I listened to the SU&SD thoughts twice now and whilst I fully endorse and support Rahdo's positive take on the theme and more importantly the subtext of the game, I do believe it is all perhaps a little too subtle in its engagement with the history of colonialism. The game has a positive feeling of taking colonised people into your hand and treating them how you would others (as equals) but then I would also like the game to reflect somehow the negatives that you brought to their world: Perhaps colonising too much generates negative points or reduces your trade output. Or on the flipside there is a humanitarian tracking system. The most humanitarian society gets famous people turning up (or other benefits) during festivals and the player who has colonised the most loses humanitarian points on this tracking sheet. In all, I would like the game to do a bit more.
well, the game is basically emulates the humanism rewards you suggest because the primary source of vp is meeting the needs of society, both yours and others (your opponents in the old world, and a fully independent new world). it's important to note that you clearly never colonize the new world, you instead open new trade opportunities that benefit everyone (it's sort of a united federation of planets approach, but set in the 1800s instead of the 2800's). you don't get to exploit or steal from them. instead, every interaction with the new world is driven by trade, both getting resources to fuel your economy, and also the means by which you fulfill their needs... every time you interact with the new world, you do it through trade, and it's also demonstrated that trade generates prosperity for both sides in the process. so that's the underlying message. i do agree though that they probably shouldn't have worn their hearts on their sleeve a bit more and had a full section in the rules about this. "here's how colonization worked, and it's terrible. and here's the world we could have, and can still have, if we put humanity over profit". the game is 100% about progressive ideals like wealth distribution, immigration, social mobility, trade over exploitation, strength through diversity) and it clearly demonstrates these ideals through the language of game design, but it would have helped if they put it more directly in written language (in the rulebook) to reinforce those ideals :)
Finally got the game last week. Played it 4 times since then and can’t stop thinking about strategies for my next game. A hit for me. Thanks Rahdo for introducing me to this game with your videos. 😁
You gotta learn to appreciate Rahdo. I wasnt a fan at first as I tend to look at negative feedback a bit as opposed to positive because you never know whats advertising when you dont know the author but once you get that reviewers like rahdo wont review games they dislike, it changes things a lot.
Interesting comment about the original 7 Wonders. Sure, it's a lot more tame than Duel, but it also has hate drafting and negative interactions (military). I think maybe Concordia aimed to be that friendly mutual benefit game, even in name.
i dont consider the military negative becuase it's just points... you getting -3vp is the same thing as me getting +3vp. they could have easily left the -vp tokens out and simply increased the value of the +vp chips, and nothing would change. for us, hate drafting isn't anywhere near as aggressive because you choose to hand me the cards i have... you could have taken card X for yourself, but you opted for something else, so i'm eliminating something you already passed on, which to my mind isn't anywhere near as bad as actually stealing money from you or destroying stuff you've built.
I only did a one, 3 player, game of it and i loved it. Only "flaw" i would have preferred a different ending condition. We got so caught up on building building and building, because is so fun, that we had soo many citizen to satisfy that the game last a bit too long.
I managed to buy this off Martin in person and he happily signed it for me which was a special bonus! Interesting that he made such a friendly game considering how tough some of his other games can be. I really don’t wait to get my hands on the official English rules though
yes, it's really interesting that he's gone through such a big shift in terms of representing an idealized economy. i wonder if it's reflective of a change of world view he's gone through, or maybe he's just trying to accurately (with cardboard tools) the thematic intent of the original video game?
Yeah I've been waiting for this one in English myself, I've tried it out already on Tabletop simulator and I'll definitely be picking it up in the summer, I've got plenty games where everyone goes to war or plunders resources, so its gonna be great to experience a peaceful resource racing game.
The video game has some human elements, but it’s mostly focused on developing and optimizing your supply chain. It’s a very fun game, and this board game version is my most anticipated of 2020!
As always, thanks Richard. This looks fantastic. I picked up Civ New Dawn board game, while it wasn't too bad, the card play was interesting. But the tech tree upgrading was the best part. Even though the attacking/area control elements were not the best. ANNO looks a refined supply chain/tech tree mechanism. Definitely going on the list of games I'm interested in.
Very much appreciated the positive outlook you took on the theme. Many board game content creators hold the theme against the game because of a negative view on history. As always Rahdo, your positivity allows for informative , yet fair, final thoughts. This is why I always want to hear your opinion/see your playthrough.
thanks. one thing i should have mentioned in the final thoughts is that while to me it's incredibly obvious that this game is an ode to progressive ideals like wealth redistribution, social mobility, immigration, trade over exploitation, etc., it might not be obvious to everyone else. and with stuff like this, maybe there's such a thing as being too subtle :)
I guess the above “negative view of history” is a dig at shut up and sit down who are vocal on this issue. I’d recommend checking out their thoughts on the recent anno 1800 podcast as it goes into how the videogame handled this really well, but the boardgame struggles. This is less about being subtle and more about how storytelling in cardboard and tokens is very hard. An interesting discussion.
@@toddhunter123 yup, i just finished checking it out this evening. i have to admit i'm surprised they give credit to the videogame developers for having awareness of the issues of colonialization, but don't extend that same credit to the boardgame developers when it's super obvious (to me anyway) that martin wallace and co wove the same themetic concerns into their game, just painting with a different creative brush (cardboard vs pixels)
@@rahdo it certainly was good to hear another perspective on it, as it was a concern. Thanks for covering this type of stuff as well, I value your opinion.
@4:33 Regarding colonization, your ships that provide conquest tokens to add new boards representing the new world require cannons. So it is not as peaceful as you are portraying.
i'll agree that the canon icon was less than ideal, but it's pretty clear from the in-game context (and also from what the developers have stated to me directly in email conversations) that this was not the intent, and that the use of that icon was to be consistent with the videogame iconography. so it's pretty easy to parse the canon icon as reference to defense against piracy rather than conquest, but you can choose to interpret less charitably if you like :)
Hey Richard, a little late to this game play through and final thoughts. Great videos too by the way. If you do get to see this message I would be really interested in your views on best player count. Martin’s games have often been less than spectacular at 2P. I get the feeling Anno 1800 may also be a little underwhelming with 2P. What are your thoughts on this?
The video game version of the Anno series has evolved a lot. Early ones in the series had you literally steal important artifacts from Aztec s and native Americans. The more recent ones co-operate more with them but I haven't played the latest one Anno 1800.
The more I watch the gameplay the more it reminds me of It’s a Wonderful World solo from the mechanics perspective. Am I right? Does it share some vibe?
hmm, not quite. they're both drawing & playing cards from a regular card form a deck to replicate an opponetn playing a card, but the two games themselves are so different :)
4:16 how about the action that lets you discard cards, essentially your population, would that be considered deportation or they just died before you could satisfy their needs
well, it's not discarding, it's swapping. the action is you can put up to 3 cards at the bottom of their respective decks, but that means you have to draw the same number of cards. so i think of it as a social mobility thing, with your same population getting government assistance to train for other professions/careers :)
nope. i suspect the solo campaign could be turned into a co-op campaign if you increased the objective targets for each mission in the storyline, but right now they're focusing on the solo playtesting.
I think you just answered your own question there. It's a 2021 game, if the overwhelming majority of the market can't get it until the third or fourth quarter of the year.
actually everyone in the world has been able to get it since oct/nov last year, you just have to pay a bit more for international shipping in some places: www.milan-spiele.de/anno-1800-p-27617.html :)
This game looks to me to be a map-less version of Brass. Would you agree with that? Brass also has integration of the industries with the players in a similar way.
I have played numerous rounds of 7 wonders duel and it never felt like nasty attacking. Did you maybe have one round that just left a bad taste in your mouth?
Some Wonders are definitely nastier than others and have you destroy your opponent's built card. If you already don't have a lot of resources and your opponent destroys one of your few resources, that can mess up your game a lot. Wether that represents an issue for you or not is dependent on your tastes. I have had games of 7 Wonders Duel that have been a lot of fun and some others that were really painful for one of the players.
I listened to the SU&SD thoughts twice now and whilst I fully endorse and support Rahdo's positive take on the theme and more importantly the subtext of the game, I do believe it is all perhaps a little too subtle in its engagement with the history of colonialism. The game has a positive feeling of taking colonised people into your hand and treating them how you would others (as equals) but then I would also like the game to reflect somehow the negatives that you brought to their world:
Perhaps colonising too much generates negative points or reduces your trade output.
Or on the flipside there is a humanitarian tracking system. The most humanitarian society gets famous people turning up (or other benefits) during festivals and the player who has colonised the most loses humanitarian points on this tracking sheet.
In all, I would like the game to do a bit more.
well, the game is basically emulates the humanism rewards you suggest because the primary source of vp is meeting the needs of society, both yours and others (your opponents in the old world, and a fully independent new world). it's important to note that you clearly never colonize the new world, you instead open new trade opportunities that benefit everyone (it's sort of a united federation of planets approach, but set in the 1800s instead of the 2800's). you don't get to exploit or steal from them. instead, every interaction with the new world is driven by trade, both getting resources to fuel your economy, and also the means by which you fulfill their needs... every time you interact with the new world, you do it through trade, and it's also demonstrated that trade generates prosperity for both sides in the process. so that's the underlying message.
i do agree though that they probably shouldn't have worn their hearts on their sleeve a bit more and had a full section in the rules about this. "here's how colonization worked, and it's terrible. and here's the world we could have, and can still have, if we put humanity over profit". the game is 100% about progressive ideals like wealth distribution, immigration, social mobility, trade over exploitation, strength through diversity) and it clearly demonstrates these ideals through the language of game design, but it would have helped if they put it more directly in written language (in the rulebook) to reinforce those ideals :)
Finally got the game last week. Played it 4 times since then and can’t stop thinking about strategies for my next game. A hit for me. Thanks Rahdo for introducing me to this game with your videos. 😁
I gotta say this is fantastic, how almost every final thoughts start out :)
that's 'cause i try to only spend my time playing fantastic games! :)
Watched a lot of his videos, and he has not led me wrong so far!
You gotta learn to appreciate Rahdo. I wasnt a fan at first as I tend to look at negative feedback a bit as opposed to positive because you never know whats advertising when you dont know the author but once you get that reviewers like rahdo wont review games they dislike, it changes things a lot.
Fantastic answer Rahdo! Oh don’t get me wrong. I am a big fan and have been watching his content for many many years.
Interesting comment about the original 7 Wonders. Sure, it's a lot more tame than Duel, but it also has hate drafting and negative interactions (military). I think maybe Concordia aimed to be that friendly mutual benefit game, even in name.
i dont consider the military negative becuase it's just points... you getting -3vp is the same thing as me getting +3vp. they could have easily left the -vp tokens out and simply increased the value of the +vp chips, and nothing would change.
for us, hate drafting isn't anywhere near as aggressive because you choose to hand me the cards i have... you could have taken card X for yourself, but you opted for something else, so i'm eliminating something you already passed on, which to my mind isn't anywhere near as bad as actually stealing money from you or destroying stuff you've built.
I only did a one, 3 player, game of it and i loved it. Only "flaw" i would have preferred a different ending condition. We got so caught up on building building and building, because is so fun, that we had soo many citizen to satisfy that the game last a bit too long.
I managed to buy this off Martin in person and he happily signed it for me which was a special bonus! Interesting that he made such a friendly game considering how tough some of his other games can be. I really don’t wait to get my hands on the official English rules though
yes, it's really interesting that he's gone through such a big shift in terms of representing an idealized economy. i wonder if it's reflective of a change of world view he's gone through, or maybe he's just trying to accurately (with cardboard tools) the thematic intent of the original video game?
I’m really excited for the revised Rahdo’s 2020 Top 10! I have a feeling that it’s gonna be radically changed from the original.
Yeah I've been waiting for this one in English myself, I've tried it out already on Tabletop simulator and I'll definitely be picking it up in the summer, I've got plenty games where everyone goes to war or plunders resources, so its gonna be great to experience a peaceful resource racing game.
The video game has some human elements, but it’s mostly focused on developing and optimizing your supply chain. It’s a very fun game, and this board game version is my most anticipated of 2020!
As always, thanks Richard. This looks fantastic. I picked up Civ New Dawn board game, while it wasn't too bad, the card play was interesting. But the tech tree upgrading was the best part. Even though the attacking/area control elements were not the best. ANNO looks a refined supply chain/tech tree mechanism. Definitely going on the list of games I'm interested in.
I’ve enjoyed most of the Anno video games. This looks like it does a pretty good job of reflecting the challenges in those games.
This game looks great. Thanks Rahdo!
Played this on TTS and will be buying. Excellent game👍
You sold me on that game. I'm looking forward to getting and playing it.
Very much appreciated the positive outlook you took on the theme. Many board game content creators hold the theme against the game because of a negative view on history. As always Rahdo, your positivity allows for informative , yet fair, final thoughts. This is why I always want to hear your opinion/see your playthrough.
thanks. one thing i should have mentioned in the final thoughts is that while to me it's incredibly obvious that this game is an ode to progressive ideals like wealth redistribution, social mobility, immigration, trade over exploitation, etc., it might not be obvious to everyone else. and with stuff like this, maybe there's such a thing as being too subtle :)
I guess the above “negative view of history” is a dig at shut up and sit down who are vocal on this issue.
I’d recommend checking out their thoughts on the recent anno 1800 podcast as it goes into how the videogame handled this really well, but the boardgame struggles.
This is less about being subtle and more about how storytelling in cardboard and tokens is very hard. An interesting discussion.
@@toddhunter123 yup, i just finished checking it out this evening. i have to admit i'm surprised they give credit to the videogame developers for having awareness of the issues of colonialization, but don't extend that same credit to the boardgame developers when it's super obvious (to me anyway) that martin wallace and co wove the same themetic concerns into their game, just painting with a different creative brush (cardboard vs pixels)
@@rahdo it certainly was good to hear another perspective on it, as it was a concern. Thanks for covering this type of stuff as well, I value your opinion.
I played the SG back in March and I think that I’ll wait for the RPX expansion before I go out and buy another RRP
@4:33 Regarding colonization, your ships that provide conquest tokens to add new boards representing the new world require cannons. So it is not as peaceful as you are portraying.
i'll agree that the canon icon was less than ideal, but it's pretty clear from the in-game context (and also from what the developers have stated to me directly in email conversations) that this was not the intent, and that the use of that icon was to be consistent with the videogame iconography. so it's pretty easy to parse the canon icon as reference to defense against piracy rather than conquest, but you can choose to interpret less charitably if you like :)
@@rahdo nice answer
Hey Richard, a little late to this game play through and final thoughts. Great videos too by the way. If you do get to see this message I would be really interested in your views on best player count. Martin’s games have often been less than spectacular at 2P. I get the feeling Anno 1800 may also be a little underwhelming with 2P. What are your thoughts on this?
we loved it at 2. i'm sure it would be better with more but we were very engaged with each other at 2 :)
@@rahdo thank you for the quick reply good sir, much appreciated
The video game version of the Anno series has evolved a lot. Early ones in the series had you literally steal important artifacts from Aztec s and native Americans. The more recent ones co-operate more with them but I haven't played the latest one Anno 1800.
The more I watch the gameplay the more it reminds me of It’s a Wonderful World solo from the mechanics perspective. Am I right? Does it share some vibe?
hmm, not quite. they're both drawing & playing cards from a regular card form a deck to replicate an opponetn playing a card, but the two games themselves are so different :)
4:16 how about the action that lets you discard cards, essentially your population, would that be considered deportation or they just died before you could satisfy their needs
well, it's not discarding, it's swapping. the action is you can put up to 3 cards at the bottom of their respective decks, but that means you have to draw the same number of cards. so i think of it as a social mobility thing, with your same population getting government assistance to train for other professions/careers :)
Regardin your favourite wallace....did you forget about Brass?
actually, when i said steam, i meant brass (i've never played steam) :)
@@rahdo that sound more likely you :)
I was wondering: is there a campaign for multiple players as well?
nope. i suspect the solo campaign could be turned into a co-op campaign if you increased the objective targets for each mission in the storyline, but right now they're focusing on the solo playtesting.
@@rahdo Thanks for the response, that's a shame, would have loved to see a campaign added to this!
I think you just answered your own question there. It's a 2021 game, if the overwhelming majority of the market can't get it until the third or fourth quarter of the year.
actually everyone in the world has been able to get it since oct/nov last year, you just have to pay a bit more for international shipping in some places: www.milan-spiele.de/anno-1800-p-27617.html :)
@@rahdo in English? Pre-reply... You even said it's only German. I thought I misheard you. So... Solidified... 2021 game.
@@dankelly i was playing the german version in this video. the game's language independent :)
@@rahdo Wait, the world doesnt revolve around America? lol
@@dankelly I agree Dan, 2021 game :)
This game looks to me to be a map-less version of Brass. Would you agree with that? Brass also has integration of the industries with the players in a similar way.
well there is interdependency between players who specialize in different things, they do have that in common, and that's a substantial thing :)
I take it the game plays well with two? Most plays are with my spouse.
yes plays great at 2 :)
I have played numerous rounds of 7 wonders duel and it never felt like nasty attacking. Did you maybe have one round that just left a bad taste in your mouth?
i kind of go into this at faq.rahdo.com #6 :)
Some Wonders are definitely nastier than others and have you destroy your opponent's built card. If you already don't have a lot of resources and your opponent destroys one of your few resources, that can mess up your game a lot. Wether that represents an issue for you or not is dependent on your tastes. I have had games of 7 Wonders Duel that have been a lot of fun and some others that were really painful for one of the players.
Thank you for sharing your view. Black lives matter shirt, you got me as a follower! Live in peace and play games!