Very good explanation. I believe coming from a dirt background to pavement is easier than the other way around. Learning on dirt you are already used to dealing with reduced traction compared to pavement.
Thanks and I agree. Plenty of circuit people who haven't ever had to catch a slide and with ESC on never will. Just got to learn high slip angles are fun not fast on bitumen!
verry impressive. especially the statement that proffesional drivers are constantly making mistakes but quickly fix them. that's very much true, especially with off road driving. with onroad driving such as formula drivers try to stay inside the traction limits. with offroad the technique is to quickly get in and out of the traction circle. way to put it. great content.
a little touch of handbrake also really helpfull with slowing car, weight shifting to front for more grip. but amount of handbrake is way more trickier than others, however if it understeers it can be more controllable.
RWD understeer is easily corrected by lifting the throttle versus riding the brakes. Steer or slow down, steering being more important. Stomp and steer relying on the ABS is wrong. Steer first, brake second. Even with ABS (which only saves the brake pads from needing replacement), the tires will lock and steer straight ahead
By LFB you are braking the rear wheels but not the front as they are still rotating due to power. This increases the grip demand on the rear without changing the grip demand on the front, therefore reducing understeer.
Robert, in future, could you touch on soft surface (dirt road/sand) oversteer (FWD/AWD) from lifting off the throttle? In my job I drive a Ford Escape in sand, and when lifting off when cornering the rear tends to step out, albeit easily controlled.
Sure, example of lift-over oversteer is in the Traction Circle video -> th-cam.com/video/dZ33KJ1cl_c/w-d-xo.html The way to counter it is to brake less into the corner; so when you turn in there's more weight on the rear wheels, and also less demand for lateral traction. But, it's huge fun to oversteer INTO a corner under brakes, and also really fast when done right as you get the car rotated nicely. Hugely satisfying. If it happens a lot the front/rear grip balance and/or wheel alignment needs work. Tyre pressures, camber, toe, front/rear spring relative spring rates, front/rear swaybar stiffness etc etc.
That might actually help in an academic situation. Not really useful for real world scenarios though, because the feel, feedback and modularity of the handbrake is usually not good enough. After all these things happen in split seconds... However, it is applied in rallying!
Agreed...handbrake is usually to induce something. It is too slow to be corrective action. You need have reacted before you hand gets to the lever. Same reason I don't talk about gear changes. Car control like this is done with pedals and steering wheel.
Good video Robert, but I have some questions and confusion. You mentioned get rid of power when power understeer in FWD, but I found that some internet sources state that jump off the throttle quickly will lead to the lift-off oversteer, so what is the best action when facing the power understeer? Thanks.
Any abrupt change can do more harm than good so they are correct to some degree but inducing oversteer in FWD from power understeer is unlikely especially if you are smooth and reduce just a little.
All very good except that you seemed to contradict yourself regarding slow down or steer- you can’t do both! Because a few sentences later you said exactly that - ease off the brakes then a sentence later you’re going to have to reduce steer!
@@L2SFBC Exactly! So you can and do do both. In my experience it’s all about subtlety and no one rule fits every situation. A very important factor is being aware of the surface you are driving on and it’s current condition. A bend you know very well will have completely different surface traction depending on what has happened recently. Maybe some grit has been dragged out if the verge, maybe heat has brought out some bitumen, has it been dry for a long time and now there is a light rain fall mixing oil and tyre rubber into a slippery compound? Has some diesel been spilt? Of course you couldn’t cover all these in your video but they’re all factors that must be considered when driving at speed. So YES you can and should brake and steer at the same time there is NO rule to say you can’t do both but you do have to know how much of each and when.
@@L2SFBC Hey Robert I'm talking about trying all manner of racing type manoeuvres when you can simply take you foot of the accelerator and push the clutch pedal in. The car will stop doing what you don't want it to do and then you can select first gear and move off again all very safely.
If anybody ever comes across this, trevor was most likely talking about very low speed understeer as shown on the skidpad videos. The Video/Robert is talking about understeer in actual driving and potentially racing, so probably 30km/h+. Do *NOT* engage the clutch during understeer(unless you are a professional and now exactly what you are doing), this is very very very dangerous because it removes enginebreaking in an instant, this can upset the car and will most likely increase understeer.
@@L2SFBC not sure. To your Defense...I was browsing through the video and my impression was it had two sections: understeer when braking and understeer when accelerating. Might be my mistake...
Depends on the situation but I would say it's just a different combination of actions .... less steer then gentle brake to shift weight ...? look up the older rally method of 'Left Foot Brake' this was before stability, traction control and ABS.
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Very good explanation. I believe coming from a dirt background to pavement is easier than the other way around. Learning on dirt you are already used to dealing with reduced traction compared to pavement.
Thanks and I agree. Plenty of circuit people who haven't ever had to catch a slide and with ESC on never will.
Just got to learn high slip angles are fun not fast on bitumen!
This is really useful. Thank you for taking the time to make this video. Stuff like this should be mandatory viewing in Driver's Ed.
thanks, would appreciate a share!
verry impressive. especially the statement that proffesional drivers are constantly making mistakes but quickly fix them. that's very much true, especially with off road driving. with onroad driving such as formula drivers try to stay inside the traction limits. with offroad the technique is to quickly get in and out of the traction circle. way to put it. great content.
Thank you!
You're welcome!
Very good information for Suzuki 4WD owners.
I had a Type 3 VW with extra bricks in the front for better cornering ..... it was a wild ride.
That'd be amazing to watch!!!
I used to carry a bag of horse pellets in the front of my Beetle for the same reason.
Very good explanation thanks Robert. Will definitely try and practice this on our next track day.
Best of luck! Please share!
agree! very good explanation!
these are helpful videos, thank you
Glad you think so!
Brilliant explanation
Thanks!
Thanks please share 👍
a little touch of handbrake also really helpfull with slowing car, weight shifting to front for more grip. but amount of handbrake is way more trickier than others, however if it understeers it can be more controllable.
Negatory. Handbrake always induces oversteer. Understeer indicates a minimal Handbrake situation. Quick reflexes save the day not underperforming
@@luislongoria6621 the last sentence i wrote understeer wrongly, that is oversteer. english is not my native language, sorry :)
Interesting info, thanks mate
Best way to avoid under steer is weld the back diff and make sure its manual. When you experience understeer, do a clutchy.
Thanks, but I think I won't be adding that to the technique list just yet :-)
@L2SFBC 😄 hopefully no body takes my advice seriously.
RWD understeer is easily corrected by lifting the throttle versus riding the brakes. Steer or slow down, steering being more important. Stomp and steer relying on the ABS is wrong. Steer first, brake second. Even with ABS (which only saves the brake pads from needing replacement), the tires will lock and steer straight ahead
Lifting the throttle won't work if you're already off it...
Why do drivers utilise left foot braking in FWD vehicles to reduce understeer? Is that because it's only possible with a stiffer rear?
By LFB you are braking the rear wheels but not the front as they are still rotating due to power. This increases the grip demand on the rear without changing the grip demand on the front, therefore reducing understeer.
@@L2SFBC ohh I understand. So throttle is applied whilst braking. Thanks for clearing that up for me
Yes that's right
Robert, in future, could you touch on soft surface (dirt road/sand) oversteer (FWD/AWD) from lifting off the throttle? In my job I drive a Ford Escape in sand, and when lifting off when cornering the rear tends to step out, albeit easily controlled.
Sure, example of lift-over oversteer is in the Traction Circle video -> th-cam.com/video/dZ33KJ1cl_c/w-d-xo.html
The way to counter it is to brake less into the corner; so when you turn in there's more weight on the rear wheels, and also less demand for lateral traction. But, it's huge fun to oversteer INTO a corner under brakes, and also really fast when done right as you get the car rotated nicely. Hugely satisfying. If it happens a lot the front/rear grip balance and/or wheel alignment needs work. Tyre pressures, camber, toe, front/rear spring relative spring rates, front/rear swaybar stiffness etc etc.
Lifting is understeer, no worries. Firmly apply the throttle and steer in the direction you want to go
I was wondering if some judicious use of the handbrake to transfer weight to the front while reducing braking on the front.
That might actually help in an academic situation. Not really useful for real world scenarios though, because the feel, feedback and modularity of the handbrake is usually not good enough. After all these things happen in split seconds... However, it is applied in rallying!
Agreed...handbrake is usually to induce something. It is too slow to be corrective action. You need have reacted before you hand gets to the lever. Same reason I don't talk about gear changes. Car control like this is done with pedals and steering wheel.
@@L2SFBC Good points both!
Think how a drift car is set up with a hydraulic rear override handbrake to swing the rear out ..... probably get you into more mischief.
My front tires are low. Is this sign lol
Good video Robert, but I have some questions and confusion.
You mentioned get rid of power when power understeer in FWD, but I found that some internet sources state that jump off the throttle quickly will lead to the lift-off oversteer, so what is the best action when facing the power understeer? Thanks.
Any abrupt change can do more harm than good so they are correct to some degree but inducing oversteer in FWD from power understeer is unlikely especially if you are smooth and reduce just a little.
All very good except that you seemed to contradict yourself regarding slow down or steer- you can’t do both! Because a few sentences later you said exactly that - ease off the brakes then a sentence later you’re going to have to reduce steer!
It's a combination - look at the circle of traction and see what you can do to get back within its limits.
@@L2SFBC Exactly! So you can and do do both. In my experience it’s all about subtlety and no one rule fits every situation. A very important factor is being aware of the surface you are driving on and it’s current condition. A bend you know very well will have completely different surface traction depending on what has happened recently. Maybe some grit has been dragged out if the verge, maybe heat has brought out some bitumen, has it been dry for a long time and now there is a light rain fall mixing oil and tyre rubber into a slippery compound? Has some diesel been spilt? Of course you couldn’t cover all these in your video but they’re all factors that must be considered when driving at speed. So YES you can and should brake and steer at the same time there is NO rule to say you can’t do both but you do have to know how much of each and when.
I'd just lift my foot off either peddle. The racing car mentality does not work.
What do you mean the racing car mentality doesn't work?
@@L2SFBC Hey Robert I'm talking about trying all manner of racing type manoeuvres when you can simply take you foot of the accelerator and push the clutch pedal in. The car will stop doing what you don't want it to do and then you can select first gear and move off again all very safely.
Hmm not necessarily. Cutting drive may be the worst thing to do.
If anybody ever comes across this, trevor was most likely talking about very low speed understeer as shown on the skidpad videos.
The Video/Robert is talking about understeer in actual driving and potentially racing, so probably 30km/h+.
Do *NOT* engage the clutch during understeer(unless you are a professional and now exactly what you are doing), this is very very very dangerous because it removes enginebreaking in an instant, this can upset the car and will most likely increase understeer.
I‘m missing the bit where you’re fixing understeer under no power and no braking.
Didn't I cover that?
@@L2SFBC not sure. To your Defense...I was browsing through the video and my impression was it had two sections: understeer when braking and understeer when accelerating. Might be my mistake...
Hmm maybe I did miss understeer no power or brakes. Well that's easy. Reduce steering angle, ease of throttle, wait for grip!
Depends on the situation but I would say it's just a different combination of actions .... less steer then gentle brake to shift weight ...? look up the older rally method of 'Left Foot Brake' this was before stability, traction control and ABS.
Do whatever you need to in order to get that traction circle under control!