Suffering and Evil: The Probability Version
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Thank you for making such quality videos about things that really matter
I really appreciate the point about background knowledge. I think that's something I've overlooked in my thinking about this.
Amen. This Intellectually deep & yet loving.
The problem of evil can't be reduced to a comparative analysis of the intellectual problem versus the emotional problem -- where because it's emotional it is seen as not philosophically relevant. That is a westernized view of the relevancy of emotional experience in our decision making and the extent to which reason is a superior renderer of decision making and truth attainment. The problem of evil is purely emotional, and the fact that it is an emotional problem is what makes it a relevant discussion at all because our experience of God is primarily meant to be an emotional experience and an emotional connection. It isn't meant to be a rationalized experience per se. Most people's religious experiences are profoundly and almost primarily emotional and ineffable -- where it cannot be put to reason or put to words, nor do people have to justify why their experience of God has to ultimately be rational or rationalized. The intellectual experience of God is secondary to the emotinal experience, and it serves our emotional experience rather than our emotional experience of God serving our intellectual experience. Most people only enertain the intellectal aspect of their belief in God when they encounter intellectual arguments against their belief systems. But they don't come to their belief by reason alone-- it is that they have a personal and moral experience of God. The reason why morality is an important part of our experience as human being is because most of us have empathy, and understand that suffering isn't an intellectual experience, but a profoundly emotional and personal experience that is unique to each individual, and how certain things make people feel informs our moral choices and the impetus to have a moral opinion and moral reasoning on most things. That is why we even have a debate about whether Artificial Intelligences should be considered to have rights or not -- because there is a conception that they may have a personal experience and would have a personal experience of suffering. If there is no conception that they have a personal experience of suffering, then we wouldn't consider the moral relevancy of their existence. That is why we don't have qualms about killing some animals for food, or killing bothersome insects a lot of times, because our general consensus is that they don't have enough of a personal experience to make what we do to them morally relevant -- although that is a hot topic of debate. The exestence of morality neccessitates an moral response to certain action and certain things when you have the power to do something about it. Our experience suggests that there are certain immoral actions that people can take that are so morally void, that God would have a moral duty to intervene as a matter of principle not a matter of a utilitarian point of view about his grander vision of life and creation. God can't be morally principled by nature and not have a moral intervention no matter how small the infraction and still be morally perfect. It is an error in conception, but more importantly it is an error in love and emotional connection. It doesn't feel right and it feels wrong, and feels offensive to our intrinsic moral worth before God, and that feeling matters more than whether it can be rationalized intellectually. Just because something is rational to do doesn't make it right to do, and that is because of how it can make someone feel, and the relevancy of their personal dignity and worth. That is why slavery is wrong. It is rational to have slaves -- western chattel slavery is directly responsible for the success of Capitalism in the world. We can't analyze the success of capitalism and the progression of the industrial age, without asking if it would have been successful if not for chattel slavery. But slavery is wrong because it insults the dignity of human life and we don't have to ratonally justify why it is wrong -- it is wrong because we know it is wrong deep down on the inside. We don't have to explain it or justify that feeling or provide reasons why we shouldn't have slaves. And that is why the emotional problem of evil does have to have an adequate answer beyond it being part of God's overall plan...Morality is a matter of principle as much as and often more than it is matter of consequences and goals. There are certain things that can be done that have no morally sufficient reason for their existence nor matter the positive results they may bring. They are always wrong no matter who is doing it -- even if God is doing it. And they are wrong no matter the ends. The ends don't justify the means. So, the moral sufficiency argument is inadequate unless we are willing to concede that the ends sometimes justify the means if those are the only means possible.
The only sufficient answer to the problem of evil is that why God may be All-Poweful, God is NOT infinitely powerful. Therefore, a universe without forms of suffering that God cannot prevent is an inconcievability. While God has the power to minimize suffering God doesn't have the power to unilaterally prevent all suffering infinitely because the universe is too complex to make it a mathematical possibility and there still be complex, highly intelligent life forms. God may have all powers that are possible, but God does not have the ability to do the impossible. And evil exist because God does not have the power to prevent it all because God doesn't have infinite power. God can't create something so heavy that he can't lift it. He can't do the inconcievable. Also, it is likely that beings with free-will are part of the concept of God itself. If God has morally perfect love, that means that there would have to be the potentional for beings that exist that have the power to chose not to love God back, or that are indifferent to God and don't care about his existence or both. And there would have to be the potential for beings to existence that are as difficult as possible to love, but that God still loves unconditionally. If moral perfection is part of the nature of God, then it requires that the nature of God is to love all things unconditionally, and that requires that beings with free-will exist that can make choices about whether or not they want to have a relationship with God. God can't make choices that are incompatible with it's nature. So if part of it's nature is to be unconditional love, then the only way that nature can exist is for their to be life. Life is the inevitable manifestation of the perfection of God's love. Life can't not exist because its an inevitable manifestation of God's very existence. Evil exist because God is unconditionally loving by nature. Evil isn't a part of God's nature, but it exists as a potential consequence of God's nature.
As paradoxical as it may seem -- evil exist because God's love is morally perfect not because God's love for us is imperfect. If there was no potential for evil, we could not experience the pefection of God's love because we would have no frame of reference for what it means to be loved. It is only in the context of death that life can have any meaning, and it is only in the context of the potential to suffer that we can know the true meaning of love. I also think that God cannot itself experience being unconditionally love in a perfected environment. Or least there would have to be a period of time where beings lived in an imperfect environment to have the capacity to have unconditional love for God. Anyone who loves God in this world has unconditional love for God whether they realize it or not. Life exist as an inevitable manifestation of the pefection of God's unconditional love. And it makes perfect sense as love can only truly exist when their is a relationship between beings. That means that our love for God has to be incredibly, incredibly meaningful to God beyond what we could even comprehend. God can't not be perfect, so the only way for it to experience unconditional love is to be loved by beings that can't have a direct experience of it's perfection in an imperfect environment. If we could have a direct experience of God in all it's glory our love of God wouldn't be a choice.
To me this is the best possible answer to the problem of evil emotionally. We can accept evil if we understand that it is an inevitability that can only be minimized not eradicated entirely. That life is an inevitable conseques of God's moral perfection because the moral perfection of God's love requires the existence of things that are either indifferent to God's love or against God's love as well as things that have unconditional love for God despite having an imperfect experience of God. The potential for evil is the crucible within which God can experience having a loving relationship with someone based in freedom. And perhaps even if God loves us all unconditionally by its very nature, there are ways that God can choose to love us all in ways that are unique to each person. So while God loving us is inevitable, HOW God loves each of us is a matter of choice for God and is affected by the evolutionary choices the being makes, which brings novelty to it's and God's existence -- where the relationship can evolve over time and the love between God and the being can become deeper and deeper over time in it's own unique pathway. So in some sense, while God loves us all equally -- the love BETWEEN God and one person could theoretically be MUCH MUCH deeper than it is between God and another person based on the exent to which that being chooses to nurture it's relationship with God and how that being nutures that relationship.
“He was despised and rejected- a man of sorrows, acquainted with deepest grief. We turned our backs on him and looked the other way. He was despised, and we did not care. Yet it was our weaknesses he carried; it was our sorrows that weighed him down. And we thought his troubles were a punishment from God, a punishment for his own sins! But he was pierced for our rebellion, crushed for our sins. He was beaten so we could be whole. He was whipped so we could be healed. All of us, like sheep, have strayed away. We have left God’s paths to follow our own. Yet the Lord laid on him the sins of us all. He was oppressed and treated harshly, yet he never said a word. He was led like a lamb to the slaughter. And as a sheep is silent before the shearers, he did not open his mouth. Unjustly condemned, he was led away. No one cared that he died without descendants, that his life was cut short in midstream. But he was struck down for the rebellion of my people. He had done no wrong and had never deceived anyone. But he was buried like a criminal; he was put in a rich man’s grave. But it was the Lord’s good plan to crush him and cause him grief. Yet when his life is made an offering for sin, he will have many descendants. He will enjoy a long life, and the Lord’s good plan will prosper in his hands. When he sees all that is accomplished by his anguish, he will be satisfied. And because of his experience, my righteous servant will make it possible for many to be counted righteous, for he will bear all their sins. I will give him the honors of a victorious soldier, because he exposed himself to death. He was counted among the rebels. He bore the sins of many and interceded for rebels.”
Isaiah 53:3-12 NLT
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16
God loves you so much and showed that by sending His Son to die for us so that we may inherit eternal life. We deserve hell but He gave us heaven through faith in Jesus. He took the punishment we deserved and by putting our faith in Him we can be saved. The Key To Eternal Life:
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This is definitely one of the best channels on this topic
"to achieve his purpose god has to allow sufferings long the way"
Why?!
Suffering on the world is partly a consequence of humanity's wrong choices.
@@stephencastro4723 Then your god is either weak, evil or both.
Would you accept the reasoning of a parent who tortures their children to "make them better people"?
Amen!
Thank you Dr. C.
The purpose of life is to know God. Wow! Whoever says that? Great video!
JI Packer, the Westminster shorter catechism, the Bible, etc
Name one great movie that features character development that doesn't require the character to suffer along the way
None
Except youre missing a tiny point. Movies aren't real. If the characters in the movies were to be brought into real life, would you still want to watch them suffer? Unless God find's our existence and suffering a form of entertainment
@@tex824God didn't create sinful actions, sinners did. God gave you the freedom to choose your actions because He loves you. Only for you to reject His unconditional love, embrace amorality, and then turn around and blame God for your own decisions. Sin is what caused humanity's separation from God and how it ended up in this fallen world 🌎. But God never stopped loving us no matter what (Genesis 22:8, John 3:16, Romans 6:23)
@@tex824 One day if you have children and you clearly see them do acts of wrong, see if you will re-frame from causing them suffering in order to teach them anything. Refusing a child even a cookie can create many many tears and emotional pain. 🤣
@@tex824Many movies are based on true stories and still have character development not possible without the suffering. This is Reality, and even a fantasy film is a bad film that no one will want to watch if it doesn't have conflict. Argue with that.
Music?
Also, a lot of people who make this argument use an appeal to emotion fallacy.
The “problem of pain” is the most plausible argument atheists can make. The counter arguments are not sufficient to answer this. Those in this video have been made many times: they may provide some superficial reasoning but - set against the widespread suffering of innocents - they are inadequate. We Christians must be careful and admit that sometimes we do not know.
Good video, man
Great video but if there's a reason for everything then why should an innocent family be killed by an axe murdering maniac or why should a girl like Sylvia Likens be brutally tortured for the final years of her life resulting in her long painful death. How can an all loving God allow these hainess acts to occur, even if we have free will would he just stand around up in heaven and see this unnecessary brutality to occur to innocent men, women, and children?
The free will of evil people causes horrible pain and suffering. We need to stop these actions when possible and comfort the hurting. If we ourselves had never experienced pain/suffering, we would not have the ability to have and show compassion. God wants us to be part of the work, to be there loving people along with Him.
If you have children, you know how sometimes you have to let them struggle through a difficult task, because it's the only way they will learn to do it themselves. It's so much better for them in the long run, than rushing in and "fixing" their pain. God does not create character in us. He gives us the opportunity to build it. Building character is very hard work! No one else can train for the marathon that we have to run, if we want to finish.
Why should an innocent family be killed by an axe murdering maniac? Well they shouldn’t. Just because God allows suffering doesn’t mean we should be making others suffer. God gives us free will, but not without consequences.
praise the only true living LORD and GOD bless you all glory be to the HOLY TRINITY forever and ever amen 💖✝️✝️✝️
The problem of evil stands. This does not address why entropy exists. It must be shown that:
A) A "greater good" must exists that makes entropy necessary
B) The given "greater good" requires God existence
C) God approves of this "greater good," which is unknowable.
Not appealing to emotion here, but the natural state of any system, including life, is to be in disorder- to not exist. Thus, all systems, sooner or later, fall into disorder. This is why earthquakes happen, ages kills us, and the universe will eventually die a heat death where nothing will ever live again. This is a naturalistic evil that cannot be justified with love.
Additionally, evil itself doesn't require the physical world to be defined. Evil, simply, is anything that brings about suffering. Suffering is anything that takes away someone's happiness. Hapiness is metaphysical, and does not require a body to experience, especially if the soul can experience happiness. The same with suffering.
My question, then, is the following: if suffering is necessary for happiness, is there suffering in heaven in order to have eternal happiness? If so, will heaven be different than the physical world we exist in now? If not, how do we know this world here isn't heaven? Again, happiness and suffering are both metaphysical, and do not require the existence of a physical world to exist.
P.S. the video's arguement is Pascal's Mugging, which is a slight alteration on Pascal's Wager. If you're curious, look into it.
This is a very bad objection, and Dr. Craig has ripped it to shreds multiple times. Not to be disrespectful but, are you even familiar with the academia regarding this issue?
On the topic of suffering, we cannot forget the original fall of man. We must recognize that first, Jesus was with the Father from the beginning as the Psalmist proclaims. When the Earth was void of form. Man once lived in harmony with God, but in separate domains because we were MADE by God and were never equal to His Glory. Therefore, whether or not you believe in the story of the garden of Eden or not, we can at least agree that due to our origin and our pedigree that God was ruler over us as His creation. It was His choice to make us with nerves and feelings yes, He created us with a conscience and a mind to feel. He didn't want automatons. He made us in His likeness as was His divine right to do. He, in his wisdom knew that we would stray and fall away and His Universe has always been governed by principles that coincide with his nature. Therefore, the wages of sin is simply death, and all the pain that comes with the fall of man cannot be directly the fault of God, but the result of our own choices on Earth in response to God's sovereignty. The free will factor cannot be understated and is so important. God created us for His Glory in the begining. Yet, we fell of our own sin, and His plan to reconcile man into Him has cost God his Son, so that we know without a doubt the extent to which He would go out of love for us. It is up to faith to believe that God in His wisdom carried out (In His mercy mind you) the way of salvation for us all, to the best extent, knowing well that so many would choose NOT to love Him, and sorrow entered the world due largely by our own misdoings. He allows free will, because you cannot force love, and God is love and His will for His creation was always a harmonious co -existence and that we would be the pinnacle of His creation, and that He would be exalted and glorified. He is still glorified through suffering, and we are refined and strengthened by what we go through, and he proves us and tries our faith in the midst of suffering. Will we trust Him in lack, in want or in need, through loss, through pain that He himself is familiar with. Faith requires action, requires proof to demonstrate ourselves worthy of Himself, because He is Holy and set apart. He refines us and molds us through what we go through, if we see suffering as just an attack on ourselves, then we are narrow minded and cannot see how it relates to the bigger plan of Salvation that He set. We cannot undermine his plan with speculation, we just trust that His way is the best way and that His love is regardless what is guiding the whole of humanity. I have constantly been stunned by my lack of maturity when I see people who have it far worse but their spirits are still so strong and they don't complain and still give God the Glory. God's mercies reach out to all through charities and to those in need everywhere. You just have to consider it. Suffering is a complex component of our existence, and if everyone had it easy, if everything was hunky dory all the time and we all had what we wanted, then we would have no need to cry out to God, we would in our arrogance and pride have lost our awareness of God for the abundance of our own pleasures and good estates. God's way of humbling us and drawing us to Him often requires us to make mistakes, to get our hands dirty, because otherwise we would not need to rely on Him or give Him glory. It almost sounds twisted but truly it's just life. We all require instruction and we have to be allowed to make mistakes to understand our place and recognize His authority and receive His mercies and blessings by obedience to His laws. We recognize the nature of good and evil by suffering, just as we recognize pain by our nerves. Everything has a purpose, even suffering. We understand that the nature of God's law is good and that to kill for instance causes pain for all involved. You cannot know good without evil. So all in all, it is a very complex situation to be the Creator and a complex world we live in that forces us to recognize His authority and dominion and His love in complex ways.
Having dealt with rape victims (both on a personal level and as a counselor for others) videos like this: that victim blame and tell the victim that they simply don't understand why God wanted them to be raped, just make me weep. There is a difference between wanting a nice car and a nice house and wanting not to have been raped. Please try harder to see this difference. And acknowledge that there are those among us for whom "a better life" doesn't mean roses and butterflies but simply making it to the end of the day without being hit or deprived of food or die from a genetic malady.
@@cosmologium by no means did I suggest that I speak for anyone other than myself. You are free to feel however you want to feel. I, as stated, feel differently.
@@cosmologium there must be a contradiction between gods love and your abuse.
The bibles definition of loving includes always protects. Always cares.
He chose not to protect you which implies he doesn't always protect. If he cared about you enough to desire you to not be abused then he'd take action to prevent it
If he's not capable of taking action to prevent it then he's not all powerful. The fact that he made a creation in which sexual abuse is possible then he's not omnibenevolent
@@drsatan9617 If God does not exist, doesn't the problem of evil become a moot point? How do you define what is evil and what is good in the absence of God?
@@samehasaad4315 ethics
@@drsatan9617 where do ethics come from? Who gets to decide good ethics from bad?
great bs
Do you have a more coherent world view?
Paulogia has made a nice video refuting this but I prefer to take a more realistic and less accepting of claims made without evidence approach
If god had two possible options when making the universe
A: make evil and suffering impossible
B: allow evil and suffering to be possible his decision to chose to allow evil proves he's not omnibenevolent, because a being which is "all good" wouldn't chose to allow evil
If he had no choice but to allow evil despite his desire to prevent evil then he's not all powerful
The idea that god has good reasons for allowing evil (perhaps to prevent prevent greater evil) also bears the implication that's he's not all powerful because he couldnt prevent the greater or lesser evil