I remembered this verse when Joseph answered his brothers: "But Joseph replied, "Don't be afraid of me. Am I God, that I can punish you? You intended to harm me, but God intended it all for good. He brought me to this position so I could save the lives of many people." Genesis 50:19-20 Sometimes, we do not understand how God acts. Joseph had to be arrested and sold by his brothers in order to fulfill God's amazing plan for his life.
I don't agree with your debunking. God didn't have to create humans with the tendency or the ability to have evil thoughts or do evil deeds, but he did. Removing an option of possible deeds is not limiting free will any more than not giving humans the ability to change the hue of our skin like chameleons. We can't become translucent at will. Is this a limitation on free will? The point about a dentist being good because while hurting a patient, they ultimately do a good deed by healing them is also flawed. Don't you think a benevolent dentist would have their instruments cause no pain, if possible? In addition, I don't think it's a very good idea to end a video by saying "Atheists can't handle the truth so they make up lies". Insulting people doesn't make your flawed arguments much better.
so u think God believes in utilitarianism rather than character Development where in each person is unique and has his own story. we all have our own problems and up bringing, but in the end is suffering is temporary when we learn that such things could occur we become more great full not all will see it this way. Suffering don't even mean evil i mean an example is exercising i feel pain and suffer from soreness but ultimately see it as healthy. Even though the world is full of pain and suffering it will never blind me to see the beautiful things God has Given me and in the end God will wipe away all the pain all the tears. ( my opinion would only be accepted if the christian world view is accepted) and u know what it's ok if you see this us a bad argument, it's honestly your choice to accept if the pain of suffering you have is a burden or a challenge to over come
I’m a Christian, but it remains very difficult for me to accept that God allows people to be born with horrific diseases or disabilities; or that He allows someone to rape a child over and over and over again. How would you feel about Superman if he just stood by and watched as a little child was raped and murdered? If anyone has a meaningful response to my comments, I would genuinely be interested to read it. This has been a big battle for me lately. [NB: See my updated understanding of this matter below in the replies to this comment.]
How else can Evil be shown its juxtaposition if good always wins? God sees infinity. Our life is a vapor. Those children are to be with the lord for eternity. Those tormentors? never to see the lord again. Now what is fair? We challenge God with finite judgment. When in reality he is challenged with infinite judgment. So perhaps the Evil is too much... Well, a child only remains a child when its protected. How far will existence go in order to reveal itself? Imagine being a father and seeing all the children around you laugh and play. None of them will ever see you because they have never been without you. It's nice to have something to look up to. What if you don't?
You've stated a deeply troubling problem not about God's existence but the nature of God. If God is all powerful and loving, why the excruciating suffering to innocent victims by nature or twisted people? There's no satisfying answer at all for reasonable, emotionally sensitive people. What I have learned in my studies is that there are and have been very smart and sensitive people, who nonetheless maintain a belief in God. This God may not be so omnipotent-- all powerful -- and needs our help, my help, your help, to relieve suffering in this world. And piety or Christian belief in this view still consists in 'doing the good God wants done, if only He could'. You have to remain thoughtful about what is the good you should do. And, nobody knows if it means much ultimately - the good we try to do, but it means something to the people we care about and to us. Our faith must be that it does mean something after all.
Couple of things. One is that if God wanted to create free will he could have nonetheless limited the amount of suffering, and two, what has not been taken into account is enormous suffering from natural, non human causes.
Then as humans we would never truly learn the severity of things if I murdered someone God lowers the suffering we wouldn't be understanding in a sense of how bad the act was that we committed suffering as humans also builds us. Suffering also isn't a thing God has created neither is evil its the lack of good
0:30 - 1:15 No, this is not a good argument, but this is also a very poor representation of the argument as presented by most atheist philosophers. In essence, it is a strawman. This also decontextualizes the claims being made. First, we need to understand that this argument is not an argument made in a vacuum, but is a response to the claim that an all powerful, all knowing, all loving creator deity exists. The idea here is simple: an all powerful deity can prevent evil from existing. An all knowing deity knows how to exercise the power for this prevention, and is also aware of the existence of such evil in absence of its prevention. An all loving deity would want to prevent evil from existing, and so, it would be against its will for evil to not be prevented. In conjunction, this means that an all powerful, all knowing, all loving creator deity can create the universe without evil, knows how to do so, would want to do so, and knows that it should do so. If so, then there is no reason a universe with evil should be able to exist. Yet this is the universe we are in. We exist in a universe that should be impossible in the case that an all powerful, all knowing, all loving creator deity exists and created our universe. Therefore, the existence claim must be false. I know this characterization seems superficially similar to the one in the video, but it is not, because the implication from the premise to the conclusion is in the additional details that I included and the video omitted, and the truth of the premise is also something the video contests, but does so because it omits the details supporting the premise. For example, the detail about the fact that this is a creator deity is important: it means the existence of the universe occurs solely due to the will of the deity, and so is not a mere accident outside their control. This is crucial for the argument, but the video strawmans it by omitting this. 1:15 - 1:20 As poorly phrased as they are in the video, no, they are not, but the ones in the genuine argument are indeed logically inconsistent. 1:29 - 1:33 No, there is no _explicit_ contradiction, but there is an _implicit_ contradiction, and I explained it. 1:34 - 1:51 Insofar as these propositions are external to the proof and not explicitly stated as premises, yes, they are assumptions, but I assume this is not what the video means when it calls them "assumptions." What the video means when it calls them assumptions is that they are statements without sufficient justification, statements that are being taken as true for granted and without proof, but could very well be false. But is it actually the case that these statements are unjustified? No, it is not. 1:51 - 2:07 Why do you need to smuggle in the qualifier "necessarily" here? Are you trying to build a strawman and sneak it past the viewers? 2:07 - 2:40 There are many problems with this objection. Problem 0: it assumes that free will exists in the universe, even though there is no evidence that there free will exists, and there is evidence against its existence. Problem 1: the existence of free will is not stated anywhere in the Bible or within Christian doctrine. In fact, Calvinism is inconsistent with the existence of free will. You have to reject other doctrines in order to accept free will as something that, the all powerful, all knowing, all loving creator deity that you call God, wants. In fact, in a universe created by an all powerful, all knowing, all loving creator deity, everything in that universe, as well as the very existence itself of that universe, merely occurs by the will of said deity. So there actually cannot be free will in such a universe. So not only is free will unbiblical and untheological, but it is actually inconsistent with the existence claim being proposed by monotheism. Problem 2: if it actually is the case that it is not logically possible for free will to exist without evil also occurring, then an all loving creator deity would not want to create a universe where free will exists. So this objection the video makes simply backfires and just implies that the all powerful, all knowing creator deity of the universe is necessarily not loving, if it must create a universe with free will. Particularly striking is that there is not even a reason an all loving creator deity should want free will, even if free will did not contradict the absence of evil. In fact, as noted by problem 0, if it is indeed the case that an all powerful, all knowing, all loving creator deity does exist, then that deity most likely _did_ not want a universe with free will. But this just begs the question, though. Problem 3: contrary to what the video states, it actually is not the case that it is impossible to create a universe with free will where no one chooses to do evil. Some people choose evil, and some people choose good. An all powerful, all knowing, all loving creator deity can simply choose to only create those who will freely choose to do good, and not create those who will freely choose to do evil. Alternatively, the deity can create people which have the intent to carry out an evil act, but then prevent the act from being successful. This would not infringe on free will, at least if we ignore problem 1, but it also prevents evil from happening. Problem 4: in relation to problems 2 and 3, this argument creates another internal inconsistency within Christianity: mainly, that no evil occurs in Heaven. If it is not possible for people in Heaven to choose to do evil, then they have no free will. But if God wanted to create a universe with free will, then God would not want for people to ultimately spend eternity in Heaven. If God did want people to be in Heaven, then would not want to create free will. If free will does exist in Heaven, then this completely contradicts the claim that free will cannot be created in such a way that evil never gets chosen. Any two of the three claims will contradict the third. Problem 5: this entire argument only accounts for anthropogenic evil, but it fails to account for the alleged existence of Satan and demons, and it fails to account for the existece of viruses, cancer, and mental disorders. It fails to account for natural disasters. To be continued in the replies...
I’ll play I guess. When arguing your points you should leave out religious doctrine, especially those of which twist the word of God in various ways. The best approach philosophically for this argument is to keep it relatively “simple” and stick to the argument of all loving, all knowing all powerful creator. But when referencing Gods word, stick to His actual word and not interpretations or misrepresentations. Christianity teaches us that the Bible is Gods word and that’s it. No man given extras included. That being said the Bible is filled with examples of free will. Genesis 1:26 says that God created man in His image. Unlike animals which act mainly on instinct, God gave us qualities to resemble our creator. Qualities like love, justice and yes, like our creator free will. The Bible encourages us to choose life by listening to Gods voice. Leaving out free will would render all of this creation meaningless, even cruel, therefore cannot be an all loving God. Prison is not love my friend. Free will comes with the deal. It’s a sacrifice, much like the sacrifices He’s willing to make at various times for His love to us. The obvious and extremely important example being sacrificing His only son to pay for the wages of sin. Besides this I think you don’t play fair, or even honestly when addressing the arguments. Your original statement is clearly addressed in the “assumptions” section which then leaves your first point moot, and your address on the assumptions confusing because the video clearly states what he means by assumptions. The rest can be addressed with my previous comments. Free will must exist for an all loving creator. If free will must exist for God to be all loving, and also that He is all loving, then we could probably assume He would have to love the man who commits evil as much as the man who turns from sin. He would probably preserve His word through the ages and provide for us a way to Him. Starting to sound familiar? Read the Bible my friend. God loves you as much as He does me, but in order for that love to be genuine, we must freely choose Him. He provided a way to Him, all of us.
Thanks for keeping the comments section open! I like to read all these temper tantrums as they vindicate exactly what is written: " Whoever corrects a scoffer gets himself abuse, and he who reproves a wicked man incurs injury. Do not reprove a scoffer, or he will hate you; reprove a wise man, and he will love you. Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be still wiser; teach a righteous man, and he will increase in learning. " - Proverbs 9: 7-9 There aren't very many wise people out there, which is to be expected (Matthew 7: 13-14). LOL
"when people show how I'm wrong, that proves I'm right!" Christian apologetics is in such sad state. Verses from the Bible claiming that people will disagree with the Bible mean nothing to anyone who isn't indoctrinated to automatically and blindly just accept that the Bible is true.
“He was despised and rejected- a man of sorrows, acquainted with deepest grief. We turned our backs on him and looked the other way. He was despised, and we did not care. Yet it was our weaknesses he carried; it was our sorrows that weighed him down. And we thought his troubles were a punishment from God, a punishment for his own sins! But he was pierced for our rebellion, crushed for our sins. He was beaten so we could be whole. He was whipped so we could be healed. All of us, like sheep, have strayed away. We have left God’s paths to follow our own. Yet the Lord laid on him the sins of us all. He was oppressed and treated harshly, yet he never said a word. He was led like a lamb to the slaughter. And as a sheep is silent before the shearers, he did not open his mouth. Unjustly condemned, he was led away. No one cared that he died without descendants, that his life was cut short in midstream. But he was struck down for the rebellion of my people. He had done no wrong and had never deceived anyone. But he was buried like a criminal; he was put in a rich man’s grave. But it was the Lord’s good plan to crush him and cause him grief. Yet when his life is made an offering for sin, he will have many descendants. He will enjoy a long life, and the Lord’s good plan will prosper in his hands. When he sees all that is accomplished by his anguish, he will be satisfied. And because of his experience, my righteous servant will make it possible for many to be counted righteous, for he will bear all their sins. I will give him the honors of a victorious soldier, because he exposed himself to death. He was counted among the rebels. He bore the sins of many and interceded for rebels.” Isaiah 53:3-12 NLT "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16 God loves you so much and showed that by sending His Son to die for us so that we may inherit eternal life. We deserve hell but He gave us heaven through faith in Jesus. He took the punishment we deserved and by putting our faith in Him we can be saved. The Key To Eternal Life: th-cam.com/video/uZdv-TtiMkg/w-d-xo.html For evidence for Christianity check out th-cam.com/users/drcraigvideos and th-cam.com/users/CrossExamined because if Jesus really rose from the dead it is the most important fact ever! God bless y’all!
So god supposedly sacrificed himself to himself on a cross to exploit his own loophole and save humanity from his own wrath all because a clone woman eat magic fruit after being convinced by a talking snake?
@@2l84me8 "This world is like a small room that's running out of oxygen and there's only one door out and it's a very low door; so low that those who refuse to humble themselves can't get to the fresh air. Salvation is through Jesus Christ alone." - Ray Comfort John 10:9 "I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved." -Jesus Christ
@@toniamcdonald1838 Really? You’re going to use the absolute worst religious apologist besides kent Hovind to sell me your religion with threats? Try providing actual credible evidence that such a danger actually exists and that this jesus of yours is the “cure”. I’m not close minded, you’re just not good at persuading others.
@@pepejulianonziema69 hey newbie stay at the kiddies table. Evil is not what the original Hebrew says. The word translated "evil" is the word ra. It also means sorrow, calamity, disaster, afflictions, and adversity. Too easy. Better come up with something that has not been explained a billion times.
@Anon Ymous predetermination doesn’t throw the free will out of the window!! God has written down the choices that you would make cause he’s an omniscient and knows the choices before you make them! It’s predetermined according to God and you’re living it without knowing what’s written while having the right to choose!
You say it isn't possible for a world with both free will and no suffering to exist, does heaven have free will? Is there suffering in heaven? If you think that there is free will in heaven, and no suffering in heaven, then you've admitted that God CAN create a place with both free will and no suffering, he just intentionally CHOSE to create a world with a bunch of suffering because the Bible depicts him as a sadistic, evil, monster. Good thing there's no evidence that he exists.
That's a false dichotomy. We believe that we are in a process of sanctification and once we move past this life we will be fully sanctified. So having made the ultimate free will choice to believe on him our wills shall be set once we enter heaven. (That's how I personally see it anyway)
@@malichl4246 I'm not sure you've really answered the question. Is there "free will" in heaven or not? How is it a "free will" choice to believe in "God" if the alternative is eternity in hell? Is your "God" really saying: "Believe in me or else"? What kind of a monster is that?
@@justgaming1952 Interesting. Just to clarify, in point 2, do you mean that you are already in heaven, but if you sin, you are thrown out? If there is no free will, you would not be able to choose to sin (or not), so being thrown out for something about which you had no free choice seems bizarre.
@@Nai61a no, those are two distinct answers. The first answer bring that you are just stripped of your free will, and the other possibility being that you have free will in heaven but if you choose to sin your are removed.
If your god cannot create a universe without unnecessary suffering then he is not all-powerful nor all good. Why is your notion of free will worth all this harm and pain in the end when your god could have very easily not created anyone that would intentionally harm others? Your god either doesn't exist or he is sadistic.
Not to mention that these beliefs are often paired with a belief in a heaven within which there is no unnecessary suffering _as well as_ free will. How is one supposed to take a belief system seriously when it says "Y exists because X cannot exist, and also X exists"?
On the contrary, God did create a perfect world without suffering, which was called the Garden of Eden. It was humanity's disobedience that lead to the downfall of mankind. When you truly love someone, you give them a choice: either follow me or don't. True faith isn't blind, but rather a choice that is freely made. How can we grow physically, mentally and spiritually if we don't learn from experience? True grace is appreciated when we go through difficult times. P.S: Even though we've fallen from grace, Abba Yahuah still open a path back to Him through His holy son Jesus Christ. There is no greater love than giving your life to save others.
@@john144 Prove your god exists and demonstrate your claims are valid. What kind of nonsense god allows cancer, suffering and natural disasters all because a clone woman ate a piece of magic fruit after listening to a talking snake? That has absolutely nothing to do with “love” nor experience.
@@2l84me8 The evidence of God's existence is all around us: the creation of this universe (a big bang in an empty vacuum of space); matter colliding in the perfect sequence to form reality; the miracle of life in this world; the symmetry of creation developing a pattern, even in the smallest detail of our genetics; the inherited traits of knowing right from wrong (common morality and ethics) built within the majority of us. These are just some of things that I can imagine that displays the signatures of a creator. This can't be by random chance nor are we an accident. Every single one of us has a purpose, you have a purpose in this world/life. And as I previously stated, death was introduce with the introduction of sin. Eve was created by using Adam's rips but isn't a clone. She is her unique person who is physically in union of Adam.
Do you know how many Christians are saying that if Jesus did not save us from literally eternal hell but only from finite hell then His work on the cross meant absolutely nothing because eventually all people will be in heaven anyways. Think about it, let's take an analogy, imagine if you would be caught for a serious crime in a third world country and you would face 30 years prison time in horrifying conditions, where you would need to live in a small cell with 15 other inmates sleeping on the floor should to shoulder, rats and cockroaches roaming around the food is disgusting the tropical heat is unbearable etc. But then some person would come to you and say "I will make you walk free; you won't need to spend one day in that prison and more than that I will give you 10 million dollars to start a new life". Would you tell him "That's nothing! What you will do for me is absolutely nothing, it means nothing, it is nothing, it changes nothing! Yet think about it, Jesus is not saving you from our prisons, He is saving you from hell itself which is 10 000 times worse at least and where you may spend thousands of years without any peace and hope at all, just constant immense torture and that is nothing? Jesus would do nothing for you? What kind of twisted thinking is that?
your first "rebuttal" implies that either heaven isn't a place that god can create, or that free will doesn't exist in heaven. If free will doesn't exist in heaven, that means god doesn't values free will that much, as he is stripping it from you for all eternity.
That’s an interesting points ❤ It doesn’t necessarily mean God doesn’t love free will. For example Death wouldn’t be there in heaven that doesn’t mean God doesn’t like death. Death is the way to meet God 🎉
The laws of logic are just expressions of necessary truths which are grounded in God's perfect rationality. So, far from being "bound" by them, God is the basis for them. - RF Admin
Where is atheism's proof that intelligence came from nothing, life came from non-life? The more atheists try to prove naturalism the more they disprove it. Max Planck said science advances one funeral at a time. Don't put too much faith in Secular Religion thumping humanists... and their funding sources.
What about all the people who don't have a choice? What about the stillborn, or people who die of diseases or the sins of others? They had no choice about sinning or not sinning. The idea of god testing us with sin or not is flawed itself why would an omnicient god even conduct an experiment if he knew exactly how it would turn out?
@@africanhistory , yep death is natural and one day we'll all pass on. Death is inevitable and part of the natural order. But with death, comes new life.
The greatest good you can ever see from absolute evil is the truth of the UTTER depravity of man without God. Even Angels are hopelessly VILE without God. No prideful being would believe they really, really, need God until someone can observe the suffering created by Satan and people who follow him (unwittingly is still no excuse) and deny the existence of a vile Satan and Good God.
God allows evil, because man allows it...Genesis 1:27 says: "God created man in his own image..." He created man to make his own choices, just like God. He also gave dominion over the earth to humankind. (Genesis 1:28-30). God cannot take the dominion of the earth away from man at this point, because he would be violating his word, and that would be unjust. It is invariably, a LEGAL CONTRACT. Man has free will to make decisions, even if it means those decisions are inherently evil, because of the fall of Adam. (Romans 5:14). The good news is Jesus Christ came to free us from that fallen nature, by giving us a new nature through him.(Romans 5:15).
A Diest has no such conflicts. God is God and does God things that are far removed from our comprehension. All we are then doing is projecting our logical on a God beyond our logic.
OK lets look at the "it may not be possible to create a world where people always freely choose to do what is morally good" ... then he isn't all powerful. If God is all powerful he can do ANYTHING including a world where people always freely choose to do good. Also this doesn't account for the evil of Hell. constant On the "we allow suffering to allow a greater good". Yes we do because we are limited. If we where all powerful there would be no need to allow suffering for the greater good as we would have the power to produce the greater good with no suffering.
You forget that without something to fear you cannot grow in courage. Without someone to care for you could not grow in compassion. Without those who are in need you could not grow in charity and love.
@@malichl4246 in a world without suffering there is no need for bravery. You do not need suffering to care for someone. In a world without suffering why do you need charity? Love does not require suffering
@@malichl4246 love and charity do not go hand in hand. You do not to love someone to give them charity. Thinking about it, however, charity does not require suffering. You can give charitably to someone less fortunate than yourself without the need for them to be suffering
@@zayfardplays7742 even if I concede the first point it doesn't follow that without suffering in some sense there would still be charity? Trickle that down to the person less fortunate than you eventually there will be a point at which suffering exists in order to grow in charity. But even still, how would your worldview provide a better solution?
very well then heaven don't exist since there can't be no free will without suffering according to your very own words; except if heaven is simply a place for soulless puppets
The Bible says that Gods will continues on after this life. Only then are we going to understand the scope and scale of what’s going on. There’s only one way to get into heaven. Repentance, and surrender. Trust in Christ like you would trust a parachute, ask of him a new heart. Invite him into your heart to stay. A Christian is saved because he is faced with his sin and he turns from it not because he has to, but because he wants to. Because he trusts in Jesus and is truly sorry for his sins and he knows the sacrifice Jesus made paying the debt to the wages of our sin. We couldn’t possibly understand fully what heaven will be like, but the Bible says a few things, and one of them is that there is no possibility of sin in heaven. It is not a worldly place, so it makes sense that their would be no worldly desire for sin. Nothing impure will enter heaven. Corinthians 12:1 Paul tells us a story about a man he knew that got caught up in heaven and the man is unable to describe it. It’s inexpressible to man. Revelations 22:14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes. That they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outsiders are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.”
@@artax7664 good and evil dosen't exist, they're only words to describe differents aspect of the very same thing : Reality; the entire point of the sin narrative is the result of a primitiv binary mind who believes mind and matter are somehow separated when it is in fact absolutely not the case, we are our brain what you call 'heaven" is merely absolute nothingness, and nothing else the whole point of christianity have always been to deny life as a cursed abomination and embrace the Void, suicide, the cross, by becoming monks and eventually disappearing into the black silence of the beyond at the moment of death; orthodox christianity and their monks are the pinacle of this toxic mentality, their monasteries are filled with skulls and crosses all over the place, they worship death and split on life there is nothing other than the Reality in which we live in, all the rest is Fiction, accept Reality as it is, it is no use to try fleeing from it, make an effort, and you'll one day be able to find beauty through every aspects of life, from sex to death, and maybe even one day you'll realize that you are in fact the God you always searched for, when you'll be enough mature and courageous to accept there is no heavenly caring father in the skies I recommand you to read nietzsche
@@artax7664 _"so it makes sense that there is no worldly desire for sin"_ So are you claiming it is posible for your god to to create a place where both freewill and no evil and suffering can exist. Yet he chose not to do this with the earth 🤔 why was this exactly ? Oh and PS why should anyone give a t#$$ what the bible says about anything ? Until you demonstrate it to be anything more than the projected knowledge world views and morality of the uneducated superstitious immoral iron age Tribesmen that authored it ( just like every other man made "holy book " ) I'm not in the slightest bit interested what it says. Is that clear.???
@@trumpbellend6717 That’s the beauty of it, you don’t have to be interested! Free will is a wonderful thing. I will say though, we can probably both agree that there is only one truth, it’s silly to think that everyone gets to go to their version of the afterlife, even if it’s just the nothingness that atheists claim. There’s so much more faith involved in atheism, and so much more evidence that the Bible is the true, living word of God. I can see that you have a little chip on your shoulder about religion. I hate religion, I’m a Christian, it’s not religion. I can’t convince you or anyone else that that my faith is real, nor is it really my responsibility. Believe what you will and I guess we will see what happens on the day the reaper comes for both of us. If I’m wrong, and there is nothingness, then I guess I lived a life full of love and gratitude for everything I’ve ever had in life. If you’re wrong, we’ll, you know the deal. I pray for souls like you, I do every night.
@@artax7664 lol OK first thing to note you completely failed to address my point about freewill and a lack of suffering not being mutually exclusive in heaven and why therefore God created evil on earth. 🤔 Secondly with regards to freewill so just how did that work out for pharaoh when he wanted to let the jews go but GOD HARDENED HIS HEART , because he wanted to have a bit more fun first. You know a few more plagues , babies to kill ect. Or how about Peter and the whole " you will deny me 3 times before the cock crows" stuff . Did he not have a say in the matter, could he not change his mind ? You see this is the problem you cant have free will if the future is predetermined or if god interferes with people's decisions as he does many times In the bible. Think of all these hundreds of so called prophesies in the bible , you have surely heard of the BUTTERFLY EFFECT were one tiny tiny change in an action has huge earth shattering implications for the future. Well if we truly had freewill then those aforementioned prophecies are out the window. You talk of "evidence" to support the biblical claims 😂🤣😅🤣🤣😅 Well if that was the case then you would not require "faith" as that's what the religious use because they DO NOT have evidence. *TELL YOU WHAT HERE IS A CHALLENGE FOR YOU* in front of all your fellow gullible theists , they are even welcome to help you out let's dispense with all the evasion BS and *pretend that science has no big bang or evolution* Now let's see what you regard as evidence FOR THE CHRISTIAN GOD. But remember this has to be sufficient to justify belief in a talking snake & donkey , giants , witches magic and zombies. It must also be sufficient to justify belief in a MUD FIGURINE becoming a living breathing man and a rib becoming a woman. Along with the earth being covered in a crystalline dome ( firmament) that keeps the waters out 🤣😅 but has windows in it to let the rain in. This dome also contains both the sun and the moon which the bible says are the same size and stars that can fall to earth 😁😁 ( most stars are thousands of times bigger than the earth) This evidence must be totaly conclusive and also be able to demonstrate why other explanations can be ruled out . For example any of the other thousands of proposed gods throughout history ( zeus thor buddha Mohammed ect. Along with a deistic god who created everything but wants and has no interactions with man . Also a joint creation by multiple gods or the possibility that science will make a discovery in the future that shows a natural explanation or maybe will never be discovered but actually exists. It must also be able to debunk multiverses and constant cycles of contraction & expansion, ect ect. That require absolutely nothing supernatural. Furthermore your evidence should be of sufficient quality to convince that this god really is concerned with who we sleep with and in what position, what we Can eat and wear and cares that we cut of part of our genitaila. It should also convince us that the dead can come back to life and that the OWNING and beating of fellow human beings with a rod is moral. I could go on and on but I predict right now that you wont even attempt any of this because you know it exposes your irrational hypocrisy evasion and attempts to discredit observable reality for the dishonest ramblings of a #### My guess is you will just ignore all this and fall back on the old tried and tested " science can't explain X or I dont understand Y " god of the gap garbage. Or maybe just latch onto one or two you regard as weakest in a feeble attempt to apear rational . *GO FOR IT SOFT LAD , IM WAITING WITH BAITED BREATH*
The mental gymnastics you preform to reach your conclusions is baffling!! You contradict yourself and misrepresent the truth to believe a book over 2k years old written by men who didn't have the information we do now and they got a lot wrong but you'll make up any excuse to ignore reality just for a false Faith you've been brainwashed into believing in!!
@@dragosflorinvasile We no longer think it acceptable to *"Buy your slaves from the heathen nations that surround you"* Nor that *"if you beat your male or female slave with a rod and they do not die for a day or two"* *"There shall be NO PUNISHMENT for they are your PROPERTY and your money"* I would say that is a step in the right direction wouldn't you ? 😜 Modern societies think that the gathering of sticks on a sabath is not nor ever was immoral and worthy of stoning to death. The same applies also to our unruly rebellious children who disobey their parents ( sounds like most teenagers to me ) . Thankfully a judge today recognizes a girl who has been raped and did not scream is actually a VICTIM and not deserving of death as the bible dictates.
@@dragosflorinvasile Of course these things happened in the past but there is a difference in how we regard the morality of such things now. We no longer think that the percieved whims of invisible subjective beings should be used to judge the morality or otherwise of those things. Indeed we understand that a girl who has been raped is VICTIM not a criminal deserving of death regardless of how loudly they screamed. So NO our moral system is NOT _" essentially the same as people had in the past"_ Our children today are often unruly rebellious and disobey their parents just as children in the past did. However we do NOT think this is deserving if stoning to death. We have IMPROVED our morality by ignoring the filth endorsed by bible.
@@trumpbellend6717 Yeah man we have improved! Why just the other day I read an article about a university professor wanting to normalize pedophilia. Thanks secularism! 😊
There is no point in this argument because everything is only based on deductive rather than the effectiveness that we see. Religion only provides relief according to rationalization rather than clear clarity.
Let’s say you’re traveling in a car, you’re on the highway and all of a sudden you see a ginormous crash. Five cars toppled onto eachother, one of them is blazing with black smoke, ambulances, police and sirens of all kind. You say to yourself, “Man, this is terrible! There’s so much suffering!” I heavily doubt that next you would say, “Man, nobody made this car or highway because I saw that suffering on the edge of the road.” That’s a gigantic leap of logic! Except that’s what’s happening when we say “because evil exists, Nothing created everything” We are driving this car called life and we see evil and suffering all around us on the highway, it’s a big leap of logic to say that nothing created everything because of this suffering we see.
@@paulcooper1223 Forgive me, I insinuated everyone who does not believe in God says that. If you watch the video from 00:00 to 0:19 though, I believe that’s why this video was made. Some people believe that because of the presence of evil and suffering in this world, God can’t logically exist, so there can be no creator God of anything.
@@Elijah-pf9gi Not believing a god exists doesn't mean tbey believe nothing created everything. This is a strawman. It's such a poor argument it was called out on Viced Rhino's rebuttal of this video...
@@paulcooper1223 I’m curious to learn more, what do people who believe that God doesn’t exist think created the universe? More specifically you yourself if you are willing to say.
@@Elijah-pf9gi What makes you think the universe was created? If we don't know what happened before the big bang, why insert answers that could be wrong? William Lane Craig should have learned its not a good idea to talk about cosmology after being corrected so often by Sean Carroll.
The takeaway isn't that god per se does not exist, it's that an all-powerful, all-loving god doesn't. You're basically begging the question of whether god is all-powerful and all-loving. How did you know? I wonder how you can justify that definition without saying "for the bible tells me so." The free will solution may be used against the problem of evil but does not solve the problem of suffering. People have horrible disease that are not their doing at all. God allows suffering as the bible states. There is no logical constraint that forces him to make people suffer. Isaiah 45:7 The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating disaster (other translations use evil); I am the LORD who does all these things God isn't good all the time.
The existence of evil and suffering neither proves nor disproves an all-powerful, all-loving God. But, the atheist has a bigger problem. If God does not exist, then there is no basis for "good" or "evil" or "suffering," there is only "is." None of us can determine God's reasons for allowing all forms of evil, or suffering even though God may have good reasons for allowing it (read Job, or the Gospels). But we can know, based on His Word and many eyewitnesses, that God is real and that He offers hope and peace through faith in His Son, Jesus. There is yet to come a time when God's children (those who follow Jesus as Savior) will no longer suffer from the pains of this world. That's the point.
Have you seen the second part of this video? It deals with some of those points. None of us are “good”, only God is good and everything else doesn’t quite measure up. Suffering is subjective, and the Bible says that He will give you peace with Him. Romans 1:1-5 Therefore since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our lord Jesus Christ through whom we have gained access by faith into His grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God. Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character, and character hope. And hope does not put us to shame, because Gods love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.
@@BrannonSG Wrong, the existence of evil and suffering demonstrate that your God ( if he existed ) is not omnibenevolent. He is a slavery endorsing genocidal monster who cares not for the wellbeing of humanity.
Notice that it's no part of the argument to say that "all suffering is deserved." Also, why think that free will is "nonsense" that can't be explained consistently? It seems like many philosophers today who are proponents of libertarian free will agree that it is necessary for free will that antecedent conditions must be insufficient to causally determine one's choice. - RF Admin
@@drcraigvideos You literally said suffering happens because God wants it to happen. Free will implies free will. Free means unrestricted. Will has a lot of complex definitions but I think we could all agree an example of will or willpower would be resisting temptation. Will is essentially one's mental fortitude to control their own thoughts and behavior. Every human's will is restricted as no human can always control their thoughts, emotions, or behavior. Will being restricted means will isn't free, meaning free will doesn't exist. Simple as.
@@youcantbeatk7006 So if humans cannot control their own behavior, why do you even care about suffering? Normally I don't comment on these videos, but man this is so bad. In your view, suffering is just determined anyways so who cares? Why care about something if you have zero control over it?
@@ethanbunn1948 Everyone doesn't suffer the same amount. If you're thirsty but you don't get out of bed you're suffer but if you get up and get a glass of water you'll suffer less. Did you think about this at all? Also I'm describing free will in the most literal and basic definition. You're the one trying to redefine free will and that's not even what a strawman is.
GOD created a world without suffering but adam and eve chose to believe satan over GOD and tell this very day people still choose satan the defeated liar over all loving GOD
Why did your god create any of this knowing full well what would happen? By the way, there was no adam and eve, nor talking snakes or magic fruit, so your comment holds no weight at all.
@@2l84me8 Your existence serves a very specific and unique purpose. God could say that He is patient, merciful, and just. But how would He go about proving that He has any of those virtues? Here's when people like you come into the picture! People like you exist so that we, the "remnant," may not only understand these virtues, but acknowledge that God has them. Not because you are any of those things, no... In fact, you are clearly quite the opposite as your comments reveal (Mala fides). If God were truly the tyrant you project, then people like you would not have been allowed to exist. More so, my existence as well as many others would have been better without people like you... but at the end of the day, you are necessary for us to increase in knowledge and understanding. Thank you btw! So far, I have learned that God is patient and merciful, but I can't wait for the lesson in justice! LOL
@@kevinmiller6443 No, you are asserting your god exists with literally no evidence nor demonstrated and begging the question as well. I exist because my parents had sex, not because your all powerful, imaginary god friend couldn’t be bothered to do something on his own.
Oh, come on! Do you really believe that suffering is ACT OF FREE WILL? Do you really believe that all suffering comes from human choice and people cannot be free without having option to make that choice? That is nonsense!
I remembered this verse when Joseph answered his brothers:
"But Joseph replied, "Don't be afraid of me. Am I God, that I can punish you? You intended to harm me, but God intended it all for good. He brought me to this position so I could save the lives of many people." Genesis 50:19-20
Sometimes, we do not understand how God acts. Joseph had to be arrested and sold by his brothers in order to fulfill God's amazing plan for his life.
I don't agree with your debunking.
God didn't have to create humans with the tendency or the ability to have evil thoughts or do evil deeds, but he did.
Removing an option of possible deeds is not limiting free will any more than not giving humans the ability to change the hue of our skin like chameleons.
We can't become translucent at will. Is this a limitation on free will?
The point about a dentist being good because while hurting a patient, they ultimately do a good deed by healing them is also flawed.
Don't you think a benevolent dentist would have their instruments cause no pain, if possible?
In addition, I don't think it's a very good idea to end a video by saying "Atheists can't handle the truth so they make up lies". Insulting people doesn't make your flawed arguments much better.
so u think God believes in utilitarianism rather than character Development where in each person is unique and has his own story. we all have our own problems and up bringing, but in the end is suffering is temporary when we learn that such things could occur we become more great full not all will see it this way. Suffering don't even mean evil i mean an example is exercising i feel pain and suffer from soreness but ultimately see it as healthy. Even though the world is full of pain and suffering it will never blind me to see the beautiful things God has Given me and in the end God will wipe away all the pain all the tears. ( my opinion would only be accepted if the christian world view is accepted) and u know what it's ok if you see this us a bad argument, it's honestly your choice to accept if the pain of suffering you have is a burden or a challenge to over come
Excuse me please. I went to the end of the video looking for the insult you wrote of but didn't find one. What did you find insulting about the end ?
I’m a Christian, but it remains very difficult for me to accept that God allows people to be born with horrific diseases or disabilities; or that He allows someone to rape a child over and over and over again. How would you feel about Superman if he just stood by and watched as a little child was raped and murdered? If anyone has a meaningful response to my comments, I would genuinely be interested to read it. This has been a big battle for me lately. [NB: See my updated understanding of this matter below in the replies to this comment.]
Or how about when a tree falls on a car and kills someone
I had the same questions and this video that I watched explains it better than I ever could....th-cam.com/video/V2eNyrknOAk/w-d-xo.htmlfeature=shared
I feel exactly the same way.
How else can Evil be shown its juxtaposition if good always wins? God sees infinity. Our life is a vapor. Those children are to be with the lord for eternity. Those tormentors? never to see the lord again. Now what is fair? We challenge God with finite judgment. When in reality he is challenged with infinite judgment.
So perhaps the Evil is too much... Well, a child only remains a child when its protected. How far will existence go in order to reveal itself? Imagine being a father and seeing all the children around you laugh and play. None of them will ever see you because they have never been without you. It's nice to have something to look up to. What if you don't?
You've stated a deeply troubling problem not about God's existence but the nature of God. If God is all powerful and loving, why the excruciating suffering to innocent victims by nature or twisted people? There's no satisfying answer at all for reasonable, emotionally sensitive people. What I have learned in my studies is that there are and have been very smart and sensitive people, who nonetheless maintain a belief in God. This God may not be so omnipotent-- all powerful -- and needs our help, my help, your help, to relieve suffering in this world. And piety or Christian belief in this view still consists in 'doing the good God wants done, if only He could'. You have to remain thoughtful about what is the good you should do. And, nobody knows if it means much ultimately - the good we try to do, but it means something to the people we care about and to us. Our faith must be that it does mean something after all.
Such a good video thank you for sharing 🙏
Couple of things. One is that if God wanted to create free will he could have nonetheless limited the amount of suffering, and two, what has not been taken into account is enormous suffering from natural, non human causes.
Then as humans we would never truly learn the severity of things if I murdered someone God lowers the suffering we wouldn't be understanding in a sense of how bad the act was that we committed suffering as humans also builds us. Suffering also isn't a thing God has created neither is evil its the lack of good
Thank you for all the wonderful videos!
0:30 - 1:15 No, this is not a good argument, but this is also a very poor representation of the argument as presented by most atheist philosophers. In essence, it is a strawman. This also decontextualizes the claims being made. First, we need to understand that this argument is not an argument made in a vacuum, but is a response to the claim that an all powerful, all knowing, all loving creator deity exists. The idea here is simple: an all powerful deity can prevent evil from existing. An all knowing deity knows how to exercise the power for this prevention, and is also aware of the existence of such evil in absence of its prevention. An all loving deity would want to prevent evil from existing, and so, it would be against its will for evil to not be prevented. In conjunction, this means that an all powerful, all knowing, all loving creator deity can create the universe without evil, knows how to do so, would want to do so, and knows that it should do so. If so, then there is no reason a universe with evil should be able to exist. Yet this is the universe we are in. We exist in a universe that should be impossible in the case that an all powerful, all knowing, all loving creator deity exists and created our universe. Therefore, the existence claim must be false. I know this characterization seems superficially similar to the one in the video, but it is not, because the implication from the premise to the conclusion is in the additional details that I included and the video omitted, and the truth of the premise is also something the video contests, but does so because it omits the details supporting the premise. For example, the detail about the fact that this is a creator deity is important: it means the existence of the universe occurs solely due to the will of the deity, and so is not a mere accident outside their control. This is crucial for the argument, but the video strawmans it by omitting this.
1:15 - 1:20 As poorly phrased as they are in the video, no, they are not, but the ones in the genuine argument are indeed logically inconsistent.
1:29 - 1:33 No, there is no _explicit_ contradiction, but there is an _implicit_ contradiction, and I explained it.
1:34 - 1:51 Insofar as these propositions are external to the proof and not explicitly stated as premises, yes, they are assumptions, but I assume this is not what the video means when it calls them "assumptions." What the video means when it calls them assumptions is that they are statements without sufficient justification, statements that are being taken as true for granted and without proof, but could very well be false. But is it actually the case that these statements are unjustified? No, it is not.
1:51 - 2:07 Why do you need to smuggle in the qualifier "necessarily" here? Are you trying to build a strawman and sneak it past the viewers?
2:07 - 2:40 There are many problems with this objection. Problem 0: it assumes that free will exists in the universe, even though there is no evidence that there free will exists, and there is evidence against its existence. Problem 1: the existence of free will is not stated anywhere in the Bible or within Christian doctrine. In fact, Calvinism is inconsistent with the existence of free will. You have to reject other doctrines in order to accept free will as something that, the all powerful, all knowing, all loving creator deity that you call God, wants. In fact, in a universe created by an all powerful, all knowing, all loving creator deity, everything in that universe, as well as the very existence itself of that universe, merely occurs by the will of said deity. So there actually cannot be free will in such a universe. So not only is free will unbiblical and untheological, but it is actually inconsistent with the existence claim being proposed by monotheism. Problem 2: if it actually is the case that it is not logically possible for free will to exist without evil also occurring, then an all loving creator deity would not want to create a universe where free will exists. So this objection the video makes simply backfires and just implies that the all powerful, all knowing creator deity of the universe is necessarily not loving, if it must create a universe with free will. Particularly striking is that there is not even a reason an all loving creator deity should want free will, even if free will did not contradict the absence of evil. In fact, as noted by problem 0, if it is indeed the case that an all powerful, all knowing, all loving creator deity does exist, then that deity most likely _did_ not want a universe with free will. But this just begs the question, though. Problem 3: contrary to what the video states, it actually is not the case that it is impossible to create a universe with free will where no one chooses to do evil. Some people choose evil, and some people choose good. An all powerful, all knowing, all loving creator deity can simply choose to only create those who will freely choose to do good, and not create those who will freely choose to do evil. Alternatively, the deity can create people which have the intent to carry out an evil act, but then prevent the act from being successful. This would not infringe on free will, at least if we ignore problem 1, but it also prevents evil from happening. Problem 4: in relation to problems 2 and 3, this argument creates another internal inconsistency within Christianity: mainly, that no evil occurs in Heaven. If it is not possible for people in Heaven to choose to do evil, then they have no free will. But if God wanted to create a universe with free will, then God would not want for people to ultimately spend eternity in Heaven. If God did want people to be in Heaven, then would not want to create free will. If free will does exist in Heaven, then this completely contradicts the claim that free will cannot be created in such a way that evil never gets chosen. Any two of the three claims will contradict the third. Problem 5: this entire argument only accounts for anthropogenic evil, but it fails to account for the alleged existence of Satan and demons, and it fails to account for the existece of viruses, cancer, and mental disorders. It fails to account for natural disasters.
To be continued in the replies...
I’d rather buy a book and read! Who’s gonna read all this?
@@wacayssuleyman2380 lmao exactly. Dude wrote all that for nothing.
I’ll play I guess.
When arguing your points you should leave out religious doctrine, especially those of which twist the word of God in various ways. The best approach philosophically for this argument is to keep it relatively “simple” and stick to the argument of all loving, all knowing all powerful creator. But when referencing Gods word, stick to His actual word and not interpretations or misrepresentations. Christianity teaches us that the Bible is Gods word and that’s it. No man given extras included. That being said the Bible is filled with examples of free will. Genesis 1:26 says that God created man in His image. Unlike animals which act mainly on instinct, God gave us qualities to resemble our creator. Qualities like love, justice and yes, like our creator free will. The Bible encourages us to choose life by listening to Gods voice. Leaving out free will would render all of this creation meaningless, even cruel, therefore cannot be an all loving God. Prison is not love my friend. Free will comes with the deal. It’s a sacrifice, much like the sacrifices He’s willing to make at various times for His love to us. The obvious and extremely important example being sacrificing His only son to pay for the wages of sin.
Besides this I think you don’t play fair, or even honestly when addressing the arguments. Your original statement is clearly addressed in the “assumptions” section which then leaves your first point moot, and your address on the assumptions confusing because the video clearly states what he means by assumptions.
The rest can be addressed with my previous comments. Free will must exist for an all loving creator.
If free will must exist for God to be all loving, and also that He is all loving, then we could probably assume He would have to love the man who commits evil as much as the man who turns from sin. He would probably preserve His word through the ages and provide for us a way to Him. Starting to sound familiar? Read the Bible my friend. God loves you as much as He does me, but in order for that love to be genuine, we must freely choose Him. He provided a way to Him, all of us.
@@leonardu6094 The reply right below proves you super wrong.
@@angelmendez-rivera351 not going to lie, seeing his comment made me want to read it fully and try to understand your point.
perfect answer
Thanks for keeping the comments section open! I like to read all these temper tantrums as they vindicate exactly what is written:
" Whoever corrects a scoffer gets himself abuse, and he who reproves a wicked man incurs injury. Do not reprove a scoffer, or he will hate you; reprove a wise man, and he will love you. Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be still wiser; teach a righteous man, and he will increase in learning. " - Proverbs 9: 7-9
There aren't very many wise people out there, which is to be expected (Matthew 7: 13-14). LOL
"when people show how I'm wrong, that proves I'm right!"
Christian apologetics is in such sad state. Verses from the Bible claiming that people will disagree with the Bible mean nothing to anyone who isn't indoctrinated to automatically and blindly just accept that the Bible is true.
@@Locust13 Scoff all you want "K Hewett," but if you wanted the Bible to be false, then I recommend not proving it true.
“He was despised and rejected- a man of sorrows, acquainted with deepest grief. We turned our backs on him and looked the other way. He was despised, and we did not care. Yet it was our weaknesses he carried; it was our sorrows that weighed him down. And we thought his troubles were a punishment from God, a punishment for his own sins! But he was pierced for our rebellion, crushed for our sins. He was beaten so we could be whole. He was whipped so we could be healed. All of us, like sheep, have strayed away. We have left God’s paths to follow our own. Yet the Lord laid on him the sins of us all. He was oppressed and treated harshly, yet he never said a word. He was led like a lamb to the slaughter. And as a sheep is silent before the shearers, he did not open his mouth. Unjustly condemned, he was led away. No one cared that he died without descendants, that his life was cut short in midstream. But he was struck down for the rebellion of my people. He had done no wrong and had never deceived anyone. But he was buried like a criminal; he was put in a rich man’s grave. But it was the Lord’s good plan to crush him and cause him grief. Yet when his life is made an offering for sin, he will have many descendants. He will enjoy a long life, and the Lord’s good plan will prosper in his hands. When he sees all that is accomplished by his anguish, he will be satisfied. And because of his experience, my righteous servant will make it possible for many to be counted righteous, for he will bear all their sins. I will give him the honors of a victorious soldier, because he exposed himself to death. He was counted among the rebels. He bore the sins of many and interceded for rebels.”
Isaiah 53:3-12 NLT
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16
God loves you so much and showed that by sending His Son to die for us so that we may inherit eternal life. We deserve hell but He gave us heaven through faith in Jesus. He took the punishment we deserved and by putting our faith in Him we can be saved. The Key To Eternal Life:
th-cam.com/video/uZdv-TtiMkg/w-d-xo.html
For evidence for Christianity check out
th-cam.com/users/drcraigvideos
and th-cam.com/users/CrossExamined
because if Jesus really rose from the dead it is the most important fact ever!
God bless y’all!
So god supposedly sacrificed himself to himself on a cross to exploit his own loophole and save humanity from his own wrath all because a clone woman eat magic fruit after being convinced by a talking snake?
@@2l84me8 "This world is like a small room that's running out of oxygen and there's only one door out and it's a very low door; so low that those who refuse to humble themselves can't get to the fresh air. Salvation is through Jesus Christ alone." - Ray Comfort
John 10:9 "I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved." -Jesus Christ
An urgent question to ask yourself:
Am I good enough to get into heaven? th-cam.com/video/TCSUKIhjevo/w-d-xo.html
@@toniamcdonald1838 Really? You’re going to use the absolute worst religious apologist besides kent Hovind to sell me your religion with threats? Try providing actual credible evidence that such a danger actually exists and that this jesus of yours is the “cure”.
I’m not close minded, you’re just not good at persuading others.
To me its actually quite easy to explain evil. God is letting us see the world being run by us. We and sin are the cause of evil and suffering.
run by us, mean no god intervention? we and sin cause evil?
the bible state clearly that god created evil.
@@pepejulianonziema69 hey newbie stay at the kiddies table. Evil is not what the original Hebrew says. The word translated "evil" is the word ra. It also means sorrow, calamity, disaster, afflictions, and adversity. Too easy. Better come up with something that has not been explained a billion times.
@Anon Ymous what a victim mentality you have. Take some personal responsibility, it will do you some good.
@Anon Ymous "point"? You made no point. You like most atheists blame God for your actions. That is the only "point" you made.
@Anon Ymous predetermination doesn’t throw the free will out of the window!!
God has written down the choices that you would make cause he’s an omniscient and knows the choices before you make them! It’s predetermined according to God and you’re living it without knowing what’s written while having the right to choose!
You say it isn't possible for a world with both free will and no suffering to exist, does heaven have free will? Is there suffering in heaven?
If you think that there is free will in heaven, and no suffering in heaven, then you've admitted that God CAN create a place with both free will and no suffering, he just intentionally CHOSE to create a world with a bunch of suffering because the Bible depicts him as a sadistic, evil, monster. Good thing there's no evidence that he exists.
That's a false dichotomy. We believe that we are in a process of sanctification and once we move past this life we will be fully sanctified. So having made the ultimate free will choice to believe on him our wills shall be set once we enter heaven. (That's how I personally see it anyway)
@@malichl4246 I'm not sure you've really answered the question. Is there "free will" in heaven or not?
How is it a "free will" choice to believe in "God" if the alternative is eternity in hell? Is your "God" really saying: "Believe in me or else"? What kind of a monster is that?
@@Nai61a I’ve seen two answers to this question
1. There is no free will in Heaven
2. You are removed from Heaven if you sin
@@justgaming1952 Interesting. Just to clarify, in point 2, do you mean that you are already in heaven, but if you sin, you are thrown out?
If there is no free will, you would not be able to choose to sin (or not), so being thrown out for something about which you had no free choice seems bizarre.
@@Nai61a no, those are two distinct answers.
The first answer bring that you are just stripped of your free will, and the other possibility being that you have free will in heaven but if you choose to sin your are removed.
If your god cannot create a universe without unnecessary suffering then he is not all-powerful nor all good.
Why is your notion of free will worth all this harm and pain in the end when your god could have very easily not created anyone that would intentionally harm others?
Your god either doesn't exist or he is sadistic.
Not to mention that these beliefs are often paired with a belief in a heaven within which there is no unnecessary suffering _as well as_ free will. How is one supposed to take a belief system seriously when it says "Y exists because X cannot exist, and also X exists"?
On the contrary, God did create a perfect world without suffering, which was called the Garden of Eden. It was humanity's disobedience that lead to the downfall of mankind. When you truly love someone, you give them a choice: either follow me or don't. True faith isn't blind, but rather a choice that is freely made. How can we grow physically, mentally and spiritually if we don't learn from experience? True grace is appreciated when we go through difficult times.
P.S: Even though we've fallen from grace, Abba Yahuah still open a path back to Him through His holy son Jesus Christ. There is no greater love than giving your life to save others.
@@john144 That's just a story, my dude.
@@john144 Prove your god exists and demonstrate your claims are valid. What kind of nonsense god allows cancer, suffering and natural disasters all because a clone woman ate a piece of magic fruit after listening to a talking snake? That has absolutely nothing to do with “love” nor experience.
@@2l84me8 The evidence of God's existence is all around us: the creation of this universe (a big bang in an empty vacuum of space); matter colliding in the perfect sequence to form reality; the miracle of life in this world; the symmetry of creation developing a pattern, even in the smallest detail of our genetics; the inherited traits of knowing right from wrong (common morality and ethics) built within the majority of us. These are just some of things that I can imagine that displays the signatures of a creator. This can't be by random chance nor are we an accident. Every single one of us has a purpose, you have a purpose in this world/life.
And as I previously stated, death was introduce with the introduction of sin. Eve was created by using Adam's rips but isn't a clone. She is her unique person who is physically in union of Adam.
Do you know how many Christians are saying that if Jesus did not save us from literally eternal hell but only from finite hell then His work on the cross meant absolutely nothing because eventually all people will be in heaven anyways.
Think about it, let's take an analogy, imagine if you would be caught for a serious crime in a third world country and you would face 30 years prison time in horrifying conditions, where you would need to live in a small cell with 15 other inmates sleeping on the floor should to shoulder, rats and cockroaches roaming around the food is disgusting the tropical heat is unbearable etc. But then some person would come to you and say "I will make you walk free; you won't need to spend one day in that prison and more than that I will give you 10 million dollars to start a new life".
Would you tell him "That's nothing! What you will do for me is absolutely nothing, it means nothing, it is nothing, it changes nothing!
Yet think about it, Jesus is not saving you from our prisons, He is saving you from hell itself which is 10 000 times worse at least and where you may spend thousands of years without any peace and hope at all, just constant immense torture and that is nothing? Jesus would do nothing for you? What kind of twisted thinking is that?
your first "rebuttal" implies that either heaven isn't a place that god can create, or that free will doesn't exist in heaven. If free will doesn't exist in heaven, that means god doesn't values free will that much, as he is stripping it from you for all eternity.
That’s an interesting points ❤
It doesn’t necessarily mean God doesn’t love free will.
For example Death wouldn’t be there in heaven that doesn’t mean God doesn’t like death.
Death is the way to meet God 🎉
I once met an atheist on Facebook and I gave him the answer: "remember God doesn't have to infringe your rights"
But is God bound by the laws of logic?
The laws of logic are just expressions of necessary truths which are grounded in God's perfect rationality. So, far from being "bound" by them, God is the basis for them. - RF Admin
craig simple pushes the burden of proof from his shoulders to the atheists in that debate against hitchens
Where is atheism's proof that intelligence came from nothing, life came from non-life? The more atheists try to prove naturalism the more they disprove it. Max Planck said science advances one funeral at a time. Don't put too much faith in Secular Religion thumping humanists... and their funding sources.
@@MJ-jf7zw atheism doesn't claim that
@@MJ-jf7zw atheism is simply a disbelief in an Omniscient God and ideas of omniscient Gods given by theists
@@tusharyadav4982 what does it claim then?
@@MJ-jf7zw that there isn't an omniscient God
Good and evil are theological terms
Clearly not. Even non-religious people recognize evil when they see it. - RF Admin
God is able to wipe out all evil. And He will wipe out all evil. In His timing, not ours.
Lol God created evil according to the biblical narratives cupcake.
@@trumpbellend6717 no he doesn't
why will god do that in his time when he knows millions are suffering till he does so?
@@trumpbellend6717 Show me
he created the possibility of evil
It's called SIN; quite singing an suffering can be stopped.
What about all the people who don't have a choice? What about the stillborn, or people who die of diseases or the sins of others? They had no choice about sinning or not sinning. The idea of god testing us with sin or not is flawed itself why would an omnicient god even conduct an experiment if he knew exactly how it would turn out?
I have saltines in my cupboard with more structural integrity than the narrator’s arguments.
Yeah all because bad stuff occurs in the world doesn't mean God doesn't exist. You can't just jump to that conclusion.
One day everything will die b/c that is the nature of life. If things did not die then it would be another world, not this world.
@@africanhistory , yep death is natural and one day we'll all pass on. Death is inevitable and part of the natural order. But with death, comes new life.
Nice quote mining.
Do elaborate on what you mean please.
@@Rotisiv He means he cherrypicked the quotes from atheists that suited his argument avoiding those that did not.
@@africanhistorywas he supposed to put the whole book in the video? You can go read the books.
That moment, when you realize evil actually proves God exists.
@@AnonYmous-yj9ib Really, tell me how objective evil exists if there is no God.
The greatest good you can ever see from absolute evil is the truth of the UTTER depravity of man without God. Even Angels are hopelessly VILE without God. No prideful being would believe they really, really, need God until someone can observe the suffering created by Satan and people who follow him (unwittingly is still no excuse) and deny the existence of a vile Satan and Good God.
God allows evil, because man allows it...Genesis 1:27 says: "God created man in his own image..." He created man to make his own choices, just like God. He also gave dominion over the earth to humankind. (Genesis 1:28-30). God cannot take the dominion of the earth away from man at this point, because he would be violating his word, and that would be unjust. It is invariably, a LEGAL CONTRACT. Man has free will to make decisions, even if it means those decisions are inherently evil, because of the fall of Adam. (Romans 5:14). The good news is Jesus Christ came to free us from that fallen nature, by giving us a new nature through him.(Romans 5:15).
A Diest has no such conflicts. God is God and does God things that are far removed from our comprehension. All we are then doing is projecting our logical on a God beyond our logic.
If what God is and does is incomprehensible, then how could you ever reasonably conclude that deism is true? - RF Admin
OK lets look at the "it may not be possible to create a world where people always freely choose to do what is morally good" ... then he isn't all powerful. If God is all powerful he can do ANYTHING including a world where people always freely choose to do good. Also this doesn't account for the evil of Hell.
constant
On the "we allow suffering to allow a greater good". Yes we do because we are limited. If we where all powerful there would be no need to allow suffering for the greater good as we would have the power to produce the greater good with no suffering.
You forget that without something to fear you cannot grow in courage. Without someone to care for you could not grow in compassion. Without those who are in need you could not grow in charity and love.
@@malichl4246 in a world without suffering there is no need for bravery.
You do not need suffering to care for someone.
In a world without suffering why do you need charity?
Love does not require suffering
@@zayfardplays7742 love and charity go hand in hand. To love is to will the good of another so without an opposite how could this be achieved?
@@malichl4246 love and charity do not go hand in hand. You do not to love someone to give them charity.
Thinking about it, however, charity does not require suffering. You can give charitably to someone less fortunate than yourself without the need for them to be suffering
@@zayfardplays7742 even if I concede the first point it doesn't follow that without suffering in some sense there would still be charity? Trickle that down to the person less fortunate than you eventually there will be a point at which suffering exists in order to grow in charity. But even still, how would your worldview provide a better solution?
very well then heaven don't exist since there can't be no free will without suffering according to your very own words; except if heaven is simply a place for soulless puppets
The Bible says that Gods will continues on after this life. Only then are we going to understand the scope and scale of what’s going on. There’s only one way to get into heaven. Repentance, and surrender. Trust in Christ like you would trust a parachute, ask of him a new heart. Invite him into your heart to stay. A Christian is saved because he is faced with his sin and he turns from it not because he has to, but because he wants to. Because he trusts in Jesus and is truly sorry for his sins and he knows the sacrifice Jesus made paying the debt to the wages of our sin. We couldn’t possibly understand fully what heaven will be like, but the Bible says a few things, and one of them is that there is no possibility of sin in heaven. It is not a worldly place, so it makes sense that their would be no worldly desire for sin. Nothing impure will enter heaven.
Corinthians 12:1 Paul tells us a story about a man he knew that got caught up in heaven and the man is unable to describe it. It’s inexpressible to man.
Revelations 22:14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes. That they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outsiders are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.”
@@artax7664 good and evil dosen't exist, they're only words to describe differents aspect of the very same thing : Reality; the entire point of the sin narrative is the result of a primitiv binary mind who believes mind and matter are somehow separated when it is in fact absolutely not the case, we are our brain
what you call 'heaven" is merely absolute nothingness, and nothing else
the whole point of christianity have always been to deny life as a cursed abomination and embrace the Void, suicide, the cross, by becoming monks and eventually disappearing into the black silence of the beyond at the moment of death; orthodox christianity and their monks are the pinacle of this toxic mentality, their monasteries are filled with skulls and crosses all over the place, they worship death and split on life
there is nothing other than the Reality in which we live in, all the rest is Fiction, accept Reality as it is, it is no use to try fleeing from it, make an effort, and you'll one day be able to find beauty through every aspects of life, from sex to death, and maybe even one day you'll realize that you are in fact the God you always searched for, when you'll be enough mature and courageous to accept there is no heavenly caring father in the skies
I recommand you to read nietzsche
@@artax7664 _"so it makes sense that there is no worldly desire for sin"_
So are you claiming it is posible for your god to to create a place where both freewill and no evil and suffering can exist. Yet he chose not to do this with the earth 🤔 why was this exactly ?
Oh and PS why should anyone give a t#$$ what the bible says about anything ?
Until you demonstrate it to be anything more than the projected knowledge world views and morality of the uneducated superstitious immoral iron age Tribesmen that authored it ( just like every other man made "holy book " ) I'm not in the slightest bit interested what it says.
Is that clear.???
@@trumpbellend6717 That’s the beauty of it, you don’t have to be interested! Free will is a wonderful thing. I will say though, we can probably both agree that there is only one truth, it’s silly to think that everyone gets to go to their version of the afterlife, even if it’s just the nothingness that atheists claim. There’s so much more faith involved in atheism, and so much more evidence that the Bible is the true, living word of God. I can see that you have a little chip on your shoulder about religion. I hate religion, I’m a Christian, it’s not religion. I can’t convince you or anyone else that that my faith is real, nor is it really my responsibility. Believe what you will and I guess we will see what happens on the day the reaper comes for both of us. If I’m wrong, and there is nothingness, then I guess I lived a life full of love and gratitude for everything I’ve ever had in life. If you’re wrong, we’ll, you know the deal. I pray for souls like you, I do every night.
@@artax7664 lol OK first thing to note you completely failed to address my point about freewill and a lack of suffering not being mutually exclusive in heaven and why therefore God created evil on earth. 🤔 Secondly with regards to freewill so just how did that work out for pharaoh when he wanted to let the jews go but GOD HARDENED HIS HEART , because he wanted to have a bit more fun first. You know a few more plagues , babies to kill ect.
Or how about Peter and the whole " you will deny me 3 times before the cock crows" stuff . Did he not have a say in the matter, could he not change his mind ?
You see this is the problem you cant have free will if the future is predetermined or if god interferes with people's decisions as he does many times In the bible.
Think of all these hundreds of so called prophesies in the bible , you have surely heard of the BUTTERFLY EFFECT were one tiny tiny change in an action has huge earth shattering implications for the future. Well if we truly had freewill then those aforementioned prophecies are out the window.
You talk of "evidence" to support the biblical claims 😂🤣😅🤣🤣😅
Well if that was the case then you would not require "faith" as that's what the religious use because they DO NOT have evidence.
*TELL YOU WHAT HERE IS A CHALLENGE FOR YOU* in front of all your fellow gullible theists , they are even welcome to help you out let's dispense with all the evasion BS and *pretend that science has no big bang or evolution* Now let's see what you regard as evidence FOR THE CHRISTIAN GOD.
But remember this has to be sufficient to justify belief in a talking snake & donkey , giants , witches magic and zombies. It must also be sufficient to justify belief in a MUD FIGURINE becoming a living breathing man and a rib becoming a woman.
Along with the earth being covered in a crystalline dome ( firmament) that keeps the waters out 🤣😅 but has windows in it to let the rain in. This dome also contains both the sun and the moon which the bible says are the same size and stars that can fall to earth 😁😁 ( most stars are thousands of times bigger than the earth)
This evidence must be totaly conclusive and also be able to demonstrate why other explanations can be ruled out . For example any of the other thousands of proposed gods throughout history ( zeus thor buddha Mohammed ect. Along with a deistic god who created everything but wants and has no interactions with man .
Also a joint creation by multiple gods or the possibility that science will make a discovery in the future that shows a natural explanation or maybe will never be discovered but actually exists.
It must also be able to debunk multiverses and constant cycles of contraction & expansion, ect ect. That require absolutely nothing supernatural.
Furthermore your evidence should be of sufficient quality to convince that this god really is concerned with who we sleep with and in what position, what we
Can eat and wear and cares that we cut of part of our genitaila.
It should also convince us that the dead can come back to life and that the OWNING and beating of fellow human beings with a rod is moral.
I could go on and on but I predict right now that you wont even attempt any of this because you know it exposes your irrational hypocrisy evasion and attempts to discredit observable reality for the dishonest ramblings of a ####
My guess is you will just ignore all this and fall back on the old tried and tested " science can't explain X or I dont understand Y " god of the gap garbage.
Or maybe just latch onto one or two you regard as weakest in a feeble attempt to apear rational . *GO FOR IT SOFT LAD , IM WAITING WITH BAITED BREATH*
For me, a perfect world doesn't mean an utopia without any suffering.
Why not?
perfect according to the Jedi means balanced
So heaven isn’t a utopia because it doesn’t have any suffering?
The mental gymnastics you preform to reach your conclusions is baffling!! You contradict yourself and misrepresent the truth to believe a book over 2k years old written by men who didn't have the information we do now and they got a lot wrong but you'll make up any excuse to ignore reality just for a false Faith you've been brainwashed into believing in!!
@@dragosflorinvasile We no longer think it acceptable to *"Buy your slaves from the heathen nations that surround you"*
Nor that
*"if you beat your male or female slave with a rod and they do not die for a day or two"*
*"There shall be NO PUNISHMENT for they are your PROPERTY and your money"*
I would say that is a step in the right direction wouldn't you ? 😜
Modern societies think that the gathering of sticks on a sabath is not nor ever was immoral and worthy of stoning to death. The same applies also to our unruly rebellious children who disobey their parents ( sounds like most teenagers to me ) .
Thankfully a judge today recognizes a girl who has been raped and did not scream is actually a VICTIM and not deserving of death as the bible dictates.
@@dragosflorinvasile Of course these things happened in the past but there is a difference in how we regard the morality of such things now. We no longer think that the percieved whims of invisible subjective beings should be used to judge the morality or otherwise of those things.
Indeed we understand that a girl who has been raped is VICTIM not a criminal deserving of death regardless of how loudly they screamed.
So NO our moral system is NOT _" essentially the same as people had in the past"_
Our children today are often unruly rebellious and disobey their parents just as children in the past did. However we do NOT think this is deserving if stoning to death.
We have IMPROVED our morality by ignoring the filth endorsed by bible.
@@trumpbellend6717 Yeah man we have improved! Why just the other day I read an article about a university professor wanting to normalize pedophilia. Thanks secularism! 😊
There is no point in this argument because everything is only based on deductive rather than the effectiveness that we see. Religion only provides relief according to rationalization rather than clear clarity.
You know a video is crap when it quote mines...
Excellent video!
Let’s say you’re traveling in a car, you’re on the highway and all of a sudden you see a ginormous crash. Five cars toppled onto eachother, one of them is blazing with black smoke, ambulances, police and sirens of all kind. You say to yourself, “Man, this is terrible! There’s so much suffering!”
I heavily doubt that next you would say, “Man, nobody made this car or highway because I saw that suffering on the edge of the road.” That’s a gigantic leap of logic!
Except that’s what’s happening when we say “because evil exists, Nothing created everything”
We are driving this car called life and we see evil and suffering all around us on the highway, it’s a big leap of logic to say that nothing created everything because of this suffering we see.
Who says "because evil exists, nothing created everything"? Did you just pull that strawman out of your behind?
@@paulcooper1223 Forgive me, I insinuated everyone who does not believe in God says that. If you watch the video from 00:00 to 0:19 though, I believe that’s why this video was made. Some people believe that because of the presence of evil and suffering in this world, God can’t logically exist, so there can be no creator God of anything.
@@Elijah-pf9gi Not believing a god exists doesn't mean tbey believe nothing created everything.
This is a strawman. It's such a poor argument it was called out on Viced Rhino's rebuttal of this video...
@@paulcooper1223 I’m curious to learn more, what do people who believe that God doesn’t exist think created the universe? More specifically you yourself if you are willing to say.
@@Elijah-pf9gi What makes you think the universe was created? If we don't know what happened before the big bang, why insert answers that could be wrong?
William Lane Craig should have learned its not a good idea to talk about cosmology after being corrected so often by Sean Carroll.
The takeaway isn't that god per se does not exist, it's that an all-powerful, all-loving god doesn't.
You're basically begging the question of whether god is all-powerful and all-loving. How did you know? I wonder how you can justify that definition without saying "for the bible tells me so."
The free will solution may be used against the problem of evil but does not solve the problem of suffering. People have horrible disease that are not their doing at all. God allows suffering as the bible states. There is no logical constraint that forces him to make people suffer.
Isaiah 45:7 The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating disaster (other translations use evil); I am the LORD who does all these things
God isn't good all the time.
The existence of evil and suffering neither proves nor disproves an all-powerful, all-loving God. But, the atheist has a bigger problem. If God does not exist, then there is no basis for "good" or "evil" or "suffering," there is only "is." None of us can determine God's reasons for allowing all forms of evil, or suffering even though God may have good reasons for allowing it (read Job, or the Gospels). But we can know, based on His Word and many eyewitnesses, that God is real and that He offers hope and peace through faith in His Son, Jesus. There is yet to come a time when God's children (those who follow Jesus as Savior) will no longer suffer from the pains of this world. That's the point.
@@BrannonSG absolutely true.
Have you seen the second part of this video? It deals with some of those points. None of us are “good”, only God is good and everything else doesn’t quite measure up. Suffering is subjective, and the Bible says that He will give you peace with Him.
Romans 1:1-5 Therefore since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our lord Jesus Christ through whom we have gained access by faith into His grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God. Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character, and character hope. And hope does not put us to shame, because Gods love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.
@@artax7664 Utter nonsense, by what standard do you measure you "God " as good ?
@@BrannonSG Wrong, the existence of evil and suffering demonstrate that your God ( if he existed ) is not omnibenevolent. He is a slavery endorsing genocidal monster who cares not for the wellbeing of humanity.
"Free will" is nonsense that can't be legitimately explained in any consistent way. It's extremely fucked up to just say all suffering is deserved.
Notice that it's no part of the argument to say that "all suffering is deserved." Also, why think that free will is "nonsense" that can't be explained consistently? It seems like many philosophers today who are proponents of libertarian free will agree that it is necessary for free will that antecedent conditions must be insufficient to causally determine one's choice. - RF Admin
@@drcraigvideos You literally said suffering happens because God wants it to happen.
Free will implies free will. Free means unrestricted. Will has a lot of complex definitions but I think we could all agree an example of will or willpower would be resisting temptation. Will is essentially one's mental fortitude to control their own thoughts and behavior. Every human's will is restricted as no human can always control their thoughts, emotions, or behavior. Will being restricted means will isn't free, meaning free will doesn't exist. Simple as.
@@youcantbeatk7006 So if humans cannot control their own behavior, why do you even care about suffering? Normally I don't comment on these videos, but man this is so bad. In your view, suffering is just determined anyways so who cares? Why care about something if you have zero control over it?
@@youcantbeatk7006 Also you're redefining free will to disprove free will. This is a strawman. No one defines free will like this.
@@ethanbunn1948 Everyone doesn't suffer the same amount. If you're thirsty but you don't get out of bed you're suffer but if you get up and get a glass of water you'll suffer less. Did you think about this at all? Also I'm describing free will in the most literal and basic definition. You're the one trying to redefine free will and that's not even what a strawman is.
GOD created a world without suffering but adam and eve chose to believe satan over GOD and tell this very day people still choose satan the defeated liar over all loving GOD
Why did your god create any of this knowing full well what would happen?
By the way, there was no adam and eve, nor talking snakes or magic fruit, so your comment holds no weight at all.
@@2l84me8 Your existence serves a very specific and unique purpose.
God could say that He is patient, merciful, and just. But how would He go about proving that He has any of those virtues?
Here's when people like you come into the picture!
People like you exist so that we, the "remnant," may not only understand these virtues, but acknowledge that God has them.
Not because you are any of those things, no... In fact, you are clearly quite the opposite as your comments reveal (Mala fides).
If God were truly the tyrant you project, then people like you would not have been allowed to exist.
More so, my existence as well as many others would have been better without people like you... but at the end of the day, you are necessary for us to increase in knowledge and understanding. Thank you btw!
So far, I have learned that God is patient and merciful, but I can't wait for the lesson in justice! LOL
@@kevinmiller6443 No, you are asserting your god exists with literally no evidence nor demonstrated and begging the question as well.
I exist because my parents had sex, not because your all powerful, imaginary god friend couldn’t be bothered to do something on his own.
Oh, come on! Do you really believe that suffering is ACT OF FREE WILL? Do you really believe that all suffering comes from human choice and people cannot be free without having option to make that choice? That is nonsense!
praise the only true living LORD and GOD bless you all glory be to the HOLY TRINITY forever and ever amen 💖✝️✝️✝️
Thanks for the incredible insight you provided on the topic of this video and all the specific points you adressed.
@@WeirdWonderful lmfaooo