Mono is not "everything minus the sides" it's L+R . Which leaves the side channel as the opposite , which is indeed 180 out of phase because that's the opposite of mono (which is completely in phase). Boosting the side channel DOES matter because if you're S channel is so much louder yes it's sounds nice and wide but you're mono mix will be a completely different mix. Which in club music you do NOT want. Your mono mix should have a VERY similar balance /vibe/ intention so it sounds like the same mix whatever it is played, *_especially_* the club. (Btw Ableton's stock eq has all of this functionality you are showing you don't need proQ3)
Hi 👋 First part of your comment: you are wrong my friend, as was I :) mono is NOT L+R. In the digital world mono is (L+R)/2 which is also the average of L and R check here help.ableton.com/hc/en-us/articles/360009201540-Mono-Stereo-Conversions-in-Live (as you probably know, decreasing the amplitude by 6dB means halving the amplitude). And that makes all the difference!I also thought that mono was L+R but here what I found shocking: if M = L + R (sometimes it is also called 'center') and we agree that the left channel of the sides is sidesL = L - M and the right channel of the sides is sidesR = R - M. Then we get, replacing L+R instead of M, sidesL = L - L - R = - R and sidesR = R - L - R = -L. So effectively if mono was L + R we would not have the sides in M/S mode with inverted polarity but we would just swap and invert the L and R channel of the original sound (and it would sound exactly the same as the original stereo sound to our ears). Only if M = (L+R)/2 you get sidesL = -sidesR i.e. 180 phase shift (you can check that at 3:50 in the video). Isn't that SHOCKING?😅 Implementing it like this makes sense from a DSP and from plugin manufacturer’s/Ableton perspective because would not just do a sum and get almost double amplitude when mono-ing but instead divide the sum by 2 to keep the amplitude of stereo and mono in the same range. And this was also shocking for me to realise because, like you, I thought when I mono stuff in Ableton I get L + R (maybe that’s the case in the analog mixing world, but I have no idea about that) Second part of your comment: that’s exactly what I meant?!Probably I didn’t manage to say this clearly during the video :( but we totally agree: boosting sides is really bad for how your track will sound in mono (the affects sound changes its ‘nature’) and for clubs. There are better ways to get width. Third part: it’s so much more clicking with the EQ eight and it’s so small..I prefer Pro Q is more handy ;) But hey, thanks for chiming in 😃
Yeah you need to introduce phase shift or phase offset to retain the sides when collapsing. I don’t use that plugin but I’m sure you can introduce phase shifting with it. Research mid side with phase shifting😊
If you target club/party/festival you might consider keeping an eye on your mix in mono. Would be quite dissapointing finally having your track played fucking loud and the magic not being there anymore because your mix is collapsing in mono.
@@themorphingorb I'm right but I do agree stereo is much more important if you consider 100 plays in club (which is quite exeptional for a producer not being a succesfull DJ) vs 100.000 plays on the streaming platforms mostly in stereo playback.
Try turning the + and - on one of your speakers around with such stereo mixes 🤣😂🤣😂 Also try to think of this when mixing for radio because most grocery shops have their wiring mixed up this 😊
But the difference is a mono signal. How come that when you isolate the sides you have a stereo signal?And how come the sideL and the sideR are identical but flipped in polarity? It's because you duplicate the side recording and invert the polarity if you record with mics and you subtract the average if you are working in the digital world. Not so easy as you put it in my opinion ;)
@solarj because SIDE and MID are only one channel each :) that's how they are encoded (and decoded) from and to the dual stereo. Stereo is two channels, and M/S is also two channels:) Nothing ever becomes more than two channels. And yes, "Mid" is the sum of, and "Side" is the difference between L and R stereo channels. Hope that clears is up. MS can even be referred to as sum and difference, it's also common with recording mics.
Finally...When you're listening to "only the sides" what you're hearing is all the frequency content that is completely out of phase. Which just means practically that If one sound or instrument, for example in a mix, is 100% out of phase: it will be heard in the "side" channel, but missing from the summed "mid" channel. And therefore in mono playback, not heard at all.
@@machineagevoodoo2106 Thanks a lot for elaborating 🫶 I love nerdy discussions! But I have another question for you: first you said “because SIDE and MID are only one channel each” and then “When you're listening to "only the sides" what you're hearing is all the frequency content that is completely out of phase.” I think the first statement is perfectly fine in the analog world, but sometimes in DSP, tricks and alternative solutions are needed to achieve the same result as analog. Let me elaborate. Considering both your statements: How can a signal (SIDE) be "one channel" and still be "completely out of phase"? (This is assuming we agree that when you cut all the MID in an M/S EQ, you are listening to the SIDE). The concept of phase cancellation doesn't apply to a single-channel (mono) signal. Based on the experiments I show in the video, I think the way M/S is implemented in Ableton and M/S plugins is that the SIDE is treated as a stereo channel (not dual mono, because they have a 180-degree phase shift). Specifically, it seems like: sideL = L - (L + R) / 2 sideR = R - (L + R) / 2 This approach effectively "mean centers" each signal, and the resulting signals are 180 degrees out of phase, which we see clearly in the video around 1:00. This is a similar concept to statistical mean-centering, which subtracts the average of two signals from each signal separately to obtain opposite polarity or 'zero-average' signals. So, to conclude, I still believe that-whatever the theory says-programmers at Ableton or FabFilter needed to find a practical way of translating the "difference" into a perceptible spatial cue in a stereo playback system. Because (L - R) is conceptually a single channel, while we hear the SIDE in Ableton as a very wide stereo channel. Happy to change my mind through further discussion though :)
No I have never recorded M/S indeed - I was too busy getting my PhD in Physics ehehe. The decoding matrix is confusing and misleading in my opinion because S = R - L is a mono signal. to obtain the infamous side channel in M/S EQ plugins you THEN you need to duplicate AND invert the polarity of R - L and this is something no one talks about on youtube - at least the dance music producers community. I have seen many M/S tuts no one highlighted this fact, which I, personally, found shocking ;) p.s. the first diagram here is clear to me on how to decode/encode M/S from L/R www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/q-how-does-mid-sides-recording-actually-work
LOL. Neither shockin, nor new. Damn, I wish all these disinformed audio production youtubers would get a day job instead of talking shot on TH-cam about audio.
I never used Mid\Side EQ, will look into it,-Thx 👍👍👍
It’s cool if used carefully. The second application I show in the ‘tips and tricks’ pet of the video is my favorite :)
That is pretty shocking. I didn't realize it before. Makes sense now. Thank you very much for the explanation. Great stuff.
@@andypatbath right?? 😂
Mono is not "everything minus the sides" it's L+R . Which leaves the side channel as the opposite , which is indeed 180 out of phase because that's the opposite of mono (which is completely in phase).
Boosting the side channel DOES matter because if you're S channel is so much louder yes it's sounds nice and wide but you're mono mix will be a completely different mix. Which in club music you do NOT want.
Your mono mix should have a VERY similar balance /vibe/ intention so it sounds like the same mix whatever it is played, *_especially_* the club.
(Btw Ableton's stock eq has all of this functionality you are showing you don't need proQ3)
Hi 👋
First part of your comment: you are wrong my friend, as was I :) mono is NOT L+R.
In the digital world mono is (L+R)/2 which is also the average of L and R check here help.ableton.com/hc/en-us/articles/360009201540-Mono-Stereo-Conversions-in-Live (as you probably know, decreasing the amplitude by 6dB means halving the amplitude). And that makes all the difference!I also thought that mono was L+R but here what I found shocking: if M = L + R (sometimes it is also called 'center') and we agree that the left channel of the sides is sidesL = L - M and the right channel of the sides is sidesR = R - M. Then we get, replacing L+R instead of M, sidesL = L - L - R = - R and sidesR = R - L - R = -L.
So effectively if mono was L + R we would not have the sides in M/S mode with inverted polarity but we would just swap and invert the L and R channel of the original sound (and it would sound exactly the same as the original stereo sound to our ears). Only if M = (L+R)/2 you get sidesL = -sidesR i.e. 180 phase shift (you can check that at 3:50 in the video). Isn't that SHOCKING?😅
Implementing it like this makes sense from a DSP and from plugin manufacturer’s/Ableton perspective because would not just do a sum and get almost double amplitude when mono-ing but instead divide the sum by 2 to keep the amplitude of stereo and mono in the same range. And this was also shocking for me to realise because, like you, I thought when I mono stuff in Ableton I get L + R (maybe that’s the case in the analog mixing world, but I have no idea about that)
Second part of your comment: that’s exactly what I meant?!Probably I didn’t manage to say this clearly during the video :( but we totally agree: boosting sides is really bad for how your track will sound in mono (the affects sound changes its ‘nature’) and for clubs. There are better ways to get width.
Third part: it’s so much more clicking with the EQ eight and it’s so small..I prefer Pro Q is more handy ;) But hey, thanks for chiming in 😃
exactly. its the sum. what he is "disappointed" in this video that people are "usually saying", is incorrect to begin with. #smh
@@Bthelick "left channel of the sides". You never give up do you? There are only two channels altogether! They are encoded and decoded!
Yeah you need to introduce phase shift or phase offset to retain the sides when collapsing. I don’t use that plugin but I’m sure you can introduce phase shifting with it. Research mid side with phase shifting😊
if you switch to linear phase, you will get very different results. zero latency is really only meant for live tracking.
🤔 I need to try this
To those who listen in mono: get a goddam color tv!
Great stuff, buddy;) Much appreciated!
Ahah thanks buddy!
If you target club/party/festival you might consider keeping an eye on your mix in mono. Would be quite dissapointing finally having your track played fucking loud and the magic not being there anymore because your mix is collapsing in mono.
@@le-berry Yep. I know clubs/festivals usually play stuff in mono because of the big PA stages I guess? But you're right;)
@@themorphingorb I'm right but I do agree stereo is much more important if you consider 100 plays in club (which is quite exeptional for a producer not being a succesfull DJ) vs 100.000 plays on the streaming platforms mostly in stereo playback.
My gosh!!! I think i need a private lesson 😂 sounds too complicated for me! Thanks for the video! Will investigate more
Any time!
Try turning the + and - on one of your speakers around with such stereo mixes 🤣😂🤣😂
Also try to think of this when mixing for radio because most grocery shops have their wiring mixed up this 😊
Oh wow and why is that?they just don’t know how to connect the cables so you have a 50-50 chance of hearing an inverted signal?
Its easier to grasp when you consider that mono is the sum, and the side channel is the difference. Voila
But the difference is a mono signal. How come that when you isolate the sides you have a stereo signal?And how come the sideL and the sideR are identical but flipped in polarity?
It's because you duplicate the side recording and invert the polarity if you record with mics and you subtract the average if you are working in the digital world.
Not so easy as you put it in my opinion ;)
@solarj because SIDE and MID are only one channel each :) that's how they are encoded (and decoded) from and to the dual stereo. Stereo is two channels, and M/S is also two channels:) Nothing ever becomes more than two channels. And yes, "Mid" is the sum of, and "Side" is the difference between L and R stereo channels. Hope that clears is up. MS can even be referred to as sum and difference, it's also common with recording mics.
Finally...When you're listening to "only the sides" what you're hearing is all the frequency content that is completely out of phase. Which just means practically that If one sound or instrument, for example in a mix, is 100% out of phase: it will be heard in the "side" channel, but missing from the summed "mid" channel. And therefore in mono playback, not heard at all.
@@machineagevoodoo2106 Thanks a lot for elaborating 🫶 I love nerdy discussions!
But I have another question for you: first you said “because SIDE and MID are only one channel each” and then “When you're listening to "only the sides" what you're hearing is all the frequency content that is completely out of phase.”
I think the first statement is perfectly fine in the analog world, but sometimes in DSP, tricks and alternative solutions are needed to achieve the same result as analog. Let me elaborate.
Considering both your statements: How can a signal (SIDE) be "one channel" and still be "completely out of phase"?
(This is assuming we agree that when you cut all the MID in an M/S EQ, you are listening to the SIDE). The concept of phase cancellation doesn't apply to a single-channel (mono) signal.
Based on the experiments I show in the video, I think the way M/S is implemented in Ableton and M/S plugins is that the SIDE is treated as a stereo channel (not dual mono, because they have a 180-degree phase shift). Specifically, it seems like:
sideL = L - (L + R) / 2
sideR = R - (L + R) / 2
This approach effectively "mean centers" each signal, and the resulting signals are 180 degrees out of phase, which we see clearly in the video around 1:00. This is a similar concept to statistical mean-centering, which subtracts the average of two signals from each signal separately to obtain opposite polarity or 'zero-average' signals.
So, to conclude, I still believe that-whatever the theory says-programmers at Ableton or FabFilter needed to find a practical way of translating the "difference" into a perceptible spatial cue in a stereo playback system. Because (L - R) is conceptually a single channel, while we hear the SIDE in Ableton as a very wide stereo channel.
Happy to change my mind through further discussion though :)
I forget the technical reason, but basically don't go crazy with side boosts and you'll be fine.
yep :) this comment is the tl;dr version of the video ehehe thanks!
I guess you've never recorded in mid+side before if this is news to you. That's just how the decoding matrix works.
No I have never recorded M/S indeed - I was too busy getting my PhD in Physics ehehe.
The decoding matrix is confusing and misleading in my opinion because S = R - L is a mono signal. to obtain the infamous side channel in M/S EQ plugins you THEN you need to duplicate AND invert the polarity of R - L and this is something no one talks about on youtube - at least the dance music producers community. I have seen many M/S tuts no one highlighted this fact, which I, personally, found shocking ;)
p.s. the first diagram here is clear to me on how to decode/encode M/S from L/R www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/q-how-does-mid-sides-recording-actually-work
LOL. Neither shockin, nor new. Damn, I wish all these disinformed audio production youtubers would get a day job instead of talking shot on TH-cam about audio.
You’re so cool
@@stansteez 🫶
@@llasch28 🫶🤗🫶
So. You just heard of MS. Wow. Wonders of TH-cam.