As a PhD engineer and vehicle dynamics consultant, it is obvious from fundamental statics considerations that any brake that can lock the wheel is powerful enough. Once the wheel is locked, the tire/road coefficient of friction is what limits deceleration rate and acts as the limiting mechanical fuse. If your rim or disc brakes were 100,000 times more powerful than they actually are, but the ones you have can lock the wheel, that extra 100,000 times in braking power is completely irrelevant. The carbon rim business is a consideration, but there are aluminum rims that are almost as light as carbon rims (some are even LIGHTER than most carbon rims), so moment of inertia isn't a factor. As for the aerodynamic advantages of some carbon rims, you can find that in a wind tunnel but unless you are a Tour de France rider, you probably won't notice much difference, except of course in a crosswind, where they're a big pain! But other things ARE factors in choosing a rim vs. disc brake: cost, adjustability of the brakes, serviceability, etc. Brake "feel" is subjective and an individual thing, so there are no engineering issues on that point at all. Yes discs are better in wet weather and in dissipating heat during long descents, and of course there is the wow factor and show-off level at club rides. As I live in flatland Illinois, I'll stick with my Dura Ace rim brakes.
Being able to lock the wheel on rims doesn't mean they're equally as powerful. Modulation and control matters, which discs have vastly more of. There's a huge difference between a light squeeze to stop quickly versus clamping down with both hands with a deathgrip.
“If you brake, you lose.” - Mario Cippolini I started racing at club level in the mid-Atlantic, US 40 years ago. I have done hundreds of races in all weather conditions and have never experienced any of the braking issues that people talk about. I currently have a ~dozen rim brake bikes, 5 with carbon braking surface, and have never encountered any of the problems that are so often described. I have never worn out the brake track on a set of rims. I can modulate speed in the wet or dry, with the primary limiter being tire contact patch friction. I recognize that others may have a different experience and may honestly prefer disc brake road bikes…but it is ironic to me that DA concludes that the improved braking performance of his disc brakes is worth the weight penalty, but then he comes back with a video a month later on weight weenie hacks to reduce the weight of his disc brake bike!
I've only ridden rim brake bikes, never disc brakes, and have never raced, nor intend to convert my current one and only bike to disc or buy a disc brake one any time soon, so I'm just speculating here. But perhaps disc brakes do actually make sense in certain situations that didn't apply to you. Like, less experienced riders who ride in the rain, or down steep and winding mountain roads, and the like. But there's got to be a reason that pro riders have mostly if not entirely switched to disc brakes despite the weight penalties and other issues with them. Perhaps it's a little like the argument for switching from manual to auto transmissions in cars. For most people and in many situations it makes sense, especially given that the latter are now mostly more fuel-efficient than manuals. But for driving enthusiasts who know how to handle a manual transmission car, it sometimes makes sense to stick with manual. You're in the latter category, in terms of your bike handling skills, but most people are not, and thus auto transmissions, and disc brakes, might make more sense for them.
@@HabaneroTi nearly all cars i drove in my entire life where manuals. Off all cars i drove from friends, work or family only two where automatic. (Germany if someone cares)
I think the biggest disadvantage is when you have carbon wheels. The heat rim breaks generate on aluminum in a descend doesn’t damage the wheel. Carbon wheels are different; they are susceptible to heat and can delaminate with excessive heat. In those cases the disc break is a much better option. But for aluminum wheels I see no need for discs
In theory that's true, but unfortunately the reliability and temperature resistance of the disc rotors is such that they can easily warp on long mountain descents
@@michaelclements4664 True! Not the best idea if one has to spend quite a home budget on this. Though I have nothing against rm based carbon wheels (just use dedicated brake pads), let's not forget they were invented to do races, but rather not race "to the supermarket". As such, they should last quite long. A decade? Possibly more... People just get reach with time and can afford more. Carbon technology also got broader use in road bikes for 'common people'. Still, they/we sometimes buy things we can't sustain later on and get pissed about things, they simply wear, don't last forever. Also not every biker has a knowledge or passion to quit other stuff just to build wheels from scratch. I do, but yes, I stick to the aluminium rims as well.
The downfall of the rim brake came after the advent of light weight carbon rims, where rim brakes performed poorer in wet conditions, and because rim brakes wear out expensive rims. replacing expensive carbon rims after a couple of years was expensive for most people. That being said I still use rim brake and aluminum rims. I find they work fine for where I live and how I ride. I may change my mind after I move to the Dolomites.
I'm on a entry level bike, giant contend 3, apart from my dislike for the FD from claris, my only issue are the breaks. Might be because they are lower quality or simply because they aren't suited for my weight at around 90kg. If i get a bit of water on the ground i always leave my house praying that nothing wrong happens. but it's better being prepared than sorry, so i'm looking to but a new disc brake bike and retire this one to a home training setup. Slowly getting there on the budget, maybe by this time next year will buy the old orbea orca road bike or a scott addict gravel 30, as it is more capable as a one bike garage, and taking this giant out on the hotter days
Yes, same for me. That has not been a good argument for me to change my bike. I ride mostly flat roads and I never go out if I know it’s going to rain. I am not training for anything; so I don’t care about getting wet on the bike.
I visited Berlin last week and was impressed by every bike under the sun being used, from old racing bike classics of the 60s and 70s to new exotic titanium lifestyle models. ultimately, as long as bikes can brake safely, anything goes.
Disk brakes are a way for the bike industry to sell more bikes by attempting to convince us that bikes are now worth £12k because of modern technology. I ride a 2015 carbon Synapse with rim brakes which cost my about £1300 at the time. Bike industry are making fools out if people with no common sense
@@truvc pls explain to me why bikes from before 2019 where it was still common to see TdF using rim brake bikes still stopped fine? I have a rim brake bike. It stops fine. Never crashed because I couldn't stop. If you argued disc is better because it doesn't wear out the rim surface and slowly destroy the wheel I would absolutely agree with you totally. But braking? It only suddenly became an, 'oooh eeerrr bit sketchy riding tim brakes! Do they even stop?' when the marketing for disc brakes became the new 'essential thing'. Sure, if your bike has discs that's great, peace of mind, long lasting wheels. But if it has rim bakes that's fine, too. Simple to adjust, pads are cheap, light af, looks very tidy. Lots of pros too.
Simply a symbiotic relationship between consumers (us) who always want MORE and BETTER, and businesses (them) who are happy to have no choice but to give us what folks are asking for. We're perhaps not to blame for wanting more and businesses probably aren't to blame for trying to stay in business. Do and buy what you enjoy!
As a heavy man who rides in London every day I can say that disc brakes have kept me alive compared to rim brakes that almost got me killed so many times. There are obviously people that prefer rim brakes and that’s awesome but genuinely to me I would rather run to work than go back to rim brakes.
In 2019 I bought my first road bike (a caad12 actually!) so every other bike after that had also been disc equipped so I didnt know any different (also made the switch to electronic shifting pretty early on) Until this year when I picked up my first 'full mechanical' road bike, and i absolutely love it. To me, there is nothing more satisfying than the feeling a well set up fully mechanical bike. Braking on the carbon rims with black prince pads is plenty enough for a recreational rider, cloncking through the gears, I love it. No discs catching, or sceaching - no centring pads and truing rotors. Plus, for me personally the brake feel is way superior to that of a disc set up. Its hard to explain, without sounding like Jermy Clarkson or something - but I think that there is more of a 'at one with the bike' kind of thing going on with a full mechanical set up when compared to the latest and greatest in technology. All that said, my rim brake bike will only ever be used on the dry days, and to me thats where disc brakes have the major advantage. No matter that the weather, they will still perform. No worrying about inferior braking in the wet, or picking up road debris that is going to wear away your rims. Living in the UK my disc bike will no doubt get used more than its counter part - but there is definitely something about my rim braked bike, wether is a novelty factor or not I do not entirely know, but it definitely puts more of a smile on my face.
Depends on your wheelset. I have 3 sets of Reynolds tubs, the only recommended pads are their ($$) cryo blue power pads. I'm reluctant to try any other pads with them.
I think it depends on the brand of carbon wheels. I had some Reynolds carbon wheels that were so-so with Swiss Stop carbon pads in dry weather, and a nightmare in wet weather.
I wish the massive price discrepancy between the two break types was mentioned. It’s crazy just how much more bike you got on rim brake roadies compared to disc break roadies. For the same price you got a higher spec, much lighter and MUCH easier to service with rim break bikes. $6.5k AUD only gets you a Shimano 105 Trek 😂 and weight over 8kg
Synapse 2 RLE is 4.4k right now with Ultegra groupset. Canyon is even cheaper. Don’t look to Trek for the most affordable bikes, they’ve never been that. Not to mention now you’re getting way better braking performance for that small weight penalty
@@tomkunich9401 I mean, we're talking about a top level groupset here. From my understanding, Ultegra has never been affordable. If you want something cheap Shimano has plenty of offerings, which are really good by the way
I agree that the prices of bikes are getting out of hand recently but I also think you have to consider that a set of disc brake wheels is (usually) a one time purchase. Riding a lot in varying conditions, rim brake wheels are wearing out and need replacing, which makes the prospect of only replacing the disc brake rotors cheaper in the long haul. Back in the rim brake days, I'd never have considered buying a set of carbon wheels due to their poor braking performance and them wearing out (or even worse) when riding in the mountains. Now with a disc brake road bike, I get the benefit of aero carbon wheels and don't have to worry about wear and tear on the rim itself and for me personally I also got a lot more confident and faster on descends because I know I'll be able to stop when I need to.
As someone who hasn't tuned my feel on any braking system(I don't read brake feel much, and tend to be quite firm on braking pressure), and as someone who only has secondhand bikes, I have adapted my riding around rim brakes as that's what was available to me. I use alloy rims in all weathers, and carbon for best days or racing. I have also found the grip limit of tyres under braking, and the thought of having more braking power (as in locking wheels up even easier bringing a greater risk of crashing) is scary. I know that disc brakes give the opportunity for wider tyres which offer more grip to offset that but for a lightweight rider 32mm tyres is overkill for most of the roads I ride. One of my bikes is also a fixed gear, and I am not confident running a single brake. Even if they did make disc SS bikes I change my gearing a few times a year depending on purpose. I couldn't imagine the hassle of repositioning a disc brake caliper on the rear. Repositioning rim brake pads is easy (probably just because I am used to it).
The rim brakes on my Dura Ace 7100 group are great with aluminum wheels. I have no big issues at all, but the Campy disc brakes on my Super Record EPS with carbon wheels are superior in every way. Both work, but my disc setup is better with carbon and in the rain.
@@5891jonathan I have no qualms about discs being superior, I have used hydraulic discs off-road. But my point is my skills and judgement are far to inferior for discs when on road. Off-road, I use 2 piston calipers with as small a disc rotor as possible because if I went with anything else I would lose control under braking as I am far too aggressive on the levers, and don't like the comparative lack of resistance at the biting point on that system. I have my brakes set up where the free lever throw is so short they bite almost instantly.
I have just gone over to disc on my new road bike, and it may be an unpopular option but in the dry, I have not found them any better than my Wilier with rim brakes on carbon wheels. where discs come into their own it's in the wet, I don't think anyone would disagree with that. But with most things in the bike industry, the customer has no choice but to go with what the manufacturer decides for them, carbon frames,press-fit BB, disc brakes and I am sure next will be 1 by setups. And most of it will come down to manufacturing costs.
In my use I'd be very frustrated with discs. I almost always put my bikes in a car and drive to start riding. I spend winter months in the SW USA deserts, riding and camping where the nearest shops are hours away, so I do all my own maintenance. When tubulars got less popular I bought a few sets of carbon wheels. I finally wore one Reynolds to the kevlar after almost 10 years and average 2 times up and down Montezuma Grade, an 8% grade in 8 miles, plus all other climbs I can find. I ride tubulars because I descend at speed and having a blowout on a cliffside corner with a clincher or tubeless is potentially fatal if the tire comes off, which those often do. So putting a disc bike in a small hatchback, taking through axles out, and dealing with concealed hydraulics just is too many complications. I do rarely ride in rain and I have some alloy wheels for those possible rides. I'm sorry to see the industry price us out with proprietary everything bikes that have few brand or even model year parts that interchange. I'm sorry to see their marketing has sold a lot of "improvements" that are OK and significant only if you ride team bikes and have following mechanical staff. Appropriate for pros, maybe..but I recall a fairly recent top pro choosing and winning with old tech.. And, for my $18k I guess I'd rather have a new Ducati 😊
David, you said it, cyclist should have a choice, disc and rim should co-exist, rim brakes boil down to rim material choice. It's not that rims brakes were bad it's that carbon rim brakes were iffy. However, the only points I somewhat disagree with you is: It was not simply people buying disc of rim, it was more of people seeing what the pro ride and following suit. The sport sadly is driven by whatever the manufactures pay the pros to ride. Thanks for doing a balanced video. I have ridden rim brake since 1988. I have disc on my MTB and remember when the market switched to disc. I think MYB is best suited for disc due to the terrain and if they made caliper type brake for MTB as they had for road, that caliper would not be light and possible clumsy!
I wouldn't expect anyone to change back to rim brakes from disc. My road bike is Colombus Spirit with Ultegra R8000 group and rim brakes with Hunt carbon wheels. Weighs around 8kg. The brakes work fine. They're not as good as discs in the wet, fair enough, but they are perfectly ok. I ride down very steep hills in Wales in the wet. I do run tubular tyres and tubular carbon rims are way more durable and secure than clincher ones. I wouldn’t change my set up and am unlikely to change road bike any time soon. If I did, who knows? I've got a disc emtb with 4 piston callipers. Really appreciate those on that. And an acoustic mtb with hydraulic discs - ditto. Horses for courses I guess.
It all depends on the type of riding you do. And how much money you want to spend. And of course there is a choice between mechanical and hydraulic disc brakes
Both of my bikes are rim, I love the responsiveness of the lighter rim brake. If the weather is wet I tend not to ride and hop on a trainer 8:07 or I swap my carbon rim to a alloy rims.
Good assessment of rim vs. disc brakes. It is interesting how the tide has changed over the last 3-4 years though. Back then everyone was saying that the bike industry was forcing the bicycle customer towards buying disc brake equipped bikes as opposed to now people saying that consumers made the choice to like disc brakes better and the industry responded. I believe it's the former. One point of contention that was not discussed is the speed of wheel changes. No one can deny that quick release hubs allow for quicker wheel changes than thru-axel hubs. Also, has the problem with disc brake rub and the resulting annoying, ever-present sound been resolved?
I even wonder if that is an advantage for the most common use bikes have in the world -- you don't want to make life easier or your bike's wheels the more appealing target to a thief when sitting in some rack in the city, and for dealing with a flat, the rest of the job is prob the bigger time sink anyhow than just removing the wheel. The price difference would prob be impossible to justify in such a bike though.
Rim brakes get the job done for where I ride and the way I ride. Don't need or want the extra weight, noise, complexity and maintenance headaches of disc brakes.
I ride a 2016 carbon road bike with rim brakes, aluminum wheels, mechanichal shifting, external cable routing, threaded bottom bracket cups. It cost me less than 1500 euros, weighs less than 7 kg with pedals and cages, rides fine, stops fine, maintenance is low, easy and cheap. You are free to spend big bucks on a modern heavy disc brake road bike with integrated proprietary headset, internal cable routing, pressfit bottome bracket and all the other new gimmicks...
6:20 I completely agree, everyone should choose what works for them, I rode my TRC Pro 1 with rim brakes/Reynolds 62mm wheels and it was not a good experience. Although, I loved how the bike looked and rode. If i got caught in the rain, the only result of pressing brake leavers was a swooshing sound and cash register going off in my mind as I sanded the brake surface down. Hardly any stopping power. Being a 1.96m/80kg rider, the rear Reynolds wheel didn't make it to down to Sault from Mt. Ventoux without warping (and I do know how to break properly). So, for me... disc brakes, please! Thanks for another great vid, Dave!
Out of interest: What do you mean with "I know how to break properly)? The sole purpose of the (safety feature!) breaks is .... breaking. Always. I will not ever touch a rim break in my life again after a sales person told me the following. I was interrested i a Magura Hydrolic Disk break out of curiosity. He said that after a long descend you should pause breaking for a while for the breaks to cool or it may fail. Let me reiterate here: The break has to break. Always. Even if the disc is glowing. I really do not understand anyone prefering rim breaks and risking their life in a case of failure.
@@SirSmackalot5 I believe it might be worth David considering this topic for his channel. Every braking system can fail, especially when pushed to its limits, due to factors like rider weight, materials, speed, and application time. These factors influence heat buildup and can degrade brake performance. However, this can be mitigated with the right braking technique. To answer your question: I use an on-off braking method to minimize the duration brake pads touch the rim, reducing heat. This technique efficiently slows the bike and extends the wheel set's life. I apply lighter pressure to the rear brake and more forceful pressure to the front brake simultaneously. The front brake is more potent and cools faster due to better airflow. Still, my rear wheel (Reynolds Strike 62) failed on the descent to Sault. My comment was not related to riding in the wet on carbon/rim combination, but I found in those conditions better not to ride. There was hardly any decelartion in the first 4-5 seconds of initiating braking on Reynolds with blue pads.
Everything on bike can break, hating on rim brakes just because sales person once told you something is definetly kinda dumb. And bike industry is pushing far more dangerous stuff than rim brakes.
I always risk my life with dura ace on my sl4 s works tarmac with alloy fulcrum racing zero wheels, 181 cm..90 kg athletic build, never had any issue with stopping power or other similar things, riding in Alps( Austria, Italy, Slovenia), big mountain in Croatia and I will always trust rim brakes shimano dura ace with Swiss stop pads ..
I'm a really heavy-set rider (6.4 @ 116kg), and while I believe that I could profit from disc-breaks, all my bikes are based on rim-breaks - all being at least Ultegra or above, and all pads are Swissstop (against alu-rims). Can't really complain about breaking power in those set-ups, not even on descents, or in wet conditions. Would discs break better/harder/smoother? Maybe, but as of yet: in ~10000km per year there was not a single incident that had me in danger because of lack of breaking power of rim-breaks. Nevertheless: with the advent of a new frame I will go disc-break, and I'm confident that those won't disappoint me neither. TLDR: I don't really get the ongoing holy war between the disc- and rim-disciples.
I agree with David that we should have the option to chose either depending on the bike build. For example on my touring bike which I have ridden 1000's of miles I would never consider disc bikes for my aluminum rims. I simply adjust to the weather conditions and adjust my braking needs accordingly. Oh, and the wet weather argument... I don't see many high end bikes ever out in the rain in the US.
It’s one thing to purposely go out and train regardless of weather conditions and just dealing with whatever comes…and it’s another thing all together to be out on what was to be a 4 hour ride and having a pop up thunderstorm drop some heavy rain. Happens in South Florida pretty regularly.
I’d think on a touring bike discs would be always useful, no? Descending long distances with 50 pounds of weight on your bike surely is easier with hydraulic brakes.
All the comments saying carbon rims equals poor braking are true - I had some and scared myself !. That's why I went for the compromise of carbon rims with alloy brake tracks in the form of Shimano C50's . At just over 1600g for 50mm deep rims they aren't too heavy and the braking is great with Swiss Stop pads (Shimano pads pick up debris in the surface too easily) . I ride in the Peak District so the brakes get some real use on steep descents and the rims are lasting very well, the only thing I do is after a wet ride I remove the pads and clean out the grooves and emery the surface to get rid of any grit.
I have some 17,000 miles on my Reynolds Strike rim brake carbon wheels, average about 45 feet/mile of climbing/descent, don’t ride in the rain, never have felt braking was a problem, and cannot detect any wear on the brake track. Not demanding terrain or weather for brakes, but that’s probably the way it is for most of us. I accept discs are better, but I’m not replacing my rim brake bike to get them.
I find that new Shimano alloy rims wear out very quickly. If you've got wheels from more than a couple of years ago hang on to them. The new wheels are very soft and dont last long.
I got a set of carbon rims 3 years ago, using it in combination with my rim brakes and latex inner tubes. No problems whatsoever, although I ride mostly in the dry and flat roads (Netherlands). The braking performance is more than enough and the braking surface (strip) on the rims is still flawless.
Last year I got back into cycling (primarily for exercise) after several decades of my old 1974 Dawes gathering dust in the basement. I restored and updated that old steel randonneuring bike with some modern tech but I kept the rim brakes from necessity (the 1970's era steel fork wouldn't be safe with disc) and curmudgeonly preference. I also utterly resisted the disc brake notion thinking that they looked ugly and the idea sounded just dumb to me. When I researched to buy a brand new bike for an improved ride I continued avoiding anything with disc brakes. But as I zeroed in on the final configuration that was going to satisfy me I came to realize that disc was inevitable, dammit. I wanted 40-45mm tires and rim brakes just weren't an option there. So I now have over half a year of riding with a new bike fitted with hydraulic disc brakes (SRAM Rival) and 40mm tires versus many years (mostly in my youth) riding rim brakes and I can safely say that I have been completely won over by the disc brakes; no question. Even though maintaining rim brakes is a breeze compared to bleeding and adjusting hydraulic disc brakes, the discs are astoundingly better performing and clearly much safer for me. I have avoided a few close calls on shared pathways and that alone made it abundantly clear that disc is the right choice for me, a dyed-in-the-wool, "steel is real", kind of old fart.
@@neil4701 to be sure, I replaced the 1974 rim brakes during the upgrade process. What I have now is: alloy 650b Bucklos MTB wheelset; Dia-Compe MX1000 sidepull BMX calipers; Kool Stop Supra 2 pads, Salmon. So, while this isn't anything like DuraAce, it actually works pretty good, even when wet. I needed the 650b wheels to get 35mm gravel tires to fit in the frame, and the long reach BMX calipers to reach the rims. I installed a Sensah Empire groupset and the resulting bike rides extremely well. Even shed a few pounds off it. 🙂
@@BruceWalkerPhotography You'd still find a *massive* difference with a more modern rim brake road bike. Those long reach calipers will be very flexy and spongy compared with something like modern Ultegra road rim brakes, partially due to the long reach and partially to the quality. Just saying.. ;-)
I'm on an 2007 Look 585 frame, DA-7900 mechanical and rim brakes. Never tried disk brakes but never had any bad experience or under-performance issues with rim brakes. Recently purchased ZIPP 303 Firecrest carbon wheels but haven't noticed any braking issues or reduced performance. However, I never ride in wet weather so never experienced rim brakes with carbon wheels. I also don't ride on long descents that require sustained braking, so no over-heating issues either. So for me and the riding I do, rim brakes are fine.
Carbon rims with a grooved brake track surface works as good as aluminium in the wet. Its not gonna stop as quickly as a disc brake but the trade off is no rubbing.
Good video, We can all agree it would be great if the manufacturers offered some mid to high tend rim brake options to keep all parties happy. A couple of years ago Canyon were offering an Ultimate model with full Ultegra mechanical rim brakes and DT Swiss All wheels £2200 approx @7KG.
Unfortunately when the first 50/50 iterations came out (groupsets from 2015/16) disc brakes made up 80% of the mid to high end bike sales. Such a drastic reduction in rim brake sales led to the extreme sudden shift of obsolescence. Only a handful of frame manufacturers are selling rim brake bikes at high end, and those that do are offering them as a frame set only (Pinarello F, Colnago C68) and if you want current electronic groupsets, you cannot buy them complete with the exception of second tier Campagnolo Record which is a few years old now. The shifters are aftermarket only and are almost never in stock ( Shimano Dura Ace, Ultegra and SRAM Red are also your only choices, the new wireless Campag EPS is disc only) There is no longer a market big enough to justify the outlay of complete bike builds. Even Giant who up until recently offered rim brake options on most of its line-up have been phasing them out.
@@matt_acton-varian They are phased out until the consumer demands they come back. Which they are now that the spell and marketing BS of disc brakes is wearing off (or just the fact that people don't like paying £5,000 for a bike).
@@chrisjie2127 Some people don't like paying huge sums for bikes but some people still do. The data for brake type sales comes from several years pre-covid and hasn't changed since. I am quite happy on rim brakes but I accept I am in an extreme minority and amidst a cost crisis brands will take decisions to reduce their costs and rim brakes are seen as unviable from an economic stance because the market share is too small.
@@matt_acton-varian "rim brakes are seen as unviable from an economic stance" - translation - we can sell disc brakes that have far higher margins and rates of replacement.
@@chrisjie2127 Disc brake technology has been developed at a significantly faster rate than rim brake tech over the same period so more money has been spent on the technology. Rim brakes have been seeing an ever diminishing rate of improvements in regards to increased performance to a near plateau. The callipers sold for aftermarket rim brake Dura Ace are rebadged callipers from the previous groupset iteration because there are no longer any tech gains to be made without drastically increasing costs. Margins are not higher especially since most manufacturers have tried to absorb the extortionate cost increase of the raw materials and shipping costs without making losses. If it really were a big money grab bikes would have fluctuated in price like a seismograph in the middle of a tsunami. A Tarmac SL7 could have reached £25,000 for a week or two last year had market prices been set to a fixed profit margin.
I have a disc and a rim brake road bike , the discs are awsome not going to lie , but fitting ee brakes with Swiss stop black prince pads to my rim brake bike was the best thing i ever did , the braking is insane , almost on par with the discs in the dry , rim brake bikes do look better in my opinion also , love the classic road bike look 👌
As someone who has actually had 2 wheel-sets wear down to destruction from extensive use by calliper brakes I think it’s really important to remind people that calliper brakes do indeed destroy wheels eventually and sometimes that is an explosive event. I’m not saying it’s common but it is a reality and another factor if you’re the type that rides their bike a lot.
@@gregmorrison7320 so you grab the brake hard. lock up the wheel and the wheel exploded? or did you destroyed the wheel from crashing due to the lock up?
@@asiantrick24 No brake was used, the rims were worn (older rims had no wear indicators) and one was in a race, the rear rim kind of broke and peeled in two at the braking track, I wouldn't call it an explosion, but it locked the wheel, I didn't crash and got another wheel from a sag wagon to continue the race. The other time was about 50km into a fast 100km group ride, going faster than the time in the race, same thing, wheel broke and peeled at the brake track, wheel locked up, gave everyone a fright but no crash, it was a short distance to a small down and I actually found some strapping and a rag to wrap around the tube and tire to hold it on the rim and rode home on another tube at reduced pressure, it was uncomfortable as hell every revolution going bump bump bump but no cell phones back then and it got me home. In later years I've thrown rims away as they started to come out with wear indicators, had one set that lasted 2 1/2-3 years max doing about 14,000kms a year.
Generally speaking, even without rim wear indicators, letting them get that far is down to lack of inspection and maintenance. If my rims look distinctly concave I will replace them.
@@matt_acton-varian Yep, definitely pushed things too far and were on the to do list lol. Much easier now a days with wear indicators, plus I have disc brakes for those all weather rides.
THANK YOU!!! Also, yes, tech and 'improvements' are all great and fine, progress marching on and all, but HOW TF did so many top pro riders in Europe NOT die while descending tall cols, on twisty broken tarmac, around off camber decreasing radius turns at insane speeds, even IN the rain, for close to a century before the advent of this "MUST HAVE" tech???!!!
I love my rim-braked bikes, the only mistake I ever made was buying a set of full carbon clinchers... they look the part but braking is worse on the dry and absent in the wet. So I also do love my disc braked 'winter' bikes. For climbing I would always opt for rim brakes. Light disc equipped bikes are incredibly expensive and I've done fast descents from mountains in the wet with rimbrakes on aluminium clinchers and that went fine. However: if I had to buy a new bike right now I would opt for a disc braked bike. The reason is mention by you David: availability. Getting good quality wheels and parts for rim braked bikes is getting harder and harder.
I ride in a dry So Cal climate conditions and mainly on flats so I see no need to replace my rim brake bikes. Actually, due to the movement towards disc brakes is rim brake lovers are scooping up incredibly deals on top quality pre-owned bikes.
I had built up my new road bike using a new chinese frame, 105 groupset, pedals and my used wheels, tires, handle bars and some other used bits. This cost me $1500. Canadian. I had thought about building a disk brake bike with simular spec. After pricing out new rims, tires, groupset and the frame. The cost balooned up to $5000.00. Needless to say I couldn't justify building or buying a bike for that much. The new 105 brakes are very good, maybe not the best, but good enough.
I will NEVER buy a disc brake bike. It has nothing to do with consumer choice-- the manufacutrers decided that they coudl triple the prices by forcing everyone onto to disk.
For stopping a bike quickly repeatedly and predictably in all weather conditions, they are simply a better braking system. But for many use cases (dry weather, low speed, flat terrain, lightweight rider etc) rim brakes are perfect for the job.
@@Mububban23 Yes. Road discs are heavy, expensive (contemporary bikes cost x3 what they should), not aero, they squeek and rub and can be difficult to maintain. Worse of all, they can lock up and cause potentially fatal crashes. I don't need them for my cycling practice. I descended the Mont Ventoux with no problems on rim brakes. And I don't believe this myth of bake track wear-down if you clean your rims and use carbon-specific brake pads.
My two pairs of carbon rim brake wheels both have aluminium brake tracks so i get the good braking and the lightness/looks of the carbon rims. I guess these days it will be hard to find those anymore
Good vid! I happily ride rim brakes on my Cervelo R3 with Roval rapid carbon wheels. I am a weekend warrior and I live in Houston Texas pretty flat. No worries on doing mountains just Hills in the Hill country. My Ultegra rim brakes work perfectly and I enjoy my whole bike setup!
I have road bikes with both rim brakes and disk brakes. I love the rim brakes more than disk brakes for my regular rides. But if the weather is rainy or I'm going out for a longer ride where I'm not sure about the road conditions, I definitely take my disk brakes bike.
The great schism came when carbon rims with rim brakes occurred .. there we're all kinds of brakes pads introduced to improve braking in the wet, but to be honest, they were very ordinary compared to alloy rims. There were attempts to bond a alloy rim onto a carbon rim with mixed results, and t I considered them a bodge. in saying that, early discs, like Magura, had virtually no modulation (it seemed) and racing mountain bikes with them one had to be very ginger using them, whereas V brakes were vastly superior, to me... I don't race road or mountain anymore, and personally don't feel the need for discs with the type of riding I do now, my Campag Chorus do everything I require, But if I upgrade my bike, which I am thinking of, finding new frames with mechanical shifting and rim brakes are very few and far between, but I don't feel I should be forced in to that disc/electronic scenario ...
Having ridden both Dogma Fs I feel like a few points aren't being touched upon enough: you quote consistency with which I suspect you mean braking consistency *between weather conditions. But this IMO is a luxury problem: the performance of rim brakes in the high end wheels is pretty much .1 to .2 seconds from dry to wet, and precisely this is fully consistent. I think pushing the limits during wet weather is already a questionable choice unless you're racing, but even then tyre traction is greatly more important than braking performance so again the point seems moot. To me the biggest limiting factor are the tyres and the limitation of traction. This part is independent of the mode of braking. To me then, the pros of rim brakes: - Ride feel due to carbon layup - Adjustability, as you also quoted - Wheel changes - Weight - Ceiling of aero performance is higher, for example with the TriRig brakes + custom 3d printer mounting components Disadvantages: - Mode of braking for full carbon wheels requires high end rims, but then wearing away high end rims is not a great feeling - Riding fast on the descents means running latex inner tubes is not recommended, since rim will inevitably heat up during braking The advantages of disc: - Same performance between wet and dry - Choice of wheels (industry induced) - Running latex inner tubes or tubolito is worry-free Note that brake squeal is omitted from the disc disadvantages because there exist treatments and spoke choices that will eliminate the need for discs to be sterile in use.
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Just by happenstance I found myself in the recent situation whereby I had to dust down my 2015 Colnago C60 with Campag EPS V1, Enve wheels and rim brakes. I have to admit I found it stunning to ride and in comparison, to my later model disc brake, electronic gear etc. bikes , it was every bit as good and as fast. I've found from my recent experience the difference between a top frame rim brake and disc brake bike is not that profound. I suspect though because my Colnago C60 is rim brake it is likely to be a half to a third the price of a disc brake bike. In the wash up to my recent experience I don't think disc brakes are must or a game change. Rather, rim braking bikes still have a lot to offer and in many respects just as good.
The things I don't like about discs are hydraulics being harder to set up (for me at least), and they seem harder to keep quiet. My next bike will no doubt have them though.
Try some carbon Campy or Fulcrum Racing wheels with Campy pads. You won't be saying that rim brakes are inferior to disks. Of course wet weather disks are better. But Campy/Fulcrum wheels and pads are amazing. I'm sure there are others out there also.
My classic alloy bike has campy carbon tubs with the chorus 12spd calipers and pads and it does work very well in the dry. In saying that if I'm riding in the hills I'll take my disc bike especially if a risk of moisture. Often forgotten us that you don't need rain to get the rim wet it can be temperature change or just riding through must or fog.
Rim brakes were ok for me but since switching to discs I've been able to get rid of the winter bike and winter wheelsets. Just one bike now, with one wheelset that gets used all year round, wet or dry with everything from commuting to racing. Contrary to what some people think, it's a much simpler life with discs.
I've always loved rim brakes, Cannondale too. But as a 95 kg rider who lives in a hilly town, I always felt uncomfortable. I just had to switch to discs. Disc brakes have been amazing, no rubbing or whatnot.
I can understand how people living in flat areas didn't feel the need for discs but where I live, the discs have been great. I often descend twisty double digit descents and having the disc brakes have been hugely helpful. I also had an old rim brake tarmac SL4 that despite having the bike shop bring the levers in closer for my shorter hands, I still had issues reaching them with a solid grip. Pair that with bumpy roads and it would just add to the lack of enjoyment when descending. I have a rim brake TT bike which works well enough since its on the flats but I'll never go back to rim for my road bikes.
Same. My son has a bike with rim brakes, and the first time I went down a double-digit gradient on that thing I was quite sure that disc brakes are the only answer for me. Far more yet when the roads are wet.
Commuting in college last winter made me realize how terrible rim brakes were. Sure, they worked, but every time it rained I was stuck with poor brake performance. I’d have loved the security of hydraulic discs then. That’s not even going into the better modulation they offer, either.
Agreed. I did the Fred Whitton a few years back on a rim brake Tarmac, where you are either on the brakes as soon as you go over the top of Honister, Hardknott ( yes, I walked), Wrynose etc, or you are the person lying by the stone bridge with a paramedic tending to you, and my hands were killing me by the end of those descents, and I have fairly large hands. But in normal, dry conditions, I think Ultegra rim brake calipers with swiss block pads are great and with less tendency to squeal or ting, ting.
Isn’t it horses for courses? My single speed commuter is perfect with rim brakes. My light weigh SuperSix Evo has rim brake/carbon wheel combo but would never ride it in the wet. My Synapse has discs and perfect for those weekend battles and sportives in all weather. If I had only one bike..has to be discs though.
I have a bike with 105 rim brakes but im not a coper - disc brakes are superior to rim brakes. Levers are easier to press and less tiring, there is no worry about cable routing bends, there is less to worry about contaminants picked up from road smearing on the rim and decreasing brake performance in rainy weather, the mainteneance is actually a dead simple since most of the bikes won't even need a change of braking fluid if you ride on flat terrain, so that leaves you with braking pads[super simple], replacing braking rotor[again, very simple] and maybe replacing fluid every 5 years or so. I find that you can modulate both types of brakes similarily, disc brakes are just way more responsive and needs some learning to not ham fist them. With modern designs, disc brakes can be as aero as rim brakes, the only small downside is still the weight, but it is very close if you use highest tier with carbon-titanium rotors.
back in the 80's and early 90's breaking and tire performance/weather determined if i was going to ride. Now I ride year round and in all weather situations, disc brakes just work well.
Nice perspective Arthur:). For me, its not about the brake system itself, I have have both systems available, and both systems generates sufficient brake power for my purpose. As I see it, the thing with disc is the 'inversed' transfer of energy trough especially the front wheel. over time time I assume the spokes will wear or fail more often than a rim wheel. I you are a pro - no issue - but as a amateur I think your wheelset wont last as long as you are used to. The stress on the wheels, fork etc..is in a different league compared to the rim brake construction.
I live four city blocks from the start of an 18-mile, 4,100-foot alpine climb. I love shooting down the descent at over 40 MPH, which is insanity with rim brakes. I prefer the reliability and feel that hydraulic disc brakes provide.
I'm in a similar situation atm, commuting on my older rim brake bike after spending the past two years on discs. Makes a world of difference, dry or wet conditions, to the point that I HAVE to improve the rim brake system to keep using it. Right now they're too unresponsive to have any modulation and can hardly lock my rear wheel. I don't feel safe with traffic around me, especially in the wet and/or on slight declines. So now I'm asking myself, how are rim brakes "simpler", as most people argue. They're dependent on so many things: fresh cables/housings, proper cable routing, buying some very special high-end pads (not cheaper!), toeing them in, cleaning them and the brake track regularly, cleaning and lubing the brake calipers (not easier!)... Disc brakes are fit and forget. Maybe bleed once or twice per year. Swapping pads is cheap and easy. No further adjustments. With rim brakes, I have to readjust every time I pop the wheel on or off, because the tyre won't fit between the pads (with the caliper open), also performance suffers if my rim goes out of true, so I have to keep that in check as well. And why? To save a few grams and be a good old traditionalist? Not to mention that a hydraulic brake won't ever fail completely the way a snapped cable would. I've had a shifter cable snap once, wouldn't want that on my brake line. Luckily, can't happen with hydro.
Rim brakes with aluminum tacked carbon rims, like the Campagnolo Bullet worked well. However they can’t match the weight of a carbon only rim. Caliper brakes, as on touring and cross bikes, allowed for more tire clearance than with rim brakes on road racing bikes. Now that larger tires with wider rims are being used to reduce rolling resistance, most rim brakes just don’t have the clearance. Also, with the advent of the adventure/ do-it-all bike, one has the option of using different wheels 700 or 650 to increase tire width for more off road alternatives. I ride only rim, caliper on my ‘90’s MTB, but if I was to go to bike packing/touring or gravel, and especially with a new XC MTB, disc is the only way to go! Has so many advantages and options in these applications.
With respect to you using the carbon wheels with that model of calliper. Those are designed for modulation with a narrow rim leading to the sensation you experience. It’s harder to fine a wider set of carbon rim brake wheels that those. Swap out the callipers it’s night and day.
I loved my Rim brake bike and descended the local alpine hills pretty quickly, however I also burned through two sets of wheels on sustained descent. Now I know if I descent and overheat something it's a consumable to replace not a wheelset
I do have a carbon wheel disc brake bike. But the few times I got caught in a pouring rain it was pretty awful. If it's dry, they're perfectly adequate (and light and easy to work on). But their performance is just not as good as my bike with disc brakes. Shimano Ultegra in both cases. I did find Reynolds Cryo Blue Power pads helped a lot on rim brakes. But $$.
Hi, I live in Bala and I have descended Bwlch y Groes on aluminium and carbon rim brakes. I think there are no issues with the latest carbon rim wheels from Hunt and Scribe and I think people need to remember that the first time a disk bike won the TDF was 2022.
A good point is that rim brake in driy areas are perfectly suited to cover everything. So if you live in california like I do abosolutely no reason to change to disc. But finding a rim brake frame is very difficult now if you want to continue using them. Unfortunate
I do wonder whether people who make these comments have acutally had a proper go on a disc brake bike. I used to be a fellow 'rim brakes are better' Marta until I demoed a hydro disc road bike. They are just better in terms of outright power, wet weather performance (big plus for me) and potential 1 finger operation (like on mtb's). Rim brake bikes are toally fine, and will always have the potential to be lighter, but imo discs do offer a genuine performance benefit.
@@darrinforteir3621Right, disc brakes need zero maintenance. By the time you take them to the shop you'll probably get a new bike. Rim brakes need tinkering with and adjusting, but I LOVE to do that
How much does it cost to service and change rotors? Can we all do it ourselves? Why would you ride in the rain? I race every weekend and I'll leave disc brakes to my mtb and gravel bike thanks.
One of the issues with rim brakes is that innovation for them is either extremely sluggish or non-existent, yet there is still room for improvement with today's technology and thinking. I wonder how far you can actually take this braking system these days if there was some more R&D put into making them really good. Like what about double pads on each side for extra stopping surface, maybe line the rims with grooves for better friction points for the pad to bite on to.
Thanks, David, for sharing your experiences and with your Cannondale test mule, how about an aluminum front rim and something carbon in back, if you have to ride some carbon. That might be a good combo for a retro bike and that Cannondale sure does look good, especially at the price these days.
Use CX bikes with disc on my new bike. Will not go back to rim brake for general use due to barely stopping on the downhills where I live on alloy rims with cantilever brakes. Plus other reasons of tire clearance when gunked up, wheel damage, etc that happens to wheels used for CX and off-tarmac. Cantilever is still on the the race singlespeed for the retro bike. Rim caliper brakes good on alloy rims road, not on carbon in all conditions with the caliper brakes.
My rim brake on my Campagnolo Boro WTO is very good, however in the wet the braking performance isn’t great. I’ll be purchasing my first disc brake bike soon. Finger’s crossed.
A well set up pair of rim brakes (especially direct mount type) can be really good but there is no doubt they are unreliable in the wet, are inconsistent, destroy wheels making them often financially unviable for rebuild, and also hamstring frame designers. Disc brakes just work; you fit them and then basically chuck new pads in from time to time, replace the odd rotor and thats about it. Needing to bleed them constantly isn't really a thing for the most part.
I've been riding disc brake bikes (road and gravel) for about five years. I still ride a road bike with rim brakes on occasion, however. When riding that bike (equipped with Ultegra brakes and Hed wheels with aluminum rims) I am reminded at how inferior its braking performance is in comparison with my disc brake bikes (and that's in dry conditions, let alone in the wet). Yes, disc brakes are heavier and more difficult to set up. But the safety improvements they provide mean that I will never look back longingly at the days of riding with rim brakes.
@@dickieblench5001 I never wished for better brakes, either. But when I when I acquired my first disc brake bike, the inferiority of rim brakes was readily apparent.
Everybody talking safety. But If you race, if you wanna real feel of flying uphill when pushing max effort into pedals then you must choose rim brakes. Discs brake better, but sluggish tractor I feel underneath me while climbing 10% climbs is thw worst feeling ever
I like rim brakes, my question is why people want to spend so much money in carbon rims when the weight is very similar to aluminum rims, disc hydraulic brakes are very heavy and they always need adjustment, contaminate etc etc
In dry on my lappiere on Carbon wheels rim are perfect:). When it's wet I ride my gravel with disc. Where do you ride in the Cotswolds, I have some lovely routes around white horse Ridgeway if you fancy coming along :)
My MTB has disk brakes, started with rim brakes in 1988. Dirt and wet conditions are a bad combination, the aluminum rims wear out quickly. When it comes to my racing bike, I still ride the same racing bike since 1992 (Restomod F. Moser) and I don't see any point in swapping. I'm missing the aesthetic component of the whole discussion. For me, a beautiful classic steel frame with rim brakes is a reason to enjoy getting on a racing bike and riding...
Thanks for your honest opinion. I know you are not a fan of down slope top tube, I don't like it either, here is one idea for a future video: compare the advantages of the down slope with the horizontal top tubes, I think there are practical reasons why most new bikes are with a down slope.
So the downfall/error is in fact carbon rims not rim brakes. But this has always been the case hasn't it? The tail wagging the dog hahah.Ive ridden over 3 decades & live in the mountains & have always preferred alum rims. Did try Campy Hyperons when they first came out & decided the juice was not worth the squeeze. I have never worn out any alum rims including the old lightweight Mavic GEL 280's when running tubulars. These days Campy Zonda's are fine for me. But rim brakes of course
When disc brakes were first introduced on road bikes I only saw them on entry level bikes, at the time I was working at a local bike shop. It made me think that they were only on entry level bikes because beginner riders were not familiar with rim brakes or how to properly use them, especially on wet conditions or on a long descent. I knew for a fact that disc brakes gave the new road rider that little extra confidence to get on the road. I also ride both disc and rim bekes and honestly I don’t prefer one over the other, I’m experienced enough to get the most out of my rim brakes on any condition and also love the look of my disc brake bike.
For carbon fiber rim brake wheel , you need to buy wheel that add special brake surface that can withstand the heat up to 320 celcius. It will brake almost as good as aluminium rim brake
The rippled brake track on the zipp nsw‘s works like a treat. I’ll not ride them in the wet anyway to keep them longer alive. Keen to see how disc brakes will further evolve.
Also a shame when swissside stopped making their alu brake track 62mm (and 42mm) deep wheels, great aerodynamics and braking, touch heavier but altogether a great package
If there is rim brakes in the market, people will buy it. They put it out not cos there is no demand, but cos they want to force people to use disc brakes. That’s all.
But braking with rim brakes and aluminium wheels in wet is just as good as dry. Voting with oir walet wasn't the case here the move came from the manufactures. How are the disc brakes performing in wet once you find out they've been contaminated, which on the the road happens more ofthen then when ridig on trails?
I have high-spec'd bikes in rim and disc brakes. I use Swiss Stop pads for the rim brake bikes. Honestly, I cannot notice any improvement in braking performance in most weather conditions with disc brakes - the only ones that are hair raising are rim brakes with my carbon wheels (WTOs)- bloody worrying in general.
Disk brake courses a lot of problems. Most of my pats are force into disc brake bike and after awhile they all complained about the same one issue and it’s annoying as hell. You will know when you know.
I recommend looking at the juintech F1 or G series hybride mechanical disk brakes. Far more affordable, lighter, and with braking that is almost at the hydro level you can buy sram red mech levers for less than 300 pounds at 280g :D.
I have been riding a steel bike for 16 years with the same brake cable. I never have a problem going downhill or skidding in two inches of water. Am i careful. going downhill? yes. Sometimes I 6:54 regulate my speed going downhill by standing up. Do i inspect the cable? Yes (ok. it is time to change it. It takes 5 minutes. It is all easy.) I also never had a problem in the rain. I can lay skids in two inches of water. Do i test them before I need? absolutely. I never had an issue. You just have to be more cognizant. 6:266:33
I had actually no idea that disk brakes were so predominate with road bikes. I kind of have my own little riding world where I almost never have chats with other road bike riders, and rarely see them also. They aren't as popular where I live as other types of bikes. Good point about the more affordable or value bikes. Caliper rim breaks came standard on the State Bicycle model I bought this year, and since I had those on the old 10-speed I had when I was a teenager in the 1970s, it was a continuation and a reacquainting for me. The bike has been super and the brakes (with more planning ahead) have been super for me also. I can't see getting a set for a road bike unless they came standard on another bike. I have them on my Marine hybrid with it's 35C front and 38C rear tires so I'm understanding of the nature and the differences.
Rim brakes aluminim rims and tyres with inner tube's will do for me.
Agree, only with TPU inner like ridenow thou.
As a PhD engineer and vehicle dynamics consultant, it is obvious from fundamental statics considerations that any brake that can lock the wheel is powerful enough. Once the wheel is locked, the tire/road coefficient of friction is what limits deceleration rate and acts as the limiting mechanical fuse. If your rim or disc brakes were 100,000 times more powerful than they actually are, but the ones you have can lock the wheel, that extra 100,000 times in braking power is completely irrelevant. The carbon rim business is a consideration, but there are aluminum rims that are almost as light as carbon rims (some are even LIGHTER than most carbon rims), so moment of inertia isn't a factor. As for the aerodynamic advantages of some carbon rims, you can find that in a wind tunnel but unless you are a Tour de France rider, you probably won't notice much difference, except of course in a crosswind, where they're a big pain! But other things ARE factors in choosing a rim vs. disc brake: cost, adjustability of the brakes, serviceability, etc. Brake "feel" is subjective and an individual thing, so there are no engineering issues on that point at all. Yes discs are better in wet weather and in dissipating heat during long descents, and of course there is the wow factor and show-off level at club rides. As I live in flatland Illinois, I'll stick with my Dura Ace rim brakes.
Good lord do you always write this way? Write to EXPRESS, not IMPRESS.
@@robertandrews3055It’s really not that hard at all
Completely agree... I have 1.5kg roval slx 24 alloy wheels and Shimano 105 rim brakes. I changed to look stop dura 2 salmón pads they are great.
Being able to lock the wheel on rims doesn't mean they're equally as powerful. Modulation and control matters, which discs have vastly more of. There's a huge difference between a light squeeze to stop quickly versus clamping down with both hands with a deathgrip.
What you have there is lucid common sense.
“If you brake, you lose.” - Mario Cippolini
I started racing at club level in the mid-Atlantic, US 40 years ago. I have done hundreds of races in all weather conditions and have never experienced any of the braking issues that people talk about. I currently have a ~dozen rim brake bikes, 5 with carbon braking surface, and have never encountered any of the problems that are so often described. I have never worn out the brake track on a set of rims. I can modulate speed in the wet or dry, with the primary limiter being tire contact patch friction.
I recognize that others may have a different experience and may honestly prefer disc brake road bikes…but it is ironic to me that DA concludes that the improved braking performance of his disc brakes is worth the weight penalty, but then he comes back with a video a month later on weight weenie hacks to reduce the weight of his disc brake bike!
I've only ridden rim brake bikes, never disc brakes, and have never raced, nor intend to convert my current one and only bike to disc or buy a disc brake one any time soon, so I'm just speculating here. But perhaps disc brakes do actually make sense in certain situations that didn't apply to you. Like, less experienced riders who ride in the rain, or down steep and winding mountain roads, and the like. But there's got to be a reason that pro riders have mostly if not entirely switched to disc brakes despite the weight penalties and other issues with them.
Perhaps it's a little like the argument for switching from manual to auto transmissions in cars. For most people and in many situations it makes sense, especially given that the latter are now mostly more fuel-efficient than manuals. But for driving enthusiasts who know how to handle a manual transmission car, it sometimes makes sense to stick with manual. You're in the latter category, in terms of your bike handling skills, but most people are not, and thus auto transmissions, and disc brakes, might make more sense for them.
@@HabaneroTi nearly all cars i drove in my entire life where manuals. Off all cars i drove from friends, work or family only two where automatic. (Germany if someone cares)
@xenotrii care❤xx
Mario likely put it this way..."Se freni, perdi". A wise adage for Life, actually, yes? buona fortuna!!
Try that in a city
I think the biggest disadvantage is when you have carbon wheels. The heat rim breaks generate on aluminum in a descend doesn’t damage the wheel. Carbon wheels are different; they are susceptible to heat and can delaminate with excessive heat. In those cases the disc break is a much better option. But for aluminum wheels I see no need for discs
In theory that's true, but unfortunately the reliability and temperature resistance of the disc rotors is such that they can easily warp on long mountain descents
A disc is still far less expensive than a rim. To avoid overheating people can break in periods and wait between each period to let it cool down.
Yes, then the breaks will brake
True. I would never buy a bike with carbon wheels and rim brakes.
@@michaelclements4664 True! Not the best idea if one has to spend quite a home budget on this. Though I have nothing against rm based carbon wheels (just use dedicated brake pads), let's not forget they were invented to do races, but rather not race "to the supermarket". As such, they should last quite long. A decade? Possibly more... People just get reach with time and can afford more. Carbon technology also got broader use in road bikes for 'common people'. Still, they/we sometimes buy things we can't sustain later on and get pissed about things, they simply wear, don't last forever.
Also not every biker has a knowledge or passion to quit other stuff just to build wheels from scratch. I do, but yes, I stick to the aluminium rims as well.
The downfall of the rim brake came after the advent of light weight carbon rims, where rim brakes performed poorer in wet conditions, and because rim brakes wear out expensive rims. replacing expensive carbon rims after a couple of years was expensive for most people. That being said I still use rim brake and aluminum rims. I find they work fine for where I live and how I ride. I may change my mind after I move to the Dolomites.
I'm on a entry level bike, giant contend 3, apart from my dislike for the FD from claris, my only issue are the breaks. Might be because they are lower quality or simply because they aren't suited for my weight at around 90kg. If i get a bit of water on the ground i always leave my house praying that nothing wrong happens. but it's better being prepared than sorry, so i'm looking to but a new disc brake bike and retire this one to a home training setup.
Slowly getting there on the budget, maybe by this time next year will buy the old orbea orca road bike or a scott addict gravel 30, as it is more capable as a one bike garage, and taking this giant out on the hotter days
Yup
Yes, same for me. That has not been a good argument for me to change my bike. I ride mostly flat roads and I never go out if I know it’s going to rain. I am not training for anything; so I don’t care about getting wet on the bike.
I ride where it's hilly with rim brakes.😊
Well said Brian
I visited Berlin last week and was impressed by every bike under the sun being used, from old racing bike classics of the 60s and 70s to new exotic titanium lifestyle models. ultimately, as long as bikes can brake safely, anything goes.
Disk brakes are a way for the bike industry to sell more bikes by attempting to convince us that bikes are now worth £12k because of modern technology. I ride a 2015 carbon Synapse with rim brakes which cost my about £1300 at the time. Bike industry are making fools out if people with no common sense
Yeah you’re definitely smarter and everyone else is being fooled but not you.
@@truvc pls explain to me why bikes from before 2019 where it was still common to see TdF using rim brake bikes still stopped fine? I have a rim brake bike. It stops fine. Never crashed because I couldn't stop.
If you argued disc is better because it doesn't wear out the rim surface and slowly destroy the wheel I would absolutely agree with you totally. But braking? It only suddenly became an, 'oooh eeerrr bit sketchy riding tim brakes! Do they even stop?' when the marketing for disc brakes became the new 'essential thing'.
Sure, if your bike has discs that's great, peace of mind, long lasting wheels. But if it has rim bakes that's fine, too. Simple to adjust, pads are cheap, light af, looks very tidy. Lots of pros too.
Simply a symbiotic relationship between consumers (us) who always want MORE and BETTER, and businesses (them) who are happy to have no choice but to give us what folks are asking for. We're perhaps not to blame for wanting more and businesses probably aren't to blame for trying to stay in business. Do and buy what you enjoy!
What about choice? I buy what i want not what the cy cle industry may or may not want
As a heavy man who rides in London every day I can say that disc brakes have kept me alive compared to rim brakes that almost got me killed so many times. There are obviously people that prefer rim brakes and that’s awesome but genuinely to me I would rather run to work than go back to rim brakes.
In 2019 I bought my first road bike (a caad12 actually!) so every other bike after that had also been disc equipped so I didnt know any different (also made the switch to electronic shifting pretty early on)
Until this year when I picked up my first 'full mechanical' road bike, and i absolutely love it. To me, there is nothing more satisfying than the feeling a well set up fully mechanical bike. Braking on the carbon rims with black prince pads is plenty enough for a recreational rider, cloncking through the gears, I love it.
No discs catching, or sceaching - no centring pads and truing rotors. Plus, for me personally the brake feel is way superior to that of a disc set up.
Its hard to explain, without sounding like Jermy Clarkson or something - but I think that there is more of a 'at one with the bike' kind of thing going on with a full mechanical set up when compared to the latest and greatest in technology.
All that said, my rim brake bike will only ever be used on the dry days, and to me thats where disc brakes have the major advantage. No matter that the weather, they will still perform. No worrying about inferior braking in the wet, or picking up road debris that is going to wear away your rims. Living in the UK my disc bike will no doubt get used more than its counter part - but there is definitely something about my rim braked bike, wether is a novelty factor or not I do not entirely know, but it definitely puts more of a smile on my face.
Try Swiss Stop carbon pads. They work just as good as regular pads on aluminum wheels.
That's what I use the yellow ones
Yup!
Depends on your wheelset. I have 3 sets of Reynolds tubs, the only recommended pads are their ($$) cryo blue power pads. I'm reluctant to try any other pads with them.
oh that's good, thanks you - it'll stop me mixing my carbon pads with my aluminium pads with are both black which could be a disaster.
I think it depends on the brand of carbon wheels. I had some Reynolds carbon wheels that were so-so with Swiss Stop carbon pads in dry weather, and a nightmare in wet weather.
I wish the massive price discrepancy between the two break types was mentioned.
It’s crazy just how much more bike you got on rim brake roadies compared to disc break roadies. For the same price you got a higher spec, much lighter and MUCH easier to service with rim break bikes.
$6.5k AUD only gets you a Shimano 105 Trek 😂 and weight over 8kg
Synapse 2 RLE is 4.4k right now with Ultegra groupset. Canyon is even cheaper. Don’t look to Trek for the most affordable bikes, they’ve never been that. Not to mention now you’re getting way better braking performance for that small weight penalty
Not to mention the servicing costs of disc brakes. Servicing rim brakes is an easy and cheap DIY.
@@Ferrichrome- "even cheaper"??? It must be nice to be able to talk like that. I have a lot of money but who knows what the future holds?
@@tomkunich9401 I mean, we're talking about a top level groupset here. From my understanding, Ultegra has never been affordable. If you want something cheap Shimano has plenty of offerings, which are really good by the way
I agree that the prices of bikes are getting out of hand recently but I also think you have to consider that a set of disc brake wheels is (usually) a one time purchase. Riding a lot in varying conditions, rim brake wheels are wearing out and need replacing, which makes the prospect of only replacing the disc brake rotors cheaper in the long haul. Back in the rim brake days, I'd never have considered buying a set of carbon wheels due to their poor braking performance and them wearing out (or even worse) when riding in the mountains. Now with a disc brake road bike, I get the benefit of aero carbon wheels and don't have to worry about wear and tear on the rim itself and for me personally I also got a lot more confident and faster on descends because I know I'll be able to stop when I need to.
As someone who hasn't tuned my feel on any braking system(I don't read brake feel much, and tend to be quite firm on braking pressure), and as someone who only has secondhand bikes, I have adapted my riding around rim brakes as that's what was available to me. I use alloy rims in all weathers, and carbon for best days or racing. I have also found the grip limit of tyres under braking, and the thought of having more braking power (as in locking wheels up even easier bringing a greater risk of crashing) is scary. I know that disc brakes give the opportunity for wider tyres which offer more grip to offset that but for a lightweight rider 32mm tyres is overkill for most of the roads I ride. One of my bikes is also a fixed gear, and I am not confident running a single brake. Even if they did make disc SS bikes I change my gearing a few times a year depending on purpose. I couldn't imagine the hassle of repositioning a disc brake caliper on the rear. Repositioning rim brake pads is easy (probably just because I am used to it).
The rim brakes on my Dura Ace 7100 group are great with aluminum wheels. I have no big issues at all, but the Campy disc brakes on my Super Record EPS with carbon wheels are superior in every way. Both work, but my disc setup is better with carbon and in the rain.
@@5891jonathan I have no qualms about discs being superior, I have used hydraulic discs off-road. But my point is my skills and judgement are far to inferior for discs when on road. Off-road, I use 2 piston calipers with as small a disc rotor as possible because if I went with anything else I would lose control under braking as I am far too aggressive on the levers, and don't like the comparative lack of resistance at the biting point on that system. I have my brakes set up where the free lever throw is so short they bite almost instantly.
@@leslie7922 Considering I can lock up rim brakes in the dry (on premium tyres) I dread to think how skittish I would be on a disc brake bike.
I have just gone over to disc on my new road bike, and it may be an unpopular option but in the dry, I have not found them any better than my Wilier with rim brakes on carbon wheels. where discs come into their own it's in the wet, I don't think anyone would disagree with that. But with most things in the bike industry, the customer has no choice but to go with what the manufacturer decides for them, carbon frames,press-fit BB, disc brakes and I am sure next will be 1 by setups. And most of it will come down to manufacturing costs.
you can always go with custom steel bike!
@@darekm.7769 I would rather go custom than pay £4K+ for an off-the-shelf big brand Frame.
Hi! that is pretty interesting to me, could you tell me exactly what bike is it? are the brakes hydraulic?
In my use I'd be very frustrated with discs. I almost always put my bikes in a car and drive to start riding. I spend winter months in the SW USA deserts, riding and camping where the nearest shops are hours away, so I do all my own maintenance. When tubulars got less popular I bought a few sets of carbon wheels. I finally wore one Reynolds to the kevlar after almost 10 years and average 2 times up and down Montezuma Grade, an 8% grade in 8 miles, plus all other climbs I can find. I ride tubulars because I descend at speed and having a blowout on a cliffside corner with a clincher or tubeless is potentially fatal if the tire comes off, which those often do.
So putting a disc bike in a small hatchback, taking through axles out, and dealing with concealed hydraulics just is too many complications.
I do rarely ride in rain and I have some alloy wheels for those possible rides.
I'm sorry to see the industry price us out with proprietary everything bikes that have few brand or even model year parts that interchange. I'm sorry to see their marketing has sold a lot of "improvements" that are OK and significant only if you ride team bikes and have following mechanical staff. Appropriate for pros, maybe..but I recall a fairly recent top pro choosing and winning with old tech..
And, for my $18k I guess I'd rather have a new Ducati 😊
David, you said it, cyclist should have a choice, disc and rim should co-exist, rim brakes boil down to rim material choice. It's not that rims brakes were bad it's that carbon rim brakes were iffy. However, the only points I somewhat disagree with you is: It was not simply people buying disc of rim, it was more of people seeing what the pro ride and following suit. The sport sadly is driven by whatever the manufactures pay the pros to ride. Thanks for doing a balanced video. I have ridden rim brake since 1988. I have disc on my MTB and remember when the market switched to disc. I think MYB is best suited for disc due to the terrain and if they made caliper type brake for MTB as they had for road, that caliper would not be light and possible clumsy!
I wouldn't expect anyone to change back to rim brakes from disc. My road bike is Colombus Spirit with Ultegra R8000 group and rim brakes with Hunt carbon wheels. Weighs around 8kg. The brakes work fine. They're not as good as discs in the wet, fair enough, but they are perfectly ok. I ride down very steep hills in Wales in the wet. I do run tubular tyres and tubular carbon rims are way more durable and secure than clincher ones. I wouldn’t change my set up and am unlikely to change road bike any time soon. If I did, who knows? I've got a disc emtb with 4 piston callipers. Really appreciate those on that. And an acoustic mtb with hydraulic discs - ditto. Horses for courses I guess.
It all depends on the type of riding you do. And how much money you want to spend. And of course there is a choice between mechanical and hydraulic disc brakes
Both of my bikes are rim, I love the responsiveness of the lighter rim brake. If the weather is wet I tend not to ride and hop on a trainer 8:07 or I swap my carbon rim to a alloy rims.
Been riding my rim C60 since 2017 with the Campy carbon rims....no issues.
Good assessment of rim vs. disc brakes. It is interesting how the tide has changed over the last 3-4 years though. Back then everyone was saying that the bike industry was forcing the bicycle customer towards buying disc brake equipped bikes as opposed to now people saying that consumers made the choice to like disc brakes better and the industry responded. I believe it's the former. One point of contention that was not discussed is the speed of wheel changes. No one can deny that quick release hubs allow for quicker wheel changes than thru-axel hubs. Also, has the problem with disc brake rub and the resulting annoying, ever-present sound been resolved?
I even wonder if that is an advantage for the most common use bikes have in the world -- you don't want to make life easier or your bike's wheels the more appealing target to a thief when sitting in some rack in the city, and for dealing with a flat, the rest of the job is prob the bigger time sink anyhow than just removing the wheel.
The price difference would prob be impossible to justify in such a bike though.
Rim brakes get the job done for where I ride and the way I ride. Don't need or want the extra weight, noise, complexity and maintenance headaches of disc brakes.
How are disc brakes giving you extra noise? Rim brakes are worse when it comes to that unless you do something fatally wrong with your discs
I ride a 2016 carbon road bike with rim brakes, aluminum wheels, mechanichal shifting, external cable routing, threaded bottom bracket cups. It cost me less than 1500 euros, weighs less than 7 kg with pedals and cages, rides fine, stops fine, maintenance is low, easy and cheap. You are free to spend big bucks on a modern heavy disc brake road bike with integrated proprietary headset, internal cable routing, pressfit bottome bracket and all the other new gimmicks...
Perhaps just me, I like those radial lacing on rim brake wheel spokes much more than the tangential lacing on disc brakes. From the appearance.
I don't care what the brand on the down tube is, all disc brake road bikes look sh!t in my opinion.
The rim brakes with carbon wheels may not be very good, but your Cannondale with the carbon wheels and rim brakes looks sick.
I have one of the red CAADs with carbon wheels, and to this day it still turns heads with club riders running super formed carbon disc brake bikes.
6:20 I completely agree, everyone should choose what works for them, I rode my TRC Pro 1 with rim brakes/Reynolds 62mm wheels and it was not a good experience. Although, I loved how the bike looked and rode. If i got caught in the rain, the only result of pressing brake leavers was a swooshing sound and cash register going off in my mind as I sanded the brake surface down. Hardly any stopping power. Being a 1.96m/80kg rider, the rear Reynolds wheel didn't make it to down to Sault from Mt. Ventoux without warping (and I do know how to break properly). So, for me... disc brakes, please! Thanks for another great vid, Dave!
Out of interest: What do you mean with "I know how to break properly)? The sole purpose of the (safety feature!) breaks is .... breaking. Always. I will not ever touch a rim break in my life again after a sales person told me the following. I was interrested i a Magura Hydrolic Disk break out of curiosity. He said that after a long descend you should pause breaking for a while for the breaks to cool or it may fail. Let me reiterate here: The break has to break. Always. Even if the disc is glowing.
I really do not understand anyone prefering rim breaks and risking their life in a case of failure.
@@SirSmackalot5 I believe it might be worth David considering this topic for his channel. Every braking system can fail, especially when pushed to its limits, due to factors like rider weight, materials, speed, and application time. These factors influence heat buildup and can degrade brake performance. However, this can be mitigated with the right braking technique.
To answer your question: I use an on-off braking method to minimize the duration brake pads touch the rim, reducing heat. This technique efficiently slows the bike and extends the wheel set's life. I apply lighter pressure to the rear brake and more forceful pressure to the front brake simultaneously. The front brake is more potent and cools faster due to better airflow. Still, my rear wheel (Reynolds Strike 62) failed on the descent to Sault. My comment was not related to riding in the wet on carbon/rim combination, but I found in those conditions better not to ride. There was hardly any decelartion in the first 4-5 seconds of initiating braking on Reynolds with blue pads.
The problem with sentence "everyone should choose what works for them", is that if you want rim brakes you basically has no choice.
Everything on bike can break, hating on rim brakes just because sales person once told you something is definetly kinda dumb. And bike industry is pushing far more dangerous stuff than rim brakes.
I always risk my life with dura ace on my sl4 s works tarmac with alloy fulcrum racing zero wheels, 181 cm..90 kg athletic build, never had any issue with stopping power or other similar things, riding in Alps( Austria, Italy, Slovenia), big mountain in Croatia and I will always trust rim brakes shimano dura ace with Swiss stop pads
..
I'm a really heavy-set rider (6.4 @ 116kg), and while I believe that I could profit from disc-breaks, all my bikes are based on rim-breaks - all being at least Ultegra or above, and all pads are Swissstop (against alu-rims). Can't really complain about breaking power in those set-ups, not even on descents, or in wet conditions. Would discs break better/harder/smoother? Maybe, but as of yet: in ~10000km per year there was not a single incident that had me in danger because of lack of breaking power of rim-breaks. Nevertheless: with the advent of a new frame I will go disc-break, and I'm confident that those won't disappoint me neither. TLDR: I don't really get the ongoing holy war between the disc- and rim-disciples.
I agree with David that we should have the option to chose either depending on the bike build. For example on my touring bike which I have ridden 1000's of miles I would never consider disc bikes for my aluminum rims. I simply adjust to the weather conditions and adjust my braking needs accordingly. Oh, and the wet weather argument... I don't see many high end bikes ever out in the rain in the US.
It’s one thing to purposely go out and train regardless of weather conditions and just dealing with whatever comes…and it’s another thing all together to be out on what was to be a 4 hour ride and having a pop up thunderstorm drop some heavy rain. Happens in South Florida pretty regularly.
I’d think on a touring bike discs would be always useful, no? Descending long distances with 50 pounds of weight on your bike surely is easier with hydraulic brakes.
All the comments saying carbon rims equals poor braking are true - I had some and scared myself !. That's why I went for the compromise of carbon rims with alloy brake tracks in the form of Shimano C50's . At just over 1600g for 50mm deep rims they aren't too heavy and the braking is great with Swiss Stop pads (Shimano pads pick up debris in the surface too easily) . I ride in the Peak District so the brakes get some real use on steep descents and the rims are lasting very well, the only thing I do is after a wet ride I remove the pads and clean out the grooves and emery the surface to get rid of any grit.
I have some 17,000 miles on my Reynolds Strike rim brake carbon wheels, average about 45 feet/mile of climbing/descent, don’t ride in the rain, never have felt braking was a problem, and cannot detect any wear on the brake track. Not demanding terrain or weather for brakes, but that’s probably the way it is for most of us. I accept discs are better, but I’m not replacing my rim brake bike to get them.
I find that new Shimano alloy rims wear out very quickly. If you've got wheels from more than a couple of years ago hang on to them. The new wheels are very soft and dont last long.
I got a set of carbon rims 3 years ago, using it in combination with my rim brakes and latex inner tubes. No problems whatsoever, although I ride mostly in the dry and flat roads (Netherlands). The braking performance is more than enough and the braking surface (strip) on the rims is still flawless.
Last year I got back into cycling (primarily for exercise) after several decades of my old 1974 Dawes gathering dust in the basement. I restored and updated that old steel randonneuring bike with some modern tech but I kept the rim brakes from necessity (the 1970's era steel fork wouldn't be safe with disc) and curmudgeonly preference. I also utterly resisted the disc brake notion thinking that they looked ugly and the idea sounded just dumb to me.
When I researched to buy a brand new bike for an improved ride I continued avoiding anything with disc brakes. But as I zeroed in on the final configuration that was going to satisfy me I came to realize that disc was inevitable, dammit. I wanted 40-45mm tires and rim brakes just weren't an option there.
So I now have over half a year of riding with a new bike fitted with hydraulic disc brakes (SRAM Rival) and 40mm tires versus many years (mostly in my youth) riding rim brakes and I can safely say that I have been completely won over by the disc brakes; no question. Even though maintaining rim brakes is a breeze compared to bleeding and adjusting hydraulic disc brakes, the discs are astoundingly better performing and clearly much safer for me. I have avoided a few close calls on shared pathways and that alone made it abundantly clear that disc is the right choice for me, a dyed-in-the-wool, "steel is real", kind of old fart.
You can't compare 1974 rim brakes with modern disc brakes! Try some modern rim brakes if you want a valid comparison.
@@neil4701 to be sure, I replaced the 1974 rim brakes during the upgrade process. What I have now is: alloy 650b Bucklos MTB wheelset; Dia-Compe MX1000 sidepull BMX calipers; Kool Stop Supra 2 pads, Salmon. So, while this isn't anything like DuraAce, it actually works pretty good, even when wet.
I needed the 650b wheels to get 35mm gravel tires to fit in the frame, and the long reach BMX calipers to reach the rims. I installed a Sensah Empire groupset and the resulting bike rides extremely well. Even shed a few pounds off it. 🙂
@@BruceWalkerPhotography You'd still find a *massive* difference with a more modern rim brake road bike. Those long reach calipers will be very flexy and spongy compared with something like modern Ultegra road rim brakes, partially due to the long reach and partially to the quality. Just saying.. ;-)
I'm on an 2007 Look 585 frame, DA-7900 mechanical and rim brakes. Never tried disk brakes but never had any bad experience or under-performance issues with rim brakes. Recently purchased ZIPP 303 Firecrest carbon wheels but haven't noticed any braking issues or reduced performance. However, I never ride in wet weather so never experienced rim brakes with carbon wheels. I also don't ride on long descents that require sustained braking, so no over-heating issues either. So for me and the riding I do, rim brakes are fine.
I’ve got 3 sets of Enve’s rim . I ride thousands of km’s a year. I can’t notice any wear and they brake like crazy (less in the wet).
Carbon rims with a grooved brake track surface works as good as aluminium in the wet. Its not gonna stop as quickly as a disc brake but the trade off is no rubbing.
Use campag carbon specific red pads available in Shimano fit. Game changers!
Good video, We can all agree it would be great if the manufacturers offered some mid to high tend rim brake options to keep all parties happy. A couple of years ago Canyon were offering an Ultimate model with full Ultegra mechanical rim brakes and DT Swiss All wheels £2200 approx @7KG.
Unfortunately when the first 50/50 iterations came out (groupsets from 2015/16) disc brakes made up 80% of the mid to high end bike sales. Such a drastic reduction in rim brake sales led to the extreme sudden shift of obsolescence. Only a handful of frame manufacturers are selling rim brake bikes at high end, and those that do are offering them as a frame set only (Pinarello F, Colnago C68) and if you want current electronic groupsets, you cannot buy them complete with the exception of second tier Campagnolo Record which is a few years old now. The shifters are aftermarket only and are almost never in stock ( Shimano Dura Ace, Ultegra and SRAM Red are also your only choices, the new wireless Campag EPS is disc only) There is no longer a market big enough to justify the outlay of complete bike builds. Even Giant who up until recently offered rim brake options on most of its line-up have been phasing them out.
@@matt_acton-varian They are phased out until the consumer demands they come back. Which they are now that the spell and marketing BS of disc brakes is wearing off (or just the fact that people don't like paying £5,000 for a bike).
@@chrisjie2127 Some people don't like paying huge sums for bikes but some people still do. The data for brake type sales comes from several years pre-covid and hasn't changed since. I am quite happy on rim brakes but I accept I am in an extreme minority and amidst a cost crisis brands will take decisions to reduce their costs and rim brakes are seen as unviable from an economic stance because the market share is too small.
@@matt_acton-varian "rim brakes are seen as unviable from an economic stance" - translation - we can sell disc brakes that have far higher margins and rates of replacement.
@@chrisjie2127 Disc brake technology has been developed at a significantly faster rate than rim brake tech over the same period so more money has been spent on the technology. Rim brakes have been seeing an ever diminishing rate of improvements in regards to increased performance to a near plateau. The callipers sold for aftermarket rim brake Dura Ace are rebadged callipers from the previous groupset iteration because there are no longer any tech gains to be made without drastically increasing costs. Margins are not higher especially since most manufacturers have tried to absorb the extortionate cost increase of the raw materials and shipping costs without making losses. If it really were a big money grab bikes would have fluctuated in price like a seismograph in the middle of a tsunami. A Tarmac SL7 could have reached £25,000 for a week or two last year had market prices been set to a fixed profit margin.
I have a disc and a rim brake road bike , the discs are awsome not going to lie , but fitting ee brakes with Swiss stop black prince pads to my rim brake bike was the best thing i ever did , the braking is insane , almost on par with the discs in the dry , rim brake bikes do look better in my opinion also , love the classic road bike look 👌
ask-any-top-pro-racer-80=procent-rim
These pads are only for carbon rims or aluminum?
@@sipapito for carbon rims
@@charliecook6909 Thanks!
As someone who has actually had 2 wheel-sets wear down to destruction from extensive use by calliper brakes I think it’s really important to remind people that calliper brakes do indeed destroy wheels eventually and sometimes that is an explosive event. I’m not saying it’s common but it is a reality and another factor if you’re the type that rides their bike a lot.
Yep I've destroyed two rim brake wheels over the years, both on the rear thankfully, both resulted in lock ups.
@@gregmorrison7320 so you grab the brake hard. lock up the wheel and the wheel exploded? or did you destroyed the wheel from crashing due to the lock up?
@@asiantrick24 No brake was used, the rims were worn (older rims had no wear indicators) and one was in a race, the rear rim kind of broke and peeled in two at the braking track, I wouldn't call it an explosion, but it locked the wheel, I didn't crash and got another wheel from a sag wagon to continue the race. The other time was about 50km into a fast 100km group ride, going faster than the time in the race, same thing, wheel broke and peeled at the brake track, wheel locked up, gave everyone a fright but no crash, it was a short distance to a small down and I actually found some strapping and a rag to wrap around the tube and tire to hold it on the rim and rode home on another tube at reduced pressure, it was uncomfortable as hell every revolution going bump bump bump but no cell phones back then and it got me home. In later years I've thrown rims away as they started to come out with wear indicators, had one set that lasted 2 1/2-3 years max doing about 14,000kms a year.
Generally speaking, even without rim wear indicators, letting them get that far is down to lack of inspection and maintenance. If my rims look distinctly concave I will replace them.
@@matt_acton-varian Yep, definitely pushed things too far and were on the to do list lol. Much easier now a days with wear indicators, plus I have disc brakes for those all weather rides.
It’s not about whether one is better than the other, it’s about the consumer having a choice and the bicycle industry taking away this choice.
THANK YOU!!!
Also, yes, tech and 'improvements' are all great and fine, progress marching on and all, but HOW TF did so many top pro riders in Europe NOT die while descending tall cols, on twisty broken tarmac, around off camber decreasing radius turns at insane speeds, even IN the rain, for close to a century before the advent of this "MUST HAVE" tech???!!!
I love my rim-braked bikes, the only mistake I ever made was buying a set of full carbon clinchers... they look the part but braking is worse on the dry and absent in the wet. So I also do love my disc braked 'winter' bikes. For climbing I would always opt for rim brakes. Light disc equipped bikes are incredibly expensive and I've done fast descents from mountains in the wet with rimbrakes on aluminium clinchers and that went fine.
However: if I had to buy a new bike right now I would opt for a disc braked bike. The reason is mention by you David: availability. Getting good quality wheels and parts for rim braked bikes is getting harder and harder.
Thank you for another video with beautiful classic CAAD12. Please don't stop with this one :)
I ride in a dry So Cal climate conditions and mainly on flats so I see no need to replace my rim brake bikes. Actually, due to the movement towards disc brakes is rim brake lovers are scooping up incredibly deals on top quality pre-owned bikes.
I had built up my new road bike using a new chinese frame, 105 groupset, pedals and my used wheels, tires, handle bars and some other used bits. This cost me $1500. Canadian. I had thought about building a disk brake bike with simular spec. After pricing out new rims, tires, groupset and the frame. The cost balooned up to $5000.00. Needless to say I couldn't justify building or buying a bike for that much. The new 105 brakes are very good, maybe not the best, but good enough.
I will NEVER buy a disc brake bike. It has nothing to do with consumer choice-- the manufacutrers decided that they coudl triple the prices by forcing everyone onto to disk.
For stopping a bike quickly repeatedly and predictably in all weather conditions, they are simply a better braking system. But for many use cases (dry weather, low speed, flat terrain, lightweight rider etc) rim brakes are perfect for the job.
@@Mububban23 Yes. Road discs are heavy, expensive (contemporary bikes cost x3 what they should), not aero, they squeek and rub and can be difficult to maintain. Worse of all, they can lock up and cause potentially fatal crashes.
I don't need them for my cycling practice.
I descended the Mont Ventoux with no problems on rim brakes.
And I don't believe this myth of bake track wear-down if you clean your rims and use carbon-specific brake pads.
Price increase is global and not related to disc brakes...
Then triple prices again by switching to Di2!
My two pairs of carbon rim brake wheels both have aluminium brake tracks so i get the good braking and the lightness/looks of the carbon rims. I guess these days it will be hard to find those anymore
Those aren’t carbon wheels. They’re aluminium wheels with carbon fairings…..
Good vid! I happily ride rim brakes on my Cervelo R3 with Roval rapid carbon wheels. I am a weekend warrior and I live in Houston Texas pretty flat. No worries on doing mountains just Hills in the Hill country. My Ultegra rim brakes work perfectly and I enjoy my whole bike setup!
I have road bikes with both rim brakes and disk brakes. I love the rim brakes more than disk brakes for my regular rides. But if the weather is rainy or I'm going out for a longer ride where I'm not sure about the road conditions, I definitely take my disk brakes bike.
You need specific brake pads for carbon wheels to get a good brake performance. Campagnolo red brake pads are one of the famous. Cheers
The great schism came when carbon rims with rim brakes occurred .. there we're all kinds of brakes pads introduced to improve braking in the wet, but to be honest, they were very ordinary compared to alloy rims. There were attempts to bond a alloy rim onto a carbon rim with mixed results, and t I considered them a bodge. in saying that, early discs, like Magura, had virtually no modulation (it seemed) and racing mountain bikes with them one had to be very ginger using them, whereas V brakes were vastly superior, to me...
I don't race road or mountain anymore, and personally don't feel the need for discs with the type of riding I do now, my Campag Chorus do everything I require, But if I upgrade my bike, which I am thinking of, finding new frames with mechanical shifting and rim brakes are very few and far between, but I don't feel I should be forced in to that disc/electronic scenario ...
Having ridden both Dogma Fs I feel like a few points aren't being touched upon enough: you quote consistency with which I suspect you mean braking consistency *between weather conditions. But this IMO is a luxury problem: the performance of rim brakes in the high end wheels is pretty much .1 to .2 seconds from dry to wet, and precisely this is fully consistent. I think pushing the limits during wet weather is already a questionable choice unless you're racing, but even then tyre traction is greatly more important than braking performance so again the point seems moot.
To me the biggest limiting factor are the tyres and the limitation of traction. This part is independent of the mode of braking.
To me then, the pros of rim brakes:
- Ride feel due to carbon layup
- Adjustability, as you also quoted
- Wheel changes
- Weight
- Ceiling of aero performance is higher, for example with the TriRig brakes + custom 3d printer mounting components
Disadvantages:
- Mode of braking for full carbon wheels requires high end rims, but then wearing away high end rims is not a great feeling
- Riding fast on the descents means running latex inner tubes is not recommended, since rim will inevitably heat up during braking
The advantages of disc:
- Same performance between wet and dry
- Choice of wheels (industry induced)
- Running latex inner tubes or tubolito is worry-free
Note that brake squeal is omitted from the disc disadvantages because there exist treatments and spoke choices that will eliminate the need for discs to be sterile in use.
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Just by happenstance I found myself in the recent situation whereby I had to dust down my 2015 Colnago C60 with Campag EPS V1, Enve wheels and rim brakes.
I have to admit I found it stunning to ride and in comparison, to my later model disc brake, electronic gear etc. bikes , it was every bit as good and as fast.
I've found from my recent experience the difference between a top frame rim brake and disc brake bike is not that profound.
I suspect though because my Colnago C60 is rim brake it is likely to be a half to a third the price of a disc brake bike.
In the wash up to my recent experience I don't think disc brakes are must or a game change. Rather, rim braking bikes still have a lot to offer and in many respects just as good.
The things I don't like about discs are hydraulics being harder to set up (for me at least), and they seem harder to keep quiet. My next bike will no doubt have them though.
Try some carbon Campy or Fulcrum Racing wheels with Campy pads. You won't be saying that rim brakes are inferior to disks. Of course wet weather disks are better. But Campy/Fulcrum wheels and pads are amazing. I'm sure there are others out there also.
My classic alloy bike has campy carbon tubs with the chorus 12spd calipers and pads and it does work very well in the dry. In saying that if I'm riding in the hills I'll take my disc bike especially if a risk of moisture. Often forgotten us that you don't need rain to get the rim wet it can be temperature change or just riding through must or fog.
Rim brakes were ok for me but since switching to discs I've been able to get rid of the winter bike and winter wheelsets. Just one bike now, with one wheelset that gets used all year round, wet or dry with everything from commuting to racing. Contrary to what some people think, it's a much simpler life with discs.
I've always loved rim brakes, Cannondale too. But as a 95 kg rider who lives in a hilly town, I always felt uncomfortable. I just had to switch to discs. Disc brakes have been amazing, no rubbing or whatnot.
Disc gives confidence when bombing down a 10% hill with my 87kg ass lol
I can understand how people living in flat areas didn't feel the need for discs but where I live, the discs have been great. I often descend twisty double digit descents and having the disc brakes have been hugely helpful. I also had an old rim brake tarmac SL4 that despite having the bike shop bring the levers in closer for my shorter hands, I still had issues reaching them with a solid grip. Pair that with bumpy roads and it would just add to the lack of enjoyment when descending. I have a rim brake TT bike which works well enough since its on the flats but I'll never go back to rim for my road bikes.
Same. My son has a bike with rim brakes, and the first time I went down a double-digit gradient on that thing I was quite sure that disc brakes are the only answer for me. Far more yet when the roads are wet.
Commuting in college last winter made me realize how terrible rim brakes were. Sure, they worked, but every time it rained I was stuck with poor brake performance. I’d have loved the security of hydraulic discs then. That’s not even going into the better modulation they offer, either.
Agreed. I did the Fred Whitton a few years back on a rim brake Tarmac, where you are either on the brakes as soon as you go over the top of Honister, Hardknott ( yes, I walked), Wrynose etc, or you are the person lying by the stone bridge with a paramedic tending to you, and my hands were killing me by the end of those descents, and I have fairly large hands. But in normal, dry conditions, I think Ultegra rim brake calipers with swiss block pads are great and with less tendency to squeal or ting, ting.
Direct mount ee brakes being specced on my new build. Shouldn't have any issues going down Mount Lemmon.
Isn’t it horses for courses? My single speed commuter is perfect with rim brakes. My light weigh SuperSix Evo has rim brake/carbon wheel combo but would never ride it in the wet. My Synapse has discs and perfect for those weekend battles and sportives in all weather. If I had only one bike..has to be discs though.
Without watching the video: Yes.
Without watching the video. Long live the Rim brakes!
@@SonofHannder Maybe you would like drum brakes on your car too..
😂😂👌 every Mainstream Cycling TH-camr is wrong about Rim Brakes 🤷🏼♂️
Ok . except DurianRider
The rim job will never go out of style.
@@wyatberp3611comparing apples with potatoes
I have a bike with 105 rim brakes but im not a coper - disc brakes are superior to rim brakes. Levers are easier to press and less tiring, there is no worry about cable routing bends, there is less to worry about contaminants picked up from road smearing on the rim and decreasing brake performance in rainy weather, the mainteneance is actually a dead simple since most of the bikes won't even need a change of braking fluid if you ride on flat terrain, so that leaves you with braking pads[super simple], replacing braking rotor[again, very simple] and maybe replacing fluid every 5 years or so. I find that you can modulate both types of brakes similarily, disc brakes are just way more responsive and needs some learning to not ham fist them. With modern designs, disc brakes can be as aero as rim brakes, the only small downside is still the weight, but it is very close if you use highest tier with carbon-titanium rotors.
back in the 80's and early 90's breaking and tire performance/weather determined if i was going to ride. Now I ride year round and in all weather situations, disc brakes just work well.
Nice perspective Arthur:). For me, its not about the brake system itself, I have have both systems available, and both systems generates sufficient brake power for my purpose. As I see it, the thing with disc is the 'inversed' transfer of energy trough especially the front wheel. over time time I assume the spokes will wear or fail more often than a rim wheel. I you are a pro - no issue - but as a amateur I think your wheelset wont last as long as you are used to. The stress on the wheels, fork etc..is in a different league compared to the rim brake construction.
A decent alloy brake track in the dry is perfect. I own both systems and I like both.
I live four city blocks from the start of an 18-mile, 4,100-foot alpine climb. I love shooting down the descent at over 40 MPH, which is insanity with rim brakes. I prefer the reliability and feel that hydraulic disc brakes provide.
I'm in a similar situation atm, commuting on my older rim brake bike after spending the past two years on discs. Makes a world of difference, dry or wet conditions, to the point that I HAVE to improve the rim brake system to keep using it. Right now they're too unresponsive to have any modulation and can hardly lock my rear wheel. I don't feel safe with traffic around me, especially in the wet and/or on slight declines. So now I'm asking myself, how are rim brakes "simpler", as most people argue. They're dependent on so many things: fresh cables/housings, proper cable routing, buying some very special high-end pads (not cheaper!), toeing them in, cleaning them and the brake track regularly, cleaning and lubing the brake calipers (not easier!)... Disc brakes are fit and forget. Maybe bleed once or twice per year. Swapping pads is cheap and easy. No further adjustments. With rim brakes, I have to readjust every time I pop the wheel on or off, because the tyre won't fit between the pads (with the caliper open), also performance suffers if my rim goes out of true, so I have to keep that in check as well. And why? To save a few grams and be a good old traditionalist? Not to mention that a hydraulic brake won't ever fail completely the way a snapped cable would. I've had a shifter cable snap once, wouldn't want that on my brake line. Luckily, can't happen with hydro.
Man, rim brakes with alloy hoops is the sweetspot
Rim brakes with aluminum tacked carbon rims, like the Campagnolo Bullet worked well. However they can’t match the weight of a carbon only rim. Caliper brakes, as on touring and cross bikes, allowed for more tire clearance than with rim brakes on road racing bikes. Now that larger tires with wider rims are being used to reduce rolling resistance, most rim brakes just don’t have the clearance. Also, with the advent of the adventure/ do-it-all bike, one has the option of using different wheels 700 or 650 to increase tire width for more off road alternatives. I ride only rim, caliper on my ‘90’s MTB, but if I was to go to bike packing/touring or gravel, and especially with a new XC MTB, disc is the only way to go! Has so many advantages and options in these applications.
Try Elitewheels with UD brake surface and their brown brake pads. The braking is similar to my previous aluminium wheels. I use 105 dual pivot brakes
With respect to you using the carbon wheels with that model of calliper. Those are designed for modulation with a narrow rim leading to the sensation you experience. It’s harder to fine a wider set of carbon rim brake wheels that those. Swap out the callipers it’s night and day.
I loved my Rim brake bike and descended the local alpine hills pretty quickly, however I also burned through two sets of wheels on sustained descent. Now I know if I descent and overheat something it's a consumable to replace not a wheelset
I do have a carbon wheel disc brake bike. But the few times I got caught in a pouring rain it was pretty awful. If it's dry, they're perfectly adequate (and light and easy to work on). But their performance is just not as good as my bike with disc brakes. Shimano Ultegra in both cases. I did find Reynolds Cryo Blue Power pads helped a lot on rim brakes. But $$.
Hi, I live in Bala and I have descended Bwlch y Groes on aluminium and carbon rim brakes. I think there are no issues with the latest carbon rim wheels from Hunt and Scribe and I think people need to remember that the first time a disk bike won the TDF was 2022.
A good point is that rim brake in driy areas are perfectly suited to cover everything. So if you live in california like I do abosolutely no reason to change to disc. But finding a rim brake frame is very difficult now if you want to continue using them. Unfortunate
Rim's are better overall. No disk rubbing, easier maintenance, more brake control, lighter, cheaper and more durable.
Wrong
except for the whole braking thing
I do wonder whether people who make these comments have acutally had a proper go on a disc brake bike. I used to be a fellow 'rim brakes are better' Marta until I demoed a hydro disc road bike. They are just better in terms of outright power, wet weather performance (big plus for me) and potential 1 finger operation (like on mtb's). Rim brake bikes are toally fine, and will always have the potential to be lighter, but imo discs do offer a genuine performance benefit.
@@darrinforteir3621Right, disc brakes need zero maintenance. By the time you take them to the shop you'll probably get a new bike. Rim brakes need tinkering with and adjusting, but I LOVE to do that
How much does it cost to service and change rotors? Can we all do it ourselves? Why would you ride in the rain? I race every weekend and I'll leave disc brakes to my mtb and gravel bike thanks.
On a road bike one needs to pedal fast instead of braking. Otherwise he finishes late. 🤷♂
One of the issues with rim brakes is that innovation for them is either extremely sluggish or non-existent, yet there is still room for improvement with today's technology and thinking. I wonder how far you can actually take this braking system these days if there was some more R&D put into making them really good. Like what about double pads on each side for extra stopping surface, maybe line the rims with grooves for better friction points for the pad to bite on to.
Thanks, David, for sharing your experiences and with your Cannondale test mule, how about an aluminum front rim and something carbon in back, if you have to ride some carbon. That might be a good combo for a retro bike and that Cannondale sure does look good, especially at the price these days.
Like the set of Campag bullets on my bike - 50mm carbon with alloy rim - which give the benefits of both aero and good rim braking
Use CX bikes with disc on my new bike. Will not go back to rim brake for general use due to barely stopping on the downhills where I live on alloy rims with cantilever brakes. Plus other reasons of tire clearance when gunked up, wheel damage, etc that happens to wheels used for CX and off-tarmac. Cantilever is still on the the race singlespeed for the retro bike. Rim caliper brakes good on alloy rims road, not on carbon in all conditions with the caliper brakes.
I’ve got Hunt Carbon wheels combined with rim brakes. No issues at all in my experience. Don’t ride when it’s wet very often mind you.
My rim brake on my Campagnolo Boro WTO is very good, however in the wet the braking performance isn’t great. I’ll be purchasing my first disc brake bike soon. Finger’s crossed.
A well set up pair of rim brakes (especially direct mount type) can be really good but there is no doubt they are unreliable in the wet, are inconsistent, destroy wheels making them often financially unviable for rebuild, and also hamstring frame designers. Disc brakes just work; you fit them and then basically chuck new pads in from time to time, replace the odd rotor and thats about it. Needing to bleed them constantly isn't really a thing for the most part.
I've been riding disc brake bikes (road and gravel) for about five years. I still ride a road bike with rim brakes on occasion, however. When riding that bike (equipped with Ultegra brakes and Hed wheels with aluminum rims) I am reminded at how inferior its braking performance is in comparison with my disc brake bikes (and that's in dry conditions, let alone in the wet). Yes, disc brakes are heavier and more difficult to set up. But the safety improvements they provide mean that I will never look back longingly at the days of riding with rim brakes.
@@dickieblench5001 I never wished for better brakes, either. But when I when I acquired my first disc brake bike, the inferiority of rim brakes was readily apparent.
@@dickieblench5001the better your brakes the later you can brake coming into a corner
Everybody talking safety. But If you race, if you wanna real feel of flying uphill when pushing max effort into pedals then you must choose rim brakes. Discs brake better, but sluggish tractor I feel underneath me while climbing 10% climbs is thw worst feeling ever
I like rim brakes, my question is why people want to spend so much money in carbon rims when the weight is very similar to aluminum rims, disc hydraulic brakes are very heavy and they always need adjustment, contaminate etc etc
In dry on my lappiere on Carbon wheels rim are perfect:). When it's wet I ride my gravel with disc. Where do you ride in the Cotswolds, I have some lovely routes around white horse Ridgeway if you fancy coming along :)
I've had disc brakes on my last and previous bike not impressed specifically when commuting in the rain
My MTB has disk brakes, started with rim brakes in 1988. Dirt and wet conditions are a bad combination, the aluminum rims wear out quickly.
When it comes to my racing bike, I still ride the same racing bike since 1992 (Restomod F. Moser) and I don't see any point in swapping.
I'm missing the aesthetic component of the whole discussion.
For me, a beautiful classic steel frame with rim brakes is a reason to enjoy getting on a racing bike and riding...
Thanks for your honest opinion. I know you are not a fan of down slope top tube, I don't like it either, here is one idea for a future video: compare the advantages of the down slope with the horizontal top tubes, I think there are practical reasons why most new bikes are with a down slope.
So the downfall/error is in fact carbon rims not rim brakes. But this has always been the case hasn't it? The tail wagging the dog hahah.Ive ridden over 3 decades & live in the mountains & have always preferred alum rims. Did try Campy Hyperons when they first came out & decided the juice was not worth the squeeze. I have never worn out any alum rims including the old lightweight Mavic GEL 280's when running tubulars. These days Campy Zonda's are fine for me. But rim brakes of course
When disc brakes were first introduced on road bikes I only saw them on entry level bikes, at the time I was working at a local bike shop. It made me think that they were only on entry level bikes because beginner riders were not familiar with rim brakes or how to properly use them, especially on wet conditions or on a long descent. I knew for a fact that disc brakes gave the new road rider that little extra confidence to get on the road. I also ride both disc and rim bekes and honestly I don’t prefer one over the other, I’m experienced enough to get the most out of my rim brakes on any condition and also love the look of my disc brake bike.
For carbon fiber rim brake wheel , you need to buy wheel that add special brake surface that can withstand the heat up to 320 celcius. It will brake almost as good as aluminium rim brake
The rippled brake track on the zipp nsw‘s works like a treat. I’ll not ride them in the wet anyway to keep them longer alive. Keen to see how disc brakes will further evolve.
Bravo sir, couldn’t agree more. Disc brakes are awesome and if you want to ride rim brakes that’s cool too. 😎👍🏻
Also a shame when swissside stopped making their alu brake track 62mm (and 42mm) deep wheels, great aerodynamics and braking, touch heavier but altogether a great package
If there is rim brakes in the market, people will buy it. They put it out not cos there is no demand, but cos they want to force people to use disc brakes. That’s all.
But braking with rim brakes and aluminium wheels in wet is just as good as dry. Voting with oir walet wasn't the case here the move came from the manufactures.
How are the disc brakes performing in wet once you find out they've been contaminated, which on the the road happens more ofthen then when ridig on trails?
Can you unboxing,test and review about groupset ultegra 12 speed
I have high-spec'd bikes in rim and disc brakes. I use Swiss Stop pads for the rim brake bikes. Honestly, I cannot notice any improvement in braking performance in most weather conditions with disc brakes - the only ones that are hair raising are rim brakes with my carbon wheels (WTOs)- bloody worrying in general.
And for the weight trade-off and a simple life, give me rim brakes any day.
Disk brake courses a lot of problems. Most of my pats are force into disc brake bike and after awhile they all complained about the same one issue and it’s annoying as hell. You will know when you know.
I recommend looking at the juintech F1 or G series hybride mechanical disk brakes. Far more affordable, lighter, and with braking that is almost at the hydro level you can buy sram red mech levers for less than 300 pounds at 280g :D.
I have been riding a steel bike for 16 years with the same brake cable. I never have a problem going downhill or skidding in two inches of water. Am i careful. going downhill? yes. Sometimes I 6:54 regulate my speed going downhill by standing up. Do i inspect the cable? Yes (ok. it is time to change it. It takes 5 minutes. It is all easy.)
I also never had a problem in the rain. I can lay skids in two inches of water. Do i test them before I need? absolutely. I never had an issue. You just have to be more cognizant. 6:26 6:33
I had actually no idea that disk brakes were so predominate with road bikes. I kind of have my own little riding world where I almost never have chats with other road bike riders, and rarely see them also. They aren't as popular where I live as other types of bikes. Good point about the more affordable or value bikes. Caliper rim breaks came standard on the State Bicycle model I bought this year, and since I had those on the old 10-speed I had when I was a teenager in the 1970s, it was a continuation and a reacquainting for me. The bike has been super and the brakes (with more planning ahead) have been super for me also. I can't see getting a set for a road bike unless they came standard on another bike. I have them on my Marine hybrid with it's 35C front and 38C rear tires so I'm understanding of the nature and the differences.