You see. The trick is to take that big battery to someone else home to recharge or at work so its getting charged up for free during the low cost times.
When I was a poor student I used to charge a similar contraption that I DIYed on the train (there are sockets there), so I could save on the power bill
@@BryanTorokwell if you are business is going to get upset over you charging 13 cents of electricity, then you probably don't want to be working there anyway. And that's what 1,000 Watts cost. That's about 20 lb. Now if you're rolling 45 lb of batteries into work to get 39 cents worth of electricity 5 days a week.. Well the same thing really applies.
It may not save you money on energy cost, but if there's a power outage it'll still save you the cost of replacing the food... which I've had to do 3x in the last 5 months.
So this is my use case. I have a 1 KW hour battery that will keep the refrigerator and freezer going until the next day after the disaster when I can start up my propane generator. I have enough solar panels to charge about 900 watts per day. That's enough to run the refrigerator 1 hour per 3 hours and keep it going for about 12 hours. Or to charge my devices or to keep a small fan going or to keep a small massage table pad going or to provide light in areas away from the lights I have plugged into my generator. I use propane because there's almost no maintenance and the tank of propane will stay good indefinitely.
Oh yes and twice this year it has saved me at least $200 worth of food. I can also charged the battery at my house and then take it over to a friend's house who has lost power and give them power for their refrigerator or freezer.
@@rogerwilco2 areas that get severe thunderstorms, derechos, tornados, and hurricanes, and ice storms, really bad floods (8 ft plus) So basically places that are within 100 mi from the coast, tornado alley, near rivers, the lee side of mountain ranges, areas that have seen rapid population growth, areas that see forest fires, areas with long transmission lines from power generation sites. It's actually more where is this remarkable place you live that doesn't meet one of those criteria.
One thing you didn't realize is probably the power loss by converting the energy from AC to DC and then DC to AC. That's why in some scenarios this setup up does not make sense at all. There's also power loss from just the battery charging itself, so there's enough inefficiencies there. Plus, one of the worst items to test this on is a fridge because they already run pretty lean and low on power once it's up an running with enough thermal mass inside. This would have been better to test on things that consume significantly more power ~100W or more and have to stay on all the time. Your fridge not only consumes less than that when running, but also does not run full tilt all the time.
The thing you're not seeing is that the grid power is far less efficient at peak time. In some cases as much as half the efficiency.The grid has to start up generators to cover the extra load usually CCGT plants, but CCGT have about half the efficiency for the first hour or two. The grid operators are actually installing huge grid batteries to handle this, the big brother of this box.
Unfortunately, the fridge is about as good as it gets for running on rechargeable battery power. Heavier loads will overload the battery circuits, and higher kWH means paying more for higher capacity batteries. What you'd really want this for is a heat pump, but that's also the hardest and most expensive to run on a personal grid. The economics just don't make sense on a single-household scale. Say you run 1500w worth of appliances, peak-shaving five hours per day: even if you're saving 50c per kWH by peak-shaving, that's only saving you $3.75/day. It'd take easily half a decade to recoup the cost of the setup, before you even start to consider battery degradation. Same issue with personal-scale solar. You just can't beat the economies of scale (and government subsidy) that utilities benefit from. It's cool tech, and I hope it improves. Right now, the cost doesn't make sense unless you're a hobbyist or have unreliable power. When you take into account the environmental impact of battery production, it's hard to even claim it's better for the environment than improving efficiency of existing power grids.
@@FionSus A lot of grids have off-peak pricing. With a combination of off-peak pricing and solar and the efficiencies of heat pumps, you can slash your bills and pay back the system long before the battery wears out. The other thing is that you're not paying for transmission of your solar power, so personal solar works REALLY great.
I have outsmarted the homeowners association normally they give you fines if your grass is tall but with this simple trick (cuts grass) you don't have to worry about that
I tested such power station, and conversion efficiency is ~80% (it's the top value for the good power stations). So you loose 20% energy converting AC to DC, then you loose another 20% converting back. So you end up with 64Wh for every 100Wh you put into the power station. Totally unfeasible especially if you take into consideration the cost of power station itself.
So it looks like this is not really worth it to do, however, if you could somehow wire the power station up to charge by solar, then it probably would make sense.
On the scale of a single refridgerator, the answer is no it's not worth it. But more efficient equipment on a whole house system is a different question. You also have the added benefit of having a backup for when the electricity goes out.
Solar is the way to recharge and get it off the grid entirely or at least getting the bulk of the energy via solar. A 200w panel on this fridge would change that spread sheet entirely. 200 watt panels are about $100 right now
You're not outsmarting the power company. They offer lower rates at off-peak times to ENCOURAGE exactly what you're doing. A WIN-WIN if you think about it.
Power company’s run off of a theory of running at the bare minimum keeping profits. When a natural disaster hits that day they have no money so the state/government helps to pay to rebuild. It’s a genius business model honestly.
I have this Anker C800 as well. Be careful with it when the battery depletes, when you start charging it again it does NOT return power to the AC plugs. You have to manually turn the inverter on.
Anytime you invert AC to DC or DC to AC you will lose energy! Plus the Power Station uses energy itself just to be ON! My peak 4-8PM is 37 cents and Midnight - 6AM is 2.2 cents.
Here in NL this feature is standard if you have a home battery. Here you can get a "dynamic" contract with prices defined per hour. But those are available one day ahead. So you need a smart component to save €€, based on if you buy the power for the grid or take it from the solar panels. If you do it right you can save like 30-50% of you energy bill. And that without solar power (Winter/clouds ). And calculate the loss of loading and discharging the battery. Depending on the inverter quality it can be between 85%-95% so you need to add a 10% loss in your calculation.
The problem is the Power stations idle power usage. To get the most out of the cheaper power price, you would want to run multiple things during the increase $ time block as long as the power stations capacity is enough to run everything without needing charging during that time. Some people with get multiple smaller power stations - one for the fridge, one for router, computer, tv etc. The problem is each power station is using 1- 3% of its battery capacity per hour just being on. Having 3 power stations would be using %6 per hour VS 1 power station just using 2% per hour.
3% on a 1kWh power station is 30w, no shot it uses that much. my 4kW high frequency inverter uses 10w idle, im going to assume its more around the less than to equal to 1%
@@grindychum can you link me where it says that? normally idle power draw is measured in w not percentages, so im curious in seeing it as ive googled and i havent even found a mention of idle usage.
forgive me if im blind, this is all that ive found E1500LFP SPECIFICATIONS: Brand: PECRON Power: 2200W Battery Capacity: 1536Wh(51.2V/30Ah) Battery Type: LiFePO4 (3500+ Cycles to 80%) Smart App Control: Bluetooth and WiFi Battery Expansion: Yes AC Input: 100Vac~120Vac/15A Max/1400W Solar Input: Voc 12V~18V/100W Max/7A Max;Voc 32V~95V/700W Max/15A Max Car Input: DC 12V~18V-100W Max AC Output: 100~120Vac/50/60Hz/2200Watts DC Output: 1x12V/30A;1x12V/10A;1x12V DC5525;2xUSB-C;4xUSB-A;1xWireless Charging Pad USB Output: 1x100W PD,5x18W Wireless Charging Pad: 15W Max. UPS Power: 100-120Vac/15A Max. Charging time: 1.5 Hours Charge Temperature: 0°C~45°C/32°F-113°F Discharge Temperature: -20°C~45°C/-4°F-113°F Weight: About 18KG/About 39.7lbs Dimensions: L377xW237xH305mm;L14.8xW9.3xH12in
Also part of the problem is you are running something small like the fridge? If you want to make a dent in your power bill during the summer figure out how to run all the A. C. That the house needs? But it will still cost you a ton of money. But that is what I wish I could run and save money the A. C.
Btw, I take a similar approach with a Jackery. But instead I plug appliance that’s always on (modem, WiFi). I charge it at the lower rate hours 10pm to 5am. Then turn off the switch during daytime (more expensive)
i did the same test on my fridge. SCE tou prime rates. pretty much just broke even. but, if one was to do that they would have a back up on their fridge for when a power outage might happen. the reason it doesn't work for a fridge is because the inverter has to stay on constantly. i moved it to my dishwasher and - with a smart plug - it only charges and passes electricity through from the grid during lower cost times. it uses the battery when the costs are higher. the difference is that we turn on the ac outlet of the solar generator manually every time we use it instead of leaving the inverter on constantly and it is programmed to turn off the inverter automatically after 30 minutes of non use. we used to only run the dishwasher when the rates were low, but my wife wanted to be able to use it whenever she wants and this allows us to do that without using higher cost energy. it is slightly higher because of conversion losses and idle battery drain but the convenience is worth it to us. we didn't buy the thing to try and save money on tou rates but wanted something to run our fridge in case of power outage and use as portable energy source. this way, though, it doesn't just sit around waiting to be used once a year for a 2 hr. power outage but, instead gets used regularly which is better for the battery health.
Yes. Because the fridge only draws 55 watts, the savings from shifting the demand is small, and doesn't pay for the power station. If you had a plugin device that drew hundreds of watts, your savings would be much larger and the payback period would be reasonable.
That'd work. It's basically what a whole-home battery backup does, but on a smaller scale. You don't actually need to have solar panels to use something like a Telsa power wall.
This is cool but doesnt seem practical. The cost of just one of those things offsets any price loss from the power company over months of use-age. Let alone having to buy multiple for different places in the house that use the most power.
It might actually be practical for him to do this if he lives in the high price area where that would save him 21 cents a day? If he were to run five equivalent loads off of that device assuming he would still get 5 hours of runtime that's $1 per day or $365 per year The ROI is 2 years That's actually not bad that's a really good ROI in fact His problem is he's only running the fridge on it he needs to also plug the freezer into it and a few other things into it
There is also an additional benefit depending on where you live so if you have poor power where you live if you could break even with an ROI on the box itself then basically you have a free UPS which is very nice when the power goes out or in my case where the power flickers surges and browns an awful lot like literally daily I have 14 UPSs in my house just because otherwise the power would fry all my stuff The core problem is if you maximize the box your ROI is two or three years which is really not bad The question is will that box last 3 years? The battery yes if it's a lithium-iron phosphate battery that battery will last 10 or 15 years The problem is the electronics in the box itself the inverter of the cooling system the BMS will those last typically these boxes really aren't made for continuous duty cycle and those components aren't the best quality components My EB3A boxes are very nice except the damn cooling fan always fails on them
I'm not going to read all the comments to see if someone mentioned this, but the fridge does not use constant power. The compressor motor cycles making the wattage vary drastically. You need to use a device that keeps a constant wattage, so as a light bulb.
A good ROI calculation would also involve the MTBF of the added components and the effect of the added heat generated by the power unit (typically bad because of the need to cool the area where the power unit is kept).
Uninterrupted backup power has been around for many years for computers. My power company does not charge more for peak hour usage, but this setup might eventually save you a few bucks once its initial cost has been paid off.
That's not out smarting the power company, hold my beer. I purchased a sub $25K Chinese EV with V2L. I charge at night 20kwh for FREE, 7am switch on V2L via a change over switch, use about 7kwh from 20kwh of car battery night charge, use 13kwh for car journeys during day, and repeat. I am retired and live in New Zealand. I save about $800 on electricity, and $3,000 on fuel and vehicle maintenance. Note fuel here is $7 a US gallon.
How do you get electricity to charge your car for free? Is that some sort of government subsidy to encourage EV use? As for the charging, what voltage and current do you need to power the charger.
Enjoyed the video. I considered this test but our electricity is pretty low to where you live. It would be interesting to see the increase in savings if you used solar panels to recharge your anker unit vs using grid power. If you are using grid power either way during peak and non peak times, you still are using grid power , so 1kw of grid power to charge unit vs 1kw of solar power to charge unit, for example.
Rather than trying to time the exact peak hours, perhaps run the max on battery, only charging during off peak times. If it only takes 2 hours to charge, 8 to 10 hours off-grid should be beneficial. I like your approach and I have both the Anker C1000 and smart plugs as well as Kasa control over the plug. I have to interface the Bluetooth reading of the battery feedback and intelligently control the plug. Thanks for the project ideas!!!
If you're running solar power this might make sense otherwise it doesn't because the more you deplete the battery the more you're cycling the battery and the faster you're wearing the battery out so you're better off only using battery power when you absolutely have to
@vadnegru it all comes down to the Delta between your own peeking off peak power costs Yes you're going to use more power by time shifting your electrical usage but the purpose of time shifting is not the safe powers to save money That's what you have to calculate
I've wondered about this for EV chargers. Our utility gives us rebates for each KWh used by our smart EV charger during off-peak times. But ultimately home EV chargers are pretty dumb with a basic protocol to communicate and agree on amperage for charging. The is no reason I don't think, that you couldn't make nearly any 240v device run off of a adequately sized home charger.
I did the same thing with the C1000 and a smart plug running my office computers. I then added one, then two, and now 6 100w solar panels. My C1000 is now only connected to AC power from 11pm to 4am. Does it pay for itself? Probably not in my lifetime but I don't pay peak prices and (at least try to) stay under my baseline allowance because PG&E finds a way to charge you more anyway they can...
Its common in many EU countries like Czech, Hungary, Poland, Germany etc. In Poland they had whole gov programme that they gave you back % of your house modernization process. By that I mean getting PV and magazines to store excess production from it. They even had a option that the your electrecity provider would store your production from EV and give it back to You instead of selling it to You
And exactly what would that accomplish? Power companies do not have unlimited electrical capacity. They can, and will, meet demand when they can. But at a certain level, they either don't have the electricity to give or they are limited by the infrastructure to carry that electricity.
@@zsi You might want to rethink your opinion after researching the truth of what PG&E (for example) has done and not done to control the availability and price of electricity.
@@graphguyBay Area cities that don't use PG&E, like Palo Alto and Santa Clara have electricity prices that are 1/3 (or less) of PG&E's peak pricing. It's crazy. When I lived in Palo Alto a few years ago, electricity was around $0.16/kWh flat rate (no peak and off-peak periods). Unfortunately I'm in PG&E territory now, but I've got a solar system with NEM 2.0, so PG&E are paying me :)
@@Daniel15au yup we are on Roseville power - 30% less than the PGE. Congrats on solar - the issue I have is it is not really owned by you. You have to tie into their system.
Some power stations have the grid control included in the controls available through the app. Only saves on the smart plug, but ir you already have the power station for other reasons, you only have to save on the power cost arbitrage.
As a couple of other folks pointed out you need to stack benefits, like avoided food spoilage. But when my area had time of use rates the more effective savings were actions like time-shifting your energy use, like washing clothes, dishes, and bodies (Showers) after the price drops back down for water heating, cloths drying, etc. (If you do this without electric interlocks using hot water right before the price goes up could result in reheating your hot water tank at the higher prices). And looking at ways to make similar shifts in other large energy-use activities, like air-conditioning, dehumidification, cooking, … .
I like how this video is showing the power used by the Anker unit itself and how that changes the outcome. However, one could use a power converter that has a rating a little more than the refrigerator itself and that would change the outcome because the power used by the power converter now will not change the overall outcome as a larger power converter. Of course, one could always use solar and larger battery to reduce how the power converter consumption would change the outcome.
Another potential issue here is size of fridge and how much power the station can output and hold. This may work for smaller fridges but I'd be a tad concerned that much larger fridges with higher power draw would make the size of battery needed potentially an issue.
I live in San Antonio and there is only one power company, which is very undemocratic as they just throw money at the county so that they will not allow other power companies to compete. Also, trying to find out if there are different rates for off peak use is next to impossible as they shroud that information in tons of documentation so one comes away figuring that there is no off peak period here.
You're also using about 40% of the battery capacity. The savings start adding up when you can delay larger loads like air conditioning, which is where Tesla Powerwalls come into play. When you start delaying several kWhs of load to off-peak hours, that'll make up for the increased consumption from the battery and inverter system (most of the increase from the power bank is from the inverter itself). The reason you don't see a flicker when the grid power is cut is because power banks like this one behave like an on-line UPS. They always run the AC loads from the inverter and don't switch between battery and grid power. Incoming power (from the grid, solar, or car) goes through the internal charging circuit and onto the DC bus, with the battery absorbing or providing differences in power, or sitting idle. So you have AC input getting converted to DC and then back to AC to run the fridge. A purpose-built UPS for desktop computers actually does switch between grid and inverter power for the AC loads, but whatever efficiency gains they have is usually lost in the rudimentary charging circuit for the SLA battery. This type of UPS is called off-line or Standby UPS, because the inverter is off and disconnected from the load while grid power is present. When the grid is lost, the inverter powers up and relays switch the loads to the inverter. Now, if you find a standby UPS with an efficient lithium-based storage and charging system, that will reduce energy consumption and make the ROI look much better assuming the hardware cost isn't astronomical. However, you would still be looking at a multi-year breakeven, so your best best is to find loads that you can delay without needing to run them on battery power (blast the A/C before peak hours and then try to float until off-peak hours, using your space as a thermal battery), if going through the effort for a few dollars a month is worth it to you.
My power company offers free nights, so in theory you could run on battery 5am - 8pm (or whatever amount your battery can take) and take free energy 8-5 charging battery back up
I tried the same experiment and came to the same conclusion that it takes too long to break even although I have portable power stations located throughout the house to keep critical devices powered in the event of a power failure. Most notably the fridge and freezer, internet equipment, NAS, and my entire home office.
The trick here is you dont need the power bank, just a basic timer. With enough thermal mass like 2- liters of frozen water in your freezer you can cool your fridge for 3 hours with a power outage as long as you can cycle in 4 hours after words you can cheat alittle bit but it takes energy to get energy so really its penny wise or penny foolish depending on the situation.
i got a 12v dc fridge, the largest size they make for about 88 bucks. i think 55liters. added al foil tape to reduce ambient IR absorption, and then hacked it to run on 25v from a new usbc pd3.1 gan power supply. it uses 130wh/day, so little power consumption that its actually saving me money on my fridge because the main fridge isnt being opened so often and loosing all its cold air each time. and theres more room in the fridge. theres also some knock on benifits to lower ac cost in the summer. idk seems more practical and more utility. the power consumption for refrence is less than one of those smart meters lol
the power station's usage is going to always be the same (or close to it). you're just using data on a fridge. a fridge uses close to no electricity so the percentage of usage that the power station uses is going to be higher (for instance, if the power station uses 10 wh, and the fridge uses 10 wh, it's a 1:1 usage rate). If you were to have a machine that uses 100 wh, then it would be a 1:10 usage rate and you'd be saving more. if you had a 'big enough' power station to cover your entire house for the peak hours (in the case 5 hours), then it would be significantly larger savings. many people do this with their solar btw (RV'ers especially), so it's not a new concept
For a large family it will make sense, door stays open 24/7, I got solar no batteries, but instead of the refrigerator I would back up a bigger power load, or a washer and a gas dryer., the gas boiler and the AC fan it runs constantly ( not the compressor) , small inverter AC comes to mind.
I did this for 2 years, while my electric company was charging .05 per KWH after 8:00 PM. It would cost me around $3.00 to fully charge my Model S. Now… they changed the rates.
I use my power banks during peak times mainly for my power-hungry technology. And I use portable/flexible solar panels to recharge the power banks. Free energy.
I do not recommend using this with fridge and freezers because of how the pump works, it can wear out the battery quickly if this is always in use. Fridge also use very little power. This however is a good backup power solution if there are frequent power outages and other problems of that nature. But it would be better to use hardware that is not internet dependent. Because the internet goes out in a massive power outages and then nothing works.
One spec on these power stations that is usually NOT mentioned is the idle current, which is the current that is consumed with there is no load on the box. This can become VERY significant with small loads. As was mentioned in other comments, there are other inefficiencies, like battery charging and discharging, and the conversion from 120V to 12V, then back up to 120V. These are all working against you. Since these numbers are hard or impossible to get from the manufacturer, there is no way to tell which power station is the most efficient.
Thanks for the realistic conclusion. I wish there is a device that can get the AC energy from these power stations and injected back to your house without the need of solar and grid tie inverters. That way you can at least offset a bigger portion of your overall consumption during those peak times
in europe there are many so called balcony systems with a microinverter that can do that. I purchased one for my ecoflow called the powerstream. it can push up to 800 watts back into my house. been a gamechanger for me. plus I can also put more solar into the powerstation too!
It would be interesting to adjust the calculations to assume you drain the battery almost completely before the switch turns on - to see the theoretical maximum benefit if you plug in as much stuff into it as possible. Fridges don't really use much power once they reach temperature so that probably hurt the calculation a lot. I would try lamps and tv/media center and laptops/PC if possible.
I loved this review and its scientific approach; kudos or that. In NA these batteries/generators are for convenience and power supply backup, not for cost savings as demonstrated brilliantly here.
The real way to outsmart the power company is to put magic rectangles on your roof and much bigger boxes like this in your garage or basement. Grid-optional solar PV + LFP energy storage. I just had a $0.92 bill in Michigan.
always remember that the inverter that are on these power supplies take power to convert dc to ac. that is why you see an increase in usage in this case. currently my ecoflow ultra pro, runs my tv's and my home computer system. and i have set it to use 50% of the battery before it will start to charge from the grid. on days like today where it is cloudy my panels are not going to be enough to get it to charge. I'm still testing its limits as i just got it this past month, this summer will be interesting as i will be able to power more with it.
In Ontario Canada, Hydro One has a few different power plan options. 2 of the major ones are: "Time-of-Use" which has a On-Peak, Mid-Peak and Off-Peak prices, and also offer a "Ultra-Low Overnight" plan. So I've been curious what a return-on-investment would be like to charge up a battery bank overnight at the very low rate and have it discharge during the day.
If you have an electric hot water heater, turning that off during certain periods of the day, and then running it at night and running it to a hotter temperature and or adding a mixing valve (One way to expand "capacity" of a hot water heater is to increase the temperature and then use a mixing valve.) If you are not home in the day, it can run then at night on cheaper electric.
If your peak times are only a few hours everyday, I think you could just fill up your fridge with water bottles (or any other stuff that has high thermal nass) and leave it unplugged for the time period. Basically making your fridge a "thermal battery". We did this with my friend at our dorm every night, because the fridge was too loud and I couldn't sleep well. Yes, after 10 hours it got a bit warmer, but maybe 5 hours could be manageable. Though you shouldn't add new stuff to the fridge during that period, that will ruin the temperature...
hint...if power gets expensive at 4 pm, set timer to switch to battery at 3:59, if you go one second over the power companys cut off time you WILL BE CHARGED the next full hour! Same with switching back to cheap power company power. Jump back in at 9:01 on the cheap rate or you will lose ONE FULL HOUR if you switch back one second before 9:00 pm. Enjoy the savings, I know I do!
One thing you should be aware of if you were to do this is that those smart plugs may have lower load ratings than the receptacle they're plugged into and a power station can potentially draw more current (to charge) than the plug can (safely) provide. Just make sure you match them up once way or another so you don't risk starting a fire the the smart plug overheats.
Peak shaving I believe refers to really big commercial users of power who get charged extra for using more that their contracted usage and the batterys help reduce those peaks
A lot of people have a power station for other reasons, and if they were to use them for 'other reasons' were on weekends for recreational camping, or for emergency power, then your suggestion makes more sense. The power station consumes a lot of power for the inverter. If your frig is DC, that I gess would be a huge saving. A smaller, or optimally-sized inverter will make a big difference. I recently saw a review for a power station with a 2500Watt inverter and the loss was 20% over a 10 hour period. So, I guess the opportunity is there for a smaller 'multifuel' frig, but those tend to be less efficient. There are exceptions though.
Just want to make sure I understand this correctly, were you charging the power station the entire time it wasn't peak power, or did you factor in how long it actually takes to charge it, and only charge it up for that period of time? IE, were you actually charging your station 19 hours a day, or only what it actually needed?
Am I right in thinking the lack of savings is due to lack of inverter efficiency vs the cheap/expensive electricity rates? Is there a way to smart way to change the power source between solar to grid when solar is available?
I wonder how well this will work with the AC which is most expensive during the summer peak hours. I'd love to put out solar panels only during the summer months for the AC and the pool!
If the 9 Watts the power station uses does not significantly change as you add more appliances then your savings would be significantly larger if you are able to add a number of appliances to the power station
Saving money on electricity costs by manipulating the time of use depends entirely on your prices at each time of use. Little price difference -little saving. Which as you demonstrate may not cover the energy lost in the storage and recovery. Where I live (UK) the low rate is always 1/3 of the main rate so there is a big saving to be had. I'm looking into a system with possibly 15 - 20 KWh of storage. That way I can draw all my daily consumption at low rate and use it at peak rate times.
the fridge will only need to work when it needs to reach a temperature so it's kind of redundant, the cost of the battery and the money you'll save is negligeble, not worth the hassle.
I have heard of electric vans doing this so when they return to the yard its peak time so sell everything left on thier battery and they then recharge at the cheapest time ready for work the next day
have u compared the plugs? like put them in eachother and see if they measure the same values, these plugs tend to consume some power and not be very well callibrated
To be fair, those smart plugs were not 'engineered' for use with that specific power unit. They were designed for typical wall sockets, which are oriented vertically relative to each other, rather than the horizontal configuration of the power unit. Your critique could just as easily be turned around to ask why the power unit wasn't properly engineered for that specific smart plug.
A lot of you are suggesting connecting to a solar panel to keep the battery charged. Think about it. It's a refrigerator. Do you really want wires hanging off the ceiling/walls, or running across the floor? Maybe doing it if your device was on an outside wall.
Entertainment system -- This was my highest 120v usage for 4-9 and I am doing the same thing as you did. COOL to find someone else that had the same thoughts. 170 watts is what my ES using per hour 5 hours for 4-9 means 170w x 5 = 850 watts a day or about 25 KW per month moved off peek power time.
Savings are more of you charge with a simple 100w panel or even 200 everyday and it'll run 24/7 and not use grid dramatically increasing savings but also increase payback time for panels and cabling.
Several things here first you're using a pretty expensive power bank you can buy an EB3A for about 150 bucks and it will handle 600 Watts just be careful it's only about $219 watt hours effective capacity so you need to make sure that has enough capacity to run your device until the rate changes back to a lower rate that means about 4 hours for a fridge worst case scenario My problem is I need 6 hours which would probably be enough I would have to test it My high peak is 4:30 to 10:30 and that's year round in the winter time they add an additional high peak window which I believe is 6:30 to 9:00 in the morning so I would need to set up to schedulings for on and off You did notice the increase in power consumption don't even think of attempting to running off DC power because the DC converter in these boxes is less efficient than the AC converter so you're better off using AC power except for USB USB is very efficient Now something to consider you can run multiple fridges off that unit so for example I have a fridge and four freezers that big box you have could probably run all five and do it for 6 hours while you're 12 watt overhead will be about the same so the less you run off that box the less you're going to save because you're eating it up with the operating cost of the box itself so if you add more things to the box without going past your time limit which for you is 5 hours then you'll maximize your savings by spreading out that 12 watts over more savings Your biggest problem however is going to be the box itself wear and tear on the box itself is huge and these companies don't like warrantying these boxes usually it's the cooling fan that fails and then of course the unit safety's itself at least that's my experience they're just not really meant for continuous duty cycles like this you would really need to design your own little off-grid set up for it and you'd pay a lot less than 700 bucks Where I am you can choose whether to have one rate for power or time of use I chose time of use because my big monsters of power consumption water heater electric dryer and electric car are all things where I can control when they run What were essentially doing is time shifting power without even trying to initiate any kind of cost savings simply time-shifting power reduce my electric bill 50 bucks a month My Nissan leaf I can actually program it and tell it don't turn on until 10:30 so when I get home and plug the car in it doesn't charge it just sits there and waits until 10:30 when the price of power goes down and then it turns on and starts charging Because of the hard water we have we do not run the hot water heater continuously I have a small 7 gallon unit under the sink that gives us 24/7 hot water it cost $3 a month to run Yes I have a meter on it so I know exactly what it cost to run it the big 50 gallon water heater I only turn that on when we need it and only for 1 hour if I ran it continuously I would destroy the elements in less than a month by only turning it on when we need it I get about two and a half 3 years out of the elements Yes we have very very hard water The same with the clothes dryer I simply turn it on only during off peak time so my sister knows that you can't start the dryer if it's past 3:30 because it takes 1 hour to complete a cycle and that would take you past 4:30 l otherwise you just leave the clothes in the dryer until 10:30 and then hit the start button Just doing that kind of thing reduced my power bill by $50 a month As far as what you're trying to do which is essentially time shifting power consumption it doesn't work that great on a small scale like that these battery boxes are too expensive and don't last long enough do not even think of trying this for all you people at home completely abandon any thought of trying this unless at a minimum you're using lithium iron phosphate batteries I have had a lithium ion or lithium polymer battery light off in my house yep it was shooting out little hand grenades of cells going off and I had to grab that thing rip the wires out of it and chuck it out into the front yard almost lost my house to one of those So now indoors only lithium iron phosphate is allowed to be plugged in continuously This would never have an ROI with anything but that the Am iron phosphate you don't have enough charge cycles on all of them ion or lithium polymer to ever recoup your costs However in general you need to maximize the power that your drawing from the box in order to spread the boxes own power consumption over time plus you're converting power twice You're converting power by charging the box and then converting power again by running your device so you're savings has to be large enough to account for that Basically you can only use boxes that have a built-in charger so they can charge fast and you need to figure out how many hours you need to run divide that by your effective capacity not the rated capacity of your box for example the EB3A is rated for 291 hours but you effectively only get about 220 watt hours out of it My window is 6 hours which means I can only draw about 40 watts from the box because 40 * 6 is 241 hours so more like 36 watt hours I use it more for preserving equipment we have very poor power here lots of surges and browns and lots of momentary power outages so pretty much everything is on a UPS
i was looking at one of thease juist for the UPS option due to the very instable electric in my apartment building from what i see they have a 20ms response timw wioch for the setup i need atcualy is to slow i have a server/computer/network setup in a cabinet they all require like 10ms or less on a UPS or they will just turn off all together.. how ever i could see it used for my less sensative stuff for my terrerium setup to keep the heat mat mister and grow lights all stable cus any interuption in that can set back my tropical carnivours plants by months
The video has an interesting concept for a quick work around. My not very extremely well thought out work around for this problem could be what if you could plug the fridge into a splitter which would be very dangerous to make. 1 split plugs into the smart plug in the wall and the other half of the split plugs into the power bank smart plug. You can time which end of the split draws power using the smart plugs as long as that doesn't also get dangerous. The only loss I could see is whatever the power bank uses when it runs and charges. Then again a fridge doesn't use all that much energy but the perfect appliance could maximize the savings. Hey this isn't a bad idea.
Doing this with the battery is not financially fesable but a great way to take advantage of off peak pricing is to blast the ac at night when it’s cheap and your body wants to be cooler and then let it use less energy during the day with your home acting as a battery.
I liked your science, you did an excellent job presenting the information. edit - I'm curious how the numbers would work if you only ran the fridge during the lower rate periods and had the smart plug disconnect the fridge for the 4 hour peak period. I think a well insulated fridge would not lose to much temperature over 4 hours.
My question is If using the power bank on say 300w an hour, such as a TV and computer would your savings be worth it? Would the higher power draw mean much more money savings during the "peek hours," offsetting the battery bank's own power draw? Edit: not to mention having the Battery as a backup UPS to save your Pc and such during a power/brownout.
The Anker 767- will run the fridge 24/7 if connected to solar all of the electricity cost for the fridge. It’s a better way to shave money off of your electric bill because the solar and the fridge match each other almost perfectly 600 watts of solar will run a large fridge for ever! but cloudy days either require more solar or something like a 10 kW battery
Sounds good, but doesn't work. Why? Because batteries don’t store energy with 100% efficiency, and inverters also aren’t 100% efficient. The losses can be as high as 25-40%. On top of that, the cost of a power bank wouldn’t pay off even in 10 years.
YES you could do it and the peak pricing 😵💫 is and does have 5 costs . To make simple highest PEAK savings is June 1 to Sept.30 5 pm to 8 pm on Air Conditioning use . There other peak times also .
i would suggest to keep the timed plug on the fridge and simply turn off the fridge during the 5 hour peak times. perhaps throw a ice pack into the freezer. get rid of the UPS. limit the amount of times you open the fridge/freezer during the outage times. could install a USB chargeable motion sensitive light in the fridge if you rally care about the fridge light. Keeping your fridge/freezer around 80% full is optimal for efficiency as well. too many or too few items can reduce efficiency. if your fridge has a decent R-Value it should keep items cold for 5 hours without power. could set your heater thermostat to a really low setting during the same time if you have a programmable thermostat this would also save power. set your dishwasher on a time delay start if it has that feature if you normally run the appliance during that time. and wash your clothing outside of the window as well.
if you keep your fridge only 60%-70% full of items you could add additional ice packs in the fridge and freezer partitions to assist in keeping them cool. This would assist in the appliance efficiency throughout the peak and non peak hours as well. the fridge will run longer when the power is restored however that should be cheaper than keeping it on during the peak times You could also just keep the fridge powered and do away with the timed plug and simply keep the other suggestions in play. fridges don't constantly run they only kick on when the temperature threshold is reached for its thermostat.
You see. The trick is to take that big battery to someone else home to recharge or at work so its getting charged up for free during the low cost times.
That too! Lol
@@vincentsgamingI heard of someone doing just that with their electric motorcycle (charging at work, not at home) and almost lost his job!
When I was a poor student I used to charge a similar contraption that I DIYed on the train (there are sockets there), so I could save on the power bill
Yes, stealing from your employer is always a god idea. That is, until you get caught, fired, and maybe even prosecuted.
@@BryanTorokwell if you are business is going to get upset over you charging 13 cents of electricity, then you probably don't want to be working there anyway.
And that's what 1,000 Watts cost.
That's about 20 lb. Now if you're rolling 45 lb of batteries into work to get 39 cents worth of electricity 5 days a week..
Well the same thing really applies.
It may not save you money on energy cost, but if there's a power outage it'll still save you the cost of replacing the food... which I've had to do 3x in the last 5 months.
So this is my use case. I have a 1 KW hour battery that will keep the refrigerator and freezer going until the next day after the disaster when I can start up my propane generator.
I have enough solar panels to charge about 900 watts per day.
That's enough to run the refrigerator 1 hour per 3 hours and keep it going for about 12 hours.
Or to charge my devices or to keep a small fan going or to keep a small massage table pad going or to provide light in areas away from the lights I have plugged into my generator.
I use propane because there's almost no maintenance and the tank of propane will stay good indefinitely.
Oh yes and twice this year it has saved me at least $200 worth of food.
I can also charged the battery at my house and then take it over to a friend's house who has lost power and give them power for their refrigerator or freezer.
@@macmcleod1188 I used that same power station along with 800W of solar panels to survive for months after a hurricane. Definitely doable.
What shitty place do you live where the power goes out that often?
I haven't had a power outage in over a decade.
@@rogerwilco2 areas that get severe thunderstorms, derechos, tornados, and hurricanes, and ice storms, really bad floods (8 ft plus)
So basically places that are within 100 mi from the coast, tornado alley, near rivers, the lee side of mountain ranges, areas that have seen rapid population growth, areas that see forest fires, areas with long transmission lines from power generation sites.
It's actually more where is this remarkable place you live that doesn't meet one of those criteria.
One thing you didn't realize is probably the power loss by converting the energy from AC to DC and then DC to AC. That's why in some scenarios this setup up does not make sense at all. There's also power loss from just the battery charging itself, so there's enough inefficiencies there. Plus, one of the worst items to test this on is a fridge because they already run pretty lean and low on power once it's up an running with enough thermal mass inside.
This would have been better to test on things that consume significantly more power ~100W or more and have to stay on all the time. Your fridge not only consumes less than that when running, but also does not run full tilt all the time.
The thing you're not seeing is that the grid power is far less efficient at peak time. In some cases as much as half the efficiency.The grid has to start up generators to cover the extra load usually CCGT plants, but CCGT have about half the efficiency for the first hour or two. The grid operators are actually installing huge grid batteries to handle this, the big brother of this box.
Unfortunately, the fridge is about as good as it gets for running on rechargeable battery power. Heavier loads will overload the battery circuits, and higher kWH means paying more for higher capacity batteries. What you'd really want this for is a heat pump, but that's also the hardest and most expensive to run on a personal grid. The economics just don't make sense on a single-household scale. Say you run 1500w worth of appliances, peak-shaving five hours per day: even if you're saving 50c per kWH by peak-shaving, that's only saving you $3.75/day. It'd take easily half a decade to recoup the cost of the setup, before you even start to consider battery degradation.
Same issue with personal-scale solar. You just can't beat the economies of scale (and government subsidy) that utilities benefit from. It's cool tech, and I hope it improves. Right now, the cost doesn't make sense unless you're a hobbyist or have unreliable power. When you take into account the environmental impact of battery production, it's hard to even claim it's better for the environment than improving efficiency of existing power grids.
That is so true, not the most efficient setup, but at least it’s better than nothing
@@FionSus A lot of grids have off-peak pricing. With a combination of off-peak pricing and solar and the efficiencies of heat pumps, you can slash your bills and pay back the system long before the battery wears out. The other thing is that you're not paying for transmission of your solar power, so personal solar works REALLY great.
You're not outsmarting the power company, your doing exactly what they are trying to incenivize.
I guess the ""I'm doing exactly what the power company is trying to incentivize" title wouldn't get much clicks
I have outsmarted the homeowners association normally they give you fines if your grass is tall but with this simple trick (cuts grass) you don't have to worry about that
I have outsmarted the police. By obeying the law I have greatly diminished my chances of going to jail.
A fridge was like the worst possible test for this.
The cost of wearing out the battery will likely never offset the cost of electricity.
I tested such power station, and conversion efficiency is ~80% (it's the top value for the good power stations). So you loose 20% energy converting AC to DC, then you loose another 20% converting back. So you end up with 64Wh for every 100Wh you put into the power station. Totally unfeasible especially if you take into consideration the cost of power station itself.
So it looks like this is not really worth it to do, however, if you could somehow wire the power station up to charge by solar, then it probably would make sense.
Very true. Plus, battery inverters are about 90-80% efficient. So you're gonna lose those small gains over time anyway.
On the scale of a single refridgerator, the answer is no it's not worth it.
But more efficient equipment on a whole house system is a different question.
You also have the added benefit of having a backup for when the electricity goes out.
Solar is the way to recharge and get it off the grid entirely or at least getting the bulk of the energy via solar.
A 200w panel on this fridge would change that spread sheet entirely. 200 watt panels are about $100 right now
You're not outsmarting the power company. They offer lower rates at off-peak times to ENCOURAGE exactly what you're doing. A WIN-WIN if you think about it.
Why doesn't the power company invest in power storage?
Power company’s run off of a theory of running at the bare minimum keeping profits. When a natural disaster hits that day they have no money so the state/government helps to pay to rebuild. It’s a genius business model honestly.
@@MrBorisiothey do, but it's incredibly expensive. There's just no way right now to economically store that much energy.
I have this Anker C800 as well. Be careful with it when the battery depletes, when you start charging it again it does NOT return power to the AC plugs. You have to manually turn the inverter on.
Anytime you invert AC to DC or DC to AC you will lose energy! Plus the Power Station uses energy itself just to be ON! My peak 4-8PM is 37 cents and Midnight - 6AM is 2.2 cents.
By far the best power station experiment on TH-cam. I do use the Kasa smart plugs for my current Christmas light setup. Cheers.
Thanks for shedding light on this. Would be very nice if you had a spreadsheet that would allow us to enter our own rates, time, etc..
Here in NL this feature is standard if you have a home battery. Here you can get a "dynamic" contract with prices defined per hour. But those are available one day ahead. So you need a smart component to save €€, based on if you buy the power for the grid or take it from the solar panels. If you do it right you can save like 30-50% of you energy bill. And that without solar power (Winter/clouds ). And calculate the loss of loading and discharging the battery. Depending on the inverter quality it can be between 85%-95% so you need to add a 10% loss in your calculation.
That's true in the US as well with many of the large power companies.
The problem is the Power stations idle power usage. To get the most out of the cheaper power price, you would want to run multiple things during the increase $ time block as long as the power stations capacity is enough to run everything without needing charging during that time. Some people with get multiple smaller power stations - one for the fridge, one for router, computer, tv etc. The problem is each power station is using 1- 3% of its battery capacity per hour just being on. Having 3 power stations would be using %6 per hour VS 1 power station just using 2% per hour.
3% on a 1kWh power station is 30w, no shot it uses that much. my 4kW high frequency inverter uses 10w idle, im going to assume its more around the less than to equal to 1%
@MHawkeye the pecron E1500lfp has a 2.3% idle ac draw.
@@grindychum
can you link me where it says that? normally idle power draw is measured in w not percentages, so im curious in seeing it as ive googled and i havent even found a mention of idle usage.
forgive me if im blind, this is all that ive found
E1500LFP SPECIFICATIONS:
Brand: PECRON
Power: 2200W
Battery Capacity: 1536Wh(51.2V/30Ah)
Battery Type: LiFePO4 (3500+ Cycles to 80%)
Smart App Control: Bluetooth and WiFi
Battery Expansion: Yes
AC Input: 100Vac~120Vac/15A Max/1400W
Solar Input: Voc 12V~18V/100W Max/7A Max;Voc 32V~95V/700W Max/15A Max
Car Input: DC 12V~18V-100W Max
AC Output: 100~120Vac/50/60Hz/2200Watts
DC Output: 1x12V/30A;1x12V/10A;1x12V DC5525;2xUSB-C;4xUSB-A;1xWireless Charging Pad
USB Output: 1x100W PD,5x18W
Wireless Charging Pad: 15W Max.
UPS Power: 100-120Vac/15A Max.
Charging time: 1.5 Hours
Charge Temperature: 0°C~45°C/32°F-113°F
Discharge Temperature: -20°C~45°C/-4°F-113°F
Weight: About 18KG/About 39.7lbs
Dimensions: L377xW237xH305mm;L14.8xW9.3xH12in
@@MHawkeye check out hobotech and jasonoids reviews on the product
Also part of the problem is you are running something small like the fridge? If you want to make a dent in your power bill during the summer figure out how to run all the A. C. That the house needs? But it will still cost you a ton of money. But that is what I wish I could run and save money the A. C.
Power stations that could run A.C. for a few hours cost quite high. At that point why not add solar to the mix?
Btw, I take a similar approach with a Jackery. But instead I plug appliance that’s always on (modem, WiFi). I charge it at the lower rate hours 10pm to 5am. Then turn off the switch during daytime (more expensive)
i did the same test on my fridge. SCE tou prime rates. pretty much just broke even. but, if one was to do that they would have a back up on their fridge for when a power outage might happen. the reason it doesn't work for a fridge is because the inverter has to stay on constantly. i moved it to my dishwasher and - with a smart plug - it only charges and passes electricity through from the grid during lower cost times. it uses the battery when the costs are higher. the difference is that we turn on the ac outlet of the solar generator manually every time we use it instead of leaving the inverter on constantly and it is programmed to turn off the inverter automatically after 30 minutes of non use. we used to only run the dishwasher when the rates were low, but my wife wanted to be able to use it whenever she wants and this allows us to do that without using higher cost energy. it is slightly higher because of conversion losses and idle battery drain but the convenience is worth it to us. we didn't buy the thing to try and save money on tou rates but wanted something to run our fridge in case of power outage and use as portable energy source. this way, though, it doesn't just sit around waiting to be used once a year for a 2 hr. power outage but, instead gets used regularly which is better for the battery health.
What if you connected more items to the battery instead of just the fridge?
Yes. Because the fridge only draws 55 watts, the savings from shifting the demand is small, and doesn't pay for the power station. If you had a plugin device that drew hundreds of watts, your savings would be much larger and the payback period would be reasonable.
That'd work. It's basically what a whole-home battery backup does, but on a smaller scale. You don't actually need to have solar panels to use something like a Telsa power wall.
This is cool but doesnt seem practical. The cost of just one of those things offsets any price loss from the power company over months of use-age. Let alone having to buy multiple for different places in the house that use the most power.
This was just a fun test. Nobody said it was practical lol.
It might actually be practical for him to do this if he lives in the high price area where that would save him 21 cents a day?
If he were to run five equivalent loads off of that device assuming he would still get 5 hours of runtime that's $1 per day or $365 per year The ROI is 2 years That's actually not bad that's a really good ROI in fact
His problem is he's only running the fridge on it he needs to also plug the freezer into it and a few other things into it
There is also an additional benefit depending on where you live so if you have poor power where you live if you could break even with an ROI on the box itself then basically you have a free UPS which is very nice when the power goes out or in my case where the power flickers surges and browns an awful lot like literally daily I have 14 UPSs in my house just because otherwise the power would fry all my stuff
The core problem is if you maximize the box your ROI is two or three years which is really not bad The question is will that box last 3 years? The battery yes if it's a lithium-iron phosphate battery that battery will last 10 or 15 years The problem is the electronics in the box itself the inverter of the cooling system the BMS will those last typically these boxes really aren't made for continuous duty cycle and those components aren't the best quality components My EB3A boxes are very nice except the damn cooling fan always fails on them
Other than monitoring power usage, a smart plug hardly seems necessary. Timer plugs have been a thing for nearly a century.
I'm not going to read all the comments to see if someone mentioned this, but the fridge does not use constant power. The compressor motor cycles making the wattage vary drastically. You need to use a device that keeps a constant wattage, so as a light bulb.
A good ROI calculation would also involve the MTBF of the added components and the effect of the added heat generated by the power unit (typically bad because of the need to cool the area where the power unit is kept).
I've been doing this week 6kw of batteries for the last year. It's saving me about £700 per year.
Uninterrupted backup power has been around for many years for computers. My power company does not charge more for peak hour usage, but this setup might eventually save you a few bucks once its initial cost has been paid off.
That's not out smarting the power company, hold my beer. I purchased a sub $25K Chinese EV with V2L. I charge at night 20kwh for FREE, 7am switch on V2L via a change over switch, use about 7kwh from 20kwh of car battery night charge, use 13kwh for car journeys during day, and repeat. I am retired and live in New Zealand. I save about $800 on electricity, and $3,000 on fuel and vehicle maintenance. Note fuel here is $7 a US gallon.
Niiice
How do you get electricity to charge your car for free? Is that some sort of government subsidy to encourage EV use? As for the charging, what voltage and current do you need to power the charger.
Very nice. Unfortunately we’re still waiting for V2H in the US.
@@bluezcluez315 That is available on Nissan EVs.
@@BryanTorok In the USA? Just the Leaf right? I’m not familiar with how it connects to the home.
Enjoyed the video. I considered this test but our electricity is pretty low to where you live. It would be interesting to see the increase in savings if you used solar panels to recharge your anker unit vs using grid power. If you are using grid power either way during peak and non peak times, you still are using grid power , so 1kw of grid power to charge unit vs 1kw of solar power to charge unit, for example.
He has a video where he runs a room off a solar panel for a day using the same power station as in this video
Rather than trying to time the exact peak hours, perhaps run the max on battery, only charging during off peak times. If it only takes 2 hours to charge, 8 to 10 hours off-grid should be beneficial. I like your approach and I have both the Anker C1000 and smart plugs as well as Kasa control over the plug. I have to interface the Bluetooth reading of the battery feedback and intelligently control the plug. Thanks for the project ideas!!!
If you're running solar power this might make sense otherwise it doesn't because the more you deplete the battery the more you're cycling the battery and the faster you're wearing the battery out so you're better off only using battery power when you absolutely have to
Not to mention charging and discharging inefficiency. That way you use like 120% of power you'd use powering device from the wall.
@vadnegru it all comes down to the Delta between your own peeking off peak power costs Yes you're going to use more power by time shifting your electrical usage but the purpose of time shifting is not the safe powers to save money That's what you have to calculate
Buying a power bank on sale and getting solar panels for $700 seems like a more economic option. Got any buying plans or suggestions for Black Friday?
Buy Ecoflow and schedule your AC charging for all off-peak hours. Done deal. No Anker product nor smart plug needed
I've wondered about this for EV chargers. Our utility gives us rebates for each KWh used by our smart EV charger during off-peak times. But ultimately home EV chargers are pretty dumb with a basic protocol to communicate and agree on amperage for charging. The is no reason I don't think, that you couldn't make nearly any 240v device run off of a adequately sized home charger.
I did the same thing with the C1000 and a smart plug running my office computers. I then added one, then two, and now 6 100w solar panels. My C1000 is now only connected to AC power from 11pm to 4am. Does it pay for itself? Probably not in my lifetime but I don't pay peak prices and (at least try to) stay under my baseline allowance because PG&E finds a way to charge you more anyway they can...
Its common in many EU countries like Czech, Hungary, Poland, Germany etc. In Poland they had whole gov programme that they gave you back % of your house modernization process. By that I mean getting PV and magazines to store excess production from it. They even had a option that the your electrecity provider would store your production from EV and give it back to You instead of selling it to You
36c and 58c per KWh??? Where I live it’s 9c/KWh all the time.
I have a better idea…
Break up draconian power entities like PG&E.
And exactly what would that accomplish? Power companies do not have unlimited electrical capacity. They can, and will, meet demand when they can. But at a certain level, they either don't have the electricity to give or they are limited by the infrastructure to carry that electricity.
@@zsi You might want to rethink your opinion after researching the truth of what PG&E (for example) has done and not done to control the availability and price of electricity.
@@zsi monopolies cause higher prices, there needs to be competition
@@graphguyBay Area cities that don't use PG&E, like Palo Alto and Santa Clara have electricity prices that are 1/3 (or less) of PG&E's peak pricing. It's crazy.
When I lived in Palo Alto a few years ago, electricity was around $0.16/kWh flat rate (no peak and off-peak periods). Unfortunately I'm in PG&E territory now, but I've got a solar system with NEM 2.0, so PG&E are paying me :)
@@Daniel15au yup we are on Roseville power - 30% less than the PGE.
Congrats on solar - the issue I have is it is not really owned by you. You have to tie into their system.
Some power stations have the grid control included in the controls available through the app. Only saves on the smart plug, but ir you already have the power station for other reasons, you only have to save on the power cost arbitrage.
As a couple of other folks pointed out you need to stack benefits, like avoided food spoilage. But when my area had time of use rates the more effective savings were actions like time-shifting your energy use, like washing clothes, dishes, and bodies (Showers) after the price drops back down for water heating, cloths drying, etc. (If you do this without electric interlocks using hot water right before the price goes up could result in reheating your hot water tank at the higher prices). And looking at ways to make similar shifts in other large energy-use activities, like air-conditioning, dehumidification, cooking, … .
I like how this video is showing the power used by the Anker unit itself and how that changes the outcome. However, one could use a power converter that has a rating a little more than the refrigerator itself and that would change the outcome because the power used by the power converter now will not change the overall outcome as a larger power converter. Of course, one could always use solar and larger battery to reduce how the power converter consumption would change the outcome.
I outsmarted the power company by plugging into my neighbors outlet.
Another potential issue here is size of fridge and how much power the station can output and hold. This may work for smaller fridges but I'd be a tad concerned that much larger fridges with higher power draw would make the size of battery needed potentially an issue.
I live in San Antonio and there is only one power company, which is very undemocratic as they just throw money at the county so that they will not allow other power companies to compete. Also, trying to find out if there are different rates for off peak use is next to impossible as they shroud that information in tons of documentation so one comes away figuring that there is no off peak period here.
You're also using about 40% of the battery capacity. The savings start adding up when you can delay larger loads like air conditioning, which is where Tesla Powerwalls come into play. When you start delaying several kWhs of load to off-peak hours, that'll make up for the increased consumption from the battery and inverter system (most of the increase from the power bank is from the inverter itself).
The reason you don't see a flicker when the grid power is cut is because power banks like this one behave like an on-line UPS. They always run the AC loads from the inverter and don't switch between battery and grid power. Incoming power (from the grid, solar, or car) goes through the internal charging circuit and onto the DC bus, with the battery absorbing or providing differences in power, or sitting idle. So you have AC input getting converted to DC and then back to AC to run the fridge. A purpose-built UPS for desktop computers actually does switch between grid and inverter power for the AC loads, but whatever efficiency gains they have is usually lost in the rudimentary charging circuit for the SLA battery. This type of UPS is called off-line or Standby UPS, because the inverter is off and disconnected from the load while grid power is present. When the grid is lost, the inverter powers up and relays switch the loads to the inverter.
Now, if you find a standby UPS with an efficient lithium-based storage and charging system, that will reduce energy consumption and make the ROI look much better assuming the hardware cost isn't astronomical. However, you would still be looking at a multi-year breakeven, so your best best is to find loads that you can delay without needing to run them on battery power (blast the A/C before peak hours and then try to float until off-peak hours, using your space as a thermal battery), if going through the effort for a few dollars a month is worth it to you.
My power company offers free nights, so in theory you could run on battery 5am - 8pm (or whatever amount your battery can take) and take free energy 8-5 charging battery back up
I tried the same experiment and came to the same conclusion that it takes too long to break even although I have portable power stations located throughout the house to keep critical devices powered in the event of a power failure. Most notably the fridge and freezer, internet equipment, NAS, and my entire home office.
The trick here is you dont need the power bank, just a basic timer. With enough thermal mass like 2- liters of frozen water in your freezer you can cool your fridge for 3 hours with a power outage as long as you can cycle in 4 hours after words you can cheat alittle bit but it takes energy to get energy so really its penny wise or penny foolish depending on the situation.
i got a 12v dc fridge, the largest size they make for about 88 bucks. i think 55liters. added al foil tape to reduce ambient IR absorption, and then hacked it to run on 25v from a new usbc pd3.1 gan power supply. it uses 130wh/day, so little power consumption that its actually saving me money on my fridge because the main fridge isnt being opened so often and loosing all its cold air each time. and theres more room in the fridge. theres also some knock on benifits to lower ac cost in the summer. idk seems more practical and more utility. the power consumption for refrence is less than one of those smart meters lol
the power station's usage is going to always be the same (or close to it). you're just using data on a fridge. a fridge uses close to no electricity so the percentage of usage that the power station uses is going to be higher (for instance, if the power station uses 10 wh, and the fridge uses 10 wh, it's a 1:1 usage rate). If you were to have a machine that uses 100 wh, then it would be a 1:10 usage rate and you'd be saving more. if you had a 'big enough' power station to cover your entire house for the peak hours (in the case 5 hours), then it would be significantly larger savings. many people do this with their solar btw (RV'ers especially), so it's not a new concept
For a large family it will make sense, door stays open 24/7, I got solar no batteries, but instead of the refrigerator I would back up a bigger power load, or a washer and a gas dryer., the gas boiler and the AC fan it runs constantly ( not the compressor) , small inverter AC comes to mind.
I did this for 2 years, while my electric company was charging .05 per KWH after 8:00 PM. It would cost me around $3.00 to fully charge my Model S. Now… they changed the rates.
I use my power banks during peak times mainly for my power-hungry technology. And I use portable/flexible solar panels to recharge the power banks. Free energy.
I do not recommend using this with fridge and freezers because of how the pump works, it can wear out the battery quickly if this is always in use. Fridge also use very little power. This however is a good backup power solution if there are frequent power outages and other problems of that nature. But it would be better to use hardware that is not internet dependent. Because the internet goes out in a massive power outages and then nothing works.
One spec on these power stations that is usually NOT mentioned is the idle current, which is the current that is consumed with there is no load on the box. This can become VERY significant with small loads. As was mentioned in other comments, there are other inefficiencies, like battery charging and discharging, and the conversion from 120V to 12V, then back up to 120V. These are all working against you. Since these numbers are hard or impossible to get from the manufacturer, there is no way to tell which power station is the most efficient.
Thanks for the realistic conclusion. I wish there is a device that can get the AC energy from these power stations and injected back to your house without the need of solar and grid tie inverters. That way you can at least offset a bigger portion of your overall consumption during those peak times
in europe there are many so called balcony systems with a microinverter that can do that. I purchased one for my ecoflow called the powerstream. it can push up to 800 watts back into my house. been a gamechanger for me. plus I can also put more solar into the powerstation too!
It would be interesting to adjust the calculations to assume you drain the battery almost completely before the switch turns on - to see the theoretical maximum benefit if you plug in as much stuff into it as possible. Fridges don't really use much power once they reach temperature so that probably hurt the calculation a lot. I would try lamps and tv/media center and laptops/PC if possible.
I loved this review and its scientific approach; kudos or that. In NA these batteries/generators are for convenience and power supply backup, not for cost savings as demonstrated brilliantly here.
The real way to outsmart the power company is to put magic rectangles on your roof and much bigger boxes like this in your garage or basement. Grid-optional solar PV + LFP energy storage. I just had a $0.92 bill in Michigan.
always remember that the inverter that are on these power supplies take power to convert dc to ac. that is why you see an increase in usage in this case. currently my ecoflow ultra pro, runs my tv's and my home computer system. and i have set it to use 50% of the battery before it will start to charge from the grid. on days like today where it is cloudy my panels are not going to be enough to get it to charge. I'm still testing its limits as i just got it this past month, this summer will be interesting as i will be able to power more with it.
In Ontario Canada, Hydro One has a few different power plan options. 2 of the major ones are: "Time-of-Use" which has a On-Peak, Mid-Peak and Off-Peak prices, and also offer a "Ultra-Low Overnight" plan. So I've been curious what a return-on-investment would be like to charge up a battery bank overnight at the very low rate and have it discharge during the day.
If you have an electric hot water heater, turning that off during certain periods of the day, and then running it at night and running it to a hotter temperature and or adding a mixing valve (One way to expand "capacity" of a hot water heater is to increase the temperature and then use a mixing valve.) If you are not home in the day, it can run then at night on cheaper electric.
If your peak times are only a few hours everyday, I think you could just fill up your fridge with water bottles (or any other stuff that has high thermal nass) and leave it unplugged for the time period. Basically making your fridge a "thermal battery". We did this with my friend at our dorm every night, because the fridge was too loud and I couldn't sleep well. Yes, after 10 hours it got a bit warmer, but maybe 5 hours could be manageable. Though you shouldn't add new stuff to the fridge during that period, that will ruin the temperature...
hint...if power gets expensive at 4 pm, set timer to switch to battery at 3:59, if you go one second over the power companys cut off time you WILL BE CHARGED the next full hour!
Same with switching back to cheap power company power. Jump back in at 9:01 on the cheap rate or you will lose ONE FULL HOUR if you switch back one second before 9:00 pm. Enjoy the savings, I know I do!
One thing you should be aware of if you were to do this is that those smart plugs may have lower load ratings than the receptacle they're plugged into and a power station can potentially draw more current (to charge) than the plug can (safely) provide. Just make sure you match them up once way or another so you don't risk starting a fire the the smart plug overheats.
Peak shaving I believe refers to really big commercial users of power who get charged extra for using more that their contracted usage and the batterys help reduce those peaks
A lot of people have a power station for other reasons, and if they were to use them for 'other reasons' were on weekends for recreational camping, or for emergency power, then your suggestion makes more sense. The power station consumes a lot of power for the inverter. If your frig is DC, that I gess would be a huge saving. A smaller, or optimally-sized inverter will make a big difference. I recently saw a review for a power station with a 2500Watt inverter and the loss was 20% over a 10 hour period. So, I guess the opportunity is there for a smaller 'multifuel' frig, but those tend to be less efficient. There are exceptions though.
I mean typically a fridge uses about 1.5 units over a course of the day. Fridge running on this wouldn't really save much.
What app are you using, and how are you configuring it to control that smart switch to turn on and off on a schedule? Thanks!
Just want to make sure I understand this correctly, were you charging the power station the entire time it wasn't peak power, or did you factor in how long it actually takes to charge it, and only charge it up for that period of time?
IE, were you actually charging your station 19 hours a day, or only what it actually needed?
Am I right in thinking the lack of savings is due to lack of inverter efficiency vs the cheap/expensive electricity rates? Is there a way to smart way to change the power source between solar to grid when solar is available?
I wonder how well this will work with the AC which is most expensive during the summer peak hours. I'd love to put out solar panels only during the summer months for the AC and the pool!
If the 9 Watts the power station uses does not significantly change as you add more appliances then your savings would be significantly larger if you are able to add a number of appliances to the power station
Saving money on electricity costs by manipulating the time of use depends entirely on your prices at each time of use. Little price difference -little saving. Which as you demonstrate may not cover the energy lost in the storage and recovery. Where I live (UK) the low rate is always 1/3 of the main rate so there is a big saving to be had. I'm looking into a system with possibly 15 - 20 KWh of storage. That way I can draw all my daily consumption at low rate and use it at peak rate times.
the fridge will only need to work when it needs to reach a temperature so it's kind of redundant, the cost of the battery and the money you'll save is negligeble, not worth the hassle.
Why was it using more power?
I have heard of electric vans doing this so when they return to the yard its peak time so sell everything left on thier battery and they then recharge at the cheapest time ready for work the next day
have u compared the plugs? like put them in eachother and see if they measure the same values, these plugs tend to consume some power and not be very well callibrated
Payback is never in this situation. Got it.
I love how the smart plug blocks the use of another outlet. Now thats brilliant engineering.
To be fair, those smart plugs were not 'engineered' for use with that specific power unit. They were designed for typical wall sockets, which are oriented vertically relative to each other, rather than the horizontal configuration of the power unit.
Your critique could just as easily be turned around to ask why the power unit wasn't properly engineered for that specific smart plug.
I wonder if there is a more effiecient power station you could use
A lot of you are suggesting connecting to a solar panel to keep the battery charged. Think about it. It's a refrigerator. Do you really want wires hanging off the ceiling/walls, or running across the floor?
Maybe doing it if your device was on an outside wall.
Entertainment system -- This was my highest 120v usage for 4-9 and I am doing the same thing as you did. COOL to find someone else that had the same thoughts. 170 watts is what my ES using per hour 5 hours for 4-9 means 170w x 5 = 850 watts a day or about 25 KW per month moved off peek power time.
What are those smart plugs, I mean: where to get, or brand. They have build in Wifi? Or how do you control them with your app?
Can you do this again with the one difference of using solar panels instead of grid power
Savings are more of you charge with a simple 100w panel or even 200 everyday and it'll run 24/7 and not use grid dramatically increasing savings but also increase payback time for panels and cabling.
Several things here first you're using a pretty expensive power bank you can buy an EB3A for about 150 bucks and it will handle 600 Watts just be careful it's only about $219 watt hours effective capacity so you need to make sure that has enough capacity to run your device until the rate changes back to a lower rate that means about 4 hours for a fridge worst case scenario My problem is I need 6 hours which would probably be enough I would have to test it
My high peak is 4:30 to 10:30 and that's year round in the winter time they add an additional high peak window which I believe is 6:30 to 9:00 in the morning so I would need to set up to schedulings for on and off
You did notice the increase in power consumption don't even think of attempting to running off DC power because the DC converter in these boxes is less efficient than the AC converter so you're better off using AC power except for USB USB is very efficient
Now something to consider you can run multiple fridges off that unit so for example I have a fridge and four freezers that big box you have could probably run all five and do it for 6 hours while you're 12 watt overhead will be about the same so the less you run off that box the less you're going to save because you're eating it up with the operating cost of the box itself so if you add more things to the box without going past your time limit which for you is 5 hours then you'll maximize your savings by spreading out that 12 watts over more savings
Your biggest problem however is going to be the box itself wear and tear on the box itself is huge and these companies don't like warrantying these boxes usually it's the cooling fan that fails and then of course the unit safety's itself at least that's my experience they're just not really meant for continuous duty cycles like this you would really need to design your own little off-grid set up for it and you'd pay a lot less than 700 bucks
Where I am you can choose whether to have one rate for power or time of use I chose time of use because my big monsters of power consumption water heater electric dryer and electric car are all things where I can control when they run
What were essentially doing is time shifting power without even trying to initiate any kind of cost savings simply time-shifting power reduce my electric bill 50 bucks a month My Nissan leaf I can actually program it and tell it don't turn on until 10:30 so when I get home and plug the car in it doesn't charge it just sits there and waits until 10:30 when the price of power goes down and then it turns on and starts charging
Because of the hard water we have we do not run the hot water heater continuously I have a small 7 gallon unit under the sink that gives us 24/7 hot water it cost $3 a month to run Yes I have a meter on it so I know exactly what it cost to run it the big 50 gallon water heater I only turn that on when we need it and only for 1 hour if I ran it continuously I would destroy the elements in less than a month by only turning it on when we need it I get about two and a half 3 years out of the elements Yes we have very very hard water
The same with the clothes dryer I simply turn it on only during off peak time so my sister knows that you can't start the dryer if it's past 3:30 because it takes 1 hour to complete a cycle and that would take you past 4:30 l otherwise you just leave the clothes in the dryer until 10:30 and then hit the start button
Just doing that kind of thing reduced my power bill by $50 a month
As far as what you're trying to do which is essentially time shifting power consumption it doesn't work that great on a small scale like that these battery boxes are too expensive and don't last long enough do not even think of trying this for all you people at home completely abandon any thought of trying this unless at a minimum you're using lithium iron phosphate batteries I have had a lithium ion or lithium polymer battery light off in my house yep it was shooting out little hand grenades of cells going off and I had to grab that thing rip the wires out of it and chuck it out into the front yard almost lost my house to one of those
So now indoors only lithium iron phosphate is allowed to be plugged in continuously
This would never have an ROI with anything but that the Am iron phosphate you don't have enough charge cycles on all of them ion or lithium polymer to ever recoup your costs
However in general you need to maximize the power that your drawing from the box in order to spread the boxes own power consumption over time plus you're converting power twice You're converting power by charging the box and then converting power again by running your device so you're savings has to be large enough to account for that
Basically you can only use boxes that have a built-in charger so they can charge fast and you need to figure out how many hours you need to run divide that by your effective capacity not the rated capacity of your box for example the EB3A is rated for 291 hours but you effectively only get about 220 watt hours out of it My window is 6 hours which means I can only draw about 40 watts from the box because 40 * 6 is 241 hours so more like 36 watt hours
I use it more for preserving equipment we have very poor power here lots of surges and browns and lots of momentary power outages so pretty much everything is on a UPS
"I'm gonna put a super complicated computer into my plug to do what was already possible in 1952!" "What's it called?" "SMART plug!"
Problem is the ROI. Its probably going to take YEARS to save enough money on electricity just to pay for that power station.
i was looking at one of thease juist for the UPS option due to the very instable electric in my apartment building from what i see they have a 20ms response timw wioch for the setup i need atcualy is to slow i have a server/computer/network setup in a cabinet they all require like 10ms or less on a UPS or they will just turn off all together.. how ever i could see it used for my less sensative stuff for my terrerium setup to keep the heat mat mister and grow lights all stable cus any interuption in that can set back my tropical carnivours plants by months
The video has an interesting concept for a quick work around. My not very extremely well thought out work around for this problem could be what if you could plug the fridge into a splitter which would be very dangerous to make. 1 split plugs into the smart plug in the wall and the other half of the split plugs into the power bank smart plug. You can time which end of the split draws power using the smart plugs as long as that doesn't also get dangerous. The only loss I could see is whatever the power bank uses when it runs and charges. Then again a fridge doesn't use all that much energy but the perfect appliance could maximize the savings. Hey this isn't a bad idea.
did you check both smart plugs to be sure they report the same loads the same wattage, a old light bulb should do as a test load
I wonder how much power the 2nd unneeded smart switch consumed.
Doing this with the battery is not financially fesable but a great way to take advantage of off peak pricing is to blast the ac at night when it’s cheap and your body wants to be cooler and then let it use less energy during the day with your home acting as a battery.
I liked your science, you did an excellent job presenting the information.
edit - I'm curious how the numbers would work if you only ran the fridge during the lower rate periods and had the smart plug disconnect the fridge for the 4 hour peak period. I think a well insulated fridge would not lose to much temperature over 4 hours.
My question is If using the power bank on say 300w an hour, such as a TV and computer would your savings be worth it?
Would the higher power draw mean much more money savings during the "peek hours," offsetting the battery bank's own power draw?
Edit: not to mention having the Battery as a backup UPS to save your Pc and such during a power/brownout.
why you should've put them in mechanical plug timer they're powerless right?
The Anker 767- will run the fridge 24/7 if connected to solar all of the electricity cost for the fridge. It’s a better way to shave money off of your electric bill because the solar and the fridge match each other almost perfectly 600 watts of solar will run a large fridge for ever! but cloudy days either require more solar or something like a 10 kW battery
A 10 _kWh_ battery.
Sounds good, but doesn't work. Why? Because batteries don’t store energy with 100% efficiency, and inverters also aren’t 100% efficient. The losses can be as high as 25-40%. On top of that, the cost of a power bank wouldn’t pay off even in 10 years.
YES you could do
it and the peak pricing 😵💫 is and does have 5 costs . To make simple highest PEAK savings is June 1 to Sept.30 5 pm to 8 pm
on Air Conditioning use . There other peak times also .
also consider if its a pure sine wave to protect the motor
i would suggest to keep the timed plug on the fridge and simply turn off the fridge during the 5 hour peak times. perhaps throw a ice pack into the freezer. get rid of the UPS. limit the amount of times you open the fridge/freezer during the outage times. could install a USB chargeable motion sensitive light in the fridge if you rally care about the fridge light. Keeping your fridge/freezer around 80% full is optimal for efficiency as well. too many or too few items can reduce efficiency. if your fridge has a decent R-Value it should keep items cold for 5 hours without power. could set your heater thermostat to a really low setting during the same time if you have a programmable thermostat this would also save power. set your dishwasher on a time delay start if it has that feature if you normally run the appliance during that time. and wash your clothing outside of the window as well.
if you keep your fridge only 60%-70% full of items you could add additional ice packs in the fridge and freezer partitions to assist in keeping them cool. This would assist in the appliance efficiency throughout the peak and non peak hours as well. the fridge will run longer when the power is restored however that should be cheaper than keeping it on during the peak times You could also just keep the fridge powered and do away with the timed plug and simply keep the other suggestions in play. fridges don't constantly run they only kick on when the temperature threshold is reached for its thermostat.