The Cuphead CONTROVERSY: Should Reviewers Git Gud? - DeadLock (ft. Mother’s Basement)
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ธ.ค. 2017
- VOTE: Journalists Need to GIT GUD! ► bit.ly/Git-Gud
VOTE: Writing Comes First! ► bit.ly/Writing4Ever
Watch Me Play Cuphead! ►► bit.ly/2AdRPHe
Cuphead broke the internet. When Cuphead gameplay of a journalist struggling to finish the tutorial hit the web, an age old debate was rekindled: Should gaming journalists have to be good at games to write about them? Or does writing come first and foremost? We'll be debating this very question, but in the end your answer will be the one that needs to be heard!
Also note that all sides of the debate are RANDOMLY decided, so the debater may be arguing for a side he or she doesn't agree with. We wanted to keep this as neutral and unbiased as possible. NO HATE!
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There is a big difference between git gud and beat the tutorial.
Amen to that.
My point exactly
kekke2000 A HUGE DIFERENCE
There is also a difference between looking for context and not caring too much about something that minor, and blowing something way out of proportion ignoring every context.
He did finish the tutorial for the record. Eventually. I'm kind of annoyed that everyone seems to assume that based on the clip they saw that immediately after clearing the first obstacle he just gave up out of sheer frustration.
Food reviewers are food experts, book reviewers have a good understanding of literature, game reviewers should be expected to finish a bloody tutorial.
Joaquin Pirotto what ?! Using logic and arguments to support your view? WITCHCRAFT I TELL YOU!! WITCHCRAFT
Normally professional reviewers are experts - fair enough. But what if they say "this restaurant serves the best beef in town", but you simply hate beef? Book reviewers says "this is the best fantasy since Tolkien" but you hate fantasy with all your guts? Isn't this up to you to find the reviewer you can relate to? The guy who's gonna say "I don't really like beef, but it's bearable here, good job on the chef's part " and that other guy "The fantasy here isn't groundbreaking, while the story hits all known cliches without taking a single risky step" and finally that last guy "The learning curve for this game is too steep, you might want to reconsider if you're just as confused as I was during the tutorial".
Daym Drops is not a food expert yet he reviews food. You need to have basic competence and understanding of the thing you're presenting as well as have a compelling argument.
Hey! whos to say a good reviewer needs a sense of taste, sometimes a newspaper or magazine doesn't have somebody with a sense of taste available so they have to make do, I can't believe these people who think you need to experience something to review it
food reviewers are often failed chefs.
book reviewers are often failed writers.
makes sense that game reviewers are failed gamers.
No, the debate should be "SHOULD GAMING JOURNALISTS BE ABLE TO FINISH THE TUTORIAL?"
And the answer should, be yes!
Yes especially if what you are supposed to do is right in front of you
I agree
Yes!
YES
All these years later.
The argument of "a games journalist should be able to understand and play any game they review" still holds up as the correct statement.
Imagine for a moment that an automobile journalist couldn't drive a car.
They would be fired.
The same rule should apply here.
Pft-
@@kitkat25195 cool, recent comment
@@bloopletank2491 cool, recent comment
@@geomatic696 cool, recent comment
@@fedethegreat88 cool, recent comment
I think matpat is correct, since we never asked for the reviewers to be pro, just that they could at least be able to understand simple mechanics
If it's that hard for a video game journalist to be competent at a game, then why have video game journalists in the first place
@@Doublemonk0506 I absolutly agree
@@Doublemonk0506 exactly
I think the same guy who couldn’t beat the tutorial is the same guy who said doom eternal was to hard and was also the guy who said “mass affect? More like mass defect”
I, whom had barely played platformers in my life before playin cuphead, had more than the 2 brain cells required to figure out that different buttons had different actions as cositas with such as. Jumping.I was 9 when I played cuphead for the first time and the whole rotúrela took me lik 2 mins. Game reviewers should b able to do that at the very least
Guys, seriously, here's the dealio:
Being good at writing is the most basic qualification to do any kind of journalism whatsoever. If you decide to specifically do GAMING journalism you need to have an additional skillset, otherwise there'd be no point in specialization at all.
I don't think anyone can honestly call this opinion unreasonable.
in that case a gaming journalist is the perfect job for me. i'm particularly good with the english language/ grammar, and i guess that i'm good at games.
at least i can finish the tutorial
I'm gonna pretend like you didn't just say "dealio".
@@dzagoproductions3450 Well, I was quoting, so I think I'm fine
15:10 At that point, Matpat should have won. I don’t care if this is deadlock, that should have been the final damage to set his debate hp to 0!
absolutely he always ends these with some cliffhanger
Mat should have won before that Jeff didn't seem to make good points he just explains why it's like that he left me thinking the industry is inherently bad when he was trying to do the opposite
@@alfieshepherd6522 Agreed. Nearly every one of Geoff's "points" was a flaw in the industry. If they don't hire enough writers to cover most basic requirements, because they want to make more money by paying less people, or they hire tons of inexperienced people, because they want to make more money by paying cheaper people, that's not a working system.
Matt clearly won this. You don't have to ace the game to give a solid review, just play enough of the game to give an accurate portrayal of it.
“GIT GUD” isn’t the right term for a “gamer” that can’t even pass the tutorial, more like GIT BRAIN
Git Average.
🤣
When I downloaded cuphead I completed the tutorial with no mistakes cause I had seen people play, and knew how it worked. I can’t believe it took him so long. Btw I’m replying to this so late, sorry 😂🤣
GIT an actual copy of a game and get GUD
Bruh this is a reference rom hollow knight when hornet says “ git Gud” and I love it
Nobody said a game reviewer has to be a pro at games, but you have to at least be able to make it past the tutorial.
And as a journalist, writing should be your main requirement. But as a GAME journalist, one should have BOTH gaming and writing skills.
He *did* make it past the tutorial mate.
multiple minutes to solve a very obvious tutorial problem is pretty bad. the thing has a block. you know you can't just jump over the pillar infront of you. you can read it telling you how to dash in the air. I'd say most people should be able to put 1 and 1 together and figure "If I jump from ontop of something, I can jump higher. and by using the dash, i can move further"
As far as I have seen the only people that disagree with this are the games journos themselves. They're also the only ones that seem to claim the argument is that they should be top-of-the-league experts in all the games.
I'm not a journalist myself. However, I'm an English major who comes from a family of (traditional) journalists, and I dabbled in the field myself (that field being traditional journalism, NOT games journalism) with several internships. The majority if flat out wrong about this one. This isn't even a subjective thing, because it's true across journalism as a whole; rarely if ever do journalists write about a topic they're experts on... or even have a passing knowledge of.
How it works in journalism as a whole is irrelevant. If it was just some random journo at the NYT for example, it wouldn't be a problem. The problem is games journalists are specialised into the field of gaming and the gaming industry. An analogy might be a blind arts journalist writing about paintings. He could have an in depth knowledge of the history of art but he'd still be missing something fundamental about the medium he has chose to base his career around.
As "genre" based these reports are, it's not that hard to press two buttons in quick succession.
The dash is not that flipping hard
Exactly
The kid did it in seconds
@@dkal7112 a five year old kid
@@ProfAzimov there's also a 4 year old kid who can't read but plays alot of hollow knight who finished the whole tutorial while Dean was still at using the ultimate of the red guy.
Mat is absolutely right here! As a gamer and consumer, I care more about seeing the playthroughs of actual gamers and actual people than reading a review of a writer who may or may not have even played the game to begin with. As a result, game journalists barely even get any time out of me, but TH-cam and Twich get hours of my time each week not to mention follows and subs.
Basically, you don't have to be the very best like no one ever was, but you should be able to defeat A LEVEL 5 MAGIKARP, GODDAMMIT!
sonicsaiyan07 or a paralyzed Tailow
Yuh flail magikarp
Sums it up pretty well xD
Wise words.
sonicsaiyan07 GOD DAMNIT YES EXCACTLY that shouldn't even have been a deadlock market should've just won
I don't know that the reviewers have to become experts in every genre, but they definitely need to "git average". Image if there was a narcoleptic film critic that fell asleep after 15 minutes of every movie they watched? No matter how good their writing, they're simply not going to be qualified when it comes to reviewing and scoring that film. This is essentially where some of these game journalists are. Their lack of skills is limiting their ability to be exposed to the thing that they are writing about. Sure, there are time constraints to writing. but if a reviewer who puts 16 hours into a game before writing about it isn't where the average player is 16 hours in, they are simply insufficiently informed about the content of the thing about which they are writing to provide an adequate level of review.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
I’d like to see the 15 minute reviews. ^_^ XD sounds funny.
yes you are right nobody wants to see any review that they cant pass the tutorial or as you said would anybody like to see less than a quarter of a film review
I couldn't agree more.
Another option is to hire someone who is just good at playing, and another who is good at writing. The other guys looks over the shoulder of the first, and writes what he plays, and bases his "review" regarding technical nuances, like difficulty, controls etc. on his opinions. Disregarding the "in perfect world blah blah" this certainly would not be beyond a reasonable arrangement.
Ah yes, my favourite book.
*Five at Freddy's: The Eyes*
4:59
Yes, By Cawthon.
ah yes.
quality right there.
now i wanna see a version of the silver eyes with half the words missing.
that would be QUITE interesting to read.
@@XIVs_abyss I'm on it
@@skrrtdotcom9120 nice.
@@skrrtdotcom9120 we will watch your career with great interest
8:35 Dean said himself that he'd been playing platformers for basically the entirety of his game journalism career (21 years at the time he wrote about cuphead)
That doesn't change the fact that he should have been able to complete a dash jump
@@nicolewhite3157 yes, that is the point I am trying to make; he said that he'd been playing platformers for over 20 years, and STILL didn't have the know-how to complete the TUTORIAL
@@Chai_Rhythm in that case Mat wins
I love Geoff but Matpat is right. Nobody benefits from rushed deadlines and inexperienced reviewers. The man took a minute and a half to properly perform a 2 button sequence. A PUZZLE game requires more from the player than that.
Tyto 31 my mind filled in the "tch" for me so I didint knowtis
It's just quantity versus quality, quality always win in a free market (of services in raising demand, for example!). Therefore you're right ;)
Only comment I've found spelling his first name correctly. The misunderstanding is understandable though.
chainer8686 Well I am a faithful subscriber of course. ;)
A lot of puzzle games dont require you to perform a 2 button sequence like that. It sucks, but honestly I dont know if they make enough money to be able to afford either skipping a lot of games or hiring a bunch more people to review them.
I’m both a writer and a gamer and proficient in RPGs, Shooters, Platformers, and most games in general. I do not claim that I can beat every game, nor most games, but I agree with MatPat. Game journalists need to be proficient in a multitude of genres, just like can be and should be profienced in a multitude of different writing styles as a writer.
Auto correct sucks.... and I’m too lazy to correct my misspellings tonight. I’m not a spelling or grammar crazy person....
Foxfire0002 don't worry, I've had the same thing happen with me.
Thank you
If a journalist only plays JRPG's and adventure games, they just shouldn't do a review on an FPS. Matt didn't use the right example about an author not knowing half the words...
It's more like asking a plant expert to review a bridge design.
I have the same thought
As a trained writer, I'm with Matt every time.
Even TF2 vs Overwatch
As a writer in training, I agree with you.
“All publicity is good publicity.”
Mass broadcast review site: “This game sucks.”
Yeah. Not all publicity is good publicity. Also, if you can’t beat a tutorial when the instructions are right on the screen, you don’t deserve your cushy job. If your job requires you to give a good look of the content to the viewers, you should be able to get to the goddamn content in the first place.
This literally isn't a debate. A guy that reviews games for a living should be able to complete a tutorial quicker than a 5 year old period
Scott Bishop they don't have to play the game in the first place.
Tyler Hanson look into the story, the man who was tasked with reviewing this game was sent to play this game because he was the only one from his company in the area. He typically writes reports on the more economic side of the industry.
I agree, if you're a writing journalist then you need to be above average at video games so you can give the best score possible in your judgement. Towards the end of the video it was apparent MatPat is right.
I had to watch this debate 3 times and I concluded that neither side is really wrong. A Gaming Journalist needs to be a skilled writer and an experienced gamer, do they have to be the best? No... but they should at least proficent in 2/3's of the genres out there... I'm not really sure why either side is arguing for 1 of the other because both are essential. Both make valid points... And they kind of agree on the point that TH-camrs and Gamers tend to do more for gaming than Journalists... Maybe Gaming Journalists should pair up with experienced gamers and talk/interview about the game together and then write about it.
In my opinion though Journalism as a whole is dying because it just feels like every media source is either bought out by publishers or have some sort of agenda outside of serving their consumer base.
It's like having a debate between flat earthers and everybody else. There is no equivalence,there is just deluded people and reality.
At the very least, we can all agree that a gaming journalist should be decent enough to get through the tutorial in a reasonable time.
They should actually be capable of playing games at all
Most of them are people who barely have touched a controller
The worst tutorial of all time, is Driver for the PSone. You can't get past that, your not a gamer... In the driving genre.
true
Or at the very least be better than a kindergartner
Who else watching this after TH-cam polls got removed so can't see the results
Asking if game journalists should know how to play games well, is the same as asking if firefighters should know how to extinguish a fire
MatPat wins. If a reviewer doesn't know how to play a game, they won't be able to properly inform the reader about the content
Same thing I was thinking as soon as i saw the title
Jslay they can inform a similar reader though on how they might fair in the game.
@@EatsUsedTP you think a less than five year old child is going to read the review ?
I know I'm necroposting no need to remind me
@@abhrajitdhar4628 this is from years ago, but I am basically incompetent in platforming games because I don't play them much. I can't beat any Mario game and I usually cant clear a level for that matter. So for me a watching a reviewer struggle with it would remind me that is the experience I would have if I had the game so it isnt worth buying.
@@EatsUsedTP Well I hope you don't have a driver's license, because that's all the co-ordination you need to be able to jump while pushing right and push dash.
Or turn on your blinker, check your mirror, while keeping your foot lightly on the gas in preparation to turn the wheel and merge right.
Nobody said he had to be pro level he just had to be competent
he wasnt competent
@@potatosalad4025 Ghostly Noodle was not saying Dean Takahashi was competent.
Edit: Spelling
For real
he had to be good
why can you reply on a reply
The Actual Interview to be a video game Journalist: “Have You ever touched a video game before?” Interviewee: “No” Journalist: “Perfect welcome aboard”
4:13 "are they there to see you S rank all of the bosses , or are they drawn in by your winning personality?"
if that was me i'd say it's obviously the first one, because my personality in described in 1 word: none
Your job is literally playing videogames and telling people if they are good. Im not saying you've gotta be amazing, but my God, if you're as bad as that dude at the tutorial, you are probably in the wrong industry.
...and considering the poll right now, looks like ~80% of you agree with me lol. This is why my channel isn't game reviews. I suck at games.
Biimiiki I agree
I think journalists should be able to play the game for about 30 minutes to see if they can play it, if so boom you've got a 30 minute head start if not, your boss has lost 5 dollars. OR get your whole team to watch the 30 tester, and the appropriate person can say "I can beat this, I'll do the review"
Yes, absolutely. I was recently one of only seven people left on Earth with a subscription to a gaming magazine and have cancelled it because I simply can not trust if game reviewers who I can't see play have the aptitude to properly appraise games. I had the sub because I can not buy even a fraction of all games released even when discounted, I must be able to focus on those I can reasonably expect to enjoy. Game journalists, who think mere talent at writing(which in their case is often questionable) or social/pop-culture critique enables them to give paid-for recommendations, can not actually do that. I don't listen to anyone I can't see play the game any more.
seriously im not for them being gods at video games but atleast have some level, some benchmark for what an average gamers skill looks like.
No one is asking for journalists to be able to speedrun games on their first try. What we want is for a minimum skill level. Not perfect, but not mediocre for christ sake.
Yeah! Because writing about the business side of gaming clearly requires Cuphead skill. How can we expect somebody to collect and compile and relate information unless they have some minimum level of Metal Slug skill.
And we want them to have some basic knowledge about the genre they are reviewing. Don't criticize an RPG just for having the elements THAT MAKE it an RPG. Even someone who isn't a fan of RPG's should be able to do that objectively.
that was one of the first arguments that was debunked, what you are saying does not apply to reviews.
Seneth Somed I'm an accountant, gamer and a writting aficionado.
Most people are average at everything and specialized at something, but Beat has been a game's journalist for over 20 years, and yet his skills were way below average. The game tells you what to do in plain text. It makes me wonder how he operates a microwave.
if they are strictly doing the business side then they can do that. But if they are going to review a game, then they need to at least have the ability to be able to properly review it. Would you trust your uncle john , who can barely keep a car running for a year, to inspect your car or an actual mechanic?
walks into a wall for a minute straight
Geoff: yes. good.
So basically "insted of representing some games right they will misrepresent nearly all games.
A reviewer should not have to MASTER a game to write a casual article about it, but if they know a game so little that they can't even get through the tutorial then they just need to spend more time playing the game. A reviewer should understand what it would take for an average player to become skilled at the game, regardless weather he/she/they are actually good at it themselves.
A reviewer who writes an article on a game they don't completely understand from a gamer's point of view is like an athlete competing in a bike race on foot.
Janux Music yeah, and do we forget it took Jean 90 GODDAMN SECONDS TO DO A DASH JUMP? I DON'T THINK THIS IS A DEBATE.
That journalist only played because he reviews a different genre and his coworkers thought it would be funny to show him playing a platformer which he was notorious at being bad at.
I agree with Matt. I mean, no, they don't need to be perfect.... But at least don't be an absolute potato at such a simply controlled game!
WHAT’S WRONG WITH POTATOS??!?? (But yeah I agree)
There were so many arguments about time and efficiency but if it takes forever to do even a simple task in game you arent saving any time. I totally agree with Matt
Comment Section Preacher no wrong potato ur thinking about they need to be a county potato
I don't know! what will they do?
If some body asked them to play dmc5 and get S rank doing different combos using Dante!
They don’t have to be good, just able to understand BASIC video game mechanics.
Geoff: Focusing on the corperate aspects of the job. Looking at it with the check in mind and nothing else. He is saying that as long as you can write something that is about a game, weather its actually informative to the players or true doesnt matter. I get the feeling hes okay with journalists taking money from game companies to write favorable reviews. Cause techniacally its a review of a game.
Matt: If you're going to be a gaming journalist that is true to the craft then you need to meet two requirements. The first being you like video games and playing them is a passion to you. 2. Afrer completing the game you are able to write and/or make a video where you give your honest opinions and feelings on the content you just experienced.
I agree wholeheartedly with Matt. Gamers are really not into reviewers who are only in it for the money and don't actually have a passion for gaming. As soon as you are found out to be a fraud you will be shunned by the gaming community and probably wont last much longer. Besides, even if you arent caught red handed (like not being able to play cupheads tutorial or repeatedly praising games that clearly dont deserve it...things like that) and all you do is write mediocre/passable content, gamers arent going to be interested in your reviews anyway. Why dont you try your hand in politics? Pleanty of room to write for conservatives or liberals and its much less complicated.
I think a GAME journalist should be able play and understand enough of the game to write a honest review ABOUT the ACTUAL GAME.
We must listen to the meme man!
did he actually make the article about the game
@@Luke-sr1ev yeah, as I recall he bashed it as nearly unplayable. I would argue that this is an editorial issue. As pointed out the required bar is not high but this example is below it. The article should never have been approved.
MatPat's comments are the exact reason I stopped paying for Game Informer and gave up on reading Game Reviews entirely. Any game I care about, I'll play it or watch a Let's Play and decide for myself. Can't be bothered with people who are paid to give a certain opinion.
Eskimolz I'm basically the same, but I also found that in the late 90s to early 2000s the reviews simply weren't accurate. It didn't seem to matter the genre or review rating (good or bad), some of the things talked about as pros and cons just weren't a thing. I think its because of this git gud problem - the writers weren't meeting basic gamer levels of ability, regardless of genre, and so weren't realizing when "bugs" or "features" were just them not getting the mechanics, or when a "new mechanic" had been around for years without a AAA release.
And now with TH-cam and Twitch, I just don't know why anyone wouldn't go look up actual gameplay of a game they're interested in instead of reading a review. I've bought games off of watching lets plays multiple times, but I haven't bought a game based on a written review since Jade Empire for the original Xbox.
IGNs review of Fire Emblem Echoes basically did the same for me. Look it up and look how many dislikes it has lol. The reviewer had no idea what she was talking about and the review was terrible because of it. I think she even got the name of the game wrong once. .. yup, I'll just watch lets plays from now on.
Indeed more and more people are making their game purchasing choices based LPs and the like. Information is priority and you can't get much better than watching people you have seen play games before and know their likes and dislikes play the game.
I’d love to see a book called “The Freddys:The Eyes”
Y s m n
I agree with Mat in this situation, because I have seen too many game journalists rate Cuphead a 3/10 because the can't beat Root Pack on their first try.
Anyone defending takahashi should atleast know that, he gave mass effect a bad review because, he didnt "know" he could level up, and he wrote that "the bosses are impossible to beat, bad game" it isnt that game journalists are only bad at games, it is that some, seem to not understand the basics of games, and of an specific game genre, and this is just basic research, just freaking google: "basic mechanics of..." and the problem is gone.
bruno fuentes Nah, Takahashi just sucks at gaming. I mean, a five year old bettur than u.
bruno fuentes yes thank you! read my comment it ligit pretty much says the exact same thing
That's actually something I think this video really didn't cover well. That guy is an exception to the rule of the work behind reviews. Like, he's that bad and shouldn't be in the field without better experience. It's like putting someone out there to review a car, but has little to no experience driving one.
it's like a blind guy that doesn't know he's blind reviewing a painting and saying "this sucks, it doesn't have colors".
My vote was Git Good, but I think it would be more accurate to say "Get relatively decent". No, I don't think a game journalist should be a master at all games, but I am sure the Master Street Fighter Player could still relatively decently play Cuphead. Don't git good, just git adequate.
JP Provins
Get competent.
Of course Mathew.
Any assistance in doing so would be greatly appreciated.
If possible, please let me know what I had stated which was incompetent so that I may rectify this unfortunate situation post haste.
Get adequate enough to pass the tutorial before a literal toddler
That is what I stated. "My vote was Git Good, but I think it would be more accurate to say "Get relatively decent"."
I think that was mostly MatPat's intention for his point.
"if you can see this, i'm impressed"
Alright Closed Captions.
All we ask of game journalists is to have
A) basic reading skills
B) problem solving abilities
C) understand video game mechanics
I swear, if another person says "The Dark Souls of _______" I'll dreamnail your mind out.
Ayyyyyy fellow Hollow Knight fan
Dark souls is the Dark souls of Souls-likes.
@@chaoticsilver8442 Honestlу Demon's Souls is the dark souls of the soul series
@@akaliislifeakaliislove5968 perhaps...
What if it's the next dark souls game that is harder tenfold than any other dark souls game? It would be the dark souls of dark souls
Yes, they absolutely need to git gud. I don't expect all games journalists to be god-like pros, but struggling to finish a tutorial is pathetic and atrocious. It's analogous to, say, a pre-pubescent child "reviewing" sex. Any opinions or accounts simply cannot be trustworthy as the party in question lacks the tools, experience, and vocabulary to be reputable. There is a bare minimum of proficiency required for a source to be trusted
That said, if you know that both they and you are bad at stuff like that, they can still be a good indicator as to whether it's worth you personally getting it or not lol
...But yeah, it's probably better that they are better at the game, but can advise people worse than them that they might not like it.
the problem is just, that the guy said the game was at fault and didn't teach it's systems well enough for newcommers to understand... which was than disproven by a 5-year old. I like the way TotalBiscuit does this. He states upfront that he isn't that good in a particular genre and at least tries to convey, whether something in the game was his own fault or the game designer's
what's sex? I mean I am only 8 but I should know these things by now
Mat wins because if a game writer doesn't enjoy that genre, they might give it a bad review and make millions of people not buy a game they were exited for and create a loss for everybody except the journalist's company.
I'm not so sure if the completion of a simple tutorial is a requirement of being a journalist, but rather a requirement of *anyone who can understand simple instructions and push a button.*
nobody wants a pro player, but we DEMAND someone who can master the MOST BASIC skills to progress in the game.
I dont care if you can 100% the game, but you'd better be able to complete the main plot at least once, or else you ARE NOT QUALIFIED to write a review on the subject
Khelvera great point!
Or be able to complete the tutorial with the same level of competence as a FIVE YEAR OLD.
Khelvera some games you don't need to beat to understand what's good about it. Take a look at elder scrolls games, or fallout games. Those games don't need to be completed for you to find out about the good stuff.
I agree. Most of the long winded RPGs (And there are a lot of them) don't need to be beaten in order to give a good review of the game. Hell sometimes it's even impossible if the company who hands out review copies doesn't give it to them with enough time to beat it. A reviewer should be capable of getting through at least the opening act of a game and touch the second act before reviewing it.
Yea I let people off on campain completion since some stories can be really hard to power through.
Being able to use the basic controls explained in the tutorial is a requirement to be qualified to make a judgment. Wouldn't take a CoD reviewer's oppinion seriously if he couldn't figure out how to fire the gun right?
Two years later and still a relevent topic.
@THAT1BANANA We're a good few months off it being 3 years. It is still relevant, though. The fact that the Taki Inoue of gaming is reviewing games for a living says a lot about the standards we set
it really shouldnt be relevant though i mean if the game is designed to be challenging and it takes you forever to beat the tutporial the game clearly isnt for you
And today to sadly
Yup still relevant. Game journalist just don't change.
3*
Bro if a food critic can’t make scrambled eggs without burning them severely, would you argue in their favor because they’re good at writing?
But food critics critique the experience of eating and the skill of chefs, doesn’t mean they can cook, they professionally eat, not cook. This isn’t related to the debate, they aren’t saying he can’t make a game so he can’t review, Matt is saying he can’t play the game so he shouldn’t review it. This isn’t really the same argument.
Would you trust a person who hasn't played the game about how to beat a boss or someone who actually beat it
Why is this a question? Yes journalists should have enough skill to be able to play games well enough to get through them
HornHero its like asking someone who has never eaten coconuts to write a review about how coconuts taste. Two words : not accurate
It presents both sides of the argument not just a one sided debate that basically says yes this how it is and no other way. It present both sides that lets you decide which side your on. Even though the answer is obvious that they need to have experience but then again people thought the Earth was flat for the longest time, so...
TheTwistedRebellion ok, that’s where I take issue; the only reason people thought the earth was flat was because they had no way of knowing otherwise
HornHero No not really. People who believed that the earth wasn't flat wasn't allowed to question the chruches claims nor to do the research to see if it was true that was being told to them which is why the person who did showed us that Earth wasn't flat but round got thrown into chains and rejected the his research for many years.
If you can't even finish a tutorial then why did you even apply for a job that your task is to play games.
he didn't apply to review games though he's a tech journalist
he mostly made articles about the hardware not software
Once again, the task is not only to play games. It's to WRITE about games in an efficient and timely manner.
Just because he picked it up slowly doesn't mean that he was unable to finish it. Yeah, he did a lot worse than most players but he did eventually get through the tutorial.
Noel Rodney How can you write about something efficiently if it takes a long time to be able to get an understanding of the game otherwise you are writing about what you don’t know
Noel Rodney Sure but how can I trust someone to write about a game if they take a couple of minutes to understand the floating text that says 'press y to dash?
If they write about cuphead how can I believe anything they say knowing they can't even finish the tutorial in a reasonable amount of time?
I might just become a game journalist out of spite.
I know I am late but it's actually very informative for someone to write about a game in a genre they are new to as we get a new player perspective which is great for those that are new to the genre.
HE COULDN'T DO A DASH-JUMP
Marley GEEZ I
KNOW!!!
Marley dood... he just thought you do dash jumps on the ground... why are people soo mean on him? His perspective was just limited.. to me.. it's an honest mistake
ITS INSANE
That's just sad even my 3 yr old brother can do that
After that, no other argument should be considered... I also have to say, if you're a specialist in a "serious job" in a "serious magazine" of any area of knowledge to make a "serious review" or discuss a topic, you need to have far more than basic skills... (and the quotes "" are there to represent if you're not serious after all in any of the quotes, everything else is bullshit).
I don't expect reviewers to be amazing at games, I expect them to at least be competent.
Hektic H agreed. That one journalist who took a minute to pass that tutorial is just.............. bad...
I'd rather play with people who are not so proish, even I'm not too pro at games. At least you have said something right about it
We haven't had any of these for THREE YEARS
Kinda wished they continued with this series
Well I don't think that journalists need to be experts at a game. They just need to be at least competent.
That’s a fair point
scarysob no because I myself am not competent in platformers, so I would prefer to see someone whose experience more closely resembles the one I would recieve
@@EatsUsedTP So you would prefer to see someone to take 40 minutes completing a tutorial, instead of actually completing the game?
Joe with the flow if you’re not competent, you need to genuinely learn more skills. Reviews should be written by someone decent at games, or the genre of game they write about, and you’d have to deal with it for the majority of gamers.
FINALLY SOMEONE WHO AGREES WITH ME! THANK YOU
I will say it shouldn't take you 30 minutes to beat the tutorial...
especially if the tutorial doesn't have anything AT ALL besides basic movement
Especially if the instructions are on friggin screen and u just have to follow it...
A pigeon, with no instructions, is able to figure out how to solve a puzzle faster than this game journalist with the instructions in front of him was able to perform a simple freaking jump + dash.
Microtardz exactly not only i think he needs to git gud but also need his eyes check or learn how to read.. i knw that im getting rude here but man... gaming is like in its teenage years and these writers are like toddlers...
what can i say the tutorial is one of the hardest levels,
Not being able to play a game properly and then writing about them is like being a book reviewer and at the same being illiterate.
Sweet intro dude! this is the first deadlock episode I’ve seen okay?
"All publicity is good publicity" I think PewDiePie would disagree
Ben Fletcher I think EA would disagree also after the thrashing they've been getting.
Yeah, it's natural. Everyone has their own haters.
and yet hes still constantly gaining subscribers.
tbh i forgot about him until that video so i guess it is good publicity
LOL
me personally I would rather have one review that takes a month to make and is actually a good review rather than 10 reviews that take one week to make. Quality over quantity
I agree
whenever there's a game and i see the reviews, theres always a review made by one player whos beat the game, or has spent lots of time playing it, and they leave a lengthy, well-thought out review. Those are the ones I read, and the ones where i take their word for it, rather than a short list of pros and cons with the controls, story, and gameplay, that I also see.
@@eclecticsoffy Illogical statement. Than you should be on the streets 24/7, supporting anticapitalist movements. Quantity will always be over quality in our current day and age and system. That's the nature of the world. Focus on social responsibility and quality too much? Then the market devours you and your competition, who cares more about quantity and efficiency and less about social responsibility and quality will take over.
Please make more Deadlocks. This is a great series
I know you're busy with the new channel (enjoy food theory), but any plans to do any more Deadlock episodes? (VR vs traditional gaming)
There is literally no excuse that a person writing a review for a game should take that long to do something like that in a tutorial, not when the instructions are literally written on screen. Just... no. Throw out the article, toss it to someone more competent. I am not asking for a pro. Just someone who can understand the very minimum I expect from any 'gamer'.
Simply Mad jupp. A writer should be able to read after all. 🦊
No need to be good, just read the tutorial. 😣
SetTheFallen he might not speak/read English ? That's the only explanation I can think of
The Porcupine But there are PICTURES of the Buttons on the screen so you can’t even argue that
The Porcupine that is the worst arguement ive ever heard plus the buttons are literally on the screen
Well it doesn't take long time if you GIT GUD. A 7 year old did a task better than a reviewer by so much. That is a lot of time wasted because he wasn't good. It is only wasting time when you're bad at being good at something in that short time. We aren't asking for high scores, just for the people telling us if the game is worth it or not can actualy be able to tell WHY it is worth it or not. If they say the difficulty is too hard when they litteraly failed on a tutorial a kid could do a whole minute faster, then how is that trustworthy?
Being at least decent at games is very important imo to review a game. A player who can play a game well, is excited about it and can explain why, will always be much better than someone who can't play well but can write about how much the controls and level design sucks.
Also the whole argument of them not having much time to play the game they review seems kinda counterproductive when it takes them 20 minutes to do something even an average player could do in 5.
Geoff has a dusty trim
what i think they should do is have the journalist have a semi game play were if they are having trouble with a section they can have an player with experience so they can see the story and other key things while also seeing the game play that might need lots of skill
How does it take a minute and a half to do one jump when it is literally telling you the controls
I don't even think the Cuphead tutorial is a test of skill, it's a test of common sense. My Mom is 63 and she got it in about 20 seconds. (Of course I'm conveniently leaving out the part where she and I used to play Contra 2-player and beat it multiple times without the 30 lives code, oops)
Agreed
cool mum
The Game Theorists Official big hacker
The Game Theorists Official me me big scheme
NintendoCapriSun yeah but his job is to write about video games for a living but to write about it you have to play more than the tutorial so it is still impressive how s *CHRISTIAN CENSOR* t he did when the instructions where there
You don't need to be a pro, but at least be able to beat the tutorial. Again that 5 year old did that jump in 7 seconds.
To be fair, Dean _did_ beat the kid in overall time
Basically you need to be able to properly experience the game in order to properly talk about it and review it.
Girl-In-The-Radiator
I haven't read the article the guy wrote but I bet you anything there's a line written similar to this
*CUPHEAD*
THE TUTORIAL IS BASICALLY IMPOSSIBLE
I know, this video should be Mat replaying the video every time Geoff says anything.
Well, to be frank, Dean's review said the game WAS hard, but acknowledged he was also bad and that the game play was shameful at best. But he praised the game for bringing back a "lost art" of harder games, and his only complaint was at the end where he jumped into a bush and died (saying that it was unfair that the scenery is hard to distinguish from enemies/hazards, not to different from some people's complaints with Ori and the Blind Forest.)
Because, let us all be honest: Cuphead IS a hard game. While Dean's game play was shameful, as he himself put it IN his review, he could still see what makes the game enjoyable and praised the game for it.
I miss this so much
Matt bring this series back I love it ❤️
They reviewers don't have to be Pro players, but they have to at least be ok. For example some review sights review Destiny's raids and most of them complain about challenge and how mechanics are demanding, but all it takes is time and a little skill and every raid is a piece of cake. Yeah King's fall is brutal but that was on purpose. Bungie said that they wanted the raid to kick you where it hurts the most and if your teams communication wasn't on point then it was time to improve.
Grant Hightower I agree. At least be decent enough to give a fair review instead of "This is too hard, so it's bad"
I agree with you. I don't think that they have to be pros either, but I have had a problem with how easy a lot of games are now. Games SHOULD be challenging. Not something you can beat in a week or two.
I think that if you're going to be a game reviewer, you need to be a jack of all trades to do your job well. You can be better at some games then others, but if your job requires you to cover multiple genres or styles of games you need to at least be able to grasp the basics.
Grievousish You can always just review racing games.. they're all kinda similar, making you at least good at them all
Everyone has their strong points, but if you’re good at strategy games, you need to be able to pick up Megaman or Doom as easily as Fire Emblem. You wont be as good, but you need to learn and improve fast
Grievousish I totally agree
you worded it so much better than me :)
Can we please bring back Deadlock?
Can we get a second series of this?
Geoff’s argument is basically like saying a new station sending the weatherman to cover a football game. Gaming websites need to have specific writers or teams of writers for certain games just like we have specific talents for different aspects of news
He's more just making excuses for why reviewers are bad then why they don't need to be good.
Worse, you don't send a football expert to cover a handball game ? Or a swimming competition ? Bad excuses
Geoff also makes it out like people only understand one type of game.
matpat actually had more health than mothers basement. I counted the pixels.
EPIC BOSS FIGHT!
john beynon a person that counts pixels is a gaming legend or the perfect theorist XD
john beynon I agree
Well, that's because I am a theorist FamousGlory. I'm not exactly a gaming legend though.
john beynon ok I'm sold
It's a shame this wasn't continued. I wonder who won the vote.
whoever was doing the editing on this is a Psych fan and I love it
Honestly Matpat won this, I'd rather have an accurate review than multiple reviews of a lower quality.
Jake Williams agreed
Don'y forget the 6/10 review of Alien Isolation, complaining it was too hard and too slow LOL
Your personal opinion does not determine who won the debate.
Tbh all Jeff proved was that game journalists are inherently deceitful. I thought he was meant to be defending game journalists, not explaining why they are flawed.
+Mordercai Near
There comment about how the Alien's AI was "too smart" made me laugh. They are so used to dumb AI from games like Call of Duty and Destiny, that when an actually smart one comes along, they think it is a bad thing.
2:07
*"OR LIKE THE COMMENTS ON YOUR UNDERTALE VIDEO"*
THAT actually made me scream at how good that roast was
I just died of laughter.
He is taking the low hanging fruit
*Like the comments of your undertale video*
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
You can tell even the writers for them could’t think of ways to take health off mat pat as the first 2 bits of damage are personal just so the health is equal
@@daandebeer283 low hanging fruit is the easiest way to insult someone.
He chose not to go after the high hanging fruit.
Weakling.
Lol it's really funny watching MatPat vs Jeff with one being like super passionate debater vs coldheaded argument
My five year is obsessed with cuphead and does an amazing job playing it. He's still learning multitasking with shooting AND dodging, but he figured out some of the controls faster than I did, even. That guy taking that long to do a dash jump when it literally spells out what to do on the screen is just embarrassing.
I truly believe game journalists need to be at LEAST above average in their play and knowledge of the game.
It’s a freaking tutorial, MatPat wins(ITS A DASH JUMP THAT A 3 YEAR OLD CAN DO)
Fun fact a 5 year old beat a game journalist in the tutorial jump dash but the 5 year old had to do the longer,fully released tutorial while the game journalist took like 3 years to do it
Preach, brother, preach.
1 MINUTE AND 30 SECONDS TO DO A TUTORIAL JUMP. 5 YEAR OLD DOES IT IN 7 SECONDS. GIT GUD.
That second wall in tutorial- Soo hard to pass
Definitely, you can't call yourself a gaming expert if you can't even beat a tutorial
They don't need to be experts, just to be game literate and understand what you're playing
WHEN IS THE NEXT DEADLOCK COMING?!
I just rewatched the video and I just realised that a main point for the Git writing side was the time taken to finish a game. You dont have to finish a game to get a sense of it, for example you dont have to finish cup head to understand the quality
Simple fix:
Have a journalist pair up with an experience gamer so that they can experience the game and write about it professionally, sure, the experience will be second-hand but it's better then getting the "it's too hard" review again.
And while you can argue that the reviewer can just go online to watch videos instead, I would recommend the duo system as that allows the reviewer and gamer to bounce opinions off of one another to create the most accurate articles
or cutout the "reviewer" and just have that gamer on staff be the reviewer, you're adding an extra person unnecessarily for something that highschool english classes and an editor can fix.
Nice idea but then they have to pay them both and they dont gone do that
Agreed
Jonah Thoennes good solution!
Not necessarily. They already get review copies of the games. Have the reviewer pair up with a TH-camr, give them the review copy to play, on condition that they have to play it with the journo and discuss how they felt it played. The TH-camr then has plenty of content to stick on their channel, and the journo can put out the news piece, and both get extra advertising. If the TH-camr is good, they may even get more money out of it than the journo.
When I say GIT GUD, I don't mean master it. I just mean at least have proficiency in the game where you aren't stuck in the tutorial lol
I don't like how Mother's Basement was like "Writer OR Gamer" because you can be a halfway decent gamer and an amazing writer. Right?
I agree with this. The writing part is just as important as being good at the game.
But, I'm both a gamer and writer.
100% agree with you
most people already do this with their careers. they are good at their job and good at playing games. if a non writer can do both, then why cant a writer/gamer?
And it's not like their writing on the reviews are extremely profound. So his whole point on writer quality over their ability to play falls flat as well.
No, not even git gud, just be able to press a single button, because that’s literally the only thing he had to do
When is the next Deadlock coming? I love this series!! Pls bring it back!!
In one of their live streams they said it isn't coming back because the debates got really hostile in the comment section. So I assume there were personal attacks and death threats and other problems with debaters so they scraped it.
A shame though. To bad people can't be civilized about their opinions now and days.
@@SkyCardis I agree with you. I loved this series. People cant understand that this is just for fun.
should a game journalist need to be an expert? no, but they need to be competent enough to evaluate product they are paid to evaluate without making their failing a negative to the game in question
horrorkesh perfectly explains what I was thinking 👌🏾
The reviewers need to disclose their proficiency. For example: how well can an amateur, casual or hardcore gamer play the game.
A million times, this. No offense people in the industry, but playing most games at a competent level and the ability to write aren't eactly the most difficult skill sets.
That is why I go to TH-cam for my reviews. So the reviewer reviews genres they LIKE instead of whatever is thrown out, it just makes it more reliable
Got good
this is so intense its like watching live from courtroom
The concept that "Its okay if the writer is bad because they at least did some work." is probably the dumbest angle I've ever heard. There's no other industry that would even try that sort of take.