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HVAC Central AC Equipment About to Get Real Expensive! Myth Busting Flammable R32 & A2L Refrigerant
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 มิ.ย. 2024
- FACT: Central AC Equipment Using R-410A will NOT be Available After January 2025. MYTH: R32 will Explode & Burn Down Your Home!
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The whole reason that the refrigerants are changing (again) is because of the high GWP of R410a. This is an international thing not just a US thing. Most of what we do in this industry is because of government regulations-good or bad. Most manufacturers are going with R454B- this is a blended refrigerant, and it has a very low GWP. Daikin and their brands are going to be using R32. R32 is used in other countries successfully, but the GWP is a little higher than R454B. I attended a class on A2L refrigerants, and we were told that eventually R32 will be phased out too because of the higher GWP than R454B. This is all new and there will be a learning curve as it was with R410a. I do agree with you about the A2L approved vacuum pumps- we will see. The contactors are going to be sealed, as are other components. The installers will have to document the total charge of the unit upon commissioning. If there is a leak at some point it really needs to be fixed-no more gas and go. There has been rumors of required leak detection equipment in the ducts that will sound an alarm if a leak is detected-I guess it all depends on what the state and local codes will require.
I believe R454B is a mix with 1234YF and R32. 1234YF has been used in cars for quite a few years now. The flammability isn't really an issue.
R32 is NOT a blend/mixed refrigerant. R454B is a mixed/blend just like R410a is as well, both of them use R32. Keep up the good work sir! 🤠👍
Thanks for the info!
Mikey you hit a home run with your presentation! You are as good with words, as you are turning wrenches!
Mike, I just called the wholesale house today and they told me that R454 cost $100 more than the same jug of R32.I asked him why that was and they told me it was a carrier tax. carrier owns the patent on R454 and they will control the price just like they have R410 and made tons of money all these years. Please keep the great videos coming.
So the corporations are increasing the price not the Government. Got it!
@user-hk8fb7yb2n why wouldn't they if they are mandated to keep changing refrigerants every 10 years
Corporate greed. what else is new.
@@billhill839 do you expect them to invest and work for free ? Do you work for free ?
Mikey, we see the sign.......................and you are RIGHT. Love yeah MIkey!!!!!
r32 has been used everywhere else outside of the US for years and more efficient. Open patent so anyone can manufacture (cheaper), and single component like r22 and unlike r410a and r454b (patent owned by carrier so they'll control pricing). Personally, I'm looking forward to r32
So parts will still be available for years and 410a production will slow down come 1Jan25.
JUST had a new Amana/ Daiken installed in my rebuilt house, house fire, so guess I may have to buy some 410a and hold onto it in my garage.
Yes, I have my Certificate.
Appreciate the announcement Mickey! Much love from San Diego bro
Tnx for the heads up Mike 🇺🇸😊
it is the compression ratio and required mass flow rate to move x btu that determine efficiency, not the saturated pressures at given temperatures.
if r32 absorbs more heat to boil a pound of it than 410a, that explains it.
The government did such a good job with the EV's. What could go wrong with R32?
Nothing, because it had been used as a constituent in refrigeration for ages. Actually offers really good performance similar to 410 and is cheap too (in Australia anyway)
I actually had a window AC with 32 in it spring a leak, repaired it the leak and filled with 410a. Worked exactly the same.
@@JesseDoesHVAC So has butane. don't want it in my home AC either.
@@robertsmith2956 i really think everyones freaking out over nothing. Propane and natural gas has been used in residential appliances for decades, r32 has an even lower flash point than either of the two. Youd literally have to fill a room with the stuff and light a match to have anything exciting happen.
Trust me, the same thing happened here nearly 10 years ago (Australia) when r32 was rolled out. Everyone lost their shit but here we are all this time later and ive not heard of one incident involving a house fire (or any fire for that matter) where r32 was the blame
@@JesseDoesHVAC or they refuse to admit it. A LOT of houses have been blowing up lately.
Have you seen the size of some of these closets they install the AC in? What is in the system will easily fill it.
Have you heard from your distributors that the price increases will be 20-30% higher or were you speculating? Crazy but what can customers do, if your system is still working why replace it? I’m sure in however many years R410A will be super expensive (like R22 is today) and if someone’s system develops a leak they will be told that since it’s the old refrigerant it will cost a lot to fix vs the newer A2L refrigerants. Best thing to do is save your money and be prepared for when you need to replace it in the future. Always have a stash for mechanical fixes for your home.
I’m hearing on officially that it’s going to be a quarter maybe 30% higher
First rule in government: If it ain't broke, fix it till it is.
Great PSA. Thanks for the information. In my opinion Dupont is running the EPA.
I think so too
Kigali Amendment to Montreal Protocol + Paris Climate Accord & California Carb rules. Dupont sold rights and "freon" brand name to Chemours. Honeywell owns patents on R1234yf which makes up roughly 31% of R454b /69% is R32. Daikin is a producer of R32.
Damn right now the DOW bought Dupont. 1 corperation making everything
@@AustinAirCo i also heard since honey well has that patent daikin will only use r32
It has always been about the money, not the atmosphere. Back in the late 80's and early 90's Russia was making most of the R-12 and selling it cheap. So they put FET on it to make it too expensive to use. Now they are doing the same with every other one, R-22, 134, etc., etc.
Unfortunately just in United States have a lot of restriction
In my country Centeramerica we are still using R-22 !! I don’t know how’s the supposedly is the epa control
How much is a 30lb of R22?
@@PipeDoctor I am from Nicaragua r22 cost around $200 30 pounds
@@manuelpineda8159 haha that's great
Another YT video says that old inventory R410A equipment can no longer be sold to customers after January 1, 2026. Mini-split systems have a later cutoff date of January 1, 2028. The YT video title is: "A2L Refrigerants R-454B and R-32 Explained! Bottles, Changes, Rules, Tools!"
The only thing they are worried about is getting more money in their pockets. Nothing lasts and works like the older units and the environmental cost of these non durable goods that dont last way exceeds the energy savings of these new items.
You’ll see another 20 years from now they’ll be a new refrigerant to replace this A2L
Nutty stuff. I am in the mid-west and do not like cooling too much, but I did buy a R22 condenser, refrigerant and coil to install once the current dies.
How long ago? 15 years?
@@PipeDoctor very good, 20yaers ago when I install the current system.
You can use 410 to repair 32 systems from China. My hubby and I repaired one of my sisters window units with it. And we just str8 dropped in! And it has continued to run for over 2 years now. Now with that said, ac equipment from China come with a minimum charge to start with, and zero service ports! Literally designed to fail! P.s. we did this repair before R32 was available for purchase in the US.
I have an older R410A system. I’m waiting my system stops working before upgrading. However, more importantly I want to see how what works better in the field between R32 and R454B. I know R32 has been around for decades and is proven. I’m interested to see in a few years how these new systems work and the leakage rates since they operate at different pressures. Maybe it’s the same as today. Who knows.
Well, only Dan uses our 32 while the rest of the players use R 454
Refrigerant leaks will be the same as they always have. Even 30 years ago systems leaked. Costs were much cheaper. We litterally gave R22 away 30 years ago. Because? it was cheap. Crazy cheap. R454b has PFAS chemicals in it, so it could be a short lived experiment using that if people enmasse start getting liver cancer. OR the government blames it on booze. Take your pick. Not to mention Temp glide of 2.33 Degrees for R454b. We'll see but following Kigali Amendment requirements for USA, these both with be phased out again in 2036 for something else. Don't get too attached to them. They're only temporary at best.
Someday I'll upgrade with a new system with R-32 soon with saving $$$$$$$. Let's the government do that job.
I’ve been phasing out systems(r22). Ie if your in a home with many units I steel from the oldest system to save the newer system(natural loss). My plan for mansions is to do the same to phase out 410 with what ever catches on next. I’m telling people to wait. Most of the viewers will not understand this type of customer. Everything has to be perfect in the trillion dollar mile. Money is not the problem but in the end I have a lot of fun fixing issues and farming out work to installers I trust. Some people just like people they can trust. Many contractors see 80 million dollar houses and they give crazy quotes. Those owners are not stupid they understand what things should cost. They own companies and many rental home so they can seem cheap but they always pay.
R32 is a single component refrigerant like R22, but unlike R22, R32 is an A2L. R454B that companies like Bosch will use is a blended A2L refrigerant. Seems like most of the industry besides Daikin owned companies (Amana and Goodman), LG, Samsung, Gree, and I think Fujitsu will use R454B (Trane, Carrier, Rheem, Lennox, etc…)
Well carrier is pushing “ Puron advance”
@@PipeDoctor Puron Advance is the label name for R454B. You are correct, Carrier is pushing R454B along with most of the other industry large players besides Daikin.
We are seeing R32 used in Carrier’s scroll chillers. The larger screw chillers will use a different refrigerant. I believe it’s R513B if memory serves me correct but I could be wrong. Right now most of the manufacturers are already making the switch on refrigerants in some way at least on the commercial side of things. I see the residential side make the switch last as the factories finish up the large bulk orders for their distributors.
Thanks Mike!
Hard time finding 410A equipment already here in Minnesota...they miss judged the supply needed to get through summer...busiest time of year and can't get equipment...FUN TIMES BEING A BUSINESS OWNER!!!!!!!!!
Please run your flame test again with heated refrigerant
The Big Guy has to get his cut. There is no need for this at all. Consumers will be paying as much as 15-30% more for new ac systems.
Some manufacturers lost their asses with the 410a switch. The return loops in the condensers and evaporators where tough to seal with the robot brazing units. Molecular levels way smaller than that of R22.
And now the manufacturers are charging consumers more for their own problems. But sure it’s the governments fault 😅😅
I been waiting on this video 🙂
Yeah? Made just for you.
@@PipeDoctor thanks 👍🏻 I just don't buy the man made global warming mess but some do I guess. They also tracked temps rising on the planet mars. Can't be from industry.
Thank you! Great information.
Glad it was helpful!
Mickey, looking to upgrade to a dual fuel system. 3 ton heat pump and Oil forced air furnace.Any suggestions? Love your channel, keep up the good work work.
See above
My dude ! Thanks love the videos
Follow the money.
Mikey just seen heat pump runs off solar and electric if no Sun they are sold out. Comes with everything but panels even the pipes are full of gas no fill needed.
good info,thanks Mikey Pipes....been busy and not following you so much...are you still the Bosch master and do you know anything about ecoer units?thanks
Hey Mikey great video, what do you think of goodman equipment? Thank you Sr.
Cool video, as always the consumer will be screwed no matter what. Contractors will charge u 30% on old systems for being old just as much as they will charge you 30% more for the new systems. This is a given. So just buy whatever the F you want, its going to cost your either way.
Thanks for sharing your feedback
Great video mikey 👏 👍 👌 🙌
Glad you enjoyed it
Wouldn’t that be the name of the game get the new with the new refrigerant so that way if you do get a leak later on in life. It won’t cost a arm and a leg like 410a will be
Refrigerants have changed about every 20 years, correct? The equipment will stop being sold, but the refrigerants but will be available?
Yeah, and it was last year that they want to take away your natural gas stoves in New York, but that became a law
Same here. No a/c until I was an adult. Have you ever wondered how many people in the rest of the world are still using the old refrigerants like R22 and R12? I'll bet we would be shocked.
It is banned world wide genius, No equipment using R22 or R12 is manufactured anymore either...
There has been concern about high compressor discharge temperatures with R32 causing oil carbonization and valve failure… We’ll see how reliable they are soon enough.
I don’t have that much information on ATL‘s and are 32 and 454 or whatever but I can wager is that in 1520 years from now this will also be a phased out refrigerant that they want to get rid of our 12
They've been using R32 in Europe since around 2014. Well over 100 million units in operation. R454b: 0 units installed to date. Guinea Pigs wanted. Don't forget to get tested regularly for liver cancer too. (PFAS chemicals in R454b)
So, if R410a is a blend of R125 and R32, and they are shifting to R32, then there must be something wrong with R125 being used or a benefit of using only R32. (If only slight or solely on paper) What I took from this video is that there is a slight efficiency benefit, but that can't be all there is into the restriction of R410a? This is the question I was asking myself throughout the video, unfortunately it was left unanswered. Regardless, the video informed me a lot, although there seems to be a lot of speculation.
now apply flame to the r32 at a slower rate. it is my suspicion that the flame went out due to oxygen depravation.
This is the exact concern also need to add a little bit of refrigerant oil in the mix.
That's depraved 😮
The air to gas ratio for ignition point is astronomical for r32.
Let the furnace heat up to cherry red to simulate a bearing burning.
Here in Europe they are lowering the GWP limit a lot by next year so companies are getting rid of R32 (that we were using for a least 5 years)... And they are replacing it with R290... Propane so not only flammable bur also explosive. Only because its GWP its very low
Carrier and Rheem are going to be using 454B and Daikin will be using R32. Now we gotta carry two more refrigerants on our trucks in those ridiculous upright only containers. I carry 5 different types now. Will soon need 7. Smh
What if the price of r410a skyrockets? Didn't that happen with the previous refrigerant?
Well, the price of 410 a skyrocketed a couple years ago if you remember right 400+ dollars for 25 pounds and now it’s between 250 and that range
I've heard this 30% higher difference in equipment but I haven't heard any evidence as to why it would be 30% more? Earlier in the video you mentioned installing two Daikin systems with R32, were those 30% more than a comparable R410 system? If so what are manufactures providing that justifies the increase? I know they are using R32 in minisplits and I didn't see a 30% difference in the price between the R32 and the R410 Daikin minisplits for comparable units. Thanks in advance! Great vid!
No, they were slightly higher than an R410A system. I don’t know why, but that’s what I heard. 20-30% increase.
It’s because of the onboard leak detection that will be factory installed in the evap coils, and field connected to the furnace. And Special contactors now that don’t ‘spark’. And why the hell not, perfect time for them to jack up prices. It’s a shame
The statement that R410 equipment will no longer be available after Jan 2025 is false. The law states they can no longer make them it does not say you can buy or install them. What is left in the supply chain most certainly can be sold and installed until 2026.
We use R32 for a long time in Europe. It works well, although it is no comparison to R22/R12 in performance, handling and safety. I have a R32 system in my new 4 zone central AC for 2 years now. No problems so far.
I think it is still better than R410a which is a zeotropic mixture after all. R32 is azeotropic.
R32 is flammable, but R1234yf is way worse (especially in its decomposition when heated) and it is used in confined spaces like car ACs.
Your flammability test is not really conclusive though. You have to test the flammability at the same overall pressures, best in a container of equal size and a steady ignition source like a small gas flame.
And BTW, R410a is 50% R32 anyway.
Nice information 😊
Have you serviced any R290 propane units yet? Fully flammable. Its fun working on these cases in a kitchen with open flames.
No, I have not yet
The Tampa Bay area A jug of R 32 is only 20 pounds of juice and cost $300 , 410A is 25 pounds and cost $250
Have you tried lightly spraying r32 over an open flame? Not sure if the velocity of the r32 you sprayed put it out? - looked like you might have tried a few times. Wonder if r454”x” is the same? Feels concerning to have an ac coil eventually leak over the top of a gas furnace…. Assuming that’s been tested….??
I’ll do a follow up video
@@PipeDoctorbe careful! I love your videos lol!
The government should stay out of everything
It’s just like them trying to ban gas appliances, including water, heaters, furnaces, stoves, dryers, trying to replace an existing gas tankless water heater with an electric you’re gonna need a new service you know how much that’s gonna cost it’s crazy to me
Maybe prices were going up regardless of refrigerant type.
Every month, every year , up , up , up
Trane is pushing for R-454b as the new standard though
You will still be able to buy R410A just like you can still buy R22 and R12. You just cannot buy new systems and install them after the 1st. I read, if you have stock of the equipment, you can get an exception for that equipment. But no more new systems can be produced for use in the US. They are only doing it to lower the GWP. The goal is to move to R290, or Ammonia or even R718 eventually. Fieldpiece MR45's are A2L certified as are their SMAN and probes.
R290 is very common here in Australia 🇦🇺particularly for hot water heat pump’s (air to water)
@@JesseDoesHVAC R290 is used nearly in all modem refrigerators and people don't even know they have it in their homes. I would be OK with R290 in our future systems. I think we are just in stepping stones right now. As things get more efficient, it will be an easier change-over.
But R32 has been in use in countries all the world for a very long time. Many brands are already landing in the states ready for purchase with R32 from Daikin/Amana, Midea products and various others.
I sure hope it isn't the battle of Blu-ray vs. HD DVD all over again. Carrying four different refrigerants on the vans are going to get cramped.
I sell many different brands of equipment and we service everything, so we won't have a choice but to play ball.
@@Balticblue93 ive been installing r 32 systems here in aus for nearly 10 years
@@JesseDoesHVAC And I have ordered my first split systems with R32. After all, R32 is 50% of 410a. All Midea window units and mini-splits are R32. Carried has a contract with Midea R32 units. But Daikin and Amana are shipping R32 now. I don’t care about GWP because we don’t vent refrigerants like other countries do. But back to a single compound organic HFC. It’s only temporary for a period of time till we switch to one of 5-6 different refrigerant that meet stricter guidelines. I just roll with instead of fighting it. I know guys putting R32 in 410a systems without issues so far. I like testing compressors. And an R32 compressor drops right into a 410a system. Be interesting testing in my future.
What about co2 or ammonia refrigerant as used in commercial units
Come on Mikey, you dealing with top gum school again.lol
I am hearing that even the cost of window units, which I think a lot of people are going to switch to, are going up in price in the name of 'efficiency.' This has to stop.
So I do have a very close relationship with Bosch and I have not gotten any official word as to what kind of price point and price increases. We will be looking at after Q1 2025 but I can’t say that off the record. I’ve been told it’s going to be “significant”
@@PipeDoctor Hi Mike. Thank you for replying to my question. Do you mean the Bosch window units or central air systems in terms of significant price increases. I think in any case powers at be want to take away the average American's ability to cool themselves in the summer; make it to where only the well off can afford an A/C system. But, that just my two cents.
Years ago a good window unit was 200/300$. They they started make throw away units for under 100$, some as cheap as 80$. Shows how much they care about the environment like they claim to.
@dc6233 what about the electric cars....the mining and coal fired plants....bs
I think the increased "flammability" is coming from the refrigerant that is going to be blended with the R32. The auto ignition temperatures for R410A is 790°C/1454°F and the R454B that it seems that most of the industry is adopting has an AIT of 498°C/928°F. (R32 alone has an AIT of 648°C/1198°F.) Also another reference for the temperatures is the AIT of R22 632°C (1,170°F).
I think at the end of the day everyone needs to stop un sweating fittings. Also the reason for vacuums needing to be spark proof is due to the refrigerants that are trapped in the oil and are being boiled off.
Unfortunately most of the information that is becoming available seem to have a large sales pitch behind the info.
I totally agree just like sales training by manufacturers is mostly sales
Its like medication. The patent is up.
Did you delete the video about not replacing the soft start in the ac with the Telsa wall system
So I assume the price of 410a will also skyrocket like r 22 did? And another question if I have a 410 minisplit will I still be able to get inside head parts?
Hey Mikey,
I have a 16 year old Ruud R22 system that is well maintained and running good.
Would you recommend sitting tight until it craps out, or switch now to a new unit with 410a, or one with the new R32?
Thanks.
Its actually 18 years old.
The air handlers should be able to run r32? 3% pressure differential between the two as you mentioned means the txv/eevs should still work fine
Also speaking from experience with r32 here in aus for nearly a decade, the equipment may be more “efficient” but they sure a shit do not last as long as their predecessors
I think r290 hasn’t been approved in the US because r32 makes the companies more money. We would see a lot more air to water heat pumps in the US if r290 was approved.
Well, I think we’re just gonna have 32 and 454 to replace 410
R290 is only approved up to 5 oz. It is only used in small refrigeration. Reach in coolers and such. R32 and 454B are / will be used for comfort cooling
What are the roiugh pressure difference btween R410 and R32 %
Well this might explain all the houses blowing up this year.
can see window units getting popular again LOL
10:19 What ya blurrin?
I sent him a pinup calendar of Steve Lav posing in Speedos, thongs, etc. He is a bit shy to show it off in public.
Hey Mike do you have a link to that double temperature reader that you use on your condensers? @mikeypipes
R290 is propane?
I think they made the consumers pay with the FET not Dupont.
You want to talk about flammable? My GE refrigerator uses R600a, which is isobutane.
Wow 😮
Same with mine, but charge is only a few ounces. Probably burn off in seconds if it leaks.
R22 was also ozone depleting so we had to change out of it. The GWP of R410a is 3 times that of R32. Should just be an issue of the system handling the pressure? I mean it could be just a matter of pressurizing the lines to a little over 1.6 times that of r410a and if the seals/copper handles that, it should be good to change over. Just sound like a way for corporations to insert obsolescence into working systems. Hope someone outside the greed circle tests out some r410a systems with r32 and finds out. This is not about global warming, that mostly comes from the industry circle and we should not be paying for it.
That was my thought when 410a first appeared on the scene. The higher running pressures. Common sense says running any gas or liquid at higher pressures means the chance of leaks increase.
R290 will be comming. In uk in monoblocs already
What about an old 1985 R22 Rheem system that is still running in Florida lol. Wish I could attach a picture as proof lol
Send it!!
All refrigerant is flammable. 454B Puron plus is a little more flammable just better for the environment
Yes
It's such bs!!! Lower utility costs but will end up costing you 50 percent more to install. The people who make these laws are clueless, they really don't care about the environment or people in general. It's all about image for them.
Screw them!
you forgot new gauges, new hoses, new press fitting tool. GD $1000's in new equipment. for a potenial
Yeah,
I forgot
Welcome to my world.....they are working on the 0.001% industry to remove global warming.....really?? Here in NZ we are tops for greenie heaven.... Our gas prices went through the roof and the customer pays now or not fix. In saying that now our margin for gas is more pofit.
Cmon man..
I was waiting for a comment on that little slide. I stepped in there.
Love those Biden 1970s cmon mannn
@@PipeDoctor huh?
Hey Mike did you sell those book for the Florida state test?
Yes
I thought R32 wasn’t a blend, but R454B is.
Mike what that r32 cost if u don’t mind
I just wish we didn't have to use the reusable cylinders
We don't have to. The us is exempted
Same old thing, It only matters to you when it's about what you do for a living. You are like little old Ben.
I'm still brazing with the new stuff and flow nitrogen as always !!
Nothing wrong with that
@@PipeDoctor I hope you and the pipe doctor team had a great day 😊
How many of you worry about natural gas when servicing a furnace? It is extremely flammable. Do you use non-sparking tools to work around it? Dies the equipment have gas alarms? A2Ls are a whole lot safer than A2Ls. Think about it.
Why would the price go up? Sounds like an excuse for installers just to bump prices 20% for no reason.
The underlying technology, principles and materials are the same.
Excuse for installers? I’m sorry I don’t make up prices that I pay for equipment that I install in my clients homes. There is a reason that a 3 ton carrier 16 seer system installed was seven to $8000.06 eight years ago and now it’s 13,000. It’s not my fault. Blame it on, something else
@@PipeDoctor greedy manufactures also.
It's a sad day when your Hero takes the time to block out his Trump Flags
Using A2l will save you money..... Also this just in not driving your car will save you money also. Not eating as much....wait I know lets say you can only eat 2 times aday that should save the world alot of resources...
Hey Mikey, of Mikey Pipes Plumbing not easy being cheesy. I like your podcast/social media, looking thru some comments/reply??. According to science one volcano erupting in one day, will pollute the earths atmosphere in one day, what it takes all of human kind to do in 100 years. But again, main land China and the USSR are the biggest polluters of the earths atmosphere. But again, you talking like Henry Ford, and you don't want Model A fords. In the 1890s thru 1930s their had used liquid propane in most refrigeration systems. Love you buddy, you be safe out there.
Everyone is using R454B except Goodman/Daikin will be using R32.
That’s what it looks like to me I agree
Best explanation I've heard. Haven't heard Lav's yet😮. Love the flag of Israel !
Thank you very much. I was getting some emails from several viewers and subscribers and then a link to this guy who promotes unprofessional practices and letting homeowners install HVAC equipment like it’s normal and legal all in the name of saving money and not letting the license and insured and qualified HVAC contractor make a living Guy makes a living peddling his shit
He'll reap what he sows. I even watched this vid a 2nd time. ( maybe a 3rd )
Lav is HVAC illiterate.
why don't they just faze out all refrigerants and not have any. they won't because then they can't charge more for a new refrigerant!
Ya ok
That makes literally zero sense...
So, the new, more expensive equipment will replace R410A equipment one month after the federal elections.
Planned obsolescence...ha ha😮
Job security that I’d rather not have.