Tony Joseph on who were the early Indians and what does it have to do with a pizza
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ก.ค. 2024
- If our prehistory should teach us anything, it is that old cliché: unity in diversity. We live in a geographical region that can be termed a common civilizational and conversational area. The topics of our intellectual and cultural discussions, debates and disputes are uniquely our own but we do not have a consensual set of answers: our answers and responses are dependent upon the different traditions and historical experiences that different groups among us carry. We as Indians have lived through the same history too, but we have experienced some of it from different ends. The difference in political or even eating preferences between southern and eastern India on the one hand, and northern and western India on the other hand, are a reflection of the kind of differences that there are, and some of them are deep-going
In a conversation with ThePrint, author Tony Joseph talks about who the early Indians were and what it had to with pizza.
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So we're a kind of genetic bhel puri is it ?
Everybody is. They just don't know it yet. Race is a social construct.
Europeans were not "European" until Aryans conquered them all
Hell yeah
In this video TJ partially sidesteps the question around the Rakhigarhi skeleton. He acknowledges that the skeleton does not have steppe ancestry/DNA but remains silent on the other finding which says that the skeleton also DOES NOT HAVE Iranian farmer ancestry.
Kind of confirms that he has a bias in the story he would like to tell!
And that proves what? I am curious to know.
@@risingsun8609
It kinda shows that the primary hypothesis that Indian Agricultural development hasn't been influenced by Iranian farmers as Mr Tony Joseph would say catalysed by Iranian farmers.
A must read book, Mind blowing ❤️
Yep
You wasted your time on shit
So why is there a caste system and why do i belong to a forward caste? Who determined where i should belong. Is This similar to europe's system, where certain people did certain jobs, like those with the name "smith" works with metals and those with the name "chandler" are candlemakers, and the name "piper" means your people play music with pipes.
According to the book, the caste system came about in 100 CE which is much later than the Indus civilisation and aryan migration. It also comes centuries after the vedas were written. According to Mr. Joseph, caste system opposes everything india stood for from 7000 bce to birth of vedas around 1000 bce.
@@sahilnambisan2942 Caste system got strength when upper-caste thinks that my next generation should be upper and they should not go to the lower caste. Before it was interchangeable but this thought ruined many people's life. Varna/ caste system was brought by Aryans. And got more worst by divide and rule policy by british.
Sam Chacko hanging on to fwd caste 😂
@@kanaknagarkatti3115 I'm not hanging on I'm asking why I don't get benefits, somebody put forward caste label on me to not get me benefits, I want benefits I don't want the forward caste label, you can have it if you want sir
Best book in my collection.. Sad no Kindle Version..
Genetics saved the day.
Mr. Joseph can take the cake away from Rudyard Kippling of the “White Man’s Burden” in(fame) in a racism context. The
historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5478/
The cover of his new book features a dark skinned naked (supposedly aboriginal girl) waiting for the superior light skinned races of (only men, no women!) from West Asia (once again a loosely defined term), Central Asia (ditto) and Europe to bring civilization in the form superior genes, language and culture.
www.indiatoday.in/magazine/leisure/story/20190107-early-indians-tony-joseph-review-1419016-2018-12-28
Such blatant and hateful racism is ok as long it comes from the leftist/Marxist wing of India.
@@mkelkar1 I wonder why only these sort of baseless allegations come from the North Indians ( presumably of the sang Parivar style of blunder bombing )
@@indianetizen North Indians can't accept that we are mixed race with different percentage of different DNAs of different races. They only think that we all are pure Aryanas.
@@ph6263 more than that perspective i guess you should look into an even more macro level game that's played these decades. The top class Nagpur centric Brahmin clan fellows knows these facts and they also know that such empirical evidences are going to be big road block to keep their wider-hindutva vote bank agendas (where they openly say all hindus are brethren and also keep up the caste system of untouchability and despise humans upon colour and looks - in their pvt lives)
The scandalous transfer of the archeologists of keezhadi site at Tamil Nadu and attempts to bury the site where the Dravidian (or even earlier proto Dravidian people of the region) shared Harappan and indus valley styled lifestyle and town planning, was only a latest and presumably one of the few exposed cases of the sort !
There is presumably a sinister crime syndicate that works well with these gullibles to keep them imbeciles as long as they need to be in the privilege and power. Their efforts is what resonates in such baseless justifications of "bhakts" .
@@indianetizen yes these bhakts are ridiculous , they aren't believe in science. Yes most of the scriptures of the oldest Hindu deities found in South India. The harppans were mainly nature worshippers and also scripture worshippers . But the fact is that Dravidians aren't the true descendants of Harppans they share common DNAs with Andmanese people and also some south Tamilian Tribals. Todays south Indians is a mixed race of Dravidians and also of Aryan migrants. However if we deeply analyse the the DNA factors it widely changes from South to North , that means a Maharashtrian people shares more common DNAs with Keralite than a Bihari has common with Keralite. You can also observe it by cultural means , that two nearby regions have more common cultures.
All lie
It would be nice to get Mr Shrikant Talageri or Dr. Koenraad elst to give their perspective on the issues Mr. Joseph raises. They present their facts as emphatically and with what appears like good scientific rigor. A balanced presentation re this critical issue is important
Koenraad Elst is not a scientist or cares about science. They are simply support sangh ideology or so create theories based on that.
We need DNA scientists talking about it.
@@thenewtwenties But this isn't just a science issue. It is also a culture and history issue, which is why people with knowledge about Indian history and culture like Elst and Talageri should talk about it.
@@thenewtwenties Koenrad elst will talk about works done by Niraj Rai. He is a legit geneticist. That is where you can find the truth.
Talegeri has no scientefic evidence only linguistic
There are many loop holes in Tony Joseph’s book and new genetic studies have already revealed it. The R1a1 genes now starts to show that it all started in India around 15/25K years ago and future studies will reveal it more confirmed way.
Howeer, the warring horseriding Adronovo/Sintashta/
Steppe culture were active in the area and rhe rich IVC had never been attacked before.
Relevant excavation have not found human remains consisent with an invasion but the IVC with 5 million inhabitants surely disaopeared in 1900bc. The only explanation can be
systematic evacuation of the valley to preempt an imminent invasion. That would be the planned and wise strategy of the IVC. Further, they migrated east and south, eventually mixing with native hunter gathers to become the ASI
Hence Speculation which dr.Babasheb Ambedkar had were right after all 👍 but still i am curious on what caused the starting of endogamy after all this mixing
Take test people then u know where u kom from.Simple &easy.
That is, did out of Africa people become a distinct race in India over time, in terms of bone structure, hair, skin color etc, like they did everywhere else in the world? The adivasies who are considered the originals do not look like negroids of Africa in terms of all of their physical features.
Do you think people in Africa stopped changing and evolving after humans first originated? If people elsewhere did so, surely they would too? What a ridiculous question
So, a garden variety journalist can also be an expert on population genetics at will, who knew.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reich_(geneticist)
Early Indians by Tony Joseph explains in a simple manner the complexity of who are Indians. It summarizes the phenomena quite well. This does not mean that the book dos not have certain flaws. It has at least two flaws which were exposed by further research.
Flaw No. 1 - The second wave of migration from Iran was Iranian agriculturists and hence agriculture came to Harappa/ India from Iran. This has been disproven by the DNA analysis of the Rakhigarhi skeleton dated 2500 BC which shows that the Harappan people did not have Iranian farmer DNA, rather they had Iranian DNA which preceded Iranian farmers as well as Iranian hunter gatherers. For some reason Tony Joseph seems keen to suggest that Indian agriculture has Iranian roots. Caution: The new study is based on one skeleton and for the study findings to be taken seriously, the number needs to go up to 100 or more.
Flaw No. 2 - Tony Joseph needlessly gets into the Saraswati debate and even distorts that debate.. The question around Saraswati is whether it existed as a real river and if yes, which river is/was it. Instead TJ links Saraswati and the Aryan migration. He says that some people are trying to prove that Harappa and Vedic is the same by bringing up Saraswati. I don't think that is the real question.
Given the emotional and political nature of the Vedic concept, most 'experts' align themselves to one or the other side of the debate. TJ is guilty of the same. Whereas his effort to summarize is good, his inclination to take sides is not. Hopefully he will come up with a post script based on new research.
In general I recommend the book but advise readers to be cautious in believing everything that the book says.
Actually if U are not African U are a CRO-MAGNON..And ur history starts in the URAL MOUNTAINS in the steppes and u were building..BONE HUTS IN RUSSIA..GOOGLE BONE HUTS IN RUSSIA!!!
River Saraswati and AIT are very related bro.
Folks... Earlier Aryans invaded Harappans. Then Aryans migrated to India. Now pizza...!
Tony Joseph claim that OUT OF INDIA THEORY has no academic base is a wrong one.
BB Lal and NS Rajaram have published papers debunking the Aryan theory.
I will pay a trillion dollars to who disproves Aryan Invasion Theory! LOL
Then mention sources for the theory you were claiming to be not baseless.
Africans migrated to Inuds Valley from modern day Djibouti....the proliferated ther,,about some times later,,,,,Some Indians went on the horsebacks to Europe and cleared of all the men in a genocide in europe.then mated with the women which is proved by Indian Haplo Group in non african european males today because they have Indian Haplo Group.These people were called YAMNAYA.
The Aryan Invasion is a myth because the Anglo saxans wanted dark skinned and fair or brown skinned people to seperate so that they can rule over us...........
The only provable theory here is the fact that everyone proginated from Africans, the rest is stories!
Shou out to all African people! Much respect to you guys.
Yes they are decendents of ethopians , which is reality
The Indus Valley Civilizat,ion sppeared to have ended in 1900bc. But 5 million inhsbitants living in over 2000 Cities spread over 1000kms of waterfront on the Indus river system. waterfront cannot disappear without very good reason. The IVC has never been known to be under a deteriorating climatic or geographic condition, over such a large area, during the course of its history. There is no direct evidence either The IVC weee a healthy, happy, wealthy and flourishing culture at the time in 1900bc.
Disagree with milk theory
To aap research kar dijiye.
@@bpp827 🤣
This book is CACA
So wait, you are saying Indians are ...
Think how funny it will sound when Modi Yogi Ramdev find out that their ancestors were from Arab Muslim world. Man they will be damn screwed for life😜😜😜
That can be certainly not true.
Arab world wasn't Muslim 7000 years ago, you clown
🤣
Dear clown....there has never been any Aryan invasion/migration/tourism/excursion /picnic into India....Good luck listening to these idiots who are journalist on one day and genetics exopert on another day😂😂
Sentinelese are the pure race.
I think both arguments for and against a 'migration into India' theory have to be taken with a pinch of salt. The field of Genetics continues to evolve, and is nowhere close to perfect. I just read about identical twins who got slightly different genetic results, as conclusions are still largely based on statistical analysis of samples of the genetic data. I'm glad though, that as the science gets better (along with processing power and analytics), we'll have a better understanding of human evolution. In the meantime, we can have ringside seats at the various arguments flying around
only reasonable comment on this thread.
Homo sapiens did not originate in India. Therefore it is only possible that all people in India had ancestors who migrated into India at various times.
That girl says yeah yeah yes too much.
This man does not answer her question. What race were the original
The original inhabitants were the Out of Africa migrants who left that continent to settle the rest of the world over 50,000 years ago. We don’t know much about those of them that came to India because there’s no remaining linguistic record and little genetic information.
Mad
🙄😶aap kya chahte h k hum mar jaaye.... Jo PIl file kr rhe h cancellation k against mei..... 🙄 MATLAB aapko esa bilkul nhi lgta k life is more precious than our boards .....🙄😑10th standard k bache v mehant kiye the.... Kyu unke saath naa insafi hui h kya.... Tb kuch nhi bola toh ab kyu bol rhe ho..... 😑Exam dene aap nhi hum jaa rhe h ... Jaan ka darr apko nhiii hame h
Cancel karo exam ko
I seriously wish at least once The Print would support the right side then I get to remember they not just leftist in politics but even for India as well. Tony Joseph's theory of Aryan Migration has to lead to many changes to make it look truly worthy however we all educated Indians know the facts now all thanks to Abhijit Chavda. When there are no proofs of Aryans migration available across the globe I don't know how much time these guys will take to make changes in our legacy NCERT books which have baseless theories of Aryan Migration. People like Tony are no better than the pawns of Britishers looking to lick their asses by writing on top of baseless theories. One of the greatest historians challenged Tony to come over for a debate online this guy never even bothered to join him we all know the reason.
WTF, u r comparing an idiot that backs sanata dharma to a guy that spreaks history thru archeology, DNA tracing, genetics. No wonder this book has hurt so many dumbo's sentiments.
Shout out for this whatsapp University guy 😂
@@KK-px4ey Looks like you have actually sold your soul to british so called historians like Bishop Coldwell just like how Tony Joseph did. There are 2 kinds of people one who talks with logics and facts then argument about topic and another category is yours who gives a ratsass about facts and logics but still follow it because you have your modus operandi behind it and try living in bubble of 'Wishful thinking'.
low intelligence people like you are th problem whit india, you don't even have the sense to understand how stupid you sound.
A well made German theory systematically being propagated in the minds of Indians...... Good work indeed !!!
Go back to Europe higher caste 🐖
@@jayakrishnan26 well I am not.
@@jayakrishnan26 proof
@@siddhartgharge773 then stfu
@@harshitthapliyal7277 read Aryan Invasion theory
Mr. Tony Have you Read the Vedas and Puranas ..???? and at least the Bhagvad Gita and have uderstood that in ESSENCE..????? if not then you are attempt writing about India..without knowing is a poor joke..
What is your point bro?
So according to one has to read Quran to know about genetics of middle East .
@@KK-px4ey the point is about the belief system values and its origin and its level. You just cannot understand India without reading the value system. TONY has never understood...
@@sharatkumarkanth when one's religious belief system and values started to guide modern scientific approach ??
Who built Indus Valley Civilization?
Many scholars believe that Neolithic Iranians (Iranian Agriculturalists)/Elamites got mixed with South Asian Hunter Gatherers and formed I.V.C.
Every Historian who specialized in Indian History knows that before the Aryans entered India , The Elamites had entered India.
Some claim that it was Dravidian culture.
Meluḫḫa is the Sumerian name of a prominent trading partner of Sumer during the Middle Bronze Age. Most scholars associate it with the Indus Valley Civilization.
Many scholars today who confidently identify Meluhha with the Indus Valley Civilization (modern South Asia) on the basis of the extensive evidence of trading contacts between Sumer and this region. Sesame oil was probably imported from the Indus River region into Sumer: the Sumerian word for this oil is illu (Akkadian: ellu). One theory is that the word is of proto-Dravidian origin: in Dravidian languages of South India, el or ellu stands for sesame. An alternative, proposed by Michael Witzel, is that it derived from a "para-Munda" language spoken in the Indus Valley Civilization.
There is extensive presence of Harappan seals and cubical weight measures in Mesopotamian urban sites. Specific items of high volume trade are timber and specialty wood such as ebony, for which large ships were used. Luxury items also appear, such as lapis lazuli mined at a Harappan colony at Shortugai (modern Badakhshan in northern Afghanistan), which was transported to Lothal, a port city in Gujarat in western India, and shipped from there to Oman, Bahrain and Sumer.
The Dravidians began in south-eastern Iran when Elamites migrating from the west (Khuzistan area) mixed with Eritrean Africans who had settled in the Ormozgan area. These African settlers had crossed Southern Arabia to get to south-eastern Iran and were absorbed by the Elamite migrants, becoming a new people called the Dravidians. The Dravidians migrated to the Indus River valley in 7000 BC, where they mixed further with Nihalis and Adivasis, and later the Mundas. They spread out to occupy the entire Indian sub-continent, but were later confined to the southern part when the Indo-Aryans arrived in India around 1300 BC.
Where did the Elamites come from? In 18,000 BC, the Kebarans (Proto-Boreans) arrived in Mesopotamia from the Horn of Africa. In 15,000 BC they split into the Nostratics, the Dene-Daics, the Afro-Asiatics, and the Amerinds. Around 12,000 BC, the Nostratics split into the Elamites, the Kartvelians, and the Eurasiatics (ancestors of the Indo-Europeans, and many others). The Dravidians branched off from the Elamites around 7000 BC.
The Elamitic language does resembles Dravidian. Mr.David McAlpin (Researcher) has made a demonstration based on 57 Elamite words (mostly verb stems) paired with corresponding Dravidian terms. The correspondences are, on the whole, straightforward and interlocking. A beginning is made in reconstructing the phonology of Proto-Elamo-Dravidian. Dravidian languages share more than 20% of their vocabulary with Elamite.
Below are some of the examples.
Elamites Dravidian Meaning
Un Unnu Eat/Drink
Vur Uru Place
Atta Attan Father
Slive Shiluve Holy Cross
Amma Amma Mother
Kol Kollu Kill
Ah Ah That
Hih Ih This
Illu Ellu Sesame
Elam Elam Land
Ni Ninu You
Even Lord Krishna was from Elamite clan or at least has close affinity with Elamites.
Kiririsha was Elamite God. Below us the link:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiririsha
Dravidian&Elamite came from the same region but they were different people.
You fool, Toney Joseph, you are blatant liar. Go and check the chronology of Rigveda, Ramayana and Mahabharata by Nilesh Oak. You don't even know Vedic understand nor you understand the dynasty of Kings in the hoary past in Rigveda , Upanishads , Ramayana and Mahabharata. If you are honest carefully understand the astronomical references in these texts, paleo-channels of Saraswathi and what the ancient texts say about river Saraswathi. Hope this enlightens you darkness with light.
Aryan north upper cast not indians ?thats why they white like persians mmm
@Vidya i dont know upper cast north hindus are same look like iranians .
Lol he says mixing happened
Also says bramhin has higher r1a1 Gene
How can this happen
After mixing everyone has the same r1a1 Gene🤣🤣 rip logic
Having r1a1 doesn't mean that you have more aryan ancestry. r1a1 is a paternal haplogroup which only males have. Read about what haplogroup means.
He said the mixing of Aryans is not uniform across subcontinent.
Don't worry you do hesitate when you are not sure what you ate saying, I mean eating habits are not social outcome then what it is??
And second thing how can 72% people can be last migrant ?
@Free fire lover 72% of Indians are called indo-aryan ethenic group, get some knowledge.
Sorry there was no Aryan invasion. We Indians are mixed and have been in India for thousands of years .Simple.
Brahmins are cousons to us pakistanis who stopped along rivers of punjab and kicded out black IVC people who moved to north and south india.Our cousons the brahmins were more intrepid and moved to north india and had to create caste system to rule over vast numbers of real old indians. We love brahmins as they keep indians progress in check.
I will pay a trillion dollars to who disproves Aryan Invasion Theory! LOL
Tony Joseph the name says it all😠
If a name says it all then go on www.familysearch.org and check out Varma from 1600 onwards. There are 12000 with similar names all over Europe.
@Dheeraj George Shows you're a religious fanatic. We are talking about SCIENCE.
@Dheeraj George propaganda by Abharamic religions to break the Country and Convert the Masses😠😠😠😠😠😠😠😠😠😠😠
@@vikasreddy7647 I get it ur a member of Pappu Sena
@@vikasreddy7647 There's nothing wrong with fascism and RSS isn't fascist enough.
Every thing wrong with Democracy where politicans buy votes through Money and loot the Country , whether it's BJP or Congress or whatever party .
And Democratic Countries where Adultery isn't regarded as Crimes and Rapists roam free will go to Gutter
You are a big lier. It ia pure race. There was no other race was there. Total lie . You people are jelous. Nobody came as civilization . Indians are in India . We agree with our scriptures not your books . Yout theory is nonsense. Retire. Total lie.
Don't tell that you are a guy from " IT CELL"😂
This book is utter nonsense - arriving at far fetched conclusions from small amounts of supporting data. What about the south indian civilization recently discovered at keezhadi?? So where or who are those people that form the base of the pizza.
What a crock of shit !!!🤣🤣🤣🤣
Tony Joseph himself is a foreigner. Moreover he is a journalist not a historian. This country belongs toharappens and sindus(dravidians).
The interview would be much enjoyable if that girl kept her mouth shut.
He is talking crap