Was Túrin actually cursed by Morgoth?
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This video was originally published on 1/24/2022 and has been reuploaded
The story of the Children of Hurin centers on a alleged 'curse' that Morgoth supposedly places on Turin and his family. But curses are tricky things, and Turin seems more than capable of screwing up his life without Morgoth's help. This of course does not imply that Morgoth is wholly innocent....
Timestamps:
Intro/Background - 0:00
Hurin and Morgoth - 4:01
What Morgoth Can Do - 6:22
What Morgoth Can't Do - 11:44
What Morgoth Can... Maybe Do? - 15:31
Aftermath - 20:09
Disclaimer: Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for fair use purposes such as criticism, commentary, parody, news, reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. All works used in this video (images, audio, etc.) belong to their respective authors.
All effort has been made to accurately credit artists; please contact me for questions or concerns!
*Art Credits*
Thumbnail Art:
"Túrin Turambar" by Un Nam (Tolrone) www.artstation.com/ssen
"Glaurung's Creation" by Rui Gonçalves www.artstation.com/artwork/48...
A full list of artworks, including links, is found here: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
Artists (in order of work’s first appearance):
1 - Klaus Wittmann www.artstation.com/klauswittmann
2 - H.P. Gaskins / hpgaskins
3 - Peter Xavier Price www.deviantart.com/peet
4 - Even Amundsen www.artstation.com/mischeviou...
5 - Pete Amachree www.artstation.com/summerpudding
6 - Gary Crosby www.artstation.com/garycrosby
7 - Un Nam (Tolrone) www.artstation.com/artwork/rA...
8 - Ted Nasmith www.tednasmith.com/
9 - Anke Eißmann anke.edoras-art.de/anke_illust...
10 - Yi Jong www.artstation.com/kamiesque
11 - Helge C. Balzer www.helgecbalzer.com/
12 - Ana Guimaraes www.artstation.com/morkeerie
13 - Alexey Rudikov www.artstation.com/alexeyrudikov
14 - CK Göksoy www.artstation.com/ckgoksoy/p...
15 - John Howe www.john-howe.com/blog/
16 - Robert Zigo (Crocorax) www.deviantart.com/crocorax
17 - Justin Gerard www.artstation.com/justingera...
18 - H.F. Evergreen "a cool dude" (Fesbra) www.fesbra.com/
19 - Lída Holubová (Aegeri) www.deviantart.com/aegeri
20 - Edouard Noisette (Silberius) www.artstation.com/silber; www.edouard-noisette.com/
21 - Sarka Skorpikova www.deviantart.com/sarkaskorp...
22 - Anastasiya Sytnik (Algrass) / algrass_art
23 - Lorica Hamata (Madlore) / loricaart
24 - Jonathan Guzi jonathanguzi.com/
25 - Darek Zabrocki / Fantasy Flight Games www.artstation.com/zabrocki; www.fantasyflightgames.com/en...
26 - Sara Morello / saramorelloart
27 - Rui Gonçalves www.artstation.com/artwork/48...
28 - Kenneth Sofia (SpartanK42) www.artstation.com/kensofia42
29 - Irsanna www.deviantart.com/irsanna
30 - Donato Giancola donatoarts.com/
31 - MGCoco / mgcoco
*Music Credits*
Where required, a license has been purchased for use of music. I am not the creator of any of the music used.
Royalty Free Zone: / royaltyfreezone
Tracks Used: “Whisper in Time,” “Voice in the Night," "Behind the Memories"
Fesliyan Studios: www.fesliyanstudios.com/
Tracks Used: "Tears Won't Stop," "Cathedral Ambience," "Tranquility", "Sad Winds Chapter 1"
#tolkien #lordoftherings #morgoth #turin #melkor #silmarillion
Hey Squad!
This is the first of many videos that will be reuploaded under my new policy of only using artwork that has the direct permission of the artist or copyright holder, or is used in compliance with their stated policies.
I really appreciate everyone’s patience while I remake these videos and I’m working as fast as I can to get them back out to you! 🥰
Any likes, comments, and shares would be greatly appreciated as it would help restore this video to its former glory. 🤞
How about surpassing its former glory?😁
Huzzah! Are the updates you are doing to each video only the needed artwork ones?
Awesome! That's a good policy, and I am glad to see it in action. I was wondering what had happened and was going to ask of you.
I can't find videos for this channel. I wanted to watch an older video. When I click on the channel and go to the videos tab, it only gives me 2 options to sort them, popular and recent uploads. Neither option shows me more than 5 videos to choose from. It didn't used to be this way. Does anyone know if I've inadvertently changed something in my settings or things like that? In the past when I clicked on the videos tab it would just be a list every video the channel has uploaded. There was an option to sort them in different ways but I never used it
@@eddiepeterson3231 That's because of what she mentioned above. She took her videos down to redo them to make sure she gets permission to use all artwork in her videos. This video is the first one she has fixed and re-uploaded. She has a post in the community tab explaining all this.
The story of Turin is a great example of how if someone is told often enough that they are awful, eventually they will see themselves as awful. Turin so badly wanted to make good choices, but so often in his impulsiveness would make poor choices that would reinforce his poor outlook on himself. The story of Turin is just a Shakespearean-like tragedy.
Reading the Turin story through my very rudimentary developmental psychology lens is such a terrifying experience 😭 I kind of wonder if Beren might have made a better foster father than Thingol in that regard. "So you lost your whole family, homeland, and inheritance in Morgoth's greatest military victory yet; you have an ambivalent relationship to the Elves who are your last hope of refuge; you're Angband's Most Wanted and the subject of several curses, Dooms, and oaths (most of which predate your birth)? Welcome to the party, cuz!"
@@GirlNextGondor Damn... if only Beren and Túrin had been in the right time/place to meet each other. I had never thought of this before, but now that you mention it, Túrin teaming up with the Beren/Lúthien/Huan trio would have been one of the most incredible groups (fellowships..?) in Arda's history.
@@GirlNextGondor iirc Turin's story was first intended for Dior. It makes sense to me now that Turin could pass for an elf.
@@GirlNextGondor
Good points.
@@GirlNextGondorwow this is tragic for sure
Morgoth can load the dice, and Turin has to play, but it is Turin who decides what the stakes are. It is he that decides to bet the whole farm on one throw.
Read this as 'bet the whole fam' and thought I was reading yet another incest pun.... 🤣
True but the dice are bad dice so no matter what he throws it’s bad he just gets to decide how bad
Morgoth: "My will upon them shall make bad things happen!"
Hurin: "Why haven't you just already done that?"
Morgoth: "?"
Hurin: "You know, all your enemies. Just do that, could demobilize a lot of Orcs and Trolls, save a fortune on the military budget right there."
Morgoth: *twiddles fingers* "These things are beyond your mortal ken...for reasons...important reasons...that only a God would understand...look, carry on here on this mountain seat and see my will made manifest!"
Morgoth: *hurries away* "Blast it all, if I make them all Emo-Goths I got this licked! Got to start broadcasting The Cure non-stop!"
😂 easily one of the greatest comments I've ever received.
The way I understood the story of Turin is that the chessboard belonged to Morgoth and Turin was a player who made all the (wrong) choices.
I really like that metaphor ! Like-he can only make certain moves, and all of them may be losing ones, but some are worse than others... and those are the ones he tends to pick
@@GirlNextGondor so either way he was screwed
I like this explanation a lot.
You asked "Was Túrin Turambar, the tragic protagonist of the tale of The Children of Húrin, actually cursed or was he just a head strong moron?" I think you have clearly demonstrated that the answer is Yes.
Nothing like a little narrative ambiguity to generate the circular argumentation 🤣🤣
😆😂🤣
@@GirlNextGondor Melkor knew a good mark when he saw one.
His moronic tendencies were exacerbated by morgoth to the point that he was doomed.
Ah Turin. Unlucky doesn't begin to describe it, but he doesn't seem to really help the situation any. I feel worse for Nienor, though. Alls *she's* done is run afoul of a dragon and a dark lord with a grudge, neither of which she could help. And accidentally marry her brother, but hell, there's more than enough extenuating circumstances there. Poor little Lalaith gets the least bad life of the 3.
Of all of them I think Nienor was the most undeserving, and Lalaith ironically earned her name
Even though Nienor was the third child of Morwen, she was raised as a only child. I think that is why she was so head-strong and even dragged her mom into a ridiculously silly situation that resulted in the Greek tragedy that unfolded.
A very grim, yet a delightfully accurate and groovy summary of the painful path this doomed fellow walked … at least until the dagor dagorath!
Can safely say I have never attributed the word 'groovy' to anything relating to the Narn I hin Hurin 🤣 thank you
@@GirlNextGondor 😂🤣🤟🏾
"Thankless Fosterling, Outlaw, Slayer of thy friend, Thief of love, Usurper of Nargothrond, Captain Foolhardy, deserter of thy kin."
Glaurung Troll Game 🎯
I mean, was he wrong though? 😅 Maybe we've got it all wrong and it was just Glaurung using tough love.
@@GirlNextGondor oh no.. he was 100% right. Lol
I'm actually in awe on how such a sweet and sentimental man like Tolkien woke up one day and chose violence on Turin
@@GirlNextGondor he was a true genius i a say what you are a d therefore you believe it he says it because he knows his Turin perceives the forces he fights that they have complete power over him . That’s the trick to make him think they are untouchable when they are not .
Personaly... I think Morgoth really was THAT powerful. It truly was an inescapable curse. And through that curse, Morgoth was able to destroy the 3 hidden elven kingdoms.
I had to think for a second how the story of Turin led to the destruction of Gondolin but you're absolutely right.
Completely agreed.
Turin is really frustrating. Beleg brings lembas for him and his men in the wild and he's just like "lol I'll starve thanks"
One of the most tragic characters ever. I have a soft spot for him as well as finding him infuriating. He is responsible for most of his bad luck I think buts its hard to tell whether the tragic events could have been avoided without the influence of Melkor/Morgoth. Just had a thought, maybe he was called Master of Fate because he had to try and master himself and fight against Morgoth which he never really did, he gave up in the end which is perhaps what Morgoth wanted. Beautiful video GNG!
It's always a good day when a GNG video returns from the Halls of Mandos clad in its new copyright-compliant hroa :)
😆 this is officially how I'm going to describe the process from now on.
Fantastic explanation of what happened.👍👍👍👍👍
Yes, that’s true, yet I wish the old videos were posted as audio-only podcasts in the meantime. Using your analogy, this would be them available on the internet as pure fea.
I don't usually comment on TH-cam videos, but I just wanted to pop in and say that I have huge respect for what you are doing here. The amount of time, work and effort it takes you to make these well researched and lore deep videos is already insane. I can't even imagine how much effort it took you to go throw all of that work again just because you don't want to take anything away from the artists. And on top of all that you are still making new high quality videos. Just wow. Huge huge respect
Completely agreed. I’ve not seen a creator trying so hard to do the right thing.
Thank you 🥰 I appreciate that. It is quite an upfront investment of effort, but one that I think will really pay off in the future security of the channel.
I love hurin our day will come 70 something times moment. Before it goes left .
Probably my personal favorite epic deed in the legendarium, and easily the most metal warcry.
@@GirlNextGondor agreed. Fyi the war cry ( our day will come) is the English translation of a Gaelic ( Irish) phras or rallying cry . ( Tolkien being a linguist would probably have known that ) and the phrase was adopted around the beginning of ww1 it has been the catch phrase for Irish Republican army ( IRA ) up until the late 90s and is still used by their political party. ( sinn fain ) anglo Irish conflict aka the troubles. The phrase in original language is probably far old at least 700 years ( 1179 ad to 1996 ) woth long periods of wathful peace .( history nerd )
I still think the worst part of the whole Narn i Chîn Húrin is Niniel diving into the gorge of Cabed-en-Aras probably 7-9 months pregnant. No fan art ever depicts this. But if you do the math, it would make sense. Married on mid-summer day, late June, (when Turin was home 24/7 to do his best to knock her up) and diving to her death in the spring of the next year. Even if she was only a day pregnant, it is still a murder suicide, IMO. How Tolkien could have let that happen is unforgivable. I guess in his generation such things were okay for God to allow, but simply stating that she had a miscarriage would have solved this moral dilemma. Thanks Professor.😢
@@Enerdhil its os the worst part agreed the poor child .. well reallife history and mythology/ gods . Plenty of incest. Amongst the gods and men ( royalty)( shudder)
I will put on my makeup, crawl under a table and record my "leave Turin alone" response
😂
Soo..... magic Turbo Oedipus with an added bit of Satan. Nice
Your dedication is commendable, honestly. It's sadly not rare to see artwork, especially Tolkien-related artwork, used even without proper credits. But to go back and remake a whole video just to ensure it respects all the creators' wishes... That's just inspiring.
Thank you for taking the time to do it. I'll try and watch this 139 times, to get it back to the OG's levels.
Thank you ❤ given what I'm seeing in internet/copyright/ trademark trends, I think more and more people will be adopting higher standards for attribution and permission, and that added transparency will be good for everyone - artists, video makers, audiences, and IP owners.
3:16 Let's not forget folks, they were also expecting their first child. Congrats to them!
Oh how could we forget 🙀
@@GirlNextGondor I imagine they would have been a very happy family, despite the times they lived in.
Yay! It's back.
The Children of Hurin is a curious one, in that it's the one Tolkien story where conventional Providence feels like it is Out to Lunch, and to be honest, I'm not really sure it can really fit into Tolkien's own invented metaphysics. Tolkien's source material (the Finnish Kullervo) put the protagonist's disasters down to the effects of bad parenting, but Tolkien raised the stakes for his own story and utterly drenched it in Norse Wyrd.
It's definitely an outlier - maybe it's telling that CoH is the most completely conceived Tale of the 'mature' legendarium. For once Tolkien can't help but think narratively without consulting his 'metaphysics' and retconning or digressing fractally into the abyss. Maybe its particularly close association with Kullervo helped too, by laying out the non-negotiable elements and themes.
@@GirlNextGondor
What does "maturity" intrinsicly have to do with bad fortune
@@goyonman9655I would guess (and it is just a guess, to be clear) that she's drawing a distinction between the earlier versions of the Legendarium with the later ones.
The earliest versions of many stories in what would become the Silmarillion were much more derivative of Victorian era children's fairy stories, in the style of George MacDonald and William Morris (both of whom were cited by Tolkien as influences). The later period is much more consciously adult in tone and content. The stories are also much more fully formed. Hence, "mature".
@@SonofSethoitae
But what does bad fortune gave to do with being adult
@@goyonman9655 Did I say the bad fortune was the part that was for adults? No, I said it was part of a story which was consciously written for adults.
You know, if Turin had moved to Alabama, everything would have been fine.
True! -- Dragons haven't been seen in Alabama since the late 20s.
Woo-hoo! Turin is back!
While I won't argue that Turin is an idiot and a failure in some ways, though I think him the most pitiable figure in the whole of the Legendarium. But man this video is one of the best, and love how you pointed out the flaws of Turambar but also the most interesting elements of the tale. I do wonder if there was as you say an element of Morgoth within Turin. I wonder if he invested a bit of his energy into him, as he did into Arda. Not enough to control him as he does Glaurung but just enough to make him a little nuttier.
Wonderful job as usual. I'm proud of you for taking the time to rework and edit these videos. Many wouldn't take the time and energy to improve on an already awesome video.
Thank you very much! 🥰
Turin deserved better 😭😭
Maybe its prefiguring the idea that we cant beat Morgoth or his influence with our own power no matter how hard we struggle. That's why we need an external force, Illuvatar himself, to physically enter Arda and become a talking lion.
Found the Lewisite 🤣
@@GirlNextGondor Nooo.I hate Narnia lol. I wonder if one of the hidden subtexts of the Turin story is a subtle christian theme about how we humans are ultimately powerless to defeat the forces of evil here on earth and we need an outside force to grant us salvation through grace. Finrod hinted at some version of the Incarnation during his debate with Andreth. Turin is like the virtuous pagan living his life heroically as best he can in a hopeless prechristian world. Maybe thats why Tolkien thought the story so important,apart from the fact that it's a badass story with massive dramatic power. I also get the feeling Tolkien channelled a lot of his angst into Turin. Turin's such a brooding emo antihero compared to ever other Silm character. No wonder I related to Turin so much as a teenager when I first read and reread and reread the Silmarillion lol
What a great guy to be named after
If you don't mind my asking, WERE you named after the Tolkien character, or is this just a coincidence?
@@GirlNextGondor I was named after the cursed warrior known as Turin and Neithan the Wronged
I just watched this with my youngest daughter, a psych major, who only read The Hobbit. Yet the reasoning, the pacing, the contemporary references, the humor, held her attention. We agree, you’re brilliant.
Turin and Nienor's story disturbs me. As far as I can tell, every other tragedy in legendarium without exception ends up serving a single purpose at the end, reinforcement and preservation of the bloodline that carries out the blood of all houses of both children and of the Ainur. Depending on how you look at it, you could say all those tragedies were worth it because that bloodline will eventually end up producing the redemption of all. I am having a hard time justifying the tragedy of Turin and Nienor (I might add Morwen to these two too I guess) without reaching too much though...
Even Hurin ends up serving that purpose at the end, he indirectly has a hand in the downfall of both Doriath and Gondolin which ends up moving the pieces that would cause the joining of two half-elven lines. The "reaching too much" part above I mentioned was related to this. Turin and Nienor's final fates were what eventually ended up pushing Hurin to utter bitterness, which ended up serving the purpose above. But it is just too cruel a purpose to give to them for my taste, I am even having a hard time calling it a "purpose". I just can't fathom why Tolkien would choose to write (ahem, I mean "translate") a story like this. It probably is the most well-written story outside the Lord of the Rings, but he doesn't strike me as someone who would write a story for the sake of writing a well-written story.
The abandoned Dagor Dagorath concept actually makes it more acceptable. Turin and Nienor being purified, being reborn as "offsprings of Valar", and finally Turin avenging the children of Hurin, all of these if Turin and Nienor were essential for that final triumph, would make their tragedy "worth it".
Anyway, before I rumble on more, it is great that you are putting back your older videos. I wanted to re-watch some of them, and was devastated when I found out that you had temporarily taken them down so I am glad that they are coming back. Cheers.
Thank you 🍻 it's nice to have this one up again!
I don't know that you're reaching necessarily; I think the Turin story sets up a surprising amount of the 'necessary' redemption of the First Age. Plus, defeating Glaurung is an important feat no matter the circumstance.
I wouldn't call Dagor Dagorath "abandoned," but "incomplete," unless Tolkien explicitly stated somewhere that he had decided to strike it from the Legendarium. But other than that, I agree that the fates of Túrin and Nienor were much more cruel than either of them deserved or to justify their achievements. Killing Glaurung is certainly an achievement worthy of song (and a big-budget movie) but, honestly, Glaurung would have been killed anyway in the War of Wrath that came not long afterward.
But for my part, I accept Dagor Dagorath as an event that factually happens within the Legendarium just because of how damn cool it is.
The story of Turin Turambar is tragedy, like Orpheus and Eurydice, it's not meant to have a satisfying end. The final resolution is the delivered in the overthrow of Morgoth of whom is the primary cause of all this evil and sorrow. The earliest version is written in a consciously archaic manner. Tolkien is probably drawing on some earlier literature and style of writing, (Romantic) and the story makes most sense viewed in that light. Rather than pondering how and why in terms of psychology.
"The abandoned Dagor Dagorath concept actually makes it more acceptable. Turin and Nienor being purified, being reborn as "offsprings of Valar", and finally Turin avenging the children of Hurin, all of these if Turin and Nienor were essential for that final triumph, would make their tragedy "worth it"."
I disagree with this sentiment strongly. Very strongly. First of all, sticking your sword in someone else is in no way comparable to sticking your 'sword' into your long lost sister unknowingly, sticking your sword into your best friend who came to save you, and sticking your sword into yourself due to deep despair. "Oh I got you in the end" Doesn't undo the past, obviously, but it doesn't ameliorate it either. Not in the slightest. I mean, first of all, he only came back in spirit, and most likely would just go back to being dead once the big bad guy dies, but say he lives on, what then? Are he and his sister just blessed with amnesia or something? Just awkwardly have dinner together, trying to forget you got her pregnant with a guiltless child she took along with her own life?
I agree with others. While I think the story is incredibly well written, not only do I dislike it, it fundamentally, metaphysically doesn't belong within the same world as the rest of the stories. It's like an alternate grimderp reality of the setting where the values of hope and love are irrelevant and not cosmic forces moving the plot.
I wonder what your thoughts are about if Tolkein had an idea or story type on mind since he has so many different types in his massive catalogue. Im often back and forth on if these tales just flowed forth and gestated into life or if he was able to purposfully add types like love stories or tragedies seeking a balance of lore. Thank you again for your obvious hard work. It shows excellent and entertainong
Revival comment for the glory of the algorithm.
I had to watch this one twice in a row, will probably go for round three and dust off my copy of "The Children of Hurin." I lost my younger sister in a family tragedy, had parents that were both noble yet troubled. Iron willed yet haughty, and quick to pity and anger is a perfect description of my parents respectively; as is empathetic, intelligent, adventurous, mercurial, and arrogant that did big things but often left a disruptive wake. Perhaps this is a lot of people, and the archetype came from the mind of a man that lived a century before in another failing empire, but wow, it is so on the nose I will be processing this for a while.
Túrin's and his family's history is kind of a Greek tragedy.
Damn girl u so smart & articulate.
Yeah, kind of love Tolkien’s tragic flawed characters. Thorin, Feanor, Turin, Boromir. I feel for these compelling yet doomed heroes. And I can identify with how they take willful and foolish actions that end up in self sabotage. Much easier to empathize with than the ineffable elves with all their otherworldly perfection. 😑
Britney Spears guy:
Just LEAVE TURIN ALONE! WHY DONT YOU JUST LEAVE HIM ALONE!
Never forget the first time I read about Turin I was like Tolkien that’s dark bud 💚
This was one of my favorites. Glad to see it spring from the shadows!
Let's talk about Morgoth, not Melkor, Morgoth...
When I am debating the actions and motives of Morgoth I always ask the following?
1. Will this action hurt Eru or his children? How can I make this action of chain of events the largest possible middle finger to Eru (see Thangorodrim)?
2. Is this action so awful that Eru can't redeem it with all that "more wonderful" nonsense? Can I make Eru out to be a liar?
3. If there is a worse option, that is the one Morgoth will choose. There might have been a time before his chaining where Melkor just wanted to rule Arda, but by the time he is named Morgoth, that is all out the window. From then on he is the Devil in Hell (or, Angband, if you will). He spews hate, violence, and chaos and seeks the destruction or at least, total subjugation and utter misery for all of the Children of Eru.
4. Rules are for losers like my straight arrow wind bro. If you can't break them directly, just find a way around them. If you ain't cheating, you ain't tryin' to win.
As I watched this again, it occurred to me that Feanor and Turin would make a great dark mirror pairing to Beor and Finrod. Turin could have been the adopted 8th son of Feanor. All that negative energy and arrogance in one location would be a dirty nuclear bomb waiting to go off at the slightest provocation. Who knows maybe two really wrongs make this fantasy master and protégé pairing really right?
Yes! And also by this time Morgoth had a limp from having one foot and a scared face. I feel that by this point in the story he is weaker but also more terrible and dark. The same thing occurred to me when I read this section - Morgoth seems to really make Eru out to be a liar here as there is nothing "more wonderful" to yet be seen.
Also Turin totally resembles Feanor yes!
Convincing Orodreth to meet Glaurung in open battle instead of defending from inside Nargothrond told me everything I need to know. I think he's just an idiot lol.
Gonna love rewatching all your videos
Thank you! 😊
"This sounds like Middle Earth's version of neuro-psychology."
I thought it sounded more like Middle Earth's version of original sin.
Good video.
On Túrin's corner, he was never taught how to deal with trauma nor grief, and Mommy never sent a letter with the physical description of the living kid sister.
The rest he brought on his own damn self, curse or no curse.
I love that you have to re-upload these videos. It brings them back on my radar so I can be reminded of how awesome the stories are again.
It will be good to revisit these and watch some I may have missed.
Hope you enjoy 🥰
Legitimately a fantastic video essayist
Thank you, Alex!
Amazing content. Amazing content guidelines, Thank you for fostering this community. Your literary analysis is 'spot on'. I'm blown away by every new content video.
This was good stuff, first time and is better now. Doing the right thing with the artwork is admirable. I feel like the professor would have approved. Thanks GNG and keep up the good work.
Thank you JRX 😊 it's nice knowing everything is above board
Great video. You've triggered some pondering:
20:30
"...the Stone of the Hapless should not be defiled by Morgoth nor ever thrown down, not though the sea should drown all the land; as after indeed befell, and still Tol Morwen stands alone in the water beyond the new coasts that were made in the days of the wrath of the Valar."
Quenta Silmarillion, Chapter 22, "Of The Ruin of Doriath", by JRRT
Here's the question that's bugging me: Of all the heroes, characters, tragedies, etc. of the First Age why should the monument to Morwen/Turin/Nienor be granted the singular reverential status to remain above the waves after the drowning of Beleriand? Instead of "Tol Morwen", we could have had "Tol Beren" or "Tol Luthien" or "Tol Finrod" or "Tol Fingolfin".
I think a bit of it is that the family of Hurin showed so much better than any of the other stores the suffering of the Children of Eru at the hands of Morgoth. The stories of the other heroes have some good in them. Turin's began and ended tragically.
Welcome baaack 😊😊😊 I'm really looking forward to all the videos returning, and of course new ones I haven't seen before 🙌🏼 Thanks for taking the time and effort to work with artists and protect their rights.
Extremely excellent as always. I am of the opinion that Turin was both very encumbered with the curse laden will of Morgoth and that he was the stupidest, most stubborn idiot since Feanor and Morgoth. If a measly Ring with 2/3rds of a Maia in it can bend people to misfortune and wickedness, even control elements of people's fates, then what can the direct will of the Vala Morgoth accomplish?
Thank you sir! The both/and answer is definitely necessary when evaluating Turin 😅 As an additional layer of complexity: we know that a lot of Morgoth's 'power' has by this point in history passed out of his direct, conscious control, which seems to be a little different from how Sauron works through the Rings. How much of the "curse" was Morgoth's conscious interference, and how much could be attributed to the general marred-ness of the world?
Fabulous video. Well constructed and reasoned out. Your content is well above average as far as TH-cam goes.
One thing: you neglected to give us a smidgen of hope in mentioning the end times prophecy where Turin uses Gurthang to strike the final fatal blow on Melkor thus avenging his curse and all of fallen Men. Dunno how canon this is, but I enjoy the heck out of it.
😁 Some very nice pictures! Great subject. My favourite tale. Perfect video as usual!!! 😁
🥰 thanks, glad you liked it!
The best video. You r genius ♥️♥️♥️♥️. Such objective analysis. I love the part where Hurin actually gets humbled by Morgoth. Seeing that it’s true, Morgoth doesn’t need to control destiny, his power to cause external suffering expaperating emotions n outlook of characters is enough. N Hurin works for Morgoth’s curse too at the end n as Morgoth says cursing both life n death without hope.
Yay! New video
Thanks for the video! Well researched and thorough. A sobering look on one of my most favourite threads of The Silmarillion.
This is purely conjecture, but my take on this particular story has always been one of context. The Silmarillion is an epic of varied stories around a common timeline and loosely interconnected narrative. Hence, certain threads play a role to demonstrate a moral or realism relatable parable. The Children Of Hurin thread is one to showcase true tragedy- no matter the gallantry, intentions, or prowess of the characters, their story must be tragic to serve that role in the larger narrative. I use the "deus ex machina" example of Glaurung. The character is pure evil (and I admit it was one of my favourite aspects of the story), and he puts a spell on Nienor and even Turin falls into a stupor around him. These characters are unduly led along a path of tragedy. The Silmarillion is not a "choose your own adventure" story, it's a great fantasy alongside The Illiad/Odyssey or Beowulf to teach us about us.
Anyway, just my thoughts. Keep up the good work :)
Absolutely. Nobody has that much organic bad luck.
g.r.r. martin saw turin and got really into some messed up stuff
Hooray! I Love any video about Turambar. I thinks it's because that I too have been ridiculed for where I come from. When I reacted (like an ass mind you) I was punished and proceeded to believe in my self at a young age. Keep up the great work Mellon.
Lord Storm Crow the Brun.
p.s. Glaurung scares the ish out of me. Especially Christopher Lee's Glaurung
Thanks Mellon 😁 agreed, Glaurung is a particularly chilling villain, a big stinky dragon who's also cunning and urbane enough to be a match for Lee's presence
Pride goeth before the fall. That is Turin's greatest sin and the root of all his woe. Some humility would have spared him a world of pain. But his pride is his armor against the world that deprived him of all he was taught was his by right. I love and loathe Turin. The Children of Hurin is a Greek tragedy and Turin is Oedipus. And he bears much of the responsibility for his acts. He overcame Nienor's reticence to marry and shares even in that sin. Morgoth only had to prepare the field Turin to sew the seeds of his self destruction. Glaurung tended the garden well. Turin bears.great responsibility for his actions. He always knew it, too.
Like a Greek hero he's a creature of extremes - the most valiant, powerful, gracious, beautiful Man and also the most rash, proud, infuriating, and pathetic, a victim and a perpetrator.
@@GirlNextGondor it is beautifully written. We shout at Turin to be reasonable. Beg him to listen to his friends. But he is so stubborn, so prideful. He has charisma beyond the gifts of men. Very few can resist his sway. And those that do pay the price anyway. Tolkien's thoughts on his ultimate redemption are fascinating, too. Elevating him to an avenging angel of sorts. Granting Turin the power of divine retribution against the Children of Illuvitar's chief antagonist in the final battle. Hurin's tale is another Greek hero's tale. The Aristeia of Hurin is as potent as that of Diomedes, Patroclus and even Achilles. The Professor had his Homer and his Aeschylus open during the writing of the Narn I Hin Hurin.
Wow this was so nuanced and insightful.
It's a terrifyingly delicate subject. I had to step very carefully around the logical sinkholes lest I be engulfed.
Nice work
Great video keep up the good work
Thank you TGNG! As always great reasoning! When we look at the story of LOTR, I think the influence on fate by the Valar and Maiar is pretty obvious (eg. dreams, bringing Gandalf back etc.). In Turins story this is less the case and Tolkien as a researcher did this with high propability on purpose for transporting his thinking of fate and as a narrative twist to show that still men has free will. As TGNG states the name makes it quite clear. But we have to admire the way Tolkien does it, because he starts his story he keeps us uncertain if and how Morgoth curse works and then uses his narration - which is different from LOTR - to show that Turin mostly decided for himself and showed typical human characteristics. The absence of direct intervention - again compared to LOTR - further leads us to understand, that sometimes, even if you have all the necessary hero characteristics, you can fail. Ergo: A Turin Turambar turun' ambartanen
I always felt that Morgoth's curse was more obviously apparent with Nienor and Morwen, whereas with Turin there was a somewhat ambiguous quality as to whether it was Morgoth or Turin's own arrogance and other flaws that led to his downfall.
Peerless enlightening erudition about an aspect of the work of an author who has been dear to me for the past 45 years. Thank you.
Excellent as always. I do wonder whether people should just be told to read CoH after LotR, and only then if they like the despair of the First Age, go back and read the '77 Silmarillion. Don't worry about people getting stuck on all those Fin's and the Ainulindalë, Valaquenta, and Of Beleriand and its Realms, and they get to enjoy* Tolkien's only other (more-or-less) complete Middle-earth novel.
*I gather people enjoy** reading A Song of Ice and Fire, too
**for a given definition of "enjoy"
It's an interesting question; on the one hand it stands alone, which as you noted is a welcome and refreshing trait in the legendarium, but I always think there's an added layer of poignancy that comes from knowing the overall context of the story, what led to it and what stems from it.
Maybe "admire" or even just "behold" instead of "enjoy"...? 🤣
So as I recall on the first incarnation of the hröa (as it were) of this video I think I quipped that the Children of Hurin is what we get when Tolkien thinks he ended an episide known as the Battle of Un-numbered Tears on too positive a note. And with some extra reflection time in a way I think it's even more true: yes Hurin's children were cursed by Morgoth, but Turin's central flaw was always himself. If it were just Morgoth's curse, in a way that would absolve Turin of responsibility. How much worse then is the realisation that the curse that has been plaguing you your entire existence has been operating, in large part, because of your own self - that in effect you are the architect of your enemy's malice upon yourself. That the worst things that happened to you and that you did you, ultimately, entirely of your own making.
The question I have been pondering - because it is an area about which I am less familiar - is how do we square Turin's life with his apparent role during Dagor Dagorath. Tolkien's tales change over time, but unless I mis-remember the central thesis of The Children of Hurin was pretty steady in a shifting ocean of change. I think the Second prophecy shows that, at least at one point, Tolkien has some further ideas of Turin's place in the legendarium that form a reflection of his tumultuous life.
And why, millennia later, is Turin regarding as a hero in the halls of Rivendell - that place of Noldor exiles who tell this tale? Who know that Turin was responsible, in part, for the destruction of Nargothrond, and other fell deeds. And listed as one with whom it is worthy to be compared? Frodo's place, Elrond says, would be among a number of heroes. Beren is one, and Turin is another.
But given Frodo's journey in a way isn't Turin an appropriate first age hero? Whatever his flaws Turin did always strive against Morgoth, even when everything always went awry. But because of his flaws magnifying and enabling Morgoth's curse it was a struggle with only one real possible outcome. And Frodo's journey was also going, by itself, to end in failure. At some point Frodo would be overcome by the flaws in his own nature. Now Frodo is not as self-destructive as Turin is, and in other endeavours perhaps this would not work. But given the nature of Frodo's trial ... it seems to be there are echoes.
Sorry for clogging up your comment with a long "thinking-aloud" response, but I wonder if this may be a little as to why Turin is remembered as a hero, even as his tragedies are remembered and retold. Because he still did his best to resist, when every choice turned against him, even his own nature. And this most flawed human is the one, at some point anyway, Tolkien thought might deal Melkor the killing blow.
I know that the canonicity of the Dagor Dagorath is dubious at best, but i really like the thought of Turin being the one who, at the great battle between good and evil at the end of the world, will finally kill Morgoth once and for all.
I love the idea of him waiting in the halls of Mandos, refusing to move on and leave the circles of the earth. His broken black sword being salvaged and reforged by the Valar and his image being set in the stars (as the constellation we know as Orion) to foretell his role in the end.
I just like the thought that, even though he will literally have to wait till the end of this world for it, Turin *will* get his revenge.
And not only will he get his revenge... his wrath will finally have achieved something wholly good, without any catch or downside. He will have found redemption, as much as revenge.
I just like the idea of Turins story having some kind of distant happy ending... as bittersweet as it may be.
"I KILLED SOMEONE AND IT DIDN'T BACKFIRE!" (high-fives reincarnated Beleg, Gwindor, Finduilas, and Androg, before going in for a bro-hug on Saeros).
That is a sad but humane treatment of one of Tolkien's grimmest narratives. A kind of anti-Tale of Beren and Luthien. Very well done.
If the GNG squad ever forms a sports team (because hey, why wouldn't we?), the Middle-earth Masochists would be a great name for it!
We'd look something like this I imagine 🤣 Middle-earth Masochists: taking the pain since 1954!
th-cam.com/video/GlZKiGyETyE/w-d-xo.html
I just started watching a few days ago, and a history professor, you produce outstanding material. Your research and referencing is exemplary, do you hold a graduate degree(s)?
Emotions are not decisions. Very wise.
Wow. I found your channel through Tolkien Lore. You are very based and legit just like he said. 💯💯💯
Ah, the Narn i Chin Húrin... or as I like to call it, "the most depressing story ever brought to ink".
Poor Turin … a hot-temper led to such rash actions on his part, which lead to the suffering of so many. The only good thing he had was a loving sister as a child… and a loving wife as an adult. Those two women were like Clark Kent and Superman…. for whatever reason you never saw them in the same place at the same time… 🤔
Too soon! 😆
Seeing them in the EXACT same place at the same time is arguably what did poor Turin in.
His loving sister Lalaith died. That was the first thing that really turned him into a grim character, and that happened before the curse.
@@Enerdhil True but at that point I think it is fair to say the whole of Beleriand was cursed even beyond the level of corruption Morgoth put into the whole of Arda.
Nice work thanks
Identifying with Mr Neithan back in my youth was just my own emo phase
Thank you lexi . This must have been difficult to write or has been under consideration for some time. ( think that was something like my original comment)
Thank you Shane 😆 it's kind of like a historical re-enactment of Three Months Ago
@@GirlNextGondor lol yes
A case can be made that Turin makes many objectively bad choices. But it can also be argued that many people would make a lot of the same choices if you were in his shoes. One example being the death of Beleg. He had every reason to believe his life was in danger when being awoken by Beleg accidentally cutting him while untying him. And obviously he made the decision to try to kill the first living thing he saw. Why would he assume he had been rescued?
One question that I was hoping to get clarification on; is Turin aware of the curse? I can’t recall, probably because this tale is so grim.
not really, I think he only thought everything bad that happened was Morgoths fault, but not a curse fault
Forget if it made it into the final version, but Gwindor (I think?) reports to him the rumor among the thralls of Angband that Morgoth is doing some special doom thing on Hurin's family, and Turin's response is 'well that explains a lot'
I'm pretty sure he thought he was cursed. I think he frequently just blamed all his misfortune on the curse rather than taking responsibility for it himself.
He was definitely aware of it; that's one of the reasons he kept changing his name. In The Silmarillion (pages 210-211 in my copy) Gwindor tells Finduilas: "... this Man is not Beren. A doom indeed lies on him... his right name is Túrin son of Húrin, whom Morgoth holds in Angband, and whose kin he has cursed." And after Finduilas proceeds to tell Túrin what Gwindor had said, Túrin accuses Gwindor of having betrayed him under the delusion that hiding his true name somehow protects Túrin from said curse.
I went back to The Children if Hurin, Gwindor does mention the curse after Beleg is killed but before they reach Nargothrond.
By the way - the causeway to the gates of Helm's Deep. The Bridge to Nargothrond.
Has no one ever heard of a *drawbridge*? Just asking. Oh, and the gates are to open outward so that trying to batter them down only sets them more firmly into their gateposts, not making those gates dependent on a single bar to hold them fast.
You would think that some of the greatest civil engineers of Middle-Earth would have thought of that.
🤣 one would think. To be fair, Turin's whole schtick is that he wants to quickly lead large, heavily armed forces out, and I'm no expert in bridge technology but there might be some structural limitations to moveable bridges. But as you pointed out, you'd think the NOLDOR would be able to come up with something.
Thank you very much!
Hmm. I thought Turins story introduced scope and perspective at the primal level. It was about Hurin's life and progeny representing but a wink in Morgoths eye. It was about the geological struggle between Glaurong and Turin. It was about Turin's attempt to control his own destiny amongst the towering waves cast against him. It was his confusion when faced with the fleeting perspectives of his peers. The inability to shift focus to discover imperceptible truths. As if being out of step with his own narrative, an outside observer, unable to find a grounding. All attempts he made to do so, were taken in consequence. An ill fated trigger brought to focus through malice and cruelty. Those fates he couldn't understand. These fates cast upon him in cloaks of deceit and indifference. A fools contention to abide. The futility of doom rests of no mistake. Like those who lay judgement, from high on a wall. For those who would build it, what side will they fall!
Usually when Tolkien writes, his 'position' compared to his work is much like that of Eru. But in Túrin's story he also takes the position of Morgoth, subtly weaving the web of woe (if you'll pardon my alliteration) that makes for such an interesting story and compelling character. As you may be able to tell, I just came from your 'Sin of Creation' video.
The Tale of Turin is one of my favorite stories. Anakin Skywalker has some Turin vibes.
Song of Durin: _"The world was young, the mountains green, No stain yet on the Moon was seen, No words were laid on stream or stone When Durin woke and walked alone."_
Song of Túrin: _"HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN TO MEEEE? I MADE MY MISTAKES..."_
“eau de Morgoth”
It's a very gross phrase but it was the best I could come up with 😆
I’m not a bot.
Gotta say I appreciate the take on this story. Read it as a teenager and absolutely hated it. I so badly wanted a happy ending but just when I thought things had changed course for good, it would not. Again and again.
By the end of the story I hated Turin but at the beginning I did feel like the world was working against him(and me from being happy).
Children of Hurin would make for such an amazing TV show.
So ultimately it wasn't the curse that hurt them - it was the outlook Morgoth gave them. ...
I'm just not buying into that. I'm sorry.
But you explained the details very well and I will rewatch the video a few more times.
I think it was both morgoth is powerful but the perception of his power is different from those of the elves , valar and men elves had his peers to understand what he was about a d could do he was knowable to them . But men had no such luck we had no one to confirm what this godlike being truly was and the fact we die so quickly makes it harder because we are never their to see or remember his defeat unlike our brothers the elves due to the born gifts had that chance and I feel
They unconsciously looked down on us as we fought him but could not see him as easily as them due to our limited knowledge and perspective. A resentment is planted unconsciously by men for those in the know this seed would pop off in numenor but existed long before . Then comes Turin a man who s cured by this being unlike elves who were spared such a fate is it I wonder he acted the way he did I feel they explained things in a way that belittled him and his race then unconsciously acted holier then him so he pushed himself to be their equal in battle yet he would age a d eventually die while they remained in their prime in the fight against the being who owns his life
Men I think are more susceptible to the influence of Melkor because of their free will and mortality. Elven minds seem more dominated by Fate and Doom than that of Men, so Elves have a more fatalistic "shouganai" attitude toward the events around them. This attitude limits their options and narrows the extremes of the good and evil that they're capable of. Men with their free will have a wider birth than Elves on both extremes. Men with their free will also shudder at the idea of forces that seek to limit their free will, like how Melkor threatens to do. Elves are more at home with the idea of things being beyond their control than Men. That and all choices for Men are higher stakes due to their limited time on Arda. They only get one life, one chance, and that life is so utterly short, especially during the First Age.
The Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth also gets into this idea - Men are very 'Carpe diem' and Elves are more fatalistic, increasingly as time wears on.
turin is a very loving brother
I feel dirty liking this comment 🤣
Good video :)
@GirlNextGondor are transcripts of your incredibly well written analysis videos available anywhere? I am writing some detailed essays and would like to be able to source any quotes of yours in an easier to reference way than time stamps in a youtube video. As a writer myself I would highly recommend, if you haven't already, compiling the written transcripts of these amazing videos into a compilation to consider one day publishing, as I have not yet encountered any that are as well written and thought out and impeccably sourced as your own. To say that I am impressed would not even come close to my impressions of what you have brought forth. Truly a work of passionate creation, that are not only perfect for those just starting on their journey into the deeper world of Tolkien, but also for those who already have a deep knowledge of his works to see and view things from a new and interesting perspective.
Thanks!
Rad!
Turin Turinbar is a 1st cousin to Tuor They see each other once outside Gondolin eyeshot of each other and I don't think they knew how each other knew . Can you please do Tuor story. Besides King Elessar and Methrandir are my 2 favorite. Tuor is 3rd. He is except in LOTR the only mortal that goes to Valinor and is counted among the Elves
Turin isn't at all a tragic figure. He brought every misfortune upon himself. Every stupid and egotistical desision that he made brought him to his demise. Two important things shows that: first in Nargothrond he is only happy when everyone does what he wants (and that brought the city's demise) and second when someone calls him by his real name he says: "Why you said that? Now you will brought the curse than my name carries!!!" The man respond to him: "It's not your name that brings the curse, but your dark heart!".
Turin is an ageostical person, acts without thinking about their consequences (not only to him, but also on the people around him), he never learns from his mistakes and doesn't even acknowledged them and most importantly demands that everyone should do what he wants. He is definitely one of the most monstrosious characters that Tolkien ever created.
But isn't supposed to be the tragic hero? The protagonist of the story? Not at all. Tolkien, made him such an asshole on purpose. And thats because the true tragic hero of the story is Hurin, Turin's father! Chained and helpless he saw all the misfortune that hited his family and the worst part was that he saw that it was do to his son's selfish actions! And for a father, to see his children to self destroying themselves, that is a fate worse than hell itself!
The Children of Hurin, my favorite soap opera.
*pops popcorn and slurps soda"
When I first read the story of Turin, I was pleasantly surprised that Tolkien has written such a story. It’s a tragedy really. While not exactly like Oedipus Rex, it contains elements of cursed fate and of course the…oogie part. Critics of Tolkien have sometime said his works were full of shallow characters (which is wrong of course) but it’s unlikely that they had read the Silmarillion at the time.
Beyond this, I wish to point that whether Morgoth was actually able to curse the family of Hurin, Turin must have felt that he was somehow cursed after after going through so many tragic episodes in his life, whether or not his flawed character was responsible for them.
And let’s not forget Nienor. She’s faultless in the dreadful things that happen to her. A curse might explain her situation better than in Turin’s case. And let’s not forget that the Elves later considered the Children of Hurin to be the greatest of the works of Beleriand.
No, Húrin was cursed. Túrin was only "cursed" insofar as he was born into a very unjust world that he was largely unable to change for the better. It's very much a case of the road to hell being paved with good intentions. Túrin wants to do good, but the world he's living in is just so fundamentally unjust that he ends up causing harm anyway. His chief character flaw, pride, doesn't help matters. Although I doubt he would have done anywhere near as much damage without Glaurung manipulating him. And certainly Nienor would not have done as she did but for Glaurung's manipulations. Morgoth's curse was on Húrin: forcing him to watch his children destroy themselves.
One of the reasons I strongly prefer Gilgalad to be the son of Orodreth, is that it makes his decisions in The Children of Húrin far more reasonable: and makes Túrin look far less bad. Orodreth, like his aunt and uncle, has foresight. He was well aware that Nargothrond's days were numbered, and what the results of Túrin's suggestions were going to be. Far from being gullible, Orodreth knew exactly what he was getting himself into. And yet, he doesn't send his only child to safety? No, that can't be right.
But if he has already sent Gilgalad to Cirdan, then his decision not to send Finduilas away makes a lot more sense. She isn't his only child, and he wants her to remain for a very good reason: he knows that if she marries Túrin, he will be able to break Glaurung's spell. Glaurung could have been defeated, or even killed, right there at the sack of Nargothrond: if Túrin had simply been able to break the dragon's spell. When Orodreth decides to not destroy the bridge, it's because his intention is to lure Glaurung to Nargothrond. Orodreth's death then echoes those of his father and uncles, and the fact that he refuses to follow the advice of Ulmo is quite simply because Ulmo still doesn't understand elves. Of course Orodreth would rather die if it means possibly killing Glaurung instead of fleeing and simply postponing the inevitable.
Túrin also comes out of this scenario looking better. He hasn't encouraged the Nargothrondrim to face a force they aren't prepared to handle, *they* are prepared (but *he* isn't). Rather, he has assumed that he knows what is best for Gwindor and for himself better than Orodreth does. This would of course be an entirely reasonable thing to believe, except that Orodreth has the benefit of foresight and deep insight plus centuries more experience with real life. Túrin knows that Orodreth has foresight, and he should understand that Orodreth only wants the best for him: therefore he should be taking any prediction Orodreth makes as fact, unless told otherwise. But I think that he convinced himself when he was very young that Beleg was the only one who wanted the best for him: which is a kind of arrogance really.