Famous comment I get from people is”your gonna charge me just to look at it”,my response is to step out the door and look at the car and say that’s looking at it.
" but Autozone diagnosed it for free already with their thingy , You're jist trying to rip me off " Not kidding this was said to me less than 40 minutes ago.
Only industry in existence where people somehow, someway think they shouldn't pay you for your time and they don't think twice about it Mechanics are treated like subhumans
Its funny isnt it. You buy an impact gun, you'll make the money back on the first set of tie rods you replace. Somebody's car doesn't start cause the fucking door control module went bad? $4000 for the automotive scope cause you might as well buy once cry once, $3500 for the tool that will program the new module in... $200-300 diag, $100 profit on the part, $300 labor including programming. Diagnostics is something every shop needs, but it has to be a hobby too because tooling is not a game anymore... any damn thing you need is at least $400. The shop purchasing it barely makes any sense, because realistically in every shop only one person knows how to use it... the rest can barely turn a multimeter to read volts. So the tool is worthless when the guy leaves. So you gotta have a guy thats the highest paid in the shop to do the lowest paying jobs in the shop. Ass backwards. Poor soul that does the diag in a shop. I'd know, I'm that poor soul.
YES, training, if you haven’t learned to be proficient with a DVOM you cannot expect to pickup a scanner or scope and expect to be able to diagnose modern automobiles. Knowing basic electrical is essential, even for a mid level tech, electronics are not going away, communication systems are more and more prevalent with each new model, what used to be circuitry, like lamps and wipers will be communicating over network to modules, it’s happening. The days of harness repair are all but gone, if you make a repair attempt to a safety system harness you are liable for any consequences if the repair fails, communication wires to ABS, power steering, ADAS, BSM, SRS, and thats just the common knowledge systems, wipers and exterior lighting are a couple others. If y’all thinking a wire repair is worth having that liability is worth it, well I hope you’re doing OEM quality work, because times are changing rapidly in this field. How about this question , “you’re food only had one pubic hair in it, why did you send the whole plate back?” A wire break in the middle of a harness is the same, if it were your own pube, sure pick it out, but when it’s someone else’s, you’re gonna need a fresh plate.
Should be the aspirational goal of many mid-level techs. Seems to be where the future is. As you said learn the fundamentals, it’s not just plug and play, no matter how much you spent on your scan tool.
I'm transitioning into automotive diagnostics from computer networking and I just had to re-clone my home network because I needed to do billable tech service on a NEW scan tool because it needed THAT many software updates. So, in order to use this new tool I had to leverage my background in network topology, operating systems, electronics and software configuration. I only see the field becoming radically more technical and inaccessible to many, many people. Sorry to say. The consumer just keeps demanding larger and larger power plants, which require more and more sophisticated service. Simple as.
I took a electrical diag position in a UAW factory back in September and lemme tell ya its been rough. Our new truck we launched has 9 CAN networks on the higher end units. I’m miles ahead of where i was but still have so much more to go. I sure as hell would never want to do this work on flat rate.
EXACTLY ! Diagnostic tech as a career ? Madness I tells ya. Unless you don't care about making $. Let's talk about the least paying , most frustrating part of auto repair ... uuh anyone ? Using a scope to diagnose ? hahahhhaaaa. Do you have a known good signal ? Are you sure the amplitude and frequency and pattern are correct ? Been there , started using a scope in the 90's. If you can diagnose multiple CAN networks and program modules for multiple cars get out of this so called business and make real $ in the hi tech industry networks.. And don't even tell me ,haters, how it is, I was diagnosing GM and Ford product in the 90's with all their trash electronics, modules, PCM failures, wiring harness rub through..etc. rant off.
Electric/Electronic diagnosis is where this industry is headed . In future the easy gravy work like engine oil changes will be a thing of the past so there’s no better time to add diag skills to your capabilities than right now 👍 Of course you still have to be willing to do the gravy work if that’s all there is in the shop that day because it makes the company good money but having good accurate diag skills will serve you well in the not to distant future 👍
Gravy? Hey man, to my millenial ass... real gravy is sitting in that seat and decoding the mysteries of that OBD-II port. Just have to understand the software.
I would also suggest subscribing to some electronics channels like EEVblog and Learn Electronics Repair. Knowing how circuits and components work is very helpful. The line between automotive and electronics repair is starting to blur. Not saying you need to work on SMD’s, but knowledge of how to look at a PCB and know what is going on is pretty useful.
Flat Rate Master.. I agree 100% with you Mike. Just because you buy an expensive scan tool does not mean you know how to use it. I've seen that too many times on TH-cam.. Training is key.
There are also some incredibly good books available. It's old fashioned maybe, but to me the learning is faster than having to go to classes and/or listen to people talking on YT. In the end, each individual has to do their own learning. No-one can just upload knowledge into their head. Books for the win.
Out where I am at, people are used to the parts cannon approach of repairs. They have a hard time believing that you need to diagnose properly to save them the heartache of unneeded parts.
No diag techs around here, just shotgunners and parts hangers. Heck, most guys around here don't even know how to use a testlight. Still shops around here without diag tools or service info. Sigh.
Yes, you have to become obsessed with learning and applying it via practice at your work. Go home train a couple hours learn something become an addict then have some more. I was addicted to buying all the tools and learning it then applying it, absolutely obsessed over it lol. So yes, its not just try it at work a lil bust out some r&r then go home and chill, it complete obsession and commitment to the craft to get decent at diagnosing, for me at least.
To be clear, programming modules and keys is not diagnostics. It's programming, which is sitting down tapping on a laptop. There is no diagnostics involved in that. Finding an intermittent short on an interior lights fuse is diagnostics.
U explained this perfectly. U can verify that once u become a diagnostic tech it can literally be a whole different world. Dont do it. Stick to the gravy train as long as u can
I see the Snap on vantage pro in the background. I still use mine when not using my 4ch scope. Anyone in here use a propane enrichment tool for diagnostic work? Like AF/o2 sensors, converter codes, Rich/lean conditions, misfires, vacuum leaks. Injector issues. Speaking of communication networks causing issues. My latest one was two days ago. Back up camera was causing no communication in many modules. check engine light, ABS/traction, EPS, erratic transmission shift issues. RPM and temp gauge dropping in and out intermittently.
Get a job at a dealership. They send you to factory training that you typically don't have to pay for. Also, the types of jobs you get working at a dealer are completely different than what you see at an independent shop. Dealers typically supply a scan tool and special service tools. Other tools you may want to buy are a Good DVOM and a quality set of test leads. Interior trim tools and wire repair tools are also important to have. Where you currently work, try to get big interior jobs. Pulling dashboards, door latches, headliners, sunroofs, taking seats apart, airbags, seatbelts, carpet removal and install, module replacements and programming, etc.... If you can't get to it, you can't diagnose it. The most important thing is to help other techs in the shop. If you see someone struggling with a gas tank, don't wait for them to call you over. Drop what you're doing and run over to help them. Any time you're asked to help with something, do it immediately and with a good attitude. Nothing can help or hurt you more than your relationships with other people in the shop. Before you get sent to school, you'll be assigned online classes. Get them done right away. It shows your commitment to the job and you'll need to have certain online classes finished before you can get sent to a real classroom.
What kind of entry level scope would you recommended getting that won’t break the bank. I’ve been working at a Honda dealer for 5 plus years got my master certification. I’m a solid diag tech. Haven’t needed a scope yet to diag all the cars I’ve done so far. But I can always learn more.
Just replace the two wires ,come on hey it's just another job you can get that done between free inspections and oil change rotate riding with customers for intermittent rattle
Purely being a smart-ass, theoretically you don't need an impact. Just need a 1/2" drive ratchet and socket...lolol.... Yes, I greatly prefer impacts myself, been wrenching for decades
I don’t know how people fix stuff without knowing complex diag. Almost all the vehicles I deal with have electronic diag. Just today I had a Chevy that wouldn’t regen…..because the HVAC module is bad. Who would even think to look at an in dash module for a regen issue. This is one of those issues that took the ability to read information and schematics along with using a DVOM and a scope to verify CAN-bus output to find. How are techs who can’t do this fairly basic stuff able to do work? Not to sound like an elitist, but if you can’t do electronic diag you’re not really a “tech”
Would you believe its easier to build and fabricate race cars in all facets than to be a diag tech at an independent, so many different fucking cars you have to understand. Maybe im just stupid but those diag guys are legit
@@mph5896 I stick to my lil diagnosis that I know.....and when it comes down to digging deep in my diag bag.....then that's when I'll put my thinking cap on. But being a Diag Tech....I'll leave that up to that guy🧐
This is why I quit being a mechanic. Diagnostic mechanics are not paid well for the amount of knowledge they have. I equate it to an engineer-level amount of knowledge.
I do wonder if it's worth it. You're the man but nobody wants to pay you for being the man. You get all the headaches and the other guys get to hang pads. It's the only field that I know of that is set up in such a manner that the most capable person can make the least amount of money since what they do takes more time and extensive knowledge than the simple stuff.
Famous comment I get from people is”your gonna charge me just to look at it”,my response is to step out the door and look at the car and say that’s looking at it.
" but Autozone diagnosed it for free already with their thingy , You're jist trying to rip me off "
Not kidding this was said to me less than 40 minutes ago.
I USUALLY JUST GLANCE OUT THE WINDOW. SAVE THE STEPS AND TIME OF GOING OUTSIDE.
That's awesome 🤣
Only industry in existence where people somehow, someway think they shouldn't pay you for your time and they don't think twice about it
Mechanics are treated like subhumans
the only big money I've seen in diagnostics is how much it costs to get tooled up to work on all sorts of systems
Its funny isnt it. You buy an impact gun, you'll make the money back on the first set of tie rods you replace. Somebody's car doesn't start cause the fucking door control module went bad? $4000 for the automotive scope cause you might as well buy once cry once, $3500 for the tool that will program the new module in... $200-300 diag, $100 profit on the part, $300 labor including programming. Diagnostics is something every shop needs, but it has to be a hobby too because tooling is not a game anymore... any damn thing you need is at least $400. The shop purchasing it barely makes any sense, because realistically in every shop only one person knows how to use it... the rest can barely turn a multimeter to read volts. So the tool is worthless when the guy leaves. So you gotta have a guy thats the highest paid in the shop to do the lowest paying jobs in the shop. Ass backwards. Poor soul that does the diag in a shop. I'd know, I'm that poor soul.
Don't even get me started on the fact that during the time it took to figure that out, the guy in the next bay did 3 brake jobs at $500 labor each.
YES, training, if you haven’t learned to be proficient with a DVOM you cannot expect to pickup a scanner or scope and expect to be able to diagnose modern automobiles. Knowing basic electrical is essential, even for a mid level tech, electronics are not going away, communication systems are more and more prevalent with each new model, what used to be circuitry, like lamps and wipers will be communicating over network to modules, it’s happening. The days of harness repair are all but gone, if you make a repair attempt to a safety system harness you are liable for any consequences if the repair fails, communication wires to ABS, power steering, ADAS, BSM, SRS, and thats just the common knowledge systems, wipers and exterior lighting are a couple others. If y’all thinking a wire repair is worth having that liability is worth it, well I hope you’re doing OEM quality work, because times are changing rapidly in this field. How about this question , “you’re food only had one pubic hair in it, why did you send the whole plate back?” A wire break in the middle of a harness is the same, if it were your own pube, sure pick it out, but when it’s someone else’s, you’re gonna need a fresh plate.
I'm ok with being a mid level tech, hardcore diagnostics gives me a major headache.
Should be the aspirational goal of many mid-level techs. Seems to be where the future is. As you said learn the fundamentals, it’s not just plug and play, no matter how much you spent on your scan tool.
I'm transitioning into automotive diagnostics from computer networking and I just had to re-clone my home network because I needed to do billable tech service on a NEW scan tool because it needed THAT many software updates. So, in order to use this new tool I had to leverage my background in network topology, operating systems, electronics and software configuration. I only see the field becoming radically more technical and inaccessible to many, many people. Sorry to say. The consumer just keeps demanding larger and larger power plants, which require more and more sophisticated service. Simple as.
I took a electrical diag position in a UAW factory back in September and lemme tell ya its been rough. Our new truck we launched has 9 CAN networks on the higher end units. I’m miles ahead of where i was but still have so much more to go. I sure as hell would never want to do this work on flat rate.
EXACTLY ! Diagnostic tech as a career ? Madness I tells ya. Unless you don't care about making $. Let's talk about the least paying , most frustrating part of auto repair ... uuh anyone ? Using a scope to diagnose ? hahahhhaaaa. Do you have a known good signal ? Are you sure the amplitude and frequency and pattern are correct ? Been there , started using a scope in the 90's. If you can diagnose multiple CAN networks and program modules for multiple cars get out of this so called business and make real $ in the hi tech industry networks.. And don't even tell me ,haters, how it is, I was diagnosing GM and Ford product in the 90's with all their trash electronics, modules, PCM failures, wiring harness rub through..etc. rant off.
Bernie at Automotive Test Solutions is another I like to watch because he gets some weird ones.
Yes, Bernie is one of the ones I watch religiously when he posts....
Bernie is GOATed
Couldn't agree more
Thanks for the shout out!
Electric/Electronic diagnosis is where this industry is headed . In future the easy gravy work like engine oil changes will be a thing of the past so there’s no better time to add diag skills to your capabilities than right now 👍 Of course you still have to be willing to do the gravy work if that’s all there is in the shop that day because it makes the company good money but having good accurate diag skills will serve you well in the not to distant future 👍
Gravy? Hey man, to my millenial ass... real gravy is sitting in that seat and decoding the mysteries of that OBD-II port. Just have to understand the software.
so instead of repairing one wire you sold an entire harness? find where its broken, run a jumper.
That was my take away. If the harness melted it would make sense to replace it. Don’t know the particulars with that one.
You missed his point. In order to repair the harness it would have to be removed. Might as well just go ahead and replace it.
There's another method of sniping it at both ends and running a new wire/cable.
EVs and Hybrids are going to be the future. Less engine, more computers. You’re right. Roll with the times or be left behind.
I would also suggest subscribing to some electronics channels like EEVblog and Learn Electronics Repair. Knowing how circuits and components work is very helpful. The line between automotive and electronics repair is starting to blur. Not saying you need to work on SMD’s, but knowledge of how to look at a PCB and know what is going on is pretty useful.
Chevy wiring is absolutely abhorrent. It’s unfair to the consumer/ car owners
Flat Rate Master.. I agree 100% with you Mike. Just because you buy an expensive scan tool does not mean you know how to use it. I've seen that too many times on TH-cam.. Training is key.
Thank you for explaining the diagnostic world.
There are also some incredibly good books available. It's old fashioned maybe, but to me the learning is faster than having to go to classes and/or listen to people talking on YT. In the end, each individual has to do their own learning. No-one can just upload knowledge into their head. Books for the win.
Out where I am at, people are used to the parts cannon approach of repairs. They have a hard time believing that you need to diagnose properly to save them the heartache of unneeded parts.
Good advice and I love the sands of time shirt from Gamers Nexus.
Shotgun diagnostics is haakan light. Get it right!
Just bring back the cars from the 1960 so everyone can fix them in driveway.
😂😂😂. My wife says the exact same thing!
Scanner Danner is dope! That dude has a lot of knowledge and explains the info very well.learned alot from him👍🏽
In the not so far off future a good Diagnostic Technician will need an electrical/electronic engineering degree.
No diag techs around here, just shotgunners and parts hangers. Heck, most guys around here don't even know how to use a testlight. Still shops around here without diag tools or service info. Sigh.
Yes, you have to become obsessed with learning and applying it via practice at your work. Go home train a couple hours learn something become an addict then have some more. I was addicted to buying all the tools and learning it then applying it, absolutely obsessed over it lol. So yes, its not just try it at work a lil bust out some r&r then go home and chill, it complete obsession and commitment to the craft to get decent at diagnosing, for me at least.
To be clear, programming modules and keys is not diagnostics. It's programming, which is sitting down tapping on a laptop. There is no diagnostics involved in that. Finding an intermittent short on an interior lights fuse is diagnostics.
Flat rate master for president. Relatable, intelligent, great communicator, not biased, and honest with best intentions for everyone.
U explained this perfectly. U can verify that once u become a diagnostic tech it can literally be a whole different world. Dont do it. Stick to the gravy train as long as u can
The gravy train wears on the body though.
@@zoticus1 so does heavy diag lol crawling under a dash to check can bus wires for the radio on a Prius sucks lol
Cars behave become too complicated. Add that to the shortage of GOOD auto technicians. I see a grim future ahead.
Good advice
I’ve always compared an everyday tech to a diagnostic tech as a voodoo doctor compared to a Harvard trained physician
😂😂 I love that comparison
Yea
Nope I want the gravy all of it..
I'd rather pull a motor than chase a wiring issue any moment in my life....
Nah I don't wanna do it!!! But somebody's got to
U learn as u mess up! That’s some real truth
I see the Snap on vantage pro in the background. I still use mine when not using my 4ch scope. Anyone in here use a propane enrichment tool for diagnostic work? Like AF/o2 sensors, converter codes, Rich/lean conditions, misfires, vacuum leaks. Injector issues.
Speaking of communication networks causing issues. My latest one was two days ago. Back up camera was causing no communication in many modules. check engine light, ABS/traction, EPS, erratic transmission shift issues. RPM and temp gauge dropping in and out intermittently.
Any helpfully tips on someone who's starting to do diagnostic an ways to help
Get a job at a dealership. They send you to factory training that you typically don't have to pay for. Also, the types of jobs you get working at a dealer are completely different than what you see at an independent shop. Dealers typically supply a scan tool and special service tools. Other tools you may want to buy are a Good DVOM and a quality set of test leads. Interior trim tools and wire repair tools are also important to have.
Where you currently work, try to get big interior jobs. Pulling dashboards, door latches, headliners, sunroofs, taking seats apart, airbags, seatbelts, carpet removal and install, module replacements and programming, etc.... If you can't get to it, you can't diagnose it.
The most important thing is to help other techs in the shop. If you see someone struggling with a gas tank, don't wait for them to call you over. Drop what you're doing and run over to help them. Any time you're asked to help with something, do it immediately and with a good attitude. Nothing can help or hurt you more than your relationships with other people in the shop.
Before you get sent to school, you'll be assigned online classes. Get them done right away. It shows your commitment to the job and you'll need to have certain online classes finished before you can get sent to a real classroom.
What kind of entry level scope would you recommended getting that won’t break the bank. I’ve been working at a Honda dealer for 5 plus years got my master certification. I’m a solid diag tech. Haven’t needed a scope yet to diag all the cars I’ve done so far. But I can always learn more.
Hantex they're the makers for autel scope. Very cheap like $240.00
Just replace the two wires ,come on hey it's just another job you can get that done between free inspections and oil change rotate riding with customers for intermittent rattle
Bypass the circuit
Waaaaa,, I miss doing timing belts all day long, Waaaaaaaaa.
The spread sheet dictates how we work in the shop. It’s all about the budget !!!!! Let’s that what I learned from 4 different dealers over 25 years.
What's a dvom?
My answer to everyone who says you don't need a scope for communication issues is just like you don't need a impact wrench to change a tire.
Purely being a smart-ass, theoretically you don't need an impact. Just need a 1/2" drive ratchet and socket...lolol....
Yes, I greatly prefer impacts myself, been wrenching for decades
@@brianmason8400 That's the whole point of course many things are possible with out a scope, but using one makes it a lot easier.
I don’t know how people fix stuff without knowing complex diag. Almost all the vehicles I deal with have electronic diag. Just today I had a Chevy that wouldn’t regen…..because the HVAC module is bad. Who would even think to look at an in dash module for a regen issue. This is one of those issues that took the ability to read information and schematics along with using a DVOM and a scope to verify CAN-bus output to find. How are techs who can’t do this fairly basic stuff able to do work? Not to sound like an elitist, but if you can’t do electronic diag you’re not really a “tech”
Soon all the networking will switch to electro-optical couplings. Technology does not stop.
Unfortunately not everyone is going to be a Diag individual. I’ve been teaching electrical and I can say not everyone “gets” it.
Would you believe its easier to build and fabricate race cars in all facets than to be a diag tech at an independent, so many different fucking cars you have to understand. Maybe im just stupid but those diag guys are legit
👍👍👍
I used to wanna be a diagnostic tech until I realized how deep it goes.....😳
It's easy if you specialize in one car make. 😉 Do all makes/models🤕
@@mph5896 I stick to my lil diagnosis that I know.....and when it comes down to digging deep in my diag bag.....then that's when I'll put my thinking cap on. But being a Diag Tech....I'll leave that up to that guy🧐
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This is why I quit being a mechanic. Diagnostic mechanics are not paid well for the amount of knowledge they have. I equate it to an engineer-level amount of knowledge.
If you can't diag 95% of Drivability in under an hour your first try. You are not a Diagnostician. Until you reach that keep training.
I do wonder if it's worth it. You're the man but nobody wants to pay you for being the man. You get all the headaches and the other guys get to hang pads. It's the only field that I know of that is set up in such a manner that the most capable person can make the least amount of money since what they do takes more time and extensive knowledge than the simple stuff.