019 to the raptors his teammates shot about 28% on wide open threes. if they had even shot 6% better he would have probably won that year also lol. jordan is nowhere near. his body was just better built for scoring, and he shot a lot more than curry and even more than lebron. im not that impressed to be honest. but still thankful because the league needed him to carry the torch for awhile, because it was that bad in the 90s
@@ast.george3565 They have more expansion teams now you ignoramus so it is more watered down now . Curry is only putting up numbers because they changed the rules to allow more scoring. In the 80s and 90s Curry would only scored about 18 ppg because the play was way more physical. Saying that Jordan only had one man guarding him while pippen was being double teamed is so asinine that I don't even need to say more about that subject SMH
@@christiansoldier77 the league has had 30 teams since the end of the 90s so i dont know what you are saying. the referees dont help curry at all. they admitted to giving michael jordan favoritism because they needed him to preserve the league during those dark years of the 90s when all the 80s legends were retiring. you dont know the game, and the play was only more physical in the 90s because of all of the inexperienced amateur players who got called up to fill out the expansion team rosters, as there was no g league system back then. the g league started in 2001 so of course the players today are much better, because they are groomed in a professional atmosphere within the nba. trust me i have this video i show my jordan fan friends where the great penny hardaway let jordan shoot over him on back to back shots while his arms were pinned to his side... i have to see if there is a way that i can find out if he was in foul trouble or what lol but the fact that they had to move the three point line a foot closer for 3 years in the 90s had nothing to do with roughness. the guys were not as professional, and Jordan even wrote about the unprofessionalism of many of the guys in the league back then in his book "For the Love of the Game" where he called out 90s greats like penny hardaway and grant hill as being stars fading in the wind. i own the book, if you are such a jordan fan you should too.
Also to clarify, Pippen was drafted the same year as Grant. All the MJ-haters clearly don’t really know anything about MJ, as they go specifically to Pippen to try and belittle MJs accomplishments, while ignoring Grant. Grant was still on the team when Jordan retired and they added Kukoc as well. BJ Armstrong was coming into his own and both Grant and BJ upped their numbers the next year alongside Pippen’s whopping 1 PPG increase his highest scoring per year in 1994. Armstrong brought way more to the table as a PG than Paxson, who retired along with Jordan. When Grant left the following year, it’s no surprise the Bulls were on the verge of not making the play-offs until Jordan actually comes back and they go from the 8th to 5th seed. Pippen never carried the Bulls.
Only thing I'd note is that you made a point in a previous video about how not all risky assists are the same. Some assists are high reward (leading to extremely high % shots), and low risk (give ample time to get back on defense if turned over). Others are not. I think it'd be interesting to apply that same lens to the risk-taking we see from Jordan on defense. Good risks leading to easy breakaway points, or give the chance for teammates to rotate if the risk isn't a success. Bad risks, being those more similar to the reaches on Magic that are high risk, low reward (eg those aren't turning into easy transition points). Thanks for the phenomenal content as always, Ben.
I wouldn’t say those are equal though. A gamble on defense basically leaves the defender in a very vulnerable position and gives the offensive player a very high quality look. A gamble with passing would just lead to a turnover which doesn’t automatically generate a good look in and of itself, as the player then obviously has to get to the other end of the court to attempt to score.
@@luobomu9747 He's kind of like a mix of Luigi and Peach. Getting up there fast and then staying there for a while Peach style. I find the second 3-peat more impressive because that hang time was gone, destroyed by the baseball training. 87-93 is god mode for a basketball player. Both ends at all times for ridiculous minutes.
Crazy how this video tries to knock his defense while also showing that he rated out at the “top of the heap.” I do appreciate that you stated it was hard to evaluate his style of defense. He reminds me of the NBA’s version of Ed Reed. If you combed through Reed’s tape, you’d probably see plenty of swings and misses. But he made plays nobody else could even dream of making and completely shifted a game’s momentum with his knack for making the big play. You might want to grade out the more fundamentally sound guy who’s always in position higher, but you know that guy won’t make the game changing, turn defense into offense type plays of someone like Ed Reed.
But that's kinda the point. You can see the gambles, you can see the steals and block that go the other way for points. People don't remember the failed gambles that give up easy layups. And it's hard to even notice the points not given up by being in your spot and bringing the opponent shooting percentage down. That might add more to winning a game, making it not close or giving you a cushion, than the highlight reel plays. If you're in the right spot, the opponent will probably pass it away rather than make a bad shot. Although I will say that there is a moral component to those dagger plays, that can shake the opponent's will. It's just hard to say what value that is. Some might crumble or droop. But how does that affect the play on the court? It's hard to say.
Thinking basketball was instantly my favorite basketball channel when I saw breakdowns of players in 2019. The vids keep getting better and better. Thank you Ben!
Some of your criticisms were a little nit picky. In terms of your overall ranking of Jordan defensively, you opted not to take into account Jordan's usage offensively. For him to have the impact he had defensively while also leading his team averaging 35+ ppg is incredible. I'd be interested to know the defenders you have ranked over Jordan so I could evaluate what their offensive responsibilities were. Also in reference to Jordan "not seeing certain open teammates", I'm sure he missed open teammates sometimes. But I'm also sure there were times he saw the open teammate and simply said "Nah, I'm shooting it". All in all though great great video.
I kind of agree, because in case of Allen Iverson, he would have more assist if his teammates can actually convert. The probability of Jordan scoring over a triple team sometimes is better than say passing it to an open Bill Cartwright, then totally missing the shot in point blank range 😅
Because how great of an impact you make on defense doesn't depend on how much you impact your team offensively. Sure, MJ has godlike stamina to be that offensive loaded and still be and all time great perimeter defender, however, if offensive load is taken into consideration on how great a defender was, then "X" would be a greater defender based on an analysis that includes the other side of the floor instead of the one it is suposed to be strictly taken into account. In that case, Jordan is a greater defender than Pippen, Wilt is a greater defender than Russell, Kobe is a greater defender than Payton and so on. I think this analysis was great precisely because it humanizes MJ's stamina and its effects on his defensive impact instead of recognizing the misguiding and mythifying narrative of "he was the best defender in the league while being the best offensive player in the league"
@@rogeliochavez40 No. I get the point that you're trying to make. But no. At the end of the day basketball is a sport that requires players to play both offense and defense. There is a finite amount of energy that a professional athlete can exert. If you have fewer offensive responsibilities you can give more on defense (Ben Wallace, Bruce Bowen, Tony Allen etc) and on the flipside less defensive responsibilities means more you can give offensively (James Harden, Luka Doncic, Iverson etc). What you're essentially doing is penalizing Jordan for being a more skilled player. You have to give criteria as to why someone like a Tony Allen is a better defender than Jordan. You can't just nitpick certain plays Jordan had lapses due to fatigue and say that someone else is a better defender. Jordan was 1st team defense 9 times. Allen only 3 times. Jordan won DPOY. Allen never did. Jordan had multiple seasons with 200 steals and 100 blocks. Allen never had 50 blocks in any season nor 140 steals. And Jordan did this while averaging 30+ppg. Not to make this about Allen, but point is you have to give criteria why someone is a better defender than Jordan, don't just show me a person who got to use all their energy on defense.
@@rogeliochavez40 For a player to average 30+ a game and still be all-nba defensive level is freaking insane and Jordan did it so many times it's scary. The analysis was good but truly missed the mark on how incredibly difficult it is to impact the game for so long on both sides of the court. It's almost as if the guy was trying hard to find issues and his own statistical analysis put Jordan at historically elite levels on offense and defense, with or without Pippen. It is easy to find examples of bad plays from every player in the league. There is a reason every single all-star in the league called Jordan the GOAT pretty much the entire time he played. Not sure why this is so difficult to understand, no player had as high a ceiling on both sides as Jordan. Period.
I completely agree with your first point - taking into account his offensive load and effectiveness, the fact that he was still a high-motor impact player on defense is a huge plus for his resume. For your second point though, I would argue that passing up a wide open teammate and forcing his own shot in traffic is something that can be held against him to some extent. Whether he saw the open teammate and chose not to pass or whether he never saw the open teammate at all, the result is the same: passing up a good shot for a worse one. I get why he did it, probably not trusting his teammates in those early years to convert those open looks. And, of course, he was often bailed out by being so athletic and skilled that he could still make a lot of those tough shots anyway. But even so, we can still say his court vision and/or decision making could have been better at times in those early years. He arguably could have provided even MORE offensive value than he had by passing out of double and triple teams more often - which is crazy considering his offensive peak at that time was probably still the greatest the league has ever seen.
MJ had an “attack mindset” to his defence that isn’t really possible with today’s NBA rules. It’s a product of his overall “attack mentality” and made possible through the power he had over his coaches ~ unlikely we’ll see this kind of defence for a while. Having watched thousands of MJ footage, MJ’s defence could and did swing games (and even championship games like against Utah). MJ is one of the best perimeter defenders of all time as well as THE best perimeter scorer of all time. His “gravity” and playmaking ability were also elite. I think he’s the GOAT.
I think the opposite is true. In today's NBA Jordan would hit 50 every game because the fouls are for the ball handlers now... You can't hard foul or hand check nobody today
@@Rayzajw defensive 3 seconds, isn’t zone defense. Y’all must’ve never watched college, or the Olympics, or high school, because they have zone defense, but they don’t have defensive 3 seconds.
@@kristion9774 They had masked zones in the 90s, but illegal defense was still a thing. The offensive players would all go to the weak side to manipulate the help defense.
@@DemonKing-oi4jd and their defenses against perimeter players were more effective back then, than the banned hand checking era, with freedom of movement, small ball, empty paint with no bugs near it, all 5 positions on the 3 point line with the green light, defensive 3 seconds, I mean “zone” era.
I’ve always felt that the 89-90 version of Mj was him at his peak. Where his elite athletic dominance met his skillful dominance. He was completely unstoppable.
True. Honestly if Pippen had really come into his own that season instead of the next, especially in terms of toughness, the Bulls I think win the title in 89-90 after getting past Detroit.
TBH Jordan's defense to me is still underrated. The amount of shots he altered is on the same level as some of the best defensive big men ever and yet his steal rate is one of the greatest of all time, comparable to the best little guards in the game. He completely changed momentum in games with his defensive pressure, which contributed directly to his great offensive impact. Stats only tell part of the story even though Jordan's are insane. OFFENSE AND DEFENSE GO HAND IN HAND it's not really something you can separate like Ben tried to do in this breakdown, players have to do both in basketball and no one was as good at both as Jordan. You can find a better passer but none of them could defend like Jordan. You could possibly find better defenders career-wise but none of them could ever come close to impacting the game offensively like Jordan. Nothing false about Jordan's defensive prowess, especially considering most of his career he guarded the best or second best perimeter player on the other team. This analysis was nit-picking (he gambled a bit too much is the worst thing you could say yet he was the only player for years to get 200+ steals and 100+ blocks in a season, which he did multiple times) and Ben truly downplayed his impact on the defensive side. Didnt mention his DPOY year, didnt mention advanced stats had him as the most impactful defender in those finals against the Lakers, and doesn't mention he made the all-defensive team 9-10 times. THAT is true greatness on the defensive side.
I don’t know if this was mentioned in some aspect or another, but Jordan typically didn’t miss “looks” or open players. Throughout his career, especially in this season & the following seasons, he used various tactics to invoke the Jordan mentality out of his teammates. He said that he would get a look from teammates or grumbling, but eventually they would get so competitive that they would take it to the next level - then he had confidence to feed them. Also, Jordan struck fear into his opponents by not passing the ball or, not giving up the shot, rather, even when doubled or triple teamed. He knew and wanted to demonstrate that he was unstoppable and of that he wouldn’t quit. Ultimately, he played with players that complimented his game. There’s no comparison to MJ, none.
Great vid as always Ben! MJ's hangtime, first step, hands, and fluid body control was like watching a dude who was half-man/half-panther play basketball. Phenomenal finisher, dead-on mid-range game, underrated passer, All-league defender, and had an often overlooked off-ball game which made him scalable despite being a high volume scorer. I agree mostly with this video...with mild exceptions for the 3 pt shot and defense assessment. I do believe MJ is limited as a 3 pt shooter (he would never be elite like Curry, Nash or Bird...even with higher priority and practice). But MJ with more practice would become a better 3 pt shooter and he generally shot at higher 3PT % with higher volume in his '90 and '93 season with the original 3 pt line. I believe his shooting style at the apex of his jump would have limited effects on 3 PT shots at the corners. It would be the straight on 3 pt shots that he may be less consistent without changing his shooting stroke. But at the end of the day, MJ's offense would probably be most optimal at about five 3FGA's per game and shooting 37% from three is reasonable if he displays good shot selection. And a young MJ used to gamble alot more when he was revved up on defense. As the championship years progressed, Jordan took less gambles to conserve his energy for offense and concentrated more on locking up his guy. I remember when a big man received a pass on a pick and roll, MJ was great at swiping the ball at the last second to prevent an easy dunk or layup with his timing and quick hands. And those plays can be demoralizing when the Bulls' pressure defense was making it difficult for the opposing team to get a clean shot.
I completely respect your comment and you brought up great points. Imo I think Mj would’ve hit 38% to 39% on 3pters for career with original line if he played in this era, he was a pure shooter after all but Bird was more of a purer shooter, so I can see why you would have him at 37% in the 90’s right below Bird if Mj took more 3s. So I totally respect your take. Well said bro.
MJ playmaking is truly underrated considering he never played with another elite offensive talent. Pippen was very good offensively but not elite. All the playmakers ahead of Jordan played with elite offensive talent. Pippen in his prime after Jordans 1st retirement avg 22ppg as the bulls 1st option.. which was most in his career. Imagine Jordans playmaking if he had more options like an elite front court player.
I like this video, as it's an objective analysis of MJ. I have a complaint, however, when you said he's not an all time great wing defender. You don't get DPOY, 9x defensive first team, and being #3 in steals and #4 in steals per game without being all-time great. Remember, he "hit pay dirt more often than he did not."
Awards from the league/media usually consist of Defensive Stats (Blocks/Steals/etc). Thinking Basketball is measuring overall Defensive Impact which is reduced when you get burned on defensive gambles. What's amazing is despite Jordan's many burns, he had even more successes which makes him incredibly good! He leans more towards a "moderate risk high reward" type of defender.
@@venturer577 I understand. And I respect what Thinking Basketball said in terms of gambling. He did gamble a lot. Which also means he did get burned sometimes. But his stats reaching levels hardly anyone, let alone a guard reached shows he was WAY MORE successful than not. Not just sometimes. It's like a person averaging a $500,000 salary just by playing the lottery. Did they get burned a bit? Probably so. But they're still an all time great lottery player because of the massive success they garnered. Same with Jordan. For him to get that high in steals and blocks, win DPOY and defensive teams, and be so high in box +- with 6 rings, he's an all time great defender.
If he didn’t gamble, he will never be 3 times steal leader,also the word gamble makes it look bad,how about “anticipation “ if he had used that for another player ,you all would have been screaming “high basketball iq. Just saying
@@DanielZ534 most highlights, no matter the sport, tend to only focus on the positive. I was thinking the same of D Rose's crazy lay-ups recently. You never see a missed lay-up of his pre-injury days 🤷🏽♂️
@@MasterAppels same with Kyrie dude makes impossible layups and looks like he never misses then you watch the whole game and scratch your head a little
Man this video was fun to watch and thank you for making it! The nostalgia around MJ is so much that people think he really had no weaknesses and many big youtube videos say that exactly. Its enjoyable to watch an objective breakdown on his incredible strengths as well as his weaknesses of gambling on both sides of the ball.
THis is probably the first video I've seen of someone discussing and showing his real play rather than just talking about awards and intangibles, looking at you ESPN
@@t-god2439 oh I know, I’ve seen his other videos, but the difference is that it feels to me like other players have their performance and gameplay assessed, whereas with Jordan it seems like it’s just intangibles and numbers
Great video, great series! I love that the videos are not simply highlighting but actually explaining why it IS a highlight. Showing the details that are easy to miss at times and giving context!
The "ooos" and aaahs" are endless watching MJ and Kobe at work. I was young for Mike's prime but I remember being fascinated at his finesse in movement. That play at 17:05 is a great example. Dude was a freak athletically, combined with insane skill and top notch competitive edge. A joy to watch. Then Kobe came around and brought that same kind of package but in his own way. These two are so special and I'm glad to see this kind of analysis on them. You're the goat
I like how you bring the flow into the history of the game. Thank you for keeping the team in the history of peak stars and their shining careers. I like the kaleidoscope perspective on so many stars.
I think this undervalues Jordan's defense by a lot. Being aggressive in defense is not only about getting the steal, but also about threatening the steal. When you threaten the steal, your opponent might hesitate, and make a suboptimal play. How is that counted in the stats? (Hint: it is not counted at all, except in +/- stats, which instead are too inclusive to talk about a single part of a single part of someone's impact) Too much statistics, not enough watching of whole games for pure game impact. Still a well researched, and well made video.
This was your most critical video....he was one of the best defenders to ever play and a greater passer than you gave him credit for. Great series but it didn't do him justice at all. Your videos are amazing btw.
Man, can't wait for more of these. I never saw Jordan play but seeing these types of videos on guys I did see play so I can compare them will be great. Thank you again for this series
This is why I hate analysts sometimes....so much opinion imported under the guise of analysis. In an attempt to be balanced you deny the obvious... that Jordan was one of the greatest perimeter defenders of all times. His help defense was highly disruptive his on ball defense was elite. How are using his guarding Magic as a case study when making him the scorer is the best option of the two terrible options. Magic could not be stopped.
@@martelljhixson He's also a record 9 time all defensive first team member. The fist player to record 200 steals and 100 blocks in a season. The most blocked shots in a season by a guard. Led the league in steals 3 times. Which is even more impressive considering Jordan led the league in scoring a record 10 times.
@@martelljhixson You should read my new website Media Madness. It has a sports section that talks about basketball players and gives a detailed analysis
Me too! But they take forever. I'm hoping to make a follow-up series on the players who didn't get a profile in this one...skipping certain players is painful! lol
@@ThinkingBasketball understandable, greatest peaks is reserved for the very best!! Im excited about the follow up series, forgotten or hidden stars would be awesome, Berry, Dantley, English, Gervin all players I know were great, no idea why they were and would love to learn.
@@ThinkingBasketball If/when you skip over Kobe, the knives will be out in the comments section. Of course, any interaction is good interaction according to youtube ;)
The amount of people that are surprised by the content in this video regarding Jordan, honestly shows they haven't watched him or haven't analyzed his game at all
You have to realize that there are a lot of young kids on the internet. Some of them are not even pre-teens lol. So they def didn't know much about Jordan apart from the hyperbolic GOAT debate and maybe the Last Dance docuseries.
Or maybe because when people explain how good players are like Kobe and MJ, they just say "clutch" or "big-time scorers". It's very limited of what they really are. People in general just rely on eye-test to analyze someone, and mostly the standout plays overshadow how they excel in other ways. By watching this video, you get the benefit of focusing on one play on how they do other things, which you only can do because someone is explaining it for you.
depends on what you mean. was he the three point sniper Curry is? no. but since his era focused on the mid-range, with is patented fadeaway being unstoppable and historically deadly you could argue he is just as good of a shooter but on different shots. with regard to the 40 inch vertical, the league wished jordan only had a 40 inch vert. lol.
What isn't taken into account is MJ playing every play at the highest level. He never took defense off nor did he slow up the offense. No one has/had the heart and the motor of MJ. His intensity and determination was unbeatable. No one was better at being prepared for anything on the court.
Imagine what Jordan would do in such an open league like today? Even the forwards and Centers don't stay in the paint. Part of it is the rule changes. No illegal defense, plus the defensive three second rule, but Jordan would have so much more freedom after beating his man.
@@nostalgicbliss5547 Little kids don't like to hear it, but todays generation of superstars are a bit overrated. All they have to do is beat their man and they get a highlight dunk.
@@nostalgicbliss5547 This is why I laugh when I hear people say "Jordan had Dennis Rodman" as a means to discredit him. Rodman couldn't average 10 PPG in an empty gym and had no jumpshot to speak of. In other words, you couldn't really space the floor with Rodman on the court (highly problematic when such a player is averaging 35-40 MPG), which means more defensive attention on Jordan. If anything, having Rodman wad as much a detriment as it was a benefit. If you replace Rodman with any above average PF of that era, they still win 3 more rings.
Jordan plays that 2K MyCareer defense where he wants to be involved in every defensive possession even in cases he doesn't need or maybe even shouldn't be. Sometimes overreacting is always better than the typical star player who doesn't put enough effort.
I think his defensive play style can be very valuable when he has the right players around him. In the late 90s with guys like Pippen, Harper, and Rodman around him, it allowed the Bulls to cover for him and rotate if he missed on his gambles. The 80s Bulls weren't as good defensively, and I think that's largely due to having poor defenders around him
@@nolanrussell6326 I mean, Bulls defense was good in those years so it wasn't hurting the team too much. Just like Ben said, it gave some free points sometimes.
A ton of people asking about the years ('89-91) -- it was actually really clear cut to me.
First step and explosiveness start to wane a little by '91, along with his motor. Since so much of his game is based off that, he couldn't quite generate as many advantages by '93 on offense (can see this in dip in free throw rate), and the slight reduction in motor made him a little less active on defense (where his playmaking is key). Additionally his box based stats and impact stats both peak in this period ('89-91), along with his on/off stats we tracked (+/- is less impressive in the '92 postseason).
1988 is a bit different, because his athleticism/motor were still incredible so he peaks on defense, but his passing and shot selection weren''t as polished as the ensuing seasons.
Jordan the goat lebum 3-6
I would go 87-93.
@@moumenhassan8478 pity we get so many comments like these on such a thoughtful video
@@moumenhassan8478 thinking basketball has lebron over jordan tho
@@clipperssuck2450 only because of his overrated longevity and that was back in 2017 before many advanced stats were constructed 🤡 and the old bpm was still present before it accounted for efficiency
If MJ saw this critique of his defense he’d take it personally
Personally, I think Ben undersells him a bit.
@@kingcam0775 relative to his "true" skill i would agree. relative to the media hero worship he gets absolutely
@@kingcam0775 he's being nit-picky, which is what happens when you evaluate the greatest peaks in NBA history.
@@kingcam0775 well go in-depth, if you feel that way you should tell us what ben might've missed
@@samhartje723 I'm fine with him being nitpicky and I adore the series. I just think he undersold the value of Jordan's high risk defense, especially next to Scottie's defense and the chaotic synergy it created on the court. I don't quite understand his argument for Jordan being only a really good wing defender, as opposed to a great one. To me, the errors Jordan frequently made are the cost of the high level defense, much like turnovers are natural for high level passers.
Ben, you're a blessing.
Finally someone taking this conversation leaving out the dogma of MJ being the perfect player. For people like me that came too late to actually see him play on a day to day basis, this is the first time I have an objective and analytic view on this incredible player who is often buried under the narrative he holds.
You have all of my gratitude.
The is one of my primary goals with the series, so I love hearing this kind of response. Thanks!
What happens on the court is what it's all about.
My friend, you should branch out your basketball content! Ben is great but there are other great analysts as well and it makes me sad that this is your only source for intelligent commentary!
@@nathanielkang2397 you can’t just say this without giving any recommendations lol
@@nathanielkang2397 that's not an accurate assumption, no need to be sad my friend
Shocking to hear that Jordan gambled too much
UNDER RATED
Lmaoooo 🤣🤣
lol nice
Good one😂
And, he won 6 of 6 finals and never went to a 7 game in a final. He knew when to hold them and when to fold em. Coach Phil drew up some of that back side pressure due to catching tendencies seen on film from opponents. The bull defense created over play causing havoc and scrambling switches to compensate and cover the other team. If he lost on a gamble, he would say my bad and be good to make it up on offense 😏.
This series is better than anything ESPN has ever produced.
Come on now
not better than baby Stephen a Smith
You’ve never watch a 30 for 30 then
As far as actual analysis of players it’s way up there.
FACTS🏀🏀🏀🏀
MJ's gotta be the most graceful basketball player ever. Just pure poetry in motion on the court.
Hakeem
Kobe was that and more refined
Idk mannn kyrie pretty graceful. But I agree
@@YunisRajab nah he did model his game from mj though but mj has been more graceful
MJ was the most aesthetically satisfying player to watch in my book. My God, everything he did looked good. I grew up idolizing him.
13:50
Damn, MJ's playmaking really stacks up nicely compared to some of the great passers ever. It's because his creation isn't limited to simply racking up assists - his mere presence on the floor makes life SO much easier for his teammates offensively.
Also, this video made me realise that I've been misunderstanding some aspects of his greatness. He has such a monstrously high peak not because his defense was necessarily as impactful as his offense, but because his offensive peak is so damn high (with his unparalled scoring and vastly underrated playmaking) that his defense being simply really good is enough to push his OVERALL impact to near-untouched levels.
Fantastic work by Ben, this series is amazing.
Well said -- he was a tornado out there.
Physically, he was just different! Interesting to note that his peak may have been at its highest when his physical “freakishness” was.
He was a more well rounded offensive player in the mid 90s but in the late 80s he was simply too quick and jumped too high.
@@JoshOlawale Jordan really has 2 stretch of greatness, physical greatness 86-88 and skill greatness 91-93. Ben chose the in between, to talk about both sides. His peak physical is the most dominant in nba history beside Wilt and Shaq, who had way more obvious physical dominance but lacked jordan' skillset.
I think "being good enough" undersells him, a lot
Jordan was the DPOY in 88
Hakeem and Dennis Rodman were in the NBA at that time...
🙂
@@willhooke I meeeean, voters back then lacked the info we have now. To say that Jordan had the defensive impact that bigs had in such a paint driven league is nonsense.
I grew up in Chicago, born in 77’. I was just starting to follow sports closely when MJ joined the Bulls. I didn’t understand as a 10 year old kid, how good he was. To me, he was the best player on the Bulls by a lot, and I knew he was one of the better players in the league. It didn’t dawn on me that he was a sports icon, until we were on vacation in Florida, and a shopping mall shoe store was FILLED with Michael Jordan shoes, jerseys, gigantic murals.......it was a Foot Locker, but it might as well have been a Michael Jordan/Nike store......because thats all they seemed to advertise. Sure, me and all my friends had his shoes.....but we lived in Chicago. I figured every city had their star player and everyone bought their shoe. By the time the Bulls started winning titles, I knew that not only was he the best, but he was the most recognizable person on the planet.
It wasn’t just that he won and filled the stat sheet. It was the way he moved. I could see a shadow of Michael Jordan moving with the ball, and I could tell it was him. His moves weren’t just show-boating, they had purpose.
A big man dominated league was changing. For the first time it didn’t matter how many 7 footers were guarding the rim. MJ would just go around them, or over them. His athleticism was so off the charts, it really didn’t matter what size he was.
And the defense....my god, he put the same maximum effort into defending every time. He frustrated opponents, constantly getting int he way, closing passing lanes, and was constantly swiping at the ball.
Recency bias is a thing. I know that its hard to imagine somebody better than LBJ when you never watched a prime MJ play live. Lebron is a great player. No question. Michael Jordan though, its hard for me to imagine another athlete being so far ahead of ALL of his peers, at any time in history.
“When the best player in the world, is also the hardest working player on your team, that pretty much sets the tone.”
~ Steve Kerr
i say Jordan in his prime, I saw Lebron,Lebron can control the game,Micheal can take over a game.You saw Lebron play Jordan many times but Lebron was called Magic Johnson back in the day,the difference is that Lebron is an athletic version of Magic
MJ would kill in todays league in his prime
Beautifully written and explained. Kudos to you, my man.
Dude, when we visit South Africa and Namibia in 1994, Michael Jordan's posters where all hanging and posted around in Johannesburg and Windhoek. And basketball was not even the most popular sports in that country, it's football and cricket.
@@CitsVariants I don’t think so. He would have to adjust to the new 3 point era first. He would also have have to adjust to more versatile defenders like mikail bridges, Tobias Harris, and Giannis Antetokounmpo.
Jordan's rebounding is so underrated. He's a guard rebounding at a high level in a league dominated by big men And where everyone crowded the paint
Exactly people always overlook that he was averaging 5-6+ rebounds in a era dominated by big men and a congested paint because PF and C didn’t leave the paint like today’s game with stretch bigs great analysis brother I thought I was the only one who thought that
Offensive Rebounds:
*Michael Jordan= 1.6*
*Lebron James= 1.2*
@@allanhouston6759 no one even mentioned lebron. get out of here goofy
@@allanhouston6759 nobody ever likes pointing that out cause it kinda exposes lebron's cherrypick rebounding a la westbrook
Yea he would def average close to 10 rebs in this era. And he wouldn't need to STAT hunt for it like Luka and Westbrook.
What's not discussed enough is how valuable MJ's fantastic off ball ability was, and how it allowed Pippen to be the great playmaker that he was by allowing him to have the ball to make plays with. Had MJ just played the way he did in '88-'89 when he averaged 32.5/8/8, which was similar to how Lebron and Westbrook play being ball dominant and running pick and rolls or Iso drive and kick all the time, it's reasonable to think he would've continued to improve along those lines and averaged lines like 37/10/10, but that kind of ball dominance would prevent players like Pippen from utilizing their playmaking abilities. Hence, Jordan made Pippen better by being willing to play off ball. As Jordan said in The Last Dance, he initially did not like Phil Jackson taking over, because Doug Collins had put the ball in his hands all the time, whereas Phil wanted to take the ball out of his hands more and utilize his off ball abilities so that players like Pippen and BJ could use their playmaking abilities as well.
Exactly, goes to show that the numbers behind stats have important context to them. It's not always as simple as...this number is this, so therefore this player is inferior or superior at doing this for example.
Excellent point about MJ playing off ball and in the Triangle offence. MJ’s numbers would’ve been even better if he was more ball dominant...though he probably wouldn’t have won as many titles. Plus I wholeheartedly believe MJ shaped Pippen into the HoFer he became ~ imagine having to play against an alpha male like MJ during every Bulls practice?!
hi the NBA truth
imagine Jordan playing the point guard like Lebron or Harden nowadays in this open space era. he played some point in 1988 and he average 32.5/8/8 for the season.
Think it goes to show that no matter how good your #1 guy is, there's such thing as going to him too much. Good teams don't let their talent go to waste. Letting good players stand around while the best player does all the scoring and creating is not a great way to get the most out of your team.
Without a doubt Jordan was the most fluid player. Just the way he moved there was a style to it. Behind him to me is bird. They're both play their own pace but Jordan was just so acrobatic
From the games I've seen from MJ he doesn't seem to be that different from todays guards though. People like Murray, Kyrie, Dame, Morant all move this fluid. What let's MJ stand out is his vertical jump and hang time, but that's it ^^'
@@okdre9276 bro, when you watch Jordan take it to the hole Even looks different. there's a clear difference between the grace that Jordan had versus players today even Kobe. Jordan just had more style
The only player I can think of who may have had even higher levels of crazy “body control” was a pre-injury Derrick Rose.
@@okdre9276 Well, I got news for ya... you can't coach vertical jump and hang time. That's why he's often considered the GOAT.
@@okdre9276 nigga said murray lmao
This was the quickest 24 minutes of my life
Didn’t realize that was 24 mins until you posted this
Should have been 23
@@davidfebreeze428
It is
23 and1
24:21 Tribute to MJ Jersey Number
24 + 21 = 45
(24 + 21) ÷ 2 = 23 (rounded up)
@@Po-ge1wj oh wow!
Amazing spotting!
Jordan's off-ball movement is severely overlooked!
Agreed. His ability to move off-ball was something none of the heir apparents were able to emulate. So many offensive players nowadays are very ball dominant, and become dead weight once the ball leaves their hands on offense.
@@spiidey1 exactly, its a fundamental skill that many modern players lack making the game harder for them to play and uglier for us to watch. Most of the players/teams that dominate and win the most, master the fundamentals and play the game the way it was meant to be played
@@spiidey1 Kobe was the closest thing, unsurprisingly
True, and the way that he shot behind the screen so no defenders were as close as when they double or triple teamed him. Plus, this era is soft, look at those Knicks defenders trying to put him on the ground.
He had to adapt to the triangle and he did it to perfection.
Here. We. Go.
First!
Haha. I was waiting and swiping down, swiping down.
Don't tell anyone but I'm not sure mj is the peak in bball.
Can't wait for (hopefully) the kobe and lebron episodes. Fantastic stuff my dude.
@@benw7367 he actually said in his best careers list that mj had the greatest peak
@@abidurrahmannajib4092 I'm ok with that two bens having different opinions. I'm not even sure what I think. I watch stuff like this to help my decision, which I doubt I'll ever be settled on. But to have the marbles to entertain the idea that mj wasn't the goat at everything he touched, well that's due for some appreciation in my book.
@@benw7367 I have a 7 ft wingspan
Jordan is freaken Thanos with all 6 infinity stones:
1) Mind - Killer Mentality
2) Power - Explosive First Step
3) Reality - Control and Mastery of the Ball
4) Soul - Unmatched Artistry
5) Space - Created with his Amazing footwork
6) Time - Hang Time!
Also for mind u can add how he placed fear into his opponents. Like what people from his era said most guys were straight up sacred of mj even some of his teammates. Dude was so scary they started calling him the black Jesus. Man mj was just different. There have been so many great players in history but nobody sacred the living shit out of you like mj did.
You nailed it bro
@@jeffreyatienza635 I think Killer Mentality basically sums that up.
For time he was just as good as he got older
💯
This is a great video. I think one of the biggest thing that is overlooked here is his low turnover rate. For a player with such high usage, his turnover rate is abysmally low against other high volume scorer or creators (look at James Harden, Russell Westbrook, etc). His jump pass turnovers and his lack of anticipation on his passes are rare occasion than norm and did not result in him turning the ball over needlessly. In a way, his offense game is way less chance taking than his defense game, and I am not sure if having Pippen, an all-time great wing defender, in his back pocket, played into some of those gambles and playing the passing lane on the defensive end. He knows very well that more than likely enough those gambles will turn into fastbreak points, and if it doesn't pan out, there is a big chance that Scottie is there to help. IMO that's smart play, and you see it in the +/-. Fantastic video!
For real, on Defense, if I was the coach, I would want Jordan terrorizing offenses like that. It gets into people's heads. Yeah, you need a rotation plan behind that, but I would let Jordan off the leash to demoralize opponents. Nothing feels worse than turnovers that lead to fastbreak points.
Nice point
Among every player who averaged atleast 5 assists per game for their careers, Jordan has the lowest assists/turnovers ratio in NBA history. That aspect of his is certainly underrated.
Endless amounts of energy and extreme levels of competitiveness combined with high levels of skill who was never satisfied so he kept working on his game. MJ and Kobe will always be my favorite to watch.
Facts I wasn't around from the jordan era. But that's definitely what i gather from watching his highlights. Played with a hunger and a passion on both offfense AND defense
heart
And after watching both back-to-back, what I saw is that they were more identical than we thought. Same exact strengths, same weaknesses, Jordan was slightly better on defense because he had a slightly higher motor, but otherwise identical. Also, he doesn’t make it a point to single out and dive deeper into some of the weaknesses he mentioned about Jordan but he does with Kobe.
MJ’s playmaking ability was the most underrated part of his game.
I wouldn’t say his “playmaking” is underrated, but rather simply his “passing” and “vision”. Also I mean when you’re the greatest scorer ever, other aspects of your game are bound to be overlooked.
@@carusohighlightreel4275 yup like lebrons thought of as a passer first but averages what like 27 a game whatever you’re best at stands out
Because he wasnt exactly a great passer he wasn't trash by any means but u wouldn't exactly single out mj for his passing
@@alexescutia4805 LeBron’s is VERY a special case. Everyone understands how great LeBron is at many aspects of game. But yeah, with almost every player, you’re best aspect stands out the most. Some examples are, Curry’s shooting, Russell’s defense, etc.
Caruso Highlight Reel yeah but the thing is that people don’t only talk about MJ’s scoring. They mention his defense but NEVER bring up his playmaking ability.
Great to see someone finally give him his props in playmaking. Sometimes I watch clips or segments of games and I'm like, "Man he is actually a really good passer". Even his rookie year he'd still make the right passing play a lot of times, probably due to his UNC coaching. Though some of his missed reads even on this video can be infuriating.
He had a nasty case of hero-balliness that's for sure. BUt overall he was a noteworthy passer.
@@injusticeanywherethreatens4810 It was justified in hisbearly years. The bulls were a legit lottery tean and Jordan was by far their best offensive option. By the time of his titles that was not the case.
Finally, a discussion about MJ's greatness without mentioning "Killer Mentality", "Clutch Genes", "Greatest Lockdown Defender of All Time", or any other subjective hyperboles. Amazing work, good people of Thinking Basketball. It helps a lot of people like me, who only have highlight reels and The Last Dance to learn about MJ. Especially, putting his statistical impact at his peak against other greats at theirs, really helps to contextualize how much he actually impacted the game.
Yeah, I totally agree. Years ago I complained that fans fawned over Michael too much, and had the goat conversation locked up for arbitrary reasons. Now I think the Lebron brigade often dismisses his achievements too easily with equally subjective reasoning.
This is probably the best objective analysis I've seen.
@@paksta it's probably an age thing. I think I'm a part of the LeBron brigade too, but as I grow older, I'm starting to realize (thanks to content like this and 'Making the Case' series) that the GOAT title probably can never be assigned to anyone. We will all have our favourite player at the end of the day and want that player to be recognized as the GOAT. But, it's really good enough that they are our personal favourites, that their game impacted us deeply enough that we even care about the GOAT conversation.
@@rionshikder813 Wow, that's very insightful. I hate unresolved debates, but I'd be happy to settle on that. Originally, I thought people of my age were too dismissive of guys like Kareem, Wilt, Magic and Bird, and didn't want to engage in s goat debate prior to 2012 at least. But it probably just illustrates your point best of all.
@William Hassell Kobe and Jordan cant really be compared either. Different eras. Kobe's last all star caliber year was in 2013. That's nearly 30 years from Jordan's first. Different pacing, different defensive attention, different rules, different spacing, and different coaching. Besides the obvious similar moves and mannerism, comparing them past that point is pretty unfair to either side.
Tons of full old games and even series are available on the youtube for free. You should delve into that, it's especially fun watching NBA basketball without having to watch hours of commercials. 1992 Finals is especially entertaining iirc, and of course Magic and Bird's 80s Finals duels.
I watched his career from McDonald's All-American to final retirement, and it's really easy to forget that he's always been a disciple of Dean Smith's system, and Phil only gave him that kind of structure to better impact NBA games by spreading the floor to force long-range help creating an easy pass that resulted in wide open looks for a teammate. Hands down the best overall player I've ever seen or gotten torched by(yes, he destroyed me as a young'n during VCU summer league with Oakley the summer after the broken foot & my game got way better like he said it would).
You got torched by MJ? Thats pretty dope 💯
Analytics can advance forever, but there really is no need for numbers or data to know that MJ was to basketball what Shakespeare was to writing. A beautiful piece of writing can't be described; it can only be experienced. Same with MJ. Those of us lucky enough to watch him glide, juke, dip, and fly know that he is the greatest in the same way that we know that the sun is bright. We bathed in it. We felt it. We marveled at what he could do, in every facet of the game. There was no one who struck fear into his opponents like Mike. The only sadness of it is that it is done, and I can't imagine anyone ever being as good.
and they say lebron fans glaze
It's just that he was so fluid, so fundamentally sound, AND that he was able to go and SCORE ALL THE POINTS, defend like a demon, DUNK, Facilitate and Pass, EXPLODE on you, it was just immeasurable to go against him...
It's crazy to see the defensive attention he draws in a lot of these clips, it was pretty common for four players to swarm him when he attacked the rim!
Sometimes i really have a hard time watching basketball without spacing, im like use the fkin space why are you all clustered below the rim
@@jijmotorp3079 you have to understand that's the way the game was played like back then, shooting threes wasn't a big part of the game at all
@@clydetheglidetop5sgtop10du7 yea i mean you always love the way you learn the game so i guess i will always love outside shooting.
@@jijmotorp3079 to me modern and 90’s basketball are two almost different sports so when I watch I act as if it’s a different sport and that usually makes the clusterfuck less clusterfuckey
ugod234 yeah.
His gambling on defense had an enormous psychological impact on opponents and that doesn't show in stats!
He also got 8 steals in a half which is an NBA record so his gambles tended to work a lot.
Yes ,it made them LAUGH. This is why before he got Pippen to do the solid defensive work, his teams were 55 games below .500. Then after Pippen left in 1998, Jordan returned and his teams were 16 games below .500.
@@emmanuelenyinwa1443 what? He never missed the playoffs with the bulls. You’re low iq. Also a team needs to go 13-69 to be at least 55 games under 500.
@@Mcrappe Well, the Bulls were 55 games under. 500 from 1985, Jordan's rookie season, to 1987-88, Pippen's rookie season. Jordan was below. 500 EVERY SINGLE season he played without Pippen in his career. Those are facts. Jordan was on the only team to make the playoffs while being TWENTY-TWO games under. 500 in 1986 at 30-52 in 1986.
@@emmanuelenyinwa1443 you do realize that’s 22 and not 32, right? And also, that was the year Jordan broke his foot in game 3 in the season. He only played in 18 games that year and was under a minute restriction for the last 15 games when he came back from injury.
I guess the point is with his Defense that he got the steal on Malone in that 98 Finals to win that game and that series. All the gambling payed off in that moment. In the end, he made the plays to win the chip.
We have to consider coaching into this. Bulls gameplan was agressive on the perimeter cause they lacked 1 on 1 defense inside the paint. Half court press, force turnovers on entry passes and double quickly. Stats dont tell the whole story.
@@lebarbosa9778 True, but Jordan was so well calculated. He made all the right plays during the last few possessions of that game. Utah should have won that, but Jordan just took that game from them. Offensively and defensively. It was a perfect couple mins of basketball for Jordan.
It still destroys me to this day that Utah lost that. MJ is the basketball God. He willed his way to the win. Can't be stopped.
I think that was just jordan style of play (gambling on defense) from the beginning, he averaged 2.4 steals his rookie season
@@reneecastle6746 Yea, Isn’t that what this convo is about, the aggressive gambling Jordan played on defense? He was extremely aggressive to where it payed off a lot, but it also hurt him doing it as it led to easy points sometimes. My point is ALL the gambling payed off (since his rookie year) in the last couple mins of game 6 of the 98 Finals because it was a huge reason they won that championship. I can’t think of a moment where Jordan gambled and it lost him a playoff game. Maybe it happened, but it didn’t lose him a series or a chip that’s for sure. And IF his gambling backfired and they lose game 6 and game 7 of that 98 Finals. Well, then I could buy into the criticism of him “Gambling too much” as the analyst in this video insinuates as a negative. I don’t see it as such because the results are what they are. Jordan is one of the greatest defensive wings partly because of his relentless pressure he put on great offensive players and playing D like a cornerback in passing lanes.
Jordan gambling on defense is what helped him lead the league in steals 3 times and finish close to the top the other years. It's no different than a shot blocker going after most shots...sometimes you get it and sometimes you don't. But the greats get it more times than not.
getting more steals doesnt always mean you are a better defender
@@krlllx I agree...2 examples would be Allen Iverson & Steph Curry. Both guys led the league in steals but weren't necessarily good defenders. With MJ it was different, he was a good man-to-man defender, good in the passing lanes, good help defender and then you include the steals and blocks.
Watching this the first time I thought, "This sounded a bit harsh toward Michael." But my second time through realized that it was a fair critique of his game. The narrator did a fine job poking holes in some of the invincibility in Jordan's defensive game. This series has been outstanding, and I just wanted the creator to know that I greatly appreciate the content he creates. It's unlike anything out there.
MJ is the only guard that was an A+ athlete with an A+ skill set.
This makes zero sense..... Shooting Guards ARE TRADITIONALLY THE MOST ATHLETIC AND SKILLED PLAYERS ON THE COURT
@@martinmackye9865 Any other shooting guards who were A+ at both like Jordan was?
@@GlassOnion23 d rose....kobe...... prime vince.....A.I......prime drexler.....
@@martinmackye9865 You have to be kidding me dude. None of those were transcendent both athletically and skill wise. It's either one or the other where the other is "only" great but never once-in-a-generation material. You can make the argument that Jordan is, if not the best (I think he is at both), at least top 3 most skilled and athletic perimeter player in the history of the league. Kobe was the closest to reach this most elite level, but even in his prime he wasn't a once-in-a-generation athlete.
@@GlassOnion23 that's not the argument..... reading comprehension dude....please... Nevermind....
Think what you want. I'm too tired and you're too stupid
MJ shooting percentage was almost 50% on double and triple teams. When he was a point guard he averaged triple double. Still the goat.
Just like Bill Russell still the goat
other players - the stats show they are not that good
jordan - the goat shows that the stats are not that accurate
@@champspec Well Chamberlain was absolutely dominated by Bill Russell so it is very hard to view WC as the Goat.. not only that but he pulled the 1st super big 3 in history going to LA because he couldn t beat BR and still, with BR retired, he could not even beat those NYK and the only Ring he won in LA was due to Reeds injury... Wilt s numbers were due to Pace, as his team that year played at a 130 Pace, 30 more possessions than today plus he played 48min... Giannis acctually destroyed Wilt s numbers a couple years ago if you do the proper conversions of Pace and min played...
@@2quick4u84 came here to say the same. Adjusted for pace Wilt’s 50ppg year is more like 32ppg in 2022
@@2quick4u84 WIlt averaged 40ppg against Russell. Wilt dominated the matchup not the other way around. stop with that foolish narrative. It was the 4 other HOF players russell had with him that doomed Wilt.
Even with MJ’s overly aggressive defense, his motor being inhuman I figure it’s not that big of a deal. Considering how he was on offense that’s truly a testament to his greatness.
The most beautiful basketball player of all time. He moved so well and this quality made the games more enjoyable to watch. I don't know the comparable style but he was absolutely dancing on the basketball court. And this is an absolute quality-- you don't have to compare MJ with other stars to identify the grace he had, but if you compare it you'd realise Jordan is just unique.
Damn this Michael Jordan guy could really jump
he should try some pro basketball, he could be good if he tried
Hes actually gay
48 inch vertical .....highest ever in the nba's history supposedly
@@Quack_attack_ That would mean his full head would be above the rim. He jumps way higher than Gerald Green or James White. That's for sure. He is the greatest!!
@@Quack_attack_ allegedly Wilt Chamberlain ado had one but we don’t have much evidence of this
This is the golden era of Thinking Basketball videos.
This series might just end up being Ben's most viewed vids of all time 👀👀👀
Michael Jackson is missing
Great comment!
....and then blows away our expectations by dropping flaming hot vids in the next decades or so...
I feel like we should let Ben do whatever he wants when he wants. It is what it is.
Watching Jordan work in the post was a thing of beauty. The footwork, the fakes, the fadeaway, all of it was watching a master at work. That jumper was deadly too. Can you do an analysis of Scottie Pippen next?
19:00 "Jordan gambled... and then gambled... and then gambled..."
- I see what you did there Ben XD
It took me a second, then NOOOOOOOOO!
I think your analysis on Jordan's weakness being 3's is wrong. His percentages are highly skewed because of the extremely low number of 3's he took per game. This means that any last second heaves or low percentage late clock bailouts he would take would disproportionally affect his percentage. You said he shot worse when they changed the line, but he also just shot less. And if you look at his career there were 4 seasons where he took 3 or more 3's per game and in those seasons he shot 38% ,35%, 43%, and 37%. (I'm ignoring his return season where he shot 50% in 17 games). In no other season did he average more than 1.5 3's per game. And when you are at that low a number just 10-20 of those last second heaves in an 82 game season can drastically lower your percentage. For example in the 91 season if he takes just 15 of those in the season his percentage falls from 38% to 31%. At best you could criticize him for not taking 3's and spreading the floor more, but when he's so hyper efficient everywhere else I don't know why you would ever want him to.
Another thing to consider is what was the league's avg 3 pt shooting percentage during those years because everyone is not considering the 3 as a big factor to offense unlike today. You'll probably be surprised that he's shooting on par with the league avg which was 33%, meaning, even the so called weakness by many of his critics was not considered as a weakness but the average for the whole NBA during the time he played. 🤯
GOAT things.
@@One.Zero.One101 I don't know how to explain this to you. That is the point. A player is not defined by their peak.
The point of the series is not to find out who had the best career.
It is not to find the best player.
It is to find which three year stretch of basketball was played at the highest level.
That's like going to a comedy show and getting miffed that everyone's laughing.
To be fair...Magic was the size of a PF and MJ was too small to handle him in the post.
And his gambling on defense gave away more open mid-range shots than 3's against typical wings during his era. Overall, his gambling yielded a net positive on defense in the scheme of things, and also lead to momentum shifting plays in critical points of the game.
MJ usually left his man to sneak on big men postups and help on elite penetrators. Switching and not missing on rotations is much more critical today due to the rules, style of play and high volume of corner threes.
Also, I remember as MJ got older, he would gamble less on defense to conserve his energy. And he became more shrewd in choosing when to gamble during a game.
All in all, MJ's defense was airtight in crunch time.
4:35 That was probably the most impressive part of the video. As he's shooting, he brings the ball low to dodge the block from Isiah, and yet still manages to make it over the defender in front (Salley?). Just absurd.
Jordan’s peak 3pt shooting year in the regular season was 1990 he took 3.0 3PA per game while shooting 37.6%. He shot even higher 3pt percentages in the playoffs from 90-93,which averaged out to around 36%.This was before they shortened the 3pt line.Basketball Analysts like to suggest Jordan was a bad shooter from that range, when that’s simply not the case.
He took a good amount of heaves and really tough end of shot clock threes too
@@fatkatdaboss1505 Yeah, similar to Luka Doncic, Jordan took unnecessary 3's, and that inflates his misses and plummets his actual 3 point shooting percentage. For Jordan to hit 36-37% of his 3's, with as many poor shoots as he took totally suggest he was even greater.
@@fatkatdaboss1505 that was only 1season tho.
@@ballersclub5826 3 seasons from 90-93
@@blackimage2491 nope. After that season he went back to shooting 31% on 1shot and then 27% on 1.3shots.
What made Jordan great was his ability to turn his real or perceived weaknesses into strengths through a maniacal work ethic combined with incredible natural gifts. If Jordan was coming into the NBA today, scouts would question his 3pt shooting, instead of jump shooting as they did in the 80's. If that were the case, just as Jordan went from having a "weak" jump shot to the greatest midrange shooter ever, he would probably have been able to do the same from the 3pt line.
In short, he takes things personal and works like mad to address whatever that may be.
glaze
MJ avg 11.4 apg in 91 finals, Magic 12.4, MJ tried his darndest to out pass the goat of assists. the goat was uncanny.
Jordan is the GOAT because he would always lazer focus onto what people though was a weakness of his and then he would do that "weakness" better than almost anyone in this history of the league.
MJ is not the GOAT....there is no GOAT
Jordan avg 31 n 11🤣
@@baucedixon8067 don't bother, the conversation will last forever, it seems to me that there's an innate human tendency to fanboy over individuals and not using our brain properly 🤦
@@JulioLeonFandinho not using our brain properly? If we do (use our brains properly) would "we" idolize MJ so much?
A whole lot of his pros and cons discussed in the video were shaped by the pressure and burden of responsibility he put on himself to do everything and single handedly carry the team on his back to victory. Thus, the ball hogging, the 1 v 5 attack, the roaming on defense, etc. he simply didn't have confidence in his teammates, such that he felt he had a better chance scoring over 5 opponents than his teammate did on an open jumper. Or that his team mate wasn't going to stop the opponent with the ball so he had to roam over to defend him too. Eventually, Phil, Pippen and the Triangle Offense fixed all that.
This might be true, but you can't analyse a player for what he could have done. Only on what is done. And his peak impact season was before the 3-peat
I think Jordan’s off ball game is so underrated. As much as he carried a lot of those Bulls teams offensively, he held the ball way less time than people think. That let Scottie, another very good scorer and great facilitator, hold onto the ball more. Of course, Jordan could cook better than anyone in isolation, but he didn’t have to, and didn’t as much, as most people think
glaze
It's always a head scratcher to me when people say he was a mediocre ball handler. The guy was an amazing ball hander. People like to say Kobe was a better ball handler but I disagree, Kobe seemed like a more flashy ball handler but would turn it over quite a bit actually. I can't tell you how many times I seen him bounce the ball off his own foot out of bounds. Just because a dude doesn't do a dribbling exhibition before every game a la Steph Curry doesn't mean he wasn't a great ball handler. Jordan had the cross over, around the back, spin, between the legs, in and out, etc. I always thought he was one of the best ball handlers because he rarely turned the ball over and instead of all the flashiness it was based more around necessity, which I appreciate.
There was just something special watching MJ play that I don't get with any other player currently playing.
also physical basketball is sometimes so much better to watch than shooting 40 3s a game. Though bad games in the 90s were really bad, like it was so bad you would want to change the rules to help one of the team.
@@jijmotorp3079 there’s a reason “physical basketball” was tape delayed in the 80s & early 90s......it was bad
@@deepmindofx8148 Lol bullshit. That had nothing to do with physical basketball being bad
And following his peak, he won two 3-peats with 6/6 in finals, 4 more MVPs, 6 final MVPs. Not really long fall from his peak. MJ at 1993 finals versus Phoenix is the greatest player to ever walk the Earth, with second place to Hakeem in 1995 Western finals.
@German-English I think that Olajuwon gets a decent amount of cred these days, with the analysis videos, but it seems as though he kind of flew under the radar for a number of years in his prime.
@German-English well yeah, Hakeem was a 7 footer. Even though Jordan was a better player hakeem’s size helped negate Jordan’s ability to elevate over defenders
Agreed, they don't understand how amazing this man was.
what about bron 2016 finals. or bron 2018 playoff. or shaq 2000's
I think 09 D Wade is just as good as anybody if not better
When Mike was in his prime, he was so good that he made people fans who were on opposing teams. He was so good, he basically could've scored 50 points a game. So good that ALL his games we prime time games in the 90s. He was so good, it was like he had a cheat code with the devil that nobody else had. That is saying alot. He created shots, offensive angles, tricks and court vision that nobody ever saw at that point.
I remember hearing other teams fans cheering for him when he'd do something special. U just couldn't deny u were witnessing something pretty incredible!
17:58 Hey Ben, the Y button is for blocks. It's X for steals man.
Haha was it like that back in the day? I can't remember now -- I'd need to hold an old controller.
Unless he plays on the switch.
@@ThinkingBasketball I came to the comment section exactly because of that lol
I don't think there's a steal button that is the Y button in any traditional controler, at least for the past 20 years (Nintendo Switch is the exception). And that's beucase, since it's the button at the top, it's the one that reminds people of reaching your hands high the most.
Sega
His Airness The 🐐.. this series is brilliant work. Also as a Chicago native, the love you showed for Pip is greatly appreciated.
@The Ultimate out of those 3, Kareem is the only one who you could make a case for being over MJ. I'd personally disagree, but I think both are top 3, so you could argue Kareem over MJ. But Wilt and especially Oscar are not close to MJ
The Ultimate assists aren’t the only aspect to playmaking, Jordan was a FAR better playmaker.
@The Ultimate Wilt underperformed in the playoffs, whereas MJ dominated in the playoffs. That's the main thing holding Wilt back from being the GOAT over Jordan.
@The Ultimate I mean he underperformed relative to what he in the regular season. His scoring average always went down in the playoffs, sometimes significantly. He only led the playoffs in scoring once, as opposed to 7 times during the regular season. MJ's averages almost always went up in the playoffs, and he led the playoffs in scoring 10 times just like he did during the regular season.
@The Ultimate always people have excuses. MJ put 63 on the best defense in the league in the playoffs. MJ played against Jordan rules and still put up numbers. Wilt put up numbers against Bill Russell but in the playoffs he couldn't average the same? So he's more like Giannis who always gets stopped by Toronto in the playoffs? No body stopped MJ, and no matter who they put in front of him his averages still went up.
The triangle prioritizes proper spacing then ball movement and he couldn’t be contained with or without the triangle and his basketball fundamentals is what makes him the 🐐 and he didn’t PRACTICE shooting the 3.
"Not an all time defensive wing"? this was a little forced. It was like: lets see the numbers, oh he is top 1/2 ( 21:27 ) , but I am not convinced so Im going to try to find some other numbers ( 22:10 ), oh he is still top 9 with all the centers in front of him.... well Im still going to say that he is not an "All time defensive wing" because I have to criticize something.
This series is great and I learn a lot from players that I didnt study before like Walton, but that was a bit forced.
I hope you make a second part from MJ, and I want to see Barkley, Miller, Ewing etc. Great Job.
Watching Jordan burst inside for layups is the most satisfying thing in basketball.
"MJ did flick many balls here", "And he did strip players sometimes"😂
Poor Kwame
Pause
@@kostaskoukos3932 pfff says you my guy.
Continue..Storys gettin gud
..........
One thing I was really looking to see based on the title was how often Jordan's teammates were able to rebound and get putbacks on his misses with all the attention he drew. These became popularized as "Kobe assists" but as with many things Kobe I'm guessing Jordan was the inspiration and did it better.
Jordan's 3 pointers peaked at 37 % at the regular 3 point distance
yeah they be overhyping him. he was a tall guy who knew how to use his height to his advantage. thats amazing. but not the greatest ever. that is chef curry
@@ast.george3565 Jordan wasn't tall but he was the best ever . Curry is good but clearly no where near the best ever.
@@christiansoldier77 the league wasnt as good when jordan played. between 89 and the 90s they had 6 expansion teams. so it was easier to win. in 98 when jordan won, 5 teams failed to win 20 games. the competition was nowhere near. im grateful he kept the league afloat, but its not even close to be honest. the game is about who can shoot the best in as many scenarios. and that is curry. better free throws, mid range, lay ups, three points. dribbling than jordan. even steve kerr jordans old teammate admitted that he had never seen anyone defended off the ball the way that curry is. literally lebron james and tristan thompson were double teaming him when he didnt have the ball. jordan was defended 1 on 1 by 6 foot kevin johnson the whole series against the suns in 1993, you can look at the video its on youtube. not even close. maybe in your heart, but not reality. and jordan is 6'6 curry is 6'2 and some change. there is a big difference here. even in 96 when jordan won his fourth title the nba had moved the three point line a foot closer to the basket, because the guys were so bad at shooting the scores were very low in a lot of games. when jordan retired the first time in 1994 the bulls only lost 2 more games than they had the year before with him. lets just be honest. scotty pippen was getting double teamed in the post which opened up a lot of oppurtunities for michael. then he had the highest three point percentage shooter of all time when he came back in steve kerr. when curry lost in 2019 to the raptors his teammates shot about 28% on wide open threes. if they had even shot 6% better he would have probably won that year also lol. jordan is nowhere near. his body was just better built for scoring, and he shot a lot more than curry and even more than lebron. im not that impressed to be honest. but still thankful because the league needed him to carry the torch for awhile, because it was that bad in the 90s
@@ast.george3565 They have more expansion teams now you ignoramus so it is more watered down now . Curry is only putting up numbers because they changed the rules to allow more scoring. In the 80s and 90s Curry would only scored about 18 ppg because the play was way more physical. Saying that Jordan only had one man guarding him while pippen was being double teamed is so asinine that I don't even need to say more about that subject SMH
@@christiansoldier77 the league has had 30 teams since the end of the 90s so i dont know what you are saying. the referees dont help curry at all. they admitted to giving michael jordan favoritism because they needed him to preserve the league during those dark years of the 90s when all the 80s legends were retiring. you dont know the game, and the play was only more physical in the 90s because of all of the inexperienced amateur players who got called up to fill out the expansion team rosters, as there was no g league system back then. the g league started in 2001 so of course the players today are much better, because they are groomed in a professional atmosphere within the nba. trust me i have this video i show my jordan fan friends where the great penny hardaway let jordan shoot over him on back to back shots while his arms were pinned to his side... i have to see if there is a way that i can find out if he was in foul trouble or what lol but the fact that they had to move the three point line a foot closer for 3 years in the 90s had nothing to do with roughness. the guys were not as professional, and Jordan even wrote about the unprofessionalism of many of the guys in the league back then in his book "For the Love of the Game" where he called out 90s greats like penny hardaway and grant hill as being stars fading in the wind. i own the book, if you are such a jordan fan you should too.
I just had the greatest peak clicking on this video if you know what I mean
AYO??????
PAUSE BRUH WUT LMAO
And he hearted it. Love this channel.
Ew
😳😳😳
Also to clarify, Pippen was drafted the same year as Grant. All the MJ-haters clearly don’t really know anything about MJ, as they go specifically to Pippen to try and belittle MJs accomplishments, while ignoring Grant. Grant was still on the team when Jordan retired and they added Kukoc as well. BJ Armstrong was coming into his own and both Grant and BJ upped their numbers the next year alongside Pippen’s whopping 1 PPG increase his highest scoring per year in 1994. Armstrong brought way more to the table as a PG than Paxson, who retired along with Jordan. When Grant left the following year, it’s no surprise the Bulls were on the verge of not making the play-offs until Jordan actually comes back and they go from the 8th to 5th seed. Pippen never carried the Bulls.
The amount of thought and work put in by the team to assemble this series is astounding. Keep up the great work.
Only thing I'd note is that you made a point in a previous video about how not all risky assists are the same. Some assists are high reward (leading to extremely high % shots), and low risk (give ample time to get back on defense if turned over). Others are not.
I think it'd be interesting to apply that same lens to the risk-taking we see from Jordan on defense. Good risks leading to easy breakaway points, or give the chance for teammates to rotate if the risk isn't a success. Bad risks, being those more similar to the reaches on Magic that are high risk, low reward (eg those aren't turning into easy transition points).
Thanks for the phenomenal content as always, Ben.
I wouldn’t say those are equal though. A gamble on defense basically leaves the defender in a very vulnerable position and gives the offensive player a very high quality look. A gamble with passing would just lead to a turnover which doesn’t automatically generate a good look in and of itself, as the player then obviously has to get to the other end of the court to attempt to score.
"That Luigi-hangtime..." ❤
Is it factually correct though? Luigi had the jump height, but I thought it was Peach who had the hang time?
such a well placed analogy. as a player of mario 2, you gota love it, and its so fucking accurate.
@@luobomu9747 He's kind of like a mix of Luigi and Peach. Getting up there fast and then staying there for a while Peach style. I find the second 3-peat more impressive because that hang time was gone, destroyed by the baseball training. 87-93 is god mode for a basketball player. Both ends at all times for ridiculous minutes.
I'd imagine the Bulls never having a great shot blocker morphed Jordan's defensive style.
Great insight
There was also a lot of criticism towards Jordan in his early years that he only played one side of the ball, which he undoubtedly took personal.
Crazy how this video tries to knock his defense while also showing that he rated out at the “top of the heap.” I do appreciate that you stated it was hard to evaluate his style of defense. He reminds me of the NBA’s version of Ed Reed. If you combed through Reed’s tape, you’d probably see plenty of swings and misses. But he made plays nobody else could even dream of making and completely shifted a game’s momentum with his knack for making the big play. You might want to grade out the more fundamentally sound guy who’s always in position higher, but you know that guy won’t make the game changing, turn defense into offense type plays of someone like Ed Reed.
But that's kinda the point. You can see the gambles, you can see the steals and block that go the other way for points. People don't remember the failed gambles that give up easy layups.
And it's hard to even notice the points not given up by being in your spot and bringing the opponent shooting percentage down. That might add more to winning a game, making it not close or giving you a cushion, than the highlight reel plays. If you're in the right spot, the opponent will probably pass it away rather than make a bad shot.
Although I will say that there is a moral component to those dagger plays, that can shake the opponent's will. It's just hard to say what value that is. Some might crumble or droop. But how does that affect the play on the court? It's hard to say.
Thinking basketball was instantly my favorite basketball channel when I saw breakdowns of players in 2019. The vids keep getting better and better. Thank you Ben!
Some of your criticisms were a little nit picky. In terms of your overall ranking of Jordan defensively, you opted not to take into account Jordan's usage offensively. For him to have the impact he had defensively while also leading his team averaging 35+ ppg is incredible. I'd be interested to know the defenders you have ranked over Jordan so I could evaluate what their offensive responsibilities were.
Also in reference to Jordan "not seeing certain open teammates", I'm sure he missed open teammates sometimes. But I'm also sure there were times he saw the open teammate and simply said "Nah, I'm shooting it".
All in all though great great video.
I kind of agree, because in case of Allen Iverson, he would have more assist if his teammates can actually convert. The probability of Jordan scoring over a triple team sometimes is better than say passing it to an open Bill Cartwright, then totally missing the shot in point blank range 😅
Because how great of an impact you make on defense doesn't depend on how much you impact your team offensively. Sure, MJ has godlike stamina to be that offensive loaded and still be and all time great perimeter defender, however, if offensive load is taken into consideration on how great a defender was, then "X" would be a greater defender based on an analysis that includes the other side of the floor instead of the one it is suposed to be strictly taken into account. In that case, Jordan is a greater defender than Pippen, Wilt is a greater defender than Russell, Kobe is a greater defender than Payton and so on. I think this analysis was great precisely because it humanizes MJ's stamina and its effects on his defensive impact instead of recognizing the misguiding and mythifying narrative of "he was the best defender in the league while being the best offensive player in the league"
@@rogeliochavez40 No. I get the point that you're trying to make. But no. At the end of the day basketball is a sport that requires players to play both offense and defense. There is a finite amount of energy that a professional athlete can exert. If you have fewer offensive responsibilities you can give more on defense (Ben Wallace, Bruce Bowen, Tony Allen etc) and on the flipside less defensive responsibilities means more you can give offensively (James Harden, Luka Doncic, Iverson etc).
What you're essentially doing is penalizing Jordan for being a more skilled player. You have to give criteria as to why someone like a Tony Allen is a better defender than Jordan. You can't just nitpick certain plays Jordan had lapses due to fatigue and say that someone else is a better defender. Jordan was 1st team defense 9 times. Allen only 3 times. Jordan won DPOY. Allen never did. Jordan had multiple seasons with 200 steals and 100 blocks. Allen never had 50 blocks in any season nor 140 steals. And Jordan did this while averaging 30+ppg. Not to make this about Allen, but point is you have to give criteria why someone is a better defender than Jordan, don't just show me a person who got to use all their energy on defense.
@@rogeliochavez40 For a player to average 30+ a game and still be all-nba defensive level is freaking insane and Jordan did it so many times it's scary. The analysis was good but truly missed the mark on how incredibly difficult it is to impact the game for so long on both sides of the court. It's almost as if the guy was trying hard to find issues and his own statistical analysis put Jordan at historically elite levels on offense and defense, with or without Pippen. It is easy to find examples of bad plays from every player in the league. There is a reason every single all-star in the league called Jordan the GOAT pretty much the entire time he played. Not sure why this is so difficult to understand, no player had as high a ceiling on both sides as Jordan. Period.
I completely agree with your first point - taking into account his offensive load and effectiveness, the fact that he was still a high-motor impact player on defense is a huge plus for his resume.
For your second point though, I would argue that passing up a wide open teammate and forcing his own shot in traffic is something that can be held against him to some extent. Whether he saw the open teammate and chose not to pass or whether he never saw the open teammate at all, the result is the same: passing up a good shot for a worse one.
I get why he did it, probably not trusting his teammates in those early years to convert those open looks. And, of course, he was often bailed out by being so athletic and skilled that he could still make a lot of those tough shots anyway. But even so, we can still say his court vision and/or decision making could have been better at times in those early years. He arguably could have provided even MORE offensive value than he had by passing out of double and triple teams more often - which is crazy considering his offensive peak at that time was probably still the greatest the league has ever seen.
Mike was simply created to play basketball I'm not even a fan of the sport and I love watching his plays.
MJ had an “attack mindset” to his defence that isn’t really possible with today’s NBA rules. It’s a product of his overall “attack mentality” and made possible through the power he had over his coaches ~ unlikely we’ll see this kind of defence for a while. Having watched thousands of MJ footage, MJ’s defence could and did swing games (and even championship games like against Utah). MJ is one of the best perimeter defenders of all time as well as THE best perimeter scorer of all time. His “gravity” and playmaking ability were also elite. I think he’s the GOAT.
I think the opposite is true. In today's NBA Jordan would hit 50 every game because the fouls are for the ball handlers now... You can't hard foul or hand check nobody today
@@LIL-MAN_theOG illegal defense helped MJ too so i think he'd avg 38 pts
@@Rayzajw defensive 3 seconds, isn’t zone defense. Y’all must’ve never watched college, or the Olympics, or high school, because they have zone defense, but they don’t have defensive 3 seconds.
@@kristion9774
They had masked zones in the 90s, but illegal defense was still a thing. The offensive players would all go to the weak side to manipulate the help defense.
@@DemonKing-oi4jd and their defenses against perimeter players were more effective back then, than the banned hand checking era, with freedom of movement, small ball, empty paint with no bugs near it, all 5 positions on the 3 point line with the green light, defensive 3 seconds, I mean “zone” era.
I’ve always felt that the 89-90 version of Mj was him at his peak. Where his elite athletic dominance met his skillful dominance. He was completely unstoppable.
True. Honestly if Pippen had really come into his own that season instead of the next, especially in terms of toughness, the Bulls I think win the title in 89-90 after getting past Detroit.
TBH Jordan's defense to me is still underrated. The amount of shots he altered is on the same level as some of the best defensive big men ever and yet his steal rate is one of the greatest of all time, comparable to the best little guards in the game. He completely changed momentum in games with his defensive pressure, which contributed directly to his great offensive impact. Stats only tell part of the story even though Jordan's are insane. OFFENSE AND DEFENSE GO HAND IN HAND it's not really something you can separate like Ben tried to do in this breakdown, players have to do both in basketball and no one was as good at both as Jordan. You can find a better passer but none of them could defend like Jordan. You could possibly find better defenders career-wise but none of them could ever come close to impacting the game offensively like Jordan. Nothing false about Jordan's defensive prowess, especially considering most of his career he guarded the best or second best perimeter player on the other team. This analysis was nit-picking (he gambled a bit too much is the worst thing you could say yet he was the only player for years to get 200+ steals and 100+ blocks in a season, which he did multiple times) and Ben truly downplayed his impact on the defensive side. Didnt mention his DPOY year, didnt mention advanced stats had him as the most impactful defender in those finals against the Lakers, and doesn't mention he made the all-defensive team 9-10 times. THAT is true greatness on the defensive side.
No you cant
I don’t know if this was mentioned in some aspect or another, but Jordan typically didn’t miss “looks” or open players. Throughout his career, especially in this season & the following seasons, he used various tactics to invoke the Jordan mentality out of his teammates. He said that he would get a look from teammates or grumbling, but eventually they would get so competitive that they would take it to the next level - then he had confidence to feed them. Also, Jordan struck fear into his opponents by not passing the ball or, not giving up the shot, rather, even when doubled or triple teamed. He knew and wanted to demonstrate that he was unstoppable and of that he wouldn’t quit. Ultimately, he played with players that complimented his game. There’s no comparison to MJ, none.
Great vid as always Ben! MJ's hangtime, first step, hands, and fluid body control was like watching a dude who was half-man/half-panther play basketball. Phenomenal finisher, dead-on mid-range game, underrated passer, All-league defender, and had an often overlooked off-ball game which made him scalable despite being a high volume scorer.
I agree mostly with this video...with mild exceptions for the 3 pt shot and defense assessment.
I do believe MJ is limited as a 3 pt shooter (he would never be elite like Curry, Nash or Bird...even with higher priority and practice). But MJ with more practice would become a better 3 pt shooter and he generally shot at higher 3PT % with higher volume in his '90 and '93 season with the original 3 pt line. I believe his shooting style at the apex of his jump would have limited effects on 3 PT shots at the corners. It would be the straight on 3 pt shots that he may be less consistent without changing his shooting stroke. But at the end of the day, MJ's offense would probably be most optimal at about five 3FGA's per game and shooting 37% from three is reasonable if he displays good shot selection.
And a young MJ used to gamble alot more when he was revved up on defense. As the championship years progressed, Jordan took less gambles to conserve his energy for offense and concentrated more on locking up his guy. I remember when a big man received a pass on a pick and roll, MJ was great at swiping the ball at the last second to prevent an easy dunk or layup with his timing and quick hands. And those plays can be demoralizing when the Bulls' pressure defense was making it difficult for the opposing team to get a clean shot.
I completely respect your comment and you brought up great points. Imo I think Mj would’ve hit 38% to 39% on 3pters for career with original line if he played in this era, he was a pure shooter after all but Bird was more of a purer shooter, so I can see why you would have him at 37% in the 90’s right below Bird if Mj took more 3s. So I totally respect your take. Well said bro.
Jordan's swipes are underrated tbh, if you watch how he jumps one direction and swipes the opposite it makes him a hard person to shake on ball.
MJ playmaking is truly underrated considering he never played with another elite offensive talent. Pippen was very good offensively but not elite. All the playmakers ahead of Jordan played with elite offensive talent. Pippen in his prime after Jordans 1st retirement avg 22ppg as the bulls 1st option.. which was most in his career. Imagine Jordans playmaking if he had more options like an elite front court player.
I WAS WAITING FOR THIS ONE!
Yessir!
Facts 💯 easily the most well-made basketball series on youtube
If you go back and watch tape, he's actually an underrated passer.
I like this video, as it's an objective analysis of MJ. I have a complaint, however, when you said he's not an all time great wing defender. You don't get DPOY, 9x defensive first team, and being #3 in steals and #4 in steals per game without being all-time great. Remember, he "hit pay dirt more often than he did not."
Awards from the league/media usually consist of Defensive Stats (Blocks/Steals/etc). Thinking Basketball is measuring overall Defensive Impact which is reduced when you get burned on defensive gambles.
What's amazing is despite Jordan's many burns, he had even more successes which makes him incredibly good! He leans more towards a "moderate risk high reward" type of defender.
@@venturer577 I understand. And I respect what Thinking Basketball said in terms of gambling. He did gamble a lot. Which also means he did get burned sometimes. But his stats reaching levels hardly anyone, let alone a guard reached shows he was WAY MORE successful than not. Not just sometimes.
It's like a person averaging a $500,000 salary just by playing the lottery. Did they get burned a bit? Probably so. But they're still an all time great lottery player because of the massive success they garnered. Same with Jordan. For him to get that high in steals and blocks, win DPOY and defensive teams, and be so high in box +- with 6 rings, he's an all time great defender.
If he didn’t gamble, he will never be 3 times steal leader,also the word gamble makes it look bad,how about “anticipation “ if he had used that for another player ,you all would have been screaming “high basketball iq. Just saying
Its crazy how i cant remember the last time ive actually seen a clip of jordan missing a shot or turning it over
Goes to show how much the media can shape the perception. They make it seem like he was perfect
@@DanielZ534 Not just media, but also just regular fans who get very protective of the image of their idols.
@@DanielZ534 most highlights, no matter the sport, tend to only focus on the positive. I was thinking the same of D Rose's crazy lay-ups recently. You never see a missed lay-up of his pre-injury days 🤷🏽♂️
@@northerniggy8261 yea for sure. All that contributes to why the past is tends to be remembered better than it actually was
@@MasterAppels same with Kyrie dude makes impossible layups and looks like he never misses then you watch the whole game and scratch your head a little
Man this video was fun to watch and thank you for making it! The nostalgia around MJ is so much that people think he really had no weaknesses and many big youtube videos say that exactly. Its enjoyable to watch an objective breakdown on his incredible strengths as well as his weaknesses of gambling on both sides of the ball.
Pj wright the pea brain troll. You're a known MJ naysayer
THis is probably the first video I've seen of someone discussing and showing his real play rather than just talking about awards and intangibles, looking at you ESPN
More than Jordan just check out his channel he has o many great videos like this
@@t-god2439 oh I know, I’ve seen his other videos, but the difference is that it feels to me like other players have their performance and gameplay assessed, whereas with Jordan it seems like it’s just intangibles and numbers
Great video, great series! I love that the videos are not simply highlighting but actually explaining why it IS a highlight. Showing the details that are easy to miss at times and giving context!
Comical
17:07 this action is epitomy of mj greatness.
I knew he was a good passer but I never knew he was that good at creating open shots for his teammates.
His scoring alone causes 5 defenders to pay attention to him
Is it not obvious?
passing is not playmaking. he's an elite playmaker, not a passer
@knicks dolan's kinda like Steph with his gravity
So Ben is saying that Curry's pickoffs were more of anticipations than gambles while for Jordan it isn't? Yeah right Ben. So who has more steals/game?
The "ooos" and aaahs" are endless watching MJ and Kobe at work. I was young for Mike's prime but I remember being fascinated at his finesse in movement. That play at 17:05 is a great example. Dude was a freak athletically, combined with insane skill and top notch competitive edge. A joy to watch. Then Kobe came around and brought that same kind of package but in his own way. These two are so special and I'm glad to see this kind of analysis on them. You're the goat
glaze
@@johncasterline12453 I prefer maple bars, but weird of you to bring that up
I like how you bring the flow into the history of the game. Thank you for keeping the team in the history of peak stars and their shining careers. I like the kaleidoscope perspective on so many stars.
I think this undervalues Jordan's defense by a lot.
Being aggressive in defense is not only about getting the steal, but also about threatening the steal.
When you threaten the steal, your opponent might hesitate, and make a suboptimal play. How is that counted in the stats? (Hint: it is not counted at all, except in +/- stats, which instead are too inclusive to talk about a single part of a single part of someone's impact)
Too much statistics, not enough watching of whole games for pure game impact.
Still a well researched, and well made video.
He doesn't hoop
This was your most critical video....he was one of the best defenders to ever play and a greater passer than you gave him credit for.
Great series but it didn't do him justice at all.
Your videos are amazing btw.
Man, can't wait for more of these. I never saw Jordan play but seeing these types of videos on guys I did see play so I can compare them will be great. Thank you again for this series
The Greatest ever , EVER Michael Jordan! End of story!
lebron
@@yarratrailhoon6295 lebron? Really Laughed out loud. Not just lol.
@@naturalblockade3412 much better basketballer in a non fake era
@@yarratrailhoon6295 and this makes LeBron the greatest ever?
@@naturalblockade3412 yep. Real rings
This is why I hate analysts sometimes....so much opinion imported under the guise of analysis. In an attempt to be balanced you deny the obvious... that Jordan was one of the greatest perimeter defenders of all times. His help defense was highly disruptive his on ball defense was elite. How are using his guarding Magic as a case study when making him the scorer is the best option of the two terrible options. Magic could not be stopped.
He also locked Magic down in OT in game 3 of the 1991 finals. Odd people suddenly "forget" that important information.
@@x-man9473 the man said one of the few guards that won defensive player of the year multiple times steals leader was not an elite defender. 😒
@@martelljhixson He's also a record 9 time all defensive first team member. The fist player to record 200 steals and 100 blocks in a season. The most blocked shots in a season by a guard. Led the league in steals 3 times. Which is even more impressive considering Jordan led the league in scoring a record 10 times.
@@x-man9473 Bruh...all facts. Not opinion masquerading as analysis.
@@martelljhixson You should read my new website Media Madness. It has a sports section that talks about basketball players and gives a detailed analysis
Anyone disappointed we are already at MJ.
I wanted the series to have 100 episodes
Me too! But they take forever. I'm hoping to make a follow-up series on the players who didn't get a profile in this one...skipping certain players is painful! lol
@@ThinkingBasketball - You gotta do McHale. Peak McHale was the most valuable weapon in NBA history.
@@ThinkingBasketball understandable, greatest peaks is reserved for the very best!!
Im excited about the follow up series, forgotten or hidden stars would be awesome, Berry, Dantley, English, Gervin all players I know were great, no idea why they were and would love to learn.
@@ThinkingBasketball If/when you skip over Kobe, the knives will be out in the comments section. Of course, any interaction is good interaction according to youtube ;)
@@kingofthenoobs he said in his peak kobe has a case for being a top 5 offensive player ever. he'll definitely do kobe
How many hours of film does it take to analyze all these stats sheeeesh. Much respect to the dedication.
The amount of people that are surprised by the content in this video regarding Jordan, honestly shows they haven't watched him or haven't analyzed his game at all
Most people don’t know shit about basketball.
This term is usually used in boxing but it’s also applicable here.
big facts
You have to realize that there are a lot of young kids on the internet. Some of them are not even pre-teens lol. So they def didn't know much about Jordan apart from the hyperbolic GOAT debate and maybe the Last Dance docuseries.
Or maybe because when people explain how good players are like Kobe and MJ, they just say "clutch" or "big-time scorers". It's very limited of what they really are.
People in general just rely on eye-test to analyze someone, and mostly the standout plays overshadow how they excel in other ways. By watching this video, you get the benefit of focusing on one play on how they do other things, which you only can do because someone is explaining it for you.
Yea Jordan's alright but is he steph curry with a 40 inch vertical ?
Well Jordan has never "never lost" so I'd say no, he's not curry with 40 inch vertical
I’m confused, is it a joke?
@@funpuns085 it's a JOJO REFERENCE
depends on what you mean. was he the three point sniper Curry is? no. but since his era focused on the mid-range, with is patented fadeaway being unstoppable and historically deadly you could argue he is just as good of a shooter but on different shots. with regard to the 40 inch vertical, the league wished jordan only had a 40 inch vert. lol.
@@theheebs100 you did not just say michael jordan is on a similar level of shooting then wardell stephen curry
Damn you really had to release this as I was about to sleep. Ah well, this is worth it.
What isn't taken into account is MJ playing every play at the highest level. He never took defense off nor did he slow up the offense. No one has/had the heart and the motor of MJ. His intensity and determination was unbeatable. No one was better at being prepared for anything on the court.
glaze
The lack of spacing watching these clips kind of drives me insane I want to scream get the fuck away from Jordan to the teammates half the time 😂😂😂
It was an inside game.. not a 3 pt contest
imagine how dominant jordan would be with spacing.
Imagine what Jordan would do in such an open league like today? Even the forwards and Centers don't stay in the paint. Part of it is the rule changes. No illegal defense, plus the defensive three second rule, but Jordan would have so much more freedom after beating his man.
@@nostalgicbliss5547 Little kids don't like to hear it, but todays generation of superstars are a bit overrated. All they have to do is beat their man and they get a highlight dunk.
@@nostalgicbliss5547
This is why I laugh when I hear people say "Jordan had Dennis Rodman" as a means to discredit him.
Rodman couldn't average 10 PPG in an empty gym and had no jumpshot to speak of. In other words, you couldn't really space the floor with Rodman on the court (highly problematic when such a player is averaging 35-40 MPG), which means more defensive attention on Jordan. If anything, having Rodman wad as much a detriment as it was a benefit.
If you replace Rodman with any above average PF of that era, they still win 3 more rings.
Anyone who's read Ben's Goat article already has the privilege of seeing just how well these Peaks stack up with each other.
Jordan plays that 2K MyCareer defense where he wants to be involved in every defensive possession even in cases he doesn't need or maybe even shouldn't be. Sometimes overreacting is always better than the typical star player who doesn't put enough effort.
I think his defensive play style can be very valuable when he has the right players around him. In the late 90s with guys like Pippen, Harper, and Rodman around him, it allowed the Bulls to cover for him and rotate if he missed on his gambles. The 80s Bulls weren't as good defensively, and I think that's largely due to having poor defenders around him
@@nolanrussell6326 I mean, Bulls defense was good in those years so it wasn't hurting the team too much. Just like Ben said, it gave some free points sometimes.
This is some of the best produced basketball content I’ve ever seen