Dany in the books isn’t perfect, but she learns and grows from her experiences. In the the show it’s almost as if she regresses, she relies on others to make poor decisions for her and she is not emotionally developed. Not the character George wrote! Thanks for spelling that out more clearly. Great vids guys!!
Inspite of how 'kind hearted' she may be, the possibility is very high that she will go as mad as Aerys if not worse? And why is that? Cause multiple generations of inbreeding will increase the likelihood of producing defective freakshow offspring that tend to miss a couple marbles or chromosomes. And keep in mind. The Targaryens are infamous for multiple generations of inbreeding, and have produced a lot of mad, paranoid, and physically deformed offspring that grew up to be Kings and Queens who burned the world down. Case(s) in point: Maegor (later in his reign), Rhaenyra, Aegon II, Baelor the Blessed, Aegon IV Unworthy, Mad Aerys, Rhaegar, Viserys etc etc. There are only a scant few Targaryens who weren't complete lunatics or infertile and sterile freaks. Just looking at her cursed genetics and her family history, Dany contracting 'madness' or an equivalent mental disease is highly likely. No amount of 'mUh kind qUeEn dAnY' will change that. D&D didn't write the descent into madness properly at all, but their conclusion is right. It's more logical than any other alternative. Once a Targ, always a Targ.
It's wonderful how self aware Daenerys is, her emotional imtelligence was on full display throughout the whole book! However, thank you for clarifying the concepts of justice/injustice/vengeance and not confusing it with an absence of morality, especially given how Dany is viewed by many to be a crazy, power hungry person. By the way, nice accents!
I dont know why, but i cant get out of my head what they did to dany's character! Every now and then it just rings in my head "poor dany what have they done to you" Anyone else feel the same? :(
I've never felt so passionate for a character as I did for Daenery targaryen, I created my own web pages devoted to her and her life. After the finale I delete everything and didn't want anything to do with the books ever again. I understand what your saying, I too was in a state of depression for weeks after putting so much time and effort into danys character and this series, only to be let down by two hacks.
I feel your pain. I have to say, though, the show jumped the shark for me a couple seasons ago. I had emotionally armored myself against this last season and the finale in particular, so I think I'm dealing with it OK. Can I give advice? Read the books again. Revel yourself in their complexity and look for things the Green Hand and all the others talk about. There is still so much entertainment to be had in these characters and this world. They aren't ruined, just mistreated. Or misinterpreted, if you will. And learn from this. Fandom will disappoint you, just as real life will. We can not avoid injury altogether (nor should we try) but we can amour ourselves to minimize it. ASOIAF, Star wars, Rick & Morty. They may very well disappoint us - just as our family, friends, and lovers do. But we don't have to be devastated by it. Just remember they did their best, or at least the best they they knew how to do, and remember it wasn't personal. And try to remember the good times. And move on. Happiness will come again...
Absolutely! I will never watch S8 again. I have watched S1-7 so many times. I've even watched S1-7 with commentary only. I knew after S8E1 what D&D were going to do to Daenerys. Her dialogue seemed so uncharacteristic. Well actually all the character's dialogue were uncharacteristic. I just pretend S8 never happened. 😏😂
This is why it takes so long to debunk bs because it takes more effort to disprove bs than it takes to crap it out. You guys are the best! Love your content
@@akaymoon8252 yeah, I much prefer dany in storm of swords. I felt like there wasn't much for her in terms of material in Clash of Kings, but she wasn't the focus of that book
Love your Daenerys videos. I definitely hope GRRM doesn't subvert tropes by having The Mad King's daughter go mad because that actually isn't really subverting expectations. I would think that's what people would think of her because she is the Mad King's daughter. I also feel like that would be nihilistic and its like saying that a daughter can't escape her fathers genetics.
I don't see her going crazy like her dad. I can see her becoming more ruthless, and in the process, more tyrannical. Her belief in prophecy might act as some kind of incentive for this. The three betrayals thing, plus the Dance of Dragons 2.0 might make his paranoid, distrustful of people and tired of dealing with the consequences. I can deffo see her becoming like Rhaenyra in the end, but not Aerys.
But that the thing- Episode 5 Sapochik said Dany Mad, Emilia Clarke says she isn't mad and then Episode 6 had what she did a political decision, not madness. The fact that we have three different takes shows total failure of continuity ccertainly
@@Henbot true there were too many inconsistencies this season because if she was fine with ruling with Jon together then there was no reason for her to want him to keep it a secret. Marrying Jon would've solved the issue with him being the heir and people knowing about it. So all that drama and kings landing getting burnt was for no reason.
I mean.. What about leaving this character arc, which shows the human inside conflict, and shows probably the most powerful girl in the whole earth as a human being just like us, because she might be a dragon but she is still just a kid who has feelings.. What about forgetting the part where Dany shows us that she doesnt like to have power for herself and she is willing to wash sick people with her own hands, because she feels like she is one if them, and not the one who has the power...becaude she is humble?? What about leaving this whole Meereenense plot which shows how politic is, corrup confusing.. What about leaving this plot which show us that it doesnt matter if you have good intentions like dany, because inocent people could die because of your good feelings.. What about just destroying the whole damm saga??? --Dumb&Dumber
@@abdullahahmed551 I wouldn't be surprised if those two could put aside their differences long enough to defeat the white walkers before they deal with each other.
Though unlikely ,that'd be great, considering his experience and her natural affinity . Heck I'd love to see him mentoring her. Also if Shireen and Dany spend some time together, that'd be pretty awesome too If only it were true
I think the show missed the opportunity to give Dany a solid learning curve in Mereen. In the show, her Dragons simply Deus Ex Machina her arse out of trouble along with the Dothraki. She gets ships at the same time and goes on to Westeros. I hope that GRRM wont resort to such lazy writing, that we’ll get a piece of political, strategic and military brilliance by Dany to save the situation. Along with character development to polish her and make her ready for Westeros. Dragons and Dothraki wont achieve that.
Quaithe tells her to remember who she is. Fire and Blood. I highly doubt she'll solve the situation with diplomacy. As Daario has said, she's a conqueror, not a ruler.
You should change your channel name to the Queensguard for all the defense of Daenerys you’re doing. Thank you for making this series it means so much to me.
Why was Jons parentage used to divide and conspire against Daenerys and Jon when they both agreed to come together with their forces and defeat the Night King. We had a whole season of Development in which both J&D compromised with Dany losing viserion saving Jons life and sending her forces north to defeat the night king , while Jon bent the knee to Dany as his queen. But no Varys and Tyrion thought the peaceful solution was to compare and contrast both by creating a future line of chaos bloodshed and conflict by choosing sides and conspiring to murder Daenerys after she proved herself an honourable queen by helping to defeat the night king. If tyrion was truly loyal, why did he tell Varys first before talking to his queen. In the end the peaceful solution surely would of been to marry them both and the problem would've solved everything, why wasn't it even suggested to Dany or Jon by anybody, instead what we got was straight up betrayal. Also why was bran so hell bent on telling Jon about his parentage , bran could see the future with Drogon over kingslanding and the isolation and mental state that it left dany in and her decision to burn the city, why did he chose this outcome?. Why did Sansa chose to betray Daenerys and make her an enemy when dany just saved the north, why would sansa put Jon and her family endanger again just after they survived the apocalypse. Dany and Jon already compromised in season 7, Dany kept her end of the bargain and she risked everything to save the north, what did dany get back from Sansa, straight up betrayal ungratefulness racism and rejection from the north towards the people who just saved them. Why wasn't Aryas murder revenge spree condemned, she killed 60 or 70 members of house frey many innocence, are we supposed to support Arya in that moment or not. Were we supposed to support Danys when she killed the dothraki leaders who threaten to rape and murder her or not. What is good violence and bad violence, why should we only root for stark violence, but when it comes to Danys violence against warlords who threaten to rape and murder her, she is evil???. Why did we start seeing this ridiculous anti-war message creep in when Daenery wanted to take back her ancestral home of kingslanding, but we didn't see anything when the starks went to war against the Boltons who created a mountain of dead bodys in season 6 by taking back their ancestral home. What did we see at the battle of the bastards, a glamorisation of war and Ramsey being cruely fed to his dogs by sansa stark, is sansas cruelty a suggesting she is going to go mad also?. Why are there double standards when Danys goes to war but not the other characters and why all of a sudden has everyone started growing a conscience and speaking out against war in season 7 and 8 when war was glamorized for seven seasons previously?.
Because the show isn't really "A Game of Thrones" but instead "A Game of Starks". D&D are apparently Targaryen haters. They basically made us believe that all the Targaryens are evil and insane with all that "the gods flip a coin" shit. They don't even understand the significance of that saying. They love the Starks so they painted them as perfect and rightness. I mean, they even changed Catelyn's personality so we could sympathized with her. And Sansa becoming queen... really?! So the North "won't bow to anyone else again" except for her and her children, of course. Bravo! The people that think this was good are as dumb as D&D.
Amithest Empress reborn because....d & d are absolute idiots. Do not try to find the point in something pointless and do yourself a favor and try to leave the show behind. I know it's hard but we still have the books and I'm sure they'll be fine. Thinking about the show is just annoying and makes you depressed.
Cause war bad, Geneva convention suddenly applies in Westeros, and crazy dragon lady is crazy cause genes, duh. They got bored of GOT, plain and simple. I think they admitted publicly that the only reason they wanted to do GOT in the first place was because they wanted to adapt the Red Wedding on screen. When that was over, they slowly began losing intrest. You could see traces of that already in s4 but George was still there to help them through. However the moment he was gone, it was game over. They did what they wanted with the show creatively, and thanks to its wild success they also got enough prestige and financial gain to start looking at other projects. This is probably why they cut so much of ADWD even though there was enough material in there for 2 seasons. I think George gave them the bullet points for how the books will end, but given how much stuff they cut out, and how much they've changed the characters from their book counterparts, they simply didn't work. All of Jon and Dany's problems could have been solved with just one marriage pact. For such an honorable character who has spent years putting the needs of others over his own, and sacrificing himself repeatedly, Jon sure wasn't willing to think of the good of the realm and marry Dany cause ew, incest (which isn't even an issue in the books for aunt/nephew unions, not for Starks orTargaryens). But ofc we needed to manufacture conflict between them, so we force this Dany wouldn't want to share rule bullshit, even though in s6 she literally told Daario that she would need to marry someone to forge alliances in Westeros. In the books, her not wanting to marry would actually work given the presence of Young Griff. The war with him will definitely affect Dany and force her to become skeptical of any person claiming to be a Targaryen. Plus the three betrayals prophecy will definitely mess with her further and potentially ruin her relationship with Jon.
Bran telling Jon about his parentage only makes sense if Bran wanted Dany to snap faster and her allies turning on her sooner. In the end that was the only effect it had. That was also the only effect him not tattling on Jamie had. Jamie contributed nothing in the fight against the White Walkers. Only thing he brought was a wedge between Dany and Tyrion. Bran might have foreseen that a slower descent to chaos and destruction would turn out a lot worse.
Agree with you totally on this one. People say dany is mad because she burns people alive while watching...... yet let’s just think about that 1/ people burned by dragon fire would die really quick because of the heat (the fact that in the show dragon fire blows up ships and walls would mean death would be instant) but while she’s executing the tarlys or Varys for instance do we see her smirk or take pleasure? 2/ it is no different to ned stark executing someone by beheading or robbstark executing his own lords... But then let’s look at the “perfect” Sansa Stark who people seem to love defending and saying how great she is ... 1/ she has done nothing in every season apart from doing whatever her family’s enemies tell her to do, more Starks would have lived if Joffrey had killed her as she wouldn’t be held hostage so their would be nothing to lose 2/ she could have risked her own life for her families by actually killing Joffrey, (Arya killed someone when she was younger than Sansa) 3/ her families downfall happened because she was obsessed entirely with being The Queen, so much so she betrayed her father who she knows has always protected her and would have had a good reason for his actions, but no she trusted someone who had just gotten her innocent dire wolf killed.... that’s not the reasoning of a sound mind but Sansa supporters say “but she was a child she couldn’t know her actions and what she was doing children are naive..” Arya was younger than her and wasn’t that naive and stupid dany was also a child and wasn’t as stupid and childish as Sansa was... 4/ She betrays her family again (would bob have went different had Ramsay and Jon been aware the knights of the vale were there to fight with the Starks? Is there any chance rickon could have survived ? Ramsay made fun of their numbers because he knew there was no way they would win That would have meant he would be lord of Winterfell. 5/ we can see the total disappointment in sansas face when she does a Frey move and turns up late to the battle and sees her half brother is still alive ( bearing in mind she thinks it highly likely that the rest of her siblings are dead) she wanted to clear a path so she could be the only stark left and take the title queen in the north. Again you see that when Jon is crowned ki Nd in the north the jealousy is clear. 6/ she locks Ramsay in a cage with dogs to be eaten alive and not only does she watch as he’s eaten alive and screaming in pain but she smirks and seems to get a kick out of it (to me that’s the sign of a sick mind) she is also the same when she has littlefinger executed she enjoys watching it. (Jon doesn’t question how sick this is. Or that for someone so consumed by honour and doing everything the ned stark way that what Sansa did wasn’t in line with jons own view of right and wrong, but I guess he thought hey she’s a stark she can whatever she wants and kill people however she wants maybe we need fear to hold the people in check? It was ok because he raped her? Killed his brother? Yet when Jaime (the man who killed danys fathers) fate is being decided all of a sudden punishment for crimes honour and justice no longer matter because he didn’t kill a stark? Would have liked to have seen what happened if it had been ned he’d killed instead of just attacking him.... I doubt he would have been alive much longer than the end of that conversation lol 7/ she believes it’s too dangerous for Jon to go meet dany and that he will definitely die if he does so..... but as soon as she realises he’s leaving her in charge of the north all of a sudden it’s not so certain he will die in her mind apparently as she just accepts it and sits back down as though now the danger is gone, was she hoping he would die after publicly leaving the north in her hands if he did die nobody would be able to contest her being in charge. 8/ she endangers all her people in the north and her family again by making enemies with someone she claims is mad and a tyrant all because she doesn’t want to bend the knee... (that is clearly the sign of a sound mind “I believe this person is mad and ruthless will kill anyone in her way she has two dragons a bigger army than us has already conquered parts of Essos and has a loyal following on two continents but you know what we don’t have the power to fight her but if all my people die fighting her at least future books will say the north refused to bend the knee to the dragons this time, they will remember Sansa Stark as the queen who didn’t kneel.” ) I have no idea what she bases her opinion on dany on? I mean dany postpones her war for the throne to take her army and dragons north to fight in a war that could have been fought after the throne was won and Cersei defeated... the night king would still be on the other side of the wall if not for the stupid plan to parlay with Cersei for whatever reason instead of wiping her out... 9/ dany loses most of her army a dragon one of her loyal advisors and friend to help the north ( coz let’s face if she hadn’t went north and had won the throne she could still have met the night king with the same numbers if not more coz she would have had the armies of 6 kingdoms on her side plus her own men and dragons and could have sent for extra from Essos yet Sansa is still hell bent on being danys enemy... 10/ even after dany is dead Sansa still hates her and claims she was a tyrant that had to die because she murdered innocents........ let’s see Arya murdered a whole house lots of whom probably had nothing to do with the red wedding baked people into pies (again all the remaining Starks at the end of the show seem to show traits of madness) but doesn’t face any repercussions We see dany weild a sword to help Jorah and to try and keep each other safe even though she’s never wielded one before yet the “good queen Sansa” has the only weapon in the crypts that can kill the wights and the selfish bitch hides behind a tomb while the people that she apparently cares so much about are being murdered all she thinks about is herself and being queen . Sorry for the massive rant but it really annoys me how the fans seem to excuse every action made by the Starks no matter how ruthless or insane it might seem as necessary but yet dany or another character does the same thing and instantly they are mad. Don’t get me started on Jon he’s seen and heard what Arya and Sansa are capable of what they’ve done and that Sansa has broken her vow to him and betrayed him, that Tyrion is a a traitor and one conversation convinced him to turn from “she’s everyone’s queen now” everyone should follow her to ok I’m gonna stab her in the heart coz my bitch sister that hates me may be in danger coz she’s too stupid to bend the knee. She counts on other men protecting her so she can walk out on top of their bodies to a throne she thought after dany died she would get the iron throne during that vote u could see it then she turns on her brother “he can’t father children though and then well if he’s gonna be king then I’m gonna be queen of something screw Jon 🤣🤣🤣 what a cow.
Her exploits in it or themselves are quite impressive, but it is twice so concidering that she is at this point only a teenage girl... I don't think D&D never quite gasped how impressive this exploits are... Not only were her emocional and psicological strengths were ignored in order to make a quick storyline in these seasons... I think even Stannis would have recogniced her wits...
@@samhobbs9116 not gonna lie, either scenario would be fucking awesome. An aliance between Dany and Stan would be pure awesome, but a battle between them would be epic... Oh man, I kinda want both now...
I really appreciate this series. I was sorely disappointed with the show's hack job at Dany's character. She is a great and complex character. Very wise and mature beyond her years. If she was supposed to go mad and murderous in the end, via George's books, at least give the character respect on doing it right. What the show did, was not it.
Why almost all of the artists draw Dany with her eyebrow color different than her hair color? Oh yeah, because most artists draw book characters using literally the same faces of the actors. I don't like that...
The problem with Meereen is that the freedmen and the Ghiscari are not Daenerys' people. Aegon the Conquerer had the advantage that his family already lived off the coast of Westeros for centuries and he himself studied the continent in detail and made alliances in secret years in advance of his conquest. Daenerys went in blind, and this is foreshadowing her problems in Westeros. George has already pointed out that the Westerosi peasants are not that different from slaves. Dany is also not the first Targaryen to try to abolish feudalism.
I don't see Danny doing something as "easy" as burning a whole city. She has the strategy of outwitting her enemy plus rubbing salt in their wounds. She likes to think outside the box.
It’s not just Dany’s character they butchered but also the way D&D butchered the show. It would be great to hear this inner monologue not just from Dany but all the characters for their reflection. If anything Dany is sooner to go mad from guilt for her actions of brutality.
Varys's appraisal of Dany in Season 5 and Book 5 pretty much sums up A Storm of Swords "Stronger than Tommen, gentler than Stannis"... or Tywin, whose death Varys was complicit in. Daenerys shows far more remorse in her inner monologue and in her actions after her eye-for-an-eye justice. Hard to say whether Stannis or Tywin would be as remorseful since they aren't POV characters. Stannis would see such action as a function of law, per his justification for treason being punishable by death: "It has always been so. I am not . . . I am not a cruel man, Ser Davos... It is law. Law, Davos. Not cruelty." Tywin would consider the counterpoints, but still stand by his actions: "'Explain to me why it is more noble to kill ten thousand men in battle than a dozen at dinner.' When Tyrion had no reply to that, his father continued. 'The price was cheap by any measure. '"
Seriously, how many teenage girls, at any point in history, would have the maturity and wisdom to see, hear, and accept criticism for past actions and then have the ownership to take responsibility for her actions and not lay blame somewhere else? Sure she does some things out of anger in the heat of the moment, what person doesn’t? But she LEARNS! This is the girl that annihilates an entire city because she won too easily? ALL of her victories have been ‘easy’! Can we all just forget the show ever existed? D&D did not come up with these characters. They do not know them in every way like George does. He is their father, and he loves every single one! Except maybe the mountain and Ramsey, but he still created them! Only HE knows what their final story will be. Sorry for the rant!!
What's also funny is how the show has Dany have that conversation with Daario in bed. They were talking about the fighting pits being reopened and Daario mentions how he thinks the she round up all the masters and have them executed. Dany replies that she is "not a butcher." The show writes really had no idea what they were doing with her character.
Yay. Wonder how many parts Dance will be divided into. The Dany stuff in that book is super dense and full of really tough choices for her. We need a deep reading on the Quaithe stuff at the end of that book. That lady seems like the biggest threat to Dany's future sanity.
Why? I never got “madness” out of the polite and intellectual conversations he had in the book. He got mad at Tyrion but that was our only time seeing him not completely composed and it was because Tyrion lied and cheated during their game. It was a lesson but Aegon doesn’t know Tyrion and it was quite an insult coming from an ugly and rude dwarf named “yollo” rather than if he had presented himself a Lannister so I kinda see where he was coming from, he’s still a kid and the lesson didn’t sink in until after their game
As Long as GRRM doesnt turn Mad Queen Cersei into an angel, it will be fine. If Dumb and Dumber had kept Missandei until the penultimate episode, it might have worked
Another great one on Dany's "madness." The only way I could see this going in the books is if there is collateral damage that is perceived as Dany going crazy. And part of the bittersweet ending would be that people see Dany in a light that is opposite to her true self.
Yes she is conflicted. But justifying her righteous anger now may play out just like in the show, that she builds and builds in this mindset that she is doing what must be done. Desensitized if you will. Depending on what future actions she thinks she 'has to' take, repeatedly and increasingly 'just', we may still end up with her burning kings landing.
If anyone has ever read both the abridged and unabridged versions of Stephen King's novel, The Stand I'm afraid it's the same story with extra fluff for die-hards🤔
For the people that say "some of the slavers were against the crucifixion": a) that's a show thing and what makes you think that was true? b) they were still slavers, they owned human beings as property. There is no such thing as "good slavers". c) In the books it was the people that chose the slavers to be crucified. Do you really think they would've chosen "good slavers"??? d) if you would stand by while children being crucified as sport, you are not a good person. e) if everyone were like you, slavery in our world would've never been abolished. Shame on you. Ned beheaded a man for deserting the Night's Watch and that was justice. But punishing slavers for cruficying children is wrong???
Reading that quote at the end @27:19 isn't it interesting that out of all the characters GRR Martin chose to compare Daenerys to in Lord of the Rings he chose Faramir, a good guy, better than his brother (Sean Bean in the movie ironically) as he is confronted by the same temptation as his brother (the ring) yet Faramir succeeds where Boromir failed...
Curiously, someone who also is not the rightful heir to the throne. In the show, Dany treated Jon's claim as a threat to her. Do you think in the books she will cede the throne to Aegon/Jon (who ever is the actual heir) like Faramir did to Aragorn? That would be rather magnanimous of her, and more in line with the girl holding the hands of her dying subjects.
I know this isn't really the point of this video, but this is a great recap. You should consider doing a similar series with other characters - Brienne, Theon and Davos - when WoW is a little closer on the horizon
I keep wondering if Princess Rhaenya is a foreshadowing of Danny’s future. That she will suffer too manny betrayals and have a Lady Misery poisoning her thoughts. Also if there is an ‘appRent’ male heir to challenge her claim to the throne- how will she respond. This applies to Aegon rather than Jon’s
I'm curious if you guys have done or are planning to do a video about Quaithe? You don't seem to trust her but Dany does. Not to get ahead of ourselves, but I wonder if Quite could be like another Varys who pushed the mad king over the edge. Most of what we know about Arys's "madness" leading up to Duskendale was written by the people who betrayed him and we know he was tortured in Duskendale, so it's possible there was a time when he was like Dany, a young ruler making a lot of mistakes. Quaithe's basic method is one of mistrusting everyone and calling her to embrace her heritage of fire and blood.
Thank you for this series. You are saving the part of my soul that grew to respect ,trust and love Daenerys for the balanced leader she became. Always I try to understand her as a leader of her time. In conclusion I maintain she is a far superior leader then many modern leaders. Her ending was abysmal but this is only a reflection of speed over substance.
You all better serve Azor Ahai! I don’t know why anyone listens to anyone else lol. I’m so confident in your analysis of the entire direction of the books that the show is pretty laughable to me now. Only one I’m still not convinced of is Val because I feel like if she’s Jon’s twin that’s fine but what is her role overall? She’d be a better queen of the north I think than Sansa. she’s an actual northerner and it really bothers me that someone who got her dire wolf killed and was more Tully than Stark could potentially inherit the northern seat. If it doesn’t belong to Jon it belongs to Val. Another reason why I think the show combines at least two character arcs in some of our major characters and therefore they can pass off s8 as being as close to the ending of the books as they could get.
Jorah being so oblivious that Barristan was able to live and work with him for months without ever realizing it has always struck me as hilariously bad. I guessed who he was from when he showed up to Dany. But I hadbto step back and examine what I know versus what Jorah would know...
That honestly makes Arthur Dayne, Gerald Hightower and Oswald Whent being alive seem more plausible, famous people are not known by face in this world; add a few years of age and facial hair and almost anyone can be unreconizable! Not to even mention glamours, skinchanging and Faceless Man, every secret identity is possible.
Dany i dont like but i do like how she has a lot of nice parrales to cercie and rob where she takes super high dangrous moves to get gains where future trouble may rise from it and then with rob who killed the karstark guy and felt it was needed to happen so i at least like how the book went better as the show was a mess. I don't think she is crazy but rather will lead to a eye for an eye way as war is going on and dany is gone. I
Great video! I still suspect that Daenerys will barbecue Volantis, but it will be justified. They've basically started a world war in Mereen by the time Drogon flew away with Dany. What is your take on why Volantis is so horrible, by the way?
The slaves in Volantis are ready to rise up to support Daenerys. I think it was Tyrion who was told of this when he was there before Jorah captured him. So Volantis could fall pretty easily from within.
Who will the two men (the 2nd and 3rd "Heads of the Dragons", and yes, I know they don't *have* to be men) be? Tyrion and Jon are obviously the prime candidates right now, though is there anyone else that anyone can think of that would be a good fit? F/Aegon? .....Stannis? ....Sweet Robin? .....Craster?
16:48 I think Ned would have sent them to the Night's Watch honestly. He'd never had to kill that many people before (besides in battle but that's different). Dany, however, couldn't have sent them anywhere, certainly not the the Night's Watch which no one there understands or will submit to. So yeah, what else was there to do really, that would stop them going to another city and killing more children and slaves.
Oh make no mistake, she will 'go mad' alright. It'll just be handled better in the books. What else do you expect from a family that committed acts of "Sweet Home Alabama" for over 300 years and multiple generations? Is it a surprise that the Targaryens had very few (less than 6) rulers who weren't complete nutjobs or sterile? George is making a point by comparing the Targs to the Spanish Habsburgs and Ptolemaic Egyptians. Both historical royal lines were doomed to failure since their rulers were abominations born against the natural order of mammalian reproduction. Inbreeding in dogs and other farm animals for multiple generations results in malformed specimen. Same thing with humans. In spite of muh bLoOd oF tHe dRaGoN or kind-hearted Daenerys, her ruin due to either madness or infertility is highly likely, if not certain. Doesn't take from the fact she's a well written character, though.
Love love loving this @the order of the greenhand! Your in depth and psychological study of her actions thoughts and feelings is brilliant. Cannot wait for the next.
Personally I'm of the mindset is that of, yes she is/will be mad. Either she already is mad and the crazy stuff around is chance or fate, or she is tainted by other powers, and considering George's love of Lovecraft, sorry Dany, you fucked, Chaos has you or is fattening you up. Though yeah I feel for the poor captains, imagine someone using a Rolls Royce as a road block for against a Ford pickup. And that's not Justice, that is vengeance; Justice seeks to restore, vengeance seeks balance the scales, revenge seeks to teach
She convinced herself it was just, though it made her feel like an avenging dragon. So even though it was definitely vengeance, she convinces herself it was just. It wasn’t just because she allowed the Mereenese to pick who died instead of finding a better way to decide.
When pointing to this chapter about potentates future madness, it’s not about the action itself, but about the fact that she can justify doing bad things if she has a reason. Here it’s a good reason, but it might not be so in the future. Besides, she gave them no trial whatsoever. Rule like that in Westeros, and you’re gonna piss some people off
Dany Questioning if she did the Right thing shows she is Human if I was in Her Shoes I must Admit I more Likely do something worse than crucified a bunch of Children killers don’t know what that says about me as Human.
According to D&D you're mad. You will probably massacre a million people in a couple of weeks and if you're a woman, that period of time will be shortened to a few days.
"I'm guessing alot of you still disagree that what Dani did wasn't justice." Nope, I agree with your entire train of thought. I don't think justice and vengeance have to be mutually exclusive. I mean justice is a mild form of vengeance and there are still situations today where it is an eye for an eye of sorts. For example a murderer being sentenced to death or life in prison which is still an end to your life of sorts. Also, I really like your argument about Ned Stark. Nobody would've batted an eye at putting 162 child killers to death. He probably would've just executed them and been done with it but we have to remember she is still pretty young along with no education or preparation to command an army and run a city. I don't know about you guys but things at 16 or 17 years old was pretty cut and dry then because you don't know enough of the world to not think that way. If I was in her shoes at that age I'd have probably command the 162 slavers be crucified as well. What's good for the goose is good for the gander but as an adult I probably would've thought better of it.
Honestly while reading this chapter I thought yes you show them what they did was fucked up. In my family we have a saying we use when someone is told hey don't do that because of x y and z negative outcome and the outcome happens and we respond "that's what you get" and that's how I felt reading this chapter. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
@The Order of the Green Hand- late to the party- the books are so better.You can see how Arstan was unnoticable. yes, jaime too. I do think that Dany would go mad if S7 & S8 were full 12 ep seasons.- it would have build up necessary to be justifiable. And not flipping on in one ep. another D&D exit strategy. So, when GRRM finishes the books- Dany will go nuts but in the right way. Believable. Word up.
My suspicion is that the books will continue the story beyond what we saw in the series finale. All the main characters seem to be going places...and people don't necessarily stay dead in Westeros. Seems to me that GRRM might be holding something in reserve... Well, _I_ would have, if I was GRRM.
I greatly appreciate these series of videos, I think they clearly set forth a far more accurate accounting of Daenery's story. My biggest problem I have & bothers me the most is my contention that the burning of Kings landing is foreshadowed by Jamie as well as Danny's fate as the wildfire is the stories chekhov's gun. By Danny attacking the Red Keep and nothing else I always saw this as the way the wildfire would unintentionally be ignited by Danny's dragon's as a trap by Qyburn under direct orders from Cersei. Thereby letting the audience know it wasn't Daenerys fault but all the characters believing her guilty so a tragedy all the same. Because Daenerys Targaryen was innocent.
In my trauma from the show as Sam and the other Maesters, writing the Song of Ice & Fire history. So let's blame Dickon! Took forever to listen to the books because of the Stone Heart. I need more Rogue Princess!
I still say that Dany should go mad after being shot off of Drogon, captured by Euron, tortured, and forced to drink way too much shade of the evening. She should escape and kill Euron in a brutal fashion, but not stop there. It might be nice if Jon reveals his identity and claims the crown only because her advisers insist that she is as good as dead and that he army needs a new figurehead to lead them in avenging her. He would be loyal to her, but she wold view it as an unforgivable betrayal.
GRRM: War is wrong Daenerys: I'll make war ASOIAF fandom: Daenerys is a good person GRRM: My books aren't some kind of fairy tale where all plans go as planned and doing the right thing is easy ASOIAF fandom: Daenerys is surely going to conquer Westeros and kill every cruel person but the likelable ones and marry Jon snow who happens to be a secret prince and rule together for the rest of their days
This. I have to sigh at some of the things that were said in this video as GRRM is a peace-loving hippie (the man was a conscientious objector to Vietnam) in origins who acknowledges his views aren't popular, but still beats his anti-war drum nevertheless (that's the whole point of The Armageddon Rag after all). Characters who justify going to war, and further go so far as to commit war crimes, even when they do so with good intentions or in the name of "Justice", never end up in good positions afterwards in his stories. This analysis is selling the fairytale the fandom wants to hear, which I imagine must be good for views... but it's grossly missing the point. Sure, she questions herself, that's also George's MO--he thinks the only story worth telling is the idea of the human heart in conflict with itself. And how best to do that with Dany's character is to put the question of what she's willing to do in order to be Queen of Westeros and sit the Iron Throne. She wants the throne, but she also wants the love of the common people of Westeros like she got in Essos--but she can't have both (not with that foreign army she brings with her in her wake that paints her rather easily as a foreign conqueror). That's a George RR Martin type of conflict, the human heart in conflict with itself, and the best way to do that with Dany's character is to put her desire to be Queen in conflict with her love of the common people.
@@nosai10 Did you read the books at all? I neither think Daenerys will get mad but i can't see the books trying to justifice her war after the speech of that septon who fought in the war of the nine penny kings which was probably one of the lest harmfull for westeros since Jaehaerys repelled an invasion without losing a single man. I know she wanted to free the slaves but in real world when slavery was banned was by diplomacy not by killing people and it's absolutely worst in the case of westeros since her only reason to invade Westeros is her mad father being king before she was even born.
@@ivanmp3e48 Apart from how slavery is banned in other parts of their world and is punishable by death. Slavery was eventually banned in the real world hundreds of years after the medieval period also. And I don't see why Daenerys bringing war has to mean she kills random innocents for no reason.
Dany in the books isn’t perfect, but she learns and grows from her experiences. In the the show it’s almost as if she regresses, she relies on others to make poor decisions for her and she is not emotionally developed. Not the character George wrote! Thanks for spelling that out more clearly. Great vids guys!!
Inspite of how 'kind hearted' she may be, the possibility is very high that she will go as mad as Aerys if not worse? And why is that? Cause multiple generations of inbreeding will increase the likelihood of producing defective freakshow offspring that tend to miss a couple marbles or chromosomes.
And keep in mind. The Targaryens are infamous for multiple generations of inbreeding, and have produced a lot of mad, paranoid, and physically deformed offspring that grew up to be Kings and Queens who burned the world down. Case(s) in point: Maegor (later in his reign), Rhaenyra, Aegon II, Baelor the Blessed, Aegon IV Unworthy, Mad Aerys, Rhaegar, Viserys etc etc. There are only a scant few Targaryens who weren't complete lunatics or infertile and sterile freaks.
Just looking at her cursed genetics and her family history, Dany contracting 'madness' or an equivalent mental disease is highly likely. No amount of 'mUh kind qUeEn dAnY' will change that. D&D didn't write the descent into madness properly at all, but their conclusion is right. It's more logical than any other alternative. Once a Targ, always a Targ.
It's wonderful how self aware Daenerys is, her emotional imtelligence was on full display throughout the whole book!
However, thank you for clarifying the concepts of justice/injustice/vengeance and not confusing it with an absence of morality, especially given how Dany is viewed by many to be a crazy, power hungry person.
By the way, nice accents!
I dont know why, but i cant get out of my head what they did to dany's character! Every now and then it just rings in my head "poor dany what have they done to you" Anyone else feel the same? :(
@@djancak Wow,its been really hard for you. What did doctor say ?
I've never felt so passionate for a character as I did for Daenery targaryen, I created my own web pages devoted to her and her life. After the finale I delete everything and didn't want anything to do with the books ever again. I understand what your saying, I too was in a state of depression for weeks after putting so much time and effort into danys character and this series, only to be let down by two hacks.
I feel your pain. I have to say, though, the show jumped the shark for me a couple seasons ago. I had emotionally armored myself against this last season and the finale in particular, so I think I'm dealing with it OK. Can I give advice?
Read the books again. Revel yourself in their complexity and look for things the Green Hand and all the others talk about. There is still so much entertainment to be had in these characters and this world. They aren't ruined, just mistreated. Or misinterpreted, if you will.
And learn from this. Fandom will disappoint you, just as real life will. We can not avoid injury altogether (nor should we try) but we can amour ourselves to minimize it. ASOIAF, Star wars, Rick & Morty. They may very well disappoint us - just as our family, friends, and lovers do. But we don't have to be devastated by it. Just remember they did their best, or at least the best they they knew how to do, and remember it wasn't personal. And try to remember the good times. And move on. Happiness will come again...
You’re not alone.
Absolutely! I will never watch S8 again. I have watched S1-7 so many times. I've even watched S1-7 with commentary only. I knew after S8E1 what D&D were going to do to Daenerys. Her dialogue seemed so uncharacteristic. Well actually all the character's dialogue were uncharacteristic. I just pretend S8 never happened. 😏😂
This is why it takes so long to debunk bs because it takes more effort to disprove bs than it takes to crap it out. You guys are the best! Love your content
So true
it's the shithose effect- takes seconds to make an incredible mess, takes hours to clean it up
@@akaymoon8252 yeah, I much prefer dany in storm of swords. I felt like there wasn't much for her in terms of material in Clash of Kings, but she wasn't the focus of that book
Well said!
Cybele M borrow away my friend I got it from the efap tearing bob chipmans asinine in defense of plot holes
I was going to the dreamland, it's middle of the night in India, but I can postpone my sleep for 30min, as you don't hangup on Green Hand.
Love your Daenerys videos. I definitely hope GRRM doesn't subvert tropes by having The Mad King's daughter go mad because that actually isn't really subverting expectations. I would think that's what people would think of her because she is the Mad King's daughter. I also feel like that would be nihilistic and its like saying that a daughter can't escape her fathers genetics.
Sydni Taylor I think it's far more likely for Jon to go mad or side with the Night King. The second is definitely foreshadowed in the books.
I don't see her going crazy like her dad. I can see her becoming more ruthless, and in the process, more tyrannical. Her belief in prophecy might act as some kind of incentive for this. The three betrayals thing, plus the Dance of Dragons 2.0 might make his paranoid, distrustful of people and tired of dealing with the consequences. I can deffo see her becoming like Rhaenyra in the end, but not Aerys.
But that the thing- Episode 5 Sapochik said Dany Mad, Emilia Clarke says she isn't mad and then Episode 6 had what she did a political decision, not madness. The fact that we have three different takes shows total failure of continuity ccertainly
@@TheaTheGenius I hope she doesn't go cray.
@@Henbot true there were too many inconsistencies this season because if she was fine with ruling with Jon together then there was no reason for her to want him to keep it a secret. Marrying Jon would've solved the issue with him being the heir and people knowing about it. So all that drama and kings landing getting burnt was for no reason.
I mean..
What about leaving this character arc, which shows the human inside conflict, and shows probably the most powerful girl in the whole earth as a human being just like us, because she might be a dragon but she is still just a kid who has feelings..
What about forgetting the part where Dany shows us that she doesnt like to have power for herself and she is willing to wash sick people with her own hands, because she feels like she is one if them, and not the one who has the power...becaude she is humble??
What about leaving this whole Meereenense plot which shows how politic is, corrup confusing..
What about leaving this plot which show us that it doesnt matter if you have good intentions like dany, because inocent people could die because of your good feelings..
What about just destroying the whole damm saga???
--Dumb&Dumber
I' d love to see Stannis and Dany meet and strategise together. They'd be unstoppable
Far better than Tyrion and Jon Snow
Assuming they didn’t kill each other first...lol
@@davidnorris1064 True
@@abdullahahmed551
I wouldn't be surprised if those two could put aside their differences long enough to defeat the white walkers before they deal with each other.
Though unlikely ,that'd be great, considering his experience and her natural affinity . Heck I'd love to see him mentoring her. Also if Shireen and Dany spend some time together, that'd be pretty awesome too
If only it were true
I think the show missed the opportunity to give Dany a solid learning curve in Mereen.
In the show, her Dragons simply Deus Ex Machina her arse out of trouble along with the Dothraki. She gets ships at the same time and goes on to Westeros.
I hope that GRRM wont resort to such lazy writing, that we’ll get a piece of political, strategic and military brilliance by Dany to save the situation.
Along with character development to polish her and make her ready for Westeros.
Dragons and Dothraki wont achieve that.
Not to mention a dope scene of a boat and cock ramming into the gates of Meereen
Quaithe tells her to remember who she is. Fire and Blood. I highly doubt she'll solve the situation with diplomacy. As Daario has said, she's a conqueror, not a ruler.
You should change your channel name to the Queensguard for all the defense of Daenerys you’re doing. Thank you for making this series it means so much to me.
Why was Jons parentage used to divide and conspire against Daenerys and Jon when they both agreed to come together with their forces and defeat the Night King. We had a whole season of Development in which both J&D compromised with Dany losing viserion saving Jons life and sending her forces north to defeat the night king , while Jon bent the knee to Dany as his queen. But no Varys and Tyrion thought the peaceful solution was to compare and contrast both by creating a future line of chaos bloodshed and conflict by choosing sides and conspiring to murder Daenerys after she proved herself an honourable queen by helping to defeat the night king. If tyrion was truly loyal, why did he tell Varys first before talking to his queen. In the end the peaceful solution surely would of been to marry them both and the problem would've solved everything, why wasn't it even suggested to Dany or Jon by anybody, instead what we got was straight up betrayal. Also why was bran so hell bent on telling Jon about his parentage , bran could see the future with Drogon over kingslanding and the isolation and mental state that it left dany in and her decision to burn the city, why did he chose this outcome?. Why did Sansa chose to betray Daenerys and make her an enemy when dany just saved the north, why would sansa put Jon and her family endanger again just after they survived the apocalypse. Dany and Jon already compromised in season 7, Dany kept her end of the bargain and she risked everything to save the north, what did dany get back from Sansa, straight up betrayal ungratefulness racism and rejection from the north towards the people who just saved them. Why wasn't Aryas murder revenge spree condemned, she killed 60 or 70 members of house frey many innocence, are we supposed to support Arya in that moment or not. Were we supposed to support Danys when she killed the dothraki leaders who threaten to rape and murder her or not. What is good violence and bad violence, why should we only root for stark violence, but when it comes to Danys violence against warlords who threaten to rape and murder her, she is evil???. Why did we start seeing this ridiculous anti-war message creep in when Daenery wanted to take back her ancestral home of kingslanding, but we didn't see anything when the starks went to war against the Boltons who created a mountain of dead bodys in season 6 by taking back their ancestral home. What did we see at the battle of the bastards, a glamorisation of war and Ramsey being cruely fed to his dogs by sansa stark, is sansas cruelty a suggesting she is going to go mad also?. Why are there double standards when Danys goes to war but not the other characters and why all of a sudden has everyone started growing a conscience and speaking out against war in season 7 and 8 when war was glamorized for seven seasons previously?.
Because the show isn't really "A Game of Thrones" but instead "A Game of Starks".
D&D are apparently Targaryen haters. They basically made us believe that all the Targaryens are evil and insane with all that "the gods flip a coin" shit. They don't even understand the significance of that saying.
They love the Starks so they painted them as perfect and rightness. I mean, they even changed Catelyn's personality so we could sympathized with her. And Sansa becoming queen... really?! So the North "won't bow to anyone else again" except for her and her children, of course. Bravo!
The people that think this was good are as dumb as D&D.
Amithest Empress reborn
because....d & d are absolute idiots. Do not try to find the point in something pointless and do yourself a favor and try to leave the show behind. I know it's hard but we still have the books and I'm sure they'll be fine. Thinking about the show is just annoying and makes you depressed.
Cause war bad, Geneva convention suddenly applies in Westeros, and crazy dragon lady is crazy cause genes, duh. They got bored of GOT, plain and simple. I think they admitted publicly that the only reason they wanted to do GOT in the first place was because they wanted to adapt the Red Wedding on screen. When that was over, they slowly began losing intrest. You could see traces of that already in s4 but George was still there to help them through. However the moment he was gone, it was game over. They did what they wanted with the show creatively, and thanks to its wild success they also got enough prestige and financial gain to start looking at other projects. This is probably why they cut so much of ADWD even though there was enough material in there for 2 seasons.
I think George gave them the bullet points for how the books will end, but given how much stuff they cut out, and how much they've changed the characters from their book counterparts, they simply didn't work. All of Jon and Dany's problems could have been solved with just one marriage pact. For such an honorable character who has spent years putting the needs of others over his own, and sacrificing himself repeatedly, Jon sure wasn't willing to think of the good of the realm and marry Dany cause ew, incest (which isn't even an issue in the books for aunt/nephew unions, not for Starks orTargaryens). But ofc we needed to manufacture conflict between them, so we force this Dany wouldn't want to share rule bullshit, even though in s6 she literally told Daario that she would need to marry someone to forge alliances in Westeros.
In the books, her not wanting to marry would actually work given the presence of Young Griff. The war with him will definitely affect Dany and force her to become skeptical of any person claiming to be a Targaryen. Plus the three betrayals prophecy will definitely mess with her further and potentially ruin her relationship with Jon.
Bran telling Jon about his parentage only makes sense if Bran wanted Dany to snap faster and her allies turning on her sooner. In the end that was the only effect it had. That was also the only effect him not tattling on Jamie had. Jamie contributed nothing in the fight against the White Walkers. Only thing he brought was a wedge between Dany and Tyrion. Bran might have foreseen that a slower descent to chaos and destruction would turn out a lot worse.
Agree with you totally on this one. People say dany is mad because she burns people alive while watching...... yet let’s just think about that
1/ people burned by dragon fire would die really quick because of the heat (the fact that in the show dragon fire blows up ships and walls would mean death would be instant) but while she’s executing the tarlys or Varys for instance do we see her smirk or take pleasure?
2/ it is no different to ned stark executing someone by beheading or robbstark executing his own lords...
But then let’s look at the “perfect” Sansa Stark who people seem to love defending and saying how great she is ...
1/ she has done nothing in every season apart from doing whatever her family’s enemies tell her to do, more Starks would have lived if Joffrey had killed her as she wouldn’t be held hostage so their would be nothing to lose
2/ she could have risked her own life for her families by actually killing Joffrey, (Arya killed someone when she was younger than Sansa)
3/ her families downfall happened because she was obsessed entirely with being The Queen, so much so she betrayed her father who she knows has always protected her and would have had a good reason for his actions, but no she trusted someone who had just gotten her innocent dire wolf killed.... that’s not the reasoning of a sound mind but Sansa supporters say “but she was a child she couldn’t know her actions and what she was doing children are naive..” Arya was younger than her and wasn’t that naive and stupid dany was also a child and wasn’t as stupid and childish as Sansa was...
4/ She betrays her family again (would bob have went different had Ramsay and Jon been aware the knights of the vale were there to fight with the Starks? Is there any chance rickon could have survived ? Ramsay made fun of their numbers because he knew there was no way they would win That would have meant he would be lord of Winterfell.
5/ we can see the total disappointment in sansas face when she does a Frey move and turns up late to the battle and sees her half brother is still alive ( bearing in mind she thinks it highly likely that the rest of her siblings are dead) she wanted to clear a path so she could be the only stark left and take the title queen in the north. Again you see that when Jon is crowned ki Nd in the north the jealousy is clear.
6/ she locks Ramsay in a cage with dogs to be eaten alive and not only does she watch as he’s eaten alive and screaming in pain but she smirks and seems to get a kick out of it (to me that’s the sign of a sick mind) she is also the same when she has littlefinger executed she enjoys watching it. (Jon doesn’t question how sick this is. Or that for someone so consumed by honour and doing everything the ned stark way that what Sansa did wasn’t in line with jons own view of right and wrong, but I guess he thought hey she’s a stark she can whatever she wants and kill people however she wants maybe we need fear to hold the people in check? It was ok because he raped her? Killed his brother? Yet when Jaime (the man who killed danys fathers) fate is being decided all of a sudden punishment for crimes honour and justice no longer matter because he didn’t kill a stark? Would have liked to have seen what happened if it had been ned he’d killed instead of just attacking him.... I doubt he would have been alive much longer than the end of that conversation lol
7/ she believes it’s too dangerous for Jon to go meet dany and that he will definitely die if he does so..... but as soon as she realises he’s leaving her in charge of the north all of a sudden it’s not so certain he will die in her mind apparently as she just accepts it and sits back down as though now the danger is gone, was she hoping he would die after publicly leaving the north in her hands if he did die nobody would be able to contest her being in charge.
8/ she endangers all her people in the north and her family again by making enemies with someone she claims is mad and a tyrant all because she doesn’t want to bend the knee... (that is clearly the sign of a sound mind “I believe this person is mad and ruthless will kill anyone in her way she has two dragons a bigger army than us has already conquered parts of Essos and has a loyal following on two continents but you know what we don’t have the power to fight her but if all my people die fighting her at least future books will say the north refused to bend the knee to the dragons this time, they will remember Sansa Stark as the queen who didn’t kneel.” ) I have no idea what she bases her opinion on dany on? I mean dany postpones her war for the throne to take her army and dragons north to fight in a war that could have been fought after the throne was won and Cersei defeated... the night king would still be on the other side of the wall if not for the stupid plan to parlay with Cersei for whatever reason instead of wiping her out...
9/ dany loses most of her army a dragon one of her loyal advisors and friend to help the north ( coz let’s face if she hadn’t went north and had won the throne she could still have met the night king with the same numbers if not more coz she would have had the armies of 6 kingdoms on her side plus her own men and dragons and could have sent for extra from Essos yet Sansa is still hell bent on being danys enemy...
10/ even after dany is dead Sansa still hates her and claims she was a tyrant that had to die because she murdered innocents........ let’s see Arya murdered a whole house lots of whom probably had nothing to do with the red wedding baked people into pies (again all the remaining Starks at the end of the show seem to show traits of madness) but doesn’t face any repercussions
We see dany weild a sword to help Jorah and to try and keep each other safe even though she’s never wielded one before yet the “good queen Sansa” has the only weapon in the crypts that can kill the wights and the selfish bitch hides behind a tomb while the people that she apparently cares so much about are being murdered all she thinks about is herself and being queen .
Sorry for the massive rant but it really annoys me how the fans seem to excuse every action made by the Starks no matter how ruthless or insane it might seem as necessary but yet dany or another character does the same thing and instantly they are mad.
Don’t get me started on Jon he’s seen and heard what Arya and Sansa are capable of what they’ve done and that Sansa has broken her vow to him and betrayed him, that Tyrion is a a traitor and one conversation convinced him to turn from “she’s everyone’s queen now” everyone should follow her to ok I’m gonna stab her in the heart coz my bitch sister that hates me may be in danger coz she’s too stupid to bend the knee. She counts on other men protecting her so she can walk out on top of their bodies to a throne she thought after dany died she would get the iron throne during that vote u could see it then she turns on her brother “he can’t father children though and then well if he’s gonna be king then I’m gonna be queen of something screw Jon 🤣🤣🤣 what a cow.
Her exploits in it or themselves are quite impressive, but it is twice so concidering that she is at this point only a teenage girl...
I don't think D&D never quite gasped how impressive this exploits are... Not only were her emocional and psicological strengths were ignored in order to make a quick storyline in these seasons...
I think even Stannis would have recogniced her wits...
That would actually have been a really interesting interaction. Also Stannis lives in her house sooo battle or alliance?
@@samhobbs9116 not gonna lie, either scenario would be fucking awesome.
An aliance between Dany and Stan would be pure awesome, but a battle between them would be epic... Oh man, I kinda want both now...
I really appreciate this series. I was sorely disappointed with the show's hack job at Dany's character. She is a great and complex character. Very wise and mature beyond her years. If she was supposed to go mad and murderous in the end, via George's books, at least give the character respect on doing it right. What the show did, was not it.
Ser Barristan Selmy was even a bigger badass in books. Too bad the show killed him
I raged at his death. I should have quit watching then and there like I wanted to.
Why almost all of the artists draw Dany with her eyebrow color different than her hair color?
Oh yeah, because most artists draw book characters using literally the same faces of the actors.
I don't like that...
Yeah, I agree. I cringe seeing Ian Glen when I'm thinking of book Jorah. Around 22:00 ish they had accurate book Jorah.
Skwisgaar Skwigelf i think because of how popular the show became, and Emilia has such an iconic look as Daenerys.
4 better or worse Emilia will always be the face of Daenerys Targaryen.
That last quote from GRRM was so good! Interesting to think of GRRM comparing Dany to Faramir
The problem with Meereen is that the freedmen and the Ghiscari are not Daenerys' people. Aegon the Conquerer had the advantage that his family already lived off the coast of Westeros for centuries and he himself studied the continent in detail and made alliances in secret years in advance of his conquest. Daenerys went in blind, and this is foreshadowing her problems in Westeros. George has already pointed out that the Westerosi peasants are not that different from slaves. Dany is also not the first Targaryen to try to abolish feudalism.
I don't see Danny doing something as "easy" as burning a whole city. She has the strategy of outwitting her enemy plus rubbing salt in their wounds. She likes to think outside the box.
*Scrambles to hit the like button*
It’s not just Dany’s character they butchered but also the way D&D butchered the show. It would be great to hear this inner monologue not just from Dany but all the characters for their reflection. If anything Dany is sooner to go mad from guilt for her actions of brutality.
Butchering Danys character is the main reason why the show got butchered
Varys's appraisal of Dany in Season 5 and Book 5 pretty much sums up A Storm of Swords "Stronger than Tommen, gentler than Stannis"... or Tywin, whose death Varys was complicit in. Daenerys shows far more remorse in her inner monologue and in her actions after her eye-for-an-eye justice. Hard to say whether Stannis or Tywin would be as remorseful since they aren't POV characters.
Stannis would see such action as a function of law, per his justification for treason being punishable by death: "It has always been so. I am not . . . I am not a cruel man, Ser Davos... It is law. Law, Davos. Not cruelty."
Tywin would consider the counterpoints, but still stand by his actions: "'Explain to me why it is more noble to kill ten thousand men in battle than a dozen at dinner.' When Tyrion had no reply to that, his father continued. 'The price was cheap by any measure. '"
Next up: How likely will Cersei become the Queen that destroys Kings Landing instead of Daenerys?
I love this breakdown series of Daenerys, i look forward to the next ,until we get down to the bottom of this madness the show gave us lol
Another well crafted video. Thanks guys. Show the world that wasn't my Dany.
Seriously, how many teenage girls, at any point in history, would have the maturity and wisdom to see, hear, and accept criticism for past actions and then have the ownership to take responsibility for her actions and not lay blame somewhere else? Sure she does some things out of anger in the heat of the moment, what person doesn’t? But she LEARNS! This is the girl that annihilates an entire city because she won too easily? ALL of her victories have been ‘easy’! Can we all just forget the show ever existed? D&D did not come up with these characters. They do not know them in every way like George does. He is their father, and he loves every single one! Except maybe the mountain and Ramsey, but he still created them! Only HE knows what their final story will be. Sorry for the rant!!
I wish I worded it like you did...that's the point we were trying to make, and I think my wording missed the mark
Another great video. When is your next Benjen video? What kind of relationship that Starks have to Tyrells?
If only Sansa had married Willas... so much grief waiting for her would have been spared.
What's also funny is how the show has Dany have that conversation with Daario in bed. They were talking about the fighting pits being reopened and Daario mentions how he thinks the she round up all the masters and have them executed. Dany replies that she is "not a butcher."
The show writes really had no idea what they were doing with her character.
Yay.
Wonder how many parts Dance will be divided into. The Dany stuff in that book is super dense and full of really tough choices for her. We need a deep reading on the Quaithe stuff at the end of that book. That lady seems like the biggest threat to Dany's future sanity.
It’s tough to tell. Her chapters get denser and denser as her storyline progresses
I honestly feel like Faegon May go “mad” and dany will come to Westeros to see a burner doen KL.
Why? I never got “madness” out of the polite and intellectual conversations he had in the book. He got mad at Tyrion but that was our only time seeing him not completely composed and it was because Tyrion lied and cheated during their game. It was a lesson but Aegon doesn’t know Tyrion and it was quite an insult coming from an ugly and rude dwarf named “yollo” rather than if he had presented himself a Lannister so I kinda see where he was coming from, he’s still a kid and the lesson didn’t sink in until after their game
As Long as GRRM doesnt turn Mad Queen Cersei into an angel, it will be fine. If Dumb and Dumber had kept Missandei until the penultimate episode, it might have worked
Another great one on Dany's "madness." The only way I could see this going in the books is if there is collateral damage that is perceived as Dany going crazy. And part of the bittersweet ending would be that people see Dany in a light that is opposite to her true self.
Yes she is conflicted. But justifying her righteous anger now may play out just like in the show, that she builds and builds in this mindset that she is doing what must be done. Desensitized if you will. Depending on what future actions she thinks she 'has to' take, repeatedly and increasingly 'just', we may still end up with her burning kings landing.
Its so nice to be back in Martin's World of Ice and Fire and away from Dumb and Dumber's twisted, vapid shit pile of a show
Notification of Greenhand video? Drops what I am doing to watch!
1100+ views and not a single dislike?
Well done, guys!
If anyone has ever read both the abridged and unabridged versions of Stephen King's novel, The Stand
I'm afraid it's the same story with extra fluff for die-hards🤔
For the people that say "some of the slavers were against the crucifixion":
a) that's a show thing and what makes you think that was true?
b) they were still slavers, they owned human beings as property. There is no such thing as "good slavers".
c) In the books it was the people that chose the slavers to be crucified. Do you really think they would've chosen "good slavers"???
d) if you would stand by while children being crucified as sport, you are not a good person.
e) if everyone were like you, slavery in our world would've never been abolished. Shame on you.
Ned beheaded a man for deserting the Night's Watch and that was justice. But punishing slavers for cruficying children is wrong???
Reading that quote at the end @27:19 isn't it interesting that out of all the characters GRR Martin chose to compare Daenerys to in Lord of the Rings he chose Faramir, a good guy, better than his brother (Sean Bean in the movie ironically) as he is confronted by the same temptation as his brother (the ring) yet Faramir succeeds where Boromir failed...
Curiously, someone who also is not the rightful heir to the throne. In the show, Dany treated Jon's claim as a threat to her. Do you think in the books she will cede the throne to Aegon/Jon (who ever is the actual heir) like Faramir did to Aragorn? That would be rather magnanimous of her, and more in line with the girl holding the hands of her dying subjects.
When you said "complete her storyline" I did a noooooo! Please tell me there will be another part at least for Dance!
Great video as always!
I know this isn't really the point of this video, but this is a great recap. You should consider doing a similar series with other characters - Brienne, Theon and Davos - when WoW is a little closer on the horizon
OOTGH !!!
It's great to hear this analysis of Daenerys! Kudos!
I keep wondering if Princess Rhaenya is a foreshadowing of Danny’s future. That she will suffer too manny betrayals and have a Lady Misery poisoning her thoughts.
Also if there is an ‘appRent’ male heir to challenge her claim to the throne- how will she respond. This applies to Aegon rather than Jon’s
My bell was turned off!!! F@€KING TH-cam thank God I check your channel daily or I would have missed your amazing video
I really don’t understand why TH-cam created a function that decreases viewership
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand Mine was off as well, even though it's set to notify me of everything. All I can do is set it again and hope it sticks.
I'm curious if you guys have done or are planning to do a video about Quaithe? You don't seem to trust her but Dany does. Not to get ahead of ourselves, but I wonder if Quite could be like another Varys who pushed the mad king over the edge. Most of what we know about Arys's "madness" leading up to Duskendale was written by the people who betrayed him and we know he was tortured in Duskendale, so it's possible there was a time when he was like Dany, a young ruler making a lot of mistakes. Quaithe's basic method is one of mistrusting everyone and calling her to embrace her heritage of fire and blood.
I’m back to rewatch these videos because trolls on the internet who don’t read the books think the show didn’t butcher her character.
Best way to enjoy a Monday
Thank you for this series. You are saving the part of my soul that grew to respect ,trust and love Daenerys for the balanced leader she became. Always I try to understand her as a leader of her time. In conclusion I maintain she is a far superior leader then many modern leaders. Her ending was abysmal but this is only a reflection of speed over substance.
You all better serve Azor Ahai! I don’t know why anyone listens to anyone else lol. I’m so confident in your analysis of the entire direction of the books that the show is pretty laughable to me now. Only one I’m still not convinced of is Val because I feel like if she’s Jon’s twin that’s fine but what is her role overall? She’d be a better queen of the north I think than Sansa. she’s an actual northerner and it really bothers me that someone who got her dire wolf killed and was more Tully than Stark could potentially inherit the northern seat. If it doesn’t belong to Jon it belongs to Val. Another reason why I think the show combines at least two character arcs in some of our major characters and therefore they can pass off s8 as being as close to the ending of the books as they could get.
Jorah being so oblivious that Barristan was able to live and work with him for months without ever realizing it has always struck me as hilariously bad. I guessed who he was from when he showed up to Dany. But I hadbto step back and examine what I know versus what Jorah would know...
That honestly makes Arthur Dayne, Gerald Hightower and Oswald Whent being alive seem more plausible, famous people are not known by face in this world; add a few years of age and facial hair and almost anyone can be unreconizable! Not to even mention glamours, skinchanging and Faceless Man, every secret identity is possible.
Part of what upseted me the most about how seasons 4 and 5 was the omition of Belwas and Brown Ben Plumm...
Dany i dont like but i do like how she has a lot of nice parrales to cercie and rob where she takes super high dangrous moves to get gains where future trouble may rise from it and then with rob who killed the karstark guy and felt it was needed to happen so i at least like how the book went better as the show was a mess.
I don't think she is crazy but rather will lead to a eye for an eye way as war is going on and dany is gone.
I
This is therapy for my GoT PTSD. Thank you both. 🤗
Great video! I still suspect that Daenerys will barbecue Volantis, but it will be justified. They've basically started a world war in Mereen by the time Drogon flew away with Dany. What is your take on why Volantis is so horrible, by the way?
The slaves in Volantis are ready to rise up to support Daenerys. I think it was Tyrion who was told of this when he was there before Jorah captured him. So Volantis could fall pretty easily from within.
Green Hand !!!
Ready!
Who will the two men (the 2nd and 3rd "Heads of the Dragons", and yes, I know they don't *have* to be men) be? Tyrion and Jon are obviously the prime candidates right now, though is there anyone else that anyone can think of that would be a good fit?
F/Aegon? .....Stannis? ....Sweet Robin? .....Craster?
16:48 I think Ned would have sent them to the Night's Watch honestly. He'd never had to kill that many people before (besides in battle but that's different). Dany, however, couldn't have sent them anywhere, certainly not the the Night's Watch which no one there understands or will submit to. So yeah, what else was there to do really, that would stop them going to another city and killing more children and slaves.
20:04 is that Selena Gomez’s face BWHAHAHA IM SCREAMING!!!!!
Oh make no mistake, she will 'go mad' alright. It'll just be handled better in the books. What else do you expect from a family that committed acts of "Sweet Home Alabama" for over 300 years and multiple generations? Is it a surprise that the Targaryens had very few (less than 6) rulers who weren't complete nutjobs or sterile? George is making a point by comparing the Targs to the Spanish Habsburgs and Ptolemaic Egyptians. Both historical royal lines were doomed to failure since their rulers were abominations born against the natural order of mammalian reproduction. Inbreeding in dogs and other farm animals for multiple generations results in malformed specimen. Same thing with humans. In spite of muh bLoOd oF tHe dRaGoN or kind-hearted Daenerys, her ruin due to either madness or infertility is highly likely, if not certain. Doesn't take from the fact she's a well written character, though.
GRRM will do a Thanos on Queen Dany, she will burn the million ingrates BUT thats the price of one Slave girl
Love love loving this @the order of the greenhand! Your in depth and psychological study of her actions thoughts and feelings is brilliant. Cannot wait for the next.
Love Barristin! “A man who fears battle wins no victores”.
Personally I'm of the mindset is that of, yes she is/will be mad. Either she already is mad and the crazy stuff around is chance or fate, or she is tainted by other powers, and considering George's love of Lovecraft, sorry Dany, you fucked, Chaos has you or is fattening you up. Though yeah I feel for the poor captains, imagine someone using a Rolls Royce as a road block for against a Ford pickup. And that's not Justice, that is vengeance; Justice seeks to restore, vengeance seeks balance the scales, revenge seeks to teach
Green Hand is back!
Let me take this in before I go to sleep in Accra. Y’all are amazing with this analysis
I will never forgive D&D 4 what they did 2 our beloved Dragon Queen 👑! I wonder if the old woman who asked how many is the Green Grace?
She convinced herself it was just, though it made her feel like an avenging dragon. So even though it was definitely vengeance, she convinces herself it was just. It wasn’t just because she allowed the Mereenese to pick who died instead of finding a better way to decide.
Our hearts are fickle, that's why it's so much easier to forgive and forget. One minute we want justice, the next to forgive.
I got my popcorn ready
jorah is the definition of low cunning
Her mistake, was not finding out who was responsible. She was just, but not thorough, so that made her wrong.
When pointing to this chapter about potentates future madness, it’s not about the action itself, but about the fact that she can justify doing bad things if she has a reason. Here it’s a good reason, but it might not be so in the future. Besides, she gave them no trial whatsoever. Rule like that in Westeros, and you’re gonna piss some people off
I clicked on this video as soon as I got the notification
Could you do a series like this but see if arya will go west of westeros?
Been enjoying for years how many hours i have spend on this is incredible ❤️ and order of the green hand you he best
Dany Questioning if she did the Right thing shows she is Human if I was in Her Shoes I must Admit I more Likely do something worse than crucified a bunch of Children killers don’t know what that says about me as Human.
According to D&D you're mad. You will probably massacre a million people in a couple of weeks and if you're a woman, that period of time will be shortened to a few days.
It saddens me how little this chanel is. They deserve so much more for what theyre doing
This series restored my faith in Dany as a character after the series finale.
"I'm guessing alot of you still disagree that what Dani did wasn't justice." Nope, I agree with your entire train of thought. I don't think justice and vengeance have to be mutually exclusive. I mean justice is a mild form of vengeance and there are still situations today where it is an eye for an eye of sorts. For example a murderer being sentenced to death or life in prison which is still an end to your life of sorts. Also, I really like your argument about Ned Stark. Nobody would've batted an eye at putting 162 child killers to death. He probably would've just executed them and been done with it but we have to remember she is still pretty young along with no education or preparation to command an army and run a city. I don't know about you guys but things at 16 or 17 years old was pretty cut and dry then because you don't know enough of the world to not think that way. If I was in her shoes at that age I'd have probably command the 162 slavers be crucified as well. What's good for the goose is good for the gander but as an adult I probably would've thought better of it.
Honestly while reading this chapter I thought yes you show them what they did was fucked up. In my family we have a saying we use when someone is told hey don't do that because of x y and z negative outcome and the outcome happens and we respond "that's what you get" and that's how I felt reading this chapter. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
Remembering Hiroshima, Sorry Queen Dany BUT you need to be WHAT the West MUST remember !!!
Let's give a big Green Hand
@The Order of the Green Hand- late to the party- the books are so better.You can see how Arstan was unnoticable. yes, jaime too. I do think that Dany would go mad if S7 & S8 were full 12 ep seasons.- it would have build up necessary to be justifiable. And not flipping on in one ep. another D&D exit strategy. So, when GRRM finishes the books- Dany will go nuts but in the right way. Believable. Word up.
My suspicion is that the books will continue the story beyond what we saw in the series finale. All the main characters seem to be going places...and people don't necessarily stay dead in Westeros. Seems to me that GRRM might be holding something in reserve... Well, _I_ would have, if I was GRRM.
I greatly appreciate these series of videos, I think they clearly set forth a far more accurate accounting of Daenery's story.
My biggest problem I have & bothers me the most is my contention that the burning of Kings landing is foreshadowed by Jamie as well as Danny's fate as the wildfire is the stories chekhov's gun.
By Danny attacking the Red Keep and nothing else I always saw this as the way the wildfire would unintentionally be ignited by Danny's dragon's as a trap by Qyburn under direct orders from Cersei. Thereby letting the audience know it wasn't Daenerys fault but all the characters believing her guilty so a tragedy all the same. Because Daenerys Targaryen was innocent.
Great content great love you guys
Thanks My Lady and Knight. There are not strangers here, only friends and followers you have not yet met🤘🏼
In my trauma from the show as Sam and the other Maesters, writing the Song of Ice & Fire history. So let's blame Dickon! Took forever to listen to the books because of the Stone Heart. I need more Rogue Princess!
I still say that Dany should go mad after being shot off of Drogon, captured by Euron, tortured, and forced to drink way too much shade of the evening. She should escape and kill Euron in a brutal fashion, but not stop there. It might be nice if Jon reveals his identity and claims the crown only because her advisers insist that she is as good as dead and that he army needs a new figurehead to lead them in avenging her. He would be loyal to her, but she wold view it as an unforgivable betrayal.
Masterpiece!
I freakin love this shit
I don't think that Dany will be assassinated by Martin. If she does get pregnant she will die in childbirth or rule from Dragonstone.
GRRM: War is wrong
Daenerys: I'll make war
ASOIAF fandom: Daenerys is a good person
GRRM: My books aren't some kind of fairy tale where all plans go as planned and doing the right thing is easy
ASOIAF fandom: Daenerys is surely going to conquer Westeros and kill every cruel person but the likelable ones and marry Jon snow who happens to be a secret prince and rule together for the rest of their days
This. I have to sigh at some of the things that were said in this video as GRRM is a peace-loving hippie (the man was a conscientious objector to Vietnam) in origins who acknowledges his views aren't popular, but still beats his anti-war drum nevertheless (that's the whole point of The Armageddon Rag after all). Characters who justify going to war, and further go so far as to commit war crimes, even when they do so with good intentions or in the name of "Justice", never end up in good positions afterwards in his stories. This analysis is selling the fairytale the fandom wants to hear, which I imagine must be good for views... but it's grossly missing the point. Sure, she questions herself, that's also George's MO--he thinks the only story worth telling is the idea of the human heart in conflict with itself. And how best to do that with Dany's character is to put the question of what she's willing to do in order to be Queen of Westeros and sit the Iron Throne. She wants the throne, but she also wants the love of the common people of Westeros like she got in Essos--but she can't have both (not with that foreign army she brings with her in her wake that paints her rather easily as a foreign conqueror). That's a George RR Martin type of conflict, the human heart in conflict with itself, and the best way to do that with Dany's character is to put her desire to be Queen in conflict with her love of the common people.
Did you watch this series at all?
@@nosai10 Did you read the books at all?
I neither think Daenerys will get mad but i can't see the books trying to justifice her war after the speech of that septon who fought in the war of the nine penny kings which was probably one of the lest harmfull for westeros since Jaehaerys repelled an invasion without losing a single man. I know she wanted to free the slaves but in real world when slavery was banned was by diplomacy not by killing people and it's absolutely worst in the case of westeros since her only reason to invade Westeros is her mad father being king before she was even born.
@@ivanmp3e48 Apart from how slavery is banned in other parts of their world and is punishable by death. Slavery was eventually banned in the real world hundreds of years after the medieval period also. And I don't see why Daenerys bringing war has to mean she kills random innocents for no reason.
Yep! He compared Daenerys dragons to nuclear weapons and says what Daenerys is doing in Slaver's Bay is the same as US invading Iraq!
Love you guys.
Am I like my father?
Thanks for the video. Finally got a day off tomorrow so I can catch up on the Q & A I missed.
I’m reading the books again, but can’t stop reading them with Sir’s voice in my head.
Thanks for welcoming us into the Wolf's Den. Let's do this!
Ned would have condemned them to die, but then grant all of them a reprieve if they agree to join the Nights Watch.