they did brick and mordor dirty in bl3, Mordecai should've been Lilith's successor since he's the most racional of all the vault hunters the whole game feels really off
@@DarkDan76 *Rational And yeah I completely agree, even though Mordecai was absolutely pissed at Bloodwings death and Roland's, he didn't do anything stupid because of it It's almost like he's a better written character
Ava dying instead of Maya would've been intensely more powerful and dark. Maya's quest for revenge and feelings of having failed Ava would've not only driven the player to finish the story more, but Lilith's sacrifice and leaving Maya in charge would've helped Maya start the road to forgiving herself. Instead Borderlands 3 ripped off the original Jason Todd. At least David Eddings dodged this subpar bullet of a game. The Godfather 3 curse continues.
I concur, @@ronaneverett8202. Heck, with BL2 Roland did not even need to die if the New U stations were canon like they originally were. That cutscene could of become one of BL2's defining moments of having a mega boss fight with Handsome Jack, but instead of dying he goes into Fight For Your Life mode, but still drops fantastic loot regardless. From there Jack has a literal digistructed bot army materialize around you. Lilith teleports herself and Roland back to Sanctuary. You quickly find out that you can not take on a literal 50+ bot army that appeared out of thin air five to ten seconds ago. You run back to the elevator you came from in the nick of time, go up it, but find out that Jack deactivated all of the New U stations up to Brick's area. All the while you are being harshly fired upon seemingly from all directions as you frantically run back to Brick's area. The New U stations would of made for some of the most creative writing for the series if they were canon.
Nope, @@Madmaxgaming130. Take Two will make this DLC in the most convoluted of ways imaginable. It will be the most expensive DLC in modern video game history too!
...does she? Maybe there was more plot in the DLCs that I'm unaware of but the only noticeable difference IMO between BL2 Tina and BL3 Tina is that she's older and somewhat more coherent.
Mia Lia or ellie, that would’ve been badass, if they were going to choose random characters anyways i think ava is the last character that shouldn’t gotten siren powers.
TheMellonMan i agree with that more then who i thought before Moxxi is someone who should’ve become a siren before anybody else in bl3, she’s extremely more capable then tannis and ava. plus she would’ve become even more badass then she is now. that’s a definite good point dude, why didn’t moxxi become a siren? i mean their clearly just handing out those powers to anybody if their willing to give it to ava.
Max Fischer oh no, Krieg IS well written, I think he just means they did him dirty by neglecting him in BL3 and totally destroying whatever potential he had for a future with Maya. If he isn’t stable/at peace with his inner sane voice and his outer, psychotic Krieg self in the future, I think it’s fair to say Maya’s passing means he pretty much LOST whatever chance he had at becoming a normal man again. If anything, finding out about her will actually rip Krieg apart even MORE.
Feels like they tried to pull an Ahsoka with Ava, but forgot how our favorite padawan got to where she is. They saw a rebellious youth who defied orders, but everyone still loved. However, they forgot that Ahsoka was unbearable until a couple seasons in, when she got her whole squad killed, and realized that, due to her position in a war, her actions directly affect others. After that, she learned from her mistakes, and the rest is history
Good comparison. It also helped that Ahsokas Master was Anakin, who was arguably as reckless and rebellious as her and always had that “Ok Ahsoka, normally we shouldn’t be doing this, but whatever it works” kinda attitude. It was fun and interesting to see both master and student struggle with the same flaw.
Blue Hazard if they do they need to give him wayyyy more lines because in bl3 he has some great lines but its almost as if the other characters don't even talk to him they just say one or two words then they start talking about killing people again
When Maya died I really thought “ah finally, a point where Ava’s character is going to turn around. Her rebellious nature got Maya killed, she’s going to change. Ah, Character growth.” Instead Ava just kept going absolutely bonkers and never took responsibility for the death of Maya. And she got off easy for it, no character points out HER mistake. (Which would be harsh for a little pre teen but she’d still need to hear it. Especially because she keeps shifting blame to Lilith)
And it's especially the fact she's like this that someone NEEDED to call her out on it. Now she has no concept of action/consequence and doesn't accept responsibility for her actions because she doesn't have to.
Yea exactly tiny Tina had accepted Roland's death and began to show she has changed in no longer grieving but than to accept that she is now able to move on and grow up
Yeah, was hoping to see that as a quest or during the quest... she sort of made up with Lilith, but didn’t once say it was her fault. It’s Twin’s fault, but Ava didn’t help the situation.
I find this hard to believe that none of those characters call her out on that, I feel like Lilith or Moxxi would have if not them then maybe Ellie after the way ava shift the blame to Lilith.
I like how the player does everything but the cutscenes are only focused on the main characters. I like to imagine that the vault hunters just go sit at some corner or staircase and eat some sandwich while the drama happens between the others.
When i played as Commando in Borderlands 2 , when a cutscene happened i imagine my character eating some snacks or sandwichs in the corner and the drinking something , like "Hell yeah , this TV show its realy good , its looks real , *Its real* , oh no , they killed roland , sad sand moment"
@@KonpakuYoumu2003 it could be cannon that that is how it works. "HEY SALVADOR, IS IT OK IF ALL THE DWORFS IN MY GAME LOOK LIKE YOU?" A distant Salvador. "AWESOME" They're clearly around and real people even in cut scenes and directly referenced in gameplay.
Just my opinion but they really should have killed her instead of Maya, her story would be so much darker. Maya's character could have been built around revenge as a failed teacher, that would be so much interesting and Lilith making her a head of CR would make sense as well. Maya really didn't deserve to go like this...
@@guacamoleguy6592 I totally agree with you. If Ava was a fully developed character shown to have a bond with Maya as something truly akin to teacher and student who actually learned from Maya during the course of the game Maya's death could have been meaningful. But Ava doesn't grow or change, and causes the death of her mentor and a character who player's have walked in the shoes of. Ava sucks and just gets in the way.
@@A_Dennis because bad writing who doesn't care about their characters. If you're trying to say then why did Maya die it's because there can be only 7 sirens at all times. And Tyreen is a siren leech. If you were expecting her to come back and be ok then that's on you. I saw it when I saw her coming back. Although didn't see Troy being the one to take her power. Was expecting a all out battle with Tyreen who has almost all the siren powers. But ya Sirens are going to die like every game they introduce a new one. Ava probably will die in BL6 or something.
Short Version: Tina's shenanigans lead to hilarious deaths of fodder bad guys... and her exes, eventually Ava's whining lead to the death of a beloved character and was not punished for it
Lilith saying to Ava, Sanctuary is hers, doesn't immediately make her the boss. It's hers, not hers to command. Lilith might also have said it to motivate Ava to keep going, not to promote her to captain. People are just never able to think a bit further.
@@nightmareTomek The Borderlands Show, episode 2, around the 1:18:00 point, the writer says Lilith did hand over Sanctuary to Ava. He also implies the only consideration for this leadership role were other Sirens (for some unexplained reason), so either Tannis or Ava. www.twitch.tv/videos/508064652?collection=NzvASins1hWvTA
Just means there won't be a sequel because Sanctuary is definitely dead if Ava is leading in anything. It was obviously Mordecai that had the right mindset and leadership skills to lead the Crimson Raiders back in BL2 but the writers obviously hate Males so much they decided to not even grant more than 2 scenes per male character.
Borderlands 3 in a nutshell: Vault Hunters: “Alright Lilith, we completed that mission you tasked us with” Lilith: “Good job, Ava!” Vault Hunters: “Wait, what?!” I’ve also heard the DLC for Borderlands 3 is going to be heavily Ava focused. I hope they can do damage control on her character, because I did not like what I saw from her in the base game.
Ava: -Moans - "YOU KILLED MAYA" after literally getting caught in a hostage situation - gets powers cause lmao - for some reason is the successor to lilith when Mordecai exists - literal whingy emo child - somehow worse then claptrap Tina: - Has Assault on Dragon Keep. A DLC has a better story for a character then the vanilla campaign for Ava
@@NuclearRaven13 yeah, as to be expected since lilith is pretty much the main character of the borderlands franchise. Hell, if they wanted a borderlands character in smash bros, Lilith would be the easy choice. A side character, as much of a favorite side character as Tina is, got better writing then the "main character" of BL3
@@ceriani1234 IKR i feel like Im the only on who hate Lilith sometimes. Would have been better if Maya was the main one but that will never happen now.
@@futureelement924 all the bl2 vh's should of been part of the main story, like a passing of the torch. Salvador and krieg not being present in these events is a crime, same with gaige.
Roland: dies and is mega grieved over despite being one of the least interesting character classes from BL1 Maya: Dies and is literally barely mentioned by the other characters aside from having a funeral that is literally played up as a joke.
@@bbobbiegurl467 I think he means the NPCs and other main characters in game, after Roland died in BL2 if you go anywhere near an NPC in Sanctuary they will start talking about his death
I find it rich that that she says Ava shouldn't need a DLC to further the character when Tiny Tina's DLC is what made Tina incredibly lovable. She is a better character to begin with but the DLC is what made her unforgettable
A guilt ridden Ava who has to come to terms with Maya's death and learn the use of Maya's power, which she doesn't want to, as she feels unworthy, and has to train and earn her powers, would have been a great character arc for her. But tragically we lost the cool and collected Maya and got bratty entitled Ava...
Bls 4 sanctuary has been destroid by the stupidity of ava because she presed the botton that said no not press and now you have to hunt down ava as she went to hida as the little cubt she is
@@fumarc4501 i would love that zane became the Captain! all the other new vault hunters are dead written and poor executed, so boring while zane is God tier character
Tiny tina: uses her trauma as a reason to stay energetic and keep everyone around her happy Ava: uses her trauma to guilt trip others and cant control her own anger
Having dowloaded the Directors cut DLC, having scene that there are animatics with full on voice overs that actually show Ellie putting Ava in her place during Maya's funeral. I can safely say I hate this character now more than ever. She really is just a writers pet, someone saw themselves in Ava and felt the need to protect this character from any real criticism, reward her for doing basically nothing, and ultimately make her vital to future games.
Dont forget the lost characters: Janey springs, athena, axton, that one gunzerker, Fiona and her sister aaaand some other characters the story didnt include or touch. BL3 has one of the weakest story out of all borderlands games.
@@XXXX-yb9oc I enjoyed it more than BL1 tbh. BL1 just didn't really have much to it. BL3 has a lot of problems, but at least we got stuff like Balex in the story which is great
The moment that sold me on Tina “You can’t just pretend Roland isn’t dead” “I KNOW! I know… but this is my story…” It showed that for all the smiles and bunnies and glitter, she knows how horrible her life is and just wants to be ok, to act like it’s fine… it’s heart wrenchingly real. At the same time, she also tries to move forward and improve in some ways, heck at the funeral of Roland she accepts his death and faces it when she had been avoiding it the entire dlc…. The moment that solidified my hate for Ava was the death of Maya… she disobeyed repeatedly, got Maya killed, blamed Lilith when Lilith was the one who was trying to prevent any unnecessary deaths, and took no responsibility…. If she had taken responsibility and felt guilt for Maya’s death and tried to improve after that moment I’d have loved her tbh.
Ava seems to be the byproduct of a new push in writing and character design. You can see this in a lot of media; games, movies, and comics alike, where there's one protagonist, usually female, who is heralded as beyond scrutiny in that world, who fails upwards at every pass, and seems to exist only because the writers themselves love the character or want to use that character to 'correct' other characters in the series. This new push is done by amateur writers who have near sighted ideals, feel they have the right to 'correct' legacy IPs, and put a lot of focus on forced diversity and similar ideals. The people writing these characters don't generally know how to write a good character and see no reason to try.
@@vallahdsacretor4839 It's not even new, It's been going on for awhile. Half of it is politically motivated, as you said. The other half is ego-motivated. Writers who get handed the reins to major franchises often seem to get massively bloated senses of self-worth, especially if they're inexperienced, and then promptly go on an ego trip. This kind of butchering doesn't even apply to new characters, it has been done to legacy characters as well. A prime example of this was Sylvanas Windrunner in Warcraft. She went from being one of the most beloved characters in the franchise to being absolutely depised because the writing team got high on their own farts and made the entire world narrative revolve around her for half a decade. They convinced themselves they were writing a masterwork of grey morality and everyone was going to fall in love with the character as much as they had. And then in the end, she remained so hated that if she ever shows up again in the franchise there would be a not impossible potential for some nutcases to go firebomb Blizzard HQ in retaliation, with the sheer depths of hatred that she has inspired. Nevertheless, the team remained completely HELLBENT on believing that all the "haters" were just being loud and obnoxious and everyone was going to love their precious and perfect Sylvanas at the end, right up until the end actually occurred, and they were "blindsided" with the fact that nobody did.
Also Tina is a character that fits within the borderlands series. She shows it in a way by saying funny things that make her memorable while Ava is just a girl who we don't care about
The moment when Ava blamed Lilith for Maya's death and Lilith just accepted it, cementing Ava as a simple Mary Sue, was really the moment the writing in the game was irredeemable.
It could've been worse. She could've been tortured by the Calypsos and then after we rescue her she would take a shower to instantly heal her wounds and pretend like nothing of that happened, like a certain purple dragon-thing.
did you interact with Lilith after that scene again? Lilith explains that Ava blames herself for Mayas Death and projects her pain outwards on others... It's a thing i've seen teenagers do quite often. Oh and if Krieg comes back he most likely will become one of Avas Guardians as she is the protege of his beloved Maya and as seen in the death scene Maya put her protection over her own live, she is kinda like her adopted child making her protect worthy for him too.
The whole backstory thing really is a slap in the face. Thing is, it's not just a matter of presentation and the way it was presented, it's also a matter of narrative cause and effect. Tina's loss of her parents pretty well explains her current state, physical and mental. Ava's hardened orphan survivor backstory doesn't exactly explain how she learned to be entitled and mouth off to threats that were obviously above her station. You'd think she was smarter than that. The only conclusion is that Maya must have been a really, really awful teacher and guardian in the interim, but then I'm just imagining writing that isn't there to try and explain their nonsense.
Ava was a young teenager when she was orphaned. Let's assume she was 13, the absolute youngest you can be and still be considered a teenager. Two and a half years later she encounters maya. She's either 15 or 16, depending on if she was closer to her 13th or 14th birthday. She's 18 in BL3, which takes place 7 years after BL2. She had, at most, two and a half years of training from Maya. Excluding the weird deus ex machina of Maya somehow KNOWING Ava would inherit her siren powers, she spent most of that time having Ava meditate and clean, trying to teach Ava discipline (something Ava failed to learn). Tina lost her birth parents as a child in a hyperion facility, and it deeply scarred her psyche to the point of developing an obsession with explosives. And when Roland died, it broke her even further, the only way for her to recover was to retreat into a fantasy world where everything went as planned. Both of them are orphans who lost a guiding teacher and parental figure. The difference is that, whilst both Roland and Maya are killed by the antagonist, only Tina seems to really acknowledge that Roland died, that she's basically alone now. Ava's anger at Lilith is skipping an entire stage of grief. New-U and fast travel are canon to the borderlands games, so Ava's immediate response should, in my opinion, have been to park at the fast travel station on Sanctuary until someone physically moved her. And then one of the BL2 vault hunters appears. Not Maya, one of the others. Could be any of them, though ideally it'd be either Salvador or Krieg. If it's Salvador, he reads her the riot act, and tells her in detail how Maya's death is HER fault. If it's Krieg, they'd have to physically hold him back to stop him going on a psycho rampage. Maya was the one thing holding his mind together, and with her gone, well, there's nothing more dangerous than someone with nothing left to lose
@@sev1120 Sorry, but you're wrong about New-U being canon to the game. The writer of BL2 has come out and personally said that they aren't canon. So much of Borderlands would not make sense if they were. Jack and Angel wouldn't have died in the second game, none of the vault hunters would have been allowed to use them since he wanted them dead and Roland likely wouldn't have died. New-U stations are there for gameplay balancing sake only, hence why in Tiny Tina's Assault on the Dragon Keep and in Borderlands TPS, they have quotes literally saying "We're not canon."
@@VinylDashMusic one of the literal first things said in BL1 is telling you about New-U stations, and how they work. Granted, it may have been changed later, but I was running under the assumption that exposition in the first 5 minutes of gameplay is considered canon
My reason for hating Ava? She assumed control over Sanctuary after being introduced just earlier, and has literally done nothing to have deserved the position. She just appeared and now we have to listen to her.
when i heard that i couldnt believe it. The VH does literally everything, and apparently is just chopped liver. a skag would make a better captain of the ship. or Tannis' former minecart lover.
She was given control because she sparked a fire in Lilith that had died. Maya could have explained to Ava that she'd inherit her powers, but because Maya's powers were abused as a child she was afraid of telling Ava too soon she'd inherit the powers.
I hate Ava due to the fact that she killed Maya in that situation, blames Lilith for it, states that Lilith killed Handsome Jack, not us! and the fact she gets siren powers in the end when she doesn't deserve them.
lazyartist Last I hate how the VH is completely ignored or pushed into portals in literally every cutscene and even and plays zero part in anything outside direct gameplay
Whenever Vaughn speaks and pretty much everything after Maya’s death was really poorly written. Like the writers just went out and decided to do some crack before they finished writing the story and dialogue.
Pajamapants Jack, what makes it even worse is that the Vault Hunters that we are playing as are almost completely written out of the story and Ava is the one that’s being pushed as if she’s the main protagonist.
@@xsomili5501 I completely agree, Lilith being there just made it easier for Jack but Roland just wasn't paying attention. Ava antagonized the Calypso's and indirectly got Maya killed
@@ruined_maze1370 No, if Lilith wasn't there for Jack to use Jack never would have dared to show up at that point in time and kill Roland, you know why? Because there were 4 fucking vault hunters standing right there.
That’s Bc u are with Tina for like a single quest and she isn’t even actively there on that quest she just tells u where to go and what to do and then u go on with your life
@@connorstetts859 Tina has multiple questlines across the main game and dlcs including an entire dlc that is basically JUST tiny Tina character growth. She has more screen time then Ava, but that isn't the issue with Ava. It's her behaving in a way that players find reprehensible and the game doing it's very best to tell you she is right or justified in her behavior. The only time the game corrects any of Ava's shitty behavior is when Tannis tells he she shouldn't be so mad at Lilith after mayas death. This does is so offbase with everyone who played it because we just watched Ava get Maya killed as a direct result of her disobedience inexperience and carelessness
@@connorstetts859 Ava was SPECIFICALLY told to STAY ON SANCTUARY by Maya, the only reason Maya died was because Ava not only broke Maya's rule, she ALSO antagonized the calypso's when they were LITERALLY GOING TO LEAVE WITHOUT KILLING ANYONE.
Ava feels like all the negative ageist stereotypes for teenagers were rolled up into a single character. As a late teen myself she strikes a special chord of annoyance for me. No teens actually act like that, and if they do, it's right to the bottom of whatever social hierarchy they find themselves in.
@@humanbeans4498 didn't believe it was a word until I heard it either. Then I heard it again in Bojack Horseman so it's apparently a decently wide reaching term, accurate and fitting too.
@@addison_v_ertisement1678 It isn't, is the thing. First of all, ageism is barely a thing at all. Most people who complain about "ageism" are young people who don't want to accept the reality that people with more experience than them might actually understand the nuance of a situation or issue better than they do. Most actual genuine so-called "ageism" is shit like anti-boomer sentiment where idiotic younger people presume that older people are wrong solely on the basis that they're older. Yes, there are idiots who believe that young people are always wrong on the basis of being young, but they're an EXTREME rarity, where as the opposite is common enough that things like "OK Boomer" have become actual widespread memes in years past. But that's beside the point, because Ava's problems have nothing to do with "ageism". The narrative hook of a student causing the death of their mentor is a tale as old as storytelling. The thing is, the point of it is typically to make the student character in question recognize that the reason that their mentor's death occurred was due to their own inexperience, or some other character flaw such as disobedience towards those who are in authority over them. And then, from that point on it becomes a focal point that allows them to grow over time and become a better person. That tragedy becomes an experience that they allow to better themselves. Ava's got the first half and not the second half. She causes the death of her mentor directly due to her lack of obedience and her unfounded insistence that she is capable of notably contributing despite a complete lack of experience. But instead of reflecting on what that says about her and how she needs to improve as a person, she just passes the blame onto someone else. She never improves, she never grows, she just shunts the impetus onto someone completely innocent and the rancid storytelling /backs her up/, which is what truly turns her from just a poorly written character to a genuinely despicable one.
Tina's reaction to and processing of Roland's death was one of the most gutwrenchting things I've ever encountered in a video game, and that wasn't even the point of the dlc; it was just an aside. The best part about Tina is that you *want* to learn more about her, because you only interact with her in short bursts, and that gets you to pay attention to those little bits like her denialism and mask of insanity.
If Tina didn't act like a psycho, she could literally be held as a foremost expert in explosives and pyrotechnics. She has more experience with explosives than I the guys at Hyperion who make them.
To undo Ava’s character, they have to make her the villain in the 4th. She gets power hungry with sanctuary and her siren powers grow stronger. It’ll be more enjoyable that way
plot: she sends Sanctuary into chaos and ruin, as her power sends her into a massive power-mad state. could be cool if we got the BL3 hunters again (they could be actually used in a meaningful way, instead of losing all hope of being recognized in the story) as they fight their way through the power. obviously, she thinks she can use a Vault to absorb more power, but this leaves her weak. the hunters kill the big ol’ monster, and when Ava reawakens, she is enraged to see the kill stolen. she attacks, still weak, and gets herself crippled because of the Hunters. she fuckin’ DIES
I'm more disappointedly resigned than violently opposed to Ava, but what if Ava IS quickly killed by Krieg or somebody, averting prophetic visions from the siren gang? Now they have to worry about not knowing what's coming, avoiding boring prophecy plotlines in the future. Suddenly it's cool again.
@@seanhennessy3968 It would make the story a whole lot better that's for sure. Besides we all know Krieg isn't gonna let some spoiled brat stay alive after everything she's ruined. And Gearbox isn't gonna milk anything out of Ava since she's hated by almost the entire fanbase. So unless they want to be backlashed like a Star Wars Battlefront Game her death is pretty much guaranteed.
@@tekkena.seccin3935 They won't. It wouldn't make sense for Krieg to do something like that. Especially with someone who got his girlfriend killed. If anything Krieg would be hunting her down so he could jam a buzzaxe in her skull.
I remember they came out with a storyboard of a funeral for Maya where they give her the send off she deserved. In it Ava and Lilith have a heart to heart where Ava admits it was her fault that Maya died and that Lilith never caused anyone to die, which Lilith says that she did lose someone she cared about from her actions. Sadly the whole thing was scrapped and we got instead Ava being a horrible brat and Lilith essentially saying “she knew it was a dangerous life, back to stations everyone.” Just spit on such a loved character
@@miumiu5206 what are you talking about? She never blamed Athena. She blamed Jack the one that killed him and then blamed herself and then she developed as a character and moved past it like she had a whole arc to get over it and evolve as a leader in the DLC before BL3
Ava is very Mary Sue-ish. “She’s got blue hair and she-she gets the powers of maya and everyone likes her and she’s got a sad backstory and she becomes the leader of the good guys, plz donut stale”
Welp, we got Krieg back and Ava got left out of his arc entirely. I think everyone at Gearbox realized how much Ava was hated. Wasn't she supposed to be the core focus of most dlcs?
I find the part where Ava miraculously knows how to use her powers also applies in part to the twins. I mean, Lilith and Maya were both experienced vault hunters that went through a lot of fight, but they got owned without even a scratch on their opponents. I can accept Maya (element of surprise) but not Lilith.
True. Lilith has been a Vault Hunter for a decade at this point. You'd think she'd be prepared for a surprise attack from someone trying to take the pandoran vault key.
zer0: does nothing significant, minor character axton: gone krieg: gone salvador: gone gaige: appears in a dlc but gone in the base game maya: fucking dies pathetically before she can be realized as a proper character ava's a good replacement for all ur beloved characters, amirite guys?
The next dlc is supposedly meant to be about Krieg though I doubt it'll be anything spectacular just a couple of missions with him then introduce to another empty shell of a character.
You know, it feels like they tried making Tiny tina again with Ava, with her being an orphan and losing her mentor, but failed miserably, Tina is actually sad when Roland dies and doesn't blame anyone but Jack, we actually learn things about her and her character through echo logs and her dlc. Ava is just chasing a shadow
Ava feels like she is entitled everything for no reason Tina actually worked for what she has and also her parents where murdered and we feel for her Ava makes me wanna send her out the airlock ....
She could have been humbled by Maya's death, or inspired by the people work who actually did work in Sanctuary (and mature) - instead, her head grows even bigger.
I don't get why people hated pickle so much. At least he felt like a genuine character. I liked how he always sounded excited about what was going on, and wasn't trying to layer on some cringey ghetto talk like Tina.
@@ronchum5178 I can appreciate Pickle's character, but I can only take so much of him. Plus I hated all of his quests and only liked a couple of the rewards (that ghost buster laser and that mouthy shotgun).
@@IrrelevantOaf He was good in the main quest though. The side quests did get tedious. Plus his echo logs in the claptrap DLC were genuinely more heartbreakingt than the entire Dragon's keep DLC.
Moral of the story: When writing a story for ANYTHING, if the hero has to have a sidekick, make sure they would be more like a proper Robin instead of a god-damn Scrappy Doo.
When I played through Ava's sidequest, I was entirely sympathetic towards her. Not only did she have a terrible childhood, having her parents killed and living in the streets eating garbage to survive, now there's this asshole soldier finding enjoyment in making fun of an orphan and broadcasting her diary to the entire planet. I really felt sorry for her during that sidequest, especially because her voice actress nailed Ava's emotions and seemed to be on the verge of crying the more the asshole read her diary. But then the game stopped characterizing her all of a sudden! After you get the guy, she just brushes it off and goes back to status quo! And then blames Lilith for Maya's death when it was her own fault for not being in Sanctuary! Seriously, Ava should have had another sidequest immediately after that one where she runs away and Maya asks you track her down, so they can all talk about her past and help her move forward! That would have made Ava far better of a character than what she ended up being!
The side quest was a huge missed opportunity to show that she was probably more than a rebellious and entitled brat. Finally we as players were opening up to her and could understand why she was upset. Then she could have evolved a little bit, then after Maya's death, she would be in grief and self hating, but the awful writing decided that she should remain a freaking one dimensional brat who constantly blames others for her actions!!
The sad thing is there are 2 scrapped cut scenes that correct Ava's lack of character growth. The first was a different post-Maya death on Sactuary, where Ava is mostly silent and traumatized while Lillith takes the lead in the scene. The other scene was cut completely and it's a travesty. They had planned on doing a cut scene for Maya's funeral. A good chunck of the cut scene is Ava and Lillith sitting on a ledge looking over the funeral and genuinely having a heart to heart. It completely recontextualizes her actions after from "Everyone else is the problem not me." stance she seems to have in the game, to "I fucked up royally and if I don't do better and pitch in, we're all fucked because of it."
@@richardmazkin9994 Oh yeah, I remember hearing about that. I guess the reason they scrapped it is because of the current trend in character Western writing, where main female lead can never be wrong or question her methods. And let's be real here, Ava is supposed to be the main character aside from the Vault Hunter, she's the one that gets trained by the Siren and has to reclaim her power after the guy that killed her mentor dies while everyone else opens the path for her to fulfil her destiny.
The real reason is Tiny Tina felt like a little sister and Ava is like the human version of when Hot Rod got Optimus Prime killed and somehow gets the matrix of leadership.
i feel like they tried too hard to model the Calypso twins around Handsome Jackes cold and heartless humor....you cain't capture lighting in a bottle twice.
Handsome jack is the kind of guy you Love but also Hate. like he is funny, but you also want to shoot him in the face because...well he is trying to kill you, and taunts you, but he taunts you in a way that makes you happy to finally face him. with the twins i just wanted to shoot them. i didnt want to hear more about them, i didnt want to do anything but shoot them in the face.
@@The8thblock It's the sociopath charisma he has. He's a lot like Tyler Durden from the Fight Club movie. Both are decently smart, charming, and cool. All of that mixed together with some delusions of grandeur, or just flat out craziness, makes the concoction that has created some of the most likable asshole heroes and villains in fiction
I wish it wasn't so obvious the writers were trying to model the twins after Handsome Jack. They knew that everybody loved Jack, so they just wanted Jack again but with some twist. The twist being there's two of them and they have space magic
The scene in Borderlands 2 where Tina detonates the explosive early is an excellent example of character development and story progression. “10... 9...” BOOM!!! “I got bored.” I felt it was one of the most perfectly balanced moments in the series.
Tbh I actually liked Ava, because I thought she’d develop and grow as a character, until Maya got killed and I realised that Ava really was a one trick pony whose only emotion was teenager angst
Hell as a Mordecai main from 1 I’ve still never forgiven Jack for what he did to Bloodwing. But it worked. Maya’s death is a straight up insult. Pure and simple.
yep i was like you know ava sucks, but man maya looks good, then boom ava gets maya killed. i took a break from borderlands 3 for a few weeks. every time i tried to play for the next month i was to mad to play.
@@ichigokage Bloodwing was cruel. But that was truly an elaborate evil plan that added to Jack's Evil character, to our hate that we have towards him and caused a very big impact in Mordecai and us players. Maya's death was so stupid, it was an insult to the fans and simply bad writing. And Ava is there to put salt on the injury.
most of the twins success was bs asspulls tbf, lilith straight up forgetting she's in the middle of a fight to the death, maya grabbing troy with her hands when she could use her powers, the twins getting instant full mastery of any power they get...
I actually felt bad for Tina like her 3rd quest in Boderlands 2 for her tea party, the raider was saying how her family was killed and how she watched but Tina continued to torture him. It wasn’t just some tea party to have bc of being alone or anything, it was to get revenge on one of the people who killed her family.
Lilith: "Ava, Sanctuary is yours." Player: "But... um..." Gearbox: "Here's new DLC! Save the universe!" Player: "Oh, I heard Ava's running things now. She can handle it without me."
Matthew Turner They say that, but the message they convey is that the players are different than “other” vault hunters (as evidenced by them turning down Jack/Aurelia/Tyreen’s offers). If they had “given” Sanctuary to the Vault Hunters, at least that would give something interesting to work with in BL4 (the 4 current VH act as a council, and the player plays new heroes). Guess the impulsive child, that only wants to run around looting, is running the show now.
yep the end it's like oh and ava you get sanctuary, like wait a fucking second. what about ellie, or moxxi, or even tanis. no you give sanctuary to the teenager that got maya killed. and contributed like nothing to the story.
Tina: Actually deep and tragic. Backstory told as immersive experience without her reaction since we can't exactly do anything about it anyway, and bringing it up would just cause more harm. Ava: Pathetic and badly written. Backstory told as a joke with her pathetically trying to cover it up to keep her pathetic tough girl act together. I had fun with Tina, and ocationally messed with Claptrap, but after the Rampager boss-fight, I had a bigger murder-boner for Ava and Troy than I did Tyreen.
Tyreen just falls flat in the plot. Ava's a character I hate, but has all the necessary ingredients for character development, and imho, Troy may have killed my favourite Vault Hunter pre-BL3, but he also had a lot of potential for an alternative rival, *especially* when you look at some of the sidequests, backstory of Troy and Tyreen and even the BOSS FIGHT with Troy. Both of them are HUGE wasted potential. Ava's just a lot more obvious with that wasted potential, and is crammed down your throat more.
I liked troy i feel the story would of been better if tyreen was killed by troy for being stepped on and called a leach for his entire life and have troy tge destroyer with a small mechanical arm it would of been funny
@@daftmi9hty327 yup they pretty much waste his potential. The final boss should be DesTROYer not Tyreen the DeSTroYer (really miss their opportunity there)
@@Jfrost9101 Yeah I really liked the part where Troy was killing Tyreen for more power. I was like "Woah this is an interesting plot twist... Now the story gets good." but nope. They just kinda ignored that and finished the original plot.
I honestly don't think it was a 'deleted scene'. I think even that's giving the writers too much credit. It was put in as part of one of the last dlcs of the game well over a year after launch. Plenty of time to make the scene and go 'iT wAs ToTaLlY dElEtEd ScEnE yOu GuYs'
He's probably busy having someone try to blow up the ocean again or something, but yeah, we need more Torgue (and please don't have Torgue be one of the future screw up companies like Dahl, Atlas, Hyperion...)
I swear if they make Krieg a boss or something because he goes insane cause he finds out that Ava killed Maya (basically) and attacks Ava on sight i will be very sad
when you play through a game ten times over, you begin to notice small things about the narrative. inflection. motives. design choices. I've completed 3 four times so far, and all I've noticed is how much I detest every character in the game. (cept for Traunt, I love that prick) Troy and Tyreen are terrible villains. Tyreen specifically is the worst. Her taunts to the player are more of an annoyance than anything. even by my tenth playthrough I never got tired of hearing Jack or any of the bandit bosses taunting me over the echo... with Tyreen I was getting tired of hearing her voice by the second playthrough. She's just not good. At some point in the story it's quite obvious that there was a change in writers, if everything that happened on Eden-6 is any indication. It seemed like they were setting up Troy to kill his sister and become the main villain, which I would have actually liked. But no, he just remains a weak secondary antagonist.
With the twins, I think that they had potential, but despite how massive the game is, they still got too little space, too little nuance. Like you say, the part where Troy actually gets powers of his own and starts rebelling a bit against Tyreen looks like a start of something fun. Yet it kinda just...fizzles out.
The saddest part, I arguably can't even consider them the worst Borderlands antagonists, that dishonour goes to Commandant Steele from Borderlands 1. Even though they were poorly executed, and they were full of wasted potential, at least the twins were memorable for all the wrong reasons. Steele on the other hand, despite being the main antagonist of Borderlands 1, was so forgettable that even Borderlands 2 forgot she existed, and that game remembered General Knoxx, who's a way better antagonist.
@@cleanerben9636 Yeah. The truth is that the previous games were made before woke-ism destroyed the industry. BL3 sucking so bad is just one of the symptoms.
come for the gameplay, stay for the gameplay. All i end up doing when i pop on the game is either discord call with friends or a podcast everytime cause the story genuinely never got interesting and worth hearing a second time
@@boxtank5288 It's like that and Weinright and Hammerlock are well written ignoring how Hammerlock acts towards his sister cause they flipped her personality from wanting to distance herself from her brother realizing she fucked up being the worst to him to magically she is now super mega awful person who wants to keep fucking with him
Ava has little character, gets Maya killed, spends the whole time whining, has literally no experience in combat, and completely backseats the players achievements and becomes way more important in the story than she should be.
Hopefully she doesn't appear at all, but if she does, then I actually would prefer she be a playable character. That way, if I don't play her, she doesn't exist . . .
@@drchicken2477 Since we still have the Great War, I'm guessing they will have one game with all the old Vault Hunters/ Vault Hunters with similar abilities to Those who are dead as the climactic ending to Borderlands. Either Way Ava is coming back, lets just hope they realize their mistake with her and actually try to make her a character.
I really hoped that Tina would be playable in 3. Kind of related: I hoped the roster would be entirely old npcs, like Tina, Marcus, Moxxi, Zed, Ellie, etc. But I suppose that's not really Borderlands' MO. Oh well.
@@kindredtoast3439 that doesn’t allow for very much of a new plot development, it’s just choosing people you already know, it’d be like just having a super long dlc with some weird mod on to gain different abilities
Another amateur Ava's story arc rewrite: After blaming everyone but herself, Ava finally realizes that Maya's death was partially/entirely her fault, she then decides to go back to Athenas and study. She doesn't play a major role in the story until Lillith asks her to attack the cathedral of the twin gods with them, Ava declines. After Troy's death and the fake-out ending, the rocks are lifted up off-camera by Ava, who is reintroduced with Maya's book in her arms.
@@Smitty_Werbluntjaegermanjensen It's a silent rule that kids don't hit the off switch like that. If they did that of how quick we would have hit it for her.
Tina: demonizes Angel in her portrayal in Assault on Dragon Keep and blames her for Roland's death Everyone: is understanding but express to Tina that she's going too far bc Angel was just as much a victim of Handsome Jack as Roland and everyone else Ava: blames Lilith for Maya's death and shows no regard for her own role in it Everyone: *crickets chirping*
Lilith wasn't even around and was making bad calls in general. She also loses every fight but besides that Avas dumbass directly killed Maya. Maya wouldn't have grabbed Troy if she wasn't there she wanted to leave but Ava kept talking and talking about her eventual (and unearned) power. Angel DID betray us technically she wasn't 100% on our side until the second half of BL2 of course Tina would find it hard to see her as the victim. Tina despite living alone and being capable she knew how to listen. She's basically crazy and STILL respects the leaders and adults. Ava couldn't even understand her basically surrogate mother saying "They're gonna kill us they just ate a vault monster kid"
The thing that made me mad was when you return to Sanctuary and Ava says to Lilith “do something before you get someone killed” But you did that Ava. You literally just did that.
the worst thing is, that the new Vault Hunzer theoreticaly could have done something, as the Cutscene rolls after we come out of the Vault and literally have to go right behind those 2. If it rolled when we picked up the Eridian Artifact it would have been a better Choice imo
there was actually a planned cutscene with a much larger funeral for Maya, in it Ava confesses that the reason behind her blowing up at everyone is because she knows that it was her fault. And in turn, Lilith comforts her and tells her about Roland, and how she felt that it was her fault he died. It literally would've turned Ava from the worst character in BL3 to at least tolerable, and with some extra padding and a DLC I feel she could've actually *been* likeable.
@@bobmclovinelectricboogaloo it interrupted the flow apparently, but if I had to guess, there was just complications in trying to release the game, so they got rid of anything that didn't directly serve to move the main story forward before shipping.
I think we all need one special cutscene: Ava does something mega deadly stupid and Krieg punches her down and says: you're not pretty lady stay down or reap your lungs out
In Tiny Tinas dlc, she actually made my eyes get a little tears, her grief in there was so emotional imo... even thinking about it when you talk about it almost makes me get tears in my eyes.
Honestly, i has a little bit of hope for ava. If they do her dlc right, she could be a good character. She always had a good setup, but the writing just didnt made her character work.
Me too that made rolands death even better. And it made tiny tina a loveable character. That whole dlc being imagined as a board game was fucking amazing i miss it..
Before I see the video, here's my thoughts: 1) Tina isn't a forced REPLACEMENT for any character, she's purely an ADDITION to the team. 2) Ava is just greedy and has very little depth of character. She's just a street rat who looks up to Maya while Tina is the psychotic stick of TNT and explosion of fun. 3) They are on completely different wavelengths, resonating with different audiences. Tina resonates with the deranged viewer that is a borderlands fan while Ava appeals to soap opera viewers. It's not so much that Ava is just a terrible character. It's that Ava is one of the huge tone shifts that makes no sense for the borderlands scene, piled on top of all the other aspects reshaping the game between 2/PS and 3 and making the ones who loved the original borderlands hate 3 while the new audience they were trying to pander to still had no interest in the series.
They did Maya dirty in this iteration of Borderlands. Also, I wish there was an option, similar to changing Claptrap's antenna, to slap the little snot when she gets lippy.
"Can I be... mega-real? Sometimes I feel like if I don't keep moving I'll just... stop? Maybe it's a defense mechanism? Whatever. It's nothing." - Tiny Tina in the Commander Lilith DLC
UsoppTheWeaboo I think it’s because she feels like she has to be ‘energetic’ and ‘ready to run.’ Especially with what she went through in her earlier years.
I'll break it down for you, if she stops moving she will have time to think about things, leading to thoughts of rolands deaths and the pain that comes with it, if she keeps moving forward she doesnt have much time to think about things, also self analyzing herself, realizing what she is doing but still is in denial by saying whatever, its nothing, when really shes hit the nail on the head. Just my 2 cents.
The assault on dragon keep dlc was heart shattering when I first played it. At first I didn’t realize what was going on and was along with the other characters thinking she was living in a delusion but the confrontation moment was probably one of the saddest things I’ve watched in a game
She caused kriegs meat bicycle to be a single seater, thats unforgivable
Ah, I see you haven't beaten the game yet
@@b7arg what do you mean? What about that statement indicates he hasn't beaten the game?
@@b7arg What do you mean?
Kero Kero I think he means Ava got maya killed
As Kreig being my favorite Vault Hunter, and haven't played bdl3 yet, I say this hurts my meat boy more than me.
Mordecai, Brick, and Tina are all criminally underused in BL3’s story.
they did brick and mordor dirty in bl3, Mordecai should've been Lilith's successor since he's the most racional of all the vault hunters the whole game feels really off
@@DarkDan76 *Rational
And yeah I completely agree, even though Mordecai was absolutely pissed at Bloodwings death and Roland's, he didn't do anything stupid because of it
It's almost like he's a better written character
I agree, but am hoping that we get a dlc with them. That would make up for the loss in the main game.
I agree. Tina being more grown up doesn't have the same adorable psycho concept but i still would have appreciated more of all 3 of them
Yeah and the parts they are used in are relatively short
Ava dying instead of Maya would've been intensely more powerful and dark. Maya's quest for revenge and feelings of having failed Ava would've not only driven the player to finish the story more, but Lilith's sacrifice and leaving Maya in charge would've helped Maya start the road to forgiving herself. Instead Borderlands 3 ripped off the original Jason Todd. At least David Eddings dodged this subpar bullet of a game. The Godfather 3 curse continues.
You just made a better story in about one minute of typing, than gearbix did in 7 years, bravo.
hell yeah
I concur, @@ronaneverett8202. Heck, with BL2 Roland did not even need to die if the New U stations were canon like they originally were. That cutscene could of become one of BL2's defining moments of having a mega boss fight with Handsome Jack, but instead of dying he goes into Fight For Your Life mode, but still drops fantastic loot regardless. From there Jack has a literal digistructed bot army materialize around you. Lilith teleports herself and Roland back to Sanctuary. You quickly find out that you can not take on a literal 50+ bot army that appeared out of thin air five to ten seconds ago. You run back to the elevator you came from in the nick of time, go up it, but find out that Jack deactivated all of the New U stations up to Brick's area. All the while you are being harshly fired upon seemingly from all directions as you frantically run back to Brick's area. The New U stations would of made for some of the most creative writing for the series if they were canon.
smegbug2 honestly I think gearbox should re-release BL3 with your version of the story
Nope, @@Madmaxgaming130. Take Two will make this DLC in the most convoluted of ways imaginable. It will be the most expensive DLC in modern video game history too!
That moment when Lilith dies and Ava immediately wants to loot her room.
On the bright side that would make Ava the perfect vault hunter.
@@CantoniaCustoms I guess,but the message I'm getting is her thief style went over her vault hunter responsibility
I am not defending her but Tannis also wanted to loot the room but said it in a slightly more tasteful way
I mean her intro banner says "Grave robber" so that makes sense.
" you saved pandora, you killed handsome Jack "
Actually Ava, Lilith was captured and the vault hunter killed Handsome Jack.
Well that depend on who kill Handsome Jack, I want to kill Lilith in BL2 though
*Gaige killed handsome Jack
@@Haloguy-mg8wl idk man i think krieg did for a horn holder on his meat bycacle.
@@asherdrake2198* bicycle
At the end of bl2 you have the option to let lilith kill jack which is the canon Choice.
Ava to Lilith: "You killed Handsome Jack!"
Lilith during the finale of Borderlands 2
LoOk OuT tHe LaVaS riSinG
*WHEEEEEEEZE*
Axton: Come on, man!
Salvatore: This isn’t good.
Zer0: This is really bad / Our work is not our own work / This is such bullshit
Maya: Actually...
If you take too long to kill Jack Lillith does come in and Merc him but I suprised they made that canon.
@@yazidefirenze Krieg: MY LEMON SQUEEZE WAS THE ONE WHO ORDERED THE OYSTERS!
Gaige: *snort* Talk about Cutscene Incompetence."
@@powerofanime1 Your Krieg line got a good laugh out of me. Kudos.
Plot twist: Krieg blames Ava for Maya's death and kills her
I am legitmately scared that there'll be a dlc where Krieg is driven mad due to the loss of Maya and I'll have to fight him as a boss.
I would be fine with that
Yes please.
Dankest timeline
Turn Ava into a meat bicycle.
"THIS CHICK LIVED IN A FART CAVE!"
R.I.P Private Bean
It’s easy. Tiny has character development, Ava indirectly killed a crowd favorite.
...does she? Maybe there was more plot in the DLCs that I'm unaware of but the only noticeable difference IMO between BL2 Tina and BL3 Tina is that she's older and somewhat more coherent.
@@Sammie1053 play tiny tina's assault on dragon keep
@@powheadshot7766 ^this, she has massive character development during dragon keep.
@@AbominationalFailure yep
@@powheadshot7766 So give Ava a dlc.
Everyone's right, Brick shoulda been a siren.
Mia Lia
or ellie, that would’ve been badass, if they were going to choose random characters anyways i think ava is the last character that shouldn’t gotten siren powers.
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
What about Moxxi????
@@themellonman9886 That would have been pretty damn hot.
TheMellonMan
i agree with that more then who i thought before Moxxi is someone who should’ve become a siren before anybody else in bl3, she’s extremely more capable then tannis and ava.
plus she would’ve become even more badass then she is now.
that’s a definite good point dude, why didn’t moxxi become a siren?
i mean their clearly just handing out those powers to anybody if their willing to give it to ava.
The worst part of it all is how badly they did the main man Krieg. Krieg deserved a happy ending with Maya
@Grailsarvas Yo Krieg DLC would be amazing. I'd love to see Krieg's reaction to Ava
Nano tec Dude, he’d fucking turn her into a meat bicycle if he found out what she caused lol
Krieg is actually really well written
His inner conflicts with himself is leagues more interesting then Ava's shitty attitude
Max Fischer oh no, Krieg IS well written, I think he just means they did him dirty by neglecting him in BL3 and totally destroying whatever potential he had for a future with Maya.
If he isn’t stable/at peace with his inner sane voice and his outer, psychotic Krieg self in the future, I think it’s fair to say Maya’s passing means he pretty much LOST whatever chance he had at becoming a normal man again. If anything, finding out about her will actually rip Krieg apart even MORE.
Feels like they tried to pull an Ahsoka with Ava, but forgot how our favorite padawan got to where she is. They saw a rebellious youth who defied orders, but everyone still loved. However, they forgot that Ahsoka was unbearable until a couple seasons in, when she got her whole squad killed, and realized that, due to her position in a war, her actions directly affect others. After that, she learned from her mistakes, and the rest is history
Good comparison. It also helped that Ahsokas Master was Anakin, who was arguably as reckless and rebellious as her and always had that “Ok Ahsoka, normally we shouldn’t be doing this, but whatever it works” kinda attitude. It was fun and interesting to see both master and student struggle with the same flaw.
Ava is hated for 1 big reason and I'll let Zane say it.
Zane: she messed up big time when the twins showed up and didn't stay in place. Oh Maya.
Blue Hazard if they do they need to give him wayyyy more lines because in bl3 he has some great lines but its almost as if the other characters don't even talk to him they just say one or two words then they start talking about killing people again
@@burgermuncher8985 And in this aspect Pre Sequel is superior, much better dialogue between the player characters and the npcs.
I don't think borderlands 4 will have the same vulte hunters because every time a new borderlands game comes up we get new vulte hunters
@@badreedinedjellali1328 Obviously but mabye like bl2 they become the player's mentors, leaders a position above the new vault hunters.
She's a mad feckin idjit, that's why
When Maya died I really thought “ah finally, a point where Ava’s character is going to turn around. Her rebellious nature got Maya killed, she’s going to change. Ah, Character growth.” Instead Ava just kept going absolutely bonkers and never took responsibility for the death of Maya. And she got off easy for it, no character points out HER mistake. (Which would be harsh for a little pre teen but she’d still need to hear it. Especially because she keeps shifting blame to Lilith)
And it's especially the fact she's like this that someone NEEDED to call her out on it. Now she has no concept of action/consequence and doesn't accept responsibility for her actions because she doesn't have to.
Yea exactly tiny Tina had accepted Roland's death and began to show she has changed in no longer grieving but than to accept that she is now able to move on and grow up
Yeah, was hoping to see that as a quest or during the quest... she sort of made up with Lilith, but didn’t once say it was her fault. It’s Twin’s fault, but Ava didn’t help the situation.
Robot Gore She also got control of fucking sanctuary for no reason besides being a siren
I find this hard to believe that none of those characters call her out on that, I feel like Lilith or Moxxi would have if not them then maybe Ellie after the way ava shift the blame to Lilith.
I care more about Face McShooty and his backstory, than anything Ava
_IN THE FAAAAACE, SHOOOOOT ME IN THE FAAAAAACE!!!_
*dies*
THANK YOU!
RIGHT IN THE FAAAAAAAAACEEEE
Yes i woul love to have Face Mcshooty more character development
Its good to see people still remember my bro
"Arguably the best Dlc ever, Tiny Tina's Assault on Dragonkeep." I disagree strongly! It's not arguably the best! It IS the best!
Fuck those goddam dragons tho
I never completed it, those 🐉🐲
It's so good that it's getting a entire game based around it
Assault on dragon key is amazing all around
That sentence had too many syllables APOLOGISE!!
I like how the player does everything but the cutscenes are only focused on the main characters. I like to imagine that the vault hunters just go sit at some corner or staircase and eat some sandwich while the drama happens between the others.
When i played as Commando in Borderlands 2 , when a cutscene happened i imagine my character eating some snacks or sandwichs in the corner and the drinking something , like
"Hell yeah , this TV show its realy good , its looks real , *Its real* , oh no , they killed roland , sad sand moment"
"Yeah man, these sandwiches are the bomb bro. Aye yo where'd Maya go"
"Ah, ya hate to see it boyo. Maya was an interestin lass, they did er dirty."
@@KonpakuYoumu2003 it could be cannon that that is how it works.
"HEY SALVADOR, IS IT OK IF ALL THE DWORFS IN MY GAME LOOK LIKE YOU?"
A distant Salvador. "AWESOME"
They're clearly around and real people even in cut scenes and directly referenced in gameplay.
@@lolbuster01 lets make that Canon
Lilith: Crazy Earl... Sanctuary is yours. Be ready.
Crazy Earl: About time! Everyone... GET OUT!
Crazy earl: Jettisons everyone out into space
Oh god! he's getting the forks!
@@yuishishido8780 *insert heavy eating voice clip*
@@yuishishido8780 don't forget the cars
The sad thing is. Earl deserves more being the leader of the Crimson Raiders than Ava. It wouldve also been funny and not frustrating.
Just my opinion but they really should have killed her instead of Maya, her story would be so much darker. Maya's character could have been built around revenge as a failed teacher, that would be so much interesting and Lilith making her a head of CR would make sense as well. Maya really didn't deserve to go like this...
Yeah, this version of the story would make much more sense.
The death of a failed student would have been far better storytelling.
@@lL338 either way she had to go but they messed up that chance
@@guacamoleguy6592
I totally agree with you. If Ava was a fully developed character shown to have a bond with Maya as something truly akin to teacher and student who actually learned from Maya during the course of the game Maya's death could have been meaningful. But Ava doesn't grow or change, and causes the death of her mentor and a character who player's have walked in the shoes of. Ava sucks and just gets in the way.
@@lL338 and a switch of the usual trope, instead of Mentor Occupational Hazard, it's Student Educational Hazard.
"hell I would've taken claptrap as an option" claptrap already leads the crimson raiders wdym
Nope, that's lilith
No, Claptrap leads them
@@Frost-Maker pretty sure claptrap told me he's the big boss man
claptrap is the strongest character in the Borderlands universe, therefore it makes sense he's the leader
Ava caused the death of a beloved character
@jackthegamer it should be illegal to spit so many facts at once
Why did Obi Wan die for Luke. There's your answer
Bradyguy99 why did Luke randomly die in last jedi
@@A_Dennis because bad writing who doesn't care about their characters. If you're trying to say then why did Maya die it's because there can be only 7 sirens at all times. And Tyreen is a siren leech. If you were expecting her to come back and be ok then that's on you. I saw it when I saw her coming back. Although didn't see Troy being the one to take her power. Was expecting a all out battle with Tyreen who has almost all the siren powers. But ya Sirens are going to die like every game they introduce a new one. Ava probably will die in BL6 or something.
I'm a Gaige Main and maya's death still pissed me off
Short Version:
Tina's shenanigans lead to hilarious deaths of fodder bad guys... and her exes, eventually
Ava's whining lead to the death of a beloved character and was not punished for it
I'm pretty sure the death of Maya was enough punishment
@@passioninmyeyes555 yeah. for Maya's fans
She was actually rewarded for it
@@passioninmyeyes555 she was rewarded for it you utter dumbass
@@passioninmyeyes555 for who? Certainly not Ava, who just gets rewarded every time she has anything to do with a main character's death.
Me: Saved the universe. Completed every mission given to me.
Ava: Does nothing. Gets Sanctuary.
Lilith saying to Ava, Sanctuary is hers, doesn't immediately make her the boss. It's hers, not hers to command. Lilith might also have said it to motivate Ava to keep going, not to promote her to captain. People are just never able to think a bit further.
@@nightmareTomek The Borderlands Show, episode 2, around the 1:18:00 point, the writer says Lilith did hand over Sanctuary to Ava. He also implies the only consideration for this leadership role were other Sirens (for some unexplained reason), so either Tannis or Ava. www.twitch.tv/videos/508064652?collection=NzvASins1hWvTA
Just means there won't be a sequel because Sanctuary is definitely dead if Ava is leading in anything. It was obviously Mordecai that had the right mindset and leadership skills to lead the Crimson Raiders back in BL2 but the writers obviously hate Males so much they decided to not even grant more than 2 scenes per male character.
Well..a woman should be on top of things now..that's the rule nowadays ! No matter how and why...
@@MrZahsome imagine a sequel with post apocalyptic Sanctuary bc Ava fucked it over
Tina is the only character from borderlands I am thoroughly terrified of yet really want to hug -
so do I 😅🤗
Borderlands 3 in a nutshell:
Vault Hunters: “Alright Lilith, we completed that mission you tasked us with”
Lilith: “Good job, Ava!”
Vault Hunters: “Wait, what?!”
I’ve also heard the DLC for Borderlands 3 is going to be heavily Ava focused. I hope they can do damage control on her character, because I did not like what I saw from her in the base game.
Its like the devs want to give us every reason to hate the game and go back to 2
From the looks of things, DLC1 doesn't seem to have any focus on Ava, so that's a plus. Can't say anything about DLC2 onwards though
Meh, for me, borderlands is dead. The company is crap, the way they treat employees is crap, their director is crap...
God, you guys have no idea how much I wanted to shove Ava out the airlock.
One of their excuses was we did not play all of her side missions and thats why we didn't understand or see her full potential. :/
Ava: -Moans
- "YOU KILLED MAYA" after literally getting caught in a hostage situation
- gets powers cause lmao
- for some reason is the successor to lilith when Mordecai exists
- literal whingy emo child
- somehow worse then claptrap
Tina: - Has Assault on Dragon Keep.
A DLC has a better story for a character then the vanilla campaign for Ava
I mean commender Lilith has extremely good if not the best writing in a borderlands game.
@@NuclearRaven13 yeah, as to be expected since lilith is pretty much the main character of the borderlands franchise. Hell, if they wanted a borderlands character in smash bros, Lilith would be the easy choice. A side character, as much of a favorite side character as Tina is, got better writing then the "main character" of BL3
@@NuclearRaven13 too bad lillith herself is so unbearable...
@@ceriani1234 IKR i feel like Im the only on who hate Lilith sometimes. Would have been better if Maya was the main one but that will never happen now.
@@futureelement924 all the bl2 vh's should of been part of the main story, like a passing of the torch. Salvador and krieg not being present in these events is a crime, same with gaige.
Roland: dies and is mega grieved over despite being one of the least interesting character classes from BL1
Maya: Dies and is literally barely mentioned by the other characters aside from having a funeral that is literally played up as a joke.
I wouldn't say barely because when Ava is in any sort of Borderlands video. Somebody is bound to talk about Maya and Ava.
But yeah you got a point.
@@bbobbiegurl467 I think he means the NPCs and other main characters in game, after Roland died in BL2 if you go anywhere near an NPC in Sanctuary they will start talking about his death
@@bbobbiegurl467 they mean NPC reactions, not us cause we're obviously sad
I find it rich that that she says Ava shouldn't need a DLC to further the character when Tiny Tina's DLC is what made Tina incredibly lovable. She is a better character to begin with but the DLC is what made her unforgettable
A guilt ridden Ava who has to come to terms with Maya's death and learn the use of Maya's power, which she doesn't want to, as she feels unworthy, and has to train and earn her powers, would have been a great character arc for her.
But tragically we lost the cool and collected Maya and got bratty entitled Ava...
It's quite simple really, Tina is voiced by Ms. Pauling's voice actress...
And the best thing is, she ain't Anthony Birch
it's all coming together.
Yo! Miss. Pauling, do you like a bucket of chicken?
@@davidplumb2604 isnt she Birch's sister
no one likes Chloe Price though
Lilith: Ava! Sanctuary's yours!
everybody: *nobody liked that*
Bls 4 sanctuary has been destroid by the stupidity of ava because she presed the botton that said no not press and now you have to hunt down ava as she went to hida as the little cubt she is
Give it to literally anyone else. Like, the Vault Hunters?
@@fumarc4501 i would love that zane became the Captain! all the other new vault hunters are dead written and poor executed, so boring while zane is God tier character
it should be "nobody: liked that"
Blue why didn’t she give it to tannis!?!
Tiny tina: uses her trauma as a reason to stay energetic and keep everyone around her happy
Ava: uses her trauma to guilt trip others and cant control her own anger
Facts fuck ava
They're different people they handle things differently
Bruh nothing but facts!
what this guy said
@@bashamd96 but her coping mechanisms are completely understandable
Having dowloaded the Directors cut DLC, having scene that there are animatics with full on voice overs that actually show Ellie putting Ava in her place during Maya's funeral. I can safely say I hate this character now more than ever. She really is just a writers pet, someone saw themselves in Ava and felt the need to protect this character from any real criticism, reward her for doing basically nothing, and ultimately make her vital to future games.
there isn't going to be future games. BL is dead.
@@bakedturkeys2132 I mean we had to wait 7 years between 2 and 3 but 4 will happen
It's even worse than rewarding her for doing nothing. It's rewarding her for getting Maya killed.
If 4 does come out I fucking pray they get rid of their current writers.@@bakedturkeys2132
@@bakedturkeys2132well that didn't age well
Ava got angry cuz the class mod that Maya turned into wasn't for her build
Aaxoz
XD
Love a gameplay reference
Dont forget the lost characters:
Janey springs, athena, axton, that one gunzerker, Fiona and her sister aaaand some other characters the story didnt include or touch.
BL3 has one of the weakest story out of all borderlands games.
Phoenix i think it has the weakest story tbh
@@XXXX-yb9oc I enjoyed it more than BL1 tbh. BL1 just didn't really have much to it. BL3 has a lot of problems, but at least we got stuff like Balex in the story which is great
Even Battle for Neighborville get better humor.
Sergio Mendoza cool
sad mah boi axton didnt make it in bl3's campaign. hope axton gets in one of the dlcs
I would've taken Crazy Earl as my commander than Ava
I would've taken STEVE as my commander over Ava
Would have claptraps little alien friend as commander instead
Tiny Tina. Hands down.
Crazy Earl for LIFE!
Death to mountains!
Heavy Metal Collector Loader bot #1340
The moment that sold me on Tina “You can’t just pretend Roland isn’t dead” “I KNOW! I know… but this is my story…”
It showed that for all the smiles and bunnies and glitter, she knows how horrible her life is and just wants to be ok, to act like it’s fine… it’s heart wrenchingly real. At the same time, she also tries to move forward and improve in some ways, heck at the funeral of Roland she accepts his death and faces it when she had been avoiding it the entire dlc….
The moment that solidified my hate for Ava was the death of Maya… she disobeyed repeatedly, got Maya killed, blamed Lilith when Lilith was the one who was trying to prevent any unnecessary deaths, and took no responsibility…. If she had taken responsibility and felt guilt for Maya’s death and tried to improve after that moment I’d have loved her tbh.
Ava seems to be the byproduct of a new push in writing and character design. You can see this in a lot of media; games, movies, and comics alike, where there's one protagonist, usually female, who is heralded as beyond scrutiny in that world, who fails upwards at every pass, and seems to exist only because the writers themselves love the character or want to use that character to 'correct' other characters in the series. This new push is done by amateur writers who have near sighted ideals, feel they have the right to 'correct' legacy IPs, and put a lot of focus on forced diversity and similar ideals. The people writing these characters don't generally know how to write a good character and see no reason to try.
@@vallahdsacretor4839pickles story> ava
@@vallahdsacretor4839 It's not even new, It's been going on for awhile. Half of it is politically motivated, as you said. The other half is ego-motivated. Writers who get handed the reins to major franchises often seem to get massively bloated senses of self-worth, especially if they're inexperienced, and then promptly go on an ego trip.
This kind of butchering doesn't even apply to new characters, it has been done to legacy characters as well. A prime example of this was Sylvanas Windrunner in Warcraft. She went from being one of the most beloved characters in the franchise to being absolutely depised because the writing team got high on their own farts and made the entire world narrative revolve around her for half a decade. They convinced themselves they were writing a masterwork of grey morality and everyone was going to fall in love with the character as much as they had.
And then in the end, she remained so hated that if she ever shows up again in the franchise there would be a not impossible potential for some nutcases to go firebomb Blizzard HQ in retaliation, with the sheer depths of hatred that she has inspired. Nevertheless, the team remained completely HELLBENT on believing that all the "haters" were just being loud and obnoxious and everyone was going to love their precious and perfect Sylvanas at the end, right up until the end actually occurred, and they were "blindsided" with the fact that nobody did.
@@Exotacon top of all that they thought players would be happy to participate in a ~13 minute boss fight
Also Tina is a character that fits within the borderlands series. She shows it in a way by saying funny things that make her memorable while Ava is just a girl who we don't care about
Ava has no memorable moments. She just complains the entire time and blames people for things they had nothing to do with.
The Lost One She has one memorable moment, the moment that players found out the Jericho could do friendly fire and blasted her ass to hell and back.
"funny"
“I would’ve taken claptrap as a option”
That’s a roast that could melt fire
I love claptrap though
@Jebrone Love Kitten
I do to
Everyone in the game doesn’t though
That roast makes handsome jack shut up
Claptrap:
OK EVERYONE! I AM THE COMMANDER OF SANCTUARY! So... what do I do for this job?
Sanctuary would probably break down in less than a day, but at least it would be in the hands of a character that would be tolerated.
The moment when Ava blamed Lilith for Maya's death and Lilith just accepted it, cementing Ava as a simple Mary Sue, was really the moment the writing in the game was irredeemable.
I hope krieg comes back, slices her up and turns her into a meat bicycle and we get to ride it as a trophy.
It could've been worse. She could've been tortured by the Calypsos and then after we rescue her she would take a shower to instantly heal her wounds and pretend like nothing of that happened, like a certain purple dragon-thing.
did you interact with Lilith after that scene again? Lilith explains that Ava blames herself for Mayas Death and projects her pain outwards on others... It's a thing i've seen teenagers do quite often.
Oh and if Krieg comes back he most likely will become one of Avas Guardians as she is the protege of his beloved Maya and as seen in the death scene Maya put her protection over her own live, she is kinda like her adopted child making her protect worthy for him too.
That feeling hit me on promethea when you're going through the underground train area and the calypsos are just going on and on about, well, y'know.
Ava isn't completely wrong. Lilith could have warned Maya about Troy's and Tyreen's ability to syphon power from living things.
The whole backstory thing really is a slap in the face. Thing is, it's not just a matter of presentation and the way it was presented, it's also a matter of narrative cause and effect. Tina's loss of her parents pretty well explains her current state, physical and mental. Ava's hardened orphan survivor backstory doesn't exactly explain how she learned to be entitled and mouth off to threats that were obviously above her station. You'd think she was smarter than that. The only conclusion is that Maya must have been a really, really awful teacher and guardian in the interim, but then I'm just imagining writing that isn't there to try and explain their nonsense.
Ava was a young teenager when she was orphaned. Let's assume she was 13, the absolute youngest you can be and still be considered a teenager.
Two and a half years later she encounters maya. She's either 15 or 16, depending on if she was closer to her 13th or 14th birthday.
She's 18 in BL3, which takes place 7 years after BL2.
She had, at most, two and a half years of training from Maya.
Excluding the weird deus ex machina of Maya somehow KNOWING Ava would inherit her siren powers, she spent most of that time having Ava meditate and clean, trying to teach Ava discipline (something Ava failed to learn).
Tina lost her birth parents as a child in a hyperion facility, and it deeply scarred her psyche to the point of developing an obsession with explosives. And when Roland died, it broke her even further, the only way for her to recover was to retreat into a fantasy world where everything went as planned.
Both of them are orphans who lost a guiding teacher and parental figure. The difference is that, whilst both Roland and Maya are killed by the antagonist, only Tina seems to really acknowledge that Roland died, that she's basically alone now.
Ava's anger at Lilith is skipping an entire stage of grief. New-U and fast travel are canon to the borderlands games, so Ava's immediate response should, in my opinion, have been to park at the fast travel station on Sanctuary until someone physically moved her.
And then one of the BL2 vault hunters appears. Not Maya, one of the others. Could be any of them, though ideally it'd be either Salvador or Krieg.
If it's Salvador, he reads her the riot act, and tells her in detail how Maya's death is HER fault.
If it's Krieg, they'd have to physically hold him back to stop him going on a psycho rampage. Maya was the one thing holding his mind together, and with her gone, well, there's nothing more dangerous than someone with nothing left to lose
@@sev1120nevermind the fact Tina “technically” killed her parents
@@sev1120 Sorry, but you're wrong about New-U being canon to the game. The writer of BL2 has come out and personally said that they aren't canon. So much of Borderlands would not make sense if they were. Jack and Angel wouldn't have died in the second game, none of the vault hunters would have been allowed to use them since he wanted them dead and Roland likely wouldn't have died. New-U stations are there for gameplay balancing sake only, hence why in Tiny Tina's Assault on the Dragon Keep and in Borderlands TPS, they have quotes literally saying "We're not canon."
@@VinylDashMusic one of the literal first things said in BL1 is telling you about New-U stations, and how they work.
Granted, it may have been changed later, but I was running under the assumption that exposition in the first 5 minutes of gameplay is considered canon
hold up, how did that happen? I must've missed something@@taylorsmith9503
My reason for hating Ava? She assumed control over Sanctuary after being introduced just earlier, and has literally done nothing to have deserved the position. She just appeared and now we have to listen to her.
when i heard that i couldnt believe it. The VH does literally everything, and apparently is just chopped liver. a skag would make a better captain of the ship. or Tannis' former minecart lover.
She was given control because she sparked a fire in Lilith that had died. Maya could have explained to Ava that she'd inherit her powers, but because Maya's powers were abused as a child she was afraid of telling Ava too soon she'd inherit the powers.
@@Mektah that does not change the fact that a rock would not have made a better choice.
I hate Ava due to the fact that she killed Maya in that situation, blames Lilith for it, states that Lilith killed Handsome Jack, not us! and the fact she gets siren powers in the end when she doesn't deserve them.
lazyartist Last I hate how the VH is completely ignored or pushed into portals in literally every cutscene and even and plays zero part in anything outside direct gameplay
My fav "New-U" line was "If you die in Tina's imagination, you die for real." Gave me all the chills and feels.
Hey, you! You are finally awake...
Hyperion, we're not the bad guys In this one
"Ava, Sanctuary is yours now" was hands-down the most infuriating moment of the whole game.
Whenever Vaughn speaks and pretty much everything after Maya’s death was really poorly written. Like the writers just went out and decided to do some crack before they finished writing the story and dialogue.
Either that or when they play this girl is on fire right afterwards. I puked in my mouth a little
@@lowlandnobleman6746 I thought I was the only one that hated Vaughn.
Lilith was a incompetent leader too ,I guess she saw alot of herself in ava and passed the torch.
@@lowlandnobleman6746 bro there's nothing wrong with smoking crack and playing borderlands
I still say that Tina screaming "I KNOW! but its my story." Is the single best moment in the entire series.
It's a shame they removed the part of the quest where you tell people about Roland's death. The line she has is so sad for saying so little.
Ava isnt even one of the worst main character, shes the worst Character in the series.
Jack Ball agreed, especially since she’s shoved down our throat as the new lead
Pajamapants Jack, what makes it even worse is that the Vault Hunters that we are playing as are almost completely written out of the story and Ava is the one that’s being pushed as if she’s the main protagonist.
You forgot about Pickle. I want to scrape my head against a rock everytime he speaks.
@@FlipZFox least pickle is only there for one act.
Oisin Lynch Aye, fair enough.
"we have to run towards the fire" Last time Lilith ran towards the fire without planning or thinking Roland got killed and she got captured.
I dont think lilith got roland killed. Jack killed rolland, could hv happened if lilith wasnt there too, lilith didnt really cause it
@@xsomili5501 I completely agree, Lilith being there just made it easier for Jack but Roland just wasn't paying attention. Ava antagonized the Calypso's and indirectly got Maya killed
@@ruined_maze1370 No, if Lilith wasn't there for Jack to use Jack never would have dared to show up at that point in time and kill Roland, you know why? Because there were 4 fucking vault hunters standing right there.
@@Killer36661 I understand that. But when have the vault hunters actually done something in a cutscenes other than the opening one?
@@ruined_maze1370 Still, the only reason Jack dared to show up then was that he knew he could control Lilith and turn her against the vault hunters.
Tina was never the cause of a character's death.
Ava basically caused Maya's death by *not staying in/on Sanctuary.*
That’s Bc u are with Tina for like a single quest and she isn’t even actively there on that quest she just tells u where to go and what to do and then u go on with your life
@@connorstetts859 That doesn't matter the point is the Tina never got anyone killed because she more or less listened to those that knew better
@@connorstetts859 Tina has multiple questlines across the main game and dlcs including an entire dlc that is basically JUST tiny Tina character growth.
She has more screen time then Ava, but that isn't the issue with Ava. It's her behaving in a way that players find reprehensible and the game doing it's very best to tell you she is right or justified in her behavior. The only time the game corrects any of Ava's shitty behavior is when Tannis tells he she shouldn't be so mad at Lilith after mayas death.
This does is so offbase with everyone who played it because we just watched Ava get Maya killed as a direct result of her disobedience inexperience and carelessness
@@connorstetts859 Ava was SPECIFICALLY told to STAY ON SANCTUARY by Maya, the only reason Maya died was because Ava not only broke Maya's rule, she ALSO antagonized the calypso's when they were LITERALLY GOING TO LEAVE WITHOUT KILLING ANYONE.
@@reedschadegg9023 And because player's character simply disappeared from the cutscene.
Ava feels like all the negative ageist stereotypes for teenagers were rolled up into a single character. As a late teen myself she strikes a special chord of annoyance for me. No teens actually act like that, and if they do, it's right to the bottom of whatever social hierarchy they find themselves in.
You actually just used the word "ageist"
@@humanbeans4498 didn't believe it was a word until I heard it either. Then I heard it again in Bojack Horseman so it's apparently a decently wide reaching term, accurate and fitting too.
@@humanbeans4498 😅 the term is used relatively often, but normally when talking about the elderly
@@humanbeans4498 And? It describes what's happening. What about it?
@@addison_v_ertisement1678 It isn't, is the thing. First of all, ageism is barely a thing at all. Most people who complain about "ageism" are young people who don't want to accept the reality that people with more experience than them might actually understand the nuance of a situation or issue better than they do. Most actual genuine so-called "ageism" is shit like anti-boomer sentiment where idiotic younger people presume that older people are wrong solely on the basis that they're older. Yes, there are idiots who believe that young people are always wrong on the basis of being young, but they're an EXTREME rarity, where as the opposite is common enough that things like "OK Boomer" have become actual widespread memes in years past.
But that's beside the point, because Ava's problems have nothing to do with "ageism". The narrative hook of a student causing the death of their mentor is a tale as old as storytelling. The thing is, the point of it is typically to make the student character in question recognize that the reason that their mentor's death occurred was due to their own inexperience, or some other character flaw such as disobedience towards those who are in authority over them. And then, from that point on it becomes a focal point that allows them to grow over time and become a better person. That tragedy becomes an experience that they allow to better themselves.
Ava's got the first half and not the second half. She causes the death of her mentor directly due to her lack of obedience and her unfounded insistence that she is capable of notably contributing despite a complete lack of experience. But instead of reflecting on what that says about her and how she needs to improve as a person, she just passes the blame onto someone else. She never improves, she never grows, she just shunts the impetus onto someone completely innocent and the rancid storytelling /backs her up/, which is what truly turns her from just a poorly written character to a genuinely despicable one.
Tina's reaction to and processing of Roland's death was one of the most gutwrenchting things I've ever encountered in a video game, and that wasn't even the point of the dlc; it was just an aside. The best part about Tina is that you *want* to learn more about her, because you only interact with her in short bursts, and that gets you to pay attention to those little bits like her denialism and mask of insanity.
If Tina didn't act like a psycho, she could literally be held as a foremost expert in explosives and pyrotechnics.
She has more experience with explosives than I the guys at Hyperion who make them.
okay boomer
@@mrcheekylean3886 k
Wait but the whole point of dragonkeep was Tina going through the stages of greif.
I like you get to visit the monument in that cutscene in bl3
To undo Ava’s character, they have to make her the villain in the 4th. She gets power hungry with sanctuary and her siren powers grow stronger.
It’ll be more enjoyable that way
plot: she sends Sanctuary into chaos and ruin, as her power sends her into a massive power-mad state. could be cool if we got the BL3 hunters again (they could be actually used in a meaningful way, instead of losing all hope of being recognized in the story) as they fight their way through the power. obviously, she thinks she can use a Vault to absorb more power, but this leaves her weak. the hunters kill the big ol’ monster, and when Ava reawakens, she is enraged to see the kill stolen. she attacks, still weak, and gets herself crippled because of the Hunters. she fuckin’ DIES
N then we get to kill her? Yayyy
Thats about the only way id buy Borderlands 4 at this point.
No.
@Emet-Selch Basically.
I've seen self inserts that were better than Ava.
Well there's one thing we all know for sure about Ava...
Krieg is gonna murder her when he finds out what happened. And we're ok with that.
I'm more disappointedly resigned than violently opposed to Ava, but what if Ava IS quickly killed by Krieg or somebody, averting prophetic visions from the siren gang? Now they have to worry about not knowing what's coming, avoiding boring prophecy plotlines in the future. Suddenly it's cool again.
@@seanhennessy3968 It would make the story a whole lot better that's for sure. Besides we all know Krieg isn't gonna let some spoiled brat stay alive after everything she's ruined. And Gearbox isn't gonna milk anything out of Ava since she's hated by almost the entire fanbase. So unless they want to be backlashed like a Star Wars Battlefront Game her death is pretty much guaranteed.
What’s scares me the most is the possibility they’ll make Krieg her protector ☹️
@@tekkena.seccin3935 They won't. It wouldn't make sense for Krieg to do something like that. Especially with someone who got his girlfriend killed. If anything Krieg would be hunting her down so he could jam a buzzaxe in her skull.
IAM SINISTAR I know but with how the writing was for the main game it leaves me concerned
I remember they came out with a storyboard of a funeral for Maya where they give her the send off she deserved. In it Ava and Lilith have a heart to heart where Ava admits it was her fault that Maya died and that Lilith never caused anyone to die, which Lilith says that she did lose someone she cared about from her actions.
Sadly the whole thing was scrapped and we got instead Ava being a horrible brat and Lilith essentially saying “she knew it was a dangerous life, back to stations everyone.”
Just spit on such a loved character
Because Tina didn't get everyone's favorite character killed then blamed our other favorite character while throwing a fit.
Lilith blamed Athena for roland’s death. Lilith was the reason why Roland died. She’s no better than Ava
@@miumiu5206 what are you talking about? She never blamed Athena. She blamed Jack the one that killed him and then blamed herself and then she developed as a character and moved past it like she had a whole arc to get over it and evolve as a leader in the DLC before BL3
Fiinsk Ok she blamed Athena but it was atleast a good story arc unlike avas shitstory
@@mad0813 In the Pre-Sequel. Lilith blames Athena because she helped Jack rise to power.
People actually like Lilith?
Ava is very Mary Sue-ish.
“She’s got blue hair and she-she gets the powers of maya and everyone likes her and she’s got a sad backstory and she becomes the leader of the good guys, plz donut stale”
Well ain't that a huge reason for borderlands fans to hate Ava. She seems hateable
But you also have blue hair...
@@simonj6801 the profile pic is their drawing of Sydney from payday 2
How does having blue hair add to her being a Mary Sue?
@@eviesheher4494 generic emos have blue hair which are generally mary sues in terrible fanfiction
If Krieg's gonna come back, he's probably the best person to set Aya straight.
*iF wrIten CoRREctlY*
*if they make us kill Krieg I swear to god-*
@@Wampao *CALLING IT NOW, WE WILL*
@@floofbirb4436 not before he kills ava or so I hope.
He would probably throw a damn buzzsaw at her and hope for the best
Welp, we got Krieg back and Ava got left out of his arc entirely.
I think everyone at Gearbox realized how much Ava was hated. Wasn't she supposed to be the core focus of most dlcs?
I find the part where Ava miraculously knows how to use her powers also applies in part to the twins. I mean, Lilith and Maya were both experienced vault hunters that went through a lot of fight, but they got owned without even a scratch on their opponents. I can accept Maya (element of surprise) but not Lilith.
Yep !
Tbf when ISN'T lilith getting wrecked?
True. Lilith has been a Vault Hunter for a decade at this point. You'd think she'd be prepared for a surprise attack from someone trying to take the pandoran vault key.
even Tannis had to experiment in abandoned town for that. Ava? She received power and used it right away.
zer0: does nothing significant, minor character
axton: gone
krieg: gone
salvador: gone
gaige: appears in a dlc but gone in the base game
maya: fucking dies pathetically before she can be realized as a proper character
ava's a good replacement for all ur beloved characters, amirite guys?
No
@@MCB4410 it joke
There are magazines and skins that imply that Axton is either a nude model or pornstar now.
@@wolfe204 jfc
The next dlc is supposedly meant to be about Krieg though I doubt it'll be anything spectacular just a couple of missions with him then introduce to another empty shell of a character.
Poor claptrap, he can't even be the most hated character anymore.
P.A R.C when was he ever hated?
@@arcasic8160 well at least in-game
P.A R.C ??
[Jackies Squirrel] the characters hate him. Well... most of them.
@@ragnerschwarzmane3412 handsome jack super hated him.
Here's what I want to know: whose idea _was_ Ava? Specifically, who do I _blame_ for this?
AlgaeNymph I’m for it #RewriteAva #RereleaseTheGame
Try Randy Pitchford since he is the one in charge.
@@danniton9831 i would but he blocked me after i called someone idiot because he insulted people who rejected the Epic Store. :o
You know, it feels like they tried making Tiny tina again with Ava, with her being an orphan and losing her mentor, but failed miserably, Tina is actually sad when Roland dies and doesn't blame anyone but Jack, we actually learn things about her and her character through echo logs and her dlc. Ava is just chasing a shadow
Ava feels like she is entitled everything for no reason
Tina actually worked for what she has and also her parents where murdered and we feel for her
Ava makes me wanna send her out the airlock ....
Commandah, throw the brat out of de airlock.
@@mrcopycat2355 Nice ME3 reference 👍
Yeah, i feel ava needs a proper ass whoopin
if i was with Ava in her parents death, i would dance cuz they have done a terrible job to educate a child
You neglected to say without a spacesuit.
Does anyone ever recall Tina ONCE whining about this or that not being fair? Tina let her actions speak for her and they were GOLDEN.
I mean, she did complain about stuff before blowing them up. Which only reinforces her character.
And that one time she complained about the cookies being raisins
That's the difference really, you never hear Tina complain, people don't like seeing reality which is most people are whiny bitches, just like Ava.
So does that mean, because Ava is whining it's bad writing? Because in reality people never whine?
Seriously?
@@nightmareTomek do you like people who whine?
When even Shooty McFace has more value to the story than Ava, that's saying something.
Silver Nightbane Face McShooty lol
Now that's a guy with some potentially good lore
@@MuffinCapBackBlue His repeated headshot wounds has given him amnesia, so he keeps forgetting to cross "Get shot in the face" off his bucket list.
Savage, but true.
She could have been humbled by Maya's death, or inspired by the people work who actually did work in Sanctuary (and mature) - instead, her head grows even bigger.
Funny its literally bigger than everyone else, i know i noticed it while emptying my mag at her while she's talking.
Ava be like: "noooo u can't read my secret diary"
and Tina be like: "hahahaha pizza go boom"
Wacky woohoo pizza boomer
Pizza time.
"KA-BOOOOOOOOOOM!"
The Demoman.
All she'll ve remembered as is the fart cave girl that got Maya killed.
@@Demo_The_Mann featuring
Dead Weight
The drizzle that is not really coming near you
Tomboy tech girl
Don't forget the badongkadongs
Pickle: I’m the most hated borderlands character
Ava: hold my diary
I don't get why people hated pickle so much. At least he felt like a genuine character. I liked how he always sounded excited about what was going on, and wasn't trying to layer on some cringey ghetto talk like Tina.
@@ronchum5178 I can appreciate Pickle's character, but I can only take so much of him. Plus I hated all of his quests and only liked a couple of the rewards (that ghost buster laser and that mouthy shotgun).
@@IrrelevantOaf He was good in the main quest though. The side quests did get tedious. Plus his echo logs in the claptrap DLC were genuinely more heartbreakingt than the entire Dragon's keep DLC.
Is her diary maya?
i honestly dont think i ever came across Pickle in my playthrough
Moral of the story:
When writing a story for ANYTHING, if the hero has to have a sidekick, make sure they would be more like a proper Robin instead of a god-damn Scrappy Doo.
Even then, Scrappy Doo was far better. It's sad to know he got gunned down by a rival drug cartel
Hahaha this is great
Woah dude! Don't insult Scrappy Doo !
When I played through Ava's sidequest, I was entirely sympathetic towards her. Not only did she have a terrible childhood, having her parents killed and living in the streets eating garbage to survive, now there's this asshole soldier finding enjoyment in making fun of an orphan and broadcasting her diary to the entire planet. I really felt sorry for her during that sidequest, especially because her voice actress nailed Ava's emotions and seemed to be on the verge of crying the more the asshole read her diary.
But then the game stopped characterizing her all of a sudden! After you get the guy, she just brushes it off and goes back to status quo! And then blames Lilith for Maya's death when it was her own fault for not being in Sanctuary!
Seriously, Ava should have had another sidequest immediately after that one where she runs away and Maya asks you track her down, so they can all talk about her past and help her move forward! That would have made Ava far better of a character than what she ended up being!
The side quest was a huge missed opportunity to show that she was probably more than a rebellious and entitled brat. Finally we as players were opening up to her and could understand why she was upset. Then she could have evolved a little bit, then after Maya's death, she would be in grief and self hating, but the awful writing decided that she should remain a freaking one dimensional brat who constantly blames others for her actions!!
The sad thing is there are 2 scrapped cut scenes that correct Ava's lack of character growth. The first was a different post-Maya death on Sactuary, where Ava is mostly silent and traumatized while Lillith takes the lead in the scene. The other scene was cut completely and it's a travesty. They had planned on doing a cut scene for Maya's funeral. A good chunck of the cut scene is Ava and Lillith sitting on a ledge looking over the funeral and genuinely having a heart to heart. It completely recontextualizes her actions after from "Everyone else is the problem not me." stance she seems to have in the game, to "I fucked up royally and if I don't do better and pitch in, we're all fucked because of it."
@@richardmazkin9994 Oh yeah, I remember hearing about that. I guess the reason they scrapped it is because of the current trend in character Western writing, where main female lead can never be wrong or question her methods.
And let's be real here, Ava is supposed to be the main character aside from the Vault Hunter, she's the one that gets trained by the Siren and has to reclaim her power after the guy that killed her mentor dies while everyone else opens the path for her to fulfil her destiny.
The real reason is Tiny Tina felt like a little sister and Ava is like the human version of when Hot Rod got Optimus Prime killed and somehow gets the matrix of leadership.
But hot rod was good and regained Cybertron and kicked galvatron's ass and advance the story but I get what you mean
I mean as least Hot Rod had a redemption arc.
Ava ain't hotrod. The only way she's getting redeemed is if we play as her.
Bumblebee should've gotten the matrix. He was Prime's bro from another spark.
This
i feel like they tried too hard to model the Calypso twins around Handsome Jackes cold and heartless humor....you cain't capture lighting in a bottle twice.
@Weeblackie *hot silly string
Handsome jack is the kind of guy you Love but also Hate. like he is funny, but you also want to shoot him in the face because...well he is trying to kill you, and taunts you, but he taunts you in a way that makes you happy to finally face him. with the twins i just wanted to shoot them. i didnt want to hear more about them, i didnt want to do anything but shoot them in the face.
@@The8thblock agreed
@@The8thblock It's the sociopath charisma he has. He's a lot like Tyler Durden from the Fight Club movie.
Both are decently smart, charming, and cool. All of that mixed together with some delusions of grandeur, or just flat out craziness, makes the concoction that has created some of the most likable asshole heroes and villains in fiction
I wish it wasn't so obvious the writers were trying to model the twins after Handsome Jack. They knew that everybody loved Jack, so they just wanted Jack again but with some twist. The twist being there's two of them and they have space magic
Anyone remember TK Baha? Ofcourse you do. As small a character as he was, he's still a better character than Ava too.
He's so great. Everytime I see him I just wanna run up and talk to him.
hey, he was ok!
TK Baja was the man, man. I'm glad he had a small story addition in BL2, help him get a bit of redemption.
Him not being in BL3 is not good.
@@56bturn i dont think he would make much of a difference
The scene in Borderlands 2 where Tina detonates the explosive early is an excellent example of character development and story progression.
“10... 9...” BOOM!!! “I got bored.”
I felt it was one of the most perfectly balanced moments in the series.
Strange, when I stopped playing BL3 my brain seemed to have completely erased Ava from my memory.
Same
People usually do that when they experience trauma
@@josh___something fr cuz I forgot she was even in the game
The peek of brain functionality imo
Tbh I actually liked Ava, because I thought she’d develop and grow as a character, until Maya got killed and I realised that Ava really was a one trick pony whose only emotion was teenager angst
She's introduced well enough but everything after is... meh at best and everyone knows the worst.
Honestly we were so excited about Maya having an apprentice and then the game came out.
Isn't that because that's her character?
As a Maya main in Borderlands 2, the execution of her death fills me with UNYIELDING RAGE!!! They really, _really,_ *_REALLY_* did my girl dirty!
Hell as a Mordecai main from 1 I’ve still never forgiven Jack for what he did to Bloodwing. But it worked. Maya’s death is a straight up insult. Pure and simple.
yep i was like you know ava sucks, but man maya looks good, then boom ava gets maya killed. i took a break from borderlands 3 for a few weeks. every time i tried to play for the next month i was to mad to play.
@@ichigokage Bloodwing was cruel.
But that was truly an elaborate evil plan that added to Jack's Evil character, to our hate that we have towards him and caused a very big impact in Mordecai and us players.
Maya's death was so stupid, it was an insult to the fans and simply bad writing. And Ava is there to put salt on the injury.
most of the twins success was bs asspulls tbf, lilith straight up forgetting she's in the middle of a fight to the death, maya grabbing troy with her hands when she could use her powers, the twins getting instant full mastery of any power they get...
WHAT, they killed my girl!!!!!!
(was also a maya main but haven’t played 3)
I actually felt bad for Tina like her 3rd quest in Boderlands 2 for her tea party, the raider was saying how her family was killed and how she watched but Tina continued to torture him.
It wasn’t just some tea party to have bc of being alone or anything, it was to get revenge on one of the people who killed her family.
Lilith: "Ava, Sanctuary is yours."
Player: "But... um..."
Gearbox: "Here's new DLC! Save the universe!"
Player: "Oh, I heard Ava's running things now. She can handle it without me."
Yeah she gets more rewards than we do.
Wparker6804 honestly I’d give it to claptrap instead of ava
Well, like Aurelia said, a Vault Hunter’s loyalty is always for sale. Doesn’t have to be to the highest bidder. Any bidder will do
Matthew Turner They say that, but the message they convey is that the players are different than “other” vault hunters (as evidenced by them turning down Jack/Aurelia/Tyreen’s offers). If they had “given” Sanctuary to the Vault Hunters, at least that would give something interesting to work with in BL4 (the 4 current VH act as a council, and the player plays new heroes). Guess the impulsive child, that only wants to run around looting, is running the show now.
Player: "Oh, I heard Ava's running things now. She can handle it without me." = you're not gonna play the game or what?
My biggest problem is she does nothing but bad for everyone but she is the one to get praised and rewarded
I don't even call her Ava... I call her Rey.
@@tranz2deep yes
Meanwhile you the player who literally did everything just sitting there...
yep the end it's like oh and ava you get sanctuary, like wait a fucking second. what about ellie, or moxxi, or even tanis. no you give sanctuary to the teenager that got maya killed. and contributed like nothing to the story.
Tina: Actually deep and tragic. Backstory told as immersive experience without her reaction since we can't exactly do anything about it anyway, and bringing it up would just cause more harm.
Ava: Pathetic and badly written. Backstory told as a joke with her pathetically trying to cover it up to keep her pathetic tough girl act together. I had fun with Tina, and ocationally messed with Claptrap, but after the Rampager boss-fight, I had a bigger murder-boner for Ava and Troy than I did Tyreen.
Tyreen just falls flat in the plot. Ava's a character I hate, but has all the necessary ingredients for character development, and imho, Troy may have killed my favourite Vault Hunter pre-BL3, but he also had a lot of potential for an alternative rival, *especially* when you look at some of the sidequests, backstory of Troy and Tyreen and even the BOSS FIGHT with Troy.
Both of them are HUGE wasted potential. Ava's just a lot more obvious with that wasted potential, and is crammed down your throat more.
Also Ava: Has THE MOST PUNCHABLE FACE!
I liked troy i feel the story would of been better if tyreen was killed by troy for being stepped on and called a leach for his entire life and have troy tge destroyer with a small mechanical arm it would of been funny
@@daftmi9hty327 yup they pretty much waste his potential. The final boss should be DesTROYer not Tyreen the DeSTroYer (really miss their opportunity there)
@@Jfrost9101 Yeah I really liked the part where Troy was killing Tyreen for more power. I was like "Woah this is an interesting plot twist... Now the story gets good." but nope. They just kinda ignored that and finished the original plot.
The worst part is that there is a deleted scene of ava and lilith talking about maya's death that would've helped her character..
I honestly don't think it was a 'deleted scene'. I think even that's giving the writers too much credit. It was put in as part of one of the last dlcs of the game well over a year after launch. Plenty of time to make the scene and go 'iT wAs ToTaLlY dElEtEd ScEnE yOu GuYs'
Speaking of missing characters...... WHERE IS MY MAN MR TORGUE
he is in one of the round survival side mission things
TORGUE IS F*CKING EVERYWHEREEEEE
I need another Torgue DLC STAT.
Hopefully hes working out how to make exploding lazers again
He's probably busy having someone try to blow up the ocean again or something, but yeah, we need more Torgue (and please don't have Torgue be one of the future screw up companies like Dahl, Atlas, Hyperion...)
“NOBODY TAKES MUSHY SNUGGLEBITES BADONKADONK AND LIVES!!!!” -Tina
Bandits: “WHO THE HELL IS MUSHY SNUGGLE BITES!?!?”
Correction, the quote is:
Tina: "NOBODY TAKES MUSHY SNUGGLEBITES' BADONKADONK AND LIVES!"
Bandit: "WHO THE HELL IS MUSHY SNUGGLEBITES?"
Link Thank you I was off a bit 🤣🤣🤣
Meanwhile Ava just slags off a gate...
Ava caused the death of Krieg's pretty lady/only person who inspired him to try and become sane.
I swear if they make Krieg a boss or something because he goes insane cause he finds out that Ava killed Maya (basically) and attacks Ava on sight i will be very sad
@@russyvuss2893 plot twist, they make you team up with Krieg to kill Ava and Mordecai becomes leader
when you play through a game ten times over, you begin to notice small things about the narrative. inflection. motives. design choices.
I've completed 3 four times so far, and all I've noticed is how much I detest every character in the game. (cept for Traunt, I love that prick) Troy and Tyreen are terrible villains. Tyreen specifically is the worst. Her taunts to the player are more of an annoyance than anything. even by my tenth playthrough I never got tired of hearing Jack or any of the bandit bosses taunting me over the echo... with Tyreen I was getting tired of hearing her voice by the second playthrough.
She's just not good. At some point in the story it's quite obvious that there was a change in writers, if everything that happened on Eden-6 is any indication. It seemed like they were setting up Troy to kill his sister and become the main villain, which I would have actually liked. But no, he just remains a weak secondary antagonist.
With the twins, I think that they had potential, but despite how massive the game is, they still got too little space, too little nuance. Like you say, the part where Troy actually gets powers of his own and starts rebelling a bit against Tyreen looks like a start of something fun. Yet it kinda just...fizzles out.
@@Antis14CZ exactly my thoughts! Glad to see others are in agreement
The saddest part, I arguably can't even consider them the worst Borderlands antagonists, that dishonour goes to Commandant Steele from Borderlands 1. Even though they were poorly executed, and they were full of wasted potential, at least the twins were memorable for all the wrong reasons. Steele on the other hand, despite being the main antagonist of Borderlands 1, was so forgettable that even Borderlands 2 forgot she existed, and that game remembered General Knoxx, who's a way better antagonist.
Hate to tell you but they had the same writers the whole way through. They just sucked.
@@cleanerben9636 Yeah. The truth is that the previous games were made before woke-ism destroyed the industry. BL3 sucking so bad is just one of the symptoms.
When I recommended BL3 to people, I feel like I have to include the caveat that the writing sucks.
That's how I put it. Best gameplay in the series, mute the story. For your own enjoyment of the game.
come for the gameplay, stay for the gameplay. All i end up doing when i pop on the game is either discord call with friends or a podcast everytime cause the story genuinely never got interesting and worth hearing a second time
Only good bits of story exist in the DLC. Which is kinda sad because they should have nailed it the first time.
I don't recommend BL3 i recommend BL2, because of her and also Sir Hammerlock is still a real man in that part :-D
@@boxtank5288 It's like that and Weinright and Hammerlock are well written ignoring how Hammerlock acts towards his sister cause they flipped her personality from wanting to distance herself from her brother realizing she fucked up being the worst to him to magically she is now super mega awful person who wants to keep fucking with him
Ava has little character, gets Maya killed, spends the whole time whining, has literally no experience in combat, and completely backseats the players achievements and becomes way more important in the story than she should be.
ava: gets character killed and blames other people
tina: cute
I get the feeling Ava would be one of the playable characters in the next borderlands
Hopefully she doesn't appear at all, but if she does, then I actually would prefer she be a playable character. That way, if I don't play her, she doesn't exist . . .
@@drchicken2477 Since we still have the Great War, I'm guessing they will have one game with all the old Vault Hunters/ Vault Hunters with similar abilities to Those who are dead as the climactic ending to Borderlands.
Either Way Ava is coming back, lets just hope they realize their mistake with her and actually try to make her a character.
@@smuglord5057 yeah every one will come back
I really hoped that Tina would be playable in 3. Kind of related: I hoped the roster would be entirely old npcs, like Tina, Marcus, Moxxi, Zed, Ellie, etc. But I suppose that's not really Borderlands' MO. Oh well.
@@kindredtoast3439 that doesn’t allow for very much of a new plot development, it’s just choosing people you already know, it’d be like just having a super long dlc with some weird mod on to gain different abilities
Another amateur Ava's story arc rewrite:
After blaming everyone but herself, Ava finally realizes that Maya's death was partially/entirely her fault, she then decides to go back to Athenas and study.
She doesn't play a major role in the story until Lillith asks her to attack the cathedral of the twin gods with them, Ava declines.
After Troy's death and the fake-out ending, the rocks are lifted up off-camera by Ava, who is reintroduced with Maya's book in her arms.
Christian Müller
That would’ve been soooo much better than what we got
Would actually make the character likable if we get rid of her becoming newest Crimson Raiders' leader
Or she realizes that Maya's death is her fault and straight up kills herself
Yeah.. Way better
@@Smitty_Werbluntjaegermanjensen It's a silent rule that kids don't hit the off switch like that. If they did that of how quick we would have hit it for her.
We need a DLC where Krieg comes for Avas head... and we help him turn her into a meat tricycle
At the cost of our entry to sanctuary
@@remilikescheese7908 Nah.
@@mackielunkey2205
I don't think anyone would be happy to see us after we kill ms. I would pick claptrap over you
@@remilikescheese7908 Ava sucks. Krieg deserves to be the next Siren.
@@mackielunkey2205 his hellborn skill tree basically made him 20% siren
Tina: demonizes Angel in her portrayal in Assault on Dragon Keep and blames her for Roland's death
Everyone: is understanding but express to Tina that she's going too far bc Angel was just as much a victim of Handsome Jack as Roland and everyone else
Ava: blames Lilith for Maya's death and shows no regard for her own role in it
Everyone: *crickets chirping*
Lilith wasn't even around and was making bad calls in general. She also loses every fight but besides that Avas dumbass directly killed Maya. Maya wouldn't have grabbed Troy if she wasn't there she wanted to leave but Ava kept talking and talking about her eventual (and unearned) power.
Angel DID betray us technically she wasn't 100% on our side until the second half of BL2 of course Tina would find it hard to see her as the victim. Tina despite living alone and being capable she knew how to listen. She's basically crazy and STILL respects the leaders and adults. Ava couldn't even understand her basically surrogate mother saying "They're gonna kill us they just ate a vault monster kid"
The thing that made me mad was when you return to Sanctuary and Ava says to Lilith “do something before you get someone killed”
But you did that Ava. You literally just did that.
@@emilymccall319 Fucking EXACTLY
the worst thing is, that the new Vault Hunzer theoreticaly could have done something, as the Cutscene rolls after we come out of the Vault and literally have to go right behind those 2. If it rolled when we picked up the Eridian Artifact it would have been a better Choice imo
@@DrFabi yup I hated that. I wanted a boss fight not a lame ass cuckscene.
there was actually a planned cutscene with a much larger funeral for Maya, in it Ava confesses that the reason behind her blowing up at everyone is because she knows that it was her fault. And in turn, Lilith comforts her and tells her about Roland, and how she felt that it was her fault he died. It literally would've turned Ava from the worst character in BL3 to at least tolerable, and with some extra padding and a DLC I feel she could've actually *been* likeable.
you Definitely have to ask why did they cut that scene out, that was one hell of a mistake the writers made.
@@bobmclovinelectricboogaloo it interrupted the flow apparently, but if I had to guess, there was just complications in trying to release the game, so they got rid of anything that didn't directly serve to move the main story forward before shipping.
@@siennaistrans all they had to do to get around this issue is to give this game what most games have the ability to skip cutscenes.
Assault on dragon keep was the single best dlc in the series.
uhhhh, krieg being added???
Claptastic voyage is definitely up there too!
captain scarlet tho
Bruh you **explode the ocean**
I literally just finished it today, but I'm inclined to agree
I think we all need one special cutscene: Ava does something mega deadly stupid and Krieg punches her down and says: you're not pretty lady stay down or reap your lungs out
"I'M GONNA PUT MY PAIN INTO YOUR SOUL!"
In Tiny Tinas dlc, she actually made my eyes get a little tears, her grief in there was so emotional imo... even thinking about it when you talk about it almost makes me get tears in my eyes.
not gonna lie, my eyes dropped some heavy tears when Tina broke down and said "I can't heaaar youuuu" in a shaky voice
Honestly, i has a little bit of hope for ava. If they do her dlc right, she could be a good character. She always had a good setup, but the writing just didnt made her character work.
@@hangmingzhang5067 her dlc? Please no. I don't want Ava in the dlc. Bring back Salvador axton and krieg.
Me too that made rolands death even better. And it made tiny tina a loveable character. That whole dlc being imagined as a board game was fucking amazing i miss it..
Before I see the video, here's my thoughts:
1) Tina isn't a forced REPLACEMENT for any character, she's purely an ADDITION to the team.
2) Ava is just greedy and has very little depth of character. She's just a street rat who looks up to Maya while Tina is the psychotic stick of TNT and explosion of fun.
3) They are on completely different wavelengths, resonating with different audiences. Tina resonates with the deranged viewer that is a borderlands fan while Ava appeals to soap opera viewers.
It's not so much that Ava is just a terrible character. It's that Ava is one of the huge tone shifts that makes no sense for the borderlands scene, piled on top of all the other aspects reshaping the game between 2/PS and 3 and making the ones who loved the original borderlands hate 3 while the new audience they were trying to pander to still had no interest in the series.
Quick answer
Tina isnt a self entitled brat
And Tina has a very particular set of skills...skills that make her a danger to bandits
Tina is also infinitely more entertaining. #TinafornewPhasewalkerSiren
@@Aurora-313 They def need a demolitions class
Yes she is.
They did Maya dirty in this iteration of Borderlands.
Also, I wish there was an option, similar to changing Claptrap's antenna, to slap the little snot when she gets lippy.
Just pull out your Jericho Rocket Launcher and fire mortars at her to down her, closest thing we’ll get to smacking that thing...
@@WASTOIDSUPREME Eh, that sounds a bit harsh.
But let's run with that!
@@scottishboy112 I saw a video demonstrating that a while ago. I'm going to have to try that.
Nah, bring her back to Pandora, Overlook in particular. And then you'll know what to do.
@@WickedParanoid Ah yes, Hyperion loader justice.
"Can I be... mega-real? Sometimes I feel like if I don't keep moving I'll just... stop? Maybe it's a defense mechanism? Whatever. It's nothing."
- Tiny Tina in the Commander Lilith DLC
That line always felt odd to me. I feel it would've been better if the "Maybe it's just a defense mechanism?" part was completely taken out
UsoppTheWeaboo I think it’s because she feels like she has to be ‘energetic’ and ‘ready to run.’ Especially with what she went through in her earlier years.
@@growlithekid you probably can't even imaging how on point that line was.
I'll break it down for you, if she stops moving she will have time to think about things, leading to thoughts of rolands deaths and the pain that comes with it, if she keeps moving forward she doesnt have much time to think about things, also self analyzing herself, realizing what she is doing but still is in denial by saying whatever, its nothing, when really shes hit the nail on the head.
Just my 2 cents.
The assault on dragon keep dlc was heart shattering when I first played it. At first I didn’t realize what was going on and was along with the other characters thinking she was living in a delusion but the confrontation moment was probably one of the saddest things I’ve watched in a game