A Christian Approach to Justice: Gregory of Nyssa on Slavery
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 มิ.ย. 2024
- One of the most controversial topics in our culture is justice. In the church, issues related to justice have been divisive and fracturing. Here I propose several ways we can learn about what it means to stand up for justice from the early church father Gregory of Nyssa, particularly his opposition to slavery.
This talk was originally delivered at Karam Forum 2021. Learn more about the great work of the Karam Forum here: karamforum.org/
Truth Unites is a mixture of apologetics and theology, with an irenic focus.
Gavin Ortlund (PhD, Fuller Theological Seminary) serves as senior pastor of First Baptist Church of Ojai.
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00:00 - The Agony of Injustice
01:37 - Justice is Controversial
02:37 - Gregory of Nyssa
03:06 - 1) There's Always Been Care About Justice
06:02 - 2) We Have Good Reasons to Care About Justice
08:14 - 3) We Should Care About Justice Today
11:10 - Practical Takeaways
13:32 - A Final Encouragement
I’m actually preparing to teach on how Christians must pursue both evangelism and Justice later this week, so this was really encouraging and helpful. Thank you!
Awesome! 👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿. I love Gregory of Nyssa and I love Jesus even more 🙂
This is a great message on what Christians should be doing more of as we see a sin sick world.
@@bersules8 Was St. Gregory’s catholicity in dispute?
Exactly, Gavin. Thank you so much. It is frustrating seeing Christians dismiss certain issues solely because a leftist mentioned them. Justice is justice, let’s entertain these issues and examine them biblically.
I completely agree. But we do need to recognize that the left does have a bad habit of framing issues as injustices when sometimes they are not. Discernment is required, as I think Gavin makes clear.
@@stueve Leftist / Democrat / Devout Christian here.
Your response is pretty much sums up the issue todayS. If we see clear evidence of racism or discrimination and then the response is it is not racism and discrimination. For example hiring data shows clear patterns of discrimination.
So what I see from folks on the right - and I am not saying you do this - what I see is a refusal to consider any evidence of injustice except for the most egregious conspicuous kinds; and even then there is little effort to address it.
So in your response I think I see why the prophets in the Bible and Gregory of Nyssa were in the minority. The majority of folks responded by saying “we just don’t see a problem”. It’s easy to see how the folks opposed to the prophets in the Bible would say we need discernment and so they disagreed with the prophets.
This message from Gavin is a great reminder that the folks calling out for justice are always in the minority, and their work is heavily opposed by folks claiming that we need discernment or accusing people of complaining too much.
Again, I am not say you are doing this.
Cheers 🙂👍🏿
What are these "certain issues" that Christians are dismissing?
@@thomasc9036 That’s easy. Let’s look at the way “strangers” (or illegal immigrants) are being used as political pawns. The Bible commands us to welcome the stranger and love them and treat them like we would wanted to be treated in that situation. Right wing Christians are deafeningly silent or embrace the rejection and putting down of folks in desperate situations coming to America for help. Right wing Christians could care less about these folks being bussed to other places like baggage. Even if you disagree and think they should be put out of the country, the Christian should condemn them being treated like things and rebuke those governors for treating image bearers of God in such a callous way.
Not surprisingly, the right wing Christian sees no issue in humans being mistreated.
It’s fascinating to watch conservative Christians engage in histrionics about gay marriage and abortion, then flagrantly ignore vast swaths of Christ teachings that go against their agenda. The same God that has clear teachings on sexuality and the sanctity of all life is the same God that promised hell for those who mistreat or even ignore the vulnerable.
@@thomasc9036, it’s not “Christians” that are dismissing them necessarily. But if you are like me and you are strongly opposed to CRT’s understanding of “equity” because it undermines the equality of the rule of law, you understand the temptation to simply speak against a wrong headed “solution” without positivity articulating a way forward or addressing the wrongs that do exist. Negating a negative doesn’t necessarily result in a positive. That is a real danger for all of us.
practical teaching
Great job Gavin. The thought that we can own another person does arise from pride. But so does the thought that serving others is beneath you. The roles of “master” and “servant”, or “business owner” and “employee”, or “government official” and “subject” is always one of mutual servanthood to God first and then service to each other IN those roles.
When it comes to issues of justice, we seem unable to move beyond acting like spoiled children, unable to see beyond our own immediate needs, wants and partisan talking points. “Lighten our darkness, we beseech thee, O Lord."
Very interesting... I shall look for that writing by Gregory.
One thing on my heart lately is caring more about different social topics than other Christians. To some extent, I feel the things I most care about are part of my calling. Others, however, may think I am not focused on what they believe is most important. It is hard to navigate these conflicts of priority, and it can be rather discouraging.
Really great presentation Dr. Ortlund
Thank you for this perspective.
I've only just recently discovered Gregory of Nyssa and this talk was amazing. I'm really looking forward to exploring the thought and writings of Gregory of Nyssa. Thank you for this
Thank you.
Gavin, you have legs! 😀
I think Vodie Baucham's been a great resource for me to learn from in understanding biblical justice, and some of the encroaches of cultural Marxism in the church and programatic manipulation of a lot of us via distorting the Bible's real concern for a society reformed by Chrsit's Kingship into a totalitarian redistribution of wealth, or social credibility, in a kind of ad hoc and partial way to whoever claims the oppressed status at a given time.
💗💯👏
I see a professor from here in GR in the crowd... where was this?
Hello Gavin, I recall you said you have a Christian conviction to never compromise on the issue of racism. There are people I know who I consider Christian that will receive Christian corrections but have racist views.
How would you address a Christian who says a different race is less intelligent or more violent, and thus while it's not okay to hate them it's okay to treat them differently?
Seriously? A “Christian” said that? Can you provide more details? I am genuinely curious.
Racism isn't being honest about truth. It's treating an actual individual on the basis of appearance in stead of heart. If some race is statistically more intelligent, that might be true, I don't know, I can't a priori exclude that from the realm of truth. But a Christian will treat actual individuals they meet well regardless. Even though a more intelligent race might be more prone to narcissism and legalism, it is not cause for a Christian to treat them worse.
> How would you address a Christian who says a different race is less intelligent or more violent, and thus while it's not okay to hate them it's okay to treat them differently?
Ask them to furnish hard proof.
Then deal with the proof.
- - -
If you had an individual in your home (regardless of race) who was more prone to violence or had less intelligence, would you treat that individual differently? If so, how?
Laying aside the question of intelligence and violence, it is a fact that different cultures behave differently. Can/should you treat members from those cultures differently than you would members of other cultures? If so, how?
(I work with people from multiple disparate cultures [mostly African cultures] so these questions are not academic for me, and I already have answers in my mind about how I would [do] behave. But I'm curious to hear others)
People who are on minimum wage and don't have enough money to pay the rent or buy enough food...I sometimes wonder if they are worse off than slaves in OT times, who were nothing like slaves on plantation. They got enough food and shelter. And if they ran away, did not gave to return, I believe. Which was incentive for them to be treated well...I might be wrong
@@bersules8 Interesting. Thanks.
@@bersules8 well yes, i have a lot of time for Gavin, it's true. And if trolling makes you happy, then carry on. But makes not the blindest bit of difference to me. You'll have to try harder!
Exodus 21:20-21
New International Version
20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.
What you say seems true to me but I don't see what CRT or cultural Marxism has to do with it. Those ideas are fundamentally opposed to Christianity.
CTR is not opposed to Christianity what are you talking about?
What’s this? An evangelical… citing Gregory of Nyssa? On justice no less? Gregory, The Father of the Fathers and the flower of Orthodoxy, and a more explicit universalist than Origen himself, being cited by a protestant. I thought I had seen it all.
You must be very ignorant of Protestantism lol. Plenty of Protestants know at least some church history but the historic churches are pretty entrenched. Also the Protestants don’t have much issue with a orthodoxy except with icons and maybe one or two other things.
Except the Bible does not say all slavery is unjust, it actually says it is just in cases of lawful debt. Amos 5:21-23 is talking about being just acvording to the law of Moses. As Micah, the Israelites “have been told what the Lord requires” of them in the Law of Moses. Here’s what another early church father said of the justice of the judicial law in the Law of Moses:
“Now Moses, to speak comprehensively, was a living law, governed by the benign Word. Accordingly, he furnished a good polity, *which is the right discipline of men in social life. He also handled the administration of justice, which is that branch of knowledge which deals with the correction of transgressors in the interests of justice* . Co-ordinate with it is the faculty of dealing with punishments, which is a knowledge of the due measure to be observed in punishments. And punishment, in virtue of its being so, is the correction of the soul. In a word, the whole system of Moses is suited for the training of such as are capable of becoming good and noble men, and for hunting out men like them; and this is the art of command. And that wisdom, which is capable of treating rightly those who have been caught by the Word, is legislative wisdom. *For it is the property of this wisdom, being most kingly, to possess and use* .”
- Clement of Alexandria, Stromata Book I
So do you think American slavery was just?
Can you provide examples of slavery that you think are just and accord with the Bible? Furthermore, what is about slavery systems you find to be just make them accord with the Bible? In the slavery systems you find to be just, would it be wrong for the enslaved to rebel against them? Finally, would you be willing to be enslaved in the same systems you think are just?
You quoted Clement of Alexandria. So do you disagree with Gregory of Nyssa’s critique of slavery?
Thanks. I am really curious.
@@gfujigo No, American slavery was unjust. Exodus 21, Leviticus 25:39-46, and Deuteronomy 15, for example, gives rules on just slavery. In context, they are to pay a debt "if someone becomes poor and sells himself" (Leviticus 25) and not by kidnapping, which is a capital offense (Exodus 21:16). The African slave trade was kidnapped slaves.
A thief must also pay restitution for what he stole, and this is paid of like debt, by slave labor (Exodus 22:3).
Sure, I would be willing to be a slave justly if necessary to pay off a serious debt and/or if I was guilty of theft. That would be just. I would also be willing to be unjustly treated just as Peter contemplates in 1 Peter 2:17-24, suffering injustice for the sake of Christ. But I certainly do not condone the actions of anyone who unjustly treats, and as the Bible says, unjust enslavers/kidnappers do not inherit the kingdom of God unless they repent by not enslaving anymore (1 Timothy 1:10).
@@gfujigo
Yes, I disagree with Gregory of Nyssa’s analysis. It is too high and philosophical. It may apply better to unjust forms of slavery which certainly do treat slaves as if they were animals by enslaving people without the good cause (lawful debt payment and restitution).
@@IAmisMaster Thanks for your answers. It’s such a relief when someone answers questions so clearly and directly. Even though I don’t agree with some of what you said I really appreciate you answering my questions.
It seems what you are describing as just is indentured servitude and not slavery as we know and understand it today. I also agree with you that enslavement in America was deeply unbiblical.
I however disagree with your assessment of Gregory of Nyssa. I think he is exactly right and very practical by pointing out the arrogance of one human to think they can own another and especially when one human thinks they have the right to engage in brutal domination, natal alienation, kidnapping, and placing someone below them in social status. Gregory of Nyssa is exactly right when he points out this is a flagrant violation of God’s law and the teachings of Christ.
You cited the law of Moses but did not include what Christ taught about loving our neighbors as ourselves.
Peter’s suffering was for God and spreading that he gospel, not being enslaved to kidnappers and murdering rapists.
Again, thanks for answering the questions.
All the best to you. 👍🏿
@@gfujigo You say: "You cited the law of Moses but did not include what Christ taught about loving our neighbors as ourselves."
What do you think Jesus was referring to when He says we are to love your neighbor as yourself?
"You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but *you shall love your neighbor as yourself* : I am the Lord." - Leviticus 19:18
There is an implicit false dichotomy in your statement, that all slavery is antithetical to Jesus' teachings. Yet 1 Peter 2, 1 Timothy 6, and the Book of Philemon exist. You are conflating justice and mercy. Even if it would be the Christian thing to do to forgive debts and not require a thief pay one back, that does not mean it is not justice for a slave to pay back. As the Bible states, justice and just law is defined by the Law of Moses, not the Sermon on the Mount's additional commands of forgiveness and mercy.
Fallen into same trap quoting church fathers. Again no interest in the Jewish perspective of their own scriptures.
The Old testament could only be interpreted by the light of the New testament, the Early Church Fathers were well taught by the Apostles and the Doctrines which they have passed down to them. Judaism openly rejects the New testament and deny Yeshua being the messiah, therefore a false religion. They must become Christians in order to be save. It is not by the blood of Abraham that a person is save, it is by the Blood of Christ
22 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.
(1 John 2:22-23)
32 So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, 33 but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.
(Matthew 10:32-33)
@@ministeriosemmanuel638 again falsely interpretated by western Dogmas. Many scriptures in prophecy of Israel will never be abandoned by their God. Your false church preached opposite to the prophets of Israel. Not all Israel is true Israel, same as not all who say Lord Lord will enter into the kingdom. The terms of father and son are related to Israel Messiah. Isaiah chapter 63. Who is Israel's true Father. Read verse16-18. Its not Abraham or Jacob/ Israel.