Fouls in sports have TONS of subjectivity and that’s why players rarely go against a call which benefits them. Athletes get unfairly fucked by refs all the time. Plus it’s a team game - a player holding during a touchdown play might have not even been a deciding factor in the success or failure of a td. Multiple infractions are happening in every play. Magic has ZERO subjectivity and is a 1v1 format. In chess if an opponent notices you made an illegal move, even if they’re TEN turns late to noticing, the move is undone. Magic Should be similar
For the tournament controversy, I think the judge was in the wrong. Not because they were incorrect about what the tournament rules said they could do about the board state at the time they were called. The judge was wrong because the penalty that should have been applied was for cheating. This was in turns, the only time in a match were the clock is a non-issue. Changing your pace of play to play sloppy and fast during turns such that you gain a game winning advantage by playing illegally is cheating. Given that the fix was available to the player (even if it was not available to the judge), their failure to rectify it confirms they are a cheater.
@@JohnSmith-hs9ezthis is case 9,999 of a woman with a beard getting a bs judge call in their favor. And that is from what iv heard is true, this Nicole is trans and has a beard. The main magic sub reddit just deletes those posts that make it clear.
Right? People have gotten a game loss for similar reasons and irreparable game states, but "hidden knowledge " of what is in your opponents hand is not irreparable game state.
That's what has me confused. I'm primarily a yugioh player who's recently started playing magic standard and under konami policy this probably would've just resulted in tapping the untapped land or a game loss for creating an irreparable game state where you've given yourself an advantage. I don't know how it works in magic but in yugioh intent is only considered for cheating penalties specifically, but you can still get upgraded to game or match losses for repeated or particularly severe gameplay errors. Especially if we're talking about in the same match.
You need to be careful with how you punish irreparable mistakes because otherwise people will try to actively provoke them to get easy wins. For example: actively waiting until the game has gone too far before pointing out a mistake. This means that in some cases your rulings will be too lenient because giving out losses too easily is just a huge can of worms.
The football analogy fails because, unlike in most other games or situations, here it is entirely possible for the player to make things legal. If a ref makes a bad call in football, even if you were inclined to do the "right thing" and harm your team, you're still in a different game and different situation. But here, as Crim pointed out, you can be absolutely certain that the mana was miscounted and fix it by just tapping the land, making things exactly as they were/should be. The better analogy here would be if you found someone's wallet, and a cop said to you, "well, i cant force you to give it back."
That's a great analogy... because the cop literally can do that. They chose not to. Just like the judge in this case. Both the cop and judge have an active duty to do the thing, and chose not to despite it being the only reason they're there.
Not a big deal, but in the last month I've heard Crim say 'toeing the line' like 4 times and it's been used incorrectly every time. Hemeans it like 'dipping your toes' ie; experimenting. Toeing the lineis exactly the opposite of that. Glad he's safe!
"Toeing the line" means experimenting to see what unethical behaviors you can get away with. Basically just seeing how evil you can be before people call you out on it.
@@dontmisunderstand6041 bro why are you making shit up? The literal definition of the saying is "to do what you are expected to do without causing trouble for anyone. Example: If you want to get ahead, you'd better learn to toe the line."
Kinda telling that we have had discussions about "soft cheating" and yet, the attitude of "if the judge signs off on a misplay in your favor, work it" is precisely the gaming culture that allows sft cheating to continue.
I feel like a lot of people either didn’t watch or forgot about the children’s tv shows/cartoons/anime that involved sports where the protagonist is faced with an opportunity to cheat/get an unfair advantage, but decides not to because “it’s the right thing to do.”
You see this in a LOT of society. Brian hits you? If you speak up, the school will punish you for partaking in violence (even as the victim). Brian steals your food at the office? If you speak up, HR will punish you for creating a hostile work environment. Brian calls you a fat, ugly slob? If you speak up, family and friends will shame you for ruining dinner. Why would you expect anything different in a game?
There is no way it wasn't done intentionally.. The OP and several witnesses noticed the extreme shift in play pace/style/mannerisms from the cheater right as this happened. They clearly saw they were 1 short of the winning line and played in a way to distract/manipulate their opponent. A warning isn't a penalty when the wronged player isn't given any thing in return.. That yellow card comes with a free-kick.. Getting a warning means nothing if your wrongly gained advantage stands.
On the cheating front I have an example of how i prefer things handled from another tabletop game. Warhammer. Each army of models has their own suite of abilities and rules. A famous pro player misplayed a rule very slightly, he noticed in round 3 or 4 out of 8. He informed the judge and "didnt affect the outcome" but he conceded his current round and dropped, giving all his opponents 100 points because "I wouldnt feel right knowing I had cheated, however small or minor the infraction "
Nah, I'm not with Richard at all on tournament decision. His analogy is not great either. This isn't a team sport, it's a 1v1 game in which your decision to take or not take the win off a mistake is entirely affecting you. Crim and Seth showing integrity while Richard is like "the judge said it is okay, i get to win off a mistake in my favor."
In magic what the head judge says goes. It says in tournament policy that you literally cannot disagree with the head judge. Even if cheating was allowed, that's the rules.
@@midnalight6419 Legality vs Morality. You're saying this behavior is legal. He/They/We are saying this behavior is immoral. For a really long time, owning other human beings was legal. But it was never moral. Even if these types of cheats are 'legal' - that doesn't make them okay. If the rules allow this type of behavior, the rules need to change too.
@midnalight6419 I am not disagreeing with the sentiment that what the judge decides is technically the end all be all of how that situation plays out. I am disagreeing with what the judge ultimately decided and believe the player should have conceded the match after the judge allowed him to move forward with a mistake he made that literally won him the game.
Why would you concede? If player A wasn't cheating, and judge says it's fine. I even go so far that there's nothing morally wrong with it. Mistakes happen and no one caught it and the judgr decided. This isn't some grand demonstration of morality. The right thing to do isn't to concede a game you were not dead to on board for something that is fault shared by both players.
Bro it is not that deep. This is not slavery. This random player taking a win from a mistake is far better than being called a cheater and ousted forever. Ever heard of "better a guilty man go free than an innocent jailed" If we're going to argue morality, I prefer this outcome.
I feel like the problem with tutors is the same problem people have with non-singleton formats: it makes every game feel the same. Usually, if you have tutors in your deck is to find the wincon of the deck, so your entire strategy revolves around trying to do that same thing in every single game you play (which you could call your deck being consistent). People think it strips the game of its fun premise, that every game should feel different because you have 100-ish different card in your deck. It goes the same with 60 card non-singleton formats, 'cause you don't have a real "60 card deck", you have a "10 card (x4 copies each) deck with 20 lands" and a lot of people think it takes the fun out of the game making every game feel the same, where the same things happen just in a (maybe) different order.
The enemy of every card game is consistency. Players like it, but it's BAD for the game's health. That's the reason why Magic has the mana system in the first place, because it's necessary to reduce the consistency of decks, which is in turn necessary for game balance purposes. Tutors fundamentally destroy game balance by artificially inflating the consistency of a deck.
@@Shimatzu95 Yeah, hard to take Crim seriously concerning efforts to keep flavor/lore intact for cards when he's consistently had nothing but open arms for whatever anime or universes beyond cards that WotC vomits out. Smothering Tithe comes to mind as a specific example of a card with anime art that made no sense, but Crim was all for it.
in crim defense UB/Anime art fine if they alternatives in the set but wizards have been making anime only version of cards the last few sets that I'm not really a fan of they could of at least made a Tree of Perdition non anime version in Innistrad Remastered, UB they can do w/e I'm way past the point of caring about that
The "my idea of ethics might be different from a pro player's because of the biases they have" argument doesn't work, because changing your own sense of right and wrong based solely on the personal benefit to yourself from doing so IS UNETHICAL. That's LITERALLY why we see cheating as a bad thing in the first place.
Referring to the cheating allegations: if pros were expected to play as Richard is saying, then I assume tournaments would go forever because the correct way to play is to call out every possible "mistake" to a judge. I think game state should have just reflected the tapped mana. That should be a rule if its not
Just like Richard pointed out BOTH players get a strike. There is no reason for me to call a judge when I will get punished for my opponent making a mistake. I have been playing 30 years of tournaments. I have seen more judge calls go wrong than the ones that go right. Never call a judge unless it is a game loss mistake.
I think the best sport analogy to the "free mana" thing is cricket. In cricket, an umpire (judge) can rule a batsman not out but if the batter knows what was done was actually enough for them to be out, they can walk off and they are out. A batsman named Adam Gilchrist walked in the semi final of a cricket world cup (which is almost the biggest stage in world cricket) and his team mates were not happy and I am sure a lot of fans weren't either but he went on to be probably the greatest ever player in his position and is still remembered for that one action. And it would have been perfectly acceptable for him to have stayed on the field but he did what he thought to be best in that moment. You also see a lot of it in other sports like soccer where referees give penalty shots when the attacking team knows it wasn't a penalty, so they don't take the kick properly. I personally think it's gross to take the advantage.
Also, Australia went on to win that match and the tournament. So Gilchrist got to be remembered for the most sportsmanlike play in cricket and win the World Cup.
@@TheEvolver311 It put them in a bad position at the time but they won. The analogy is cricket, that was just an example, the analogy (that seemed to go over your head) is that in cricket, the umpire (judge in magic) can make a decision and it's perfectly fine to accept their decision and keep playing OR not accept their ruling, play as if the mistake had been made and accept the consequences of your mistake.
@@delailama736 the problem is both players played on ok with the error, the play of Seek the Beast had been made it wasn't as if it was caught by either player. Your analogy still doesn't stand it would be if the player cheated, got accused and accepted it on the spot this has nothing to do with some honor system self policing nonsense
@TheEvolver311 It really does. If you make a mistake that can easily be rectified by you and instead capitalize on that mistake because it's within the rules, you are a grub and as good as a cheater. Crim has the right idea. Admit the mistake and play as if it had played out correctly.
This year for Christmas, my sister got me several "bulk" boxes of cards. She got them from her real estate agent, whose son got them from a family friend and never played... TLDR; not duals, and I've only received 1 of the 5 boxes, but there was an $140 intuition and a number of $10+ old cards from 6th-8th edition. Felt like a gold mine for what could have been literal bulk.
I think Richard's take on the Judge Call situation is a solid L take. You're getting a chance to right a wrong and you're just going to take advantage of it and not own up to your mistake? Nah. If it was me, I would take the loss / loss of mana.
I think the difference of sports vs magic cheating is that in sports, everyone is watching, if a penalty happens it usually gets caught immediately. In magic, you could gain an edge secretly far easier
I think another difference is, in sports judges give wrong rulings because they've missed something. E.g. they didn't see a foul or they didn't see the intentional dive or they missed the offside etc. Here the "wrong ruling" is given in response to a gameplay error, that has been caught. And it's advantaging the player who made the mistake, intentional or not. Please don't encourage behavior, where you can wiggle out of it by saying "oh, it's an honest mistake". It's a competitive game so punish mistakes, honest or not. E.g. in football/soccer if someone scores a goal but it was offside, the referee WILL disallow a goal if it turns out it's been offside. The only reason video evidence in sports isn't popular with every is for BS excuses like "it disrupts the flow/people don't know whether to cheer or not" but otherwise people WANT clear enforcement of the rules.
37:10 huge respect for Seth for saying that. And to Richard's response I would say, the other also player's livelihood is also a consideration in this case... its clear that you unfairly prioritize yourself to the point that you would take advantage of such a situation to get yourself ahead. Its not about fake internet points, its about compassion.
had to be another engagement farming practice from Richard. The sports analogy didn't even make sense, taking a "free mana" is cheating for anyone with integrity lol
@@TheQSwizzle Crim has an incredible attitude. Like he's the sweatiest player ever, playing the meanest cards ever and laughing his ass off about Opposition Agent-ing your attempt to crack a fetch. I could never be that mean in casual games. BUT he's drawing a hard line in the sand when it comes to owning up to your mistakes and not just accepting bad rulings in your favor, because whatever reasons Richard came up with. Professional sports players being scummy to get ahead in the game is not some moral defense. Big Kudos to Crim
Regarding Roadside finds: an old friend of mine found a streetside box of water worn magic cards. He didn't play anymore but knew I did so he passed them my way. All of it was well worn, but Wooded Foothills and Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx were jewels among the bulk. Lots of folks don't know what these dorky cards are worth and are just trying to clear their basements. Obvi yall's referenced find is maximal and truly mythic, but I love Richard's take on the odds about it.
In the most absolute technical sense, there are decisions that were made because of the misplay that could have gone differently if the game was in the correct state, which is why the judge’s call was that they couldn’t rewind. From a sportsmanship, or an ethical position, 100% agree the correct call is to tap the land and lose the mana and make as much of an adjustment as possible to reverse the mistake, even if that means losing the game.
Because seths tldr was incorrect, He had cast seek the beast and resolved it, So he had the information of the card he drew, 2 cards in exile from seek the beast and the scrollshift in his opponents hand. How much mana is that worth? He also didn't catch the missed tap land it was his friend from the outside.
Okay, according to Richard’s own words as the opponent if you don’t catch they that they cast a spell for free, it’s on you. Please make him eat those words on commander clash
5:12 IDK, if I was ever going to pick a single white card that I considered deserving a horror movie representation, it would 10/10 be that absolute dice nightmare Cathar's Crusade.
There's too much mind reading going on, and mind reading doesn't exist. You can't know a person's intent unless they physically tell you. In this instance the judge made a call, that's the correct call as per the rules, you take the win. There is no controversy here except people's feelings on the matter with a lot of dropped context, which is to be disregarded as purely irrational.
'It's not for constructed play. It's not for Commander players. Who is it for?' - Limited players, Richard, limited players. It's a draft set. I do agree it's too expensive for what you're getting but the audience it's intended for is clear.
These sets are tough to draft due to cost. In reality they are reprint sets for commander and modern players but this set misses those players. So it misses everyone for being too expensive and not having many good reprints
I mean, thats why certain commons are chosen, is to build out some kind of limited environment, but no, I don't think this set will be heavily drafted, and I don't think thats how Wizards thinks its selling these packs.
1. It's clearly intentional. In a matchup that's clearly determined by a single pump spell or 1 point of extra damage, there's no way a player tanks then skips through the steps without knowing what they're doing. 2. If it's truly unintentional, then why would you accept that you won by effectively cheating? Even if it's unintentional cheating, by accepting, it's more likely you intended to cheat. Remember Bertocini said, "I cheat because I can get away with it". Just because you can get away with it doesn't mean it's not cheating. 3. In sports, they do run it back when you get an unfair advantage. In soccer, if one team stops playing and the other team scores a goal because they weren't aware of an injury, then they usually let the team score one back.
In the NFL, after cheating occurs all advantages gained from that cheating are reversed AND a penalty is added on top of that. This principle is the fundamental commonality behind every penalty in the game.
i dont know how to say but ... i feel richard rly has a problem with good sportmanship xD people DO that in real sport when EXTREMLY EVERYTHING is on the line in german soccer we had in the 1st league on games who could decide the championship a player get a free kick and going to the ref saying he stumbled and wasnt fouled so the ref reversed his decicion and no free kick we even had international games in importent qualifiers where nations played vs each other where a team got a goal that wasnt fair "the good sportmanship move was tgo play them the ball back but hte player with the ball didnt understood and scored a goal" after new kickoff the ENTIRE TEAM of the other nation stepped aside and let the enemy player run over the whole field free and score the equalizer because .. THATS FAIR. dude it happens all the time in real sport ... its just there are also people who have bad sportmanship like maradonna who fake and cheat and enjoy it but its not everyone
its a classic prisoner's dilemma, and Richard is falling for it. The more we all show good sportsmanship, the more everyone benefits. Those who angle shoot and take every advantage at the expense of others will get ahead at the expense of others: BUT, the more people that do this, the worse it gets for everyone. Richard is saying "other people do this, we should do this too" and that's bad for everyone in the long run.
@@bremtreaty2469 which is very fitting, cause Richard literally plays Commander Clash like this. Always banking on the others to take care of threats so he can sit back and enjoy the removal without investing anything. He gets ahead at the expanse of the other player(s) and even preaches that this is the best way to play EDH, without understanding that if everyone at the table did this, it would result in terrible gameplay.
@ Cavern was just reprinted in Ixalan. Trouble in Pairs happened on Ravnica and also within the last year. There aren’t any “conquistadors” on Innistrad. This is an Innistrad set. Parallel Lives, absolutely, but none of those others make sense for the plane or for timing
I’m tapping the mana as soon as it’s brought to my attention, but I’ve never been a cheater. The apology on socials after wards also sounded more like they were sorry they got caught 🤷🏻♂️
51:50 I have a set of lightning bolts with holes punched in them because the owner learned to play in jail and they had to punch all their cards to prove they were cards. People bring anything to try to sell.
Whether it's for draft or not, this set really is a case of "you did this to yourselves". OG innistrad block had so much value in it but years of power creep made this set Bulk Remastered featuring cards you won't open because they're more rare than good decisions by Hasbro
I think that something you miss in your analysis of the pro tour judging is that it got to the point where the judge was called. This is absolutely an angle shoot ---the argument is not that the land shouldn't have been tapped, but that by the time the other player noticed it, too many phases had passed. Calling a judge over in this situation, rather than just tapping the land, is an angle shoot. It isn't cheating, perhaps, but it sucks for the other guy.
@cablefeed3738 I'm not really looking to castigate people. Rather, I want to see problems correctly diagnosed so that they can be treated. To accuse someone of cheating is to suggest that you know their intent. Cheating requires a mens rea. You can't really punish someone for cheating if you can't show that their actions were intentional. Angle shooting, on the other hand, is a *behavior*, and can be observed without knowing the intent of the actor. It is one thing to make a mistake, but another entirely to abuse the rules to punish your opponent for not immediately seeing that mistake in a high stress setting. People who repeatedly engage in angle shooting really ought to be sanctioned.
@alexanderhenderson5583 i'm not saying this person is a cheater. I'm saying, if someone tries to angle shoot, I consider that cheating. And it's not really angle shooting, if you're not trying to do it.
@alexanderhenderson5583 you can't say its an angle shoot because you lack knowledge of it being a behavior. So you kinda just swapped out cheater for angle shoot.
You guys were curious what tribal deck might stand to gain from Lifecraft Engine and who uses a lot of artifacts. I think I have one answer: Pirates. Not exactly a mega powerful tribe, but they have lots of in flavour vehicles, use them a lot, they have relevant abilities, and this would help to turn all the ships into pirates as well.
Also merfolks with deeproot pilgrimage. I played a deck with subterranean schooner as a vehicule. Lifecraft engine might be better even though it's 1 more mana. Sill a fringe deck though
Cheaters take advantage of society's indulgence. Saying things like "we cant judge intent" us exactly what they bank on. Its our job as a society to call that out and not let a cheater off the hook. If someone didnt pay mana for their Hopeless Nightmare, then passed and cast scrollshift on my draw step, I'd make them put it back in their hand, reverse the life loss/discard, and take back the scrollshift lol.
It's not true that in professional sports that players never do the honourable thing in spite of the ref. It happens all the time. In cricket for example a batsman will sometimes "walk" even though the umpire gave them not out.
I took notes from Richard and now I land ramp so hard in my Izzet deck. My playgroup is impressed by the fact that my land count is on par with the green decks at the table! Thanks Richard!!
Hey Richard, do I have to call over a referee when someone is holding in football? That is where your argument about penalty vs cheating fails. In a magic tournament, are there multiple judges monitoring each individual game? Because a large portion of regulation is on the players and not a third party, it becomes very unclear as to which should be which, penalties or cheating.
Just a thought here. Stop comparing magic to football. Completely different kind of penalties. Compare it to chess. You make a illegal move is chess you are disqualified same as in magic (some times but think it's a better comparison)
@@fredouellet3160 This will 100% see play in magda lol, it’s basically an artifact version of Bloodboiler which is also a banner (unless Karn is on the board or something)
Would love to draft the remastered set if it was normal price . But will have to settle for buying some singles . Also the not tapping mana is for sure cheating when you get called on it and don’t then tap it down
I think the issue between magic and other sports is the variance or chance versus pure skill. That's why it's a penalty in other sports and cheating in magic.
@traviscochran9253 like for example the discussion about non-innistrad cards in IR. I felt like there was a conversation there that we didn't have because no one cared.
Richards comparison to sports doesnt make sense because in most sports there is a warning but also an actual penalty like 5 yard penalty, a free throw or a poweplay. In MTG there are only game losses or match losses which are huge penalties in comparison. Someone might get a warning and a mark on their record, but the person who they cheated against is still stuck having lost their match.
You never take an unfair advantage even if its a mistake. The sports analogy isnt accurate - in golf players call penalties on themselves all the time because its a game where not all players are constantly watched. In order to be fair games have to be self-policing.
@@jerryhikel7826 I promise you professional basketball players and football players are not “self-policing” themselves if they know they fouled someone but the the refs don’t see/call it
Nah, you just take the L man. Admit your honest mistake and claim it as such, otherwise you're accepting mana unfairly and your 'intent' is to cheat with that mana... I don't like all these analogies talking around this actual story of cheating and trying to convince us this is okay.
Horrible take from Richard, dude should have just tapped the mana and there was no need to reverse plays, why even call the judge if it was an honest mistake? Clear angle shooting scummy behavior.
It's not so much that you have to scoop to the judge call, it's whether you are okay with winning a game you know you should have lost if it was played properly.
Even then I think "eat this up" is over selling it. I don't think thats true, I think it would sell less then bloomburrow or MH3, even at standard pricing.
About the found card collection: When I was moving to another town after living 30 years in one place, I found my old pokemon collection from 1st edition. I had no idea old pokemon cards could have any value so I trew then away. THE NEXT DAY someone asks on facebook on some boardgame group about first edition charmanders which I had like 4 of, so I checked how much are they. My god I was angry. Sure they were nowhere near mint condition but still I must have threw away a lot of money. I still think about it after few years and it hurts.
Finding other people's discarded card collections is the perfect embodiment of the saying "One man's trash is another man's treasure". I'm pretty sure that one is about trading cards! 😂
I don’t watch a ton a professional sports but isn’t the way pro athletes try to push the limits of the rules and eke out shady advantages one of the worst parts of the game. It doesn’t seem like a good example to follow.
33:20 A similar thing happened to me at a pre-release. I cast a 5 drop creature even though I didn't have the color required for it (I had like all the colors except for one) but we both didn't notice until 3 turns later, so when we called a judge the ruling was exactly this: too much time has passed to reverse and both players failed to notice. So the ruling was basically in my favor (the player cheating on mana). I was allowed to keep my 5 drop in play and it's what won me the game. I have never felt so bad in my life lol! I wasn't trying to cheat but I mean that was the official ruling. I was practically begging the judge to punish me, give me a warning or something but they judged that I didn't do anything wrong essentially since my opponent also failed at noticing. It's such a weird rule.
Yeah I'm with Richard, accept the referee's call. If it's a controversial call or a bad one, that's his problem not yours. 😂 You didn't write the rules and you didn't make the call. I don't see why people would get angry at the player. I mean you'd only be angry if they cheated intentionally. But in such a case you have to give the benefit of doubt. Unless it's a repeat offender.
Because it's easy for the player to fix it, just tap the land. You are obliged to obey the judge's ruling, but there is nothing stopping you from tapping a land and not using the mana. Also, the player who won, apologized for their behavior, so it seems not everyone agrees with you.
@fredouellet3160 Yeah but like, unlike most people I don't care what Twitter or Reddit thinks. 🤣 Because why should anyone. They're irrelevant and mentally dysfunctional creatures. Not good reason to give them power over you. Just ignore those whack/unintelligent people and your life will improve.
Years ago, a guy I knew from my LGS who was a dumpster diver found a complete set of collector edition boxes up next to a dumpster. It is possible, but this collection seems pretty nice. The condition of the cards my buddy found were a little rough
I have a friend I play cedh with. But if he puts a card he can legally tutor for in his hand face down that he is suppossed to put in the battlefield, I'll either gently move the card away from the other face down cards or remind him to have it seperated. It's not about who's cheating. It's just about maintaining a clean environment.
Chaotic Evil. Lawful Evil means they respect rules and codes. Richard's take inherently says "rules only matter when they benefit me". That's not Lawful, it's Chaotic. Lawful Evil binds itself to the same rules it binds everyone else to. And Richard's take fundamentally does not do that, it suggests that you never let rules get in the way of getting what you want.
@@dontmisunderstand6041no he is assuming the person made a mistake and didn't cheat because we cannot know if they actually cheated. You are assuming the opposite
@@dontmisunderstand6041 He honored bad ruling by a judge, a literal authority. It’s lawful evil by definition. Not chaotic. He literally reiterates this exact point here. 39:25. That’s definitively lawful evil “If it’s a shady call, you accept it anyway”. That’s not chaotic. A crony capitalist leveraging legalities to make more money is lawful evil. They’re following the evil law.
It wasn't discussed in the episode but Questing Beast's adventure doesn't "draw" cards it exiles them exposing information. If you rewind the player who tapped incorrectly now knows the next 2 cards of their opponents library. Maybe there is a better way to handle this but I can see why the came couldn't be rewound
There are two types of land tutors. Mana fixing land tutors and toolbox land tutors. If you cast a Rampant Growth you are mana fixing. If you are Sylvan Scrying for an Arena of Glory to give a creature haste, you are casting Demonic Tutor in spirit.
I wanted to see more cards like Eruth, tormented prophet and Lier in the black and white. Eruth is one of my favorite pieces of art and I'm afraid we will never see those treatments again.
Its cheating. They knew what they were doing. You have 6 mana, played a sorcery speed spell without paying the mana cost and played fast hoping OP wouldnt notice. And he didn't. If this is how judges rule things next can i use 3 bolts quickly with 2 mana. Since it moved too far game resumes as is. "Oh i was nervous so i casted my spells really fast. "
Competitive rel can be rough but if you want to preserve the integrity of the game you do the right thing weather it disadvantages you or not,.just tap the correct mana on your own and take the L
On the Lifecraft Engine, if you pick elf and have something that say when a elf enters.... then would crewing a vehicle and it becoming and elf trigger it? Because it makes vehicle creatures a certain type but they're not a creature until they're crewed.
@@Neowurm No. The vehicle doesn't enter the battlefield when it is crewed, it just gains a type. Indeed, it is kind of a non-bo with respect to ETB triggers, since vehicles don't enter with a creature type.
@27:00 Why doesn't wizards split the difference with Secret Lairs? They could do just one limited printing of the Foil drops to get that FOMO they want AND just print the normal versions to order once the normal printings sell out.
The secret lair test would be neat, but I feel the bigger WPN store would just shadow the local mom and pop stores. So if you compare my small towns game store compared to the Dallad Ft Worth area, I'd have to travel to Dallas to get the Secret Lair product. When online all I'd have to do is click a button online to get it shipped to my house
in commander at home, didnt oliva told their story how she and brian got a huge part of their collection becuase they stumbled in a small shop with a big box of magic cards filled to the rim with smaller boxes of cards and she asked how much and was told 50 bucks for the box, and then after thinking if its worth was told they meant the ENTIRE box everything for 50 ? like stuff like that happens xD
@@JamesCooley-q8b This is the same guy that week in and week out intentionally durdles every game until his opponents wipe themselves out and combos off. He will do literally anything to win. This stance isn't shocking at all.
@ Richard 44:14 it's because of Mike Long & Mark Justice and the early years of Magic. Christopher Pikula changed the culture because we got tired of every player trying to cheat or just pull one over on the judges. Let other sports expect less of their players. I prefer we be a better place than that. I'd highly recommend you check out the star city games article "Cheating At The Magic World Championship" by Patrick Chapin to learn more.
Obscure magic judging rules and apples to oranges sports analogies aside, the soul of magic is casting spells with mana. If we ignore this, what are we even doing? Playing Yu-Gi-Oh?
To Yugioh's credit, if you pulled a stunt like this in Yugioh you get an automatic game or match loss and a potential suspension from organized play too. An illegal play that creates an irreparable game state, as the judge determined was the case in this match, in Yugioh results in an automatic game loss for the player who made the illegal move. And that's if it was determined to be accidental. If it was determined to be intentional, it becomes Unsporting Conduct - Cheating, which is treated equally as severely as PHYSICALLY ASSAULTING THE OPPONENT.
@@TheEvolver311No, it's the official fix when the literal rules of the game have not been followed! Also, if the judge deemed it was a cheat (or a probable cheat) he would have disqualified the cheater...
39:20 it’s a good point by Richard but in all sports there is also the concept of good sportsmanship which is not just a joke but part of the essence of any sport.
Nah I have integrity so if I fuck up I'd own it whether it cost me the game or not. It wouldn't have even needed to come to a judge call. Sure maybe that's not 'up to the standards' of other sports but it's the world I'd rather live in.
Could you imagine penalties in magic being called like an American Football penalty?? "Player 1, Mana not tapped correctly, 5 life penalty" "Player 2, overdrawn, 2 Card penalty"
Fouls in sports have TONS of subjectivity and that’s why players rarely go against a call which benefits them. Athletes get unfairly fucked by refs all the time. Plus it’s a team game - a player holding during a touchdown play might have not even been a deciding factor in the success or failure of a td. Multiple infractions are happening in every play.
Magic has ZERO subjectivity and is a 1v1 format. In chess if an opponent notices you made an illegal move, even if they’re TEN turns late to noticing, the move is undone. Magic Should be similar
Exactly this! It‘s always these apples to oranges comparisons that don‘t help at all.
Chess has no hidden information, it is quite different from Magic.
HAPPY 10th ANNIVERSARY FISH CAST!
Seeing their faces makes the cast so much better IMO
This might sound like a meme but the real solution is a Secret Lair Remastered set. Random boosters so you can't scalp with reprints in universe.
Fully agreed. They just need to make a normal "remastered set" where they all the universe beyond mechanical uniques cards as within universe cards.
For the tournament controversy, I think the judge was in the wrong. Not because they were incorrect about what the tournament rules said they could do about the board state at the time they were called. The judge was wrong because the penalty that should have been applied was for cheating. This was in turns, the only time in a match were the clock is a non-issue. Changing your pace of play to play sloppy and fast during turns such that you gain a game winning advantage by playing illegally is cheating. Given that the fix was available to the player (even if it was not available to the judge), their failure to rectify it confirms they are a cheater.
The judge did a full investigation into if Nicole was cheating and they found that she wasn't.
@@JohnSmith-hs9ezthis is case 9,999 of a woman with a beard getting a bs judge call in their favor. And that is from what iv heard is true, this Nicole is trans and has a beard. The main magic sub reddit just deletes those posts that make it clear.
Idk man, if I'm in turns and holding up an entire tournament, I'd try and speed up what I'm doing
@@JohnSmith-hs9ez It's an honest mistake but I'll keep that land untapped, thanks! 💀
@@crashking9930it's also when you're more likely to make mistakes because you're tired and don't have to pay as much attention as in the early turns.
I just dont see why the ruling was "weve gone too far, it is what it is" and not an immediate "you didnt tap land, game loss."
Right? People have gotten a game loss for similar reasons and irreparable game states, but "hidden knowledge " of what is in your opponents hand is not irreparable game state.
The other player played the Speak the Beast half of Questing Druid already in response to the error/cheat
Because a game play error - rule violations give a warning not a game loss.
That's what has me confused. I'm primarily a yugioh player who's recently started playing magic standard and under konami policy this probably would've just resulted in tapping the untapped land or a game loss for creating an irreparable game state where you've given yourself an advantage. I don't know how it works in magic but in yugioh intent is only considered for cheating penalties specifically, but you can still get upgraded to game or match losses for repeated or particularly severe gameplay errors. Especially if we're talking about in the same match.
You need to be careful with how you punish irreparable mistakes because otherwise people will try to actively provoke them to get easy wins. For example: actively waiting until the game has gone too far before pointing out a mistake.
This means that in some cases your rulings will be too lenient because giving out losses too easily is just a huge can of worms.
The football analogy fails because, unlike in most other games or situations, here it is entirely possible for the player to make things legal.
If a ref makes a bad call in football, even if you were inclined to do the "right thing" and harm your team, you're still in a different game and different situation. But here, as Crim pointed out, you can be absolutely certain that the mana was miscounted and fix it by just tapping the land, making things exactly as they were/should be.
The better analogy here would be if you found someone's wallet, and a cop said to you, "well, i cant force you to give it back."
That's a great analogy... because the cop literally can do that. They chose not to. Just like the judge in this case. Both the cop and judge have an active duty to do the thing, and chose not to despite it being the only reason they're there.
this
Not a big deal, but in the last month I've heard Crim say 'toeing the line' like 4 times and it's been used incorrectly every time. Hemeans it like 'dipping your toes' ie; experimenting. Toeing the lineis exactly the opposite of that.
Glad he's safe!
"Toeing the line" means experimenting to see what unethical behaviors you can get away with. Basically just seeing how evil you can be before people call you out on it.
@@dontmisunderstand6041 bro why are you making shit up? The literal definition of the saying is "to do what you are expected to do without causing trouble for anyone. Example: If you want to get ahead, you'd better learn to toe the line."
@@dontmisunderstand6041 no it doesn't
@dontmisunderstand6041
Is it opposite day?
I always thought it was "tow the line." The more you know.
Kinda telling that we have had discussions about "soft cheating" and yet, the attitude of "if the judge signs off on a misplay in your favor, work it" is precisely the gaming culture that allows sft cheating to continue.
I feel like a lot of people either didn’t watch or forgot about the children’s tv shows/cartoons/anime that involved sports where the protagonist is faced with an opportunity to cheat/get an unfair advantage, but decides not to because “it’s the right thing to do.”
@@thunderboltstriker The folks were growing up with cheating. I mean, 'heart of the cards'.
"It's ok to cheat if someone in power is corrupt enough to help you do it" is the most evil interpretation of that situation possible.
You see this in a LOT of society.
Brian hits you? If you speak up, the school will punish you for partaking in violence (even as the victim).
Brian steals your food at the office? If you speak up, HR will punish you for creating a hostile work environment.
Brian calls you a fat, ugly slob? If you speak up, family and friends will shame you for ruining dinner.
Why would you expect anything different in a game?
People will cheat it doesn't matter about the attitude other people have about it.
There is no way it wasn't done intentionally.. The OP and several witnesses noticed the extreme shift in play pace/style/mannerisms from the cheater right as this happened. They clearly saw they were 1 short of the winning line and played in a way to distract/manipulate their opponent.
A warning isn't a penalty when the wronged player isn't given any thing in return.. That yellow card comes with a free-kick.. Getting a warning means nothing if your wrongly gained advantage stands.
On the cheating front I have an example of how i prefer things handled from another tabletop game. Warhammer. Each army of models has their own suite of abilities and rules. A famous pro player misplayed a rule very slightly, he noticed in round 3 or 4 out of 8. He informed the judge and "didnt affect the outcome" but he conceded his current round and dropped, giving all his opponents 100 points because "I wouldnt feel right knowing I had cheated, however small or minor the infraction "
That's a guy to look up to!
To bad the honor system doesn't work irl
Nah, I'm not with Richard at all on tournament decision. His analogy is not great either. This isn't a team sport, it's a 1v1 game in which your decision to take or not take the win off a mistake is entirely affecting you. Crim and Seth showing integrity while Richard is like "the judge said it is okay, i get to win off a mistake in my favor."
In magic what the head judge says goes. It says in tournament policy that you literally cannot disagree with the head judge. Even if cheating was allowed, that's the rules.
@@midnalight6419 Legality vs Morality.
You're saying this behavior is legal.
He/They/We are saying this behavior is immoral.
For a really long time, owning other human beings was legal. But it was never moral.
Even if these types of cheats are 'legal' - that doesn't make them okay.
If the rules allow this type of behavior, the rules need to change too.
@midnalight6419 I am not disagreeing with the sentiment that what the judge decides is technically the end all be all of how that situation plays out. I am disagreeing with what the judge ultimately decided and believe the player should have conceded the match after the judge allowed him to move forward with a mistake he made that literally won him the game.
Why would you concede? If player A wasn't cheating, and judge says it's fine. I even go so far that there's nothing morally wrong with it.
Mistakes happen and no one caught it and the judgr decided. This isn't some grand demonstration of morality. The right thing to do isn't to concede a game you were not dead to on board for something that is fault shared by both players.
Bro it is not that deep. This is not slavery. This random player taking a win from a mistake is far better than being called a cheater and ousted forever. Ever heard of "better a guilty man go free than an innocent jailed" If we're going to argue morality, I prefer this outcome.
I feel like the problem with tutors is the same problem people have with non-singleton formats: it makes every game feel the same.
Usually, if you have tutors in your deck is to find the wincon of the deck, so your entire strategy revolves around trying to do that same thing in every single game you play (which you could call your deck being consistent). People think it strips the game of its fun premise, that every game should feel different because you have 100-ish different card in your deck.
It goes the same with 60 card non-singleton formats, 'cause you don't have a real "60 card deck", you have a "10 card (x4 copies each) deck with 20 lands" and a lot of people think it takes the fun out of the game making every game feel the same, where the same things happen just in a (maybe) different order.
The enemy of every card game is consistency. Players like it, but it's BAD for the game's health. That's the reason why Magic has the mana system in the first place, because it's necessary to reduce the consistency of decks, which is in turn necessary for game balance purposes. Tutors fundamentally destroy game balance by artificially inflating the consistency of a deck.
Crim: i dont mind the alt art as long as it flaverfully fits....
Also crim: i take one of every universe beyond/ anime art you have
@@Shimatzu95 Yeah, hard to take Crim seriously concerning efforts to keep flavor/lore intact for cards when he's consistently had nothing but open arms for whatever anime or universes beyond cards that WotC vomits out. Smothering Tithe comes to mind as a specific example of a card with anime art that made no sense, but Crim was all for it.
@@MrGeoghagan as someone whose honest stance on ub is what he said, i just had to comment on it
in crim defense UB/Anime art fine if they alternatives in the set but wizards have been making anime only version of cards the last few sets that I'm not really a fan of they could of at least made a Tree of Perdition non anime version in Innistrad Remastered, UB they can do w/e I'm way past the point of caring about that
The "my idea of ethics might be different from a pro player's because of the biases they have" argument doesn't work, because changing your own sense of right and wrong based solely on the personal benefit to yourself from doing so IS UNETHICAL. That's LITERALLY why we see cheating as a bad thing in the first place.
I saw a great quote about the Broncos: They have a decent defense, a QB they can build around for the future, and a single guy that can catch a ball.
Referring to the cheating allegations: if pros were expected to play as Richard is saying, then I assume tournaments would go forever because the correct way to play is to call out every possible "mistake" to a judge.
I think game state should have just reflected the tapped mana. That should be a rule if its not
Yes his thought process fails any basic ethics test if applied practically.
Just like Richard pointed out BOTH players get a strike. There is no reason for me to call a judge when I will get punished for my opponent making a mistake. I have been playing 30 years of tournaments. I have seen more judge calls go wrong than the ones that go right. Never call a judge unless it is a game loss mistake.
I think the best sport analogy to the "free mana" thing is cricket. In cricket, an umpire (judge) can rule a batsman not out but if the batter knows what was done was actually enough for them to be out, they can walk off and they are out. A batsman named Adam Gilchrist walked in the semi final of a cricket world cup (which is almost the biggest stage in world cricket) and his team mates were not happy and I am sure a lot of fans weren't either but he went on to be probably the greatest ever player in his position and is still remembered for that one action. And it would have been perfectly acceptable for him to have stayed on the field but he did what he thought to be best in that moment. You also see a lot of it in other sports like soccer where referees give penalty shots when the attacking team knows it wasn't a penalty, so they don't take the kick properly. I personally think it's gross to take the advantage.
Also, Australia went on to win that match and the tournament. So Gilchrist got to be remembered for the most sportsmanlike play in cricket and win the World Cup.
Did his entire team lose based on him walking off? If not its a terrible analogy
@@TheEvolver311 It put them in a bad position at the time but they won. The analogy is cricket, that was just an example, the analogy (that seemed to go over your head) is that in cricket, the umpire (judge in magic) can make a decision and it's perfectly fine to accept their decision and keep playing OR not accept their ruling, play as if the mistake had been made and accept the consequences of your mistake.
@@delailama736 the problem is both players played on ok with the error, the play of Seek the Beast had been made it wasn't as if it was caught by either player. Your analogy still doesn't stand it would be if the player cheated, got accused and accepted it on the spot this has nothing to do with some honor system self policing nonsense
@TheEvolver311 It really does. If you make a mistake that can easily be rectified by you and instead capitalize on that mistake because it's within the rules, you are a grub and as good as a cheater. Crim has the right idea. Admit the mistake and play as if it had played out correctly.
This year for Christmas, my sister got me several "bulk" boxes of cards. She got them from her real estate agent, whose son got them from a family friend and never played...
TLDR; not duals, and I've only received 1 of the 5 boxes, but there was an $140 intuition and a number of $10+ old cards from 6th-8th edition. Felt like a gold mine for what could have been literal bulk.
Seth pronounced Head Judge as "hedge judge". In this case, it was warranted.
I think Richard's take on the Judge Call situation is a solid L take. You're getting a chance to right a wrong and you're just going to take advantage of it and not own up to your mistake? Nah. If it was me, I would take the loss / loss of mana.
I think the difference of sports vs magic cheating is that in sports, everyone is watching, if a penalty happens it usually gets caught immediately. In magic, you could gain an edge secretly far easier
I think another difference is, in sports judges give wrong rulings because they've missed something. E.g. they didn't see a foul or they didn't see the intentional dive or they missed the offside etc.
Here the "wrong ruling" is given in response to a gameplay error, that has been caught. And it's advantaging the player who made the mistake, intentional or not. Please don't encourage behavior, where you can wiggle out of it by saying "oh, it's an honest mistake". It's a competitive game so punish mistakes, honest or not.
E.g. in football/soccer if someone scores a goal but it was offside, the referee WILL disallow a goal if it turns out it's been offside. The only reason video evidence in sports isn't popular with every is for BS excuses like "it disrupts the flow/people don't know whether to cheer or not" but otherwise people WANT clear enforcement of the rules.
Hope Crimothy is safe and stress free
So if i go compete in a GP i can cast spells for free without paying mana wow
Its like playing Arena Omniscience draft but in a different format
You just have to identify as the opposite gender. Worked well for Nicole.
"I cheatyface in omniscience, cast a draw three, and now I've seen too much information to reverse the game get got."
37:10 huge respect for Seth for saying that. And to Richard's response I would say, the other also player's livelihood is also a consideration in this case... its clear that you unfairly prioritize yourself to the point that you would take advantage of such a situation to get yourself ahead. Its not about fake internet points, its about compassion.
had to be another engagement farming practice from Richard. The sports analogy didn't even make sense, taking a "free mana" is cheating for anyone with integrity lol
@@TheQSwizzle It is cheating for anyone who has any concept of paying for things.
Their livelihood 😆 no
@@TheQSwizzle Crim has an incredible attitude. Like he's the sweatiest player ever, playing the meanest cards ever and laughing his ass off about Opposition Agent-ing your attempt to crack a fetch. I could never be that mean in casual games.
BUT he's drawing a hard line in the sand when it comes to owning up to your mistakes and not just accepting bad rulings in your favor, because whatever reasons Richard came up with. Professional sports players being scummy to get ahead in the game is not some moral defense.
Big Kudos to Crim
Regarding Roadside finds: an old friend of mine found a streetside box of water worn magic cards. He didn't play anymore but knew I did so he passed them my way. All of it was well worn, but Wooded Foothills and Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx were jewels among the bulk. Lots of folks don't know what these dorky cards are worth and are just trying to clear their basements. Obvi yall's referenced find is maximal and truly mythic, but I love Richard's take on the odds about it.
How is not just immediately tapping the land not the call? why is a judge even needed?
Right? Or just giving them the round loss for failing to pay for spells
That's why it's cheating
In the most absolute technical sense, there are decisions that were made because of the misplay that could have gone differently if the game was in the correct state, which is why the judge’s call was that they couldn’t rewind.
From a sportsmanship, or an ethical position, 100% agree the correct call is to tap the land and lose the mana and make as much of an adjustment as possible to reverse the mistake, even if that means losing the game.
Because seths tldr was incorrect,
He had cast seek the beast and resolved it,
So he had the information of the card he drew, 2 cards in exile from seek the beast and the scrollshift in his opponents hand. How much mana is that worth? He also didn't catch the missed tap land it was his friend from the outside.
The creature type that benefits most when pairing with vehicles and will likely pop up again in Aetherdrift is Pilot.
I was so surprised none of them brought Pilots up.
They did mention it, they said maybe a vehicle that makes a pilot token.
Okay, according to Richard’s own words as the opponent if you don’t catch they that they cast a spell for free, it’s on you. Please make him eat those words on commander clash
5:12 IDK, if I was ever going to pick a single white card that I considered deserving a horror movie representation, it would 10/10 be that absolute dice nightmare Cathar's Crusade.
Richard reminds me to Chip, the green race-car from Cars 1 in this video. Kind of same attitude/vibe.
You wouldnt download a mana
Yeah, but I would totally download a car.
There's too much mind reading going on, and mind reading doesn't exist. You can't know a person's intent unless they physically tell you.
In this instance the judge made a call, that's the correct call as per the rules, you take the win.
There is no controversy here except people's feelings on the matter with a lot of dropped context, which is to be disregarded as purely irrational.
'It's not for constructed play. It's not for Commander players. Who is it for?' - Limited players, Richard, limited players. It's a draft set. I do agree it's too expensive for what you're getting but the audience it's intended for is clear.
If it is for limited why is it $200+ a box?
@@DDPMonster Because they know people will pay it. As I said, I think it's overpriced, but it'll still sell.
Might not sell well but unfortunately probably enough to be justified as a low-effort cash-grab filler set
These sets are tough to draft due to cost. In reality they are reprint sets for commander and modern players but this set misses those players. So it misses everyone for being too expensive and not having many good reprints
I mean, thats why certain commons are chosen, is to build out some kind of limited environment, but no, I don't think this set will be heavily drafted, and I don't think thats how Wizards thinks its selling these packs.
1. It's clearly intentional. In a matchup that's clearly determined by a single pump spell or 1 point of extra damage, there's no way a player tanks then skips through the steps without knowing what they're doing.
2. If it's truly unintentional, then why would you accept that you won by effectively cheating? Even if it's unintentional cheating, by accepting, it's more likely you intended to cheat. Remember Bertocini said, "I cheat because I can get away with it". Just because you can get away with it doesn't mean it's not cheating.
3. In sports, they do run it back when you get an unfair advantage. In soccer, if one team stops playing and the other team scores a goal because they weren't aware of an injury, then they usually let the team score one back.
In the NFL, after cheating occurs all advantages gained from that cheating are reversed AND a penalty is added on top of that. This principle is the fundamental commonality behind every penalty in the game.
bahahah I was ranting 'less than mid' and then Crim piped up💖
i dont know how to say but ... i feel richard rly has a problem with good sportmanship xD
people DO that in real sport when EXTREMLY EVERYTHING is on the line
in german soccer we had in the 1st league on games who could decide the championship a player get a free kick and going to the ref saying he stumbled and wasnt fouled so the ref reversed his decicion and no free kick
we even had international games in importent qualifiers where nations played vs each other where a team got a goal that wasnt fair "the good sportmanship move was tgo play them the ball back but hte player with the ball didnt understood and scored a goal" after new kickoff the ENTIRE TEAM of the other nation stepped aside and let the enemy player run over the whole field free and score the equalizer because .. THATS FAIR.
dude it happens all the time in real sport ... its just there are also people who have bad sportmanship like maradonna who fake and cheat and enjoy it but its not everyone
its a classic prisoner's dilemma, and Richard is falling for it. The more we all show good sportsmanship, the more everyone benefits. Those who angle shoot and take every advantage at the expense of others will get ahead at the expense of others: BUT, the more people that do this, the worse it gets for everyone. Richard is saying "other people do this, we should do this too" and that's bad for everyone in the long run.
@@bremtreaty2469 which is very fitting, cause Richard literally plays Commander Clash like this. Always banking on the others to take care of threats so he can sit back and enjoy the removal without investing anything.
He gets ahead at the expanse of the other player(s) and even preaches that this is the best way to play EDH, without understanding that if everyone at the table did this, it would result in terrible gameplay.
@@_claymorepretty sure he understands what he is doing, he just doesn't care 😂
“Why does this set exist?” To draft. People wanna draft Innistrad. I wish the reprints were better, but it’s to draft and play with.
What reprints would have liked instead?
If it is to draft, why is it $200+ for a box?
@@duk2112Cavern of Souls, Parallel Lives. Some non-Innistrad cards reskinned, like Charming Conquistator or Trouble in Pairs.
@ Cavern was just reprinted in Ixalan. Trouble in Pairs happened on Ravnica and also within the last year. There aren’t any “conquistadors” on Innistrad. This is an Innistrad set. Parallel Lives, absolutely, but none of those others make sense for the plane or for timing
@@duk2112 Lost Caverns of Ixalan came out November 2023. Long enough it could've been included.
I’m tapping the mana as soon as it’s brought to my attention, but I’ve never been a cheater. The apology on socials after wards also sounded more like they were sorry they got caught 🤷🏻♂️
51:50 I have a set of lightning bolts with holes punched in them because the owner learned to play in jail and they had to punch all their cards to prove they were cards. People bring anything to try to sell.
I think in a 1 v 1 game like magic, recognition of a mistake followed by unwillingness to rectify it yourself should be considered cheating
Whether it's for draft or not, this set really is a case of "you did this to yourselves". OG innistrad block had so much value in it but years of power creep made this set Bulk Remastered featuring cards you won't open because they're more rare than good decisions by Hasbro
*whispering, Tim Heidecker voice* it's free mana
I think that something you miss in your analysis of the pro tour judging is that it got to the point where the judge was called. This is absolutely an angle shoot ---the argument is not that the land shouldn't have been tapped, but that by the time the other player noticed it, too many phases had passed. Calling a judge over in this situation, rather than just tapping the land, is an angle shoot. It isn't cheating, perhaps, but it sucks for the other guy.
Angle shooter is another way of saying cheater, terrible person, scum, whatever word you wanna use.
@cablefeed3738 I'm not really looking to castigate people. Rather, I want to see problems correctly diagnosed so that they can be treated.
To accuse someone of cheating is to suggest that you know their intent. Cheating requires a mens rea. You can't really punish someone for cheating if you can't show that their actions were intentional.
Angle shooting, on the other hand, is a *behavior*, and can be observed without knowing the intent of the actor. It is one thing to make a mistake, but another entirely to abuse the rules to punish your opponent for not immediately seeing that mistake in a high stress setting.
People who repeatedly engage in angle shooting really ought to be sanctioned.
@alexanderhenderson5583 i'm not saying this person is a cheater. I'm saying, if someone tries to angle shoot, I consider that cheating. And it's not really angle shooting, if you're not trying to do it.
@@cablefeed3738 how could he not really try to be calling the judge over? He could have just tapped his land?
@alexanderhenderson5583 you can't say its an angle shoot because you lack knowledge of it being a behavior. So you kinda just swapped out cheater for angle shoot.
You guys were curious what tribal deck might stand to gain from Lifecraft Engine and who uses a lot of artifacts. I think I have one answer: Pirates.
Not exactly a mega powerful tribe, but they have lots of in flavour vehicles, use them a lot, they have relevant abilities, and this would help to turn all the ships into pirates as well.
Also merfolks with deeproot pilgrimage. I played a deck with subterranean schooner as a vehicule. Lifecraft engine might be better even though it's 1 more mana. Sill a fringe deck though
Love Crim being so direct and up front, always cracks me up how unhinged is reaction is 🤣
Cheaters take advantage of society's indulgence. Saying things like "we cant judge intent" us exactly what they bank on. Its our job as a society to call that out and not let a cheater off the hook.
If someone didnt pay mana for their Hopeless Nightmare, then passed and cast scrollshift on my draw step, I'd make them put it back in their hand, reverse the life loss/discard, and take back the scrollshift lol.
It's not true that in professional sports that players never do the honourable thing in spite of the ref. It happens all the time. In cricket for example a batsman will sometimes "walk" even though the umpire gave them not out.
I took notes from Richard and now I land ramp so hard in my Izzet deck. My playgroup is impressed by the fact that my land count is on par with the green decks at the table! Thanks Richard!!
Your green player is doing it wrong.
@@MakeVarahHappen They can't all be like Phil!
This has gotta be a joke
@@MakeVarahHappen i don't think they run enough ramp spells.
Hey Richard, do I have to call over a referee when someone is holding in football? That is where your argument about penalty vs cheating fails. In a magic tournament, are there multiple judges monitoring each individual game? Because a large portion of regulation is on the players and not a third party, it becomes very unclear as to which should be which, penalties or cheating.
Just a thought here. Stop comparing magic to football. Completely different kind of penalties. Compare it to chess. You make a illegal move is chess you are disqualified same as in magic (some times but think it's a better comparison)
Lifecraft Engine goes perfectly in my Edward Kenway Pirates and Vehicles deck 🔥🔥🔥
I came here to say Pirates. Respect to a fellow buccaneer!
@@kushluk777
One of my favorite parts of the deck is that nothing is a flavor violation. Why do the pirates have the Skysoverign? They stole it, duh.
It doesn’t really matter for it because it doesn’t found pirates & vehicles twice, so you’d have pirate vehicles & not really any benefit for it
lifecraft engine is literally made to order for Magda CEDH lists, definitely gonna be a huge boost to that archetype and I'm really excited about it
My first thought as well, it's Adaptive Automaton on crack
At 3 mana, it's a bit expensive, not sure it will make most cuts... we'll see!!
@@fredouellet3160 This will 100% see play in magda lol, it’s basically an artifact version of Bloodboiler which is also a banner (unless Karn is on the board or something)
Richard believes so much in ramping that you don't have to tap lands for mana. I mean...that is the best ramp.
Would love to draft the remastered set if it was normal price . But will have to settle for buying some singles . Also the not tapping mana is for sure cheating when you get called on it and don’t then tap it down
I think the issue between magic and other sports is the variance or chance versus pure skill. That's why it's a penalty in other sports and cheating in magic.
I need someone on the cast that actually cares about flavor so I don't scream every time it comes up.
What do you mean?
@@JonReid01 None of them do and it annoys me. what else is there to mean?
@MakeVarahHappen well, what's a concrete example from this podcast where they don't care about flavour? It's a big of a broad statement.
@traviscochran9253 like for example the discussion about non-innistrad cards in IR. I felt like there was a conversation there that we didn't have because no one cared.
@@MakeVarahHappenflavor seems mostly pointless.
Richards comparison to sports doesnt make sense because in most sports there is a warning but also an actual penalty like 5 yard penalty, a free throw or a poweplay. In MTG there are only game losses or match losses which are huge penalties in comparison. Someone might get a warning and a mark on their record, but the person who they cheated against is still stuck having lost their match.
You never take an unfair advantage even if its a mistake. The sports analogy isnt accurate - in golf players call penalties on themselves all the time because its a game where not all players are constantly watched. In order to be fair games have to be self-policing.
@@jerryhikel7826 I promise you professional basketball players and football players are not “self-policing” themselves if they know they fouled someone but the the refs don’t see/call it
If the pitcher is throwing balls I will not swing!
People cheat at golf all the time
Nah, you just take the L man. Admit your honest mistake and claim it as such, otherwise you're accepting mana unfairly and your 'intent' is to cheat with that mana... I don't like all these analogies talking around this actual story of cheating and trying to convince us this is okay.
So there are no mistakes and it should just be a immediate game loss and we dont need to rely on shamming people and the honor system
Horrible take from Richard, dude should have just tapped the mana and there was no need to reverse plays, why even call the judge if it was an honest mistake? Clear angle shooting scummy behavior.
Yeah the fact that a judge had to be called confirms it was cheating. I agree someone not cheating would have just tapped their land.
If I'm not mistaken, it's a third person outside of the game who called the judge...
I feel like Innistrad's strength was it's flavor and draft pool. If it was cheaper, I love to buy a box or two and draft it.
You wouldn't download mana, would you?
"We don't have a mechanism for getting more Ricks into the market." Is such a hilarious MtG sentence. 29:20
If you need to scoop to a judge making a call, then shouldn’t the judges call just be that it’s a game loss for the person who made the mistake?
It's not so much that you have to scoop to the judge call, it's whether you are okay with winning a game you know you should have lost if it was played properly.
I think if the remastered sets were standard price people would EAT this up!
I would at least make an effort to attend 1 event if it were the same price as standard.
Even then I think "eat this up" is over selling it. I don't think thats true, I think it would sell less then bloomburrow or MH3, even at standard pricing.
If it was standard price AND standard playable, I might buy some lol
About the found card collection: When I was moving to another town after living 30 years in one place, I found my old pokemon collection from 1st edition. I had no idea old pokemon cards could have any value so I trew then away. THE NEXT DAY someone asks on facebook on some boardgame group about first edition charmanders which I had like 4 of, so I checked how much are they. My god I was angry. Sure they were nowhere near mint condition but still I must have threw away a lot of money. I still think about it after few years and it hurts.
Finding other people's discarded card collections is the perfect embodiment of the saying "One man's trash is another man's treasure". I'm pretty sure that one is about trading cards! 😂
Through the Breach had Innistrad art already in its last reprint
I don’t watch a ton a professional sports but isn’t the way pro athletes try to push the limits of the rules and eke out shady advantages one of the worst parts of the game. It doesn’t seem like a good example to follow.
33:20 A similar thing happened to me at a pre-release. I cast a 5 drop creature even though I didn't have the color required for it (I had like all the colors except for one) but we both didn't notice until 3 turns later, so when we called a judge the ruling was exactly this: too much time has passed to reverse and both players failed to notice. So the ruling was basically in my favor (the player cheating on mana). I was allowed to keep my 5 drop in play and it's what won me the game.
I have never felt so bad in my life lol! I wasn't trying to cheat but I mean that was the official ruling. I was practically begging the judge to punish me, give me a warning or something but they judged that I didn't do anything wrong essentially since my opponent also failed at noticing. It's such a weird rule.
Yeah I'm with Richard, accept the referee's call. If it's a controversial call or a bad one, that's his problem not yours. 😂 You didn't write the rules and you didn't make the call.
I don't see why people would get angry at the player. I mean you'd only be angry if they cheated intentionally. But in such a case you have to give the benefit of doubt. Unless it's a repeat offender.
Because it's easy for the player to fix it, just tap the land. You are obliged to obey the judge's ruling, but there is nothing stopping you from tapping a land and not using the mana. Also, the player who won, apologized for their behavior, so it seems not everyone agrees with you.
@fredouellet3160 Yeah but like, unlike most people I don't care what Twitter or Reddit thinks. 🤣 Because why should anyone. They're irrelevant and mentally dysfunctional creatures. Not good reason to give them power over you. Just ignore those whack/unintelligent people and your life will improve.
Years ago, a guy I knew from my LGS who was a dumpster diver found a complete set of collector edition boxes up next to a dumpster. It is possible, but this collection seems pretty nice. The condition of the cards my buddy found were a little rough
Am with Seth & Crim, would stand on the side of honour for myself.
I love the movie poster cards. The emrakuk and griselbrand look amazing
Lifecraft Engin is going to do work in Magda decks and Edward Kinway decks btw
Lifecraft Engine is PERFECT for Snakes on a Plane decks. 😊
I have a friend I play cedh with. But if he puts a card he can legally tutor for in his hand face down that he is suppossed to put in the battlefield, I'll either gently move the card away from the other face down cards or remind him to have it seperated. It's not about who's cheating. It's just about maintaining a clean environment.
Richard has no concept of sportsmanship.
Kind of defines "Lawful Evil" to me.
his take is trash
Chaotic Evil. Lawful Evil means they respect rules and codes. Richard's take inherently says "rules only matter when they benefit me". That's not Lawful, it's Chaotic. Lawful Evil binds itself to the same rules it binds everyone else to. And Richard's take fundamentally does not do that, it suggests that you never let rules get in the way of getting what you want.
@@dontmisunderstand6041no he is assuming the person made a mistake and didn't cheat because we cannot know if they actually cheated. You are assuming the opposite
@ That has less than nothing to do with anything being talked about here. No assumptions are involved here at any point, at all.
@@dontmisunderstand6041 He honored bad ruling by a judge, a literal authority. It’s lawful evil by definition. Not chaotic. He literally reiterates this exact point here. 39:25. That’s definitively lawful evil
“If it’s a shady call, you accept it anyway”. That’s not chaotic.
A crony capitalist leveraging legalities to make more money is lawful evil. They’re following the evil law.
It wasn't discussed in the episode but Questing Beast's adventure doesn't "draw" cards it exiles them exposing information. If you rewind the player who tapped incorrectly now knows the next 2 cards of their opponents library. Maybe there is a better way to handle this but I can see why the came couldn't be rewound
Limited supply for local game stores means each store will get 3 copies
There are two types of land tutors. Mana fixing land tutors and toolbox land tutors. If you cast a Rampant Growth you are mana fixing. If you are Sylvan Scrying for an Arena of Glory to give a creature haste, you are casting Demonic Tutor in spirit.
Cheaters are cheaters. Who doesn't tap 1 mana for a 1 cc spell. Penalty should be a game loss.
I wanted to see more cards like Eruth, tormented prophet and Lier in the black and white. Eruth is one of my favorite pieces of art and I'm afraid we will never see those treatments again.
Its cheating. They knew what they were doing. You have 6 mana, played a sorcery speed spell without paying the mana cost and played fast hoping OP wouldnt notice. And he didn't.
If this is how judges rule things next can i use 3 bolts quickly with 2 mana. Since it moved too far game resumes as is.
"Oh i was nervous so i casted my spells really fast. "
Competitive rel can be rough but if you want to preserve the integrity of the game you do the right thing weather it disadvantages you or not,.just tap the correct mana on your own and take the L
On the Lifecraft Engine, if you pick elf and have something that say when a elf enters.... then would crewing a vehicle and it becoming and elf trigger it? Because it makes vehicle creatures a certain type but they're not a creature until they're crewed.
@@Neowurm No. The vehicle doesn't enter the battlefield when it is crewed, it just gains a type. Indeed, it is kind of a non-bo with respect to ETB triggers, since vehicles don't enter with a creature type.
@@alexanderhenderson5583that's what I thought. Just wanted to make sure. I was trying to think of any way it could be broken. It's just junk
@27:00 Why doesn't wizards split the difference with Secret Lairs?
They could do just one limited printing of the Foil drops to get that FOMO they want AND just print the normal versions to order once the normal printings sell out.
They've already brought non-set cards into remastered sets. Time Spiral Remasteded has retro frame remand... which was from Ravnica City of Guilds
The secret lair test would be neat, but I feel the bigger WPN store would just shadow the local mom and pop stores. So if you compare my small towns game store compared to the Dallad Ft Worth area, I'd have to travel to Dallas to get the Secret Lair product. When online all I'd have to do is click a button online to get it shipped to my house
owner of goldfish says to scum the opponent..... color me shocked.
in commander at home, didnt oliva told their story how she and brian got a huge part of their collection becuase they stumbled in a small shop with a big box of magic cards filled to the rim with smaller boxes of cards and she asked how much and was told 50 bucks for the box, and then after thinking if its worth was told they meant the ENTIRE box everything for 50 ?
like stuff like that happens xD
Anyone else always hear "sordid service fee" on the ad read?
This is why I don't jive with Richard.
It is concerning how little integrity he seems to be displaying
Which part
@@totakekeslider3835 I imagine it has something to do with the controversial tournament win.
@@JamesCooley-q8b This is the same guy that week in and week out intentionally durdles every game until his opponents wipe themselves out and combos off. He will do literally anything to win. This stance isn't shocking at all.
Someone needs to play devil's advocate. Y'all can chill lol
This isnt Nicole Dubins first debacle and it wont be the last. Shes a cheater imo
@ Richard 44:14 it's because of Mike Long & Mark Justice and the early years of Magic. Christopher Pikula changed the culture because we got tired of every player trying to cheat or just pull one over on the judges. Let other sports expect less of their players. I prefer we be a better place than that. I'd highly recommend you check out the star city games article "Cheating At The Magic World Championship" by Patrick Chapin to learn more.
Lifecraft Engine will go directly into Magda cEDH.
Obscure magic judging rules and apples to oranges sports analogies aside, the soul of magic is casting spells with mana.
If we ignore this, what are we even doing?
Playing Yu-Gi-Oh?
To Yugioh's credit, if you pulled a stunt like this in Yugioh you get an automatic game or match loss and a potential suspension from organized play too. An illegal play that creates an irreparable game state, as the judge determined was the case in this match, in Yugioh results in an automatic game loss for the player who made the illegal move. And that's if it was determined to be accidental. If it was determined to be intentional, it becomes Unsporting Conduct - Cheating, which is treated equally as severely as PHYSICALLY ASSAULTING THE OPPONENT.
Richard, blaming the victim of a cheat for not catching a cheat is poor form.
It is the literal rule of the game.
@@TheEvolver311No, it's the official fix when the literal rules of the game have not been followed! Also, if the judge deemed it was a cheat (or a probable cheat) he would have disqualified the cheater...
Richard sounds like the Rams coach after the no call in 2019. I'm still bitter.
39:20 it’s a good point by Richard but in all sports there is also the concept of good sportsmanship which is not just a joke but part of the essence of any sport.
Nah I have integrity so if I fuck up I'd own it whether it cost me the game or not. It wouldn't have even needed to come to a judge call. Sure maybe that's not 'up to the standards' of other sports but it's the world I'd rather live in.
Could you imagine penalties in magic being called like an American Football penalty??
"Player 1, Mana not tapped correctly, 5 life penalty"
"Player 2, overdrawn, 2 Card penalty"