Do champions counter trash units?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 พ.ค. 2021
- Do champions always counter trash units (halbs, skirms, hussars)? What about other trash units like Persian crossbows and Magyar Huszars? It turns out, it's a bit complicated.
0:15 The trash unit triangle
0:50 Does the champion counter halberdiers?
5:20 Does the champion counter hussars?
7:30 Does the champion counter elite skirmishers?
9:18 Champion vs Malay two-handed swordsmen
10:10 Champion vs Magyar huszar
11:02 Champion vs Persian crossbow with kamandaran
12:02 Champion vs genitour
12:40 My conclusions
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Game: Age of Empires II Definitive Edition - เกม
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Teutonic Knights are the ultimate trash killer, they just have to catch them first...
We'll get them!... Eventually
The idea is to get them in the wall, what is more common when your enemy can't micro their units all day long (always the case in late game). I found some of this the other day in a 3v3 match when I was killing tons of units with my TK + trash uniits agaist pure trash.
Just get some rams to use as cars! xD
I love the Teutons and that is one of my favorite strats with them. Vroom vroom
Teutonic Knights + Siege towers = the Teutonic Ferrari
@@theprovost Teutonic Porsche makes more sense actually ;)
When the Champion gets a "pay food instead of gold" Bonus:
"You were supposed to defeat the trash, not join it!"
You've become the very thing you have sworn to destroy!
I made this Civ with Japanese Attack Speed and Goth discount. But AoE won't let me upload it for some bizarre reason.
Teutonic knight wouldn't even notice
"Wait you weren't a trash unit before?"
Champion: Then I shall use the trash to destroy the trash
I love the star wars reference ;)
“80 farm hussar beats everything” - Hera
"Civs that have hussar are A+, civs without hussar are F-"
-hera
@@tvremote9394 Also Hera: Magyars D tier
@@tvremote9394 Also Hera: Chinese S tier
Goths: Why hello there!
@@tvremote9394 *Koreans and Ethiopians start laughing at Chinese and Malians*
I like how all the patreon names were totally benign and then you just slid "Ilicktoesatnight" in there like it was no different than "Brian"
I can't be the only one who always envisions the champion as a preppy dude with a sweater tied around his neck as if he's going to play some casual golf with his buddies?
yes
You probably are. But I love the imagination
I was actually thinking American football-style jersey and shoulderpads.
Totally!
By reading your comment I just realized that ive had that image of the preppy dude champion in my head for decades, but didnt know!
You can also just sprinkle a few pikemen with your champions and they will ram through the hussars. You already have the buildings and the blacksmith upgrades.
Malay: Allow myself to introduce... myself.
Sidenote: The two-handed swordsmen have some crazy expressive animations.
Two-handed swordsmen also look cooler than Champions, so there really isn't any downside with the Malay
i read your comment in scruffy's voice
What do you know, the Malay are really good in a melee.
I'll see myself out.
Only two things scare me, and one is goldless two handed swordsmen.
@@RedShocktrooperRST but... Its not pronounced that way though
I hope people dont conclude from this that Hussars actually counter champions in low gold situations because the champ player can easily add pikes from the same building champs are made.
And the same upgrades from the blacksmith
yep
I clicked this video quicker than a mongolian siege ram
tbh....thats still pretty slow. even mongolian siege ram is just a ram
Ha weak, i clicked faster than a mongolian siege tower with infantry
Weak, I’m playing 256x mod. Just give me some time to train up villagers, go research my age advances, build a castle, and spend the next year researching drill while strip mining and clear cutting the land
@Edu you've never heard about the Teuton ferrari?
@@nvmtt1403 The Mongolian siege ram is as fast as a Dark Age scout, iirc.
Edit to add: if it is fully loaded with infantry, of course.
'Whether the aesthetic of the Champion actually works with our civilisations colour' 😂 man knows
I was with you until the final 30 seconds. You only looked at individual champions in that section, but if you had taken the time to look at groups of say 25+, or terrain variations, overall army composition, or unit voices per civ, then your conclusion would have been much different. Please amend this in a follow up video
Yeah, that part was too rushed in retrospect. Purple or yellow champions can be good sometimes - they're just more situational.
Patron detected
Orange sucks in general
@@furkansaryerli tell that to the Irish in 1690
@@furkansaryerli I don't hate Orange in general. It is just too difficult to see on mini map. 11
*"I'm the Trash Man! I come out, I throw trash all over the- all over the ring! And then I start eatin' garbage! And then I pick up the trash can, and I bash the guy on the head."* _-The Champions, probably_
Always love when SotL is using all kinds of calculations to figure out whether they're useful or not. And they said math is not useful xD
I wanna see how many people will get that reference ;)
Math is always useful.
Elite Eagle Warriors: Ahyaaahhhyaaaahhhyyyaaaahhh we're the birds of war now! Don't you mess with our eggs! Caw Caw Pigeon boys Caw!
@@IllyrianTiger99 I just watched that episode last night, lol.
@Emperor AlHasan it's a reference to It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia
I'd reccomend that you start watching it( of course if you are into dark humour that is)
I haven't played in two years now, since the birth of my son, but I'm still getting all the new patches and expansions, and most importantly - devouring each new video from spirit of the law.. Preparing, plotting for my long prophesied return to Arabia.. And what a glorious return it will be
How disappointing would it be if you were to lose your very first match 😅😁
@@Aynshtaynn Statistics say he will.
You missed the 2 golden years of aoe !! You will meet many more sub1k elo masterpizzas !!!
Would like to hear how ya stomped your first few opponents mate :)
The other benefit of champs is their replacement of siege. Arson champs bring down buildings very fast. So perhaps gold savings from not needing as much siege can be counted.
"Sire, we cannot afford to field champions!"
"What? Why not?"
"We are orange, sire! They would look terrible!"
Lmao, tbh purple be the best
@@bradeye1133 Purple's actually my favorite color, yeah. XD
"What will be worse, Soldier:
Wearing orange the rest of your life - or being killed by someone wearing orange for the rest of their life?"
Orange is for Aztecs. Monks look great in those saffron robes.
And of course Aztecs come with champions, so...
I got used to be orange when playing mongols because of the campaign...
Could you imagine if it was on an actual battle field and a guy with 30 javelins in him came running at you, not gonna lie I wouldn’t fight I would run FAST
Happened in the crusades with the muslim bows not being able to penetrate crusader chainmail + padding beneath. The crusaders had dozens of arrows sticking in them but kept advancing, because the arrowheads just got stuck in their armor without going down into their bodies.
@@JarlFrank Oh wow, that is terrifying lol. When and which battle, if you remember it? :)
@@varunmanjunath9123 There are mentions of it in various chronicles. This is from the memoirs of Lord of Joinville:
"and whilst the Turks were fleeing before him, they (who shoot as well backwards as forwards) would cover him with darts. When he had driven them out of the village, he would pick out the darts that were sticking all over him; and put on his coat-of-arms again... Then, turning round, and seeing that the Turks had come in at the other end of the street, he would charge them again, sword in hand, and drive them out. And this he did about three times in the manner I have described."
The muslim chronicler Baha al-Din describes the crusaders such:
"drawn up in front of the cavalry, stood firm as a wall, and every foot-soldier wore a vest of thick felt and a coat of mail so dense and strong that our arrows made no impression on them... I saw some with from one to ten arrows sticking in them, and still advancing at their ordinary pace without leaving the ranks."
Got it from this article about the protectiveness of mail: myarmoury.com/feature_mail.html
@@JarlFrank Ok, this is legendary. Thanks for the detailed references! :D
As a viking fan, I would find it interesting to know how chieftains champions do against hussars. My gut feeling says they are extremely versatile unit that feels safe to patrol into any army that doesn't have arbalest or close to even number of heavy cavalry.
Add to that the extra HP and we may be looking at one of the best champions when it comes to antitrash
I would love to see even a short follow up video on this topic. I don't play vikings often, but I did the other day and chieftains made them feel way more effective against cav, which I know is the point, but I'd like to know by *how much*, SOTL-style
@@Paintplayer1 does chieftain effect the spearman?
It's easy. Think your viking champion with +8 instead of +4 when facing cavalry. In other words, they become aztec champions with keeping their hp when facing cavalry. The best champions in the game to counter paladins too, you won't go wrong if you massive champions in order to counter any cav civ
Yeah, and how about gargland wars jaggos?
Actually the role of the champion is to counter Camels and Eagles too. The latter is pretty obvious, but people forget the former.
My Tatar Enemy was making Heavy Camels and Elite Skirmishers, so I switched to my Lithuanian Champions and he was bamboozled having no answer to my single unit composition.
Tbh says more about your level than your enemies. Tatars have great answers to Champions in arbs or particularly HCA
A Tatar player, making Heavy Camels and Skirms?
He already lost
@@johnmcdonald736 tatars don't have arbs, and I already crushed his Hussars and HCA with my Paladins
@@sauravtripathi4128 But they have HC.
But how they managed to lose their camels while you fielded paladin is a world mystery I guess
@@Bloodark124 oh no, he killed my Paladins with Camels. After which I switched to Champions.
Yeah, he didn't use HC, weird!
My interpretation is that the transition to trash units usually occurs before gold completely runs out, which would give a timing window for champions to be strong, provided you can make the switch, and that if you have a couple of relics, mixing in a few champions isn't the worst use of that gold.
Glad you adressed the important Fashion of Empires meta at the end, it's really under represented. I don't fully agree with the verdict, but if it gets the conversation going, it's good.
Kudos to SotL for saying that last patron's name without altering his tempo.
Also, SotL should reach out to the Metatron to do a Sicilian's history review, given Metatron's latest video features AoE2 Sicilians.
Did not notice that the first time!
At the end of the video, I was expecting to hear "We are the champions my friends..."
Probably copyright stopped it
"We keep on fighting to the end!"
Pro tip: stay at Long Swordsmen. They look cooler.
Actually I wish they have unique skins for units in each of the civs' subtypes just like buildings, but then some units needs to be renamed
I somehow can't get enough of the HD-Pictures of the untis
"Do I have access to a cooler looking unit?"
That's where Malay two-handed trashmen _really_ have the edge.
SOTL: “the champion and halberdier share basically equal resources after...”
T90: “SSSSUUUPPPPPLLLLIIIEEEESSSSSSSS”
This channel is like a drug. And I'm addicted.
I don't even play AOE2 and I love watching this guy. His videos are so chill and calming, oh ye and quite mathsy
Does spirit of the law ever do a tree hp video?
Yes , it'll come just after the supremecy movie and it'll be 40 mind long .
@@ateium2409 how long till the supremacy movie is realesed?
@@jorgeuribe8890 Yes
@@jorgeuribe8890 25 years i guess .
good video like always!
I thought this was a good analysis but bringing the aesthetic question into it really pushed this well into excellent territory. Thank you for your insights.
This one was really nice! Pretty hard work! Good job!
14:03 "I lick toes at night" lol
It's ok. That's a cat
That one wasn't actually the name of one of his patrons, it was just a confession he slipped in there.
@@sidarthurgortimer355 yup
He's actually paying to hear SotL say it
vs hussar I think it would be nice to see how different ratios of champ/halb or champ/pike perform cost wise
since mixing in a few pikes/halbs makes them MUCH better vs hussar, but without insane micro it doesn't have too big a detriment in the other 2 matchups
i really hope for a video of that
I'm loving how "favorite color/cooler looking unique unit" is becoming a staple metric for this channel.
I'd love to see a video about how you prefer to lay out your military buildings in your base and your thinking behind it
REEEEE Spirit dunking on the Royal Purple. My champs deserve to look like champions. I'm glad that you took a more in depth look at this topic, "champions are trash killers" never totally sat well with me, especially against hussars.
SOTL has been made an enemy of the viewers this day.
Your videos are so much informative even small things are explained. Well done. I like you voice too. Keep it up!
Wow. That's a great video! Learned a lot.
We need a video calculating when to do each of the eco upgrades with the new Burgundian bonuses.
Keep up the great work!
wow this might be your best video yet
Love the color considerations at the end. Makes the vid.
How long it takes to convert a Sicilians Light Cavalry with First Crusade and Faith researched and they have a Teutons ally?
long enough for the lcav to kill your monk.
Ty for video!! Appreciate ya !!
13:50
This is the kind of analysis I like to see. Fantastic.
Hahaha when the 3 x’s come up when he says color - hilarious ending! Love your work
This was the best counter video you done so far. Love it. I always missed this comparison with the scenario were you are creating the units. And is nice to see also the fights being done agaist 1/2 he biggest army and then the other half come along some time after (or with 1/3 at a time, or 1/4, there are many scenarios that would be nice to see). Maybe we could play with some graphs like that, even with the same unit composition just for the base line and then with other units. Teuton knights in the scenario are awesome (I tryied with friends other day) since they rock with little numbers.
One observation:
The Champion vs Hussar comparison is a bit odd since you always can make the pike line in the exact same buildind, but since you can have the champions already trained (or even you want to fight hussar with halberdier mixed-in), the data still usefull overall.
Man would be nice compare champz vs teuton halb(+2 melee armor) and slav halb(druzina)
Something to remember: not every civ has fully upgraded Champions and not every civ has fully upgraded trash, the tests vary even more depends on what you have and what you're facing. But using this Video numbers you should usually be able to figure it out for yourself.
Good point. And the effects can be big. For example, if your civ lacks the final infantry armor upgrade, your Champions take twice the damage from FU Skirmishers. I wonder how the test against skirms would look like in that situation.
@@martijnbouman8874 I dunno about skirms, but missing plate mail leads champions to lose to hussars 1 on 1. I remember this distinctly from a test by MikeEmpires with Goth champions and it really started getting me to question the usual advice of training champs as trash killers.
13:47 I'm glad you brought this up. Too many analyses completely ignore this factor.
I think the value for Champion against Hussar isn’t in raw numbers, but being a soak that utilizes the same production and upgrades as Halberds, so that the frail halberds have more time to do their work without getting as shredded by skirms.
The big thing you didn't cover was upgrades. In the qualifiers for Hidden Cup 2, Fire faced Jordan in a Hideout game where he had 5 relics and an overwhelming gold advantage after having mined out a huge amount of Jordan's gold, but Jordan was able to push back with full trash and siege rams. Fire tried teching into champions to stop the trash push, but unfortunately, as Indians his champions missed the plate mail armor technology, reducing their pierce armor from 5 to 3. As a result, Jordan's Chinese elite skirmishers did 4 damage a hit instead of 2, allowing them to mow down the champions with ease. Seemingly small differences in the tech tree can overturn these dynamics really easily.
wow why the dunk on the purple champions! they look great!
@ 13:51 THAT is the jewel 💎 of the video right there, Mr SoTL !!! 🤣🤣🤣
Seriously though, another superb display of research and insight into this incredibly complex and amazing game! 👍👍👍
M 🦘🏏😎
LOL! I love the ending.
I would like to comment. Thanks for the video, I actually needed something like that since I love the fact of using champions in order to help cavalry or elephants when facing enemy halbadiers, this video really helped me out. But I wanted to point out 2 things. The first thing is that there's 1 Militia-line civ that counters roughly all the trash units on the game (maybe the genitor and the xbow not rlly, still really matched) and this one is the bulgarian. It's really true, this requires Bagains and it's a IMP tech, still, it's the best solution for any of the trash units even further, and no matchup for any other generic champion. I'd like to consider that Malay and Bulgarian 2-h swordman is much better than generic champions, or even better than the best champions at cost of their being really specific (no gold or so much armor). Also, the only unit that can counter trash units are champions. Unique units (except huskarle, tarkan, konnik and Serjant) are made in castle. Those others are not only made in castle but you won't really use any of them (maybe except serjant) because they are not cost effective on the long way. If you rather want to go samurai because it's cooler, attacks faster and moves faster, it's good, but the gold difference will become and edge. Being outnumbered and not just by resources it's also a thing to consider when playing against masive trash units, this is the hidden powerspike that trash units have and you confirmed it on ur videos. Unless you are bulgarian, you can't beat those halbadiers at once with 40 champions. So it answers the question: Yes, they counter trash units, but they are the most effective to counter them too. And yes, Teutonic knights are countered by running away and reach their eco before they reach yours hahaha.
We need the same video, this time with winged hussars :D
I would love to see an updated version with the Dawn of The Dukes units included.
Also I consider champions because of their +6 bonus damage vs buildings (4 native +2 from Arson tech) so that when you defeat their trashy asses, you take down their buildings.
The fact that the archer-line costs gold in AoE2 always confuses me as an AoE3 player.
(context: In AoE3 all archaic infantry or native units cost food&wood while gunpowder units cost coin).
In AoE 1 bowmen only cost wood and food, but improved/composite bowmen cost gold.
I have no idea about the other 2 games, but ranged unit in this game often dominates the battlefield. Archer line in particular is very opressing, the combination of their range, damage, rate of fire, firing delay, and easy to mass up from early age, made them easily the strongest unit in the game. Perhaps that's why they also come with hefty gold cost at 45 gold each.
@Anthony Edelmann
Not really? There are technically no trash units in AoE3 because coin is just as infinite as food. Collection rates from natural sources are (without the final market upgrade in Fortress Age) even faster than wood. There may be a lack of coin in late Fortress/early industrial if the natural sources ran out because the final upgrades for infinite gold are only unlocked in the latter. That's temporary though, both in Age2 and Age4 gold and wood are of similar value/depends on the map.
Skirmishers tend to be superior due to the higher bonus damage against heavy infantry. AoE3 Crossbowmen are basically redundant after Age2 because they lack bonus damage AND are outranged by Skirmishers, Japanese Yumi can reach the same range with a card and can still be useful assuming you don't get access to skirmishers by other means. British Longbows actually outrange skirmishers, even more with the card. Still not perfect, but if a French, German or Portuguese player spams great Skirmishers you better use them than musketeers.
@@CrnaStrela
Ao3 can't balance with ressources, all 3 are kind of equal (rather depends on the map tbh). To compensate, the unit rock-paper-sissor is more complicated. You have the basic Infantry beats Cavalry beats Artillery beats Infantry, but there's also very important anti-infantry-infantry, anti-cavalry, cavalry, anti artillery-artillery.
Or, to keep it short, if you sort them by what they counter and what counters them, there are 4-5 types of infantry, 2-3 types of cavalry and 3-4 types of artillery. Plus a few weird exceptions.
@Anthony Edelmann
Depends. Archers actually have better base damage, but worse multipliers against heavy infantry (same with mounted archers Vs cavalry compared to dragoons). You can improve them even further with the counter infantry tech.
What's better: Vs ranged cavalry and other ranged infantry: Archers
Vs. musketeers, pikemen and halberd and similar units: Skirmishers
TLDR: Archers are more well rounded, Skirmishers are far harder counters against their usual targets
Saracens get surprisingly good post gold champs due to their market bonus!
Please make a video on how the Teutonic melee armor bonus impacts matchups, especially for how it affects halberdier and champion matchups!
Just an idea to level the videos up even more. Once you do a few video with the added layer of population, looking at whether or not a 120 vill eco could actually sustain that production of both sides would be interesting. Adjusting based on unit would be nice as well, e.g. cheaper unit needs less vill thus bigger army. Thanks for all the info, I hope this doesn't come off as demanding, just an idea to make more videos should you struggle for video ideas in the future.
I'm disappointed that you didn't show us how the Guilds technology impacts the match-ups. Does the improved exchange rate significantly improve the champion against trash units? By how much? How many champions would one need to make in order for the technology to pay for itself?
Im expecting one day for SOTL to start a video and then in the middle say "But first, lets talk about parallel universes"
13:46 - Crosses out the colors I like best D:
'No purple champions' And here I thought you had good tastes!
nice video :)
Love Spirit
I think the persian thrash bow is a great non gold intensive way to support your paladins (or elephants if that's your kink) against spears
I had almost this exact situation. I was Bohemians vs Byzantines on Arena and he just threw loads of cheap trash against me, I went champion (eventually, was 2 handed sword a while) and halb against his halb and skirm and eventually won even with him out booming me to an absurd degree, though at first he took my base with a castle drop, but I was able to reboom and win.
I had to sell wood for gold. And noticed what you describe in this video where when I was outnumbered I would lose but when I could take fights where the swordsmen could surround it would work in the long run. And because I mixed halbs I was able to deal with the cheap halbs pretty well.
I agree with the last note, the color is the most important factor
From the creators of Fashion Souls it comes Age of Style.
Also For Fashion (for honor)
I think the biggest problem of the Champion as a trash killer is how expensive (and time-consuming) the tech is, if you haven't invested in it until the end. It is the longest tech-line in the game, so worst case scenario you have to make four techs until you have the unit you want
I keep wanting to use swordsmen but this is one major issue. You don't tech into swordsmen, too much delay, too many upgrades.
I only miss the advice to save your gold for siege in trash wars. As you need it anyways to kill your enemy (except you have great success with hussar raids).
And the conclusion that champs are a great trash counter in the lategame, but not necessarily in trash wars (except you have a big gold advantage like 4:1 relics or so).
Video suggestion: which military creation sound is better? AoE1 or AoE2...
Answer: AoE3 :)
God damm, that grey champion looks great. Probably the best unit if you are playing with that color.
Nice! Can we do Melee Units 1v1 comparison? Champs vs Woads vs Samurai vs Teutonic Vs Karambit vs Jaguar vs Elite Eagles vs Shotels vs Flemish Militia vs Huskarls vs any other infantry I forgetting, not ranged ones like Axemen though
Im glad SOTL finally factures in the most important aspect of a unit: Its Style
The constant production of halberdiers vs a initial amount of champions scenario was analyzed, but what about constant production of each one? in the limit population scenario
That test would simulate a real game scenario where neither player is actually pop capped yet, so the Halberdiers would win as they would consistently have 3x the numbers. You gotta build up your mass of champs to get the advantage from the popcap.
pro players tend to do a "fish" farm formation around the tc. Do a video analysing this technique. I think the "fish swimming to the right" formation takes advantage of the minuscule boost to putting more farms to the left of the dropoff building
Please do a Genetior pros and cons video
3:30 Even more, assuming bothsides have no army, same amiunt of buildings, and looking at both units's training time, the halbadeer never gets to his critical mass that he needs to beat the champion.
You cant outproduce champions with halbadeers.
Only, you can make halbadeers for longer.
Which as we just saw, loose if they dont bring their full numbers advantage to bear right away.
It would be cool to see how infantry UU units stack up compared to champions in the trash counter role.
Because im sure certain infantry UU like kamyuk and berserk would do even better.
I think you should take a look at what defines a "counter". There are a bunch of options: Is it a unit that beats another unit easily? Is it a unit that nullifies the usefulness of another unit? Is it a unit that is cost effective against another unit? Is it a unit that is population effective against another unit?
I remember gold mine's AI will mass halbs when the player take control of the middle mine. And I have lost a battle that I use champions to counter the mass halbs. That could be a great testing area.
I always preferred the men at arms and 2 handed swordsmen look so much I wouldn't upgrade my militia line when I was younger.
I also preferred Pikemen so I tended to use them.
I was really bad.
This is why you always mix some halbs in with champs.
Need to factor in that wood gathers much faster than food (like 50% faster). Makes a big difference to scouts.
4.55 you should also needed to test slav halberdiers, since druzhina is an effective tech against all units
A good trick in endless 1v1 games is trash wars is to save some gold and make 40 champions to create a snowball and get momentum. Also works even better with teutonic knights or throwing axemen
It would have been intresting to see how the fare in combination with trash units, when both player build trash units but one sprinkels in some Champions.
Objection!
Purple Champions look cool.
Hi. Can you do a comparative efficiency of siege units ? Like if you have 20 champions on both sides is it more interesting to add onager/scorpions or just more champions ? You're doing amazing videos.
The aesthetic argument is the real important one here, straight up guys
07:18 Thing is that if you have trade and the opponent doesn't, you basically won anyway and could be spamming knights into halbs too and would still win.
can we please have another video on top 5 civ after nerfs and buffs
When are we getting the Top 5 Navy Civilizations?
*ITALIANS*
Portuguese
Vikings
Fill the rest
Italians
Vikings
Portuguese
Saracens
Spanish
Honorable
Malay, Koreans, Byzantine, Sicilian, Turks
@@TheKobasen exactly
I like the responses but I want the video essay format of Spirit of the Law.
@@seculartemplar5407 we all do
How about a video on unit deaths back then vs DE. Remember when units turned into carcasses and skeletons while DE toned it down?
This may be why the supplies tech was introduced