Starship Lore : D'Deridex Class - Predator of the Alpha Quadrant
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ย. 2024
- What's up Lore Masters -
Let's discuss the Alpha Quadrant and the Romulan Star Empire's D'deridex Class starship. One of the most powerful ships of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. The Fearsome Rival of the Galaxy Class Starship.
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"The Prometheus incident was done by D'Tan and his separatists and not the Tal Shiar. I'm not forced to say this at gunpoint. *romulan disruptor sound in the background*"
*body thump*
Lore Reloaded What body?
BEEP.
Wasn't Tal Shiar completely crippled by the time of the Prometheus incident? Or was that just the Obsidian Order?
They would both have deep cover and secondary bases and operatives but ya most were killed in the attack on the fake founders Homeworld.
yep, always when playing as Romulans in the STO, I choose the D'Deridex Class
There are a whole bunch of additional points you could make regarding the D'Deridex vs. Galaxy comparison. And that "they sent 2 Warbirds to capture the Enterprise" argument is disregarding a whole bunch of important factors.
-It wasn't just "we're sending 2 Warbirds to capture a random generic Galaxy class ship". It was "we're sending 2 Warbirds to capture the most famous flagship in the enemy fleet, a Galaxy class ship commanded by a widely-respected captain and with some of the most renowned experts in a variety of disciplines among its crew".
-It wasn't "we're sending 2 Warbirds to kill one Federation ship" either. It was specifically a *CAPTURE* mission, where they were not meant to be causing serious damage to the Enterprise or to destroy it.
Given those factors, sending *ONLY* 2 Warbirds indicates a power gap in the Romulan ship's favour, rather than the reverse.
"And we would have gotten away with it too, if not for the Rabin and that meddling Doctor!"
What are my thoughts?
Thought of the day: When you are standing face to face with a ship that uses a micro black hole as power source, there is no shame in asking for replacement brown pants.
To compare those to your standard federation AM supported fusion reactor(ie warpcore) is like comparing a garden hose to the Hoover dam. If it's a naked singularity then all bets are off(literally).
This ship was no match against the Dominion, and despite it's size, which is mainly empty space, it's not as powerful as it would appear. A galaxy class starship is little bit more massive and can outgun it slightly, despite this ship being twice the length of a Galaxy. But as said, this thing is mostly empty space. In the Voyager episode "Message in a bottle" we see three D'deridex class vessels taking on 1 Akira and 2 Defiants and the Federation ships did not seem to be 'scared' or somewhat and come in just blazing open firing on the three massive D'deridexes. True, it was the USS Prometheus that destroyed one of them using the multivectral assault mode and 2 doctors (who made an oath never to do harm) are have massive joy after destroying one of those ships and 1,500 Romulans onboard. Ehhhh, right....
I was always under the impression that both ships had their strengths and weaknesses over each other and that any battle between the two would come down to tactics, with a definite surprise
advantage going towards the romulans in lieu of their cloaking device
Romulans do most beautiful esthetic and dangerous ships, using smart shady tactics, all in service of winning.
In the episode Tin man a warbird overwhelmed the Enterprise.
They are both powerful ships , the Enterprise D can fire 10 torpedoes at once an that's alot of fire power , an the war bird has powerful disruters an plasma torpedoes , I think they both beautiful an prob even matches to one another
They got there impulse drives from stolen Goauld Cargo ships.
Don't forget the 2 defiant class starships. You know Starfeet is not in the negotiating mood when they send a small Task Force of 1 Akira and 2 defiant Class Starships.
hah, that's true for sure..
When you curb stomp a Nebula, no reason not to send a warm greeting through sheer firepower :)
I think sending the Nebula was an hail mary play. The only starship in range with decent firepower. This did take place during the Dominion War and before the Romulans join(we're ticked) the war.
When did that happen?
Voyager episode 'Message in a Bottle"
Concerning the power of the of the Warbird compared to a Galaxy Class, in the episode Tin Man a single D'deridex manages to quite easily damage and almost disable the Enterprise D in the race to the tinman. In an attack that lasted barely 30 seconds the shields were drained by 70%, which indicates the ships power.
This in my opinion is the most beautiful ship in Star Trek, its an absolute work of art!
Romulan style
*Borg attack Romulan and Federation colonies along the Neutral zone*
Romulan leader:...I LOVE THAT SHADE OF GREEN! Quick, before we meet the Federation, paint all of our ships that color!
Alamandorious I see what you did there
Multiple comments redacted by TALSHI...BEEEP/COMMENT TERMINATED AT SOURCE.
More likely, the borg captured one and assimilated the paint job.
Or just payed premium 😂
Our HUMAN blood oxygenates from Blue to Red as a result of Iron.
Their ROMULAN blood (and also Vulcan/Reman blood) oxygenates from Orange to Green as a result of Copper.
On engineering pressure valves for steam locomotives (and otherwise) the danger band is often coloured Red to inform people of risk. The Romulans are obviously just communicating danger to others _both_ by the sheer size of the ship (an obvious bluff), and also by its colour that represents blood.
Just because 1 warbird can beat a galaxy class doesn't mean you shouldn't send 2 warbirds to do the job.
I can agree with this for sure..
Just because the crew of a galaxy class ship view a warbird as a threat doesn't mean a warbird is vastly more powerful than one.
That's false reasoning.
In war, you never want to be in a fair fight.
So if you ARE in a fair fight, you should be worried, because that means your odds of survival are about 50/50.
Think about it. Hell, it doesn't have to even be comparable to you in power to be a threat. As long as it's powerful enough to cause you harm, be careful.
(I mean, look at what eventually destroyed the enterprise. There's no way in hell that was an even match-up, but the smaller weaker ship still won. Kinda. XD)
In addition it's made pretty clear that for a long time the Romulans had been isolated and those in Star Fleet weren't sure just how powerful they were. Not only that but if you are face to face with one, you never know if there are a few more that are going to decloak behind you when the weapons start firing... And finally they know that if they start fighting with a Romulan ship it could be the beginning to a war... So yeah that last one alone is a good reason to be nervous about facing one... Knowing you could be the flash point of a war is a lot to handle.
@@LoreReloaded That's true. But on the other hand, just because a Warbird is SLIGHTLY less powerful than a Galaxy class, doesn't mean a Galaxy crew wouldn't see it as a threat. 10% less powerful can kick your...ahem....backside if you make a mistake. Or if they just get lucky. Also, IRL, the concept of "10% less powerful" would not be a legitimate assessment. Most weapon platforms have advantages and disadvantages, if you're talking about roughly the same tech level. For instance, one ship might be faster with a flexible weapons suite, while the other might be more maneuverable with more powerful (but less flexible) weapons. "10% less" or "10% more" would be somewhat subjective depending on your viewpoint. Given skilled commanders/crew experience, the tactical situation and random chance - either one could win. Therefore, either one could be a threat to the other, worth taking seriously.
Koo
"When the E-D crew encounter a Romulan Warbird they act like they are facing imminent destruction." There are a number of explanations:
1. The bird is more powerful.
2. They don't know.
3. The two are equally powerful and it comes down to the skill of the commander, the competence of the crew, and a lucky shot.
4. M.A.D. scenario ensues.
5. They are not so concerned with whether or not they are destroyed but whether their actions trigger a wider war with the Romulans.
6. In terms of weapons, shields, and maneuverability the Bird is probably weaker but the cloak gives it an edge. And you never know how close his friends are.
That's right, you don't know how close his friends are. But you can be sure he keeps his enemies closer.
It's absolutely number 5 - Picard always saw that the only measure of victory was to not have a conflict. He would have done everything to diffuse a situation even if he knew he had the upper hand.
A common theme in TNG episodes is that Star Fleet is looking to avoid wars at all costs. So confrontations with volatile and powerful powers like the Romulans and Cardassians were always tense
I agree with 6
The old double d is one of my favorite star trek vessels across all series. Miss playing one in sto.
*insert sexual joke*
That ship couldn’t turn in that game love it design hate playing it too heavy
In the TOS episode The Enterprise Incident the Enterprise, under orders from Starfleet, flat out stole a cloaking device from the Romulans and then took off with it (and their commander) back to Federation space, so there is a long history probably of both sides flat out stealing tech from the other side without going to war.
I'd say it's like with North Korea where both are at war but there's a cease fire in place that both sides are willing to push but neither truly break.
The Star destroyer of ST.
That actually was a scripted and filmed, but then deleted scene where the Romulan ship was supposed to have been the product of espionage. This scene and its ramifications did make it into the James Blish adaptation of the episode.
It was a war a cold war. The usa and ussr did the same thing for decades.
“Yeet”
The Federation TOS Era
Regarding how a Warbird stacks up to a Galaxy.
There is a key scene in the episode "Tin Man" where a Romulan D'deridex fires on the Enterprise and drains 70% of their shields and basically cripples the ship so it can't chase them using a few seconds of fire from its forward disruptor.
It's noteworthy because it's the only time I can remember where the Romulans or Enterprise didn't have any reason to screw around pulling punches, and both ships seemed in 100% fight ready condition.
This is the same Warbird that blows its engines out trying to keep up with the Enterprise at warp to, so if anything it's even possible its power systems had suffered some level of damage, or the majority of power had been routed to propulsion.
ColdBlueLight exactly
Romulans, to my knowledge anyways, didn't like to engage in even fights if they didn't have to. So even if the Warbird was more than a match for A Galaxy class, if the result was questionable they wouldn't take the chance unless they could get the drop on it, or outnumbered it.
Clim hazzard. Nobody likes to get into a fair fight! I think the Romulans were ironically in a position where their ships would massacre the fed equivalents then they would soundly lose any war that resulted. They simply couldnt match the capacity of the feds, their few warbirds would eventually choke on endless fleets of Reliants and Excelsiors!
DrewLSsix For clarification the USS Reliant is a Miranda class Federation starship
David Sadler. I knew that.... just made a mistake lol.
DrewLSsix I knew what you meant just pulling your leg a little
Not to mention the MANY diverse and different ships and classes the Feds kept making. ESPECIALLY in regards to killing stronger enemies then Romulans like Borg in particular. Pretty sure if a Fed ship can take on a Cube or Sphere from an enemy like that a Warbird wont be much a problem. These are deadly but not so much in a fair fight. Remember in the Dominion war even when backed by their strongest enemies turned allies the Romulans took huge casualties the quickest overall
Has been my favorite ship since I first saw it as a kid. It has a beautiful silhouette, and it's absolutely massive. The cloaking device is just the cherry on top.
It does have a quality about it..
Same! I always loved D'Deridex
My speculation based on TOS episode "Balance Of Terror" is that all Romulan ships used quantum singularities. This could explain why Scotty thought that the Bird of Prey only had impulse power--he couldn't locate a matter/antimatter matrix on the ship. Perhaps he just didn't know to look for a quantum singularity instead. After all, it had been a century since anyone in the Federation had seen a Romulan vessel. Food for thought.
Excellent work around, I always thought that thing about the TOS war birds only having impulse was dumb, it'd takes decades if not centuries to get anywhere without ftl travel lol
It makes sense that all Romulan ships (even their shuttles and stuff) would use the same energy/propulsion technology.
Although they did also use things like "Klingon" D7 battlecruisers which would require dilithium.
There is also written inference (sadly non Canon) that the D'Deridex warbird is individually tailored to it's Commander. In the book The Devil's Heart, a warbird is sent to retrieve the Heart and encounters the Enterprise. The fight IS described (not trying to create spoilers) as evenly matched. But there is counter evidence (non Canon) as well. The Romulan Senator who defected with two of his aids did say that the D'Deridex class is "a bit overstated" which implies that Federation ships are actually Superior in speed, computer power, and sensor technology. Now is this an advantage? Not necessarily and in a 3rd non Canon source there is evidence of something called the "D'Kazanak class" which does address all of the issues with the D'Deridex and improves them in all aspects. And one more point, it seems their cousins the Remans are either at level, or even Superior in ship development with the fielding of the Scimitar class and this is a Canon ship (Star Trek Nemesis) which is equal in some ways, but absolutely Superior in other ways to the Sovereign class.
yeah. most, if not all, of their ships had quantum singularities.
My understanding is that Romulan territory has very little dilithium. They developed Singularity Cores to power starships instead.
The Romulan fleet could be like the US Navy, where the smaller ships use conventional fuel and the aircraft carriers use nuclear reactors.
Now I'm defending the continuity of Nemesis. Look what you made me do.
And somewhere at the back of the fleet is a single centurion in a spacesuit on a peddle boat.
+Andrew Thomson the dil mines and such could be for romulan civilian use as well
Well, it makes sense that not every ship in your fleet releases a hole in space-time when its destroyed/disabled.
or they mine the conventional fuel for any potential "allied" forces to use. They are sort of a State Sponsor of terrorism...
@@kinggoten or straight-up trade - sell the Dil for the latinum to build your fleet.
There is something missing.
In "The Defector" after the Klingons decloack Tomalak tells Picard that he will not survive his onslaught to which Picard will tell him that neither will he.
The gist is that the two D'Deridex will focus the Enterprise down while the Klingons and the Enterprise will focus the D'Deridex with Tomalak abord down (identified by which one calls the Enterprise).
In the end it is a M.A.D. (Mutual Assured Destruction) situation.
The Romulans do not retreat because they will surely loose this engagement but because Tomalak has to fear that he may not survive the engagement.
In the end he values his life over a quite frankly meaningless (the Enterprise is to be captured and not destroyed) victory over the Federation while Picard gladly gives up his live to ensure the technology of the Federation does not fall into enemy hands.
The D’Deridex is probably stronger than a Galaxy.
But the issue is not really the meta.
You see the South Dakota class battleship was better and more useable than a Bismarck class battleship.
In a direct confrontation you best bet would be the South Dakota.
But people often forget that even the victor may pay a price. The Bismarck is very well able to inflict sever damage to the South Dakota… South Dakota has the better chances of winning but people will still die and the ship wll be damaged.
The issue not that you can beat it, the issue is how much it will cost you to beat it.
That is why Tomalak brought two D'Deridex, to ensure he does not suffer too much damage against one Galaxy.
Praxics thank you 🙌🏻😎
lets also take note of the fact that that isn't any galaxy class star ships, it's the enterprise manned by individuals such as data who can make near instant, on the fly, shield/weapon-technobabble-bullshit and picard, who had such an advanced understanding of space warfare that they named a manoeuvre after him, riker, who has turned down commands of other star ships multiple times, making him possibly the most experienced first officer to serve on a galaxy class. those factors, this amazing crew is unique to the enterprise.
in short: a master with a stick will beat a noob with a sword.
so while the enterprise can probably take a D'deridex, most other galaxy class starships probably can't.
You've read into and theory-crafted a whole scenario. Cannon says otherwise. a single volley from a Warbird drops the enterprises shields by 70%(tinman). Maybe the Enterprise and the 3 BOP could have taken out just Tomalaks ship... Equally plausible reading/interpretation of Picards retort. I mean if we're just making shit up right?
Hey! Another HAL...
Hope you are having a great day!
And that my friends is called a Pryyic Victory.
I always loved these beasties.
Watching TNG as a kid with my dad it was always an 'oh shit' moment when one of them showed up.
I was always left with the impression that the Federation and Starfleet had no direct counter to a one on one stand off with one of these warbirds and that always seemed to be reinforced by the reactions of the characters on screen.
This warbird always represented the Romulan's Bismarck in my mind.
Slade, Really now that I think about it, did Starfleet even know what the Romulan ship's capabilities even were? If I remember correctly the Romulans hadn't been heard from for a while...
I fully admit that I am not as well versed in ST lore as I am in other fandoms however to my understanding the Romulans withdrew behind their border for some number of decades and the Federation didn't really hear from them during that time.
Then suddenly the Romulans turned up at the border one day with the D'deridex and Starfleet kinda crapped the bed.
It's still their flagship Class. When the small amount of Warbirds attack (went straight into a trap) the Founders sent most of their fleet to wipe them out. They weren't taking any chances Against multiple Warbirds with other smaller backup ships.
Great episode, I always loved this ship.
I think one thing you can look at to get a sense of the firepower on a warbird is the DS9 episode where O'Brien is bouncing around in time and sees the destruction of the station by a single D'Deridex. Granted they took DS9 by surprise(and then the event got undone), but taking down the whole station with one ship even on a surprise attack must mean it can shell out a pretty good amount of damage when it needs to.
"It's a faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!"
sometimes I think the fake was good enough to pass inspection, but the look in sisko's eyes when he handed it to Vreenak was what tipped him off
thegeneral123 it’s a steaaaaaaaaake
Dude Vreenak and Khan are total Star Trek classics!
@Cyphox IT'S REEEAAL!!! DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?!
You should watch out for explosives around you....
One of the most aesthetically pleasing ships to me
We've seen the Big D outclassed(when it comes to pure combat) by much lesser enemies. The Warbird is the preeminent military vessel this side of the galaxy, I honestly believe the idea that if they'd wanted to destroy the Enterprise, it'd be destroyed.
"Hey man, you know your ship's got a hole in it right?"
"What?! Where?!"
I always thought the shape of the D'Deridex was weird, like who thought it was a smart idea to build a ship with a hole right through the middle?
In the opening movie of the game star trek armada worf flies a defiant class through the hole
If you understand weapon targeting systems it makes perfect sense. Most weapon targeting systems would identify it as one large target, shooting for the middle is ALWAYS what you do if you want to hit the target. Modern weapon systems targeting always target the middle of the ship/aircraft, so if the middle is empty you miss, and do no damage.
The same designer that told the Asari to put a giant hole through the Destiny Ascension.
"We're only being tapped on the shoulder or we wouldn't be here talking about it" seems pretty clear.
For what it's worth, in the Star Trek PC game "A Final Unity" in the first mission you encounter a ship crewed by Garidians, which are closely allied/related to the Romulans. So much that they also have access to D'Deridex class Warbirds, although they are painted more grey than green, they otherwise look identical. When Picard asks Worf for his analysis, Worf says "The Garidian Warbird is similar to the Romulan D'Deridex class. It is less maneuverable than the Enterprise, but it has slightly more firepower."
In game combat, however, you could usually come out ahead on a 2v1 or 3v1 encounter, but not without some dings.
Well yes painterfox, the player tends to be stronger then NPC's. That's a gaming thing tho.
D'Deridix was built for war while galaxy was built for families and holideck leisure centers. The Romulans always had the strongest ships in the old DOS PC game of star trek
Let's see a Romulan Warbird take this much firepower. th-cam.com/video/H_XbWq49vUM/w-d-xo.html. I bet a few torpedoes get through.
Bridge commander follows similar logic.
Though interestingly enough, I find in that game that a warbird will kick your ass easily if you let the AI try and fight it, but you can destroy one with little to no damage if you do it yourself.
But again, it comes down to the same reasoning;
Warbird has more firepower, but is less maneuverable. (and ingame that's highly exploitable, especially because the warbird's weapon firing arcs are very limited.)
Ingame tactic for taking on a warbird is as follows:
-Close to point blank range. Being at a distance puts you at a disadvantage. You can out-turn them, but at longer distances that won't help you much, since you have to move quite far relative to how far they have to turn.
- Their weapons consist of a disruptor beam and plasma torpedo launchers in the centre of the forward hull, another rear mounted plasma torpedo, and 4 plasma pulse cannons mounted on the front of the nacelles (2 either side). The torpedos are easy to avoid, and the disruptor beam is not that strong. What you have to avoid at all costs is taking hits from the plasma cannons.
- Once you're at close range, fly over the ship, and stay slightly behind and above it at extreme close range. You can outturn them, so they'll struggle to bring any weapons to bear, while you have something like 270+ degrees of phaser coverage. Due to how phasers work ingame, your best bet is to turn slowly from port to starboard, but the main thing is to remain behind them at all times, and never EVER let them turn to face you. Being above them is preferred, but being below or to the side is also fine. Do watch the rear plasma torpedo launcher. It's not a major threat, but it can take potshots at you if you pass it. Again though, at extreme close range this is unlikely.
- Chances are high they'll try and cloak to get away from you. The cloaking device is on the upper hull in the middle. Although it's not a disaster, them cloaking is a nuisance, so you generally want to take out the cloak before you do anything else. Since you're able to so thoroughly outmaneuver them, you can repeatedly pound their upper shield, since it's easy to concentrate your fire.
- Once you've destroyed their cloaking device, target their disruptor cannons. If you can take all 4 of them out, the ship is basically a sitting duck, since none of the other remaining weapons are very threatening. Pick the target apart at your leisure. Or... Do the Starfleet thing and get it to surrender, I guess?
If you do this correctly you should come out of this fight with the warbird completely crippled or destroyed, and your galaxy class ship having all of it's shields at 70% strength or above.
Do it badly and you'll get wrecked.
Incidentally an ambassador class is still strong enough to pull this off, though you'll be cutting things a lot closer, and likely will take some damage.
Sovereign class, in spite of it's superior strength (especially ingame), doesn't fare much better than the Galaxy class does. You still have to follow the same tactics - if you don't your ship will likely take extreme damage. You'll probably win the sovereign vs warbird matchup regardless, but you'll have major hull damage unless you use this tactic.
Incidentally, the nature of how this strategy works means that while you can easily shred a single warbird (but will die if you're not paying attention), two of them is a disaster, and you stand no chance in hell of surviving two warbirds, much less beating them. (not even in a sovereign. You WILL die.)
Overall while clearly this is a game, I actually like this presentation of events. I do think the warbird is a little TOO vulnerable. (it should have some extra beam weapons to cover it's blind spots - not enough to eliminate this tactic, but enough that it remains a moderate threat the whole time, rather than a sitting duck.), but having it such that it outguns the galaxy class but an alert captain of a Galaxy class ship can exploit is lack of maneuverability to cripple it actually makes a lot of sense.
It also does a good job of explaining why a single warbird is threatening but not a disastrous matchup, but trying to take on two of them is suicide. (the second can cover the first one's weaknesses, so you have nowhere to hide.)
I like that a warbird isn't a pushover ingame. It's a credible threat. But you can still take it on if you know what you're doing.
That makes a lot of sense even for the series as a whole.
I always went with the informal rule of thumb that the following held true:
Galaxy class = warbird = klingon Vor'cha class
They may differ in details, and their specific strengths and weaknesses, but each one is roughly an equal match for the other.
That makes sense logically, it makes sense for narrative purposes given what these ships are intended to be, and it would make sense in a game as well.
I don't know if a D'Deridex outguns a Galaxy-class, but I would say at the least they were evenly matched. You are right that the Enterprise definitely treated the warbirds like a real threat whenever they saw them.
A few things could be explained away when explaining the quantum singularity Drive. While being a bit high-maintenance, it does generate an incredible amount of power so it would be effective when properly managed in a combat capacity. It's also possible that this technology allows them to maintain a warp bubble even if their nacelles are configured differently. It would even be possible to explain away the impulse drive by not having it being an Impulse Drive. They could merely maneuver by altering their gravitational profile. It's entirely possible that the single Romulan ship was powerful enough to take on the Enterprise at that point in time. The reason I say that is because unlike the Federation, the romulans where openly militaristic and as such would have no qualms about further developing their weapons technology. I still maintain that disruptors while being less versatile and flexible than phasers have more raw power than phasers. The reason that two of these ships would withdraw after the Klingon warbirds appeared could be less of a matter of power differential and more about not risking open conflict with 2 Powers at the same time. The Romulans could most likely take on the Klingons and they would definitely stand a very good chance against the Federation, but they would stand no chance against both. The reason that Starfleet Personnel are always on edge when they're near one of these vessels could just be the simple fact that if you see one decloaked vessel it's entirely possible that there are more nearby. They were concerned about the ship they did see, but they were far more concerned about the ships that they did not see.
+Mike Vasquez very well said, I too agree that at that point in TNG the romulans more likely then not vastly outclassed the Starfleet ships but for whatever reason(possibly even what you point out) choose not to fight, but then again the Romulans never seem to seek out battle they are not Klingons afterall. Or maybe it is the political issues they have on their homeworld that prevented open conflict with the KDF/Federation .
Zero Cool they are intensely xenophobic. That would be a strong motivator for continuously researching weapons technology, but I see your point. There would be many factors. The military and civilian government did frequently butt heads over policy decisions.
God bless the Romulan Warbird. Every Jem'Hadar fighter firing at a Warbird was a Jem'Hadar fighter not firing at a Federation starship.
Really sweet job of *@$$-Kissing,* when you were doing the whole *plausible deniability thing,* there sport!
You definitely earned your *Vladimir Putin "Information Ministry Award",* for the month!
considering how romulans like being mysterious and in tactical advantage, the different bridge configurations might be a result of variable bridge locations as to confuse potential enemies
When I first saw the D'Deridex as a kid on TNG, it was obvious in that scene the Enterprise-D could easily fit in that massive gap in the middle. Ever since then, THAT'S what I've wanted to see, for some bizzare reason.
There are no torture chambers . Those are regular Reman crew quarters.^^
no they have " special guest " quarters
Centurion, I have an appointment in the procedure room. Forward all messages there, I may need some time talking with our guest. Oh, and do be a good lad and send down some ale and a couple glasses. We wouldn't want to seem... uncivilized.
the D'deridex and the Enterprise D always seemed to be on equal footing. That in 100 battles between the two 50 would go for the galaxy and 50 for the D'Detidex. As for sending two to capture one it makes sense, capturing a ship requires skill and finesse not to blow it up.
Simon Tarses went on to serve on a Romulan warbird
D'Deridex Class power was precisely seen during Dominion war and during Prometheus incident where these ships seemed pretty weak. And it is perfectly understandable that Ent D crew never underestimated this ships because they didn`t know the exact power of these ships ... as they seemed to be significantly larger than Galaxy class and were completely new to Federation. Romulans were always boasting and pretending to be stronger and this ship is precisely what they needed to support that behaviour ... but usually they were just covering their overal weakness and rather retreated than fought. Romulans fight only when they have significant advantage over their opponent.
But you never know in Star Trek universe ... one galaxy class ship can fight completely without shields with several Jem Hadar ships and has to be destroyed only after one of the attackers rammed to the secondary hull ... and another galaxy class is destroyed by very old and obsolete Klingon bird of prey after several shots to the hull. Especially when Brannon Braga is the author of the story line ... anything can happen and nothing is cannon.
The impulse drive; the singularity is essentially an artificial black hole. I say this because in an episode of TNG Timescape an alien race mistook it for a natural black hole. So as I said impulse.
The Romulan approach to impulse with the D'deridex Class may simply be using the singularity to manipulate local gravity to create a gravitational incline that the ship rides on; always fall down the incline.
As for why see dilithium mines, and no mention or sign of the singularities being used on other Romulan craft...IT'S A FRAKKING ARTIFICIAL BLACK HOLE! They have to be hard as hell to form. Can not be easily disposed of. Are essentially highly mobile extinction level events. The D'deridex was a prestige class; huge, powerful, a galactic statement of power projection. But eventually even the Romulans had to have said to themselves "You know guys, maybe building our REALLY FUCKING EXPENSIVE ships around an artificial version of the most dangerous objects in nature isn't the best idea...right?!"
Also my favourite non-Fed ship is the Romulan scoutship seen at the start of the episode "The Defector". It's just plain beautiful.
It _has_ been hypothesised that you could use the Hawking radiation from the evaporation of a small artificial black hole for spacecraft propulsion. We're talking one with a mass of around half a million tonnes and which would last for about three years before it finished evaporating.
I fail to see how hauling an artificial black hole around is more dangerous than hauling a huge chunk of antimatter.
Anti-matter might blow up a chunk of a world, but a black hole could eat the whole frakking planet.
That's only if it's a really massive one. Stellar mass or bigger. The half-million-tonne one you'd use for spaceship propulsion would be microscopic and would be emitting so much Hawking radiation that anything that might otherwise be pulled in by its weak gravitational pull would get pushed away by the Hawking radiation.
People always overestimate the concept of a black hole. It's about matter density, not matter alone. So even a tiny mass can create a black hole if it is dense enough.
So I wouldn't say using a singularity as a power source is inherently riskier than antimatter. Rather the other way around... then again, you can't control a singularity as much as you can control antimatter, it's a bit like nuclear energy. Once you started with it, you gotta push through because it doesn't just stop.
(Not criticizing, loved the video!) While I totally agree that the use of the word Quantum is excessive in Star Trek, technically isn't Quantum Singularity the correct usage of this?
Blofeld is involved through Quantum
Always those rogue romulans with their top notch military tec :P
D'Deridex is equal to the Galaxy Class
In the episode 'The Defector' it was 2 Romulan D'Deridex Class Warbirds against the Galaxy Class U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701-D and 3 Klingon B'Rel or K'Vort Class Birds of Prey and it was stated by Lt. Commander Data in the episode 'Tin Man' that a Romulan D'Deridex Class Warbird is not as fast as a Galaxy Class Starship as for the firepower difference I think both ship classes might be equal in firepower as both a Galaxy Class Starship and a Romulan D'Deridex Class Warbird are both technologically sophisticated and powerful ships though as Picard stated when the 2 Romulan ships were firing on the Enterprise 'This is just a tap on the shoulder' we've never seen these 2 powerful Starships ever go at each other in a toe to toe slugmatch like we did with the 23rd century Romulan Warbird and the Constitution Class U.S.S. Enterprise in the T.O.S. Episodes 'Balance of Terror' and 'The Enterprise Incident'.
Whether or not the warbird is technically more powerful than the galaxy class or not, it's going to be taken as a serious threat. Even if the Enterprise could win the fight, it's going to take some serious damage and Picard has a ship full of civilians and children to consider. The Romulan commander is not hampered by such considerations and can fight much more aggressively, Picard would be forced to fight defensively and look for a way out of the fight at the earliest opportunity.
Which makes all the reason to have kids there stupid enough..
I don't disagree, pretty silly to put families on the flagship of the fleet which is also a deep space exploration vessel.
Even if it were only an exploratory vessel (without high stakes diplomatic, fact finding (even in hostile parts of the galaxy) and even combat (and deterrence - like the mission where Captain Jellico took command in!) missions!) it would still be stupid! Seriously, one tiny misstake by a civilian (and you can't be 100% sure none of them gets into sensitive parts of the ship or offends some diplomat etc.), especially a kid and you might up with tons of problems (they least of which might be that the kid actually dies, like that guy that stole a shuttle almost did - till Picard (who doesn't even like children and even complains about having them on the ship!) talks him through getting the shuttle back under control!)
Great overview. I'm wondering that the Romulans, being cautious, were very hesitant about committing these ships to pitched battle so their enemies would be left guessing their overall capabilities. After all, the Romulans were masters of subterfuge and loved to keep secrets, even when going face to face with their opponents. These ships did seem be designed with a significant emphasis on theatrics. It's sheer size, combined with cloaking tech seem to suggest it.
The ships are very intimidating when they suddenly uncloak in your face, obviously deliberate display of force. But they're also very powerful when they suddenly uncloak and attack you in the back. There's a lot of speculation about how Warbird-vs-Galaxy would play out, but I think the Romulans would never deliberately discard such a powerful advantage. If a Warbird appears right in front of you it's because it can indeed destroy you, or it wins when revealing aggression vs your desperate willingness to avoid conflict/war at almost any cost, or it's not as outgunned as it seems because other Warbirds are cloaked in a position to strike.
It was stated that the Romulan D'Deridex Class Warbird is:
1,041.62 meters long
687.88 meters wide
289.87 meters high
I love DITL and I almost expected that you were going reference that assessment of the Double D. I would tend to defer to that site, because as you said, his arguments are compelling. But growing up watching TNG first run, I always got the sense that the Galaxy and the D'Deridex were at parity. The Galaxy was faster, but the D'D has a cloak so it evened out. That's why the Romulans always tried to double team, so that they were always guaranteed the win. That's culturally critical for the Romulans as it's been shown time and again on Enterprise, on TNG, and even the entire Romulan non-aggression pact with the Dominion in DS9, that they never ever ever get into a fight if they have a reasonable expectation that they might lose. They're not gamblers.
As far as canon vs designer intent, I actually go the completely opposite way exactly for the same reason. Since the writing teams and producers are so fecklessly inconsistent, I find the original designer's opinion to be ever more valid and valuable as the correct reference point. Scaling of the starships, especially those with windows are often scaled to a specific size and then the writers or some producer decides something should be bigger to feel more epic and to paraphrase Angry Joe, "They go and FUCK IT UP!". So unless that information is correctly and regularly stated across the series such as the Enterprise-D's 1014 person crew complement, I tend to ignore inconsistency in favor of original intent.
Would you please explain why you think that the Warbird wouldn't be able to maintain a warp field? I mean I was never a fan of Gene and Matt Jefferies contention that there had to be clear space between warp nacelles anyway, as it doesn't make sense, the entire ship has to be enveloped in the warp field anyway. I'm fairly certain it was just Gene trying to invalidate all of Franz Joesph's contributions in any event, either for personal reasons or because the militarized aspect his work showed was counter to Gene's new revised utopian vision.
As for the Singularity drive (QUANTUM) I like that the Romulans went in such a completely different direction. But if the same basic warp engine function exists, then the Singularity would produce warp plasma which would then be tuned by channeling it through the Dilithium before being sent to the nacelles where the warp field is created.
As for the impulse engines..there are two possibilities in story. First, have you seen the engine exhaust on an F-117? It's possible that the D'Deridex has very then slit impulse engines that have very low plasma output and have minimized exhaust for stealth purposes, just like the Nighthawk has reduced infrared signature. Second, impulse engines have a lower powered version of a warp drive, impulse engines have driver coils that warp space for propulsion purposes. Just like the Normandy's Mass Effect Drive in stealth mode. That's standard on all Impulse engines, the plasma exhaust functions alongside that. Now, the key is, the warp drive can do the exact same thing. So even on the Enterprise they can use the warp drive to move at sublight speed if they need to. So the D'Deridex using it's warp drive for sublight is functionally possible. And if they don't have to worry about fuel concerns with the Singularity drive it would even make sense.
Though I can't name the episode, I seem to distinctly remember picard telling a warbird commander "we both have very powerful weapons at our disposal" in response to the commanders threat, and the commander seeming convinced, and immediately reducing his hostility.
I always took "if I wanted you destroyed, you'd be destroyed" as just another case of typical romulan arrogance.
And about the warbird in Tin Man, not only did it hit the enterprise from behind, which is supposed to be the weakest part of the galaxys shield. But having someone take out such a large percentage of your shield in the first few hits is something we see happen all the time in star trek with every class of ship. Its an Inconsistent cliche if anything.
If the 2002 PC game "Bridge Commander" is to be used as evidence as a simulator (using stock ships only), a D'Deridex class ship could certainly collapse the forward shields of a Galaxy Class ship and destroy it in short order. However, in practice, the Galaxy class, being the more maneuverable and agile of the two, could take advantage of its more complete phaser arcs, and roll/rotate to face the strong side shields against the warbird's weapons. Maneuvering to blind spots in the Warbird's firing arcs, then concentrating weapons on a subsystem, would mean that a Galaxy class ship could more than take on a D'Deridex class ship, depending on the captain's experience.
Have to say, I think the Warbird is simply on par with the Galaxy class. Both have their advantages and disadvantages.
The danger comes from the relative unknown that both face. Plus that if either really came to blows then it would mean War. Not just ending with either ship destroyed. I think the victor would be down to a better crew, not a better ship.
The Warbird would have to constantly face the Galaxy to use it’s considerable armaments. It’s a bigger target, with obvious structural weaknesses. The Galaxy is smaller, more maneuverable and can keep up substantial firing at any angle. But it doesn’t have armor.
Hell yeah! Been waiting for this one! :D loved this ship since I was a kid
Genuinely intimidating design.
I strongly agree! It's an awesome ship! Green is actually my number one favorite color! 1 Romulan D'Deridex Warbird versus 1 Imperial Star Destroyer! Which would win?
Well, star trek technology is at least in my opinion generally superior to SW. In SW for example clocking tech is very rare and expensive. This fact would put a slow imperial ship at a huge disadvantage. All the warbird need do is decloack in the ISDs rear arc and FIRE EVERYTHING.
"And Bomb Voyage!"
It could cloak and leave a shadow clone in its place as a decoy ship
The D'Deridex is hands-down, without argument, the single sexiest ship that has ever been presented in science fiction. Book it, done!
The Galaxy was an exploration vessel and while the Romulans did have advanced weapons tech the Federation decided that the Dedrix was more for boasting then anything else given its impractical design. hence why federation warships were smaller and way better armed, probably why the Romulans tried to steal the Prometheus. They figured out real quick when the Federation built warships they did it better then everyone else and had the capacity to mass produce them quickly. Until the Scimitar which was Reman and influenced by a human, still it managed to disable a Sovereign class warship, and thus the arms race began to build even meaner warships to fuel the Federation War machine.
Plus the replacement of Ddex with Valdore and Mogai class ships, which were basically Ddex without the bottom wing because it served no point. Honestly, the Romulan ships haven't been threatening or imposing since TOS with their hyper plasma torpedo launcher in "Balane of Terror".
Agreed the latter ships were nicer and while inferior to a Sovereign class they required less resources to build and showed a clear adaptation to dominion swarm tactics. Even so it became apparent that while the Federation was at the start in the end they had suffered the least in terms of military might as its fleets were larger then the Romulans and Klingons from the get go. Thus the Federation retained a much larger force after the war and became what amounts to the US in space. Ain't that funny.
From memory the episode titled The Enemy, where the Enterprise was facing off with a Romulan warbird, Picard very clearly says to the Romulan Commander that we both have Equally powerful arsenal at our disposal. There we go, just sayin...
Romulan D'Deridex: The sexiest starship *ever* designed. And one of the deadliest bastards sailing the black.
Easily my favorite of all the ships in Star Trek. It's gorgeous, it's a bruiser, it has disruptors,it has a cloaking device, it's romulan, it's perfect.
The warbird and galaxy were comparable. Remember ship to ship battles do not need to result in total loss of all aboard to still be too costly to seek.
There was an episode of TNG where data said that the Romulan D ship weapons were comparable to the enterprise
The danger of 1 D'Deridex is assuming there is only 1.
Love this ship design!!!
it is possible that the imperial navy and tal-shiar use the forced singularity and older or civilian ships use M/AM-RS, or that the Romulans mine dilithium to sell it to trade partners.
possible..
It could also be legacy tech when they may have needed dilithium but with the advent of the singularity core, they still have all the facilities need to mine a refine it and decided it was a great punishment too for slaves to mine a useless material. We also don't know if the Schimtar use a forced singularity or the more typical M/AM-RS.
Wasn't there a line about the "Reman mines not meeting their quota" or words to that effect? Perhaps this was a longer term thing that had been a festering problem. Maybe the Romulans got shafted in terms of sources of dilithium, and necessity is the mother of invention, which would lead them to experiment with alternative sources of power for a starship.
It's was always my feeling that the warbird and Galaxy glass we're pretty evenly matched. In which case it would be a serious threat since a battle could go either way.
He really did it. The absolute mad man. He finally made it.
Out of all sci-fi starships that I've known, the D'deridex is without question the one I would choose as my personal flagship.
I like it
Starfleet bridges changed all the time...
A D-Class Warbird is likely par to a Galaxy Class starship. I always thought it was about 5 to 10 percent more powerful. A threat, nonetheless.
I think this is the coolest ship in the trek universe!
Always found it to be a very different and interesting design, one of my favorites from Star Trek.
So a shitload of speculation. Aided by a huge pile of guessing. Means this video doesn't say anything of any importance to anyone thank you.
Oh i think the comments prove that false.. But to each their own ;)
14:04 "The MANUAL is 1041m long, 772m wide, 285m tall." That's a huge ass manual!
you know..i was thinking the same thing..
She's a beau I'll take fifty of them.
My favourite ship during the TNG era. Closely followed by the Vor'cha class
Viewscreens are stupid. WTF was that on the bridge?!! It's like trying to have situational awareness of the entire ship through a 4:3 23" monitor. It's borderline delusional.
Levent Taskan I was always leery of the way that Voyager used holographic technology, seemingly ignoring TNG's limitations that make it something special in my opinion. But having a viewscreen that can fill a wall and then disappear to avoid distractions, like the Enterprise E did in First Contact, would be a fantastic use for it. I'd think that the Defiant would face the same problem. I never used FaceTime on my last iPhone for precisely this reason, it isn't practical enough to avoid being distracting.
Kinda like the chime sound on the bridge that runs constantly, like a demented grandfather clock... ;-)
7:08 insert disrupter sound effect here
I wonder if, perhaps the D'deridex has no visible impulse engines, because the Force Singularity core acts something like the Tantalus Drive Core on the Normandy from Mass Effect, where the core would create an artificial gravity well ahead of the ship and then it just 'fell' forwards, allowing it to manouver at sublight with little to no emmisions.
Its a visually interesting design, but for the lack of any kind of sense in the sense of surface vs volume of the ship. Basically, way too much stuff to shield for the amount of volume protected. Not that Starfleet are angels in this regard, but really this isn't efficient for cargo, offense, or manufacture. Its just pretty, and intimidating.
Maybe the energy fields require elbow room to work in this design?
If you wanted to go full nerd, the power needed to shield/cloak a ship this size/weight would dictate the appearance of these warships. Say you have a budget to illuminate a room using electric lights, you have to compromise between the size of the room, and how much power you want to use to illuminate it. In a small room, you could use a much smaller amount of power to do a better job than trying to illuminate a stadium with what you would use to read by in a bedroom. The D'Deridex would suffer from this in two ways, one would be cloaking, the other defensive shields. More surface area a ship has proportional to volume, the less efficiency, and probably a explanation as to how the Klingon ships are more stealthy. The Original series Romulan ships would be vastly better to use due to their surface area characteristics. This would make them stealthier than their modern day counterparts assuming similar technologies. Why Star Trek phased these ships out and kept the Klingon Bird of Prey and the Federation Miranda class interests me. Guess they thought the Romulan Bird of Prey was less cool somehow without the Pontiac "Screaming Chicken" paint scheme!
Well, starfleet ship design is clearly to build a ship around it's warp engine.
Thus I suspect warp physics is well ahead of shielding or the like when it comes to ship design priorities unless you're a particularly aggressive race (eg. Klingons - but even Klingon ship design appears to obey design elements that are optimised for warp travel over pure defense.)
It really seemed to me in TNG: The Neutral Zone, the D'deridex when it decloaked seriously DWARFED the Enterprise D - a lot of people say - oh its empty space between the two hulls, but even the warbirds head is almost the size of the Galaxy class saucer section, and each upper and lower hull section of the hull alone seems to be more massive than the entirety of the enterprise. I've always gone with the 1200 to 1300 meter size in my head canon.
Beige and brown added in for flair👍😂
I always loved romulan warbirds, so awesome :D
They are one of two ships that would make me crap my pants in trek the other being a borg cube.
While it was always described as rather powerful, it almost never seemed to live up to it's apparent power.
I don't recall any spectacular feats from them anyway. They barely ever fired a shot on screen really....
I will say I always felt they were roughly equal to the Galaxy class though (That was my impression from how the cew reacted to them anyway)
That has always been one of my gripes about Trek, a lot of stuff which should be very powered and such(like the D'Deridex) never really gets to shine on screen. Now we don't need some big action epics but it really is a big let down looking back at it. Even in DS9 they don't get to shine(I mostly blame plot armor on that).
My personal headcanon is that the D'Deridex was supposed to be bigger and far more powerful than the Galaxy glass, but teething problems with the new forced singularity drive meant that it never got to the projected power levels.
Kind of like Germany during World War II - technology ahead of their time, but a bit too far ahead to be effective and reliable with the technical limitations of the time. The D'Deridex was supposed to be a MASSIVE step forward, but wound up being roughly the equivalent to the Galaxy.
They Romulans don't flex their power because that isn't their way. They have always been overly careful and always pulled their punches. I have always suspected that this restraint is a cultural expectation. Remember, they are the off shoot Vulcans, and the Vulcans had to resort to logic to save themselves. What restraints did the the Romulans develop?
Yeah, we never got to see a Ddex do much other than die and rarely shoot on screen because budget (?). I think we saw more from the Valdore class and they were almost a joke with their pea shooting cannons (as evidenced against the Scimitar). Romulans got hosed in the special effects department -- they spent their allowance on the thelaron radiation visuals, LOL.
Hell, the Son'a were more intimidating than the Romulans because they used weapons so stupid nobody risked them.
Ddex had an on board black hole generator which somehow should have given their ship some special capability no other ships had. Perhaps Romulans should have had the phaze cloak and not just any normal cloak which would explain why their cloaks are so "touchy" to maintain.
I think the threat if the d'deridex was more of a political one than one of firepower. There is no doubt that the galaxy and d'deridex are both powerful ships but in a prolonged battle ill put my money on the d'deridex
Yassss. Iv voted for this soo many times
pauric maxwell Right? Me too!
love the ship. with regard to how powerful it is, it is worth bearing in mind how we see it perform in the dominion war... not well, the ship was too large and ungainly to properly engage jemhadar fighter, and wasn't robust enough to repel their cruisers. i think it probably could destroy a galaxy class, though against high tech warships like the sovereign and Negh'var it would likely struggle. bear in mind its age, and the fact that it is not specifically a warship, but a multi role power projection vessel.
I think that there is a lot of rock-paper-scissors when it comes to who can beat whom. This vessel may very well have done a good job at taking on similar capital ships, but never intended to take on the small-ship swarm tactics used by the Dominion. The same could be said of the Galaxy class, as they also seemed to have a problem in that area.
i agree it was very much a ship of its period where the B'rel bird of prey, has fallen out of use, and the defiant and other such ships are very much a way off. even in late TNG and early DS9 we see Maquis raiders swarming a Galor successfully, suggesting it was a common problem across the alpha quadrant.
I always kind of wondered why we never saw an aircraft carrier in Star Trek. Imagine something the size of a D'Deridex, with some of the hollow space filled in, launching 20 or so smaller ships. Each of those smaller ships being about 20% larger than the Delta Flyer.
if you've seen the original Sketches made by Andrew Probert you can see that the bottom section is properly filled in, in the on screen version you can see the two shuttlebays which effectively go to nothing. so its likely that it was the original intention. there is of course a controversy around fighters and how effective they are anyway.
Well, we have seen fighters in Star Trek. Even a couple photon torpedoes per fighter is a serious threat, especially against smaller ships.
Epic vid. Love this ship. Can you do one on the Valdore please?
I intend to..yea
This was awesome!
The D'deridex is my favorite vessel outside Starfleet as well, it's just something about it that I love the look of. Very sleek and beautiful! Thanks Lore
When dealing with the Romulans, it's not so much that the Enterprise would be too outmatched by a Warbird. The Warbird is described as roughly equal to the Enterprise D. far more than the simple tactical encounter (which the Romulans always back down from, by the way), the primary concern of Picard is re-awakening hostilities on a strategic or political level between the Federation and Romulan Star Empire. Remember, Picard is described as more of a diplomat than a warrior. He is always looking at the bigger picture.
I know in Star Trek Armada 2 you could go into the game files and edit how strong a ship was, how fast it regenerated shields etc... and while I know it was just a game so it had to be balanced the D'deridex class was in fact pretty similarly equipped and strengthed compared to the Galaxy class.
I love D'Deridex
For sure my favorite non-Starfleet ship! With ya there man. Would love to have a model!!
An absolutely gorgeous ship
Regarding Romulan power systems:
I always assumed that the Military ships utilized the "Forced Quantum Singularity", and that the Civilian ships used conventional Matter/Antimatter power systems.
Well we know the warbird was slower unless driven to the point it'd explode so maybe it was a resource thing (A shortage maybe). Less dilithium/deuterium needed equals more ships but not as fast as those with traditional warp cores. On terms of threat, I always thought it was the Romulan equivalent to the Galaxy class and that line in the Neutral Zone referred to their ability to launch a sneak attack on the unaware Enterprise.
On the Galaxy Class versus D'Deridex Class debate...
I'd think that both ships are probably well balanced and that neither is truly heads and shoulders above the other. As the fact that the episode "the Defector" did have two D'Deridex class ships back down would be indicative of the Romulan ship not being so powerful that a Galaxy Class couldn't contend with it... but the fact that it was treated with respect and as a threat by Picard in TNG would also show that it isn't anything to be sneezed at either... Each class would have advantages over the other in certain areas and any potential battle would depend on how those advantages are used and disadvantages avoided...
Federation was formed because romulans where a threat. No one faction from the united federation of planets could take Romulans by themselves. Romulans should be way ahead like Vulcan's were to humans.
deadlyNytshayd - But in pure theory the formation of the Federation well predates the introduction of either the Galaxy Class with Starfleet and the D'Deridex with the Romulans. Even the Romulans were "ahead of the Vulcans," which I'm not sure would be accurate since the Romulans are supposed to be a splinter group that were expelled from Vulcan, at that time, that DOESN'T mean it's going to stay that way forever. Forces would generally go back and forth as their forces develop and then respond to the other side's developments.
There would also be the possibility that with regards to the Federation as a whole... that it is greater than the sum of its parts and that they all mesh together very well to make a powerful faction that is stronger than its component states would be otherwise.
@@SamuelJamesNary well the back in the 2360's I would say even by the omission of Captain Picard that the Romulan Warbird would win in a stand up fight because of the inept defensive posture of the Federation back in that era. However during and post Dominion war I would say after that the they evenly matched with the Galaxy Class may have a slight speed advantage at warp or in Sublight.
Yes! About time..lol All Hail the mighty Romulan Star Empire! How are you supposed to have a Star Empire without a little torture??