I’m sharing this video with lots of friends and I encourage everyone else to do the same. I hope this series and the book inspires conversations all over the world about how to properly take a stand for what we believe, while recognizing we don’t have to be hostile to those who disagree. Thank you Dr. Ortlund for stepping in the gap and getting the conversation going.
@@TruthUnites I know Trent Horn is going to respond to the live stream on CC. But Trent Horn made a video on 5 things Catholics should stop saying: one of his comments was its( only) by God's Grace not by Faith or works that one becomes free free from original sin. This in my mind does make it harder for me to view R. Catholics as Christians. Doesn't mean they don't exercise Faith later but infant baptism isn't by Faith of the infant. BTW I was baptized by my Presbyterian Uncle Pastor at 1.5 years old but later l received the Holy Spirit at age 6 years old. ; not by any baptism.
From a Catholic here, this has become one of my favorite channels. I disagree with you on much but I have learned so much from you and appreciate the raising of intellectual honesty among Christians. God bless you for your patience and charity!
Do you disagree primarily because your church disagrees and or you were born Catholic so that's what you believe? Or did you arrive at the disagreements after careful reading, study and prayer on the theological points?
@@Adam-ue2ig The last point. I take Truth very seriously and came to the conclusion the Catholic faith was true after reading, prayer, and watching many debates and videos.
A bearded pastor friend of mine was at a conference when another quite conservative man approached him in the service and said that the beard was offending him and hindering his worship. My friend, who like others often do, could have argued and resisted, but instead left in that moment, when to his nearby hotel room and shaved the beard off. Upon returning, the offended man, shocked at my friends response was moved greatly and that night encountered God in a new way in the service. Whether we are right or not, we are known by our fruits, namely love one for another. Thanks Gavin for great treatment of this issue
“A lot of the divisions among churches are because of pride, not because of holiness” Appreciated this highlight of how important it is to humbly seek unity with others who believe in God’s love.
I love this John Wesley quote: October 6, 1774. I met those of our society who had votes in the ensuing election, and advised them (1) to vote, without fee or reward, for the person they judged most worthy; (2) to speak no evil of the person they voted against; and (3) to take care their spirits were not sharpened against those that voted on the other side.
A few more topics: 1. Age of the earth 2. Spiritual gifts 3. Principles of worship 4. Views of the Lord's Supper 5. Views of Baptism 6. Issues in Eschatology (inaugurated eschatology, millennium, tribulation, rapture, etc.) 7. Hermeneutics (dispensational, covenant, etc.) 8. Political views (establishmentarianism, liberalism, libertarianism, etc.)
Also, you should add "women studying the Bible together without a man leading." I've known people who this is the reason they left their churches. (As in a Bible study together.)
I’ve been considering converting to Catholicism, and then stumbled upon your interview with Cameron. So thankful! Going to continue to dive deeper into actual facts before I make that kind of commitment.
Thanks for sharing that. I think you are very wise to take your time and really sift the evidence before making such a big decision. May the Lord guide you and bless you.
I converted to Catholicism because I had a happy Catholic education but did not really understand all their teachings (there was no RCI in those days). Then, over 20 years, as an adult, I realised many of their doctrines are false and not in line with the Inspired Word of God. the RCC is misleading at best and legal bondage, at worst.
After many years of being a "rogue Christian," I felt a push by the Holy Spirit to start attending church. I was raised evangelical and do not care for modern forms of church. I gravitate towards the more liturgical. I pondered Eastern Orthodoxy and even attended several services; I even considered Roman Catholicism and Episcopal, briefly. After watching many, many videos and debates, deep prayer, and looking at local churches, I decided on Confessional Lutheranism. Gavin's videos have been instrumental in that decision. I started attending last week and am taking catechises classes now and hope to be baptized before Christmas. I encourage those who are seeking to pray deeply and do some homework. I am far from being an expert, but believe I have made the right decision with guidance from God. I see that your post is from a year ago, and I am curious as to what path you chose to worship our Lord?
@@paulboerin173praise God. I am a 1689 London Baptist Confessional, Reformed Baptist tradition. I am so thankful to hear that you looked at the option, prayed and sought God and arrived at the true Gospel. We don’t agree on everything, but we agree on the most important item, the Gospel of the Lord of Glory
Newer Christian here, it’s been about a year and a half and I think the only thing that really annoys me that other Christians do is when they spew hate, hate, hate and spread divisive messages outside of the Church intentionally so. One of my closest brothers theologically is a Catholic (I’m Presbyterian) and we agree fundamentally on quite a few things but I respect him and love him. But when we disagree we’ll disagree respectfully so and try to back our ideas with scripture and philosophical anecdotes. Like you said, people are so focused on being right they forget to understand.
@@TruthUnites honoring God is paramount to our ever changing feelings. Finding true north in Jesus no matter how far off course we find ourselves. Unity seems far away, and the work is like untying stubbornly tight knots and discerning the running line from the tag line. You loosen knots well, and it will get easier, I pray, for you in Jesus. Good thing with your work here is that we can watch over again what we don't get the first time. Folks years from now will see your effort during crisis- but most importantly *God*
Gavin, Thank you for such a thoughtful, reflective post. I would love to have you tackle the issue of sexual ethics in the Church/LGBTQ issues; specifically as it relates to unity within affirming and non-affirming churches.
Pastor Gavin, thank you so much for this video. The section on sectarianism convicted me greatly. I appreciate how much the Spirit is working in you to put forth both love and truth. God bless.
Read your book on this a few months ago. Definitely a great read! I would recommend it to anyone. Thanks for a great video! Also, I sooo appreciate how you've segmented each video with the time stamps and topic. I always watch all the way through but it helps when I want to reference back to something!
Although I'm not a Calvinist... I'm just looking at the channels I'm subscribed to, and the majority people are Calvinist which is kind've funny to me. Most of those like you said, are not outwardly selling Calvinism, I know they are only because they plainly stated so, in my opinion they are just humble respectful men of God. Will second your point about social and political issues are diving family, friends and even the Church. Great video, would love to see you do a video with Anthony Rogers! Even better, tag team heavyweight debate, ORTLUND/ROGERS VS ALBRECHT/SHAMOUN. ;-)
I am a Cal-minian. I recognize that way greater minds than mine have grappled with such things. I believe that the Lord will be merciful to me if I live as though I chose to submit vs having been elected. The LORD is not bound by time, so He knows who are His. How He would have explained that to shepherds, fishermen, and tax collectors is not for me to second guess. Thanks for your ministry!
Can’t even express how much I love this video, how timely it was for me personally, and how much I enjoyed the capricious/capri sun reference! Thanks Dr. Ortlund!
What a great concept...I'm working on a system of church triage also. Here are the top tier elements 1. We must still provide donuts at sunday school even when there is a fellowship meal after church. 2. If the McCollums keep sitting in my family's pew, I'm switching churches 3. Veggietales are still canon even if Phil goes off into left field.
Great teaching Dr. Ortlund. Orthopraxy is just as important as Orthodoxy. Jesus said, "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another" (John 13:35).
Thanks for this video. I disagree with you about your ranking of sin and beliefs about marriage and metaphors for Christ and the church argument, but I will say, I love your work and your channel. You truly are a man of God and a breath of fresh air! You and one other person are like the only conservative Christians I will listen to on youtube. I value your contribution and have learned a lot from you in helping me to remain Protestant.
I've been in the process of discerning what tradition to belong to, and just wanted to say that I appreciate your intellectual curiosity/honesty and desire for unity on the Protestant side.
This one is my favorite so far! I'm a recently converted Christian in an interfaith marriage with someone exploring the Catholic church and sometimes fear and love can get mixed up in my motivations and "zeal" in certain conversations. Thanks for making this!
I have a thing with the word "interfaith." Maybe I'm saying this because I'm protestant, but Catholics and protestants are of the same faith, trinitarian Christianity. Muslims and Protestants or Catholics and Mormons are different faiths.
I think they’re saying that the other person isn’t a Christian yet but is exploring the Catholic Church. As in converting to Catholicism from a non-Christian faith.
Shayla for most of my marriage I was Catholic and my husband was protestant. We had many fights! I raised sons Catholic and even got remarried in Catholic church by a priest to bless it after we were married for 10 years. At 57 I walked away from the Catholic faith. My husband knew I was seeking Jesus, reading the Bible, etc. Pray for your husband, ask questions and have a Bible study together. You may be surprised. Mostly have patience and Love.
Thank God for pastor Gavin ministry, unity which was a prayer of Jesus while on earth, that we be one as He and the Father are One, 🙏 pastor Gavin for bringing our attention to love, love builds and not tear people apart just because they don't agree with us, let's speak the Word of God in a Loving way🙏🙏🙏
This is a message I needed to hear, and should have listened to (if it had been made) a long time ago. Dr. Gavin Ortlund is a spiritual surgeon, and I need to read the book.
A very important topic. You have presented your case in a gentle and loving manner, and I agree with you on this. I hope you continue to discuss topics such as this...it's not a sexy topic, but so important.
Your so right "die on the right hills". Some People tend to be so tight, rigid, or judgemental on the wrong hills. I love to read and have read so many different kinds of topics and authors that I don't necessarily agree with.
Such great content. I so agree with the immense importance for theological triage. You do a great job in explaining that. I just downloaded your book as well. Thank you.
Loving this book. Was just removed as a leader from my church because I wouldn’t endorse cessationism. I never made my view an issue but the church decided it was an essential doctrine to agree on in order to be a leader. So sad and heartbroken. For me it was a “3”. For the church it was a “2”. So hard to leave a church….😔
The triage model is unbiblical and quenches the Spirit which we are warned not to do. The Holy Spirit guides us into all truth, not doctrines of men put above the word of God. Our church follows this model and I have been persuaded by the Holy Spirit that it is spiritually stagnating our members. Paul said he wasn't guilty of any man's blood because he hadn't failed to teach the whole counsel of God. Jesus said man will not live by bread alone but by every word of God. All scripture is profitable for teaching, exhortation and doctrine. Churches who use this model put themselves at risk of arrested development because they are more likely to remain stuck in the elementary principles rather than maturing in Christ. I pray all who reads this will seek the Lord Jesus in prayer, humbly putting aside personal preferences. These types of devices are worldly in a vain attempt to create worldly peace.
@@heathers4961 Saying "The triage model is unbiblical and quenches the Spirit" doesn't make sense to me. How? "The Holy Spirit guides us into all truth." What if two people disagree? Issues like this exist. Which is led by the Holy Spirit? How does people showing each other grace through these disagreements cause spiritual stagnation? If anything, it limits spiritual stagnation because people are challenged in positions that they might have accepted uncritically. Believing that certain issues aren't as important don't mean you never talk about or study them.
Time-stamps 5:12 - varying severity of sin 5:44 - Westminster Confession of Faith 6:46 - Galatians 1 and Romans 14 7:37, 8:05 - is theological triage a modern, liberal concept? 9:04, 9:40 - John Calvin 9:27 - how to pronounce “capricious”, the Capri Sun connection. 12:20 - consequences of ignoring triage 13:28 - According to Gavin, “… having civil disagreement is counter-cultural.” 14:32 - Gavin talks about Calvinism
Thank you Gavin for this helpful video. Though I seem to disagree with you on certain political issues, you have been a HUGE help in my struggle with different traditions and wondering about my own salvation. I’ve taken some of these issues to heart and am going to strive to be more loving even in the face of severe disagreement.
Thank you! Dr Ortlund, it would be wonderful if you would make a video that criticizes John Henry Newman's theory of the development of Christian doctrine. Many Roman Catholics, when they fail on biblical and historical grounds, turn to the idea of doctrinal development as a last resort.
Hello Pastor Ortlund! I am an intern with the campus ministry Cru, and I had the opportunity to give a seminar on “levels of belief” at our Fall Retreat last weekend. Your book and articles on theological triage were very helpful to me as prepared for it. Beforehand I was familiar with the Convictions, Persuasions, and Opinions model, but I actually prefer your four-rank model better. Thank you for all that you do!
Thank you. It was Malcolm Muggeridge who was so critical of false ecumenism- it’s easy to agree when you believe so little - they believe so little that there is little to disagree about. And thank you for mentioning Richard Baxter - a beautiful writer.
Gavin, thanks for being such a great model as a peacemaker. You've helped me a lot on Protestant v. Catholic issues. But your charitable and gracious spirit has helped me the most. When you mentioned Obama in the other video, initially, I was turned off by it. But I quickly realized that was my own immaturity. Thanks for helping me grow!! Keep of the great work! You are having a huge impact!!
You're a Calvinist? Oh no. Lol jk I love this video. As an individual who didn't grow up in the church, I never understood the division amongst brethren because of doctrine. The schism and splinters within the body of Christ has caused me so much grief recently. I thank you for this video & all of your ministry brother. I will definitely be supporting your ministry and buying the book. I appreciate your zeal for God and the peace between lines. It would be awesome to have a conversation about this topic 🙏🏾 I believe it would be very edifying. May God bless you abundantly brother.
2000 years later and we Christians are still handing out love as if there isn’t enough to go around. We/I love being the judge, jury, and executioner instead of even thinking about taking on a paper cut, let alone being crucified.
I really appreciate this approach, and in many ways it mirrors my own. I cannot fathom that I am right about everything, even fairly major things. That's why I need to be humble and trust both in the Holy Spirit to reveal and in others to teach me. I believe a lot of people can differ in opinion about many fairly major doctrine and hold those differing opinions in good faith and conviction. I think that is the key. There are some positions that I cannot in good faith believe are true, yet I know and honour others that can. Whoever may be right is less important than our faithful submission to the Lord and what he has revealed to us.
Gavin your way of talking speaks so deeply to me. I've often heard people 'majoring in the majors' but disagreeing what the majors are. For example I spoke to someone a few weeks back said 'oh they aren't a Christian as you and I would be' and I was like but if our Christology [i.e Jesus was God/Son of God and rose from the dead] is along the right lines [doctrine does matter though eh, there's a bigger story and meaning outworking. Its about the outworking of the Christian life] I studied History and English lit so I think beauty meaning are so under utilized, and I work in change process so the two parts of me are at odds I guess but if we can walk in unity the world will be amazed. Outlining what the majors [or should be] would be great
I think the balance between doctrinal minimalism and doctrinal sectarianism is crucial so we avoid shallow Christianity (with a bland ‘ecumenism’) on the one hand and idolizing our confessions on the other. Both these extremes can be dangerous.
I am somewhat new of a listener, but as someone trained in triage from the perspective of a first responder, I think an important factor that also plays a role here is that it also matters how close the person is who has a theological disagreement. For example, 1. Spouse 2. Church member 3. Friend outside of church and 4. Stranger outside of church. I am more concerned about a smaller theological difference between my wife and I than I would be about a major theological difference with a complete stranger, say in the TH-cam Comments for example 😂 But great insight, I really pray that this is an area where more believers will study and grow!
YES!!! THANKYOU! There are some things that have some wiggle room. I'm a confessional conservative Lutheran, but I have been for (knowledge sake) reading the westminister confession, which is calvanist and reformed. While there are differences especially in nuances, all and all there is quite a bit agreement as well. I have no problem calling reformed brothers and sisters. I indeed disagree with some of their understanding, but ironically most are just minor nuances in the WAY it is explained. Like can a true christain lose their salvation (Lutheran view) vs those who do lose, weren't true christains to begin with (reformed view). But both warn against sin and apostasy and teach repentance and good works in the Christian life. Both teach if you fall in unrepentant sin and apostasy, unless you repent you will lose your salvation. And one can find biblical support for both concepts.
Praise the Lord my dear Brother. This is such a great way to tackle issues which have the Body of Christ falling apart. In the Ministry I have come across so many who debate Salvation or the means by which we receive the Gift. How Acts 2:38 includes the Baptism of the Holy Ghost and the Evidence thereof while others believe Romans 10:9/Ephesians 2:8. I'd love to get your thoughts on this. Thank you again for all the work you are doing for the Kingdom.
Hey Gavin!!! I’m wondering if you’d ever do a video on the “new perspective on Paul”. This new movement is very troubling to me and i would love your informed insight.
Thanks for the suggestion, I did touch on this briefly in my video on justification (let me know if you cannot find it), but I will consider doing it again at greater length.
Would really appreciate it if you'd get off the fence and finally tell us your preference of carpet colour in a church. Then we can know for certain whether or not you're a Democrat. You can't hide from the big issues forever Ortlund.
Thank you for the video, I read your book on the topic last year and found it very insightful. Since you asked for recommendations, I will say one area I wished would have been covered more extensively is how to navigate the thorny theological issues that arise from the turbulent cultural and political environment we find ourselves in. I understand not wanting to touch these topics with a ten foot pole, and I don't bring them up to be inflammatory but because they are things that have honestly disturbed my soul. Some examples would be: 1) If I am convinced that Critical Race Theory, taken to its logical conclusion, undermines the very heart of the gospel, and a fellow Christian with whom I previously enjoyed a large degree of theological unity comes to believe that CRT concernes are largely a myth constructed from the white privilege of people like me to avoid taking responsibility for systemic racism, how should I proceed? 2) If I truly believe that while Christians are under no obligation to support, advocate or vote for any political party, to do so for one that consistently supports zero restrictions on abortion and giving puberty blockers to otherwise healthy children (to name only two issues), should at the very least be a cause for church discipline; while many well educated Christians I've admired in various ways in the past seem to think it's not a big deal, or that I'm being divisive for mentioning it, how do I navigate that situation? 3) How should I deal with deconstructing Christians or someone like an Andrew or Spencer Klavan who seem to have been genuinely effected by Christ but are either sliding or have outright abandoned the biblical position on things like sexual ethics, which I still believe to be very important from a biblical perspective? 4) A slightly different but related issue: How does one determine one's biblical responsibilities in an increasingly godless society? What lines must not be crossed in the workplace for example, even at great risk to one's job? These are all things that have been heavy on my heart the past several years. Again, I understand if they are far too touchy to tackle in this series, but I do wish there would be more guidance around these issues from a charitable perspective in times like these.
Thanks for these suggestions. One of the challenges is that I have less training/expertise on cultural matters than theological matters, generally speaking. But I agree we cannot avoid them. I will prayerfully consider which ones to address, and how, and when.
Catholic here. It pains me so often to see my Catholic brothers and sisters completely counteract the truth I believe we are blessed to have and share with all by covering it with pride and self-righteousness. I’ve been guilty of this too. Thank you for bringing this problem out into the light of Christ where we can all heal!
Hi Gavin. Could you please model theological triage for us on the topics of cessationism/continuationism, and of infant baptism? Perhaps also Calvinism vs other soteriologies. Thanks so much for your very valuable content!
What helps me in almost every thought of interpretation, is that I visualise graphs and diagrams. I think you'd do well to illustrate what you speak of with visual anchors. This, of course, does not have to be flashy.
Thanks for doing these videos, Gavin. I’m hoping you can address theological triage and the Trinity. This seems like an obvious #1 issue, as the church has always confessed, but I’d like to hear precisely why that is the case and why has the church said that salvation is impossible apart from a true belief in the Trinity. Thanks!
Hey Gavin, I just have one concern: it seems this unity is more a matter of personality (whether you believe it be sectarianism or minimalism the problem(or at least, the main problem)). For me, I think it is quite obvious that the church, her beliefs, and her people, are becoming quite minimalists, at least in America, where we do not have to die for what we believe in. Christ and His Gospel are the crowning jewel of the Scriptures as a whole, I would think it unwise, especially in a culture that is now disintegrating and attacking every facet of that formerly held belief system inside the walls and outside them, to act as if what is going on is the "sectarians" fault (also this is a multi-faceted problem, but I still believe the sectarian is the least of our issues). I really appreciate your point of view on the issue because I think your bringing up good issues for the church to deal with, but on the issue of what is to be done, because of either personality or our differing observation of social phenomena, I just cannot jump on board for now (Christ-like militancy against something that is urgent and pressing, even if non-essential, because the Gospel rests on all Scripture as if a crowning jewel, I think is called for in some circumstances - ex. Christ vis-à-vis the Pharisees)).
Thanks for your comment George. I do not agree that seeking unity is a matter of personality; I think it is a biblical mandate and a matter of theological discernment and love. But I do agree that it is appropriate to be concerned about urgent and pressing issues in the church.
@@TruthUnites I agree with all the above charity, love, and unity are of the utmost importance, but, I suppose, what I was trying to get at is at what time does it prove to be Christ-like to become sectarian to a degree even in the non-essentials, if ever (I hope you will tackle this in a later video)? I would argue when members that claim to be of the Kingdom, especially in positions of authority, mislead the people and close the Kingdom to them because of incorrect teaching are Pharisaic, no? Given the current cultural climate - this is where personality comes in and what one believes is the most urgent of questions to tackle for our times (so not unity is a matter of personality but given the spirit of the times what must be fought over tooth and nail) - how do we as a Church react? Because, in my opinion, it would be dishonest even concerning the non-essentials for the Church to have a laissez faire attitude. (Truly I may be misunderstanding the nuances of your argument, but it sounds to me that you are saying the non-essentials though important are not worth schism. And, to me, in times of great upheaval (truly exceptional upheaval because this is the first time in history an entire society, not one person here or there, is rejecting transcendent belief and mores), one has to understand the non-essentials of Scripture are all part of a greater whole, each informing the other, which prepares the reader for the climax - The Gospel) . God Bless.
@@Georgem7307 Thanks George. Yes, there are certainly times when people become Pharisaical and this calls for a different response. This would be in the realm of the first-rank disagreements, generally. I will cover this in the next video more!
Dr. Ortlund, Historically, what determines what we might call Fundamental vs. Non-fundamental Doctrines? I agree these are valid categories, but how do we determine the matter? What is the standard?
I agree that murder is worse than gossip from the perspective that intentionally taking someone's life is inexcusable, but sometimes gossip kills too, in a different way.
Well, there are some cultural and political issues that are related to doctrine. For example, are unborn humans persons with the Imago Dei? Is marriage exclusive to men and women?
I think I just started going through case studies on specific topics (baptism, Calvinism, etc.) for the "how to" -- hope that clarifies. Sorry for any miscommunication.
This is a huge burden on my heart as well. It has become more of a burden I think in the midst of our "pandemic & Trumpian" context of the last few years. I believe we've done inestimable damage to our witness to Christ by aligning with un-Christian attitudes and causes but also by "biting and devouring" one another. Even the unbelievers around us have enough of the intact image of God remaining to know that is not Christ-like. We absolutely must rise above this base impulse to demonize and destroy anyone who disagrees with us. It truly would be countercultural and a great witness to the surpassing worth of Christ for us to value love and unity above the hubris driven impulse to be right at all costs. Thanks for your ministry and model for all of us in our own ministry efforts.
Hi Gavin. Just wanted to drop a line ask if you would consider sharing your thoughts soon about womens' roles / complimentarianism as a triage issue. I've been eager to hear your thoughts since you mentioned in one of your videos that you intended to do that. But of course, continue to listen to the Spirit in what to prioritize. I'll trust your judgment. Thank you very much for your ministry!
Didn't plan to watch this until I saw "confirmation" at my Presbyterian church. Topics to dive into for this series: church membership, ordination/apostolic succession, laying on of hands, church government. It seem like if I get these wrong it's plausible I could be in a cult. A Christian cult yes, but a cult none the less and not a parish.
Did the Complementarian/Egalitarian video end up happening? I recall you did an interview video on the subject but wasn't sure if that was the same thing mentioned here and can't find another.
1) Trinitarian theology. 2) The sufficiency of the work of Christ for the repentant who remains in Christ. 3). The requirement to stay in Christ and be obedient to Him. (Rejection of autonomian/antinomianism.) 4) Correct division between Creator and creation. Rejection of New Age, NAR, gnosticism. 5) Authority of scripture and rejection of progressive reinterpretation. 6) The reading of the Word, the taking of the Eucharist, and the observance of baptism. That's the center of the majors for me.
I'm also interested in how the reformers "do" triage via sola scriptura. How can we be comfortable with a single mans interpretation or our own to determine what is major or minor. "But here some one perhaps will ask, Since the canon of Scripture is complete, and sufficient of itself for everything, and more than sufficient, what need is there to join with it the authority of the Church’s interpretation? For this reason - because, owing to the depth of Holy Scripture, all do not accept it in one and the same sense, but one understands its words in one way, another in another; so that it seems to be capable of as many interpretations as there are interpreters. For Novatian expounds it one way, Sabellius another, Donatus another, Arius, Eunomius, Macedonius, another, Photinus, Apollinaris, Priscillian, another, Iovinian, Pelagius, Celestius, another, lastly, Nestorius another. Therefore, it is very necessary, on account of so great intricacies of such various error, that the rule for the right understanding of the prophets and apostles should be framed in accordance with the standard of Ecclesiastical and Catholic interpretation". -St. Vincent of Lerins
10 months late but here is how I would view it: the differences, while important, matter a whole lot less if everyone takes it every week. Obviously memorialism can lead to infrequent giving of the sacrament, which is my main substantive disagreement. The early church fathers exhort believers in their letters that they should partake whenever they meet
This may not be an issue that merits a video, but I am wrestling with the triage status of the issue of biblical inerrancy/infallibility. As someone who now holds a view of Scripture basically identical to CS Lewis, I feel a lot of tension in my knowledge that many evangelicals would hold my views to be deeply dangerous to the church. In many ways I am still an inerrantist at heart; I just have come to be convinced intellectually that I cannot interpret the Bible that way. Should I be cast out of evangelicalism? I certainly do not want to be. And my doctrinal stances have changed very little since giving up inerrancy--like Lewis, I have no desire in the world to slide into liberalism or progressive Christianity, which I find to be a grave danger.
I don't think we should divide over any doctrinal issues. "Why does thou judge thy brother?" "Is Christ divided?" If someone wants to divide from me, that's their problem. (I'm low church though - very low.) I don't even think we should divide from unbelievers. We are called not to be separated from the world, but to be leaven within the world. "Suffer both to grow together.. ."
@10:41 Ironic that John Calvin was brought up with relatively tolerant quotes, when in essence he was not tolerant at all. John Calvin was a prominent figure in the Protestant Reformation, known for his strict theological views and his influence on the city of Geneva. While he did not personally carry out executions, he was a key figure in the religious and political climate of Geneva, which led to the persecution and punishment of those who deviated from the established doctrine. One of the most notable cases is that of Michael Servetus, a Spanish theologian who was burned at the stake in 1553 for heresy. Although Calvin did not have the sole authority to order Servetus' execution, he played a significant role in his arrest and trial. Calvin believed that Servetus' views were dangerous and heretical, and he used his influence to ensure that Servetus faced the harshest punishment. Other individuals who were exiled or faced persecution during Calvin's time in Geneva include: * Jacques Gruet: A French Protestant who was beheaded in 1547 for criticizing Calvin's teachings. * Jerome Bolsec: A French physician and theologian who was exiled from Geneva in 1551 for his views on predestination. * Sebastian Castellio: A French humanist and theologian who was also exiled from Geneva in 1553 for his criticism of Calvin's stance on religious tolerance. It is important to note that the religious climate of 16th-century Europe was characterized by intolerance and persecution of those who held dissenting views. Calvin's actions, while controversial, were not entirely out of line with the prevailing attitudes of the time. However, his legacy remains complex and debated, with some viewing him as a rigid and intolerant figure, while others see him as a reformer who sought to uphold the purity of the Christian faith. Personally, I see him as rigid, intolerant to any theology he didn't hold, even if it was revealed in Scripture. He upheld his version of purity, all others be damned.
Could you do a triage video on the Trinity? I believe in the triune nature of God, but I'm not as confident in it as everyone else seems to be. Also, I don't think most christians understand it as well as they think they do. If I asked the various believers in my life to explain the trinity, I think about a third of them would come up with some sort of partialistic or modalistic explanation. Are these people heretics for not understanding?
A very interesting video indeed. I'm slowly going through your book on this subject too. I'd like some clarity on someone being wrong and yet not evil. Granted, being wrong doesn't necessarily mean someone is evil but it is often the case that ones suppression of the truth of God in unrighteousness leads to a darkened understanding (Rom 1). IOW, their reasoning stems from their morality. How you reconcile these two truths?
@@TruthUnites yes. How do you determine that which is a Romans 1 issue? There are numerous sins listed in Romans 1 that stems from this suppression of God.
Is Dr. Ortland a Calvinist?! If there is no free will there is no hill to die on. So many videos, so little time...I find instead of choosing videos to watch I'm forced to reject videos in order to bring down the number. Calvinism is a minor good reason to reject but anti papacy is a major good reason to listen which puts Dr. O on the watch later (maybe) list.
As much as I disagree with the notion that all sins are equal - I suspect the impulse to hold that view stems from the understanding that all sin, no matter how small, leads to separation from God. God cannot look upon sin so in that sense there is no greater or smaller sins because God cannot abide by any of them. But what the believer doesn't seem to realize is that the original statement conflates the manifest presence of God with the consequences of sin which is an important separation to uphold.
Triage does not work for many things specifically what God has called evil and what he has called good. Sponsoring or supporting something evil is not in the realm of triage. Example pastor Alistair Begg counseling a grandmother to attend her Tran grand child’s “wedding” ceremony.
Sometimes the thing that make me reallyy reallyyy jealous with the Catholics is this: If you convert to Catholicism. That's it. Now you are part of a one church. Everyone in that church is your brothers and sisters. They will be your family, and you can unite together. Even if a Catholic may debate another Catholic they would still able to go to church together and take communion together on Sunday. But if you convert to Protestantism, you would find many many war, debate, and division between denominations. See the point? Let's say... a Catholic meet another Catholic friend after he finished debating a Protestant, that friend would cheer him. But if a Protestant meet another Protestant after he finished debating a Catholic in that circumstance, *they can have another messy debate between them.* This is the reason why I don't really like those so-called discernment ministries. Usually they throw too many babies out of the bathwater. Even some of them are the kind of people that hold firm to a Theological position and then simply condemning other Christians for believing another thing. *"You are a heretic if you don't believe in predestination."* *"You are a false teacher if you make fellowship with Egalitarian churches."* *"You are unrepentant if you deny young earth creationism."* *"You are wolf in sheep clothing if you don't teach rapture."* *"You are a crazy pagan mysticist if you support Charismatic gifts and speaking in tongues."* *"You are a blasphemous quencher of the Spirit if you believe in cessationism."* *"You are unbeliever denying God's word if you embrace religious freedom."* They said all of it in the name of "defending the truth boldly and rebuking false teachings". A Catholic will always be brothers and sisters with other Catholics. But could a Protestant consider (at least all conservative Protestants) as their brother and sisters in Christ??? Not necessarily 😭. They love to fight without right manner and condemn other Christians as they are unbelievers 😞. Therefore I really grateful for people like you. Who are charitable and able to embrace other Christians as your brothers and sisters in Christ as long as they are still orthodox in certain level (like for the primary issues) And finally this is for my Protestants brothers and sisters who read this: Guys, even if you don't want to consider Catholics as your family in Christ, AT LEAST DON'T START WAR ALL THE TIME AND ANATHEMAZING (YES, some of you did it) OTHER PROTESTANTS JUST BECAUSE OF MINOR THEOLOGICAL DISAGREEMENT. I just tired with all of it 😞😞😭😭😭
Trying to think what Hills I am willing to die on: 1) There is only One True God, and no other. 2) The Doctrine of the Trinity. 3) The Divinity AND Humanity of Jesus (Fully God, Fully Man). 4) His Virgin Birth 5) His Sinless Life 6) His Atoning Death on the Cross. 7) His Burial 8) His Physical/Bodily Resurrection on the Third Day. 9) His Appearances to, and Commissioning of, the Apostles as His witnesses. 10) His Ascension to Heaven where He sits at the Right Hand of God Almighty. 11) His Future Return 12) The Coming Judgment. 13) The Everlasting Punishment that awaits Unbelievers (i.e. a Literal Hell). 14) That Salvation is Found in no other name, than Christ Jesus. 15) That Salvation is by Grace through Faith, and not by Works. 16) Credobaptism (i.e. Adult Believers' Baptism), by immersion (whenever possible) as the only valid form of Baptism*. 17) That Baptism Saves, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (i.e. Baptismal Regeneration is the normative means through which God regenerates a repentant believer). 18) The Real Presence of Christ in the Bread and Wine (though I do not try and ascertain how this Mystery is done, I simply trust God). 19) That the Bread used in Communion is to be Unleavened. 20) That the gifts of the Holy Spirit continue to our day, and that we are to neither forbid the speaking in tongues, nor despise prophecy. Though all things are to be done in an orderly fashion. Speaking in tongues is not the only sign that someone has received the Holy Spirit, but rather we should look for the fruit of the Spirit in a person's life as the only true sign of regeneration. 21) That Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, that He tasted death for every man, giving His life as a ransom for all, and that He would have all men to saved. 22) That Determinism (and Compatibilism) are completely foreign to the teachings of Scripture, and make God the Author of Sin. No Christian taught any such doctrine anywhere before (approximately) the year 400, and it should be fully and wholly rejected. 23) The idea of the Papacy is wholly the invention of men. 24) The veneration of images and icons is completely foreign to the Scriptures, and to Christianity, and despite the protests of those who bow before such things, they are a violation of the 10 Commandments, and are to be wholly rejected. 25) That anyone who says that they know Christ (i.e. that they are a Christian) but do not keep His Commandments, is a liar and the truth is not in them. see 1st John 2:3-4 26) Without Holiness no one shall see the Lord. For whilst we are saved by Grace through Faith, and not by our works, a true Christian who is regenerated by the Spirit will bear fruit in keeping with their repentance and the new life that they have in Christ. 27) Anyone who returns to the things of the world, living in and practicing unrepentant sin, if they are to die in such a state, will have made shipwreck their faith, having forfeited the Salvation that Christ won for them. 28) Elders/Bishops/Pastors MUST meet the requirements set out in Scripture, and this includes being men (i.e. there are no female Pastors, or Teachers of Doctrine in the Church of Christ). and these two should be covered under general holiness and obedience to Christ, but because they are such key issues in today's world, I'll spell them out here: 29) All Sex outside of the Heterosexual union of Husband and Wife is sin. This includes but is not limited to sleeping around and having casual sex, and all forms of homosexual (gay, lesbian, etc.) sex. 30) Abortion is murder (always, and without exception). I suppose there are many more, but this is already longer than I imagined it would be at first, so I'll leave it there. *I am currently studying the introduction of infant baptism into the Church, and wonder if there is not a place for it, in the case of children who are sick, though I am not yet convinced of this. *EDIT: Just to be clear, I do not automatically dismiss a Brother or Sister as a heretic if the disagree with me on some of the above points. Rather these are points that I believe to be true and worth contending for, even if it means that others will cast me out. I would still do mission alongside someone who was baptized as an infant, for instance ... I would just tell them they need to repent and be baptized whilst I'm at it.* ;) XD
fascinating list! So including credobaptism (16), does this mean you anathematize Augustine and all the medieval church? Or perhaps you have a different definition of what is a "hill to die on" than I do....
@@TruthUnites What I mean by "Hill to Die on" is a position that I am not willing to compromise on, though I use it in a defensive (not offensive) sense. Or said differently, I will stand my ground on these Doctrines even if it means every other church anathematizes me. Though I do not use it to mean that I would anathematize someone else. And whilst some of these points are absolute points of division (such as the Nature of Christ, and of God, etc.), others are certainly less so (though there is a point at which I would divide over them). I could, for instance, attend a Baptist Church that allowed Freedom of Conscience on say Baptismal Regeneration, I would not, however, attend a Baptist Church that expressly taught against and condemned Baptismal Regeneration.
@@beowulf.reborn Thanks for clarifying that! I would say that we should never compromise our views, no matter whether they are of greater or lesser importance. When I speak of "hills to die on," or first-rank issues, I am thinking of issues the demarcate orthodoxy as distinct from heresy. Just to clarify my own usage.
If Machen could come back today he would immediately recognize, and comment, on how disregarding some of the “lesser” messages in the Bible have now compromised the Gospel itself. The Gospel message is to accept Christ as Lord and repent of your sins, that is to acknowledge, in humility, all those sins recognizable in your life. We now live in an environment where most churches have embraced a “Seeker Friendly” mentality where many sinful lifestyles will not be challenged or confronted because of the potential pushback. It has led to a secularization of churches and will continue to compromise God’s message. Even though this is just your first video of a series, I am concerned over its direction. Maybe my concern is unwarranted. We will see as this series progresses. One thing I would emphasize to you is that you need to rely more on scripture and not like the way you did when you pulled out Philippians 3:15. Like many verses, it can be taken out of context if not read with the surrounding verses. Keep in mind, Philippians 3:17-19 states “Brothers, join in imitating me, and keep your eyes on those who walk according to the example you have in us. For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, WITH MINDS SET ON EARTHLY THINGS.” The reason for the emphasis…..it is impossible to deny that Americans, in all our abundance, have our minds on earthly things.
Machen was facing incredible compromise in his own day, but he recognized that was all the more a reason to do triage. We must distinguish between a Christian brother or sister who is in error vs. outright heresy. If you don't like triage, you have a problem with Jesus, who spoke of the weightier matters of the law, and lesser and greater degrees of punishment for different errors. I mentioned numerous Scriptures that you did not interact with, such as Romans 14.
@@TruthUnites I appreciate that you have a desire to limit the division currently being experienced in the church. I do not like the division either. However, the division we are currently dealing with is a secularization of the church. We are giving acceptance to sinful lifestyles for the sake of attendance. Even at my church they do not want to address certain corrupt lifestyles from the pulpit and choose to save them for “behind closed door” discussions. But those discussions only occur is the one living that lifestyle approaches leadership. Our leaders never take the initiative and ignore the influence that sinner has on the people around them at church, propagating an acceptance of those lifestyles. I also find it interesting that, instead of addressing my critique of your use of Philippians, you change direction and ask me to address Romans 14. I will be glad to do so, but ignoring my point only infers concession.
@@TruthUnites As for Romans 14, the entire chapter is referencing eating habits. There is also a slight nod to the holiness of certain days of the week, which opens a very thin door to other rather insignificant issues not intended to divide Christians. One thing that is clear, however, is the reference of doing things unto the Lord. Our focus should be the Lord our God and His desire for our life. However, we are to confront others in the church who are openly sinning and unrepentant. Matthew 18:15-17, Galatians 6:1, 1 Timothy 5:20, James 5:19-20 are all example. You could even go back to Nathan approaching David in reference to Bathsheba. Clearly there are right ways, and wrong ways to approach the sinner, but I think it is clear that we are not supposed to ignore the subject. It is also clear that Paul had no problem publicly speaking out against sinful lifestyles either, which leads me to believe that they should be spoken from the pulpit of churches as well. All scripture should be spoken from the pulpit, both for our edification and conviction. We live in a fallen world, we are supposed to be the light that shines in the darkness.
@@craigfield9037 Thanks for responding. I am just heading out the door at the moment so cannot give your comments a response, sorry about that. I hope you will keep watching and perhaps become more open to triage through the series!
Orthodox here, I wish all protestants were as understanding of historical dialogue. As a former protestant I was always turned away from history, its all catholic and all a dark age. This is my challenge for protestants as the unity of all historically divided churches should be our goal and desire. For us, unity doesnt come from just having some of the right doctrines, but also submission to the historical and visible church found in the new testament. Id like to hear your take on all the verses in the new testament commanding us to believe the same things and be of one mind, and coupled with the boundaries in the new testament of the church where those that leave were never part of them or being in relationship to those bishops the apostles ordained and commanded us to submit to. It does seem through the 7 eccumenical councils the church was victorious and united against heresey that we can all agree on (some dont I understand). Christ and his theanthropic body is a primary issue for us. How do you foresee unity with this hill to die on for all of the Eastern Churches that long for unity under the headship of Christ?
The triage model is unbiblical and quenches the Spirit which we are warned not to do. The Holy Spirit guides us into all truth, not doctrines of men put above the word of God. Our church follows this model and I have been persuaded by the Holy Spirit that it is spiritually stagnating our members. Paul said he wasn't guilty of any man's blood because he hadn't failed to teach the whole counsel of God. Jesus said man will not live by bread alone but by every word of God. All scripture is profitable for teaching, exhortation and doctrine. Churches who use this model put themselves at risk of arrested development because they are more likely to remain stuck in the elementary principles rather than maturing in Christ. I pray all who reads this will seek the Lord Jesus in prayer, humbly putting aside personal preferences. These types of devices are worldly in a vain attempt to create worldly peace.
The hill I die on is the gospel. Being born again. I don't understand why you are so soft on this issue. You gloss over what the Catholics and orthodox believe. These people aren't saved and I don't understand why you can't see that.
@@TruthUnites because from an institutional level they deny the simple gospel. Jesus paid the price for their sins yet they deny it. They add tons of steps and works to that simple truth. Yes an individual Catholic or Orthodox could be saved but it would be despite their churches evil and anti Christian teachings. I hope that answer is clear.
@@cammyg7773 Unfortunately, you preach another Gospel as Holy Scripture teaches we must cooperate with God's saving grace and repent and bear fruit and forgive others and love one another and persevere to the end to be saved! The Son of Man shall give to each according to one's works or lack of works as Jesus Christ and Paul and Peter, teach! For even if one has ALL FAITH, but does not LOVE, IT IS USELESS! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink
@@cammyg7773 I am glad to hear you acknowledge they can saved. I agree. I'm not sure how that squares with your original comment that "these people aren't saved," or why, then, you accuse me of being "so soft" in my characterization of these traditions. You would need to articulate something specific. I would encourage you to engage Catholic and Orthodox theology more carefully. Not even the Reformers wrote them off or denied they could be a part of the church.
@@TruthUnites if you cannot see how bad Catholic and Orthodox theology is then that's on you. It doesn't take a doctor to see that it is leading people to hell. The facts are. There are no good people. We all need to turn to Jesus and trust in him to save us. Not a particular church or branch of Christianity. Jesus said it is finished before he died on the cross because he paid our debt. He paid it all. Any person can repent and truly trust in Christ alone to be saved. The problem is when you add all of the extra steps you have created a false religion with a false God. The first commandment is to not put any other gods before the one true God. That's what the majority of Catholics and Orthodox are doing. They have created a false version of the true God who judges them based on their works not on their submission to him. John Macarthur, Mike Winger, and Ray Comfort would be good examples of famous biblical Christians. I would suggest anybody who reads this find a good Bible based church in your local community though and seek God. The internet is full of questionable (Christian) channels.
I’m sharing this video with lots of friends and I encourage everyone else to do the same.
I hope this series and the book inspires conversations all over the world about how to properly take a stand for what we believe, while recognizing we don’t have to be hostile to those who disagree.
Thank you Dr. Ortlund for stepping in the gap and getting the conversation going.
Thank you, friend.
@@TruthUnites I know Trent Horn is going to respond to the live stream on CC.
But Trent Horn made a video on 5 things Catholics should stop saying: one of his comments was its( only) by God's Grace not by Faith or works that one becomes free free from original sin.
This in my mind does make it harder for me to view R. Catholics as Christians.
Doesn't mean they don't exercise Faith later but infant baptism isn't by Faith of the infant.
BTW I was baptized by my Presbyterian Uncle Pastor at 1.5 years old but later l received the Holy Spirit at age 6 years old. ; not by any baptism.
From a Catholic here, this has become one of my favorite channels. I disagree with you on much but I have learned so much from you and appreciate the raising of intellectual honesty among Christians. God bless you for your patience and charity!
Thanks a lot Andres, glad to be connected!
Do you disagree primarily because your church disagrees and or you were born Catholic so that's what you believe? Or did you arrive at the disagreements after careful reading, study and prayer on the theological points?
@@Adam-ue2ig The last point. I take Truth very seriously and came to the conclusion the Catholic faith was true after reading, prayer, and watching many debates and videos.
@@andressanchez3798 I came to the opposite conclusion in terms of areas of disagreement.
This is such an important contribution to our witness to the world and to our intra-church relationships with each other. Thank you brother!
A bearded pastor friend of mine was at a conference when another quite conservative man approached him in the service and said that the beard was offending him and hindering his worship. My friend, who like others often do, could have argued and resisted, but instead left in that moment, when to his nearby hotel room and shaved the beard off. Upon returning, the offended man, shocked at my friends response was moved greatly and that night encountered God in a new way in the service. Whether we are right or not, we are known by our fruits, namely love one for another. Thanks Gavin for great treatment of this issue
“A lot of the divisions among churches are because of pride, not because of holiness”
Appreciated this highlight of how important it is to humbly seek unity with others who believe in God’s love.
Lately, victriole over OSAS and KJ Bible only.
Hills i will die on: divinity of Christ, resurrection of Christ, my pledge (submission) to God, and authority of holy text.
I love this John Wesley quote:
October 6, 1774. I met those of our society who had votes in the ensuing election, and advised them (1) to vote, without fee or reward, for the person they judged most worthy; (2) to speak no evil of the person they voted against; and (3) to take care their spirits were not sharpened against those that voted on the other side.
A few more topics:
1. Age of the earth
2. Spiritual gifts
3. Principles of worship
4. Views of the Lord's Supper
5. Views of Baptism
6. Issues in Eschatology (inaugurated eschatology, millennium, tribulation, rapture, etc.)
7. Hermeneutics (dispensational, covenant, etc.)
8. Political views (establishmentarianism, liberalism, libertarianism, etc.)
thanks for the suggestion!
Also, you should add "women studying the Bible together without a man leading." I've known people who this is the reason they left their churches. (As in a Bible study together.)
I’ve been considering converting to Catholicism, and then stumbled upon your interview with Cameron. So thankful! Going to continue to dive deeper into actual facts before I make that kind of commitment.
Thanks for sharing that. I think you are very wise to take your time and really sift the evidence before making such a big decision. May the Lord guide you and bless you.
Did you see Joe’s interview on Cam’s channel?
I converted to Catholicism because I had a happy Catholic education but did not really understand all their teachings (there was no RCI in those days). Then, over 20 years, as an adult, I realised many of their doctrines are false and not in line with the Inspired Word of God. the RCC is misleading at best and legal bondage, at worst.
After many years of being a "rogue Christian," I felt a push by the Holy Spirit to start attending church. I was raised evangelical and do not care for modern forms of church. I gravitate towards the more liturgical. I pondered Eastern Orthodoxy and even attended several services; I even considered Roman Catholicism and Episcopal, briefly. After watching many, many videos and debates, deep prayer, and looking at local churches, I decided on Confessional Lutheranism. Gavin's videos have been instrumental in that decision. I started attending last week and am taking catechises classes now and hope to be baptized before Christmas.
I encourage those who are seeking to pray deeply and do some homework. I am far from being an expert, but believe I have made the right decision with guidance from God.
I see that your post is from a year ago, and I am curious as to what path you chose to worship our Lord?
@@paulboerin173praise God. I am a 1689 London Baptist Confessional, Reformed Baptist tradition. I am so thankful to hear that you looked at the option, prayed and sought God and arrived at the true Gospel. We don’t agree on everything, but we agree on the most important item, the Gospel of the Lord of Glory
I am reading your book "Theological Retrieval for Evangelicals" .... it's very interesting and thought provoking. Yes, helpful :)
Newer Christian here, it’s been about a year and a half and I think the only thing that really annoys me that other Christians do is when they spew hate, hate, hate and spread divisive messages outside of the Church intentionally so.
One of my closest brothers theologically is a Catholic (I’m Presbyterian) and we agree fundamentally on quite a few things but I respect him and love him. But when we disagree we’ll disagree respectfully so and try to back our ideas with scripture and philosophical anecdotes.
Like you said, people are so focused on being right they forget to understand.
You found your niche. Please continue to speak the truth to your own detriment, and keep your eyes heaven bound. Numbers don't always reflect impact..
Well said. Hard to do on social media, but so important.
@@TruthUnites honoring God is paramount to our ever changing feelings. Finding true north in Jesus no matter how far off course we find ourselves. Unity seems far away, and the work is like untying stubbornly tight knots and discerning the running line from the tag line. You loosen knots well, and it will get easier, I pray, for you in Jesus. Good thing with your work here is that we can watch over again what we don't get the first time. Folks years from now will see your effort during crisis- but most importantly *God*
That Spurgeon quote (21:15) is so good! Amen!
I know, right?
Gavin, Thank you for such a thoughtful, reflective post. I would love to have you tackle the issue of sexual ethics in the Church/LGBTQ issues; specifically as it relates to unity within affirming and non-affirming churches.
Thanks for the suggestion, will consider!
A truly educated person is a well-read person.
Pastor Gavin, thank you so much for this video. The section on sectarianism convicted me greatly. I appreciate how much the Spirit is working in you to put forth both love and truth. God bless.
Read your book on this a few months ago. Definitely a great read! I would recommend it to anyone. Thanks for a great video! Also, I sooo appreciate how you've segmented each video with the time stamps and topic. I always watch all the way through but it helps when I want to reference back to something!
Thanks Anna! So glad you found the book useful, and are enjoying the videos! :)
Although I'm not a Calvinist... I'm just looking at the channels I'm subscribed to, and the majority people are Calvinist which is kind've funny to me. Most of those like you said, are not outwardly selling Calvinism, I know they are only because they plainly stated so, in my opinion they are just humble respectful men of God. Will second your point about social and political issues are diving family, friends and even the Church. Great video, would love to see you do a video with Anthony Rogers! Even better, tag team heavyweight debate, ORTLUND/ROGERS VS ALBRECHT/SHAMOUN. ;-)
I am a Cal-minian. I recognize that way greater minds than mine have grappled with such things. I believe that the Lord will be merciful to me if I live as though I chose to submit vs having been elected. The LORD is not bound by time, so He knows who are His. How He would have explained that to shepherds, fishermen, and tax collectors is not for me to second guess. Thanks for your ministry!
Look forward to this series! 🍿
Thanks Daniel! Appreciate it!
Can’t even express how much I love this video, how timely it was for me personally, and how much I enjoyed the capricious/capri sun reference! Thanks Dr. Ortlund!
Glad you enjoyed it!
What a great concept...I'm working on a system of church triage also. Here are the top tier elements
1. We must still provide donuts at sunday school even when there is a fellowship meal after church.
2. If the McCollums keep sitting in my family's pew, I'm switching churches
3. Veggietales are still canon even if Phil goes off into left field.
Great teaching Dr. Ortlund. Orthopraxy is just as important as Orthodoxy. Jesus said, "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another" (John 13:35).
Amen.
Thanks for this video. I disagree with you about your ranking of sin and beliefs about marriage and metaphors for Christ and the church argument, but I will say, I love your work and your channel. You truly are a man of God and a breath of fresh air! You and one other person are like the only conservative Christians I will listen to on youtube. I value your contribution and have learned a lot from you in helping me to remain Protestant.
thanks for the kind words!
I've been in the process of discerning what tradition to belong to, and just wanted to say that I appreciate your intellectual curiosity/honesty and desire for unity on the Protestant side.
Thanks! May the Lord guide you and direct you!
Thank you, Gavin. This is the pastoral voice needed to call the church to faithfulness and love.
This one is my favorite so far! I'm a recently converted Christian in an interfaith marriage with someone exploring the Catholic church and sometimes fear and love can get mixed up in my motivations and "zeal" in certain conversations. Thanks for making this!
I have a thing with the word "interfaith." Maybe I'm saying this because I'm protestant, but Catholics and protestants are of the same faith, trinitarian Christianity. Muslims and Protestants or Catholics and Mormons are different faiths.
I think they’re saying that the other person isn’t a Christian yet but is exploring the Catholic Church. As in converting to Catholicism from a non-Christian faith.
Shayla for most of my marriage I was Catholic and my husband was protestant. We had many fights! I raised sons Catholic and even got remarried in Catholic church by a priest to bless it after we were married for 10 years. At 57 I walked away from the Catholic faith. My husband knew I was seeking Jesus, reading the Bible, etc. Pray for your husband, ask questions and have a Bible study together. You may be surprised. Mostly have patience and Love.
@@runcandy3I agree mostly. I considered myself more Christian than Catholic.
Also look up Mike Winger s take on Catholicism, it's very good!
Thank God for pastor Gavin ministry, unity which was a prayer of Jesus while on earth, that we be one as He and the Father are One, 🙏 pastor Gavin for bringing our attention to love, love builds and not tear people apart just because they don't agree with us, let's speak the Word of God in a Loving way🙏🙏🙏
This is a message I needed to hear, and should have listened to (if it had been made) a long time ago. Dr. Gavin Ortlund is a spiritual surgeon, and I need to read the book.
A very important topic. You have presented your case in a gentle and loving manner, and I agree with you on this. I hope you continue to discuss topics such as this...it's not a sexy topic, but so important.
Your so right "die on the right hills". Some People tend to be so tight, rigid, or judgemental on the wrong hills. I love to read and have read so many different kinds of topics and authors that I don't necessarily agree with.
Such great content. I so agree with the immense importance for theological triage. You do a great job in explaining that. I just downloaded your book as well. Thank you.
You are doing great work for the Church. Please keep it up! Thanks. God bless you!
Thanks Peter!
Loving this book. Was just removed as a leader from my church because I wouldn’t endorse cessationism. I never made my view an issue but the church decided it was an essential doctrine to agree on in order to be a leader. So sad and heartbroken. For me it was a “3”. For the church it was a “2”. So hard to leave a church….😔
I’m so sorry to hear that! May the Lord guide you and protect you.
The triage model is unbiblical and quenches the Spirit which we are warned not to do.
The Holy Spirit guides us into all truth, not doctrines of men put above the word of God.
Our church follows this model and I have been persuaded by the Holy Spirit that it is spiritually stagnating our members.
Paul said he wasn't guilty of any man's blood because he hadn't failed to teach the whole counsel of God.
Jesus said man will not live by bread alone but by every word of God.
All scripture is profitable for teaching, exhortation and doctrine.
Churches who use this model put themselves at risk of arrested development because they are more likely to remain stuck in the elementary principles rather than maturing in Christ.
I pray all who reads this will seek the Lord Jesus in prayer, humbly putting aside personal preferences.
These types of devices are worldly in a vain attempt to create worldly peace.
@@heathers4961 what you’re saying does not make sense? You probably haven’t read the book so you don’t know what you’re talking about.
@@janericchannel4513 In what ways doesn't it make sense?
Please be specific.
@@heathers4961 Saying "The triage model is unbiblical and quenches the Spirit" doesn't make sense to me. How?
"The Holy Spirit guides us into all truth." What if two people disagree? Issues like this exist. Which is led by the Holy Spirit?
How does people showing each other grace through these disagreements cause spiritual stagnation? If anything, it limits spiritual stagnation because people are challenged in positions that they might have accepted uncritically. Believing that certain issues aren't as important don't mean you never talk about or study them.
Time-stamps
5:12 - varying severity of sin
5:44 - Westminster Confession of Faith
6:46 - Galatians 1 and Romans 14
7:37, 8:05 - is theological triage a modern, liberal concept?
9:04, 9:40 - John Calvin
9:27 - how to pronounce “capricious”, the Capri Sun connection.
12:20 - consequences of ignoring triage
13:28 - According to Gavin, “… having civil disagreement is counter-cultural.”
14:32 - Gavin talks about Calvinism
This seems like it is going to be an interesting series. Thanks for working so hard to make these videos.
Thank you Gavin for this helpful video. Though I seem to disagree with you on certain political issues, you have been a HUGE help in my struggle with different traditions and wondering about my own salvation. I’ve taken some of these issues to heart and am going to strive to be more loving even in the face of severe disagreement.
Thank you! Dr Ortlund, it would be wonderful if you would make a video that criticizes John Henry Newman's theory of the development of Christian doctrine. Many Roman Catholics, when they fail on biblical and historical grounds, turn to the idea of doctrinal development as a last resort.
Hello Pastor Ortlund! I am an intern with the campus ministry Cru, and I had the opportunity to give a seminar on “levels of belief” at our Fall Retreat last weekend. Your book and articles on theological triage were very helpful to me as prepared for it. Beforehand I was familiar with the Convictions, Persuasions, and Opinions model, but I actually prefer your four-rank model better. Thank you for all that you do!
Thank you. It was Malcolm Muggeridge who was so critical of false ecumenism- it’s easy to agree when you believe so little - they believe so little that there is little to disagree about. And thank you for mentioning Richard Baxter - a beautiful writer.
Thanks for the video! I thought your book on this was great!
Thanks Howard!
Gavin, thanks for being such a great model as a peacemaker. You've helped me a lot on Protestant v. Catholic issues. But your charitable and gracious spirit has helped me the most. When you mentioned Obama in the other video, initially, I was turned off by it. But I quickly realized that was my own immaturity. Thanks for helping me grow!! Keep of the great work! You are having a huge impact!!
Thanks for sharing that Daniel! If it helps, I love many Republican Presidents, too! :)
You're a Calvinist? Oh no. Lol jk I love this video. As an individual who didn't grow up in the church, I never understood the division amongst brethren because of doctrine. The schism and splinters within the body of Christ has caused me so much grief recently.
I thank you for this video & all of your ministry brother. I will definitely be supporting your ministry and buying the book. I appreciate your zeal for God and the peace between lines.
It would be awesome to have a conversation about this topic 🙏🏾 I believe it would be very edifying.
May God bless you abundantly brother.
Thanks for the kind words!
Great, thanks for this Gavin, and I look forward to more ! your book was very helpful btw 😊
2000 years later and we Christians are still handing out love as if there isn’t enough to go around. We/I love being the judge, jury, and executioner instead of even thinking about taking on a paper cut, let alone being crucified.
AMEN!
I had to go buy the book, hoping to gain an ounce of your grace
My pastor says there are issues we divide for like baptism, debate for like end times, and discuss for like which translation to use.
Thank you!
I really appreciate this approach, and in many ways it mirrors my own. I cannot fathom that I am right about everything, even fairly major things. That's why I need to be humble and trust both in the Holy Spirit to reveal and in others to teach me. I believe a lot of people can differ in opinion about many fairly major doctrine and hold those differing opinions in good faith and conviction. I think that is the key. There are some positions that I cannot in good faith believe are true, yet I know and honour others that can. Whoever may be right is less important than our faithful submission to the Lord and what he has revealed to us.
Gavin your way of talking speaks so deeply to me. I've often heard people 'majoring in the majors' but disagreeing what the majors are. For example I spoke to someone a few weeks back said 'oh they aren't a Christian as you and I would be' and I was like but if our Christology [i.e Jesus was God/Son of God and rose from the dead] is along the right lines [doctrine does matter though eh, there's a bigger story and meaning outworking. Its about the outworking of the Christian life] I studied History and English lit so I think beauty meaning are so under utilized, and I work in change process so the two parts of me are at odds I guess but if we can walk in unity the world will be amazed.
Outlining what the majors [or should be] would be great
Thanks Isaac! In the next video I will outline some criteria for identifying major doctrines.
I think the balance between doctrinal minimalism and doctrinal sectarianism is crucial so we avoid shallow Christianity (with a bland ‘ecumenism’) on the one hand and idolizing our confessions on the other. Both these extremes can be dangerous.
I am somewhat new of a listener, but as someone trained in triage from the perspective of a first responder, I think an important factor that also plays a role here is that it also matters how close the person is who has a theological disagreement. For example, 1. Spouse 2. Church member 3. Friend outside of church and 4. Stranger outside of church. I am more concerned about a smaller theological difference between my wife and I than I would be about a major theological difference with a complete stranger, say in the TH-cam Comments for example 😂
But great insight, I really pray that this is an area where more believers will study and grow!
Wonderful video. Amen.
Love your work. Thanks so much
Glad you enjoy it, thanks so much!
YES!!! THANKYOU!
There are some things that have some wiggle room. I'm a confessional conservative Lutheran, but I have been for (knowledge sake) reading the westminister confession, which is calvanist and reformed. While there are differences especially in nuances, all and all there is quite a bit agreement as well. I have no problem calling reformed brothers and sisters. I indeed disagree with some of their understanding, but ironically most are just minor nuances in the WAY it is explained. Like can a true christain lose their salvation (Lutheran view) vs those who do lose, weren't true christains to begin with (reformed view). But both warn against sin and apostasy and teach repentance and good works in the Christian life. Both teach if you fall in unrepentant sin and apostasy, unless you repent you will lose your salvation. And one can find biblical support for both concepts.
glad you enjoyed the video!
Praise the Lord my dear Brother. This is such a great way to tackle issues which have the Body of Christ falling apart. In the Ministry I have come across so many who debate Salvation or the means by which we receive the Gift. How Acts 2:38 includes the Baptism of the Holy Ghost and the Evidence thereof while others believe Romans 10:9/Ephesians 2:8. I'd love to get your thoughts on this. Thank you again for all the work you are doing for the Kingdom.
Hey Gavin!!! I’m wondering if you’d ever do a video on the “new perspective on Paul”. This new movement is very troubling to me and i would love your informed insight.
Thanks for the suggestion, I did touch on this briefly in my video on justification (let me know if you cannot find it), but I will consider doing it again at greater length.
Would really appreciate it if you'd get off the fence and finally tell us your preference of carpet colour in a church. Then we can know for certain whether or not you're a Democrat. You can't hide from the big issues forever Ortlund.
I love British spellings like "colour," and this is a hill I will die on.
And chairs vs. pews while you're at it!
We need to see the unifying nature of aesthetics. Carpets: shag versus knotted, and their variegated hues, are things for which Christ died.
What Christian would not love George Herbert??
Thank you for the video, I read your book on the topic last year and found it very insightful. Since you asked for recommendations, I will say one area I wished would have been covered more extensively is how to navigate the thorny theological issues that arise from the turbulent cultural and political environment we find ourselves in. I understand not wanting to touch these topics with a ten foot pole, and I don't bring them up to be inflammatory but because they are things that have honestly disturbed my soul. Some examples would be:
1) If I am convinced that Critical Race Theory, taken to its logical conclusion, undermines the very heart of the gospel, and a fellow Christian with whom I previously enjoyed a large degree of theological unity comes to believe that CRT concernes are largely a myth constructed from the white privilege of people like me to avoid taking responsibility for systemic racism, how should I proceed?
2) If I truly believe that while Christians are under no obligation to support, advocate or vote for any political party, to do so for one that consistently supports zero restrictions on abortion and giving puberty blockers to otherwise healthy children (to name only two issues), should at the very least be a cause for church discipline; while many well educated Christians I've admired in various ways in the past seem to think it's not a big deal, or that I'm being divisive for mentioning it, how do I navigate that situation?
3) How should I deal with deconstructing Christians or someone like an Andrew or Spencer Klavan who seem to have been genuinely effected by Christ but are either sliding or have outright abandoned the biblical position on things like sexual ethics, which I still believe to be very important from a biblical perspective?
4) A slightly different but related issue: How does one determine one's biblical responsibilities in an increasingly godless society? What lines must not be crossed in the workplace for example, even at great risk to one's job?
These are all things that have been heavy on my heart the past several years. Again, I understand if they are far too touchy to tackle in this series, but I do wish there would be more guidance around these issues from a charitable perspective in times like these.
Thanks for these suggestions. One of the challenges is that I have less training/expertise on cultural matters than theological matters, generally speaking. But I agree we cannot avoid them. I will prayerfully consider which ones to address, and how, and when.
Catholic here. It pains me so often to see my Catholic brothers and sisters completely counteract the truth I believe we are blessed to have and share with all by covering it with pride and self-righteousness. I’ve been guilty of this too. Thank you for bringing this problem out into the light of Christ where we can all heal!
Thank you John!
Hi Gavin. Could you please model theological triage for us on the topics of cessationism/continuationism, and of infant baptism? Perhaps also Calvinism vs other soteriologies. Thanks so much for your very valuable content!
great topics, thanks for the suggestions!
What helps me in almost every thought of interpretation, is that I visualise graphs and diagrams. I think you'd do well to illustrate what you speak of with visual anchors. This, of course, does not have to be flashy.
Thanks for doing these videos, Gavin. I’m hoping you can address theological triage and the Trinity. This seems like an obvious #1 issue, as the church has always confessed, but I’d like to hear precisely why that is the case and why has the church said that salvation is impossible apart from a true belief in the Trinity. Thanks!
Great idea. I should do a video on why it is a first-rank issue.
Perhaps you're covering this in a later video but I would love to know your perspective on women's ordination. Thank you.
yup, I believe I mentioned that will be the third video.
Hey Gavin, I just have one concern: it seems this unity is more a matter of personality (whether you believe it be sectarianism or minimalism the problem(or at least, the main problem)). For me, I think it is quite obvious that the church, her beliefs, and her people, are becoming quite minimalists, at least in America, where we do not have to die for what we believe in. Christ and His Gospel are the crowning jewel of the Scriptures as a whole, I would think it unwise, especially in a culture that is now disintegrating and attacking every facet of that formerly held belief system inside the walls and outside them, to act as if what is going on is the "sectarians" fault (also this is a multi-faceted problem, but I still believe the sectarian is the least of our issues). I really appreciate your point of view on the issue because I think your bringing up good issues for the church to deal with, but on the issue of what is to be done, because of either personality or our differing observation of social phenomena, I just cannot jump on board for now (Christ-like militancy against something that is urgent and pressing, even if non-essential, because the Gospel rests on all Scripture as if a crowning jewel, I think is called for in some circumstances - ex. Christ vis-à-vis the Pharisees)).
Thanks for your comment George. I do not agree that seeking unity is a matter of personality; I think it is a biblical mandate and a matter of theological discernment and love. But I do agree that it is appropriate to be concerned about urgent and pressing issues in the church.
@@TruthUnites I agree with all the above charity, love, and unity are of the utmost importance, but, I suppose, what I was trying to get at is at what time does it prove to be Christ-like to become sectarian to a degree even in the non-essentials, if ever (I hope you will tackle this in a later video)? I would argue when members that claim to be of the Kingdom, especially in positions of authority, mislead the people and close the Kingdom to them because of incorrect teaching are Pharisaic, no? Given the current cultural climate - this is where personality comes in and what one believes is the most urgent of questions to tackle for our times (so not unity is a matter of personality but given the spirit of the times what must be fought over tooth and nail) - how do we as a Church react? Because, in my opinion, it would be dishonest even concerning the non-essentials for the Church to have a laissez faire attitude. (Truly I may be misunderstanding the nuances of your argument, but it sounds to me that you are saying the non-essentials though important are not worth schism. And, to me, in times of great upheaval (truly exceptional upheaval because this is the first time in history an entire society, not one person here or there, is rejecting transcendent belief and mores), one has to understand the non-essentials of Scripture are all part of a greater whole, each informing the other, which prepares the reader for the climax - The Gospel) . God Bless.
@@Georgem7307 Thanks George. Yes, there are certainly times when people become Pharisaical and this calls for a different response. This would be in the realm of the first-rank disagreements, generally. I will cover this in the next video more!
Also, Dr. Ortlund, if you haven't already, seeing you triage complementarian vs egalitarian views and the implications would be really helpful.
I do have one on that, in response to rick warren -- hope it helps!
Dr. Ortlund,
Historically, what determines what we might call Fundamental vs. Non-fundamental Doctrines? I agree these are valid categories, but how do we determine the matter? What is the standard?
great question, will consider addressing this in the next video, thanks
Sola Scriptura. Right?
I agree that murder is worse than gossip from the perspective that intentionally taking someone's life is inexcusable, but sometimes gossip kills too, in a different way.
It's just an example. The point is some sins are worse than others.
@@TruthUnites Amen!
Christendom vs invisible church!
I think this is in some way the discussion behind all the political discussions and church's splits related to that 🤔
Well, there are some cultural and political issues that are related to doctrine. For example, are unborn humans persons with the Imago Dei? Is marriage exclusive to men and women?
Could someone share the link to the 2nd video for theological triage? Found this helpful and would like to see more about the ranking system etc?
Did you ever make the second video on how to do theological triage?
You said that would be the next one, but I can’t find it anywhere, thanks!
I think I just started going through case studies on specific topics (baptism, Calvinism, etc.) for the "how to" -- hope that clarifies. Sorry for any miscommunication.
This is a huge burden on my heart as well. It has become more of a burden I think in the midst of our "pandemic & Trumpian" context of the last few years. I believe we've done inestimable damage to our witness to Christ by aligning with un-Christian attitudes and causes but also by "biting and devouring" one another. Even the unbelievers around us have enough of the intact image of God remaining to know that is not Christ-like. We absolutely must rise above this base impulse to demonize and destroy anyone who disagrees with us. It truly would be countercultural and a great witness to the surpassing worth of Christ for us to value love and unity above the hubris driven impulse to be right at all costs. Thanks for your ministry and model for all of us in our own ministry efforts.
Hi Gavin. Just wanted to drop a line ask if you would consider sharing your thoughts soon about womens' roles / complimentarianism as a triage issue. I've been eager to hear your thoughts since you mentioned in one of your videos that you intended to do that. But of course, continue to listen to the Spirit in what to prioritize. I'll trust your judgment. Thank you very much for your ministry!
will do! Hopefully this spring. thanks for patience.
Didn't plan to watch this until I saw "confirmation" at my Presbyterian church.
Topics to dive into for this series: church membership, ordination/apostolic succession, laying on of hands, church government. It seem like if I get these wrong it's plausible I could be in a cult. A Christian cult yes, but a cult none the less and not a parish.
Did the Complementarian/Egalitarian video end up happening? I recall you did an interview video on the subject but wasn't sure if that was the same thing mentioned here and can't find another.
yes, see my response to Rick Warren -- hope that helps!
1) Trinitarian theology.
2) The sufficiency of the work of Christ for the repentant who remains in Christ.
3). The requirement to stay in Christ and be obedient to Him. (Rejection of autonomian/antinomianism.)
4) Correct division between Creator and creation. Rejection of New Age, NAR, gnosticism.
5) Authority of scripture and rejection of progressive reinterpretation.
6) The reading of the Word, the taking of the Eucharist, and the observance of baptism.
That's the center of the majors for me.
where is the second video?
I'm also interested in how the reformers "do" triage via sola scriptura. How can we be comfortable with a single mans interpretation or our own to determine what is major or minor.
"But here some one perhaps will ask, Since the canon of Scripture is complete, and sufficient of itself for everything, and more than sufficient, what need is there to join with it the authority of the Church’s interpretation? For this reason - because, owing to the depth of Holy Scripture, all do not accept it in one and the same sense, but one understands its words in one way, another in another; so that it seems to be capable of as many interpretations as there are interpreters. For Novatian expounds it one way, Sabellius another, Donatus another, Arius, Eunomius, Macedonius, another, Photinus, Apollinaris, Priscillian, another, Iovinian, Pelagius, Celestius, another, lastly, Nestorius another. Therefore, it is very necessary, on account of so great intricacies of such various error, that the rule for the right understanding of the prophets and apostles should be framed in accordance with the standard of Ecclesiastical and Catholic interpretation". -St. Vincent of Lerins
Has always made sense to me.
What level would you say that the theology of communion is at? The Real Presence vs Memorialism and such
10 months late but here is how I would view it: the differences, while important, matter a whole lot less if everyone takes it every week. Obviously memorialism can lead to infrequent giving of the sacrament, which is my main substantive disagreement. The early church fathers exhort believers in their letters that they should partake whenever they meet
On the topic of unity, may I ask your opinion on "The Church Idea", by William Reed Huntington?
This may not be an issue that merits a video, but I am wrestling with the triage status of the issue of biblical inerrancy/infallibility.
As someone who now holds a view of Scripture basically identical to CS Lewis, I feel a lot of tension in my knowledge that many evangelicals would hold my views to be deeply dangerous to the church. In many ways I am still an inerrantist at heart; I just have come to be convinced intellectually that I cannot interpret the Bible that way.
Should I be cast out of evangelicalism? I certainly do not want to be. And my doctrinal stances have changed very little since giving up inerrancy--like Lewis, I have no desire in the world to slide into liberalism or progressive Christianity, which I find to be a grave danger.
Thanks for sharing that. Great idea for future discussion.
I don't think we should divide over any doctrinal issues. "Why does thou judge thy brother?" "Is Christ divided?" If someone wants to divide from me, that's their problem. (I'm low church though - very low.)
I don't even think we should divide from unbelievers. We are called not to be separated from the world, but to be leaven within the world. "Suffer both to grow together.. ."
Was there ever a followup video?
yes, have done ones on baptism, calvinism, and end times. two more in the queue
@10:41 Ironic that John Calvin was brought up with relatively tolerant quotes, when in essence he was not tolerant at all.
John Calvin was a prominent figure in the Protestant Reformation, known for his strict theological views and his influence on the city of Geneva. While he did not personally carry out executions, he was a key figure in the religious and political climate of Geneva, which led to the persecution and punishment of those who deviated from the established doctrine.
One of the most notable cases is that of Michael Servetus, a Spanish theologian who was burned at the stake in 1553 for heresy. Although Calvin did not have the sole authority to order Servetus' execution, he played a significant role in his arrest and trial. Calvin believed that Servetus' views were dangerous and heretical, and he used his influence to ensure that Servetus faced the harshest punishment.
Other individuals who were exiled or faced persecution during Calvin's time in Geneva include:
* Jacques Gruet: A French Protestant who was beheaded in 1547 for criticizing Calvin's teachings.
* Jerome Bolsec: A French physician and theologian who was exiled from Geneva in 1551 for his views on predestination.
* Sebastian Castellio: A French humanist and theologian who was also exiled from Geneva in 1553 for his criticism of Calvin's stance on religious tolerance.
It is important to note that the religious climate of 16th-century Europe was characterized by intolerance and persecution of those who held dissenting views. Calvin's actions, while controversial, were not entirely out of line with the prevailing attitudes of the time.
However, his legacy remains complex and debated, with some viewing him as a rigid and intolerant figure, while others see him as a reformer who sought to uphold the purity of the Christian faith.
Personally, I see him as rigid, intolerant to any theology he didn't hold, even if it was revealed in Scripture. He upheld his version of purity, all others be damned.
Could you do a triage video on the Trinity?
I believe in the triune nature of God, but I'm not as confident in it as everyone else seems to be. Also, I don't think most christians understand it as well as they think they do. If I asked the various believers in my life to explain the trinity, I think about a third of them would come up with some sort of partialistic or modalistic explanation. Are these people heretics for not understanding?
A very interesting video indeed. I'm slowly going through your book on this subject too. I'd like some clarity on someone being wrong and yet not evil. Granted, being wrong doesn't necessarily mean someone is evil but it is often the case that ones suppression of the truth of God in unrighteousness leads to a darkened understanding (Rom 1). IOW, their reasoning stems from their morality. How you reconcile these two truths?
Not all errors are Romans 1 kinds of errors. Does that help?
@@TruthUnites yes. How do you determine that which is a Romans 1 issue? There are numerous sins listed in Romans 1 that stems from this suppression of God.
@@Somerandomguy1689 great question, that is what I will be tackling in the next video! :)
Is Dr. Ortland a Calvinist?! If there is no free will there is no hill to die on. So many videos, so little time...I find instead of choosing videos to watch I'm forced to reject videos in order to bring down the number. Calvinism is a minor good reason to reject but anti papacy is a major good reason to listen which puts Dr. O on the watch later (maybe) list.
I dunno Gavin... the topic seems a little flashy to me, basically click bait really.
As much as I disagree with the notion that all sins are equal - I suspect the impulse to hold that view stems from the understanding that all sin, no matter how small, leads to separation from God. God cannot look upon sin so in that sense there is no greater or smaller sins because God cannot abide by any of them. But what the believer doesn't seem to realize is that the original statement conflates the manifest presence of God with the consequences of sin which is an important separation to uphold.
Triage does not work for many things specifically what God has called evil and what he has called good. Sponsoring or supporting something evil is not in the realm of triage. Example pastor Alistair Begg counseling a grandmother to attend her Tran grand child’s “wedding” ceremony.
COLOR OF CARPET
Sometimes the thing that make me reallyy reallyyy jealous with the Catholics is this:
If you convert to Catholicism. That's it. Now you are part of a one church. Everyone in that church is your brothers and sisters. They will be your family, and you can unite together. Even if a Catholic may debate another Catholic they would still able to go to church together and take communion together on Sunday. But if you convert to Protestantism, you would find many many war, debate, and division between denominations. See the point? Let's say... a Catholic meet another Catholic friend after he finished debating a Protestant, that friend would cheer him. But if a Protestant meet another Protestant after he finished debating a Catholic in that circumstance, *they can have another messy debate between them.* This is the reason why I don't really like those so-called discernment ministries. Usually they throw too many babies out of the bathwater. Even some of them are the kind of people that hold firm to a Theological position and then simply condemning other Christians for believing another thing.
*"You are a heretic if you don't believe in predestination."*
*"You are a false teacher if you make fellowship with Egalitarian churches."*
*"You are unrepentant if you deny young earth creationism."*
*"You are wolf in sheep clothing if you don't teach rapture."*
*"You are a crazy pagan mysticist if you support Charismatic gifts and speaking in tongues."*
*"You are a blasphemous quencher of the Spirit if you believe in cessationism."*
*"You are unbeliever denying God's word if you embrace religious freedom."*
They said all of it in the name of "defending the truth boldly and rebuking false teachings".
A Catholic will always be brothers and sisters with other Catholics. But could a Protestant consider (at least all conservative Protestants) as their brother and sisters in Christ??? Not necessarily 😭. They love to fight without right manner and condemn other Christians as they are unbelievers 😞. Therefore I really grateful for people like you. Who are charitable and able to embrace other Christians as your brothers and sisters in Christ as long as they are still orthodox in certain level (like for the primary issues)
And finally this is for my Protestants brothers and sisters who read this:
Guys, even if you don't want to consider Catholics as your family in Christ, AT LEAST DON'T START WAR ALL THE TIME AND ANATHEMAZING (YES, some of you did it) OTHER PROTESTANTS JUST BECAUSE OF MINOR THEOLOGICAL DISAGREEMENT. I just tired with all of it 😞😞😭😭😭
Not only a Calvinist and an Obamist, but a MARXIST?? Unsubscribed Gavin, anathema!! 😂
Just wait till you see what I have to say about global warming! You will be identifying me with something bad in the book of Revelation for sure!
Trying to think what Hills I am willing to die on:
1) There is only One True God, and no other.
2) The Doctrine of the Trinity.
3) The Divinity AND Humanity of Jesus (Fully God, Fully Man).
4) His Virgin Birth
5) His Sinless Life
6) His Atoning Death on the Cross.
7) His Burial
8) His Physical/Bodily Resurrection on the Third Day.
9) His Appearances to, and Commissioning of, the Apostles as His witnesses.
10) His Ascension to Heaven where He sits at the Right Hand of God Almighty.
11) His Future Return
12) The Coming Judgment.
13) The Everlasting Punishment that awaits Unbelievers (i.e. a Literal Hell).
14) That Salvation is Found in no other name, than Christ Jesus.
15) That Salvation is by Grace through Faith, and not by Works.
16) Credobaptism (i.e. Adult Believers' Baptism), by immersion (whenever possible) as the only valid form of Baptism*.
17) That Baptism Saves, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (i.e. Baptismal Regeneration is the normative means through which God regenerates a repentant believer).
18) The Real Presence of Christ in the Bread and Wine (though I do not try and ascertain how this Mystery is done, I simply trust God).
19) That the Bread used in Communion is to be Unleavened.
20) That the gifts of the Holy Spirit continue to our day, and that we are to neither forbid the speaking in tongues, nor despise prophecy. Though all things are to be done in an orderly fashion. Speaking in tongues is not the only sign that someone has received the Holy Spirit, but rather we should look for the fruit of the Spirit in a person's life as the only true sign of regeneration.
21) That Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, that He tasted death for every man, giving His life as a ransom for all, and that He would have all men to saved.
22) That Determinism (and Compatibilism) are completely foreign to the teachings of Scripture, and make God the Author of Sin. No Christian taught any such doctrine anywhere before (approximately) the year 400, and it should be fully and wholly rejected.
23) The idea of the Papacy is wholly the invention of men.
24) The veneration of images and icons is completely foreign to the Scriptures, and to Christianity, and despite the protests of those who bow before such things, they are a violation of the 10 Commandments, and are to be wholly rejected.
25) That anyone who says that they know Christ (i.e. that they are a Christian) but do not keep His Commandments, is a liar and the truth is not in them. see 1st John 2:3-4
26) Without Holiness no one shall see the Lord. For whilst we are saved by Grace through Faith, and not by our works, a true Christian who is regenerated by the Spirit will bear fruit in keeping with their repentance and the new life that they have in Christ.
27) Anyone who returns to the things of the world, living in and practicing unrepentant sin, if they are to die in such a state, will have made shipwreck their faith, having forfeited the Salvation that Christ won for them.
28) Elders/Bishops/Pastors MUST meet the requirements set out in Scripture, and this includes being men (i.e. there are no female Pastors, or Teachers of Doctrine in the Church of Christ).
and these two should be covered under general holiness and obedience to Christ, but because they are such key issues in today's world, I'll spell them out here:
29) All Sex outside of the Heterosexual union of Husband and Wife is sin. This includes but is not limited to sleeping around and having casual sex, and all forms of homosexual (gay, lesbian, etc.) sex.
30) Abortion is murder (always, and without exception).
I suppose there are many more, but this is already longer than I imagined it would be at first, so I'll leave it there.
*I am currently studying the introduction of infant baptism into the Church, and wonder if there is not a place for it, in the case of children who are sick, though I am not yet convinced of this.
*EDIT: Just to be clear, I do not automatically dismiss a Brother or Sister as a heretic if the disagree with me on some of the above points. Rather these are points that I believe to be true and worth contending for, even if it means that others will cast me out. I would still do mission alongside someone who was baptized as an infant, for instance ... I would just tell them they need to repent and be baptized whilst I'm at it.* ;) XD
fascinating list! So including credobaptism (16), does this mean you anathematize Augustine and all the medieval church? Or perhaps you have a different definition of what is a "hill to die on" than I do....
@@TruthUnites What I mean by "Hill to Die on" is a position that I am not willing to compromise on, though I use it in a defensive (not offensive) sense. Or said differently, I will stand my ground on these Doctrines even if it means every other church anathematizes me. Though I do not use it to mean that I would anathematize someone else.
And whilst some of these points are absolute points of division (such as the Nature of Christ, and of God, etc.), others are certainly less so (though there is a point at which I would divide over them). I could, for instance, attend a Baptist Church that allowed Freedom of Conscience on say Baptismal Regeneration, I would not, however, attend a Baptist Church that expressly taught against and condemned Baptismal Regeneration.
@@beowulf.reborn Thanks for clarifying that! I would say that we should never compromise our views, no matter whether they are of greater or lesser importance. When I speak of "hills to die on," or first-rank issues, I am thinking of issues the demarcate orthodoxy as distinct from heresy. Just to clarify my own usage.
If Machen could come back today he would immediately recognize, and comment, on how disregarding some of the “lesser” messages in the Bible have now compromised the Gospel itself. The Gospel message is to accept Christ as Lord and repent of your sins, that is to acknowledge, in humility, all those sins recognizable in your life. We now live in an environment where most churches have embraced a “Seeker Friendly” mentality where many sinful lifestyles will not be challenged or confronted because of the potential pushback. It has led to a secularization of churches and will continue to compromise God’s message.
Even though this is just your first video of a series, I am concerned over its direction. Maybe my concern is unwarranted. We will see as this series progresses. One thing I would emphasize to you is that you need to rely more on scripture and not like the way you did when you pulled out Philippians 3:15. Like many verses, it can be taken out of context if not read with the surrounding verses. Keep in mind, Philippians 3:17-19 states “Brothers, join in imitating me, and keep your eyes on those who walk according to the example you have in us. For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, WITH MINDS SET ON EARTHLY THINGS.” The reason for the emphasis…..it is impossible to deny that Americans, in all our abundance, have our minds on earthly things.
Machen was facing incredible compromise in his own day, but he recognized that was all the more a reason to do triage. We must distinguish between a Christian brother or sister who is in error vs. outright heresy. If you don't like triage, you have a problem with Jesus, who spoke of the weightier matters of the law, and lesser and greater degrees of punishment for different errors. I mentioned numerous Scriptures that you did not interact with, such as Romans 14.
@@TruthUnites I appreciate that you have a desire to limit the division currently being experienced in the church. I do not like the division either. However, the division we are currently dealing with is a secularization of the church. We are giving acceptance to sinful lifestyles for the sake of attendance. Even at my church they do not want to address certain corrupt lifestyles from the pulpit and choose to save them for “behind closed door” discussions. But those discussions only occur is the one living that lifestyle approaches leadership. Our leaders never take the initiative and ignore the influence that sinner has on the people around them at church, propagating an acceptance of those lifestyles.
I also find it interesting that, instead of addressing my critique of your use of Philippians, you change direction and ask me to address Romans 14. I will be glad to do so, but ignoring my point only infers concession.
@@TruthUnites As for Romans 14, the entire chapter is referencing eating habits. There is also a slight nod to the holiness of certain days of the week, which opens a very thin door to other rather insignificant issues not intended to divide Christians. One thing that is clear, however, is the reference of doing things unto the Lord. Our focus should be the Lord our God and His desire for our life. However, we are to confront others in the church who are openly sinning and unrepentant. Matthew 18:15-17, Galatians 6:1, 1 Timothy 5:20, James 5:19-20 are all example. You could even go back to Nathan approaching David in reference to Bathsheba. Clearly there are right ways, and wrong ways to approach the sinner, but I think it is clear that we are not supposed to ignore the subject. It is also clear that Paul had no problem publicly speaking out against sinful lifestyles either, which leads me to believe that they should be spoken from the pulpit of churches as well. All scripture should be spoken from the pulpit, both for our edification and conviction. We live in a fallen world, we are supposed to be the light that shines in the darkness.
@@craigfield9037 Thanks for responding. I am just heading out the door at the moment so cannot give your comments a response, sorry about that. I hope you will keep watching and perhaps become more open to triage through the series!
Orthodox here, I wish all protestants were as understanding of historical dialogue. As a former protestant I was always turned away from history, its all catholic and all a dark age. This is my challenge for protestants as the unity of all historically divided churches should be our goal and desire. For us, unity doesnt come from just having some of the right doctrines, but also submission to the historical and visible church found in the new testament. Id like to hear your take on all the verses in the new testament commanding us to believe the same things and be of one mind, and coupled with the boundaries in the new testament of the church where those that leave were never part of them or being in relationship to those bishops the apostles ordained and commanded us to submit to. It does seem through the 7 eccumenical councils the church was victorious and united against heresey that we can all agree on (some dont I understand). Christ and his theanthropic body is a primary issue for us. How do you foresee unity with this hill to die on for all of the Eastern Churches that long for unity under the headship of Christ?
Hey, it's not like you CHOSE to read Obama, after all...
(just kidding)
The triage model is unbiblical and quenches the Spirit which we are warned not to do.
The Holy Spirit guides us into all truth, not doctrines of men put above the word of God.
Our church follows this model and I have been persuaded by the Holy Spirit that it is spiritually stagnating our members.
Paul said he wasn't guilty of any man's blood because he hadn't failed to teach the whole counsel of God.
Jesus said man will not live by bread alone but by every word of God.
All scripture is profitable for teaching, exhortation and doctrine.
Churches who use this model put themselves at risk of arrested development because they are more likely to remain stuck in the elementary principles rather than maturing in Christ.
I pray all who reads this will seek the Lord Jesus in prayer, humbly putting aside personal preferences.
These types of devices are worldly in a vain attempt to create worldly peace.
Triage isn't unbiblical.
The hill I die on is the gospel. Being born again. I don't understand why you are so soft on this issue. You gloss over what the Catholics and orthodox believe. These people aren't saved and I don't understand why you can't see that.
How do you know that Catholic and Orthodox Christians are not saved?
@@TruthUnites because from an institutional level they deny the simple gospel. Jesus paid the price for their sins yet they deny it. They add tons of steps and works to that simple truth. Yes an individual Catholic or Orthodox could be saved but it would be despite their churches evil and anti Christian teachings.
I hope that answer is clear.
@@cammyg7773 Unfortunately, you preach another Gospel as Holy Scripture teaches we must cooperate with God's saving grace and repent and bear fruit and forgive others and love one another and persevere to the end to be saved! The Son of Man shall give to each according to one's works or lack of works as Jesus Christ and Paul and Peter, teach! For even if one has ALL FAITH, but does not LOVE, IT IS USELESS! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink
@@cammyg7773 I am glad to hear you acknowledge they can saved. I agree. I'm not sure how that squares with your original comment that "these people aren't saved," or why, then, you accuse me of being "so soft" in my characterization of these traditions. You would need to articulate something specific. I would encourage you to engage Catholic and Orthodox theology more carefully. Not even the Reformers wrote them off or denied they could be a part of the church.
@@TruthUnites if you cannot see how bad Catholic and Orthodox theology is then that's on you.
It doesn't take a doctor to see that it is leading people to hell.
The facts are. There are no good people. We all need to turn to Jesus and trust in him to save us. Not a particular church or branch of Christianity.
Jesus said it is finished before he died on the cross because he paid our debt. He paid it all. Any person can repent and truly trust in Christ alone to be saved. The problem is when you add all of the extra steps you have created a false religion with a false God. The first commandment is to not put any other gods before the one true God. That's what the majority of Catholics and Orthodox are doing.
They have created a false version of the true God who judges them based on their works not on their submission to him.
John Macarthur, Mike Winger, and Ray Comfort would be good examples of famous biblical Christians.
I would suggest anybody who reads this find a good Bible based church in your local community though and seek God.
The internet is full of questionable (Christian) channels.