There is one thing about this video I take very seriously, and that is the thumbnail. Question my scholarship all you want, but you cannot deny that my thumbnail carries scholarly gravitas. ALSO: I respond to some criticism here: th-cam.com/users/postUgkx1VMlzlE9wnLYdZpeuifApMjlrJmEVUsZ
Here here. Seeing the thumbnail made me quiet myself and steel my nerves before clicking the video, seeing how deeply weighty the matter would be. (In all reality though, so excited to see your scholarly work! Watching right now!)
As a Catholic considering Protestantism for several years now, this video was very important for me. Thank you Gavin. I've been doing my best building a defensive case for my Catholic beliefs, but more and more I feel like some of Catholic doctrines are impossible to properly defend, it boils down to appeal to authority of Pope in so many issues... Veneration of images was ALWAYS a hard pill to swallow for me too. I remember being on a Retreat Mass where all participants were asked to venerate an Icon of Mary. Not even Mary herself, but very specifically, her icon, and the prayer that followed was also, very specifically, addressing and asking THE HOLY ICON to answer the prayers. I can not describe how haunting and disturbing was this event for me. I wasn't educated enough to know why what was going on was wrong, but I knew it, I felt it in my heart, in my very soul. I was watching lots of both Catholic and Protestant Apologists on this and other topics that were concerning to me for years, and your channel has been, hands down, the best content for this purpose I've ever seen. Please keep answering these hard questions Gavin. You have no idea how hard it is for us Catholics to find a way out, even if we feel in our gut that we should. These videos are very helpful.
I very nearly decided to become Catholic not long ago. I'm massively drawn towards the emphasis on tradition, high-church liturgy, and having a simple way to settle disputes of doctrine. What stopped me was that I couldn't get the idea out of my head, feelings, conscience, whatever one wants to call it, that Christ almost certainly would not want people anathematized and, so, removed from the Church for merely being unable to believe in, say, Mary's perpetual virginity, her assumption, or even her being immaculately conceived. There were a few other issues, but this, I think, was the biggest. How can it be Christ's Church, His body, if man can remove members from it erroneously, especially if such tradition is as authoritative as scripture?
@@Real_LiamOBryan have you ever considered other high church contexts with a structure of authority for setting disputes, but more inclusive and open? Like Anglicans or high Methodist or others? As a Catholic, by far the most powerful asset of protestantism is the freedom of choice. Catholics have no say about anything as far as their fate is concerned. We have to do and believe everything the magisterium teaches. I'm technically not even Catholic anymore for even having the doubts that I have. It's strict to the point of absurdity. It's not the "freedom in Christ" that Jesus promised us for sure.
@@mitromney Yes, I have. My doctrinal beliefs align very closely with conservative sorts of Methodism, and even fairly closely with conservative sorts of Anglicanism. I'm definitely not Lutheran in my beliefs. Still, being relatively close to Catholicism on some doctrines I don't feel 100% Protestant, and definitely not 100% Catholic. I believe that prayer to the saints is acceptable, that the Bishop of Rome should have a primacy of honor, that Sola Scriptura is either false or incomplete, that the dulia/latria distinction is true and useful and, therefore, that worshipping others (such as saints) is acceptable, that there is great importance--necessity even--in unity, that tradition is really important, etc. This is mostly academic for me, unless I choose Catholicism (which seems unlikely to me) or Methodism, because I only have two churches within reasonable travel distance from me, Catholic and low-church Wesleyan (which is a type of Methodist). By the way, what are your thoughts on whether Jesus would want disbelievers in Marian dogmas removed from the Church? I suppose another large issue I had is that it seems that the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, which is formal dogma (as far as I know), seems--in part--to directly contradict the writings of Ignatius, not have biblical support (which isn't massively important to me), be influenced by Greek philosophy, and ontologically subordinates The Son to The Father by removing His aseity, making His existence ab alio instead. It says that Christ is eternally (πρὸ πάντων τῶν αἰώνων/before all of the ages) begotten, but Ignatius says that The Son is begotten in the flesh and, explicitly, unbegotten in the spirit (Ephesians 7:2). Those are my two biggest issues. I would love to hear your thoughts on them, if you have any you would like to share.
This was beautiful. I believe your intellect is a gift from God. Thank you for all of your work. I will be looking into purchasing copies of your works. May God bless your soul, my brother in Christ. 🩷
@@ramichahin2 (Col 1,15) "HE IS THE IMAGE of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation." So.. you must be runaway from the movie titled "Dumb & Dumber".
@@johnnyd2383 What does that prove? All it is how Christ is the image of God. This is not the same as icon veneration as defined in Nicea II. Make a better case
Praying for you, Gavin. This has caused quite a stir and dealing with accusations, mischaracterizations, disingenuous interpretations, and lies thrown at you is hard. Especially when in online communities like TH-cam, it feels like you are outnumbered and outnumbered = you must be wrong. Be encouraged that you are doing good work, and the hasty responses that have been made to you completely mischaracterize your views and dodge the points made. Most importantly, I'm praying that you are graciously given the strength to fight off the attacks of Satan which tempt you to anger, defensiveness, and pride - may God get the glory!
As an orthodox who has had a big issue with kissing icons and praying to saints from childhood, I thank God for you and your videos. Look at their fruits. Look into how the priests actually conduct themselves in the orthodox countries. Look at their fruits. No one loves money more than an orthodox priest and his wife.
@Truth Unites ah man, my husband and I had high hopes for you as a rational Protestant. Do you venerate the Bible? If so, then you are worshipping the Bible, which, by your logic, makes an idol out of it. The Word (i.e. Jesus) has existed infinitely longer than the Bible (John 1). The Bible is a gift from God, not God Himself. Similar to demonizing kissing the Bible, your demonizing kissing icons is tantamount to demonizing other gifts from God based on YOUR imperfect wisdom. It's a form of Manichaeism - a terrible heresy that causes grief among the faithful because it misrepresents who God is to His loved ones. By you proclaiming good things as bad, you make yourself into a god, and THAT is what causes you to be an anathma. Regards, Dr. Enshala
This is surely one of the most intellectually challenging videos I’ve ever seen. Committed Catholic here, and that commitment’s still standing, but Boy, we’ve got some ‘splainin’ to do.
@johnlittle1993 Peace. All explaining has been done. I refer you to Nicea II for an explanation on icons. Also- veneration does not equal worship. As the Church, we venerate the Cross of Christ. In essence, it is simply wood, with no real worldly value. However, it was what happened on that cross that makes all the difference. Similarly, the author of this post would not trample upon his Bible or burn it, not because it has great value in and of itself (it's paper and ink and maybe a hard cover), but because of what it represents. The icon of the so-called "Dark Virgin" is again made of simple materials. But it is believed to have been painted by the Disciple and Evangelist, Luke. Icons are a window as such, into the life of Christendom. THAT is why they are venerated. Through those windows, the Faithful come to know our Lord in a profound way. Stay the course. Blessings.
Hey, Bro. Thanks for writing. I actually did read Nicea II. And I actually did read the Canon where those who do not venerate icons are judged with an anathema. So, at least as far as the plain meaning of those canons is concerned, icon veneration is not optional for Catholics apparently; the legislation makes it mandatory. That process of development is a hard maneuver in my opinion, and I appreciate the resistance, even though I don’t per se judge the use of icons negatively. But maybe you can give me a pointer, because I can’t find it easily myself: since Gavin here says that Nicea II was not ratified by Rome at the time its decrees were promulgated, can you perhaps help me find the later act where it received papal confirmation? I’m interested to see if the confirmation was plenary or partial. Thanks!
@@JohnLittle1993 Peace, brother. Thank you for the comment, and you are most welcome. Remember that icon veneration is a respect and recognition of what the icon represents, which are truths of the Faith. That is the reason for the veneration. That same respect has been applied to stained glass windows and statues (and Church buildings for that matter) that depict stories of Salvation History. The idea is that just as we venerate the written Word that tells the story of Salvation History, we also venerate that SAME Holy Story depicted in Sacred Art. There really isn't a difficult concept to grasp here, as some would make it to be. In the end it comes down to believing and respecting (venerating) Salvation History as it is taught in images and Word. I will have to look into the acceptance of the Universal Church with regard to the canons. I would say that because Nicea II has not been refuted by the Church as other official gatherings of bishops (the Robber Synod comes to mind), there is at least an implicit acceptance of the Council if, in fact, there isn't an official recognition. There is more to the story for sure. Blessings.
@@JD-sj1znHi. When you say "all explaining has been done", do you mean that all of the guy in the video's points have been debunked? If so, where can I find all of the debunks?
I have to admit, you make a very good argument that not only wowed but challenged my own faith. Too often do we hear from Catholics and Orthodox saying that the veneration of iconography was historical. Per your research, that is simply not the case.
I think the opposition to the veneration of icons is a Judaizing artefact rather than a mandate of the Christian faith because Christian Freedom dispensed with it. Many of the early Christians had that Jewish iconoclasm imbedded in their faith practice even though they were free of the Law. Compare that to how many early Christians were against doing away with the 4th Commandment, namely “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy" for obvious reasons. The Law said the observance was for eternity. Observing the Sabbath was even more foundational in Judaism than the issue of images. Christ never mentioned doing away with the Sabbath. He followed the Sabbath. Yet, the Church, which are the apostles and the believers, mandated that the that observance was not needed and the "new" day of worship was Sunday. What gall, what usurpation of power if they did not have the Lord's delegated authority. But the Church DID AND DOES HAVE Christ's delegated authority. The Church declaring the veneration of icons as licit makes official what Christian Freedom allowed all along. That the Church figures Gavin quoted retained certain Judaizing sentiments does not mean that Christian Freedom was no longer in operation. Church figures come and go, each shaped by their milieu and their outlooks stamped with the prevailing issues of the day but it is the Church that bears Christ's promise, eternally joined to Him, inseparable. It is the Church that moves through history and will do so in eternity.
@@AL_YZ This is a great observation. I really think there should be freedom in Christ and conscience for this. I think it may be a mistake to mandate veneration of icons, and a mistake to disallow the veneration of icons. There are a lot of issues in Romans 12-15 about freedom of conscience that sometimes gets lost in the tradition, either through unnecessary proscription or enforced prescription. If the Protestant movement can do one thing, I hope it's not the overthrowing of tradition, but the reintroduction to freedom of conscience on some of these traditions. But if freedom of conscience swings the opposite direction into condemnation of tradition, it just is repeating similar errors.
@@jonathananstett784 For a Roman Catholic, Christian Freedom prevails UNTIL the Church makes a definitive declaration of dogma after which the matter is settled. For instance, prior to the canon being finalized, there was back and forth as to which books were included, even among the fathers. But after a consensus is reached within the Church, questioning the canon was no longer an option. The working out of defined doctrines within the Church is often a contentious process over centuries sometimes - like finalizing the canon. For the RC, it is not just a pope unilaterally deciding this or that. Regarding the decree to compel veneration of icons, that was a very specific response to the intense battles - theological and political - which involved the powers of the day. It really tore through the Church of the time. It was authoritative but time-bound in practice. Like the issue of the Jewish Sabbath observance I mentioned, that was settled by the Church. So no-one has compelled anyone for the longest time ever since the iconoclastic controversies were over a thousand years ago. The Church had declared that the veneration of icons is licit and that is settled. Most RC are not even aware it was part of a recognized ecumenical council.
@@jonathananstett784 Fr oma Roman Catholic point of view, Christian Freedom prevails UNTIL the Church makes a definitive declaration of dogma after which the matter is settled. For instance, prior to the canon being finalized, there was back and forth as to which books were included, even among the fathers. But after a consensus is reached within the Church, questioning the canon was no longer an option. Same with the Sabbath. The working out of defined doctrines within the Church is often a contentious process over centuries sometimes - like finalizing the canon. Why so messy? Because Christ chose to deputize flesh and blood people to be His church and to teach His Word. He did not promise a new set of scriptures as a stand-alone guide that anyone can build their church around. The bible was written by the singular Church of Christ for the Church. He promised to abide with His church as it marches through history to the end of time. For the RC then, it is not just a pope unilaterally deciding this or that. So this present Pope with his problematic statements is a transient slice of time while the Church that Christ left behind is everlasting. Regarding the decree to compel veneration of icons, that was a very specific response to the intense battles - theological and political - which involved the powers of the day. It really tore through the Church of the time. It was authoritative but time-bound in practice. So no-one has compelled anyone for the longest time ever since the iconoclastic controversies were over a thousand years ago. The Church had declared that the veneration of icons is licit and the matter is settled. Most RC are not even aware it was part of a recognized ecumenical council.
@@AL_YZWe could use this argument for anything though, we could argue that the church politics, elders, fathers, priests, bishops, etc. are ALL against judaizers, and that christian freedom has done away with it. Why not? We can all agree a major reason for the very first politics of the church was not meant to be permanent, otherwise it would still exist as it was(it does not). The political structure of the church has changed much since the book of Acts, even since the days of the fathers, and as seen by Paul and Peter, much of what the apostles did was to stop judaizers. So who is Rome, who is Alexandria, who is Antioch to say we have freedom to overcome the prohibition on icon veneration?
WELP! I was seriously considering Orthodoxy, but this was extremely insightful into this issue which was ONE of the big ones preventing me from changing to it. Wow... great video, Gavin
Read St. John of Damascus writings (and the story of his life) and the writings of St. Theodore the Studite on the matter of iconography. Look up events surrounding the Hawaiian icon of the Theotokos of Iveron and Kursk root icon. The lives of the Orthodox Saints are key in helping to understand these matters. (Emphasizing the importance of the lived experience of the life of the Church in the Saints throughout history. - the Gospel lived out in the lives of the Saints.) Keep going Peter, slow and steady.
As a Protestant enquiring into Orthodoxy, the dogma surrounding icon veneration arising from the Seventh Ecumenical Council has been a significant barrier to entry. I've actually grown to admire the practice of icon veneration, and see how it could add value to a Christian's life. But I can't see myself agreeing that it is a necessity for sanctification/theosis, or that any Christian failing to venerate icons is anathema to the Church. I was initially drawn to EO because I thought it preserved the liturgy and worship that Christ taught the apostles, but I have found the arguments for 1st century icon veneration to be severely lacking. Thanks for all you do, looking forward to watching this!
Think hard and very carefully before you make that leap. My son and cycled through the EO church. I was excommunicated shortly after my baptism, and drove 16 hours one way to see the bishop about it. He wasn't overly concerned,. So I got my critical thinking cap back on, and soon saw EO for what it is- a remnant of the church of Constantine. Once you ask the right questions, and look for biblical answers, you will see that the EO church is a false church. Here is a simple question. How are local churches governed in the NT. By a separate priestly caste? Or by elders/ pastors? That we are adopted sons and daughters of God under the new covenant is key to understanding the differences. I have attempted to communicate with my former priests since I returned to Protestantism (I am Baptist) and have received only one response: they will only talk with me once I return to the EO church, and not otherwise. They have been good for their word. So much for the love of Christ, eh?
@@1Immanuel8 I don't think that it's a false church - the question for me is whether it alone is the "One True Church". Out of curiosity - why were you excommunicated shortly after your baptism?
@@nathanielchristian7027 I inquired into Orthodoxy for a year. The main question is if you believe it is the only One True Church, like you said. I could never believe that. I've seen the fruit of the spirit in many other churches, and claims your church is the only one is always based on very shaky epistemology at best. Just reeks of institutional propaganda to me. I'm now very happily Anglican, we take the most reasonable answer to that question.
I really don't get it - all of this veneration of various saints and supplications made to them. When you have access to boldly approach the Creator of our Universe (Christ!), then why would we ever attempt to have our burdens met by some mere mortal underling. It's as if I have some very important issue with a company over some serious mistake they've made with my account - am I going to sort it out with some powerless young clerk behind a counter, or would I not seek out the company owner that can provide both the solution AND has the authority and ability to see that it's taken care of? With Catholics, the CC even teaches that Mary is a "co-redemptrix" with Jesus - as she supposedly operates alongside Jesus to hear and address our concerns. WHAT, does Jesus somehow need HELP in getting things done? Is He not enough or is somehow lacking? It's truly inconceivable that one wouldn't first beseech Jesus!
Those are excellent reflections; we refer to the current proprietor of the universe and - the heavenly realm for - literally - Christ's sake: Jesus Christ! To the glory of His Father, to be sure. Thank you Kind regards Kim
Colossians 1:24: “Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church.”
@@glennjapson6234 This is a verse I'd never considered much, but you need to squint *really* hard to connect this to icon veneration. Paul is talking about martyrdom, and to apply it to anything else would require some clear allusions or parallels at least.
Seraphim Hamilton has 4 or 5 videos, each about an hour long directly addressing this video. I recommend watching those for a DEEP dive into why Ortlund is mistaken.
@andyontheinternet5777 I'm too sinful and ignorant to begin to explain. St. John of Damascus wrote timeless treatises in the 8th century that eviscerated the iconoclasts of his time and do the same to the iconoclasts of today. I suggest you read his works and judge for yourself and don't let PhD's with an agenda tell you what and how to think. Just google "St John Damascene on Holy Images and Project Gutenberg"
@andyontheinternet5777 I'm too sinful and ignorant to explain with precision. St. John of Damascus wrote timeless treatises in the 8th century that refuted the iconoclasts of his day and does the same to the iconoclasts of today. I suggest that you read them and judge for yourself and don't let PhD's with an agenda tell you how and what to think. Search "St John Damascene on Holy Images and Project Gutenberg" and click the top result.
@@matthew7491 I'm not going to spend hours refuting the broader message in the video. Others have done that work adnausem. Something Gavin continues to dodge btw. I doubt even if I did spend the hours to collect all relevant information you'd even bother reading it.
Wow I'm so happy I discovered you through your recent debate with Trent Horn. I've been watching a lot of Catholics recently and have been deeply moved by the history of the church, which is (obviously) mostly Catholic. Your defense of protestantism is refreshing in the sense that there is deep rooted love but also dissent from later Catholic practices which seems was the sentiment of the original protestants toward the Catholic Church. Excited to watch more of your videos defending protestantism!
Malgré sa bonne volonté, il amalgame les idoles païennes et les représentations du Christ, de la Vierge Marie et des Saints. Dieu sait qui ces images pieuses représentent et, dans sa grande pédagogie, parce-que Il comprend le besoin humain de pouvoir voir et toucher, nous permet de prier avec ces images qui fixent notre attention sur le divin. Dieu a permis l'utisation de signes, de symboles et de sculptures: l'Arche de l'Alliance, le serpent d'airain dans le désert (préfigurant le Christ sur la croix), la croix peintes sur les portes des croyants en Egypte pour signifier à l'ange de la mort d'épargner les habitants de cette maison (les plaies d'Égypte).
The RCC not following the 2nd commandment made me question the Roman Catholic Church. My relationship with God has become stronger and clear since I have turned to following God's word!
You demand that the RCC observe the second commandment: "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above." (Actually, no one observes that. You interpret it loosely based on your own authority and even Gavin does not prohibit images as such but rather with veneration of images. Now, Muslims. THEY are really observant of that prohibition.) Yet if you are like the vast majority of protestants, you do not observe the 4th, the Sabbath. The 4th Commandment: "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy" That is supposed to be forever hence the Jews to this day. In fact, the observance of the Sabbath is even more foundational to Judaism. Jesus Christ observed the Sabbath. You know who made the day of worship the first day of the week (Sunday) instead of the Sabbath? The Church. If the Church did not have the authority to basically cross out the 4th commandment, then you are in deep trouble. Because you know that to not observe one part is to fail to observe the entirety of the law. “For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all." (James 2:10-11) What make you of Christian Freedom which frees Christians from the strictures of the Law? You and Gavin are Judaizing.- requiring observance of a Jewish prohibition.
Peace. How exactly does the "Church" not follow the Second(First) commandment? And the implication that you did not have God's Word or that you couldn't follow it while IN the Church makes one question in what "church" you were. And as an aside, Sola Scriptura is not taught in the Bible, (and no, not even in 2Tim). But, if you are interested in learning the answers to the questions that were not answered for you, I am here. Blessings.
I see Protestantism as a pursuit of the truth not a pursuit of one’s own private judgment. Protestants DO acquiesce to something: The leading of the Holy Spirit as found in the Word of God. (John 17:17)
Yes except that’s nonsense and just another way of saying “my opinion.” Ever noticed every single branch of Protestantism claims they have the holy spiritual leading them to truth but all claim different things? It’s because that’s a nonsensical claim people use to act like whatever they personally believe the text says, based on their opinion was from the Holy Spirit and therefore right
With all due respect, how can that statement coexist with so many divisions, and not just on "the small things" There are major divides on eternal security, baptism, whether Catholics are Christians, etc.
Hard to explain the Spirit leading into thousands of denominations. Seraphim Hamilton has 4 or 5 videos, each about an hour long directly addressing this video. I recommend watching those for a DEEP dive into why Ortlund is mistaken.
"I see Protestantism as a pursuit of the truth not a pursuit of one’s own private judgment. " Protestant is built with Sola Scriptura as its foundation, who's 16th centuries fruit was, is, and shall ever be, doctrinal chaos, confusion and division. The pursuit of truth completely elusive as it's foundation by definition is one's private, fallible and unauthoritative interpretation of scripture. Yet Christ himself made numerous promises regarding the Truth: Christ is the head of his Church (Col 1: 18) Christ''s Church is the pillar of truth (1 Tim 3: 15) Christ's Church is the bulwark of truth. (1 Tim 3: 15) Christ's Church is where the manifold wisdom of God is made known. (Eph 3: 10) *Christ PROMISED to lead it to ALL Truth.* (Jn 16: 13) Christ PROMISED that he would NEVER leave it. (Mt 28: 20) Christ PROMISED that the gates of hell would not prevail (it will not teach doctrinal error) ; (Mt 16: 18) Why not trust Christ?
Hi, I was considering orthodoxy but was wary of the icons and Mary veneration. Thank you for putting this together and on TH-cam. I don’t know why orthodoxy is so attractive to me but now I see that I need to stand guard against the enticement of things like it. Thanks again!
This insistence on the second commandment is Judaizing The Judaizers were a faction of the Jewish Christians who regarded the Levitical laws of the Old Testament as still binding on Christians. They for instance, tried to enforce Jewish Sabbath and circumcision upon the Gentile converts. In Gavin's case, he tries to enforce the second commandment - his interpretation of it - on Christians. Of course Protestants totally ignore the fourth/Sabbath commandment. That doesn't work. "..whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." James 2:10 What make you of Christian freedom? Christ freed us from the legalistic aspects of the Law but doubled down on the internal moral law.
@Angismit Mary and icon veneration is something which troubles me also as a pro-orthodox Protestant. HOWEVER, Gavin teaches Calvinism, which means that God is a monster who condemns people to either heaven or hell for his own pleasure, and we have no ability to even alter our fate. There are ways to reconcile Mary and Icon veneration (Luke 1:48) "For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed", and I've never heard a Protestant call Mary blessed. But something which is irreconcilable is the predestination to either heaven or hell. Gavin is an incredibly charitable and humble man, but how anyone believes in that doctrine of devils is beyond me.
@@kevinjypiter6445God is holier than you think and man is more wicked than you think. God does not owe anyone mercy or grace. If He never saved a soul from the penalty of their sins, then He would still be just and perfect.
@@kevinjypiter6445 that would be a red herring: many Protestants aren’t Calvinist. We consider the Arminian Protestants brothers and sister, we don’t anathema them from the church like papists and eos do for refusing image veneration.
I am pro-orthodox but this brother is dropping bombs in this video, I am very taken back by this information. I am protestant but have been swaying more and more towards Orthodoxy over the years but I can't deny that this video is very powerful in regards to the use of icons. I do not see how this can be refuted by anyone, it is very well sourced.
There is still a problem that even if you don’t have physical images, you always have mental images. I think the problem isn’t as simple as looking at the history seeing some things you don’t like, interpreting some texts in a very particular way and concluding it was wrong. I also think it is quite idealistic to believe art was ‘just for decorative and educational purpose’.
@@brambes1804I’ve thought the same thing. Since the illiteracy rate was so high in that time. Art was used to tell the story. I don’t see why having religious art back then is proof of icon veneration
Seraphim Hamilton has 4 or 5 videos, each about an hour long directly addressing this video. I recommend watching those for a DEEP dive into why Ortlund is mistaken.
@@brambes1804 One can according to EO theology not have mental images. And from personal experience it is quite a simple thing to pray without picturing the Lord or the Heavens or anything like it. It's not idealistic. It fits the best evidence of the intention of the Christian leaders. Whether some ill-informed person decided to venerate the art as a relic of his former pagan practice is not particularly relevant.
I'm a new-ish Christian. When I recently came across EO I became enthralled with the idea of it being the original church and its beautiful ceremonies. But as I've been researching EO over the past month or so, I paused when I became aware of the venerations of saints. The book of Judges makes it clear that mankind has a propensity for worshipping things and other people, and makes it VERY clear this does not please the LORD! Twenty minutes into this video has cleared this all up for me (I watched the whole thing though) and has ended my romance with EO. Thank you!
I’ve been on the same journey, and feel as though this video has served the same purpose for me as well. Thank you, Gavin, for quite literally doing The Lord’s work.
I did the same thing last year when I was only a few months into my walk with Christ. Now after almost 2 years, I've been regularly attending an Orthodox Parish for about a month and I love it. It's very common within the Protestant world to get hung up on the idea that since Christ is the only mediator between God and man - our spiritual lives are a individual, single-line connection between us and God. Orthodoxy sees things differently. We believe that God's grace is superabundant it flows out through the ones He has glorified - the saints, and especially through His mother, by whose obedience bore the One who would conquer death and reconcile us to God. Our worship is reserved for God alone, but we recognize that His grace pours out into those people in our lives, both those here on earth, and those who reside in the heavenly kingdom, and that we can call on them to be vessels of the grace that has it source in Him alone. Also is God not "over all, in all and through all."? (Ephesians 4)
@@ssseth9321how does one become a vessel of unmerited favor? How can unmerited favor be carried like water or cargo? We can surely supply it to others from ourselves, but how can we carry it on behalf of another? And I would suggest Christ being our only mediator is literally what the scripture teaches. One can participate in a spiritual life with others while only having one mediator.
This is probably one of your best videos. I’m a Protestant but there are so few Protestants out there making reliable content that seriously addresses the issue of Icon Veneration. Your reliance on primary sources is great and scathing to the RC/EO position (imo). I’m curious - do lutheran and Anglicans that use crucifixes and icons in worship/devotion look at this similarly to RC/EO?
Anglican here. My priest laid it out like this: "We affirm the christological definitions of the Nicea II." We do have a crucifix and most if not all the parish bows to it as a symbol of Christ the King. When I voiced my queasiness I was assured I don't have to bow and that I should not go against my conscience. After much prayer and research I now do bow. I also have a few icons gifted to me by a friend. I occasionally kiss them as a show of affection for Christ and gratitude towards the saints who are praying for us. But all this is personal devotion not mandated.
@@EloSportsTalk As a Lutheran, yes, some churches use crucifixes, but many do not. For those that use them, we see them as symbolic of what we call the Theology of the Cross. They remind us of the salvation offered to us all through the death and resurrection of Christ. But we do not venerate them. Call it an object lesson and a reminder of the reality of Christ's sacrifice for us.
Lutheran here. There is a bright red line between contemplating a crucifix/icon/religious art and bowing to, kissing, or otherwise venerating that object. Very few Lutheran churches will ever allow bowing to or kissing a crucifix.
Looking at God's command in the Decalogue, the command is not against making images per se, but against making images "to bow down to them or serve them".
I know fruits of the spirit is patience. But I don't know why for the life of me I can't stand the waffling on this issue for people that were never compelled to worship these images. A wicked and adulterous generation demands a sign. Why does one have to convince oneself that they are in true worship with the aide of art and images, smells and ancient relics? That is a pagan inclination.
@@Vanpotheosisyes. I do not approve of nativity scenes and crucifixes (and I mean crucifixes specifically, not crosses. Crucifixes being a cross with a depiction of Christ on it. I say this for those who might not know the difference).
Dr. Ortlund, i have always loved your videos even if I'm quite a bit more liberal than you on several issues (I'm Episcopalian). But this has got to be your best presentation yet. Like a lot of people in the West I have long had this vague sense that Orthodoxy was "closer" to early Christianity than other Christian branches, and that Orthodoxy had remained essentially unchanged since ancient times. (As an Episcopalian I would add that "unchanging" is not always a good thing!) But i must thank you for exploding that ignorant assumption of mine. Icon veneration is indeed quite clearly a provable doctrinal change.
Dr Ortlund, I've been following your TH-cam channel for a couple of years now and you've made a lot of great videos but I've got to say that this one is, hands down, the best you've ever done.
@@TruthUnites This video came at the perfect time, because I’m going to be debating an Eastern Orthodox priest at the end of the month about whether prayer to Mary and the scenes, and their images and icons, are a form of worship or not. While we may not really get deep into the veneration of images, the focus is going to be on veneration of Mary and the Saints themselves. Do you have a video that focuses specifically on that? I’m planning on watching this video in the meantime. God bless you and your ministry as always Dr. Ortlund, 👍
Thank you for putting this together. May I request one thing? Could you put this into the format of an article with full quotes of these church fathers and citations? An hour-long video is a big ask for those I want to show this to, but this video is one of the best resources on this topic I've come across. Please turn this into an article. This need to be seen far and wide. I myself am a former Catholic, and I am deeply concerned that there seems to be a trend of Protestants who have been converted to Orthodoxy or to Catholicism. Catholics and Orthodox are far better at attacking iconoclasm/aniconism than Protestants are at defending it.
@@TruthUnites Excellent video, great content with historic references, looking forward to your forthcoming book on this subhect. I am a exRoman catholic, now Born Again Christian, though family is still RC, praying for them to move away from this idolatry and legalism of RC. God bless you for imparting the truth. From: Mumbai, India.
Yes Berkana totally agree. That would be a great help to Catholics like me who would wish to point out some things the good pastor may wish to change. Thanks. Thanks for the suggestion!
Thanks Dr. Ortlund, this is one of your best videos so far. Thank you for being loving yet at the same time telling the truth. Also thank you, for being very professional in your quotations, one can see, that you truly don’t try to misrepresent anyone and that you do both, following your conscience and staying true to church history. 😊
This isn't true to history - it's a terrible example of lack of understanding about idolatry. If you venerate your Bible, are you guilty of idolatry? You can't venerate the Bible without providing for an allowance to venerate the cross, icons, people, or any other sanctified offering to God or gift from God. It's tantamount to Manichaeism, which is a heresy that material things are intrinsically evil. Any material thing can be made into an idol - so people driven by pride declared all material things evil. That's a heresy. Same thing with Icons.
Seraphim Hamilton has 4 or 5 videos, each about an hour long directly addressing this video. I recommend watching those for a DEEP dive into why Ortlund is mistaken.
Thank-you Gavin as a Protestant considering Orthodoxy for a while now. I've recently started looking more deeper into this subject it makes 0 sense when regarding scripture. Godbless you and your family ❤
Hi PermaFrost77 - I really like your “name”, as I grew up in The North…but…even more so - the thumbnail of your “puppy” is precious! I have been blessed to have a Husky, Malamute, Akita, even a half wolf/husky, as well as, some precious smaller breeds like a Silky Yorkshire Terrier, Shi-Tsu, and many other pups, along with rescuing wildlife when need be! There is a special place in my heart for all glorious creatures! Have a great week!🇨🇦☺🇨🇦
@@theodosios2615 You were probably never rooted and grounded in the Orthodox spiritual tradition. The deified saints trump modern critics and academics who limit theology to a purely academic thing, but have too much of the world and devil in them.
@@dustindustindontworry-jz8dh Their purpose was to get the Gospel message out. Orthodoxy has a different metaphysics than the western heterodox systems. I don't accept your assumption that iconography has to be explicit in the apostles. But we do know that St. Luke painted the first icon.
I’ve always been a Protestant that wanted to convert to Catholicism with my friends or Orthodox. But every time I started to dig deeper into it I realized I just like the sincerity of the aesthetics of those churches and the quietness of heart that they invoke when you enter them. Even the discipline of the rosary seemed like a helpful tool for my wandering mind. BUT I never converted and have realized I am as Protestant as they come. When I read the Bible and gospels Catholicism and Orthodoxy just seemed so far away from the flavor of the simple purity of the New Testament. To top it off I’m an artist and I have always struggled with the purpose of my art and Christian art and afraid of creating idol like images. I’m very wary of it and continually have to ask God why he gave me this gift and its highest purpose, how to use it for him without it becoming more than that.
Thanks so much for addressing this with so much documentation. I was once led astray by arguments in favor of icon veneration but I have to admit I could never fully embrace it at the heart or conscience level. Although I know that many who are in favor of icon veneration will have a comeback for everything you’ve presented and that they will ultimately appeal to the “consensus of the fathers” and to their ecclesiology, I am convinced they have erred on this subject. Thanks for speaking the truth in love.
Gavin ortlund, thank you for the video! Should I destroy icons or statues of Jesus? I am confused of the proper Biblical stance. Should I keep a picture of Christ? I do not venerate them but it is decorative/a reminder of Christ.
@@michaelwhitman9937 If you believe they’re a 2 commandment violation, you could. If they lead you astray to worship them, destroy them as Hezekiah destroyed the Bronze Serpent (2 Kings 18:4).
@@michaelwhitman9937at's between you and God. If it starts affecting you then put them away. I grew up near a Catholic lady's house that had giant crosses everywhere and crowds would gather on Friday 13th because visions of Mary would appear to her. That's the context I have with icons and saints. To me, crosses and pictures should be considered like a flag or logo. You wouldn't set fire to your country's flag but you're not gonna build an altar to it. I personally don't want a cross in my room but on a Bible or Christian phone app, or in church is fine.
I don't think this video will make a person protestant. A person that does not think the Bible is infallible or even correct, will not suddenly think: Oh, icon veneration is an accretion, I should be a protestant Christian. I agree with Trent Horn on that point. For protestantism to be true Protestant claims need to be proven, disproving catholic/orthodox claims does not do that.
@@georgwagner937Protestantism doesn’t have to be proven true, all it does is rely on the Bible. All we care about is that the Bible is true. And yeah, that can definitely cause differences in belief and practice, but not in orthodox beliefs - those are not “Christian.” But if we disprove Catholicism / Orthodoxy, that is, any of the “infallible” portions, the whole point of authority falls. Therefore, the church is not the only authority. And those who disagree with the authority are… drum roll… protesters. Or, Protestants. So if you want to be a Christian, but reject the Catholic / Orthodox views, you can easily be a Protestant. Anyways, I am not against Catholic / Orthodox Christians. But I don’t think their authority as the only church (not necessarily “true,” - I think all three branches are true) is accurate.
@@Tornadospeed10Asserting that if orthodoxy is false means that Christianity is false is just that - an assertion. Anyways, I never said orthodoxy or the Orthodox Church wasn’t true. I think it is. I don’t think it is infallible in every aspect though. For example, the assumption of Mary could have never happened, and the Orthodox Church would still be true. Fallible men stating that something is true when it isn’t doesn’t stop the scripture from remaining true. I’m not saying all traditions outside the Bible are false, but I think some are false.
Hi Shelley! If I may add to the conversation. Even God Himself commanded images to be made - the statues of cherubim that go on either side of the tabernacle and the bronze serpent (which when people looked at it, they were healed from their snake bites) to name a couple. God made us to be body AND spirit, not just spirit. As such, the LORD comes to us in both spiritual and physical ways. Think of Jesus - He healed by His Word, and by mixing His saliva with dirt and putting it on a man's eyes. He gave large crowds bread and fish to keep them sustained. A woman was healed through touching the tassel of His cloak. He physically died on the Cross for us. He instituted the Eucharist - we get to actually receive the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus, truly Present in the Eucharist, into our bodies. Wow! What an amazing gift. God made us with bodies, and He declared it very good. Our bodies are not bad. Images are not banned - graven images are. Looking at/having an image of Jesus is not only not harmful, it's powerful and beautiful! I encourage you to look into the Catholic Faith - good resources can be found on Ascension Presents (TH-cam, the Ascension App) and Catholic Answers (website and TH-cam). God bless! - A Catholic Christian
Just wanted to say this has been a great channel. It has caused me to question why I believe what I believe. At the outset this is a scary thing it has caused me to look deeper at church history, the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and the reformation. It is all so much deeper and more complicated than I ever thought.
It turns out the RCC and EO are being ahistorical interesting; they traditions are in fact hardly apostolic and had to “develop” and more often than not unbiblical
Gavin, I love the manner in which you speak, and I must add, I really did enjoy hearing you speak with an extra tone of boldness in this video. It was great. Keep up the good work. These videos are always worth listening to.
Although I respect people who prefer a Protestant path, my christian life bloomed when I joined the Orthodox Church. Icons are central in my worship. Like music and Liturgy. I worship the Father , Son and Holy Spirit-that’s it. Don’t understand the confusion.
The true church is the Bible believing church, not a church that puts their traditions above the Holy Bible, “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.”◄ Exodus 20:4
@@findev6330 The true church is the church established by Christ, beginning with Pentecost in 33 AD, which is the Orthodox. The Bible was not canonized until your 397AD..Christians existed well before that. Tradition precedes the Bible, but is not superior to it. The Bible must be interpreted within the context of tradition, that's how you avoid many heresies and liberal nonsense that non-denominational and mega churches fall for.
@@LaRevolution0 The church that hid the Bible for a thousand years and burned people alive for owning the scripture in their native language has truth, don’t make me laugh!
Gavin! Tremendous work on putting this video together. You have challenged and given me (an orthodox Inquirer) much to think about. I would be very interested in listening in on a conversation between you and Jonathan Pageau about the symbolism and use of Iconography. From watching him speak on the matter, I feel that I have learned that the reason for appealing to the saints for forgiveness and other matters, as opposed to directly receiving from the hands of God is because of the participatory nature of God's Kingdom. It is not that we need their mediation but that Saints are welcomed to participate in "the divine council" and other roles as an act of God's love. In this way, love ascends up and back down the hierarchy in a beautiful harmonious fashion that unites Heaven and Earth. Veneration of the Icon allows us to enter this reality and one that is more truly understood through experience. I have found this idea of "participation" most powerfully expressed in the theme of the Son of Man, Genesis, and the biblical narrative as a whole. To be honest the info presented here is causing much cognitive dissonance and doubt. I have many experiences that tell me that venerating icons is a beautiful thing but cannot deny the alarming info presented here. In moments like this I find the only thing I can turn to is Christ in prayer. Should I set my home icon of Christ and the saints aside despite it helping orient my life around Him? I don't know the answer to that. I have been telling myself that the fruits of the spirit would be my litmus test for truth. In other words, has God made me more like him or less through communing with the saints? I am still waiting to see. Perhaps Idolatry has more to do with the heart then the action. I pray for discernment and ask that you would pray for me too. Thank you for your faithfulness.
You don’t need to remove the icons in your home, religious art can Be greatly edifying. The difference is whether we use art for devotion or for actual worship and for the liturgy
Hi Matthew! If I may add to the conversation. Even God Himself commanded images to be made - the statues of cherubim that go on either side of the tabernacle and the bronze serpent (which when people looked at it, they were healed from their snake bites) to name a couple. God made us to be body AND spirit, not just spirit. As such, the LORD comes to us in both spiritual and physical ways. Think of Jesus - He healed by His Word, and by mixing His saliva with dirt and putting it on a man's eyes. He gave large crowds bread and fish to keep them sustained. A woman was healed through touching the tassel of His cloak. He physically died on the Cross for us. He instituted the Eucharist - we get to actually receive the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus, truly Present in the Eucharist, into our bodies. Wow! What an amazing gift. God made us with bodies, and He declared it very good. Our bodies are not bad. Images are not banned - graven images are. Looking at/having an image of Jesus is not only not harmful, it's powerful and beautiful! I encourage you to look into the Catholic Faith - good resources can be found on Ascension Presents (TH-cam, the Ascension App) and Catholic Answers (website and TH-cam). God bless! - A Catholic Christian
What an awesome video. I knew next to nothing about this topic yesterday and now I feel like I know so much, yet I’ve barely scratched the surface of how much knowledge there is on the topic. I feel like so much knowledge is knowing what you don’t know
If I may add to the conversation. Even God Himself commanded images to be made - the statues of cherubim that go on either side of the tabernacle and the bronze serpent (which when people looked at it, they were healed from their snake bites) to name a couple. God made us to be body AND spirit, not just spirit. As such, the LORD comes to us in both spiritual and physical ways. Think of Jesus - He healed by His Word, and by mixing His saliva with dirt and putting it on a man's eyes. He gave large crowds bread and fish to keep them sustained. A woman was healed through touching the tassel of His cloak. He physically died on the Cross for us. He instituted the Eucharist - we get to actually receive the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus, truly Present in the Eucharist, into our bodies. Wow! What an amazing gift. God made us with bodies, and He declared it very good. Our bodies are not bad. Images are not banned - graven images are. Looking at/having an image of Jesus is not only not harmful, it's powerful and beautiful! I encourage you to look into the Catholic Faith - good resources can be found on Ascension Presents (TH-cam, the Ascension App) and Catholic Answers (website and TH-cam). God bless! - A Catholic Christian
This was great. I'm reading up on my Protestant history and it is really eye-opening. Ancient history is one of those areas you need to actually have the language chops for though, so I'm glad this is available.
Martin Luther sure did made a big old mess. His teaching deceived millions who have absolutely no clue as to how their religion was formed an alcoholic mentally unstable Catholic priest that hated the Jew, mocked the word of God, and broke his vows. I bet 99% of all Protestants have never read his sermon "The Jews & his Lies". All Protestant Churches and denomination can be traced directly to either Horny King Henry the 8th who broke off from the Catholic Church to commit adultery, or to Luther the drunk. And while we're at it, the vast majority Protestants couldn't tell you where the Bible came from to save their lives. Yet these trolls think they are Masters of Scripture & the only ones that are saved. Don't believe me? Read their comments.
If I may add to the conversation. Even God Himself commanded images to be made - the statues of cherubim that go on either side of the tabernacle and the bronze serpent (which when people looked at it, they were healed from their snake bites) to name a couple. God made us to be body AND spirit, not just spirit. As such, the LORD comes to us in both spiritual and physical ways. Think of Jesus - He healed by His Word, and by mixing His saliva with dirt and putting it on a man's eyes. He gave large crowds bread and fish to keep them sustained. A woman was healed through touching the tassel of His cloak. He physically died on the Cross for us. He instituted the Eucharist - we get to actually receive the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus, truly Present in the Eucharist, into our bodies. Wow! What an amazing gift. God made us with bodies, and He declared it very good. Our bodies are not bad. Images are not banned - graven images are. Looking at/having an image of Jesus is not only not harmful, it's powerful and beautiful! I encourage you to look into the Catholic Faith - good resources can be found on Ascension Presents (TH-cam, the Ascension App) and Catholic Answers (website and TH-cam). God bless! - A Catholic Christian
I was a Protestant who became Orthodox back in 2010. After your vidoes and teachings, and my own very long study of ecclesiastical history, I have decided to leave Orthodoxy, and follow Christ according to Sacred Scripture. I am so glad that Christ used your ministry to challenge me to ask more questions and do more research...I am now what my former Church would call a heretic. Amen.
The best part of Protestantism is that you can still affirm that your Orthodox friends are a part of Christ’s church! You can still believe they are saved! The Church of Christ just got much bigger for you - it now contains Orthodox, Protestant, and Catholic followers of Jesus :) And you are free to keep all of the practices, traditions, and elements of your Orthodox church that you found to be Christ-honoring and reflecting God’s goodness. Hopefully you can teach us, the rest of your Protestant brethren, some of the good things you learned in the Orthodox church that are worth sharing!
@@scopeguy you don't have to agree on every piece of doctrine to be saved, or even to be in the same church. Within the Catholic or Orthodox churches there are massive disagreements over doctrine.
@@repentantrevenant9776 sorry differences inside and between Catholic and EO are miniscule compared to the differences just between different Protestants. Catholics specifically have a magisterium that can settle disputes. Some Protestants say homosexuality is fine, or divorce is fine, or numerous other things that are pretty clearly laid out as prohibited if you're not reading the text with a bias. Also, Protestants differ on soteriology, justification, as well as ecclesiology in ways that would have been foreign to early Christians. If you can just go to another church that agrees with your beliefs, that's not a religion, that's just a social club.
When you study the history around Roman Catholicism and its epistemology, it seems very clear that they have made things up as they went along to preserve their power structure.
The canon he quotes are from catholic post schism and not Orthodox. He’s giving a bias perspective not even from the original council. Ask yourself how many countries were invaded by Protestants and Catholics and how many cultures were decimated then ask yourself how many times the Orthodox committed such acts. You will know them by their fruits.
@@PatronSaintSpyridon Peace. Your history is a bit skewed to say the least. The Orthodox were part of the Crusades, and were responsible for the Massacre of the Latins prior to the Sack of Constantinople. The Orthodox also murdered the wife of Manuel I Komnenos, their own empress. Please... AND the Canon was set at the Council of Hippo in 393. That same canon the Catholic Church uses today. It is the Orthodox who are in schism since they are NOT in union with Peter (see Mt 16:16), and establish their own Apostolic missions and juristictions apart from Peter. I pray that one day we can be one, as Christ is One.
@@JD-sj1zn The Orthodox, as Pope John Paul II stated clearly, have most dutifully kept to the authentic traditions of the Apostles - we have never been in Schism as your excommunication in 1054 was invalid, but since then your See has clearly walked away from the rest of the Church and has caused so much trouble with innovation that Protestantism is squarely your responsibility. Do not throw stones in your own glass house.
@@dankmartin6510 Not being in union with Peter is schism. Setting up Apostolic missions and jurisdictions apart from Peter is schism. Teaching a doctrine apart from 1000 yrs of Tradition with regard to the Keys is schismatic- the very definition of schism. Study your revered Saints who all were in union with Peter BEFORE you throw your stones, sir.
Yes, everyone is commenting on it because it is astonishing that in this day and age, there are still iconoclasts. Unbelievable. Why are you so excited about this? Is this your way of living boldly for Christ?
If I may add to the conversation. Even God Himself commanded images to be made - the statues of cherubim that go on either side of the tabernacle and the bronze serpent (which when people looked at it, they were healed from their snake bites) to name a couple. God made us to be body AND spirit, not just spirit. As such, the LORD comes to us in both spiritual and physical ways. Think of Jesus - He healed by His Word, and by mixing His saliva with dirt and putting it on a man's eyes. He gave large crowds bread and fish to keep them sustained. A woman was healed through touching the tassel of His cloak. He physically died on the Cross for us. He instituted the Eucharist - we get to actually receive the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus, truly Present in the Eucharist, into our bodies. Wow! What an amazing gift! God made us with bodies, and He declared it very good. Our bodies are not bad. Images are not banned - graven images are. Looking at/having an image of Jesus is not only not harmful, it's powerful and beautiful! I encourage you to look into the Catholic Faith - good resources can be found on Ascension Presents (TH-cam, the Ascension App) and Catholic Answers (website and TH-cam). God bless! - A Catholic Christian
I have never seen a more even-handed and objective report on the questions surrounding icon veneration. I enter this as part of my research into Orthodox understandings and practices because I have Orthodox friends I love and want to understand. I watch their Orthodox videos done by some well-educated and clear-teaching priests. I've seen those priests use the language Dr. Ortlund attributes to them, which elevates my confidence in Dr. Ortlund as he does not mock or mischaracterize them. Thank you, Dr. Ortlund, for being gracious and sharing these scholarly videos with those of us who are seeking the truth.
The most shocking thing about the Church after the conversion of Constantine is the barbaric practices used to enforce church teaching, i.e. the gouging of eyes, cutting off noses, etc. In attempting to enforce correct theology they forgot correct morality.
Much of the violence was used by the effort to stamp out icons. Some historians think more Christians were killed by a “Christian“ emperor to stamp out icons.
But it wasn't through he conveniently ignored the evidence in support. Appeals to a few heretics and ignores the ppl who gave him the scriptures venerated icons.
@@noobitronius baseless? Tell me who did he appeal to in regards to evidence of early church? I will wait for your response. When you list them out I think you will see my piint.
Wow, after this I am seriously considering taking the Protestant reformation seriously, currently an Orthodox catechumen, I realized lately that I didn't give Protestantism an honest enough consideration so I watched this video. I had a large misconception that Protestantism had no patristic backing, thank you for this video!
This is exactly the reason why my mom converted from Catholic to Protestan before I was even born! she didn´t have all these knowledge of course, but she had the holly spirit to make her extremely uncomfortable with icon veneration. Thank you mom!
There was nothing Holy about that spirit. Just a demon pushing her to worship herself. Of course she was already infested by a lot of other demons in the "catholic" church. The Holy Spirit would never push anyone to reject the relics of the Saints before you. Your protest Christ and reject the Right Worship.
All I see from Protestants... is the fact that they can't admit they are wrong... and thats from a Protestant who's now Catholic. Anyone who truly searches the truth and can get over themselves and open their heart to the Holy Ghost- can not remain Protestant. There were bigger Catholic bashers than Dr Ortlund who are now Catholic.
Gavin- I found the structure of this video very helpful. Please do more like this!!! It’s excellent to see the topics from different angles like this. Very helpful. Honestly, too many of us don’t have the time or mental capacity to dig through all of this, so thank you for doing that for us. Thank you Gavin🙏🏻
@@TruthUnites Debunking catholicism I'm more blessed than mary Proof = Luke 11:27-28 27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” 28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen _________________________ CHRIST alone John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. ACTS 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” There is only One Mediator between God and men, LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus. Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by One Spirit to the Father John 15:5 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. _________________________ Work of God = John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” _________________________ 1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul. Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop _________________________ Jesus said Matthew 23:9 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father. Sad _________________________ Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God Use this to defeat the argument. Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” Matthew 12:46-50 46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” 48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”. Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.” John 19:26-27 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards). By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26. _________________________ We should not pray to apostles Romans 1:25 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Acts 10:25-26 25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.” Acts 14:15 15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them, Revelation 19:10 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” Revelation 22:8-9 8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God." Colossians 2:18 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26 26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Hebrews 7:25 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles _________________________ Apostles are allowed to marry, 1 Corinthians 9:1-5 1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord. 3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas? If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry? _________________________ The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic). 1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple 2)He sank down while walking on water 3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan 4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times 5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven 6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear 7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles. 8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land), 9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit), 10)King Soloman messed up, 11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11). Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up) 12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up. 13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20, 1 Corinthians, Galatians. 14) Apostle John when receiving Revelation worshiped an angel and the angel said "see you do not do that. Worship GOD" Revelation 22:8-9 If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up. _ Galatians 4:21-26 21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. Sarah is mother of all, Not mary Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics Changed the 10 commandments by deleting 2nd commandment, and dividing the 10th into 2 commandments. Also changing the real Saturday Sabbath to fake sunday sabbath.
Thank you for all the time it must have taken you to put together this video. Videos like this are so needed right now. So many Protestants have no roots and are falling away right now.
@@TJMcCarty Not according to that Word itself. Scripture says that the CHURCH is the bulwark and foundation of Truth. The Canon was not decided upon until the 4th century. What was the Authority in the first 4 centuries? The Church was. Who decided on the Canon of Scripture? The Church did. As Augustine, a Catholic bishop, stated, "I would not believe in Scripture, if not for the authority of the Catholic Church." As the Church, we DO believe that Scripture is the Word of God. But it is only because our Lord gave us an authoritative Church that told us it is.
@@TJMcCarty Consider looking at the Church for the first 16 centuries of Christendom, when there was only "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church". (Nicea I, 325AD)
@@TJMcCarty Peace. Also, in your search for an accurate Bible (yes, I read your post from 3 weeks ago), consider buying the Catholic Douay-Rheims version with notes by Bishop Challoner. Blessings.
Even when I was a catholic, my family who were generational Irish Catholics would correct me when I would call myself a Christian. They would say "we are Catholics, not Christians" Even the priest at the Canoga Park Perish corrected me the same. When I was 16 I converted and was born again by faith, and my eyes have been so opened to truth. I now totally agree with my parents, relatives and "Father" Larry in Canoga Park. Catholics are not Christians. I have now been a Pastor of a Baptist Church for almost 30 years and have been able to reach many of my family with the Gospel of Christ. My Father became a deacon of another Baptist church, my mother who tried to remain in the Catholic church after conversion eventually was removed from her membership of the church (Simi Valley) for asking to many questions, mainly about Baptismal regeneration and assurance of salvation.
I have known the position of the early church and in scripture on this matter for a long time. To hear a scholarly presentation of how we arrived from there to here is quite educational, thank you.
Seraphim Hamilton has 4 or 5 videos, each about an hour long directly addressing this video. I recommend watching those for a DEEP dive into why Ortlund is mistaken.
@@christianperspective9527 All that is addressed in the videos I referenced. Simply offering a much deeper dive into the topic than Gavin has put forth for those interested.
Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus, so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame. That’s a prayer to a saint. No other to look at it. It’s in the Bible
@@EmptyDisc1 Not really my point. yes it is a parable not didactic teaching. My point is that the protestant sensitivity to calling on other than God for succour or help doesnt seem to be shared by Jesus or his disciples or the jewish opponents listening to Jesus. Jesus included a detail in the story which would make a protestant cringe or have to somehow explain away as you have attempted to. Jesus didnt have to teach prayers to the saints, it was already something his audience was well familiar with hence the detail is included in His story, which is continued by the Orthodox Church. It is the protestant position that is a novelty. Honestly answer this question is there any circumstance in this life or the next (in the presence of God) in your paradigm, when I can say "Mother Mary, have mercy on me, send gabriel to assist me in my hour of suffering"? Your answer, in your paradigm would be that that is idolatry because no pleas or intercession can be directed to other than God. Well, looks like jesus and his audience dont share your sensitivities.
@@EmptyDisc1 again that’s not my point. I don’t believe Jesus is teaching prayers to the saints there. That would be absurd, it’s absurd because everyone just accepted it was a thing they did. The reason we can conclude that is no one is protesting idolatry there. But a Protestant would definitely protest and say that the story is an example of idolatry.
@@EmptyDisc1 if your point is that Jesus taught a blatantly false story. Then you’re delusional. A parable, a story communicates truth. Your position is that Jesus is incorporating idolatry into his story! Really? That’s where you want to go? Jesus incorporates elements that his audience is familiar with. Hence they are familiar with the idea of appealing to saints and patriarchs for succour. Something that you would categorize as idolatry. Basically the Protestant position would be that appealing for succour to other than God is idolatry. Again not a position Jesus and his followers shared. My point to put it succinctly is that the Protestant objects to appealing to Patriarchs and Saints for succour. That position is a novelty and contradicts Christs teachings.
@@EmptyDisc1 and this is the problem with sola scriptura. You assume that there is no context that Jesus lived in, no culture and no basic assumptions and traditions. But we can glean this from the parable easily. They didn’t react with shock and wonder at a person appealing to a patriarch for succour. That’s because it wasn’t a shock to them. However, we know it would be a shock to a Protestant to appeal to a saint or patriarch for succour and so we can see that the Protestant position is the novelty.
Reading was for the few: Historically, this is why religious art, icons, sculptures, and oral traditions have been so powerful. They communicate ideas and stories that transcend the written word, allowing people to feel a sense of presence and meaning. A painting or statue of a saint, for example, can convey a sense of reverence and inspiration without needing any words at all.
As a current catechumen in the EO, this helps A LOT! I havent started venerating yet, and deep down it feels 'off.' My priest said there is no hurry but I will eventually need to get there. I also question their exclusivism. Ill never be able to accept that. I think you gave me the solid reason why I wont crismate now. Thank you!!
@@MrWesford Gavin is bringing back the early Christians thought! You can go and bow to graven images, however, you don't have a defence for it. Go after the flesh!
That's a fallacy because it doesn't feel "off" for others. I can turn that around and say "It feels 'off' because Satan is trying to keep you away from the truth (Orthodox)"@@alishavogel7926
@@MrWesfordman what a sad response. The word was made flesh and dwelt amongst us. Died for us, was ressurrected and left us with Commandments. But confessing with your mouth that he is Lord and believing in your heart that God raised him and following his way is not enough! Nope! Cause if you dont kiss and honor these picture you will be kept away from Christ. I am fond of the EOC but man comments like yours are foul
I am now a practicing Catholic. Born Catholic, became a Baptist then searching Jesus more deeply I read and moved to Pentecostal then The Lord les me to the Catholic Church in 1998. I love the Mass and Eucharist. I however still love the Bible, I do not worship idols and deeply object to all the statues and recited prayer. I enjoy and love you talks. Agree in many ways. Thank you, Pastor Gavin
Why do you object to the statues and recited prayer, esp. the statues? I'm not Catholic, but I do love Catholic art. The stained glass, the statues and pictures are beautiful and serene depictions. I don't enjoy the style of Orthodox art though. They aren't serene and there is something austere about their style of artwork that I always found a bit depressing. The Catholic depictions are uplifting though.
@@evanspencer3632 I'm almost sure one of the councils would be anathematising her. Though from what I can tell by all the anathemas, a huge number of practicing Catholics would fall under this curse. It's really a terrible thing that the RCC declared these so much over too many of its sanctioned doctrines.
I feel like I see this kind of thing a lot. I could be misreading what you're saying, but I frequently see those who with Protestant background who have gravitated to Catholicism do so because they crave the structure of liturgy. I can admit to often being underwhelmed by the form of worship practiced in contemporary church environments, but I can't see how this would ever lead me toward stepping into a church environment that teaches such obviously false doctrines that are antithetical to core doctrines as outlined in scripture. To me, simply craving structure is an insufficient basis for embracing a church that not only promotes such doctrines, but anathematizes those who don't. Having spent substantial time in Latin America, I've observed firsthand how pervasive the veneration of images is as an aspect of Catholic practice, with shrines of Mary at the peak of countless mountains. I'm glad you appreciate Dr. Ortlund's analysis of the issue, but to me, from what I've seen, and what we see him saying, this is something that's central, not peripheral, when it comes to Catholic perception of what it means to be devoted in one's religious practice.
@@johnnythegringo8855 You can still get a structured, or high church liturgy on the protestant side too though. Anglicans, Lutherans and Presbyterians all have it. I wonder if it's the claim of apostolic succession and having infallible central doctrine?
That's not his point he understands they don't worship the icons but he is coming from a historical standpoint on the early church father's did not approve of this practice
It seems that a lot of protestants have to mis-represent or flat out lie about Catholicism. Then their followers dislike the church, not because of what the church is, but what they think it is. I guess it makes them feel justified for not being a part of the church?
@@craiganderson8569 I work with a devout catholic who believes this firmly. He was taught this by the clergy. Maybe you were not taught this and that's good but he didn't come to this conclusion by himself. Regardless, I consider you a brother in Christ and I have nothing against you. Let us worship our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus and his amazing sacrifice on this beautiful day. Peace be with you.
Seraphim Hamilton has 4 or 5 videos, each about an hour long directly addressing this video. I recommend watching those for a DEEP dive into why Ortlund is mistaken.
I see an interesting psychological parallel here to the doctrine of the Trinity. I talk to many Muslims, usually amicably, and no amount of effort explaining to them that our belief in the Trinity does not violate monotheism can alleviate their horror at what to them is plain and obvious polytheism - as well as idolatry in the worship of the man Jesus. They are unimpressed with subtle distinctions and terms like ousia, hypostasis, incarnation, etc. All that rationalizing, in their deeply intuitive estimation, just papers over pseudo-paganism, a denial of the unity of God and his exclusive right to worship. Many Protestants seem to have the same kind of experience with Christian iconography. No amount of explaining to them that our veneration of icons does not violate the right worship due to God can alleviate their horror at what to them is plain and obvious idolatry. They are unimpressed with our subtle theological distinctions or our pointing out how the Incarnation is itself an icon and changes the nature of our knowledge of God from natural reason and the O.T., etc. All that rationalizing, in their deeply intuitive estimation, just papers over pseudo-paganism and God‘s exclusive right to worship.
@Tennis Brah Theological and philosophical elaboration is precisely what happened in the case of sacred images. This is because the Christ Icon is not ultimately rooted in art or imagination, but in Incarnation. In the Old Testament, the rationale for the prohibition against images of a particular sort was that God had not shown himself to the Israelites. “You saw no form.” (Deuteronomy) In the New Covenant, God shows himself to the Church in the face of Christ. “If you’ve seen me you’ve seen the Father.” The Bride sees the face of the Bride Groom. She sees the form. This isn’t just a Christological matter. The telos of salvation is the vision of God himself. The Christ Icon points to the fact that God is ultimately drawing men, not just to a profound conceptualization of the truth in the abstract, as in religions like Islam or Maimonidian Judaism, but to the joy of looking at Him as he knows himself. “Then we will see face-to-face.”
@Tennis Brah I’m in complete agreement that there are biblical foundations for the ecclesial doctrine of the Trinity. But I don’t think that would impress a Muslim. He would just say that there is categorically no legitimate foundation for denying monotheism. So the Christian has to explain to the Muslim that however much trinitarian distinctions may seem to contradict monotheism, ultimately they don’t stand opposed to one another. And maybe even more pointedly, he would have to explain how, despite all the prohibitions against worshiping creatures in the Law, Christians can justify worshiping the man Jesus. To the Muslim this appears, and you have to grant its superficial appearance, a plain contradiction. I think this is very similar on a psychological level to the Catholic experience or the Orthodox experience of having to defend iconography to Protestants. To them the prohibition against making images of God for the purpose of worship is plainly contradicted by the Catholic/Orthodox practice of making images of God for the purpose of worship. But we would say the same thing to the Protestant that we would say to the Muslim, and frankly that the Protestant would say to the Muslim as well, which is that the Incarnation has radically changed things. We now worship a man from Nazareth. Prior to the Incarnation, that would have been idolatry. We now make images of the Holy One (because he has shown us his form) and venerate Him through them. Prior to the Incarnation, that would have been a violation of the commandment.
Excellent as always. I can’t wait for Michael Lofton’s response video. This is timely, as he recently put out a video defending Pope Francis for the Pachamama statue veneration. He shows a video of a woman referring to it as “our lady of the Amazon” in Spanish, and basically says that means it’s a depiction of Mary. I asked him in the comments if the statue was made with the intent of being Mary or if it was made as Pachamama and repurposed into Mary. I didn’t get into this, but I was trying to parse out what makes something a statue or icon worthy of veneration-is it intent of the person venerating, is it what it was made as, is it consecrated, etc. He replied that that is irrelevant to the accusation of idolatry, and that Catholics have long appropriated pagan elements into Christianity. I can’t see how venerating a representation of an Amazonian pagan goddess isn’t idolatry, but I’m sure he would respond that I’m incorrectly assuming something and that I should be more charitable.
Seraphim Hamilton has 4 or 5 videos, each about an hour long directly addressing this video. I recommend watching those for a DEEP dive into why Ortlund is mistaken.
I am a Protestant believer who makes pictures of Christ and the saints. I have often been told throughout my life that it’s wrong of me to make pictures like these mainly because of how Catholics and other “traditional” Christians treat such images. I never felt the temptation to bow down to my work or worship it. I know my pictures aren’t the real Jesus or saints, but representations of my interpretation of what I learn in the Bible. These pictures often help me remember important truths in Scripture. I have filled a shelf in my room with paper cutouts showing the life of Jesus Christ. They’re one of the first things I see every morning. I have seen guests’ jaws drop when they see the cutouts. It’s honestly amazing what God’s gifts can do. I can appreciate artwork as artwork, but if someone asks me to bow down to an icon of any biblical character, I would leave the place. That’s not for Christians to do. If people make artwork of Jesus and the saints for the purpose of veneration, I think they should stop, repent and never make such things again. I do acknowledge how frequent the temptation to idolatry is, but from my personal experience, it seems to me that most people’s idols are *themselves* . They idolise their own tastes, things that make them happy. This is why the command is given to deny the self, stay away from idols (after talking a lot about how friendship with the world is enmity with God), &c. I understand that idolatry in the NT has a broader scope than simply making portraits of funny characters and performing rituals/showing respect to them. Unfortunately, many who claim to be Christians do not seem to see the flaw in their logic about the distinction between bowing down to God and bowing down to pictures of who is supposed to be God or one of His servants. I think it’s okay to have pictures of Jesus in your home as decoration (like during Christmas when we make a Nativity scene) or reminders of Scripture, but it’s definitely wrong to do what our Catholic and Orthodox friends are doing with pictures.
I’m sure your art is beautiful. I agree with you 100% about the worshipping of oneself. I don’t know anyone that worships statues, but I sure know a lot who worship themselves.
Seraphim Hamilton has 4 or 5 videos, each about an hour long directly addressing this video. I recommend watching those for a DEEP dive into why Ortlund is mistaken.
As a catholic, I love how everything is sacramental. We experience God in the physical world that He made for us. I can pray by watching a sunset, watching the trees, or enjoying an icon painting. God wants us to Love Him, and while He gives us some rules to do so properly, He also gives us a creative spirit and an attraction to beauty that is absolutely theologically relevant.
Except for the part where Ortland demonstrates his ignorance of how doctrinal development works. Is he trying to say "Bad Catholics! You can't even use your own model correctly! " or is it more like, "Bad Catholics! You aren't adhering to Luther's Sacred Tradition of Sola Scriptura! " I mean, which is it? In conflating the two, he produced a nonsensical mess. Does he REALLY want to cite Origen for Christian wisdom apart from the Magisterium? Did you know that Origen removed his own family jewels because he took literally Jesus' admonition to pluck out an eye if it offends thee? There is so much to address... Honestly, this video is sloppy.
@@enshala6401 I think he’s representing how much OE and ROC simply justify idol worship very clearly. If you can’t see this, I’d encourage you to really let down your ego and pray about this.
@@batmanfan7506 I have studied, prayed, and reflected for decades on the Christian faith, and though I always need to pray more for the big challenges going on in my life, the subject of icons is most definitely not one of them. I am Palestinian, and icons are part of our culture, so iconoclasts are virtually racist to me. It's so unbelievably ignorant. We don't pray to a block of wood, and you guys representing it as such is really wrong. I don't understand how anyone can be so daft. Maybe you should pray about it yourself....? I mean, how would you feel if someone accused you of idolatry for your Bible worship?
Everyone is telling me come watch this video. Hmm. There are many funny things and approaches here. The scholarly approach is surprising, because I have heard so many scholars tell us that the divinity of Christ, homoousion, that the Trinity is a similar form of accretion. In the same way, we are told that this or that book is a "late addition" to the Bible, etc. So much of this is irrelevant in my estimation, the question is the story of revelation itself. Why is the image not available to being a place of the revelation of God? What is the reason for the 2nd commandment? That is the question that should be asked. Then, the proposition that there is no scriptural distinction between strict worship, and lower kind of veneration is difficult to stomach. Are we to believe that the Hebrews were worshiping the name of God at the same level as God himself? The praising of the name is important because God revealed his name to us, and so the praising of the image becomes important for the same reason. This is not just "something that happened" but the form of revelation itself, moving in ever increasing power from heaven to earth. Whether this truth became clear to Christian in year 1 or year 700 is irrelevant.
Hi Jonathan! Nice to hear from you. Hope to interact further some time. Briefly, I would disagree that the divinity of Christ, Trinity, etc. are comparable to icon veneration in their development. The divinity of Christ is a theme or motif of the New Testament. He is frequently worshiped, explicitly declared God in the epistles, crucified for blasphemy in the gospels, acts with divine authority, etc. The development in understanding of both Christology and Trinity stems from this foundation. This is in contrast to icon veneration, which I showed not merely from the scholarship but also from historical evidence is opposed by the early Christians. Also, to clarify, I did not deny the distinction between worship and veneration as such. See 1:01:11. Thanks for commenting and perhaps we can talk on another occasion about some of your other points and the larger differences.
If later Christians can come up with new ideas, which you seem to be suggesting of the Trinity, then why are Baptists and Pentecostals incorrect? Beyond being outside of the "apostolic succession"?
Can’t wait to give this a listen! I’m just finishing up an intensive study on this topic. I think that this is a litmus test area, since it’s one of the clearest places where one thing was believed universally in 250, and quite another thing in 850.
@@TruthUnites Will do. In fact, I'll send you the results of my investigation, if there's a good way of getting that to you. If not, I'll just post a link here. God bless.
Hi Lynn. Here is my take on this topic as a convert to Orthodoxy: Veneration of icons is just the outward expression of the inward veneration of God’s work in the life of the Saints. If it isn’t an act of idolatry for Asians to bow to each other, or Europeans to kiss each other, or for a grieving wife to kiss a picture of her husband, why would it be in the case of those who became radiant vessels of the Holy Spirit? The ultimate logic of why the 7th Ecumenical Council and the Orthodox Church today have for considering this practice necessary, is the same logic Protestants use to explain the Biblical verses that clearly state the necessity of works for salvation. It’s not that the act in itself saves you, but there is no way to explain how a person could have repented without the fruits of repentance, there’s no way someone truly loves God without expressing that love in actions, and there’s no way they can truly love God and fail to express love to those people through whom His presence most shined in the world.
@@Jy3pr6 Thanks for your kind explanation. I actually don't have anything at all against venerating icons myself, and I kind of like the practice. It's the historical evidence that has convinced me that we shouldn't practice it. You're welcome to check out my article series on the topic, linked in my reply to Gavin.
I go back to this video a lot. Its amazing how well your arguments stand against the massive amount of attempted refutations. I'm currently going through Suan's video and, while I really appreciate his charitable demeanor, I definitely don't find it too convincing.
![เปิดใจ "อาจารย์เบียร์ คนตื่นธรรม" อดีตเคยสุดทุกทาง ถ้าใช้หนี้หมดไปบวชแน่ l [Nickynachat]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/IxeE0xVhy08/mqdefault.jpg)
There is one thing about this video I take very seriously, and that is the thumbnail. Question my scholarship all you want, but you cannot deny that my thumbnail carries scholarly gravitas.
ALSO: I respond to some criticism here: th-cam.com/users/postUgkx1VMlzlE9wnLYdZpeuifApMjlrJmEVUsZ
This thumbnail is as close to a non-Scriptural infallible rule of faith we Protestants can muster up!
Here here. Seeing the thumbnail made me quiet myself and steel my nerves before clicking the video, seeing how deeply weighty the matter would be.
(In all reality though, so excited to see your scholarly work! Watching right now!)
The thumbnail makes you look shockingly like William Lane Craig lol
You missed your calling in comedy! 😂
Are we allowed to venerate this thumbnail? 🤔🤣
Great work, Dr. Ortlund!
As a Catholic considering Protestantism for several years now, this video was very important for me. Thank you Gavin. I've been doing my best building a defensive case for my Catholic beliefs, but more and more I feel like some of Catholic doctrines are impossible to properly defend, it boils down to appeal to authority of Pope in so many issues... Veneration of images was ALWAYS a hard pill to swallow for me too. I remember being on a Retreat Mass where all participants were asked to venerate an Icon of Mary. Not even Mary herself, but very specifically, her icon, and the prayer that followed was also, very specifically, addressing and asking THE HOLY ICON to answer the prayers. I can not describe how haunting and disturbing was this event for me. I wasn't educated enough to know why what was going on was wrong, but I knew it, I felt it in my heart, in my very soul. I was watching lots of both Catholic and Protestant Apologists on this and other topics that were concerning to me for years, and your channel has been, hands down, the best content for this purpose I've ever seen. Please keep answering these hard questions Gavin. You have no idea how hard it is for us Catholics to find a way out, even if we feel in our gut that we should. These videos are very helpful.
I converted years ago😊
May the Holy Spirit guide you!!
@@theknight8524 from what to what? Also, how did your family react?
I very nearly decided to become Catholic not long ago. I'm massively drawn towards the emphasis on tradition, high-church liturgy, and having a simple way to settle disputes of doctrine. What stopped me was that I couldn't get the idea out of my head, feelings, conscience, whatever one wants to call it, that Christ almost certainly would not want people anathematized and, so, removed from the Church for merely being unable to believe in, say, Mary's perpetual virginity, her assumption, or even her being immaculately conceived. There were a few other issues, but this, I think, was the biggest. How can it be Christ's Church, His body, if man can remove members from it erroneously, especially if such tradition is as authoritative as scripture?
@@Real_LiamOBryan have you ever considered other high church contexts with a structure of authority for setting disputes, but more inclusive and open? Like Anglicans or high Methodist or others? As a Catholic, by far the most powerful asset of protestantism is the freedom of choice. Catholics have no say about anything as far as their fate is concerned. We have to do and believe everything the magisterium teaches. I'm technically not even Catholic anymore for even having the doubts that I have. It's strict to the point of absurdity. It's not the "freedom in Christ" that Jesus promised us for sure.
@@mitromney Yes, I have. My doctrinal beliefs align very closely with conservative sorts of Methodism, and even fairly closely with conservative sorts of Anglicanism. I'm definitely not Lutheran in my beliefs. Still, being relatively close to Catholicism on some doctrines I don't feel 100% Protestant, and definitely not 100% Catholic. I believe that prayer to the saints is acceptable, that the Bishop of Rome should have a primacy of honor, that Sola Scriptura is either false or incomplete, that the dulia/latria distinction is true and useful and, therefore, that worshipping others (such as saints) is acceptable, that there is great importance--necessity even--in unity, that tradition is really important, etc. This is mostly academic for me, unless I choose Catholicism (which seems unlikely to me) or Methodism, because I only have two churches within reasonable travel distance from me, Catholic and low-church Wesleyan (which is a type of Methodist).
By the way, what are your thoughts on whether Jesus would want disbelievers in Marian dogmas removed from the Church?
I suppose another large issue I had is that it seems that the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, which is formal dogma (as far as I know), seems--in part--to directly contradict the writings of Ignatius, not have biblical support (which isn't massively important to me), be influenced by Greek philosophy, and ontologically subordinates The Son to The Father by removing His aseity, making His existence ab alio instead. It says that Christ is eternally (πρὸ πάντων τῶν αἰώνων/before all of the ages) begotten, but Ignatius says that The Son is begotten in the flesh and, explicitly, unbegotten in the spirit (Ephesians 7:2).
Those are my two biggest issues. I would love to hear your thoughts on them, if you have any you would like to share.
This was beautiful. I believe your intellect is a gift from God. Thank you for all of your work. I will be looking into purchasing copies of your works. May God bless your soul, my brother in Christ. 🩷
Easily one of the best Protestant video on youtube
Yet.. .it does not make Protestantism right. It serves purpose of deceiving people into Protestant heresies.
@@johnnyd2383kkkkk kkkk the truth hurts
@@johnnyd2383 image veneration isn’t The Truth bro. It’s paganism.
@@ramichahin2 (Col 1,15) "HE IS THE IMAGE of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation." So.. you must be runaway from the movie titled "Dumb & Dumber".
@@johnnyd2383 What does that prove? All it is how Christ is the image of God. This is not the same as icon veneration as defined in Nicea II. Make a better case
Praying for you, Gavin. This has caused quite a stir and dealing with accusations, mischaracterizations, disingenuous interpretations, and lies thrown at you is hard. Especially when in online communities like TH-cam, it feels like you are outnumbered and outnumbered = you must be wrong. Be encouraged that you are doing good work, and the hasty responses that have been made to you completely mischaracterize your views and dodge the points made. Most importantly, I'm praying that you are graciously given the strength to fight off the attacks of Satan which tempt you to anger, defensiveness, and pride - may God get the glory!
what a wonderful prayer, thanks. Keep praying, it means a lot!
As an orthodox who has had a big issue with kissing icons and praying to saints from childhood, I thank God for you and your videos. Look at their fruits. Look into how the priests actually conduct themselves in the orthodox countries. Look at their fruits. No one loves money more than an orthodox priest and his wife.
@@mangispangi Is like that in Orthodox countries ? Are you still orthodox ?
@@mangispangi there are greedy people among all sects of christianity. That’s not an argument against veneration of icons.
@Truth Unites ah man, my husband and I had high hopes for you as a rational Protestant. Do you venerate the Bible? If so, then you are worshipping the Bible, which, by your logic, makes an idol out of it. The Word (i.e. Jesus) has existed infinitely longer than the Bible (John 1). The Bible is a gift from God, not God Himself. Similar to demonizing kissing the Bible, your demonizing kissing icons is tantamount to demonizing other gifts from God based on YOUR imperfect wisdom. It's a form of Manichaeism - a terrible heresy that causes grief among the faithful because it misrepresents who God is to His loved ones. By you proclaiming good things as bad, you make yourself into a god, and THAT is what causes you to be an anathma.
Regards,
Dr. Enshala
This is surely one of the most intellectually challenging videos I’ve ever seen. Committed Catholic here, and that commitment’s still standing, but Boy, we’ve got some ‘splainin’ to do.
@johnlittle1993
Peace.
All explaining has been done. I refer you to Nicea II for an explanation on icons. Also- veneration does not equal worship. As the Church, we venerate the Cross of Christ. In essence, it is simply wood, with no real worldly value. However, it was what happened on that cross that makes all the difference. Similarly, the author of this post would not trample upon his Bible or burn it, not because it has great value in and of itself (it's paper and ink and maybe a hard cover), but because of what it represents.
The icon of the so-called "Dark Virgin" is again made of simple materials. But it is believed to have been painted by the Disciple and Evangelist, Luke.
Icons are a window as such, into the life of Christendom. THAT is why they are venerated. Through those windows, the Faithful come to know our Lord in a profound way. Stay the course.
Blessings.
Hey, Bro. Thanks for writing.
I actually did read Nicea II. And I actually did read the Canon where those who do not venerate icons are judged with an anathema. So, at least as far as the plain meaning of those canons is concerned, icon veneration is not optional for Catholics apparently; the legislation makes it mandatory. That process of development is a hard maneuver in my opinion, and I appreciate the resistance, even though I don’t per se judge the use of icons negatively. But maybe you can give me a pointer, because I can’t find it easily myself: since Gavin here says that Nicea II was not ratified by Rome at the time its decrees were promulgated, can you perhaps help me find the later act where it received papal confirmation? I’m interested to see if the confirmation was plenary or partial. Thanks!
@@JohnLittle1993
Peace, brother.
Thank you for the comment, and you are most welcome.
Remember that icon veneration is a respect and recognition of what the icon represents, which are truths of the Faith. That is the reason for the veneration. That same respect has been applied to stained glass windows and statues (and Church buildings for that matter) that depict stories of Salvation History. The idea is that just as we venerate the written Word that tells the story of Salvation History, we also venerate that SAME Holy Story depicted in Sacred Art.
There really isn't a difficult concept to grasp here, as some would make it to be. In the end it comes down to believing and respecting (venerating) Salvation History as it is taught in images and Word.
I will have to look into the acceptance of the Universal Church with regard to the canons. I would say that because Nicea II has not been refuted by the Church as other official gatherings of bishops (the Robber Synod comes to mind), there is at least an implicit acceptance of the Council if, in fact, there isn't an official recognition.
There is more to the story for sure.
Blessings.
@@JD-sj1znHi.
When you say "all explaining has been done", do you mean that all of the guy in the video's points have been debunked? If so, where can I find all of the debunks?
@@IntimidatingSnailTrent horn has debunked this a couple of times
I have to admit, you make a very good argument that not only wowed but challenged my own faith. Too often do we hear from Catholics and Orthodox saying that the veneration of iconography was historical. Per your research, that is simply not the case.
I think the opposition to the veneration of icons is a Judaizing artefact rather than a mandate of the Christian faith because Christian Freedom dispensed with it.
Many of the early Christians had that Jewish iconoclasm imbedded in their faith practice even though they were free of the Law.
Compare that to how many early Christians were against doing away with the 4th Commandment, namely “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy" for obvious reasons. The Law said the observance was for eternity.
Observing the Sabbath was even more foundational in Judaism than the issue of images.
Christ never mentioned doing away with the Sabbath. He followed the Sabbath.
Yet, the Church, which are the apostles and the believers, mandated that the that observance was not needed and the "new" day of worship was Sunday.
What gall, what usurpation of power if they did not have the Lord's delegated authority.
But the Church DID AND DOES HAVE Christ's delegated authority.
The Church declaring the veneration of icons as licit makes official what Christian Freedom allowed all along.
That the Church figures Gavin quoted retained certain Judaizing sentiments does not mean that Christian Freedom was no longer in operation.
Church figures come and go, each shaped by their milieu and their outlooks stamped with the prevailing issues of the day but it is the Church that bears Christ's promise, eternally joined to Him, inseparable.
It is the Church that moves through history and will do so in eternity.
@@AL_YZ This is a great observation. I really think there should be freedom in Christ and conscience for this. I think it may be a mistake to mandate veneration of icons, and a mistake to disallow the veneration of icons. There are a lot of issues in Romans 12-15 about freedom of conscience that sometimes gets lost in the tradition, either through unnecessary proscription or enforced prescription. If the Protestant movement can do one thing, I hope it's not the overthrowing of tradition, but the reintroduction to freedom of conscience on some of these traditions. But if freedom of conscience swings the opposite direction into condemnation of tradition, it just is repeating similar errors.
@@jonathananstett784 For a Roman Catholic, Christian Freedom prevails UNTIL the Church makes a definitive declaration of dogma after which the matter is settled.
For instance, prior to the canon being finalized, there was back and forth as to which books were included, even among the fathers. But after a consensus is reached within the Church, questioning the canon was no longer an option.
The working out of defined doctrines within the Church is often a contentious process over centuries sometimes - like finalizing the canon. For the RC, it is not just a pope unilaterally deciding this or that.
Regarding the decree to compel veneration of icons, that was a very specific response to the intense battles - theological and political - which involved the powers of the day. It really tore through the Church of the time. It was authoritative but time-bound in practice. Like the issue of the Jewish Sabbath observance I mentioned, that was settled by the Church.
So no-one has compelled anyone for the longest time ever since the iconoclastic controversies were over a thousand years ago. The Church had declared that the veneration of icons is licit and that is settled. Most RC are not even aware it was part of a recognized ecumenical council.
@@jonathananstett784
Fr oma Roman Catholic point of view, Christian Freedom prevails UNTIL the Church makes a definitive declaration of dogma after which the matter is settled.
For instance, prior to the canon being finalized, there was back and forth as to which books were included, even among the fathers. But after a consensus is reached within the Church, questioning the canon was no longer an option. Same with the Sabbath.
The working out of defined doctrines within the Church is often a contentious process over centuries sometimes - like finalizing the canon. Why so messy? Because Christ chose to deputize flesh and blood people to be His church and to teach His Word. He did not promise a new set of scriptures as a stand-alone guide that anyone can build their church around.
The bible was written by the singular Church of Christ for the Church.
He promised to abide with His church as it marches through history to the end of time.
For the RC then, it is not just a pope unilaterally deciding this or that. So this present Pope with his problematic statements is a transient slice of time while the Church that Christ left behind is everlasting.
Regarding the decree to compel veneration of icons, that was a very specific response to the intense battles - theological and political - which involved the powers of the day. It really tore through the Church of the time.
It was authoritative but time-bound in practice.
So no-one has compelled anyone for the longest time ever since the iconoclastic controversies were over a thousand years ago. The Church had declared that the veneration of icons is licit and the matter is settled. Most RC are not even aware it was part of a recognized ecumenical council.
@@AL_YZWe could use this argument for anything though, we could argue that the church politics, elders, fathers, priests, bishops, etc. are ALL against judaizers, and that christian freedom has done away with it.
Why not? We can all agree a major reason for the very first politics of the church was not meant to be permanent, otherwise it would still exist as it was(it does not).
The political structure of the church has changed much since the book of Acts, even since the days of the fathers, and as seen by Paul and Peter, much of what the apostles did was to stop judaizers. So who is Rome, who is Alexandria, who is Antioch to say we have freedom to overcome the prohibition on icon veneration?
THIS WAS AMAZING and answers so many of my questions about my greek orthodox friends practice! I appreciate it!!!
Ex Orthodox here, thanks for your insightful information 👍 👏 👌
WELP! I was seriously considering Orthodoxy, but this was extremely insightful into this issue which was ONE of the big ones preventing me from changing to it. Wow... great video, Gavin
Keep considering. I was baptized Orthodox in October after 6 years of reading and praying. It is the Church. God bless you.
@@kevinfernandez9999 and Gavin’s response to it
Read St. John of Damascus writings (and the story of his life) and the writings of St. Theodore the Studite on the matter of iconography.
Look up events surrounding the Hawaiian icon of the Theotokos of Iveron and Kursk root icon.
The lives of the Orthodox Saints are key in helping to understand these matters. (Emphasizing the importance of the lived experience of the life of the Church in the Saints throughout history. - the Gospel lived out in the lives of the Saints.)
Keep going Peter, slow and steady.
Well, I hope you get to receive Jesus' Body and Blood one day. There really isn't anything like it. The Sacramental life is really an amazing one.
@@kevinfernandez9999Trent is a joke when it comes to being a catholic apologist and being anti protestant
As a Protestant enquiring into Orthodoxy, the dogma surrounding icon veneration arising from the Seventh Ecumenical Council has been a significant barrier to entry. I've actually grown to admire the practice of icon veneration, and see how it could add value to a Christian's life. But I can't see myself agreeing that it is a necessity for sanctification/theosis, or that any Christian failing to venerate icons is anathema to the Church. I was initially drawn to EO because I thought it preserved the liturgy and worship that Christ taught the apostles, but I have found the arguments for 1st century icon veneration to be severely lacking. Thanks for all you do, looking forward to watching this!
Thank for sharing, hope the video is useful!
Think hard and very carefully before you make that leap. My son and cycled through the EO church. I was excommunicated shortly after my baptism, and drove 16 hours one way to see the bishop about it. He wasn't overly concerned,. So I got my critical thinking cap back on, and soon saw EO for what it is- a remnant of the church of Constantine. Once you ask the right questions, and look for biblical answers, you will see that the EO church is a false church. Here is a simple question. How are local churches governed in the NT. By a separate priestly caste? Or by elders/ pastors? That we are adopted sons and daughters of God under the new covenant is key to understanding the differences. I have attempted to communicate with my former priests since I returned to Protestantism (I am Baptist) and have received only one response: they will only talk with me once I return to the EO church, and not otherwise. They have been good for their word. So much for the love of Christ, eh?
@@1Immanuel8 I don't think that it's a false church - the question for me is whether it alone is the "One True Church". Out of curiosity - why were you excommunicated shortly after your baptism?
@@nathanielchristian7027 I inquired into Orthodoxy for a year. The main question is if you believe it is the only One True Church, like you said. I could never believe that. I've seen the fruit of the spirit in many other churches, and claims your church is the only one is always based on very shaky epistemology at best. Just reeks of institutional propaganda to me. I'm now very happily Anglican, we take the most reasonable answer to that question.
You should study the history of liturgy and look at the scholarly works on Reformed worship. Then you won't be fooled by EO claims.
I really don't get it - all of this veneration of various saints and supplications made to them. When you have access to boldly approach the Creator of our Universe (Christ!), then why would we ever attempt to have our burdens met by some mere mortal underling. It's as if I have some very important issue with a company over some serious mistake they've made with my account - am I going to sort it out with some powerless young clerk behind a counter, or would I not seek out the company owner that can provide both the solution AND has the authority and ability to see that it's taken care of? With Catholics, the CC even teaches that Mary is a "co-redemptrix" with Jesus - as she supposedly operates alongside Jesus to hear and address our concerns. WHAT, does Jesus somehow need HELP in getting things done? Is He not enough or is somehow lacking? It's truly inconceivable that one wouldn't first beseech Jesus!
Those are excellent reflections; we refer to the current proprietor of the universe and - the heavenly realm for - literally - Christ's sake: Jesus Christ! To the glory of His Father, to be sure.
Thank you
Kind regards Kim
“The prayers of a righteous man avail with much.”
Colossians 1:24: “Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church.”
Yet you don’t even receive your Lord in the Eucharist, curious?
@@glennjapson6234 This is a verse I'd never considered much, but you need to squint *really* hard to connect this to icon veneration. Paul is talking about martyrdom, and to apply it to anything else would require some clear allusions or parallels at least.
Just came across this video. Thank you for making it. It is very helpful.
Seraphim Hamilton has 4 or 5 videos, each about an hour long directly addressing this video. I recommend watching those for a DEEP dive into why Ortlund is mistaken.
Patient, gentle, thorough and clear.
…and incorrect.
@@aquiladavid5681 iconic retort.
@@aquiladavid5681 What was he incorrect about?
@andyontheinternet5777 I'm too sinful and ignorant to begin to explain. St. John of Damascus wrote timeless treatises in the 8th century that eviscerated the iconoclasts of his time and do the same to the iconoclasts of today. I suggest you read his works and judge for yourself and don't let PhD's with an agenda tell you what and how to think. Just google "St John Damascene on Holy Images and Project Gutenberg"
@andyontheinternet5777 I'm too sinful and ignorant to explain with precision. St. John of Damascus wrote timeless treatises in the 8th century that refuted the iconoclasts of his day and does the same to the iconoclasts of today. I suggest that you read them and judge for yourself and don't let PhD's with an agenda tell you how and what to think.
Search "St John Damascene on Holy Images and Project Gutenberg" and click the top result.
Wow. What a well compiled and well organized presentation. Excellent work!
Thanks for watching!
What good is organized presentation if he is wrong?
@@joseonwalking8666 This is not a response. Just saying "wrong" is not an argument of any substance.
@@matthew7491 I'm not going to spend hours refuting the broader message in the video. Others have done that work adnausem. Something Gavin continues to dodge btw.
I doubt even if I did spend the hours to collect all relevant information you'd even bother reading it.
@@joseonwalking8666 His research is very extensive. What is he dodging? I do as in honest Christian curiosity, because i don't see it
Wow I'm so happy I discovered you through your recent debate with Trent Horn. I've been watching a lot of Catholics recently and have been deeply moved by the history of the church, which is (obviously) mostly Catholic. Your defense of protestantism is refreshing in the sense that there is deep rooted love but also dissent from later Catholic practices which seems was the sentiment of the original protestants toward the Catholic Church. Excited to watch more of your videos defending protestantism!
glad to be connected!
Malgré sa bonne volonté, il amalgame les idoles païennes et les représentations du Christ, de la Vierge Marie et des Saints. Dieu sait qui ces images pieuses représentent et, dans sa grande pédagogie, parce-que Il comprend le besoin humain de pouvoir voir et toucher, nous permet de prier avec ces images qui fixent notre attention sur le divin. Dieu a permis l'utisation de signes, de symboles et de sculptures: l'Arche de l'Alliance, le serpent d'airain dans le désert (préfigurant le Christ sur la croix), la croix peintes sur les portes des croyants en Egypte pour signifier à l'ange de la mort d'épargner les habitants de cette maison (les plaies d'Égypte).
The RCC not following the 2nd commandment made me question the Roman Catholic Church. My relationship with God has become stronger and clear since I have turned to following God's word!
You demand that the RCC observe the second commandment:
"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above."
(Actually, no one observes that.
You interpret it loosely based on your own authority and even Gavin does not prohibit images as such but rather with veneration of images.
Now, Muslims. THEY are really observant of that prohibition.)
Yet if you are like the vast majority of protestants, you do not observe the 4th, the Sabbath.
The 4th Commandment: "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy"
That is supposed to be forever hence the Jews to this day.
In fact, the observance of the Sabbath is even more foundational to Judaism.
Jesus Christ observed the Sabbath.
You know who made the day of worship the first day of the week (Sunday) instead of the Sabbath?
The Church.
If the Church did not have the authority to basically cross out the 4th commandment, then you are in deep trouble.
Because you know that to not observe one part is to fail to observe the entirety of the law.
“For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all." (James 2:10-11)
What make you of Christian Freedom which frees Christians from the strictures of the Law?
You and Gavin are Judaizing.- requiring observance of a Jewish prohibition.
Amen!!! Me too
@@heather602 Do you observe the 3rd/4th commandment?
The 4th Commandment: "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy."
Not Sunday. The Sabbath.
@@AL_YZ I follow Jesus
Peace.
How exactly does the "Church" not follow the Second(First) commandment? And the implication that you did not have God's Word or that you couldn't follow it while IN the Church makes one question in what "church" you were.
And as an aside, Sola Scriptura is not taught in the Bible, (and no, not even in 2Tim). But, if you are interested in learning the answers to the questions that were not answered for you, I am here.
Blessings.
I see Protestantism as a pursuit of the truth not a pursuit of one’s own private judgment. Protestants DO acquiesce to something: The leading of the Holy Spirit as found in the Word of God. (John 17:17)
Protestantism, the pursuit of truth that leads to 40,000 different conclusions...
Yes except that’s nonsense and just another way of saying “my opinion.” Ever noticed every single branch of Protestantism claims they have the holy spiritual leading them to truth but all claim different things? It’s because that’s a nonsensical claim people use to act like whatever they personally believe the text says, based on their opinion was from the Holy Spirit and therefore right
With all due respect, how can that statement coexist with so many divisions, and not just on "the small things"
There are major divides on eternal security, baptism, whether Catholics are Christians, etc.
Hard to explain the Spirit leading into thousands of denominations. Seraphim Hamilton has 4 or 5 videos, each about an hour long directly addressing this video. I recommend watching those for a DEEP dive into why Ortlund is mistaken.
"I see Protestantism as a pursuit of the truth not a pursuit of one’s own private judgment. "
Protestant is built with Sola Scriptura as its foundation, who's 16th centuries fruit was, is, and shall ever be, doctrinal chaos, confusion and division. The pursuit of truth completely elusive as it's foundation by definition is one's private, fallible and unauthoritative interpretation of scripture. Yet Christ himself made numerous promises regarding the Truth:
Christ is the head of his Church (Col 1: 18)
Christ''s Church is the pillar of truth (1 Tim 3: 15)
Christ's Church is the bulwark of truth. (1 Tim 3: 15)
Christ's Church is where the manifold wisdom of God is made known. (Eph 3: 10)
*Christ PROMISED to lead it to ALL Truth.* (Jn 16: 13)
Christ PROMISED that he would NEVER leave it. (Mt 28: 20)
Christ PROMISED that the gates of hell would not prevail (it will not teach doctrinal error) ; (Mt 16: 18)
Why not trust Christ?
Thank you! That was certainly a thorough job.
Fascinating and clearly presented! Thanks
This was incredibly educational and worth every minute. Thank you, Sir!
Thorough Indeed. And deep in history. Loved this episode!
Thank you for the thorough historical and scholarly explanations. Very informative and respectful.
Hi, I was considering orthodoxy but was wary of the icons and Mary veneration. Thank you for putting this together and on TH-cam. I don’t know why orthodoxy is so attractive to me but now I see that I need to stand guard against the enticement of things like it. Thanks again!
This insistence on the second commandment is Judaizing
The Judaizers were a faction of the Jewish Christians who regarded the Levitical laws of the Old Testament as still binding on Christians.
They for instance, tried to enforce Jewish Sabbath and circumcision upon the Gentile converts.
In Gavin's case, he tries to enforce the second commandment - his interpretation of it - on Christians.
Of course Protestants totally ignore the fourth/Sabbath commandment.
That doesn't work.
"..whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."
James 2:10
What make you of Christian freedom?
Christ freed us from the legalistic aspects of the Law but doubled down on the internal moral law.
@Angismit Mary and icon veneration is something which troubles me also as a pro-orthodox Protestant. HOWEVER, Gavin teaches Calvinism, which means that God is a monster who condemns people to either heaven or hell for his own pleasure, and we have no ability to even alter our fate.
There are ways to reconcile Mary and Icon veneration (Luke 1:48) "For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed", and I've never heard a Protestant call Mary blessed.
But something which is irreconcilable is the predestination to either heaven or hell. Gavin is an incredibly charitable and humble man, but how anyone believes in that doctrine of devils is beyond me.
@@kevinjypiter6445God is holier than you think and man is more wicked than you think. God does not owe anyone mercy or grace. If He never saved a soul from the penalty of their sins, then He would still be just and perfect.
@@kevinjypiter6445 that would be a red herring: many Protestants aren’t Calvinist. We consider the Arminian Protestants brothers and sister, we don’t anathema them from the church like papists and eos do for refusing image veneration.
Spot on and AMEN! 🎯🏆Excellently documented and gracefully delivered! Thanks for all of your hard work!🙏📖
Thank you for putting so much effort into this historical and scriptural workout. I really profit from it. May God bless you in all your work!
Superb historical and biblical overview and analysis. Thank you.
All of this. I’ve had the same feelings and thoughts but did not organize or research as well as you. Thank you.
I am pro-orthodox but this brother is dropping bombs in this video, I am very taken back by this information. I am protestant but have been swaying more and more towards Orthodoxy over the years but I can't deny that this video is very powerful in regards to the use of icons. I do not see how this can be refuted by anyone, it is very well sourced.
There is still a problem that even if you don’t have physical images, you always have mental images. I think the problem isn’t as simple as looking at the history seeing some things you don’t like, interpreting some texts in a very particular way and concluding it was wrong. I also think it is quite idealistic to believe art was ‘just for decorative and educational purpose’.
@@brambes1804I’ve thought the same thing. Since the illiteracy rate was so high in that time. Art was used to tell the story. I don’t see why having religious art back then is proof of icon veneration
Seraphim Hamilton has 4 or 5 videos, each about an hour long directly addressing this video. I recommend watching those for a DEEP dive into why Ortlund is mistaken.
@@culpepper7665 Gavin just reponded.
@@brambes1804 One can according to EO theology not have mental images. And from personal experience it is quite a simple thing to pray without picturing the Lord or the Heavens or anything like it. It's not idealistic. It fits the best evidence of the intention of the Christian leaders. Whether some ill-informed person decided to venerate the art as a relic of his former pagan practice is not particularly relevant.
I'm a new-ish Christian. When I recently came across EO I became enthralled with the idea of it being the original church and its beautiful ceremonies. But as I've been researching EO over the past month or so, I paused when I became aware of the venerations of saints. The book of Judges makes it clear that mankind has a propensity for worshipping things and other people, and makes it VERY clear this does not please the LORD! Twenty minutes into this video has cleared this all up for me (I watched the whole thing though) and has ended my romance with EO. Thank you!
I’ve been on the same journey, and feel as though this video has served the same purpose for me as well. Thank you, Gavin, for quite literally doing The Lord’s work.
I did the same thing last year when I was only a few months into my walk with Christ. Now after almost 2 years, I've been regularly attending an Orthodox Parish for about a month and I love it. It's very common within the Protestant world to get hung up on the idea that since Christ is the only mediator between God and man - our spiritual lives are a individual, single-line connection between us and God. Orthodoxy sees things differently. We believe that God's grace is superabundant it flows out through the ones He has glorified - the saints, and especially through His mother, by whose obedience bore the One who would conquer death and reconcile us to God. Our worship is reserved for God alone, but we recognize that His grace pours out into those people in our lives, both those here on earth, and those who reside in the heavenly kingdom, and that we can call on them to be vessels of the grace that has it source in Him alone. Also is God not "over all, in all and through all."? (Ephesians 4)
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
it is not warshipping, it is veneration. You have to do more research, your understanding is lacking
@@ssseth9321how does one become a vessel of unmerited favor? How can unmerited favor be carried like water or cargo? We can surely supply it to others from ourselves, but how can we carry it on behalf of another?
And I would suggest Christ being our only mediator is literally what the scripture teaches. One can participate in a spiritual life with others while only having one mediator.
This is probably one of your best videos. I’m a Protestant but there are so few Protestants out there making reliable content that seriously addresses the issue of Icon Veneration. Your reliance on primary sources is great and scathing to the RC/EO position (imo). I’m curious - do lutheran and Anglicans that use crucifixes and icons in worship/devotion look at this similarly to RC/EO?
Anglican here. My priest laid it out like this: "We affirm the christological definitions of the Nicea II." We do have a crucifix and most if not all the parish bows to it as a symbol of Christ the King. When I voiced my queasiness I was assured I don't have to bow and that I should not go against my conscience. After much prayer and research I now do bow. I also have a few icons gifted to me by a friend. I occasionally kiss them as a show of affection for Christ and gratitude towards the saints who are praying for us. But all this is personal devotion not mandated.
@@EloSportsTalkAt the very least, I think that’s an answer that I and many other reasonable Protestants would accept.
@@EloSportsTalk As a Lutheran, yes, some churches use crucifixes, but many do not. For those that use them, we see them as symbolic of what we call the Theology of the Cross. They remind us of the salvation offered to us all through the death and resurrection of Christ. But we do not venerate them. Call it an object lesson and a reminder of the reality of Christ's sacrifice for us.
Lutheran here. There is a bright red line between contemplating a crucifix/icon/religious art and bowing to, kissing, or otherwise venerating that object. Very few Lutheran churches will ever allow bowing to or kissing a crucifix.
Looking at God's command in the Decalogue, the command is not against making images per se, but against making images "to bow down to them or serve them".
As a Presbyterian thinking through my traditions beliefs on icons this was incredibly helpful thank you!
Glad it was helpful!
I know fruits of the spirit is patience. But I don't know why for the life of me I can't stand the waffling on this issue for people that were never compelled to worship these images. A wicked and adulterous generation demands a sign. Why does one have to convince oneself that they are in true worship with the aide of art and images, smells and ancient relics? That is a pagan inclination.
If you're against icons I assume you're also against having crucifixes exist. Or nativity scenes at Christmas.
@medotaku9360 other than being used as a sign or a symbol, what does a crucifix get its power from ans why should u pray to it?
@@Vanpotheosisyes. I do not approve of nativity scenes and crucifixes (and I mean crucifixes specifically, not crosses. Crucifixes being a cross with a depiction of Christ on it. I say this for those who might not know the difference).
Dr. Ortlund, i have always loved your videos even if I'm quite a bit more liberal than you on several issues (I'm Episcopalian). But this has got to be your best presentation yet.
Like a lot of people in the West I have long had this vague sense that Orthodoxy was "closer" to early Christianity than other Christian branches, and that Orthodoxy had remained essentially unchanged since ancient times. (As an Episcopalian I would add that "unchanging" is not always a good thing!) But i must thank you for exploding that ignorant assumption of mine. Icon veneration is indeed quite clearly a provable doctrinal change.
Dr Ortlund, I've been following your TH-cam channel for a couple of years now and you've made a lot of great videos but I've got to say that this one is, hands down, the best you've ever done.
Wow, thanks!
Agreed.
@@TruthUnites This video came at the perfect time, because I’m going to be debating an Eastern Orthodox priest at the end of the month about whether prayer to Mary and the scenes, and their images and icons, are a form of worship or not. While we may not really get deep into the veneration of images, the focus is going to be on veneration of Mary and the Saints themselves. Do you have a video that focuses specifically on that? I’m planning on watching this video in the meantime. God bless you and your ministry as always Dr. Ortlund, 👍
Agreed!
Dr. Ortlund can you do on video on Theological Method, yours specifically? This video was helpful, scholarly an d highly persuasive.
You and Dr. Steven Nemes are what really helped me move from Catholicism back to Protestantism. Thank you.
Steven Nemes, who denies the personhood of the Holy Spirit?
@@timee3221 I don't agree with him on the Trinity but he does make great arguments for Protestantism.
@David Avery hahaha
@@1984SheepDog ?
Nemes isn't even a Christian anymore, it's quite regrettable.
Thank you for your hard work on this important topic. The information provided was one nail in the coffin of my exit from the EO church.
Thank you for putting this together. May I request one thing? Could you put this into the format of an article with full quotes of these church fathers and citations? An hour-long video is a big ask for those I want to show this to, but this video is one of the best resources on this topic I've come across. Please turn this into an article. This need to be seen far and wide.
I myself am a former Catholic, and I am deeply concerned that there seems to be a trend of Protestants who have been converted to Orthodoxy or to Catholicism. Catholics and Orthodox are far better at attacking iconoclasm/aniconism than Protestants are at defending it.
This will be a chapter in my forthcoming book, What It Means to be Protestant
@@TruthUnites Great video. When will your book be available for purchase?
@@choppy1356 summer 2024
@@TruthUnites Excellent video, great content with historic references, looking forward to your forthcoming book on this subhect. I am a exRoman catholic, now Born Again Christian, though family is still RC, praying for them to move away from this idolatry and legalism of RC.
God bless you for imparting the truth.
From: Mumbai, India.
Yes Berkana totally agree. That would be a great help to Catholics like me who would wish to point out some things the good pastor may wish to change.
Thanks.
Thanks for the suggestion!
Thanks Dr. Ortlund,
this is one of your best videos so far.
Thank you for being loving yet at the same time telling the truth. Also thank you, for being very professional in your quotations, one can see, that you truly don’t try to misrepresent anyone and that you do both, following your conscience and staying true to church history. 😊
This isn't true to history - it's a terrible example of lack of understanding about idolatry. If you venerate your Bible, are you guilty of idolatry? You can't venerate the Bible without providing for an allowance to venerate the cross, icons, people, or any other sanctified offering to God or gift from God. It's tantamount to Manichaeism, which is a heresy that material things are intrinsically evil. Any material thing can be made into an idol - so people driven by pride declared all material things evil. That's a heresy. Same thing with Icons.
Seraphim Hamilton has 4 or 5 videos, each about an hour long directly addressing this video. I recommend watching those for a DEEP dive into why Ortlund is mistaken.
Thank-you Gavin as a Protestant considering Orthodoxy for a while now. I've recently started looking more deeper into this subject it makes 0 sense when regarding scripture. Godbless you and your family ❤
What do you mean?
@@πατριχορ read what I put
same. honestly, I could never imagine paul ever kissing a painting of moses
Make sure you give John of Damascus’s letters on iconography a read before just dismissing the biblical basis thereof.
Brilliant Gavin ! Your biblical standpoint makes all things clear .
Informative, thank you! When you wrapped it up with the Gospel, I couldn't help but say AMEN.
Brubaker (author) - it's a purple coloured book
As an ex Greek Orthodoxx Christian turned Baptist Christian, all I can say is ALL GLORY TO GOD ALMIGHTY for this video. Thank you.
Hi PermaFrost77 - I really like your “name”, as I grew up in The North…but…even more so - the thumbnail of your “puppy” is precious! I have been blessed to have a Husky, Malamute, Akita, even a half wolf/husky, as well as, some precious smaller breeds like a Silky Yorkshire Terrier, Shi-Tsu, and many other pups, along with rescuing wildlife when need be! There is a special place in my heart for all glorious creatures!
Have a great week!🇨🇦☺🇨🇦
You were never properly rooted or grounded in the Orthodox spiritual tradition.
@@theodosios2615 You were probably never rooted and grounded in the Orthodox spiritual tradition. The deified saints trump modern critics and academics who limit theology to a purely academic thing, but have too much of the world and devil in them.
@@TruthBeTold7 The apostles nor Jesus practiced or taught icon "veneration". It's not an apostolic tradition.
@@dustindustindontworry-jz8dh Their purpose was to get the Gospel message out. Orthodoxy has a different metaphysics than the western heterodox systems. I don't accept your assumption that iconography has to be explicit in the apostles. But we do know that St. Luke painted the first icon.
I’ve always been a Protestant that wanted to convert to Catholicism with my friends or Orthodox. But every time I started to dig deeper into it I realized I just like the sincerity of the aesthetics of those churches and the quietness of heart that they invoke when you enter them. Even the discipline of the rosary seemed like a helpful tool for my wandering mind. BUT I never converted and have realized I am as Protestant as they come. When I read the Bible and gospels Catholicism and Orthodoxy just seemed so far away from the flavor of the simple purity of the New Testament. To top it off I’m an artist and I have always struggled with the purpose of my art and Christian art and afraid of creating idol like images. I’m very wary of it and continually have to ask God why he gave me this gift and its highest purpose, how to use it for him without it becoming more than that.
Thank you Dr Ortlund, a remarkable and useful video!
Thanks so much for addressing this with so much documentation. I was once led astray by arguments in favor of icon veneration but I have to admit I could never fully embrace it at the heart or conscience level. Although I know that many who are in favor of icon veneration will have a comeback for everything you’ve presented and that they will ultimately appeal to the “consensus of the fathers” and to their ecclesiology, I am convinced they have erred on this subject. Thanks for speaking the truth in love.
Thanks Will, glad you found this useful!
@@TruthUnites th-cam.com/video/7EH_CoysXW8/w-d-xo.html
....you don't understand what you attack.
Gavin ortlund, thank you for the video! Should I destroy icons or statues of Jesus? I am confused of the proper Biblical stance. Should I keep a picture of Christ? I do not venerate them but it is decorative/a reminder of Christ.
@@michaelwhitman9937
If you believe they’re a 2 commandment violation, you could. If they lead you astray to worship them, destroy them as Hezekiah destroyed the Bronze Serpent (2 Kings 18:4).
@@michaelwhitman9937at's between you and God. If it starts affecting you then put them away. I grew up near a Catholic lady's house that had giant crosses everywhere and crowds would gather on Friday 13th because visions of Mary would appear to her. That's the context I have with icons and saints. To me, crosses and pictures should be considered like a flag or logo. You wouldn't set fire to your country's flag but you're not gonna build an altar to it. I personally don't want a cross in my room but on a Bible or Christian phone app, or in church is fine.
Thanks for the video! You presented it very charitable and truthful. That’s true, this alone will make one Protestant!
I don't think this video will make a person protestant. A person that does not think the Bible is infallible or even correct, will not suddenly think:
Oh, icon veneration is an accretion, I should be a protestant Christian.
I agree with Trent Horn on that point. For protestantism to be true Protestant claims need to be proven, disproving catholic/orthodox claims does not do that.
@@georgwagner937Protestantism doesn’t have to be proven true, all it does is rely on the Bible. All we care about is that the Bible is true. And yeah, that can definitely cause differences in belief and practice, but not in orthodox beliefs - those are not “Christian.”
But if we disprove Catholicism / Orthodoxy, that is, any of the “infallible” portions, the whole point of authority falls. Therefore, the church is not the only authority. And those who disagree with the authority are… drum roll… protesters. Or, Protestants.
So if you want to be a Christian, but reject the Catholic / Orthodox views, you can easily be a Protestant.
Anyways, I am not against Catholic / Orthodox Christians. But I don’t think their authority as the only church (not necessarily “true,” - I think all three branches are true) is accurate.
@@manxydom9879if orthodoxy isn’t true than Christianity isn’t. I’m sorry but that’s just the truth.
@@Tornadospeed10Asserting that if orthodoxy is false means that Christianity is false is just that - an assertion.
Anyways, I never said orthodoxy or the Orthodox Church wasn’t true. I think it is. I don’t think it is infallible in every aspect though.
For example, the assumption of Mary could have never happened, and the Orthodox Church would still be true.
Fallible men stating that something is true when it isn’t doesn’t stop the scripture from remaining true. I’m not saying all traditions outside the Bible are false, but I think some are false.
@@Tornadospeed10 As a former oriental orthodox from the cradle for 4 decades and presently baptist, I find your claims laughable :D
You are making me think. Thank you for that.
Praise God for the Protestant Reformation.
THANK YOU for another insightful and clarifying episode! We all need to strive and walk a Biblical Faith!
Blessings to you and your family!🇨🇦☺🇨🇦
Hi Shelley! If I may add to the conversation. Even God Himself commanded images to be made - the statues of cherubim that go on either side of the tabernacle and the bronze serpent (which when people looked at it, they were healed from their snake bites) to name a couple.
God made us to be body AND spirit, not just spirit. As such, the LORD comes to us in both spiritual and physical ways. Think of Jesus - He healed by His Word, and by mixing His saliva with dirt and putting it on a man's eyes. He gave large crowds bread and fish to keep them sustained. A woman was healed through touching the tassel of His cloak. He physically died on the Cross for us. He instituted the Eucharist - we get to actually receive the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus, truly Present in the Eucharist, into our bodies. Wow! What an amazing gift.
God made us with bodies, and He declared it very good. Our bodies are not bad. Images are not banned - graven images are. Looking at/having an image of Jesus is not only not harmful, it's powerful and beautiful! I encourage you to look into the Catholic Faith - good resources can be found on Ascension Presents (TH-cam, the Ascension App) and Catholic Answers (website and TH-cam). God bless!
- A Catholic Christian
Just wanted to say this has been a great channel. It has caused me to question why I believe what I believe. At the outset this is a scary thing it has caused me to look deeper at church history, the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and the reformation. It is all so much deeper and more complicated than I ever thought.
glad its been helpful and thanks for having an open mind and heart!
read what I wrote. Funny, Im the opposite
It turns out the RCC and EO are being ahistorical interesting; they traditions are in fact hardly apostolic and had to “develop” and more often than not unbiblical
Definitely can relate to this!!! blessings
@@BryceCarmony Where did Jesus say that?
Gavin, I love the manner in which you speak, and I must add, I really did enjoy hearing you speak with an extra tone of boldness in this video. It was great. Keep up the good work. These videos are always worth listening to.
Appreciate all you do Gavin! 👍
Although I respect people who prefer a Protestant path, my christian life bloomed when I joined the Orthodox Church. Icons are central in my worship. Like music and Liturgy. I worship the Father , Son and Holy Spirit-that’s it. Don’t understand the confusion.
adopted pagan practice. welp
The true church is the Bible believing church, not a church that puts their traditions above the Holy Bible, “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.”◄ Exodus 20:4
@@findev6330 And then God commands that images of Cherubim be made on the ark a few verses later...
@@findev6330 The true church is the church established by Christ, beginning with Pentecost in 33 AD, which is the Orthodox. The Bible was not canonized until your 397AD..Christians existed well before that. Tradition precedes the Bible, but is not superior to it. The Bible must be interpreted within the context of tradition, that's how you avoid many heresies and liberal nonsense that non-denominational and mega churches fall for.
@@LaRevolution0 The church that hid the Bible for a thousand years and burned people alive for owning the scripture in their native language has truth, don’t make me laugh!
Gavin! Tremendous work on putting this video together. You have challenged and given me (an orthodox Inquirer) much to think about.
I would be very interested in listening in on a conversation between you and Jonathan Pageau about the symbolism and use of Iconography. From watching him speak on the matter, I feel that I have learned that the reason for appealing to the saints for forgiveness and other matters, as opposed to directly receiving from the hands of God is because of the participatory nature of God's Kingdom. It is not that we need their mediation but that Saints are welcomed to participate in "the divine council" and other roles as an act of God's love. In this way, love ascends up and back down the hierarchy in a beautiful harmonious fashion that unites Heaven and Earth. Veneration of the Icon allows us to enter this reality and one that is more truly understood through experience. I have found this idea of "participation" most powerfully expressed in the theme of the Son of Man, Genesis, and the biblical narrative as a whole.
To be honest the info presented here is causing much cognitive dissonance and doubt. I have many experiences that tell me that venerating icons is a beautiful thing but cannot deny the alarming info presented here. In moments like this I find the only thing I can turn to is Christ in prayer. Should I set my home icon of Christ and the saints aside despite it helping orient my life around Him? I don't know the answer to that. I have been telling myself that the fruits of the spirit would be my litmus test for truth. In other words, has God made me more like him or less through communing with the saints? I am still waiting to see. Perhaps Idolatry has more to do with the heart then the action. I pray for discernment and ask that you would pray for me too.
Thank you for your faithfulness.
Thanks Matthew, may the Lord guide you and direct you!
Yes, I too would love to see a discussion between Ortland and Pageau!
You don’t need to remove the icons in your home, religious art can Be greatly edifying. The difference is whether we use art for devotion or for actual worship and for the liturgy
Hi Matthew! If I may add to the conversation. Even God Himself commanded images to be made - the statues of cherubim that go on either side of the tabernacle and the bronze serpent (which when people looked at it, they were healed from their snake bites) to name a couple.
God made us to be body AND spirit, not just spirit. As such, the LORD comes to us in both spiritual and physical ways. Think of Jesus - He healed by His Word, and by mixing His saliva with dirt and putting it on a man's eyes. He gave large crowds bread and fish to keep them sustained. A woman was healed through touching the tassel of His cloak. He physically died on the Cross for us. He instituted the Eucharist - we get to actually receive the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus, truly Present in the Eucharist, into our bodies. Wow! What an amazing gift.
God made us with bodies, and He declared it very good. Our bodies are not bad. Images are not banned - graven images are. Looking at/having an image of Jesus is not only not harmful, it's powerful and beautiful! I encourage you to look into the Catholic Faith - good resources can be found on Ascension Presents (TH-cam, the Ascension App) and Catholic Answers (website and TH-cam). God bless!
- A Catholic Christian
You forgot to mention that once people started praying to the bronze serpent the king destroyed it and God praised it....
This overview of examples of early church interaction was brilliant and enlightening in bringing forth truth. a must watch for all Christians.
What an awesome video. I knew next to nothing about this topic yesterday and now I feel like I know so much, yet I’ve barely scratched the surface of how much knowledge there is on the topic. I feel like so much knowledge is knowing what you don’t know
Woah, this is beautiful Spirit led biblical based discussion... This is what I'm looking for!
Very well spoken. You speak truth firmly but graciously. By far the best presentation of this subject I have listened to.
If I may add to the conversation. Even God Himself commanded images to be made - the statues of cherubim that go on either side of the tabernacle and the bronze serpent (which when people looked at it, they were healed from their snake bites) to name a couple.
God made us to be body AND spirit, not just spirit. As such, the LORD comes to us in both spiritual and physical ways. Think of Jesus - He healed by His Word, and by mixing His saliva with dirt and putting it on a man's eyes. He gave large crowds bread and fish to keep them sustained. A woman was healed through touching the tassel of His cloak. He physically died on the Cross for us. He instituted the Eucharist - we get to actually receive the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus, truly Present in the Eucharist, into our bodies. Wow! What an amazing gift.
God made us with bodies, and He declared it very good. Our bodies are not bad. Images are not banned - graven images are. Looking at/having an image of Jesus is not only not harmful, it's powerful and beautiful! I encourage you to look into the Catholic Faith - good resources can be found on Ascension Presents (TH-cam, the Ascension App) and Catholic Answers (website and TH-cam). God bless!
- A Catholic Christian
This was great. I'm reading up on my Protestant history and it is really eye-opening. Ancient history is one of those areas you need to actually have the language chops for though, so I'm glad this is available.
Martin Luther sure did made a big old mess. His teaching deceived millions who have absolutely no clue as to how their religion was formed an alcoholic mentally unstable Catholic priest that hated the Jew, mocked the word of God, and broke his vows. I bet 99% of all Protestants have never read his sermon "The Jews & his Lies". All Protestant Churches and denomination can be traced directly to either Horny King Henry the 8th who broke off from the Catholic Church to commit adultery, or to Luther the drunk. And while we're at it, the vast majority Protestants couldn't tell you where the Bible came from to save their lives. Yet these trolls think they are Masters of Scripture & the only ones that are saved. Don't believe me? Read their comments.
If I may add to the conversation. Even God Himself commanded images to be made - the statues of cherubim that go on either side of the tabernacle and the bronze serpent (which when people looked at it, they were healed from their snake bites) to name a couple.
God made us to be body AND spirit, not just spirit. As such, the LORD comes to us in both spiritual and physical ways. Think of Jesus - He healed by His Word, and by mixing His saliva with dirt and putting it on a man's eyes. He gave large crowds bread and fish to keep them sustained. A woman was healed through touching the tassel of His cloak. He physically died on the Cross for us. He instituted the Eucharist - we get to actually receive the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus, truly Present in the Eucharist, into our bodies. Wow! What an amazing gift.
God made us with bodies, and He declared it very good. Our bodies are not bad. Images are not banned - graven images are. Looking at/having an image of Jesus is not only not harmful, it's powerful and beautiful! I encourage you to look into the Catholic Faith - good resources can be found on Ascension Presents (TH-cam, the Ascension App) and Catholic Answers (website and TH-cam). God bless!
- A Catholic Christian
Fantastically put. Wonderfully detailed with all the important info
Glad it helped!
Thankyou for this. It is alot of information. I will need to watch this a few times more.
I was a Protestant who became Orthodox back in 2010. After your vidoes and teachings, and my own very long study of ecclesiastical history, I have decided to leave Orthodoxy, and follow Christ according to Sacred Scripture. I am so glad that Christ used your ministry to challenge me to ask more questions and do more research...I am now what my former Church would call a heretic. Amen.
Christanity is not hop step & jump
The best part of Protestantism is that you can still affirm that your Orthodox friends are a part of Christ’s church! You can still believe they are saved!
The Church of Christ just got much bigger for you - it now contains Orthodox, Protestant, and Catholic followers of Jesus :)
And you are free to keep all of the practices, traditions, and elements of your Orthodox church that you found to be Christ-honoring and reflecting God’s goodness. Hopefully you can teach us, the rest of your Protestant brethren, some of the good things you learned in the Orthodox church that are worth sharing!
@@repentantrevenant9776that's incoherent when those three groups all have different and contradictory beliefs.
@@scopeguy you don't have to agree on every piece of doctrine to be saved, or even to be in the same church. Within the Catholic or Orthodox churches there are massive disagreements over doctrine.
@@repentantrevenant9776 sorry differences inside and between Catholic and EO are miniscule compared to the differences just between different Protestants. Catholics specifically have a magisterium that can settle disputes. Some Protestants say homosexuality is fine, or divorce is fine, or numerous other things that are pretty clearly laid out as prohibited if you're not reading the text with a bias. Also, Protestants differ on soteriology, justification, as well as ecclesiology in ways that would have been foreign to early Christians.
If you can just go to another church that agrees with your beliefs, that's not a religion, that's just a social club.
This was so thorough for an *hour video I'm so impressed
Watch his interview with ex Orthodox priest
@@theknight8524 I did! It was his first-ever video I watched
When you study the history around Roman Catholicism and its epistemology, it seems very clear that they have made things up as they went along to preserve their power structure.
How is this free?! So well done. I am very impressed. Thank you for laying it all out for us. Blessings, brother.
The canon he quotes are from catholic post schism and not Orthodox. He’s giving a bias perspective not even from the original council. Ask yourself how many countries were invaded by Protestants and Catholics and how many cultures were decimated then ask yourself how many times the Orthodox committed such acts. You will know them by their fruits.
@@PatronSaintSpyridon
Peace.
Your history is a bit skewed to say the least. The Orthodox were part of the Crusades, and were responsible for the Massacre of the Latins prior to the Sack of Constantinople. The Orthodox also murdered the wife of Manuel I Komnenos, their own empress. Please...
AND the Canon was set at the Council of Hippo in 393. That same canon the Catholic Church uses today. It is the Orthodox who are in schism since they are NOT in union with Peter (see Mt 16:16), and establish their own Apostolic missions and juristictions apart from Peter.
I pray that one day we can be one, as Christ is One.
@@JD-sj1zn The Orthodox, as Pope John Paul II stated clearly, have most dutifully kept to the authentic traditions of the Apostles - we have never been in Schism as your excommunication in 1054 was invalid, but since then your See has clearly walked away from the rest of the Church and has caused so much trouble with innovation that Protestantism is squarely your responsibility. Do not throw stones in your own glass house.
@@dankmartin6510
?.
@@dankmartin6510
Not being in union with Peter is schism. Setting up Apostolic missions and jurisdictions apart from Peter is schism. Teaching a doctrine apart from 1000 yrs of Tradition with regard to the Keys is schismatic- the very definition of schism. Study your revered Saints who all were in union with Peter BEFORE you throw your stones, sir.
Good Job Gavin! Everyone on the internet has now commented on this video.
Yes, everyone is commenting on it because it is astonishing that in this day and age, there are still iconoclasts. Unbelievable. Why are you so excited about this? Is this your way of living boldly for Christ?
Amen. Great teaching and did with facts, love, and conviction. May God continue to bless you, your family, and your ministry.
If I may add to the conversation. Even God Himself commanded images to be made - the statues of cherubim that go on either side of the tabernacle and the bronze serpent (which when people looked at it, they were healed from their snake bites) to name a couple.
God made us to be body AND spirit, not just spirit. As such, the LORD comes to us in both spiritual and physical ways. Think of Jesus - He healed by His Word, and by mixing His saliva with dirt and putting it on a man's eyes. He gave large crowds bread and fish to keep them sustained. A woman was healed through touching the tassel of His cloak. He physically died on the Cross for us. He instituted the Eucharist - we get to actually receive the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus, truly Present in the Eucharist, into our bodies. Wow! What an amazing gift!
God made us with bodies, and He declared it very good. Our bodies are not bad. Images are not banned - graven images are. Looking at/having an image of Jesus is not only not harmful, it's powerful and beautiful! I encourage you to look into the Catholic Faith - good resources can be found on Ascension Presents (TH-cam, the Ascension App) and Catholic Answers (website and TH-cam). God bless!
- A Catholic Christian
Super helpful, especially by giving us specific texts from ante-Nicean fathers. THAT's the tradition I wish to follow.
I have never seen a more even-handed and objective report on the questions surrounding icon veneration. I enter this as part of my research into Orthodox understandings and practices because I have Orthodox friends I love and want to understand. I watch their Orthodox videos done by some well-educated and clear-teaching priests. I've seen those priests use the language Dr. Ortlund attributes to them, which elevates my confidence in Dr. Ortlund as he does not mock or mischaracterize them. Thank you, Dr. Ortlund, for being gracious and sharing these scholarly videos with those of us who are seeking the truth.
The most shocking thing about the Church after the conversion of Constantine is the barbaric practices used to enforce church teaching, i.e. the gouging of eyes, cutting off noses, etc. In attempting to enforce correct theology they forgot correct morality.
Nicely said.
That wasn't to correct theology it was to protect heresy.
Much of the violence was used by the effort to stamp out icons. Some historians think more Christians were killed by a “Christian“ emperor to stamp out icons.
That’s a poor misrepresentation of what was going on.
I so appreciate the thoroughness of your research and presentation in this video. This is very compelling.
So glad it was useful! Thanks Colin!
But it wasn't through he conveniently ignored the evidence in support. Appeals to a few heretics and ignores the ppl who gave him the scriptures venerated icons.
@@joseonwalking8666 which ones do you think were ignored?
@@joseonwalking8666quite the baseless accusation there.
@@noobitronius baseless? Tell me who did he appeal to in regards to evidence of early church? I will wait for your response. When you list them out I think you will see my piint.
Wow, after this I am seriously considering taking the Protestant reformation seriously, currently an Orthodox catechumen, I realized lately that I didn't give Protestantism an honest enough consideration so I watched this video. I had a large misconception that Protestantism had no patristic backing, thank you for this video!
may the Lord guide you and direct you
This is exactly the reason why my mom converted from Catholic to Protestan before I was even born! she didn´t have all these knowledge of course, but she had the holly spirit to make her extremely uncomfortable with icon veneration. Thank you mom!
There was nothing Holy about that spirit. Just a demon pushing her to worship herself. Of course she was already infested by a lot of other demons in the "catholic" church.
The Holy Spirit would never push anyone to reject the relics of the Saints before you. Your protest Christ and reject the Right Worship.
Schism is sin.
Icons aren’t a requirement to be a Catholic. I’m sorry your mom was probably horribly catechized.
@@gnomeresearch1666 This is why the Catholic church should review its doctrines, rather than excommunicated those who question them.
All I see from Protestants... is the fact that they can't admit they are wrong... and thats from a Protestant who's now Catholic.
Anyone who truly searches the truth and can get over themselves and open their heart to the Holy Ghost- can not remain Protestant. There were bigger Catholic bashers than Dr Ortlund who are now Catholic.
Gavin- I found the structure of this video very helpful. Please do more like this!!! It’s excellent to see the topics from different angles like this. Very helpful. Honestly, too many of us don’t have the time or mental capacity to dig through all of this, so thank you for doing that for us. Thank you Gavin🙏🏻
Glad you found it helpful!
@@TruthUnites Debunking catholicism
I'm more blessed than mary
Proof = Luke 11:27-28
27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!”
28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen
_________________________
CHRIST alone
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
ACTS 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
There is only One Mediator between God and men, LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by One Spirit to the Father
John 15:5
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
_________________________
Work of God =
John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
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1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach
Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul.
Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop
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Jesus said Matthew 23:9
9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11
11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father.
Sad
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Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God
Use this to defeat the argument.
Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”
Matthew 12:46-50
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”.
Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.”
John 19:26-27
26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards).
By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26.
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We should not pray to apostles
Romans 1:25
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Acts 10:25-26
25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.”
Acts 14:15
15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them,
Revelation 19:10
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
Revelation 22:8-9
8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."
Colossians 2:18
18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34
34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Hebrews 7:25
25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles
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Apostles are allowed to marry,
1 Corinthians 9:1-5
1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?
If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry?
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The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic).
1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple
2)He sank down while walking on water
3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan
4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times
5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven
6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear
7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles.
8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land),
9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit),
10)King Soloman messed up,
11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11).
Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up)
12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up.
13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20, 1 Corinthians, Galatians.
14) Apostle John when receiving Revelation worshiped an angel and the angel said "see you do not do that. Worship GOD" Revelation 22:8-9
If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up.
_
Galatians 4:21-26
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Sarah is mother of all, Not mary
Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics
Changed the 10 commandments by deleting 2nd commandment, and dividing the 10th into 2 commandments. Also changing the real Saturday Sabbath to fake sunday sabbath.
@@mynameis......23 Debunking Catholics? These arguments are outdated and the Church had already refuted.
Thank you for all the time it must have taken you to put together this video. Videos like this are so needed right now. So many Protestants have no roots and are falling away right now.
@TJMcCarty
Peace.
That is because their foundation is sand.
Blessings.
@@JD-sj1zn I would say their foundation is the Word of God, which is the only immovable Rock.
@@TJMcCarty
Not according to that Word itself.
Scripture says that the CHURCH is the bulwark and foundation of Truth.
The Canon was not decided upon until the 4th century. What was the Authority in the first 4 centuries? The Church was. Who decided on the Canon of Scripture? The Church did.
As Augustine, a Catholic bishop, stated, "I would not believe in Scripture, if not for the authority of the Catholic Church."
As the Church, we DO believe that Scripture is the Word of God. But it is only because our Lord gave us an authoritative Church that told us it is.
@@TJMcCarty
Consider looking at the Church for the first 16 centuries of Christendom, when there was only "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church". (Nicea I, 325AD)
@@TJMcCarty
Peace.
Also, in your search for an accurate Bible (yes, I read your post from 3 weeks ago), consider buying the Catholic Douay-Rheims version with notes by Bishop Challoner.
Blessings.
Even when I was a catholic, my family who were generational Irish Catholics would correct me when I would call myself a Christian. They would say "we are Catholics, not Christians" Even the priest at the Canoga Park Perish corrected me the same. When I was 16 I converted and was born again by faith, and my eyes have been so opened to truth. I now totally agree with my parents, relatives and "Father" Larry in Canoga Park. Catholics are not Christians. I have now been a Pastor of a Baptist Church for almost 30 years and have been able to reach many of my family with the Gospel of Christ. My Father became a deacon of another Baptist church, my mother who tried to remain in the Catholic church after conversion eventually was removed from her membership of the church (Simi Valley) for asking to many questions, mainly about Baptismal regeneration and assurance of salvation.
Thank you so much for this video!
I have known the position of the early church and in scripture on this matter for a long time. To hear a scholarly presentation of how we arrived from there to here is quite educational, thank you.
Seraphim Hamilton has 4 or 5 videos, each about an hour long directly addressing this video. I recommend watching those for a DEEP dive into why Ortlund is mistaken.
@@culpepper7665 I think the second commandment and the whole reason Israel was extinguished in ancient times says it all
@@christianperspective9527 All that is addressed in the videos I referenced. Simply offering a much deeper dive into the topic than Gavin has put forth for those interested.
Thank you for this excellent and thorough explanation!
As a Protestant Christian who has spent the past twenty five years in IFB circles, it’s nice to finally hear a Baptist call himself a Protestant.
Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus, so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.
That’s a prayer to a saint.
No other to look at it. It’s in the Bible
@@EmptyDisc1 Not really my point. yes it is a parable not didactic teaching.
My point is that the protestant sensitivity to calling on other than God for succour or help doesnt seem to be shared by Jesus or his disciples or the jewish opponents listening to Jesus.
Jesus included a detail in the story which would make a protestant cringe or have to somehow explain away as you have attempted to.
Jesus didnt have to teach prayers to the saints, it was already something his audience was well familiar with hence the detail is included in His story, which is continued by the Orthodox Church.
It is the protestant position that is a novelty.
Honestly answer this question is there any circumstance in this life or the next (in the presence of God) in your paradigm, when I can say "Mother Mary, have mercy on me, send gabriel to assist me in my hour of suffering"?
Your answer, in your paradigm would be that that is idolatry because no pleas or intercession can be directed to other than God.
Well, looks like jesus and his audience dont share your sensitivities.
@@EmptyDisc1 again that’s not my point. I don’t believe Jesus is teaching prayers to the saints there. That would be absurd, it’s absurd because everyone just accepted it was a thing they did.
The reason we can conclude that is no one is protesting idolatry there.
But a Protestant would definitely protest and say that the story is an example of idolatry.
@@EmptyDisc1 if your point is that Jesus taught a blatantly false story. Then you’re delusional.
A parable, a story communicates truth.
Your position is that Jesus is incorporating idolatry into his story! Really? That’s where you want to go?
Jesus incorporates elements that his audience is familiar with.
Hence they are familiar with the idea of appealing to saints and patriarchs for succour.
Something that you would categorize as idolatry.
Basically the Protestant position would be that appealing for succour to other than God is idolatry.
Again not a position Jesus and his followers shared.
My point to put it succinctly is that the Protestant objects to appealing to Patriarchs and Saints for succour.
That position is a novelty and contradicts Christs teachings.
@@EmptyDisc1 and this is the problem with sola scriptura. You assume that there is no context that Jesus lived in, no culture and no basic assumptions and traditions.
But we can glean this from the parable easily.
They didn’t react with shock and wonder at a person appealing to a patriarch for succour.
That’s because it wasn’t a shock to them.
However, we know it would be a shock to a Protestant to appeal to a saint or patriarch for succour and so we can see that the Protestant position is the novelty.
I've never thought of this, but wow, what a good point, thank you, from your catholic cousin lol, God bless ❤
Wow! What a comprehensive and incredible compilation of evidence and arguments. This was very thought-provoking. 🤔
The thumbnail in itself is an indisputable argument from beauty
Reading was for the few: Historically, this is why religious art, icons, sculptures, and oral traditions have been so powerful. They communicate ideas and stories that transcend the written word, allowing people to feel a sense of presence and meaning. A painting or statue of a saint, for example, can convey a sense of reverence and inspiration without needing any words at all.
As a current catechumen in the EO, this helps A LOT! I havent started venerating yet, and deep down it feels 'off.' My priest said there is no hurry but I will eventually need to get there. I also question their exclusivism. Ill never be able to accept that. I think you gave me the solid reason why I wont crismate now. Thank you!!
If you feel "off" that's the Holy Spirit talking to you. Listen to Him.
Your conscience is not formed yet, that’s why it feels off. It’s proper to venerate icons. Don’t let Gavin keep you from Christ.
@@MrWesford Gavin is bringing back the early Christians thought! You can go and bow to graven images, however, you don't have a defence for it. Go after the flesh!
That's a fallacy because it doesn't feel "off" for others. I can turn that around and say "It feels 'off' because Satan is trying to keep you away from the truth (Orthodox)"@@alishavogel7926
@@MrWesfordman what a sad response. The word was made flesh and dwelt amongst us. Died for us, was ressurrected and left us with Commandments. But confessing with your mouth that he is Lord and believing in your heart that God raised him and following his way is not enough! Nope! Cause if you dont kiss and honor these picture you will be kept away from Christ. I am fond of the EOC but man comments like yours are foul
I am now a practicing Catholic. Born Catholic, became a Baptist then searching Jesus more deeply I read and moved to Pentecostal then The Lord les me to the Catholic Church in 1998. I love the Mass and Eucharist. I however still love the Bible, I do not worship idols and deeply object to all the statues and recited prayer. I enjoy and love you talks. Agree in many ways. Thank you, Pastor Gavin
Why do you object to the statues and recited prayer, esp. the statues? I'm not Catholic, but I do love Catholic art. The stained glass, the statues and pictures are beautiful and serene depictions. I don't enjoy the style of Orthodox art though. They aren't serene and there is something austere about their style of artwork that I always found a bit depressing. The Catholic depictions are uplifting though.
Doesn't Nicaea II anathematise you then?
@@evanspencer3632 I'm almost sure one of the councils would be anathematising her. Though from what I can tell by all the anathemas, a huge number of practicing Catholics would fall under this curse. It's really a terrible thing that the RCC declared these so much over too many of its sanctioned doctrines.
I feel like I see this kind of thing a lot. I could be misreading what you're saying, but I frequently see those who with Protestant background who have gravitated to Catholicism do so because they crave the structure of liturgy. I can admit to often being underwhelmed by the form of worship practiced in contemporary church environments, but I can't see how this would ever lead me toward stepping into a church environment that teaches such obviously false doctrines that are antithetical to core doctrines as outlined in scripture. To me, simply craving structure is an insufficient basis for embracing a church that not only promotes such doctrines, but anathematizes those who don't. Having spent substantial time in Latin America, I've observed firsthand how pervasive the veneration of images is as an aspect of Catholic practice, with shrines of Mary at the peak of countless mountains. I'm glad you appreciate Dr. Ortlund's analysis of the issue, but to me, from what I've seen, and what we see him saying, this is something that's central, not peripheral, when it comes to Catholic perception of what it means to be devoted in one's religious practice.
@@johnnythegringo8855 You can still get a structured, or high church liturgy on the protestant side too though. Anglicans, Lutherans and Presbyterians all have it. I wonder if it's the claim of apostolic succession and having infallible central doctrine?
I am a devout Catholic and attend daily Mass. I have never worshipped a statue.
I know! Me either! I have never been taught to do this.
That's not his point he understands they don't worship the icons but he is coming from a historical standpoint on the early church father's did not approve of this practice
It seems that a lot of protestants have to mis-represent or flat out lie about Catholicism. Then their followers dislike the church, not because of what the church is, but what they think it is. I guess it makes them feel justified for not being a part of the church?
They teach Mary was sinless. But the truth is that Jesus was the only sinless person ever and even Mary needed him for salvation.
@@craiganderson8569 I work with a devout catholic who believes this firmly. He was taught this by the clergy. Maybe you were not taught this and that's good but he didn't come to this conclusion by himself. Regardless, I consider you a brother in Christ and I have nothing against you. Let us worship our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus and his amazing sacrifice on this beautiful day. Peace be with you.
@TruthUnites thank you for this video. It's very informative.
I absolutely LOVE this summary on this issue. It is extremely well stated and clearly explained in this video. Keep up the great work!
Thanks, glad you found it helpful!
Seraphim Hamilton has 4 or 5 videos, each about an hour long directly addressing this video. I recommend watching those for a DEEP dive into why Ortlund is mistaken.
I see an interesting psychological parallel here to the doctrine of the Trinity. I talk to many Muslims, usually amicably, and no amount of effort explaining to them that our belief in the Trinity does not violate monotheism can alleviate their horror at what to them is plain and obvious polytheism - as well as idolatry in the worship of the man Jesus. They are unimpressed with subtle distinctions and terms like ousia, hypostasis, incarnation, etc. All that rationalizing, in their deeply intuitive estimation, just papers over pseudo-paganism, a denial of the unity of God and his exclusive right to worship.
Many Protestants seem to have the same kind of experience with Christian iconography. No amount of explaining to them that our veneration of icons does not violate the right worship due to God can alleviate their horror at what to them is plain and obvious idolatry. They are unimpressed with our subtle theological distinctions or our pointing out how the Incarnation is itself an icon and changes the nature of our knowledge of God from natural reason and the O.T., etc. All that rationalizing, in their deeply intuitive estimation, just papers over pseudo-paganism and God‘s exclusive right to worship.
@Tennis Brah Theological and philosophical elaboration is precisely what happened in the case of sacred images. This is because the Christ Icon is not ultimately rooted in art or imagination, but in Incarnation. In the Old Testament, the rationale for the prohibition against images of a particular sort was that God had not shown himself to the Israelites. “You saw no form.” (Deuteronomy)
In the New Covenant, God shows himself to the Church in the face of Christ. “If you’ve seen me you’ve seen the Father.” The Bride sees the face of the Bride Groom. She sees the form.
This isn’t just a Christological matter. The telos of salvation is the vision of God himself. The Christ Icon points to the fact that God is ultimately drawing men, not just to a profound conceptualization of the truth in the abstract, as in religions like Islam or Maimonidian Judaism, but to the joy of looking at Him as he knows himself. “Then we will see face-to-face.”
@Tennis Brah I’m in complete agreement that there are biblical foundations for the ecclesial doctrine of the Trinity. But I don’t think that would impress a Muslim. He would just say that there is categorically no legitimate foundation for denying monotheism. So the Christian has to explain to the Muslim that however much trinitarian distinctions may seem to contradict monotheism, ultimately they don’t stand opposed to one another. And maybe even more pointedly, he would have to explain how, despite all the prohibitions against worshiping creatures in the Law, Christians can justify worshiping the man Jesus. To the Muslim this appears, and you have to grant its superficial appearance, a plain contradiction.
I think this is very similar on a psychological level to the Catholic experience or the Orthodox experience of having to defend iconography to Protestants. To them the prohibition against making images of God for the purpose of worship is plainly contradicted by the Catholic/Orthodox practice of making images of God for the purpose of worship. But we would say the same thing to the Protestant that we would say to the Muslim, and frankly that the Protestant would say to the Muslim as well, which is that the Incarnation has radically changed things. We now worship a man from Nazareth. Prior to the Incarnation, that would have been idolatry. We now make images of the Holy One (because he has shown us his form) and venerate Him through them. Prior to the Incarnation, that would have been a violation of the commandment.
Excellent as always. I can’t wait for Michael Lofton’s response video. This is timely, as he recently put out a video defending Pope Francis for the Pachamama statue veneration. He shows a video of a woman referring to it as “our lady of the Amazon” in Spanish, and basically says that means it’s a depiction of Mary.
I asked him in the comments if the statue was made with the intent of being Mary or if it was made as Pachamama and repurposed into Mary. I didn’t get into this, but I was trying to parse out what makes something a statue or icon worthy of veneration-is it intent of the person venerating, is it what it was made as, is it consecrated, etc.
He replied that that is irrelevant to the accusation of idolatry, and that Catholics have long appropriated pagan elements into Christianity. I can’t see how venerating a representation of an Amazonian pagan goddess isn’t idolatry, but I’m sure he would respond that I’m incorrectly assuming something and that I should be more charitable.
When the highest authority is man, they can change the rules as they please
Sounds like Pagan repurposing to me. Shocker paganism gets downplayed and everyone who was "pagan" becomes Christians. I wonder what could go wrong.
Excellent presentation, clear and concise. Thank you so much!
This video was so powerful! I never knew the extent of the Icon Veneration position till now. I assumed that it was "something to add to beauty".
Seraphim Hamilton has 4 or 5 videos, each about an hour long directly addressing this video. I recommend watching those for a DEEP dive into why Ortlund is mistaken.
I am a Protestant believer who makes pictures of Christ and the saints. I have often been told throughout my life that it’s wrong of me to make pictures like these mainly because of how Catholics and other “traditional” Christians treat such images.
I never felt the temptation to bow down to my work or worship it. I know my pictures aren’t the real Jesus or saints, but representations of my interpretation of what I learn in the Bible. These pictures often help me remember important truths in Scripture.
I have filled a shelf in my room with paper cutouts showing the life of Jesus Christ. They’re one of the first things I see every morning. I have seen guests’ jaws drop when they see the cutouts. It’s honestly amazing what God’s gifts can do.
I can appreciate artwork as artwork, but if someone asks me to bow down to an icon of any biblical character, I would leave the place. That’s not for Christians to do. If people make artwork of Jesus and the saints for the purpose of veneration, I think they should stop, repent and never make such things again.
I do acknowledge how frequent the temptation to idolatry is, but from my personal experience, it seems to me that most people’s idols are *themselves* . They idolise their own tastes, things that make them happy. This is why the command is given to deny the self, stay away from idols (after talking a lot about how friendship with the world is enmity with God), &c. I understand that idolatry in the NT has a broader scope than simply making portraits of funny characters and performing rituals/showing respect to them.
Unfortunately, many who claim to be Christians do not seem to see the flaw in their logic about the distinction between bowing down to God and bowing down to pictures of who is supposed to be God or one of His servants. I think it’s okay to have pictures of Jesus in your home as decoration (like during Christmas when we make a Nativity scene) or reminders of Scripture, but it’s definitely wrong to do what our Catholic and Orthodox friends are doing with pictures.
I’m sure your art is beautiful. I agree with you 100% about the worshipping of oneself. I don’t know anyone that worships statues, but I sure know a lot who worship themselves.
How can you hold to his view but still make images?
Wondering how that is?
This is so good. And the time stamps so helpful
Seraphim Hamilton has 4 or 5 videos, each about an hour long directly addressing this video. I recommend watching those for a DEEP dive into why Ortlund is mistaken.
Silence pagan.
@@g.williams2047 🙄
As a catholic, I love how everything is sacramental. We experience God in the physical world that He made for us. I can pray by watching a sunset, watching the trees, or enjoying an icon painting. God wants us to Love Him, and while He gives us some rules to do so properly, He also gives us a creative spirit and an attraction to beauty that is absolutely theologically relevant.
@@xuniepyro7399I mostly agree with you, but this is very uncharitable.
This video is extremely thorough and well done, I really appreciated it.
Glad it was helpful!
Except for the part where Ortland demonstrates his ignorance of how doctrinal development works. Is he trying to say "Bad Catholics! You can't even use your own model correctly! " or is it more like, "Bad Catholics! You aren't adhering to Luther's Sacred Tradition of Sola Scriptura! " I mean, which is it? In conflating the two, he produced a nonsensical mess. Does he REALLY want to cite Origen for Christian wisdom apart from the Magisterium? Did you know that Origen removed his own family jewels because he took literally Jesus' admonition to pluck out an eye if it offends thee? There is so much to address... Honestly, this video is sloppy.
@@enshala6401 I think he’s representing how much OE and ROC simply justify idol worship very clearly. If you can’t see this, I’d encourage you to really let down your ego and pray about this.
@@batmanfan7506 I have studied, prayed, and reflected for decades on the Christian faith, and though I always need to pray more for the big challenges going on in my life, the subject of icons is most definitely not one of them. I am Palestinian, and icons are part of our culture, so iconoclasts are virtually racist to me. It's so unbelievably ignorant. We don't pray to a block of wood, and you guys representing it as such is really wrong. I don't understand how anyone can be so daft. Maybe you should pray about it yourself....? I mean, how would you feel if someone accused you of idolatry for your Bible worship?
@@enshala6401 you’re reaching real hard on that one haha
Everyone is telling me come watch this video. Hmm. There are many funny things and approaches here. The scholarly approach is surprising, because I have heard so many scholars tell us that the divinity of Christ, homoousion, that the Trinity is a similar form of accretion. In the same way, we are told that this or that book is a "late addition" to the Bible, etc. So much of this is irrelevant in my estimation, the question is the story of revelation itself. Why is the image not available to being a place of the revelation of God? What is the reason for the 2nd commandment? That is the question that should be asked. Then, the proposition that there is no scriptural distinction between strict worship, and lower kind of veneration is difficult to stomach. Are we to believe that the Hebrews were worshiping the name of God at the same level as God himself? The praising of the name is important because God revealed his name to us, and so the praising of the image becomes important for the same reason. This is not just "something that happened" but the form of revelation itself, moving in ever increasing power from heaven to earth. Whether this truth became clear to Christian in year 1 or year 700 is irrelevant.
Hi Jonathan! Nice to hear from you. Hope to interact further some time. Briefly, I would disagree that the divinity of Christ, Trinity, etc. are comparable to icon veneration in their development. The divinity of Christ is a theme or motif of the New Testament. He is frequently worshiped, explicitly declared God in the epistles, crucified for blasphemy in the gospels, acts with divine authority, etc. The development in understanding of both Christology and Trinity stems from this foundation. This is in contrast to icon veneration, which I showed not merely from the scholarship but also from historical evidence is opposed by the early Christians. Also, to clarify, I did not deny the distinction between worship and veneration as such. See 1:01:11. Thanks for commenting and perhaps we can talk on another occasion about some of your other points and the larger differences.
Would LOVE to see you guys have a conversation!!!
If later Christians can come up with new ideas, which you seem to be suggesting of the Trinity, then why are Baptists and Pentecostals incorrect? Beyond being outside of the "apostolic succession"?
Can’t wait to give this a listen! I’m just finishing up an intensive study on this topic. I think that this is a litmus test area, since it’s one of the clearest places where one thing was believed universally in 250, and quite another thing in 850.
Hope you find it useful! Let me know how it coheres with your own research, if you get a chance.
@@TruthUnites Will do. In fact, I'll send you the results of my investigation, if there's a good way of getting that to you. If not, I'll just post a link here. God bless.
Hi Lynn. Here is my take on this topic as a convert to Orthodoxy:
Veneration of icons is just the outward expression of the inward veneration of God’s work in the life of the Saints. If it isn’t an act of idolatry for Asians to bow to each other, or Europeans to kiss each other, or for a grieving wife to kiss a picture of her husband, why would it be in the case of those who became radiant vessels of the Holy Spirit?
The ultimate logic of why the 7th Ecumenical Council and the Orthodox Church today have for considering this practice necessary, is the same logic Protestants use to explain the Biblical verses that clearly state the necessity of works for salvation. It’s not that the act in itself saves you, but there is no way to explain how a person could have repented without the fruits of repentance, there’s no way someone truly loves God without expressing that love in actions, and there’s no way they can truly love God and fail to express love to those people through whom His presence most shined in the world.
@@Jy3pr6 Thanks for your kind explanation. I actually don't have anything at all against venerating icons myself, and I kind of like the practice. It's the historical evidence that has convinced me that we shouldn't practice it. You're welcome to check out my article series on the topic, linked in my reply to Gavin.
I go back to this video a lot. Its amazing how well your arguments stand against the massive amount of attempted refutations. I'm currently going through Suan's video and, while I really appreciate his charitable demeanor, I definitely don't find it too convincing.
thanks, glad you found this useful!