I think the most telling scene we have of Joanna is one you kind of brushed over: The story Jaime tells, of how she caught him and Cersei when they were little. It tells us several things about Joanna as a person: 1. SHE DIDN'T DO ANYTHING BY HALF MEASURES You know that line about how Tywin started shaving his head because he didn't believe in doing anything by half? Well, it seems Joanna was the same. She set up three different levels of twincest prevention: (1) Moving Jaime's room to the other side of the Rock, (2) Putting guards outside Cersei's door, (3) Threatening the twins that she could tell Tywin. Joanna was SERIOUS about this. 2. SHE WAS TRYING TO PROTECT THE TWINS, NOT PUNISH THEM In contrasts to the 3 measures she took to prevent it from happening again, Joanna did NOTHING to punish them for it. (I mean, being kept apart like that probably felt like a punishment to the twins, but it wasn't meant to be one.) Whatever she thought or felt about what had happened, her priority was to PROTECT her children, not punish them. 3. SHE KEPT SECRETS FROM TYWIN She didn't tell Tywin. (Presumably to protect the twins, because he would've been harsher about it than he would've.) But regardless, she didn't tell him. Their relationship seems pretty good, she was his confidant and adviser... but she didn't tell him absolutely everything.
Joanna was a Lannister. She was born and trained to play the GOT. Perhaps during her teenage years she hedged her bets between Aerys and Tywin. She would have done this to give her time to explore the character and ambition of each man so she could choose who would best suit her goals. Aerys was promised in a traditional arranged marriage to his sister. Joanna knew this but she still may have toyed with Aerys while exploring her chances of becoming his queen. When it became obvious to Joanna that Aerys would not marry her, then and only then did she choose Tywin. I note that although the the books describe Tywins love for her we are not told if it was reciprocated. Joanna was trained to be a dutiful, efficient, trophy wife. Playing this to perfection would allow her to pursue her own goals ( think Cersei except with charm and a measure of warmth). I believe Joanna did have a youthful indiscretion with Aerys. Too much wine one night, flattered by his infatuation and she accidentally got in over her head and ended up going all the way. Joanna may have regretted her actions and withdrawn from Aerys in order to gain control of the situation. Aerys was not used to not getting what he wanted and Joanna’s behaviour would lead his infatuation to turn into a full blown obsession. When it became obvious that Joanna was going to marry Tywin I think Aerys blackmailed her into continued ‘relations’. Aerys threatened to tell Tywin that he had had Joanna first. Tywins pride was legendary. He would not have married Joanna if her affair with Aerys was public knowledge. This would have left Joanna up the creek without a paddle. I think Joanna continued a clandestine relationship with Aerys. I also believe this relationship was coercive. Joanna was trapped into it by Aerys because Aerys had the power to destroy her. Maybe Joanna asked Rhaella to banish her. Lets say Joanna came clean with the Queen and they planned Joanna’s banishment because it gave them both what they wanted/needed. Joanna got out of an untenable situation and Rhaella got rid of an embarrassment. Also if Joanna had this long term complicated love hate and completely unsuitable relationship with Aerys it lays the foundation for Cersei’s unsuitable relationship with Jaime. Like mother like daughter. Cersei had to get it from somewhere and providing Cersei is Joanna and Tywins daughter Then Joanna could be the source of some of Cersei ‘s personality traits. Joanna may have got neutral write ups in the history books because she was such a good player at the GOT that she never revealed her true self and managed to keep her fucked up ‘relationship’ with Aerys a secret.
Thank you so much for doing this video. Joanna Lannister is a character that makes me intensely curious for some reason. I think she must have been a bit of a bad ass to put up with Tywin and the idea that she could have influenced him with how he dealt with the Reynes and Tarbecks is one I've toyed with for ages. Thanks again guys 😊
I believe the real comparison to Jaime and Cersei's relationship is not their parents, but Rhaella and Aerys II, as Jaime says to Cersei more than once.
Yeah. You have to remember, Jaime and Cersei grew up during the Targaryen dynasty. They were brought up on stories of princes and princesses, kings and queens, who were brother-sister couples.
Have you ever considered that Tyrion could be a chimera - fathered by both Aerys & Tywin. A lion with Dragon wings in mythology & the description that Oberyn gave points out at least three things that a human Chimera may present with mismatched eyes & hair plus genitals of both sexes. I think it's a perfect way for him to be both Tywins true son & be a Targ.
Possible, but wildly unlikely. Human chimeras are vanishingly rare (although cat chimeras are very common) and so are fraternal twins sired by different fathers. For that to happen Joanna would have had to have slept with Tywin and been raped by Aerys within a day or two of each other. I haven't read the World Book yet (it's on my coffee table waiting) but... did Aerys have any Baratheon blood? Because Tyrion's only Lannister feature is the one green eye. His hair seems to be a mix of Targaryen white-blonde and Baratheon black.
@@kalibhakta8640 There were black eyed and blackhaired Targeryans from a marriage to a Dornish princess which did surface from time to time. King Egg had an uncle who was heir to the throne was black haired and eyed who died during the combat during The Hedge Knight. However, Johanna and Tywin were both cousins. So green eyes could come from mother and black could indeed come from Aerys. It wasn't uncommon for monstrous stillborn children to be born to Targeryans either. So maybe that is why Tywin hated Tyrion because he knew he was truly a bastard and when his sister commented on how Tyrion took after Tywin in his manner and ways.
Hey great video . I find Joanna a very interesting character. I would like to share an idea. Tywin and Joanna lived with the royal family in the Red Keep from a young age and they both had a close relationship with the prince (Aerys)...I have the theory that maybe they started working together as allies firts, for a common porpuse, as Lannisters and... then.. fell in love with each other, as a result of that. Let me say that when Aerys was young, he wasnt crazy or paranoid at all, he just was capricious and egocentric , what by the way, makes a person easy to manipulate. What if Tywin and Joanna, both Lannisters remember, decided to work together to...gain the trust of Aerys? I feel like they could have been very similar in a sense plus the fact that they could have had common goals also. Like, the raise and prosperity of their house, for example. Joanna could have been as ambitous and stubborn as Tywin was. Maybe Tywin saw his equal in Joanna. I think that , that could have been the reason why they got along so well and also forTywin to trust and valued her so much.
Holy crap much better camera set up. Well done!!! I was recently watching your videos from 4 years ago. Life then all but Go back and watch your early videos it's so different.
Finally someone who dive deep into Lannister lure, is it easy to find stuff on targaryens and Starks the most channels just have lan the clever and the ones that we already know
1:38:40 - Recall that in the Red Keep: "the walls have ears", and there are spies everywhere. The spymaster is always listening. In Casterly Rock, there would be substantially fewer ears to listen for the spymaster, bribes would be much higher (not least because Casterly rock is so wealthy) and the design of the castle isn't to allow spies to listen, watch, and gain access to many locations (as far as we know).
Great point, we tried to acknowledge the difference between Casterly Rock and the Red Keep re: spies and the like, but we probably could've gone farther. Hopefully we see Casterly Rock before series' end (I expect we will) and get more detail!
Oh snap...if JoAnna doesn't even know whose Tyrions father is, then maybe us readers will never know either. If asked, GRRM will say it's undiscernable and you have to make up your mind for yourself. IMO Tywin raised Tyrion so that makes him the true father
I really doubt that Joanna was ruthless like Tywin. A good love match usually has people w/opposite personality types meshing together. So I bet she was kind, very beautiful or else Aerys wouldn't have wanted her and her twins wouldn't have looked as good if she didn't either, and she was surely intelligent too or else Tywin wouldn't have loved her. I doubt she liked him destroying the Reines like he did, but I also bet she never got in Tywin's way in how he liked to deal w/things and always supported his actions overall.
I am new to this channel and I see this is a 3yr old video. But after listening to this I can say better late then never, you did an awesome job on this.
I don't usually leave comments, and I know this is an older video, so I don't really expect any type of response. I'm usually more of a shit starter, and parade through comments, looking for points I don't agree with, so I can have a bit of fun, and sow the seeds of chaos, but I must say, this is one of the best communities I've been honored to sort of be a part of. I usually watch your more single targeted subjects, not watching almost any of the show recaps, or breakdowns, or whatever they may be, (As you can tell, i don't pay much attention to them. Lol) but I've watched most all your other episodes, all the way back as far as I can, and I'm glad to see the growth, and an glad to be have found your channel. As someone who doesn't have the books, and has never ever read as much as a page of the books, I'm able to say that I can out debate most of my friends on topics, I really should have no business being a part of, so to say. Thank you for being my learning tool, and I look forward to being a subscriber, and soon to be, hopefully, a consistent, and helpful member of said, amazing community. I wish you luck in the wars to come!
Also, didn't share this, but this is my favorite episode although the episode on the Blackfish, and all of the episodes on the Blackfyre Rebellions are up there on my list as well!
My guess is Joanna was both the gas to Tywin's fire and the yin to Tywin's yang depending on the circumstances. He was proud because she likely took care of things at Casterly Rock while he was off in Kings Landing serving as hand. I highly doubt she agreed with or ever enjoyed what Tywin did with the Reynes and Tarbecks, but she probably knew it was a necessity, at least in Tywin's opinion and didn't have any real sway in that situation. I believe Tywin loved Joanna or at least the idea of her while Aerys II just wanted Joanna because he was used to getting what he wanted and she most likely kept refusing his sexual advances which he saw as a challenge. I think Tyrion may be Aerys' child by assault and Joanna never told Tywin as she knew he'd try to go after Aerys and it would lead to war, so she kept quiet to avoid unnecessary bloodshed, only for Tywin to realize the truth when she died giving birth to their "son". It would help explain why Tywin wanted to let Tyrion be swept away by the sea and why he became colder after Joanna's death. The one woman he had loved and trusted had betrayed him, at least in his eyes, by keeping Tyrion's actual true paternal heritage a secret. It makes more sense than him just hating Tyrion for Joanna's death given Tyrion was the last "gift" his wife died trying to give him. I don't know if Joanna was actually in love with Tywin, but I'm fairly certain they were at least fond of each other in some way, if only because they were family. Do not forget Targaryens had a tendency to give birth to either very deformed or stillborn children. We must also take into account that it fits the timeline as Joanna was visiting Kings Landing for a tournament around the time of Tyrion's conception which would give Aerys the opportunity to take her by force if he wanted to and Tywin would have been way too busy and preoccupied with preparations or activities happening during the tournament to have known what his ex friend had done to his wife.
For Tywin to love her the way he did I think she had to be compassionate and smart. I would also think very submissive considering how much of an alpha Tywin is. Now I'm starting to think she was more lioness than submissive. I didnt realize how close she was with the Princess of Dorne. I think Dornish (especially Martell) women are raised tougher and tasked with more than women in the rest of the kingdoms and look down on girly girls that play with dolls. So if they got along so well that they were ready to combine houses says Joanna had some boldness to her (another characteristic that would attract Tywin to her). Starting to think Joanna has some skeletons that's about to come out. With her knowing Aerys and how disrespectful and vulgar he was why would the comments about her breasts be so humiliating? unless he saw them before. I would think she could handle that type of disrespect. Never thought about Joanna's character now you have me wondering.
Q B I think Jamie and Cercei are the Mad King's children. That is why he was so keen on having Jaime close by. That would mean that Tyrion was Tywin's only true child.
I don’t think she was submissive at all. If she held sway over Tywin, I could easily see she was the more dominate partner in the relationship. In BDSM it’s quite common men of power like to submit in the bedroom. If she held sway over him I can easily see a man as fierce and hard as Tywin softened around Joanna and she was the only one he confided his “weaknesses” to. She could make him smile and let down his guard. I imagine she was fierce but also his comfort.
@@theinvisiblewoman6783 GREAT theory! I never thought about it like that. This fits perfectly with Tywin's personality I could definitely see this being true
There will be a supplemental release by GRRM later this year with new information on Maegar and Aenys. We will be tackling that subject once that comes out!
This is an old comment but in Fire and Blood it said something about Aenys the son of Aegon I and Rhaneys and how he was sickly and that Visenya was considered barren…then one day Visenya is all I’m pregnant, it was said she was rumored to be into dark magic and such I wonder if she did something magic wise to get pregnant with Maegor and that’s why he couldn’t have children. He was created with magic and was unable to produce children because of it.
Speaking of the Ginormous Lannister family tree .. Out of curiosity .. How is it possible that Brandon Stark doesn't have bastard children out there? ..or does he?
Nathan McCracken i thought it had something to do with the blackwoods possibly being decendence of the warg king that the stark kings fought against, supposedly they bred with the children and had some of there abilities that would explain bloodraven and also the starks took there women and bred with them thus explaining the greensight and warging abilities of the starks. not 100% sure on all of that but i heard it before so idk. would be a cool video subject.
These are all believable theories, but the thing that makes me believe mine is that the Blackwoods are seemingly guarding a huge Weirwood, and there're not many Weirwoods south of the Neck, so to me it's like they were dispatched to look after the tree, or the tree is there because they were dispatched, which makes me think they are are something similar to being Northern ambassadors to the Riverlands, for example, and they would need an ambassador because the Pact happened in the Riverlands
We do know for a fact Aerys and Rhaella did not like each other or want to be married. I think for Tywin to respect Joanna so much she would have had to have been somewhat ruthless and calculating like Tywin but also compassionate enough to soften Tywin somewhat. I imagine Joanna was fierce enough to stand up to Tywin but also soft enough that she was the one person he let his guard down with. I imagine her something like Jamie. But without a doubt a interesting woman.
Ahem. In Westeros, first cousin marriage is not considered incest. This is actually true of quite a few cultures, both historical and modern. I think it's becoming less common in the American South, but the jokes are there for a reason.
I’m one of the eye roll people. I fully think Tyrion is Tywin’s son. From the timeline I have seen Joanna was in Casterly Rock when Tyrion was conceived. If anything I think Jamie is also Tywin’s son but Cersei could have been Aerys. Because fraternal twins can have two fathers. Incredibly rare but despite Tyrion’s fascination with dragons (which isn’t enough evidence for parentage.) Cersei is compared to Aerys multiple times. I rather all three be Tywin’s children. But that’s just me.
Great upload, thanks for posting! Btw if you aren't a teacher, you should think about being one. You have a way with speaking and keeping the audience engaged that is needed in todays classrooms.
Wow, this video is awetacular! BTW:- I'm not sure if you get this comment, but, if a Kingsguard had seen something strange between Aerys and Joanna, wouldn't Barristan have known for a certainty that they had a relationship? I may be wrong, but... can you think about it?
Has the thought of Jamie's dream with Joanna one sent with a glass candle been considered. I believe it was someone getting in Jamie's head with a glass candle and is disguised as Joanna but I don't know who is the person controlling the glass candle
Not sure if you have a suggestions page for your Fandomedia podcast but keep an eye on American Gods. Neil Gaiman is involved in the adaption and Ian McShane looks like he could steal the show as Mr. Wednesday.
Three things 1. Maybe Joanna was banished from the court by the queen to avoid any fights between the king and the hand. And everybody presumed she was offended. 2. Did Cercei killed her mother? She remembered that Joanna caught her and Jamie playing around and forbid them. She did killed her friend in the valanquar story. She was possessive and jealous even then. Maybe she poisoned her. And that is why Tyrion is misshaped. I mean beside the fact he is a little person, witch can be explained by the fact his parents were genetically too close and so on. 3. Did Tywin really loved Tyrion? I mean, he is protective of Tyrion in the matter of his love affairs. Tywin is very suspicious of people. He knows that Tyrion looks the way he looks and he will never be really attractive to women. He tries to protect him from his own follies and tries to make him face the truth. I mean take the example of Shae, Tyrion is madly in love with her and he makes tremendous efforts to protect and care for her. He even goes so far as to threaten his own nephew. ( I know it wasn't Shae there, but it was all done to protect Shae.) That is his weakness, he needs to be loved and Tywin doesn't understand that because he never felt the need for love as his son does. Tywin speaks in defence of Tyrion at his son weeding whit Sansa. He counsel Tyrion on his marriage and its political importance. Even at Tyrion's trial he makes an offer, the best he can in those circumstance. Does he believe that Tyrion killed Jeoffry? Well, I think he does. Even Jamie thinks he did it or at least has some doubts about his innocence. There is the matter of Shae... Why did Tywin slept with her? That is just stupid, cruel and disturbing, but maybe he wanted to make Shae feel safe so he could find the truth from her. Or maybe he was just using her, he had the tendencies to treat people as objects even his own children. That for me is very hard to understand. Why Shae? He had a purpose but what was it?
Aerys Smashed I'm calling it. Tywin just couldn't get it done for her so the king had to come un and fulfill manly duties. Tywin got cucked but loved Joanna so he let it happen
@1:45:30 - slightly punnier as "by then she was probably imp-pregnated" - but getting back on-topic, this video is really making me reassess what I know about Joanna. I've always imagined her as a dutiful, loving mother and wife, but let's not forget that she did the "lion's share" of the child-rearing of the twins. Jaime came out - by his own admission when he compares himself to the younger Loras - a smug, entitled and cocky and only after significant life experiences does he start to develop some positive character traits. Cersei, obviously, never does. So, just as the "Harrenhal Conspiracy" theory posits that Lyanna may have been an impulsive trouble-maker, it's quite possible that Joanna was a lot more like Cersei than I've been assuming. I always assumed that she would never in a million years cheat on Tywin, but now I see that she could have been an active participant in an affair with Aerys, and Moonboy for all I know. I mean ... Cersei was powerfully attracted to Aerys' son, Rhaegar, and cavalier about cheating on not only Robert, but Jaime. If Joanna had demonstrated strong moral convictions about fidelity, Cersei might display at least a bit of guilt about hers.
what if her death turned Cersei cold hearted? I don't think she was always as cold remember Cersei would pray to ask for her mother to come back until Tywin told her it was useless and with Tywin as the only parent left = coldhearted, devoted to family pride Cersei. I think Joanna had to be compassionate and smart/calculating for Tywin to love her the way he did.
love your work but I'm about 30 mins in and so far way too much generic speculation about the random scheming that might or might not have happened...there's no info on that part.of the timeline.... just move on
I am dying. This man has already been talking for NINE MINIUTES and he hasn't actually said anything yet. Dude, I'm all in for a 2 hour discussion of Joanna Lannister. I'm in for a 2 hour discussion about just about anything about this series. But you have to get the content.
Love Game of Thrones...kind of reminds me of Dumpy Trumpy!! Blonde hair and orange skin who could want more oh and the gold of Casterly Rock, Fred made his own gold from his slumlord palace in New York suburbs!
Awesome video guys. I have an off subject question that I'm hoping you can help me with. I was having a discussion about Melisandre recently and had it in my head that GRRM had confirmed during a panel that her age was 100+. I couldn't find that online so I was wondering if maybe I heard that on here at some point?
(sorry huge GOT fan.) Catelyn and Ned are not cousins (Play at 20:53 and listen closely): theirs was a political marriage, Ned only had one aunt (on his mother's side). Branda Stark married into House Rogers. Rickard is the one who Married his cousin Lyarra. (I looked at different versons of Stark and Tully family trees) Also The Black Fish never had a true born child because he never married; seeing that The BlackFish is the only sibling to Hoster there is no way they can be cousins. House Whent (Catlyn mother's house) died out. nobodysuspectsthebutterfly.tumblr.com/image/101167931933 i.imgur.com/UuiHgJ4.png (this one says that Catelyn has two older bothers who died. Their last child who died in childbirth with their mother is not.) i.imgur.com/Ed5ta.jpg awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Hoster_Tully#Family
I'm unsure if twenty-year-old Aerys was a decent guy. I know Tywin got sick of his shit later in life but Aerys made Tywin hand exactly because he was cruel and ruthless. Aerys may have even had something to do with the tragedy at Summerhall. He was a pyromaniac and often pyromaniacs show signs of it early in their life. I think he was a bit crazy from the beginning.
Have you noticed Danny asks Sir Bold to tell her bout her father but when things are about to paint her father in a really bad way Danny is the one that forces the topic to be changed or is it just me? Great Video!
Yes, and the "nurture" in the nature vs. nurture debate probably influenced the personalities of the three far more than the "nature" did. The more magical properties of their blood would be inherited from their biological fathers, but at least for Jon and Tyrion, the fathers who raised them are far more important to how they view the world, and make decisions. Poor Dany didn't have a kind father figure for very long, and not many good male role models at all after the death of Ser Willem Derry. She really holds onto that memory, though. All she had was Viserys, instead of a father *or* mother. None of them had nurturing mothers to turn to or help guide them through the world. I have wondered about how this affected the three of them, as well as Jaime and Cersei.
Sophia Wilson I agree w you Tyrion & Tywin have much in common; Tyrion is definitely Lannister. They're extremely intelligent, great rulers, manipulate w their unnerving eyes, hate laughter, love whores, & love the game. Jaime lacks all the above traits. (Which is good. He's not a manipulative megalomaniac who secretly had a TUNNEL DUG to his fave whores.)
20:55 Pretty sure you meant Rickard Stark Ned's father married his cousin not Ned himself. I'm not trying to nit pick, I just kinda freaked out thinking Ned and Cat were cousins and I'd totally missed it.
I love your guys' channel, but holy shit please tell the guy reading the book passages to ease up on the whispery renaissance fair voice. Can't stand it.
I'm one of those freaks that thinks Tywin might be sterile. I won't go into all my reasons but I will mention two. 1. I find it impossible to believe that a man like Tywin, a man that is extremely concerned with legacy and the Lannister name would wait 3 years from marriage to the birth of his "first born". I can't accept he wouldn't devote all his free time to producing an heir. I don't buy it at all. That and he lived in the tower of the hand for years that had a secret passage to a rub and tug up the road. Seriously though, does Tywin seem like a guy who would NOT be concerned with making an heir? 3 years is almost a full generation in Westeros. Thanks.
Great stuff, but the fostering issue is not exactly as you put it. Robert is being fostered in the Vale because his parents died tragically and at that time, Ned isn't the heir of anything, he's the second son of the Lord of Winterfell, so it's quite likely that he might end up at the Wall.
Hi there, thanks for the comment. Robert's fostering at the Vale began before his parents died. We are not claiming Lord Rickard and Lord Steffon planned for their sons to be friends, we're using it as a familiar example of how powerful these young bonds can be.
It's all about Lann the Clever and his hideous mating practices. thats it. the whole Lannister Story. Bred In, Bred Out. Where are all the Lannister bastards?
We are now at 37 min and I can't help feeling this could have been condensed. Have you considered a script sir? You ramble as badly as I do. The upside is that I've discovered that if I stay up late and put on one of your histories I actually do the things I'm supposed to do during the day. So um, thanks for helping me clean my room I guess? My mom is sure to become a fan...
A few things. I do write scripts for every episode not including TV show coverage episodes and a few other exceptions. They are usually over 30 pages (it takes a while, ha!) Condensing is not what our listeners/viewers want. They want immersion. There are literally a hundred or more GoT/ASOIAF content creators making condensed presentations. Many of them are awesome, but that's not our goal. Taste and preference aside, there are very few creators doing the long form deep dives like this. We realize it's not for everyone, but popularity is overrated. I want to appeal to the very obsessed fan, because that's what I am :)
bloody gross, i never knew joanna was born from the brother of tywin's father... first cousisn, are you bloody kidding me? geh... bloody disgusting, and now jaime and cersei are doing even worse
1:56:30 I don't think necessary that "fishwife" story was a red herring. I think the fisherman's daughter was Ashara Dayne disguised and that was Jon in her belly. If you watch all of Order of the Green Hand's videos on it, it all comes together nicely. I think Jon really is a Dayne, not a Targ too. And he would be a real Stark.
A lot of theories are possible here, but the point regarding Jon is that not all the stories are true. He obviously can't be Lyanna's son AND Ashara's son so at least one of the stories is a red herring.
Heather you are not the only one who believe that Jon is not the son Rheagar but the direction were the show is going. There three women who believe to be Jon's Mother The Fisherman's Daughter who is separate character, Ashara Dayne, Lyanna Stark, Wyalla (Wet Nurse). I believe it also Ashara Dayne.
Making Tyrion a targaryian would be almost as stupid as the last few seasons of the show. I cannot believe that George will do something so fucking stupid. It also wouldn’t make sense with anything we’ve gotten in the books. What would make sense however, is cersie and Jamie and being the mad Kong’s children. That would go with Jamie’s dreams/visions and it would go hand and hand with the way the actions of the twins. I hope George doesn’t let the recent extreme popularity effect the way he thinks and writes. These ASOIAF books are the best entertainment we have right now considering the fact that George has more talent in his pinky finger than all the clowns working in Hollywood these days put together
Joanna returned to Kings landing 272 for Anniversary Trney Tyrion born she died 273 pretty gestationally suspicious Aerys is Dad all the foreshadowing he will ride Viserion will not work if he is not.
So far im 30 minutes in and everything has just been: "what if Joanna was invovled" even though theres really zero evidence or reason to think this. So far this is probably one of the worst episodes ive seen of History of Westeros.
Co p yeah me too.. This guy is just draggin draggin and draggin the same thing.. He cud hve said things in short.. Can't believe ppl r tuning into this 2 hr video and not gettin bored
I don't mind hearing the names of donors.I get it.I do.Give them a title too, they deserve it! But when I have to hear some bullshit fan fic that they give themselves,it does get annoying.Oooh! Al Saed went to Dragonstone and the Velaryons were there?!....He then went to Dragonstone!!! AMAZING! I can't wait to hear what this random name imagines doing next! Seriously,stop.
![TEEDEE TADA - DIAMOND NARAKORN X LEGO LYKN [Special Dance Performance]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/QgtZedFeumA/mqdefault.jpg)
I think the most telling scene we have of Joanna is one you kind of brushed over: The story Jaime tells, of how she caught him and Cersei when they were little. It tells us several things about Joanna as a person:
1. SHE DIDN'T DO ANYTHING BY HALF MEASURES
You know that line about how Tywin started shaving his head because he didn't believe in doing anything by half? Well, it seems Joanna was the same. She set up three different levels of twincest prevention: (1) Moving Jaime's room to the other side of the Rock, (2) Putting guards outside Cersei's door, (3) Threatening the twins that she could tell Tywin. Joanna was SERIOUS about this.
2. SHE WAS TRYING TO PROTECT THE TWINS, NOT PUNISH THEM
In contrasts to the 3 measures she took to prevent it from happening again, Joanna did NOTHING to punish them for it. (I mean, being kept apart like that probably felt like a punishment to the twins, but it wasn't meant to be one.) Whatever she thought or felt about what had happened, her priority was to PROTECT her children, not punish them.
3. SHE KEPT SECRETS FROM TYWIN
She didn't tell Tywin. (Presumably to protect the twins, because he would've been harsher about it than he would've.) But regardless, she didn't tell him. Their relationship seems pretty good, she was his confidant and adviser... but she didn't tell him absolutely everything.
I didn't think it was possible to do 2 hours on Joanna Lannister
I didn't either! I expected it to be more like 1 hour and 20 minutes but it just kept growing.
Michael Watson it shows how good author grrm is
Pity about all that filler talk; this could be edited into a nice 15-minute video.
@@HistoryofWesteros per favore se possibile potresti inserire inserire i sottotitoli 🥺🥺🥺
Joanna was a Lannister. She was born and trained to play the GOT. Perhaps during her teenage years she hedged her bets between Aerys and Tywin. She would have done this to give her time to explore the character and ambition of each man so she could choose who would best suit her goals. Aerys was promised in a traditional arranged marriage to his sister. Joanna knew this but she still may have toyed with Aerys while exploring her chances of becoming his queen. When it became obvious to Joanna that Aerys would not marry her, then and only then did she choose Tywin. I note that although the the books describe Tywins love for her we are not told if it was reciprocated. Joanna was trained to be a dutiful, efficient, trophy wife. Playing this to perfection would allow her to pursue her own goals ( think Cersei except with charm and a measure of warmth). I believe Joanna did have a youthful indiscretion with Aerys. Too much wine one night, flattered by his infatuation and she accidentally got in over her head and ended up going all the way. Joanna may have regretted her actions and withdrawn from Aerys in order to gain control of the situation. Aerys was not used to not getting what he wanted and Joanna’s behaviour would lead his infatuation to turn into a full blown obsession. When it became obvious that Joanna was going to marry Tywin I think Aerys blackmailed her into continued ‘relations’. Aerys threatened to tell Tywin that he had had Joanna first. Tywins pride was legendary. He would not have married Joanna if her affair with Aerys was public knowledge. This would have left Joanna up the creek without a paddle. I think Joanna continued a clandestine relationship with Aerys. I also believe this relationship was coercive. Joanna was trapped into it by Aerys because Aerys had the power to destroy her. Maybe Joanna asked Rhaella to banish her. Lets say Joanna came clean with the Queen and they planned Joanna’s banishment because it gave them both what they wanted/needed. Joanna got out of an untenable situation and Rhaella got rid of an embarrassment. Also if Joanna had this long term complicated love hate and completely unsuitable relationship with Aerys it lays the foundation for Cersei’s unsuitable relationship with Jaime. Like mother like daughter. Cersei had to get it from somewhere and providing Cersei is Joanna and Tywins daughter Then Joanna could be the source of some of Cersei ‘s personality traits. Joanna may have got neutral write ups in the history books because she was such a good player at the GOT that she never revealed her true self and managed to keep her fucked up ‘relationship’ with Aerys a secret.
10:40 When he actually starts talking about Joanna...
Thank you so much for doing this video. Joanna Lannister is a character that makes me intensely curious for some reason. I think she must have been a bit of a bad ass to put up with Tywin and the idea that she could have influenced him with how he dealt with the Reynes and Tarbecks is one I've toyed with for ages. Thanks again guys 😊
I was supposed to audit a Guatemalan brothel but then you upload a video!
This is one of the best comments we've ever received. I may still be laughing about it on my deathbed.
Rich FiveFiveSix I hope it's not the brothel I go on my lunch breaks, no seriously which one is it?
you've been listening to JRE again.
Don't forget to check for Tywin's secret passages
Not judging what you do for a job but why didn't you do your job first?
I believe the real comparison to Jaime and Cersei's relationship is not their parents, but Rhaella and Aerys II, as Jaime says to Cersei more than once.
Yeah. You have to remember, Jaime and Cersei grew up during the Targaryen dynasty. They were brought up on stories of princes and princesses, kings and queens, who were brother-sister couples.
Have you ever considered that Tyrion could be a chimera - fathered by both Aerys & Tywin. A lion with Dragon wings in mythology & the description that Oberyn gave points out at least three things that a human Chimera may present with mismatched eyes & hair plus genitals of both sexes. I think it's a perfect way for him to be both Tywins true son & be a Targ.
Possible, but wildly unlikely. Human chimeras are vanishingly rare (although cat chimeras are very common) and so are fraternal twins sired by different fathers. For that to happen Joanna would have had to have slept with Tywin and been raped by Aerys within a day or two of each other. I haven't read the World Book yet (it's on my coffee table waiting) but... did Aerys have any Baratheon blood? Because Tyrion's only Lannister feature is the one green eye. His hair seems to be a mix of Targaryen white-blonde and Baratheon black.
@@kalibhakta8640 There were black eyed and blackhaired Targeryans from a marriage to a Dornish princess which did surface from time to time. King Egg had an uncle who was heir to the throne was black haired and eyed who died during the combat during The Hedge Knight.
However, Johanna and Tywin were both cousins. So green eyes could come from mother and black could indeed come from Aerys.
It wasn't uncommon for monstrous stillborn children to be born to Targeryans either. So maybe that is why Tywin hated Tyrion because he knew he was truly a bastard and when his sister commented on how Tyrion took after Tywin in his manner and ways.
Hey great video . I find Joanna a very interesting character.
I would like to share an idea.
Tywin and Joanna lived with the royal family in the Red Keep from a young age and they both had a close relationship with the prince (Aerys)...I have the theory that maybe they started working together as allies firts, for a common porpuse, as Lannisters and... then.. fell in love with each other, as a result of that. Let me say that when Aerys was young, he wasnt crazy or paranoid at all, he just was capricious and egocentric , what by the way, makes a person easy to manipulate. What if Tywin and Joanna, both Lannisters remember, decided to work together to...gain the trust of Aerys?
I feel like they could have been very similar in a sense plus the fact that they could have had common goals also. Like, the raise and prosperity of their house, for example. Joanna could have been as ambitous and stubborn as Tywin was. Maybe Tywin saw his equal in Joanna. I think that , that could have been the reason why they got along so well and also forTywin to trust and valued her so much.
Can I pirate the phrase "Between Casterly Rock and a hard place" for my own general use? Lmfao. Gold.
Holy crap much better camera set up. Well done!!! I was recently watching your videos from 4 years ago. Life then all but Go back and watch your early videos it's so different.
This morning I was giving this episode another listen-to as I attended to other business. I definitely think it's one of your best works!
Finally someone who dive deep into Lannister lure, is it easy to find stuff on targaryens and Starks the most channels just have lan the clever and the ones that we already know
1:38:40 - Recall that in the Red Keep: "the walls have ears", and there are spies everywhere. The spymaster is always listening. In Casterly Rock, there would be substantially fewer ears to listen for the spymaster, bribes would be much higher (not least because Casterly rock is so wealthy) and the design of the castle isn't to allow spies to listen, watch, and gain access to many locations (as far as we know).
lan the cleaver? hide in the walls and used secrets to get casterly rock.
Great point, we tried to acknowledge the difference between Casterly Rock and the Red Keep re: spies and the like, but we probably could've gone farther. Hopefully we see Casterly Rock before series' end (I expect we will) and get more detail!
Oh snap...if JoAnna doesn't even know whose Tyrions father is, then maybe us readers will never know either. If asked, GRRM will say it's undiscernable and you have to make up your mind for yourself. IMO Tywin raised Tyrion so that makes him the true father
This was an awesome episode. Thank you so much. I enjoyed every minute!
i think i have watched every one off your videos, you make the best and most detailed aSoIaF theories. love the vids guys, keep it up...
I really doubt that Joanna was ruthless like Tywin. A good love match usually has people w/opposite personality types meshing together. So I bet she was kind, very beautiful or else Aerys wouldn't have wanted her and her twins wouldn't have looked as good if she didn't either, and she was surely intelligent too or else Tywin wouldn't have loved her. I doubt she liked him destroying the Reines like he did, but I also bet she never got in Tywin's way in how he liked to deal w/things and always supported his actions overall.
Tyrion has probably her personality
My eyes lit up when i saw there was a new Westros History video :)
I learned a ton from this episode. Thank you. Lovely content as always.
so joanna is sort of like olena tyrell
Quite possibly! Had she lived a full life I imagine the comparison would be even closer.
Ha! I just rewatched TBFR part 6 The Golden Company because I was craving some Westeros History then I wake up and you've uploaded a new video, nice
Great intro and great video. You put a ton of work into this. Thanks!
I am new to this channel and I see this is a 3yr old video. But after listening to this I can say better late then never, you did an awesome job on this.
I don't usually leave comments, and I know this is an older video, so I don't really expect any type of response. I'm usually more of a shit starter, and parade through comments, looking for points I don't agree with, so I can have a bit of fun, and sow the seeds of chaos, but I must say, this is one of the best communities I've been honored to sort of be a part of. I usually watch your more single targeted subjects, not watching almost any of the show recaps, or breakdowns, or whatever they may be, (As you can tell, i don't pay much attention to them. Lol) but I've watched most all your other episodes, all the way back as far as I can, and I'm glad to see the growth, and an glad to be have found your channel. As someone who doesn't have the books, and has never ever read as much as a page of the books, I'm able to say that I can out debate most of my friends on topics, I really should have no business being a part of, so to say. Thank you for being my learning tool, and I look forward to being a subscriber, and soon to be, hopefully, a consistent, and helpful member of said, amazing community. I wish you luck in the wars to come!
Also, didn't share this, but this is my favorite episode although the episode on the Blackfish, and all of the episodes on the Blackfyre Rebellions are up there on my list as well!
Hey. The narration on this episode is extra special! Congrats!
My guess is Joanna was both the gas to Tywin's fire and the yin to Tywin's yang depending on the circumstances. He was proud because she likely took care of things at Casterly Rock while he was off in Kings Landing serving as hand. I highly doubt she agreed with or ever enjoyed what Tywin did with the Reynes and Tarbecks, but she probably knew it was a necessity, at least in Tywin's opinion and didn't have any real sway in that situation. I believe Tywin loved Joanna or at least the idea of her while Aerys II just wanted Joanna because he was used to getting what he wanted and she most likely kept refusing his sexual advances which he saw as a challenge. I think Tyrion may be Aerys' child by assault and Joanna never told Tywin as she knew he'd try to go after Aerys and it would lead to war, so she kept quiet to avoid unnecessary bloodshed, only for Tywin to realize the truth when she died giving birth to their "son". It would help explain why Tywin wanted to let Tyrion be swept away by the sea and why he became colder after Joanna's death. The one woman he had loved and trusted had betrayed him, at least in his eyes, by keeping Tyrion's actual true paternal heritage a secret. It makes more sense than him just hating Tyrion for Joanna's death given Tyrion was the last "gift" his wife died trying to give him. I don't know if Joanna was actually in love with Tywin, but I'm fairly certain they were at least fond of each other in some way, if only because they were family. Do not forget Targaryens had a tendency to give birth to either very deformed or stillborn children. We must also take into account that it fits the timeline as Joanna was visiting Kings Landing for a tournament around the time of Tyrion's conception which would give Aerys the opportunity to take her by force if he wanted to and Tywin would have been way too busy and preoccupied with preparations or activities happening during the tournament to have known what his ex friend had done to his wife.
The only 2 people to ever make Tywin laugh, Joanna and Arya.
For Tywin to love her the way he did I think she had to be compassionate and smart. I would also think very submissive considering how much of an alpha Tywin is. Now I'm starting to think she was more lioness than submissive. I didnt realize how close she was with the Princess of Dorne. I think Dornish (especially Martell) women are raised tougher and tasked with more than women in the rest of the kingdoms and look down on girly girls that play with dolls. So if they got along so well that they were ready to combine houses says Joanna had some boldness to her (another characteristic that would attract Tywin to her). Starting to think Joanna has some skeletons that's about to come out. With her knowing Aerys and how disrespectful and vulgar he was why would the comments about her breasts be so humiliating? unless he saw them before. I would think she could handle that type of disrespect. Never thought about Joanna's character now you have me wondering.
Q B I think Jamie and Cercei are the Mad King's children. That is why he was so keen on having Jaime close by. That would mean that Tyrion was Tywin's only true child.
I don’t think she was submissive at all. If she held sway over Tywin, I could easily see she was the more dominate partner in the relationship. In BDSM it’s quite common men of power like to submit in the bedroom. If she held sway over him I can easily see a man as fierce and hard as Tywin softened around Joanna and she was the only one he confided his “weaknesses” to. She could make him smile and let down his guard. I imagine she was fierce but also his comfort.
@@theinvisiblewoman6783 GREAT theory! I never thought about it like that. This fits perfectly with Tywin's personality I could definitely see this being true
Please do a piece on King Maegor the Cruel. The whole bit about the abominations born of his seed is so mysterious and strange. Consider it.
There will be a supplemental release by GRRM later this year with new information on Maegar and Aenys. We will be tackling that subject once that comes out!
it is suggest that Maester of Whisper poison Maegar the Curel new wives to make sure he no heirs with them.
King Steffon Winchester XII Owens
This is an old comment but in Fire and Blood it said something about Aenys the son of Aegon I and Rhaneys and how he was sickly and that Visenya was considered barren…then one day Visenya is all I’m pregnant, it was said she was rumored to be into dark magic and such I wonder if she did something magic wise to get pregnant with Maegor and that’s why he couldn’t have children. He was created with magic and was unable to produce children because of it.
Speaking of the Ginormous Lannister family tree .. Out of curiosity .. How is it possible that Brandon Stark doesn't have bastard children out there? ..or does he?
Hey show fans. This is a reminder to start reading the books.
I know this is off topic, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on why the blackwoods had to leave the north.
I think something similar. It's said they were exiled but I'm not so sure. If they were forced to leave the north I'd like to know why.
Nathan McCracken i thought it had something to do with the blackwoods possibly being decendence of the warg king that the stark kings fought against, supposedly they bred with the children and had some of there abilities that would explain bloodraven and also the starks took there women and bred with them thus explaining the greensight and warging abilities of the starks. not 100% sure on all of that but i heard it before so idk. would be a cool video subject.
michael rodriguez
I heard the same, it makes sense and ties up loose ends
I heard because they stood against the raise of Starks for the North that why they were exiled.
These are all believable theories, but the thing that makes me believe mine is that the Blackwoods are seemingly guarding a huge Weirwood, and there're not many Weirwoods south of the Neck, so to me it's like they were dispatched to look after the tree, or the tree is there because they were dispatched, which makes me think they are are something similar to being Northern ambassadors to the Riverlands, for example, and they would need an ambassador because the Pact happened in the Riverlands
Perhaps the stuff about Joanna has been written "recently", after Joffrey's death and Yandel is trying to ingratiate himself with the Tyrells
We do know for a fact Aerys and Rhaella did not like each other or want to be married. I think for Tywin to respect Joanna so much she would have had to have been somewhat ruthless and calculating like Tywin but also compassionate enough to soften Tywin somewhat. I imagine Joanna was fierce enough to stand up to Tywin but also soft enough that she was the one person he let his guard down with. I imagine her something like Jamie. But without a doubt a interesting woman.
Ahem. In Westeros, first cousin marriage is not considered incest. This is actually true of quite a few cultures, both historical and modern. I think it's becoming less common in the American South, but the jokes are there for a reason.
Mazzalicartho looks sick!!! My little boy is growing up!
I’m one of the eye roll people. I fully think Tyrion is Tywin’s son. From the timeline I have seen Joanna was in Casterly Rock when Tyrion was conceived. If anything I think Jamie is also Tywin’s son but Cersei could have been Aerys. Because fraternal twins can have two fathers. Incredibly rare but despite Tyrion’s fascination with dragons (which isn’t enough evidence for parentage.) Cersei is compared to Aerys multiple times. I rather all three be Tywin’s children. But that’s just me.
Thank God for the new video been too long!! Hahaha I know it's the off season keep them coming!!!
Great upload, thanks for posting!
Btw if you aren't a teacher, you should think about being one. You have a way with speaking and keeping the audience engaged that is needed in todays classrooms.
Thanks for the upload enjoy the show
Yesssss a new episode!!! Kiss kiss kiss I love you guys. So looking forward to getting into this vid. 😘😘😘🇦🇺
yay always love your videos you guys do such good work
Aziz does a great "married woman" impression.
Wow, this video is awetacular! BTW:- I'm not sure if you get this comment, but, if a Kingsguard had seen something strange between Aerys and Joanna, wouldn't Barristan have known for a certainty that they had a relationship? I may be wrong, but... can you think about it?
i just woke up, and this is on my feed!!! you guys fuckin rock!! :D
joanna lannister and the empire of dawn are not the same person! MIND IS BLOWN
Woah woah woah Ned Stark married his first cousin????
ha, sorry for the confusion. I had meant to say Ned's father did so... Ned's mother was Ned's father's first cousin.
No it was his father (Ned) who marry his cousin there also a Uncle who marry his half niece in the Stark's Family Tree.
Westeros History Ah yes Richard and Lyarra! Thank you for the response
Ja! i like this guy, seems like he is having fun. And it seems like he know what he is talking about
Has the thought of Jamie's dream with Joanna one sent with a glass candle been considered. I believe it was someone getting in Jamie's head with a glass candle and is disguised as Joanna but I don't know who is the person controlling the glass candle
Not sure if you have a suggestions page for your Fandomedia podcast but keep an eye on American Gods. Neil Gaiman is involved in the adaption and Ian McShane looks like he could steal the show as Mr. Wednesday.
I believe we'll be watching this, so if it's good (and I'm a huge McShane/Deadwood fan) then we may indeed cover it!
Three things
1. Maybe Joanna was banished from the court by the queen to avoid any fights between the king and the hand. And everybody presumed she was offended.
2. Did Cercei killed her mother? She remembered that Joanna caught her and Jamie playing around and forbid them. She did killed her friend in the valanquar story. She was possessive and jealous even then. Maybe she poisoned her. And that is why Tyrion is misshaped. I mean beside the fact he is a little person, witch can be explained by the fact his parents were genetically too close and so on.
3. Did Tywin really loved Tyrion? I mean, he is protective of Tyrion in the matter of his love affairs. Tywin is very suspicious of people. He knows that Tyrion looks the way he looks and he will never be really attractive to women. He tries to protect him from his own follies and tries to make him face the truth. I mean take the example of Shae, Tyrion is madly in love with her and he makes tremendous efforts to protect and care for her. He even goes so far as to threaten his own nephew. ( I know it wasn't Shae there, but it was all done to protect Shae.) That is his weakness, he needs to be loved and Tywin doesn't understand that because he never felt the need for love as his son does. Tywin speaks in defence of Tyrion at his son weeding whit Sansa. He counsel Tyrion on his marriage and its political importance. Even at Tyrion's trial he makes an offer, the best he can in those circumstance. Does he believe that Tyrion killed Jeoffry? Well, I think he does. Even Jamie thinks he did it or at least has some doubts about his innocence. There is the matter of Shae... Why did Tywin slept with her? That is just stupid, cruel and disturbing, but maybe he wanted to make Shae feel safe so he could find the truth from her. Or maybe he was just using her, he had the tendencies to treat people as objects even his own children. That for me is very hard to understand. Why Shae? He had a purpose but what was it?
Lots of information and most interesting,
Damn, so many videos! Good thing I work graveyards.
Aerys Smashed I'm calling it. Tywin just couldn't get it done for her so the king had to come un and fulfill manly duties. Tywin got cucked but loved Joanna so he let it happen
@1:45:30 - slightly punnier as "by then she was probably imp-pregnated" - but getting back on-topic, this video is really making me reassess what I know about Joanna. I've always imagined her as a dutiful, loving mother and wife, but let's not forget that she did the "lion's share" of the child-rearing of the twins. Jaime came out - by his own admission when he compares himself to the younger Loras - a smug, entitled and cocky and only after significant life experiences does he start to develop some positive character traits. Cersei, obviously, never does. So, just as the "Harrenhal Conspiracy" theory posits that Lyanna may have been an impulsive trouble-maker, it's quite possible that Joanna was a lot more like Cersei than I've been assuming. I always assumed that she would never in a million years cheat on Tywin, but now I see that she could have been an active participant in an affair with Aerys, and Moonboy for all I know. I mean ... Cersei was powerfully attracted to Aerys' son, Rhaegar, and cavalier about cheating on not only Robert, but Jaime. If Joanna had demonstrated strong moral convictions about fidelity, Cersei might display at least a bit of guilt about hers.
what if her death turned Cersei cold hearted? I don't think she was always as cold remember Cersei would pray to ask for her mother to come back until Tywin told her it was useless and with Tywin as the only parent left = coldhearted, devoted to family pride Cersei. I think Joanna had to be compassionate and smart/calculating for Tywin to love her the way he did.
love your work but I'm about 30 mins in and so far way too much generic speculation about the random scheming that might or might not have happened...there's no info on that part.of the timeline.... just move on
I appreciate the feedback. I have to admit, I agree that I got stuck on unknowns a bit too often.
REAVER 14 zz
welcome back
Great stuff as always guys but are u ever gonna do that Euron episode? Been waitin since u broke down The Forsaken
I wanted Euron to come out closer to the TV season, so it will definitely be out before July!
Excellent, lookin forward to an in depth breakdown! Keep up the awesome work & thanks for helping me stay sane when I'm on nightshift :D
Can you do about the Stannis and the northern forces? What do you think is going to happen? Also Tarbeck survivors??
I am dying. This man has already been talking for NINE MINIUTES and he hasn't actually said anything yet. Dude, I'm all in for a 2 hour discussion of Joanna Lannister. I'm in for a 2 hour discussion about just about anything about this series. But you have to get the content.
Lady Joanna is a great mysterious lady
Everyone knows dinosaurs wore Birkenstocks.
wtf, really an unexpected topic
Love Game of Thrones...kind of reminds me of Dumpy Trumpy!! Blonde hair and orange skin who could want more oh and the gold of Casterly Rock, Fred made his own gold from his slumlord palace in New York suburbs!
Awesome video guys.
I have an off subject question that I'm hoping you can help me with.
I was having a discussion about Melisandre recently and had it in my head that GRRM had confirmed during a panel that her age was 100+. I couldn't find that online so I was wondering if maybe I heard that on here at some point?
You may have heard it from us! GRRM has alluded to her being very old and I believe we've mentioned it.
Much appreciated.
This was great
will ýou guys make a video about Harrenhal and its many houses?
(sorry huge GOT fan.)
Catelyn and Ned are not cousins (Play at 20:53 and listen closely): theirs was a political marriage, Ned only had one aunt (on his mother's side). Branda Stark married into House Rogers. Rickard is the one who Married his cousin Lyarra. (I looked at different versons of Stark and Tully family trees) Also The Black Fish never had a true born child because he never married; seeing that The BlackFish is the only sibling to Hoster there is no way they can be cousins. House Whent (Catlyn mother's house) died out.
nobodysuspectsthebutterfly.tumblr.com/image/101167931933
i.imgur.com/UuiHgJ4.png (this one says that Catelyn has two older bothers who died. Their last child who died in childbirth with their mother is not.)
i.imgur.com/Ed5ta.jpg
awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Hoster_Tully#Family
what was the faceless man doing in westeroes in the first place??
i was thiking that yo
I'm unsure if twenty-year-old Aerys was a decent guy. I know Tywin got sick of his shit later in life but Aerys made Tywin hand exactly because he was cruel and ruthless. Aerys may have even had something to do with the tragedy at Summerhall. He was a pyromaniac and often pyromaniacs show signs of it early in their life. I think he was a bit crazy from the beginning.
Could you do an episode ranking the Targaryen Kings?
Have you noticed Danny asks Sir Bold to tell her bout her father but when things are about to paint her father in a really bad way Danny is the one that forces the topic to be changed or is it just me? Great Video!
MrScottie301 noo.. I dnt.. Bt i wnt to knw.. Please share the link dear!
2:04:25 Tywin was a different person in his private life, but not in public imo
Johanna was a schemer. She schemed with the mother of Elia Martell to marry her 2 children with the Martell children. This was in the books.
Birthday? Have you come early?
Jon, Tyrion, and Dany were all raised by men who were not their biological fathers...but who strongly shaped their characters nonetheless
Yes, and the "nurture" in the nature vs. nurture debate probably influenced the personalities of the three far more than the "nature" did. The more magical properties of their blood would be inherited from their biological fathers, but at least for Jon and Tyrion, the fathers who raised them are far more important to how they view the world, and make decisions. Poor Dany didn't have a kind father figure for very long, and not many good male role models at all after the death of Ser Willem Derry. She really holds onto that memory, though. All she had was Viserys, instead of a father *or* mother.
None of them had nurturing mothers to turn to or help guide them through the world. I have wondered about how this affected the three of them, as well as Jaime and Cersei.
Lexi E tyrion isn't confirmed
Because Tyrion is a Lansiter end of story His father is Tywin
Sophia Wilson I agree w you Tyrion & Tywin have much in common; Tyrion is definitely Lannister. They're extremely intelligent, great rulers, manipulate w their unnerving eyes, hate laughter, love whores, & love the game.
Jaime lacks all the above traits. (Which is good. He's not a manipulative megalomaniac who secretly had a TUNNEL DUG to his fave whores.)
Child of Persia Tyrion is a Lannister
20:55 Pretty sure you meant Rickard Stark Ned's father married his cousin not Ned himself. I'm not trying to nit pick, I just kinda freaked out thinking Ned and Cat were cousins and I'd totally missed it.
Oops! Yes, you're right that was a slip of the tongue, or the pen.
Westeros History Easily done. It just made me question everything I knew about ASOIAF haha. Great podcast as always.
I love your guys' channel, but holy shit please tell the guy reading the book passages to ease up on the whispery renaissance fair voice. Can't stand it.
So Tytos is like Mickial from the office
I'm one of those freaks that thinks Tywin might be sterile. I won't go into all my reasons but I will mention two. 1. I find it impossible to believe that a man like Tywin, a man that is extremely concerned with legacy and the Lannister name would wait 3 years from marriage to the birth of his "first born". I can't accept he wouldn't devote all his free time to producing an heir. I don't buy it at all. That and he lived in the tower of the hand for years that had a secret passage to a rub and tug up the road. Seriously though, does Tywin seem like a guy who would NOT be concerned with making an heir? 3 years is almost a full generation in Westeros. Thanks.
And men with erectile dysfunction usually hate laughter also. Having a faulty pecker can drain the fun out of things quickly and deeply.
I love Stratego!
a classic!
Great stuff, but the fostering issue is not exactly as you put it. Robert is being fostered in the Vale because his parents died tragically and at that time, Ned isn't the heir of anything, he's the second son of the Lord of Winterfell, so it's quite likely that he might end up at the Wall.
Hi there, thanks for the comment.
Robert's fostering at the Vale began before his parents died. We are not claiming Lord Rickard and Lord Steffon planned for their sons to be friends, we're using it as a familiar example of how powerful these young bonds can be.
Right! I keep forgetting that it was Stannis who saw his parents die at Storm's End, not Robert.
Gjergji311 The 3 Baratheon children witnessed their parents deaths...
LazyBlue Person Ok, short of me actually rereading the relevant material, was Robert fostered at the Vale before the death of his parents or not?
He was but he was definitely at Storms end to see his parents ship go down during the storm..
Ned Stark didn't Marry. his cousin, his father did.
First cousins is too close. Clearly the in breeding is a poor idea. As it lead to Joffery. I will never forgive grrm for it.
It's all about Lann the Clever and his hideous mating practices. thats it. the whole Lannister Story. Bred In, Bred Out. Where are all the Lannister bastards?
Stop talkin unnecessary stuff.. Ua draggin it too mch
We are now at 37 min and I can't help feeling this could have been condensed. Have you considered a script sir? You ramble as badly as I do. The upside is that I've discovered that if I stay up late and put on one of your histories I actually do the things I'm supposed to do during the day. So um, thanks for helping me clean my room I guess? My mom is sure to become a fan...
A few things. I do write scripts for every episode not including TV show coverage episodes and a few other exceptions. They are usually over 30 pages (it takes a while, ha!)
Condensing is not what our listeners/viewers want. They want immersion. There are literally a hundred or more GoT/ASOIAF content creators making condensed presentations. Many of them are awesome, but that's not our goal. Taste and preference aside, there are very few creators doing the long form deep dives like this. We realize it's not for everyone, but popularity is overrated.
I want to appeal to the very obsessed fan, because that's what I am :)
Ned stark didnt marry his first cousin
bloody gross, i never knew joanna was born from the brother of tywin's father... first cousisn, are you bloody kidding me? geh... bloody disgusting, and now jaime and cersei are doing even worse
2 hours for joanna 🌚????
1:56:30 I don't think necessary that "fishwife" story was a red herring. I think the fisherman's daughter was Ashara Dayne disguised and that was Jon in her belly. If you watch all of Order of the Green Hand's videos on it, it all comes together nicely. I think Jon really is a Dayne, not a Targ too. And he would be a real Stark.
A lot of theories are possible here, but the point regarding Jon is that not all the stories are true. He obviously can't be Lyanna's son AND Ashara's son so at least one of the stories is a red herring.
Heather you are not the only one who believe that Jon is not the son Rheagar but the direction were the show is going. There three women who believe to be Jon's Mother The Fisherman's Daughter who is separate character, Ashara Dayne, Lyanna Stark, Wyalla (Wet Nurse). I believe it also Ashara Dayne.
Boy, is he long winded and full of suppositions!
Making Tyrion a targaryian would be almost as stupid as the last few seasons of the show. I cannot believe that George will do something so fucking stupid. It also wouldn’t make sense with anything we’ve gotten in the books. What would make sense however, is cersie and Jamie and being the mad Kong’s children. That would go with Jamie’s dreams/visions and it would go hand and hand with the way the actions of the twins. I hope George doesn’t let the recent extreme popularity effect the way he thinks and writes. These ASOIAF books are the best entertainment we have right now considering the fact that George has more talent in his pinky finger than all the clowns working in Hollywood these days put together
Joanna returned to Kings landing 272 for Anniversary Trney Tyrion born she died 273 pretty gestationally suspicious Aerys is Dad all the foreshadowing he will ride Viserion will not work if he is not.
Wonder if my favourite tinfoil theory is discussed:
A+J=C&J
ned stark married his own cousin? 20:55
sigh, brain fart there. Meant to say Ned Stark's father and mother were first cousins.
Ah, right, no big deal. You guys do great work, thanks for helping distract me from reality for awhile 😊
So far im 30 minutes in and everything has just been: "what if Joanna was invovled" even though theres really zero evidence or reason to think this.
So far this is probably one of the worst episodes ive seen of History of Westeros.
Co p yeah me too.. This guy is just draggin draggin and draggin the same thing.. He cud hve said things in short.. Can't believe ppl r tuning into this 2 hr video and not gettin bored
I don't mind hearing the names of donors.I get it.I do.Give them a title too, they deserve it! But when I have to hear some bullshit fan fic that they give themselves,it does get annoying.Oooh! Al Saed went to Dragonstone and the Velaryons were there?!....He then went to Dragonstone!!! AMAZING! I can't wait to hear what this random name imagines doing next! Seriously,stop.
You're annoyed by end credits? Good lord, just skip them.