Let me know what you think about the new format. The official reason they changed it to be this way, is to have more high level Starcraft to show the fans, so it is really interesting for me to see what you all think!
I don't really like how they did the swiss format, where we have to guess which player will play against which, since we can't see esl's MMR system (that's what I understand at least. For the main event, I don't get why they had to make this complicated. If their objective was to make it more fair, they haven't succeeded.
@@halqthedarktemplar Their MMR Format was basically just the initial Seeds and then you gain or lose mmr depending on who you beat or lose to. If you beat a better player you gain more than if you beat a worse player. So let's say i am seed 3 and i win vs seed 14 i gain + 0.1 and end up at 2.9 seed mmr, if i lose i would've lost maybe 1.5 and ended up with the seed mmr of 4.5 instead in the next round. The numbers are made up and just an example :D
I think the offline event and the regionals should be more independent. Right now, if you want to make it to Sweden you either have to qualify through the regionals or be top 4 out of every single other player who didn't qualify. Your chances at the offline event shouldn't depend that heavily on your performance in the regionals, and playing in the regional doesn't mean you have any obligation to play in the offline event - as with the MaxPax situation. The two tournaments shouldn't be THAT connected. As for the format, it doesn't look great, but it's still a bit easier to follow than last year IMO.
I wonder what are the reasons for these recent changes?This and the Swiss format? IS it in some way shorter/cheaper meaning an economical cause, or is it genuinely because somebody thinks its better?
I understand ESL wants a representative from each region for the respective fans. somehow also interesting, in the past they did this because Korea are too strong now also good Eu players are hit by it. when i think about 2018-2021 tournament you see Na/ Oceania, SEA/ etc and wonder what would be if Spirt/ Elazer/ ShoWTimE/ Harstem/ Lambo would be in this region.
I agree that its unfair that some regions get more points than others. I pointed this out last year, TeebuL represented our region (SEA + ROA) simply because he was able to attend EU LANs (homestory cup) and farm more points than any of the other players in our region. Otherwise Probe would have had an equal amount of points. Also I think it's been a big mistake by ESL the last few years how much doing well in one event just cascades, it gives way fewer chances to players who might be just as strong but have to start at a huge deficit. My regions bracket has over HALF the players already qualified in the main bracket AND the closed qualifiers. It just ends up being a repeat of who gets to play these tournaments every time. I would much rather only the top 2 players get seeded into the next tournaments.
Really enjoyed the video, the whole bracket thing makes more sense now. On that note this kind of bracket seems counterproductive to the goal of getting the higher level content. It lowers the stakes of the qualified players and increases the stakes of non qualifided players to a ridiculous extent. :( Thank you for the video! Hope you feel better soon.
It may be a matter of taste to you, but to anyone with an understanding in performance analytics, it is by far objectively the best format that has the best sorting power, per tournament length. Single/double elimination may be entertaining for some, but it's abjectly horrid when it comes to accounting for the tremendous "luck" factor of Starcraft, which is far greater than that of pro chess, which already relies heavily on the Swiss format. SoO, Scarlett, and Oliveira are three "champions" who've benefitted from this luck factor, and the community vastly agree none of these players had any business being considered the strongest player at their moment of tournament victory. Not even close, in fact.
Thanks for explaining the format, I even had a hard time understanding that swiss format, there wasn't explained on liqiudpedia how they will decide how to go about it and the offline format was even harder to understand. I will have a few points, first, about the swiss format and the regionals: 1. As a viewer I haven't managed to understand who was gonna play who and when, so I didn 't even bother turning in on the streams. 2. Their way of seeding in the playoff bracket I found it .... maybe unfair it's the word, and what I mean by that it's that wayne got a lower seeding while beating really good players meanwhile showtime and elazer had easier opponents, but maybe what I see is the end result and that's why I found it unfair. 3. The fact there wasn't a lower bracket that's bullshit in my opinion, so if you have a bad day or you get matched against an really tough opponents you are screwed and that's it . That was the most disturbing for me personally. 4. Now that I learnt about the map score system [ performance how you described ] it's even worse , I don't find way a good way to do it. About the global standing problem, I cannot tell yet if it's good or bad in the long run , technically, it makes sense for the final championship, but for the 1st tournament, yeah, I agree, they should have renamed like 2 kr + 1 asia LUL . Something else would have been fair, at least others will have a chance in getting the spots. About the offline format : Honestly, I think you pointed everything out, and everything you said it's well said. it's just nice to be a seeded player, and now, the "plebs" like you , Hero, Showtime, Heromarine etc. have to fight each other for only those 4 slots , and after that you are good to go in facing off all the seeded players, hmm, in a serious way all of you have to climb the mountain, in a meme way, this can be described as a proper "KEKW" for the "plebs" . So.... I guess ... have a nice day at hiking the mountain. KEKW
Well mostly because of Stormgate, it will be the last Starcraft 2 World Championship for me if the game happens to be good. And I'd imagine it's the same for most other current SC2 Pros, but the future isn't set in stone yet in that department :)
@@LamboSC2 I see. I was afraid some insider info from ESL:). ITs a weird thing for me, on one hand im a pretty chill sc2 fan, dia 3, play maybe 10-15 games a week, watch a fair bit of sc2. So im not as invested as some, for example you i would imagine, but It makes me sad to imagine sc2 pro scene ending. On other hand im all for giving Stormgate a chance...
Swiss system always counts Buchgolz to seed players, not counting how many maps u lost or won in your matches, you can check CS, hearthstone MTs, so this point is not valid. Agree that the system of regional players getting such a big advantage is not fair
There are other tie-breaking systems than Buchholz for swiss, and ESL has not stated that they are using Buchholz in SC2. It is possible they are using Buchholz of course, and it is likely if they copied the system from CS:GO as they are using the same pseudo-swiss with eliminating players during the group play (in normal swiss system each player plays each round like in round robin). I checked that the final Buchholz score for Clem and Lambo is the same -1 here, but did not check the Buchholz scores for each round.
So from what I've heard the Chinese players are having major visa issues so Coffee might not be able to take the combined standings slot and even Oliveira might not be able to attend
Funding has been pulling out and there's a hope that Stormgate will be the new game that will take SC2's Esport space. We'll have to wait and see on that though. So maybe not the "last" SC2 tournament, but possibly the last one Lambo goes to assuming Stormgate takes off.
Yeah this just wasn't designed well... They seem to way over complicating things. I feel like a massive double elimination bracket with seeding from the regionals would be a lot more fair.
maxpax :( this prob will be the first premier tournament i skip if good protosses dont qualify, man zest and trap retiring really changed so much entertainment value for me.
I think it's highly adventagous for Serral that he has NEVER had to play against Serral in qualifiers/tournament/events. Jokes aside, I see your frustration. Seeding advantage is ridiculous but I do think a good player can overcome the initial deficit. I actually think it's absolutely impossible for midtier players and it's format like this that makes the scene stale: When the barrier of entry is too high, and the top end of the bracket is the same DUE TO SEEDING... not even direct skills. Yes, we the viewers want to see high level starcraft. But we want to see organic high level starcraft, a great player's dominating tear through the bracket or an underdog's blazing triumph over tough opponents, not seeded showmatches. Speaking of underdogs, as a region with a single seed. Non-Korea Asia's spot is basically Oliveira's exclusive right for the foreseable future. Coffee, who absolutely killed it in the regionals, is going to have tough time because he HAS to beat Oliveira every regional; same with Firefly, Has or upcomers like Oriana and Nanami. I think scrapping region-locked qualifiers for alternating-server qualifiers is the healthiest way to promote merit based competition.
Ah, wanted to add that I wish ESL made it clear the impact and points of the cups. I think participation SHOULD be rewarded, but it should be fair and transparent.
I don't like it. I prefer the Swiss format by far. In fact, I would prefer the playoff to be mostly Swiss as well, at least to determine the grand final match. For example, the top two scorers of the Swiss bracket will duke it out in the grand finale. I absolutely abhor the single elimination format for Starcraft, and the double elimination format is just a very clumsy attempt to address the crappiness of the single elimination format. Just do Swiss into grand finale, and that should be the golden standard.
This is done intentionally. Sc2 cannot support that many players so they want to establish a stable cast of around 20 people who always make it in and can sort of stay at the top. This is why the bracket is designed to keep the invited players at the top even if they lose all the games.
I get that impression aswell. Like you don't want another female tennis tournament where you simply don't know who will win the next big tournament. Sure, there are some favorites, but other than that, it's like playing a lottery. Who wanna see a new champion everyday ? I mean, who knows who is Serena Williams ? Then who knows who is Flavia Pennetta, Sloane Stephens, Samantha Stosur, Marion Bartoli, Anastasia Myskina or even Barbora Krejcikova ? Those are all Grand Slam Champions but I bet there are some of you who didn't know who they were... We don't want that for sc2 either. We need some stability and some champions in order to identify ourselves to them and aspire to become like them. If there's a different champion in each tournament, then it'll be like playing poker.
Let me know what you think about the new format.
The official reason they changed it to be this way, is to have more high level Starcraft to show the fans, so it is really interesting for me to see what you all think!
I don't really like how they did the swiss format, where we have to guess which player will play against which, since we can't see esl's MMR system (that's what I understand at least.
For the main event, I don't get why they had to make this complicated. If their objective was to make it more fair, they haven't succeeded.
@@halqthedarktemplar Their MMR Format was basically just the initial Seeds and then you gain or lose mmr depending on who you beat or lose to. If you beat a better player you gain more than if you beat a worse player. So let's say i am seed 3 and i win vs seed 14 i gain + 0.1 and end up at 2.9 seed mmr, if i lose i would've lost maybe 1.5 and ended up with the seed mmr of 4.5 instead in the next round. The numbers are made up and just an example :D
@@LamboSC2 thanks for the explanation! Still kinda hard to keep track of for us spectators imo.
I think the offline event and the regionals should be more independent. Right now, if you want to make it to Sweden you either have to qualify through the regionals or be top 4 out of every single other player who didn't qualify. Your chances at the offline event shouldn't depend that heavily on your performance in the regionals, and playing in the regional doesn't mean you have any obligation to play in the offline event - as with the MaxPax situation. The two tournaments shouldn't be THAT connected.
As for the format, it doesn't look great, but it's still a bit easier to follow than last year IMO.
I wonder what are the reasons for these recent changes?This and the Swiss format? IS it in some way shorter/cheaper meaning an economical cause, or is it genuinely because somebody thinks its better?
Very-well articulated points, Lambo. I agree with your assessment and I'm rooting for you
I understand ESL wants a representative from each region for the respective fans.
somehow also interesting, in the past they did this because Korea are too strong now also good Eu players are hit by it.
when i think about 2018-2021 tournament you see Na/ Oceania, SEA/ etc and wonder what would be if Spirt/ Elazer/ ShoWTimE/ Harstem/ Lambo would be in this region.
Thank goodness for this video. I checked the format and gave up on understanding after a few minutes .
I agree that its unfair that some regions get more points than others. I pointed this out last year, TeebuL represented our region (SEA + ROA) simply because he was able to attend EU LANs (homestory cup) and farm more points than any of the other players in our region. Otherwise Probe would have had an equal amount of points.
Also I think it's been a big mistake by ESL the last few years how much doing well in one event just cascades, it gives way fewer chances to players who might be just as strong but have to start at a huge deficit. My regions bracket has over HALF the players already qualified in the main bracket AND the closed qualifiers. It just ends up being a repeat of who gets to play these tournaments every time. I would much rather only the top 2 players get seeded into the next tournaments.
Pezz 4 Pres
Really enjoyed the video, the whole bracket thing makes more sense now. On that note this kind of bracket seems counterproductive to the goal of getting the higher level content. It lowers the stakes of the qualified players and increases the stakes of non qualifided players to a ridiculous extent. :(
Thank you for the video! Hope you feel better soon.
Swiss format is a matter of taste, but the offline format is just unfair
It may be a matter of taste to you, but to anyone with an understanding in performance analytics, it is by far objectively the best format that has the best sorting power, per tournament length. Single/double elimination may be entertaining for some, but it's abjectly horrid when it comes to accounting for the tremendous "luck" factor of Starcraft, which is far greater than that of pro chess, which already relies heavily on the Swiss format. SoO, Scarlett, and Oliveira are three "champions" who've benefitted from this luck factor, and the community vastly agree none of these players had any business being considered the strongest player at their moment of tournament victory. Not even close, in fact.
sad to see maxpax has once again opted out
Thanks for explaining the format, I even had a hard time understanding that swiss format, there wasn't explained on liqiudpedia how they will decide how to go about it and the offline format was even harder to understand.
I will have a few points, first, about the swiss format and the regionals:
1. As a viewer I haven't managed to understand who was gonna play who and when, so I didn 't even bother turning in on the streams.
2. Their way of seeding in the playoff bracket I found it .... maybe unfair it's the word, and what I mean by that it's that wayne got a lower seeding while beating really good players meanwhile showtime and elazer had easier opponents, but maybe what I see is the end result and that's why I found it unfair.
3. The fact there wasn't a lower bracket that's bullshit in my opinion, so if you have a bad day or you get matched against an really tough opponents you are screwed and that's it . That was the most disturbing for me personally.
4. Now that I learnt about the map score system [ performance how you described ] it's even worse , I don't find way a good way to do it.
About the global standing problem, I cannot tell yet if it's good or bad in the long run , technically, it makes sense for the final championship, but for the 1st tournament, yeah, I agree, they should have renamed like 2 kr + 1 asia LUL . Something else would have been fair, at least others will have a chance in getting the spots.
About the offline format : Honestly, I think you pointed everything out, and everything you said it's well said. it's just nice to be a seeded player, and now, the "plebs" like you , Hero, Showtime, Heromarine etc. have to fight each other for only those 4 slots , and after that you are good to go in facing off all the seeded players, hmm, in a serious way all of you have to climb the mountain, in a meme way, this can be described as a proper "KEKW" for the "plebs" .
So.... I guess ... have a nice day at hiking the mountain. KEKW
The video title should be way more clickbaity because its actually important and urgent
Hm it struck me when you repeated 2 times"Last World Stacraft championship" , is it like known that its the last year?
Well mostly because of Stormgate, it will be the last Starcraft 2 World Championship for me if the game happens to be good. And I'd imagine it's the same for most other current SC2 Pros, but the future isn't set in stone yet in that department :)
@@LamboSC2 I see. I was afraid some insider info from ESL:). ITs a weird thing for me, on one hand im a pretty chill sc2 fan, dia 3, play maybe 10-15 games a week, watch a fair bit of sc2. So im not as invested as some, for example you i would imagine, but It makes me sad to imagine sc2 pro scene ending. On other hand im all for giving Stormgate a chance...
Swiss system always counts Buchgolz to seed players, not counting how many maps u lost or won in your matches, you can check CS, hearthstone MTs, so this point is not valid. Agree that the system of regional players getting such a big advantage is not fair
There are other tie-breaking systems than Buchholz for swiss, and ESL has not stated that they are using Buchholz in SC2. It is possible they are using Buchholz of course, and it is likely if they copied the system from CS:GO as they are using the same pseudo-swiss with eliminating players during the group play (in normal swiss system each player plays each round like in round robin). I checked that the final Buchholz score for Clem and Lambo is the same -1 here, but did not check the Buchholz scores for each round.
Why the hell is maxpatch even included in the list if, in the end, he won't show up in offline tournaments? 😒
So from what I've heard the Chinese players are having major visa issues so Coffee might not be able to take the combined standings slot and even Oliveira might not be able to attend
If they can't attend it will be Special and Kelazhur getting the slots. Europes 5th-8th will be last on the list to get the combined slots.
@@LamboSC2 Yeah I know, it's a bit ridiculous tbh but what can you do
Last StarCraft 2 tournament? What happened?
Funding has been pulling out and there's a hope that Stormgate will be the new game that will take SC2's Esport space. We'll have to wait and see on that though. So maybe not the "last" SC2 tournament, but possibly the last one Lambo goes to assuming Stormgate takes off.
@@ehk5948 Thanks, that's a big assumption
Yeah this just wasn't designed well... They seem to way over complicating things. I feel like a massive double elimination bracket with seeding from the regionals would be a lot more fair.
Oh god, this is horrible!! Have you guys contacted the ESL? Last year it felt like for major things like that they were fast to react
maxpax :( this prob will be the first premier tournament i skip if good protosses dont qualify, man zest and trap retiring really changed so much entertainment value for me.
Wow. i cant wait to not watch the 2/3 of this tournament that's TvT
I think it's highly adventagous for Serral that he has NEVER had to play against Serral in qualifiers/tournament/events.
Jokes aside, I see your frustration. Seeding advantage is ridiculous but I do think a good player can overcome the initial deficit. I actually think it's absolutely impossible for midtier players and it's format like this that makes the scene stale: When the barrier of entry is too high, and the top end of the bracket is the same DUE TO SEEDING... not even direct skills.
Yes, we the viewers want to see high level starcraft. But we want to see organic high level starcraft, a great player's dominating tear through the bracket or an underdog's blazing triumph over tough opponents, not seeded showmatches.
Speaking of underdogs, as a region with a single seed. Non-Korea Asia's spot is basically Oliveira's exclusive right for the foreseable future. Coffee, who absolutely killed it in the regionals, is going to have tough time because he HAS to beat Oliveira every regional; same with Firefly, Has or upcomers like Oriana and Nanami.
I think scrapping region-locked qualifiers for alternating-server qualifiers is the healthiest way to promote merit based competition.
Ah, wanted to add that I wish ESL made it clear the impact and points of the cups. I think participation SHOULD be rewarded, but it should be fair and transparent.
The kiiing is baaaaack!!!!
you must be in the open ??
Damn coffee getting in doesn’t seem right 😮
I am with you, I do not like this new setup.
Guess I'm not going :D
I don't like it. I prefer the Swiss format by far. In fact, I would prefer the playoff to be mostly Swiss as well, at least to determine the grand final match. For example, the top two scorers of the Swiss bracket will duke it out in the grand finale. I absolutely abhor the single elimination format for Starcraft, and the double elimination format is just a very clumsy attempt to address the crappiness of the single elimination format. Just do Swiss into grand finale, and that should be the golden standard.
This is done intentionally. Sc2 cannot support that many players so they want to establish a stable cast of around 20 people who always make it in and can sort of stay at the top. This is why the bracket is designed to keep the invited players at the top even if they lose all the games.
I get that impression aswell. Like you don't want another female tennis tournament where you simply don't know who will win the next big tournament. Sure, there are some favorites, but other than that, it's like playing a lottery. Who wanna see a new champion everyday ? I mean, who knows who is Serena Williams ? Then who knows who is Flavia Pennetta, Sloane Stephens, Samantha Stosur, Marion Bartoli, Anastasia Myskina or even Barbora Krejcikova ? Those are all Grand Slam Champions but I bet there are some of you who didn't know who they were...
We don't want that for sc2 either. We need some stability and some champions in order to identify ourselves to them and aspire to become like them. If there's a different champion in each tournament, then it'll be like playing poker.
well at least it's less shit than swiss