You have to remember that at this point, ChuDat was on a historic run through 2017, and was ranked 7th in the world at the time of Shine 2017. If ChuDat's win is counted and he advances, he goes on to play M2K, a player he holds an all-time winning record against, and then plays S2J, who he had beaten earlier in the year in their only set against each other. If ChuDat wins this set, he could've genuinely made a run all the way to Grands during the best time of his career. Instead, Leffen loses to M2K next round and ChuDat never has another good shot at a tournament.
@@freddiesimmons1394 wobbling is and should have always been banned and the people we have doing juggles now proves that. Chudat was crutching on one thing for his higher placements. If the ban of one technique made you fall off then maybe you didnt deserve to be there in the first place.
@@Readesu one technique that dramatically makes your mid-tier character better? Yeah, if they ban tail spikes on pikachu I'm sure axe would "fall off" and you'd be discrediting him too. Homer take
@@freddiesimmons1394 acting like a tail spike and a technique that does 0 to death from anywhere with no skill is the homer take. the fuck are you talking about.
I just think the fact that Leffen did a controller check mid set and still ran the rest of it should have waived his right to complain. He had the opportunity to call something as wrong there, but only retroactively did he actually want anything done about the set once he realized he had a loophole to grime his way through
What would you want him to do there? Be able to somehow, through a like 3 second impromptu check, be able to determine with enough certainty to stop a top 8 set mid match and accuse the TOs of turning UCF off mid tournament? when it was literally the first major tournament to use UCF? That isn't a reasonable thing for someone to assume happened rather than that they must just be fucking up in the heat of the moment. If he'd stopped the match mid set during Top 8 and accused them of not using UCF, everyone would have hated Leffen even more. Nobody during the first tournament likely could have made that determination from that little button check, hell it was so early the literal tournament organizers hadn't figured it out yet.
I thought this at first too, but changed my mind because of the following: during the short controller check, it is possble that all backdashes are successful with UCF off.
@@Nocturne989 It really wouldn't have been hard to swap out though just in case, could have just snagged a memory card from any other gamecube in the venue and resumed from there
@@rheawelsh4142 The GameCube being used for the other matches in Top 8? Or the others that were likely already packed up or gone since the owners weren't in Top 8?
contract signed, true Also, they were essentially playing the same way they would've 3 months before, or whatever. The fact that UCF was brand new sways my opinion a bit here
I understand your point, but i disagree that merely because they fist bumped and agreed to the result then it should stand. As a counterexample I can say that the people that lost to the hacked Pichu also fist bumped and agreed to the result, but i don't think that it is enough reason to accept that result.
@@javier5842he difference is nobody knew hacked Pichu was a thing until long after the fact. Leffen noticed mid set, agreed to the result, and then bitched about it afterwards. The second he agreed to the result *after* already knowing about the issue, he forfeited all rights he had to request a re-do.
knowing leffen, he wouldn't have stood for a replay if the same thing happened in reverse, and chu wouldn't have ever insinuated it should be replayed. leffen did a controller check after game 4, said nothing, and finished out the set. that was his chance to say something imo
Imo the decision to replay it was the correct call based on the principal that the tournament was supposed to be played on UCF, not replaying it would go against the rules to an extent. But at the same time, I think Chu's win should definitely count legacy wise. This was the first and only time until SluG recently at Mainstage 2022 that an Ice Climbers beat Leffen in tournament. This result is massive legacy wise, and it would be very disingenuous to discredit it because UCF wasn't on at the very first tournament it existed. I've seen people argue that Chu never beat Leffen because this doesnt count, and that's just very very off to me, especially bearing in mind that they do count the 12~ish years prior to this tournament, where UCF did not exist.
He never agreed to replay it, he said himself he was forced to replay the set by TOs. Leffen cry babied his way to a rematch, which if he really felt bad about, could have just declined as he was already out of the tournament.
I think in the rules, at least at the time, things like this or going to a stage already won on for example had to be brought up while the set is being played, if not then that sucks but it's worse to invalidate a pretty fair win.
By far one of the worst TO calls of all time. Replaying the set is a stain on the Shine series...and it's sad they're gone and a lot of people will remember the series for THIS terrible call instead of actual hype moments.
I was the leader of the MBR for a few years. I have multiple opinions on this. 1. At the end of the day, it's the TOs call to make and the TO has to live with the consequences of the decision. We really have no community checks against bad TOs except to avoid them and their events. 2. If I were the TO, I would not call a replay. The point of rules is that both competitors agree that the match was competitive. IMO Leffen agreed to this premise by completing the set. 3. I think the replay call being made under peer pressure shows pretty clearly that it was not the right one. The TO checking twitter and trying to please the masses is a cold "no" from me. 4. Chu should have refused to replay the set. Taking a confirmed win from a player in a top 8 is a super bad look and there's no way the second outcome would have stuck. All IMO
I think that if anyone other than Leffen was in this situation it wouldn't have been nearly as controversial- instead it was just played off as "just another heel moment" when instead it's p much entirely on the TO's for their call
Great video, Chaler! The quality of your videos has been increasing noticeably, and they were really good to begin with too! I look forward to your future content :^)
i wish you covered it game by game and talked about what happened due to missed dashbacks or failed shield drops. just the raw numbers don’t actually paint a complete picture, esp if leffen went for stuff less the further along in the set bc of controller problems
If it were something that only effected leffen, I’d say they should have replayed it. But seeing as they were playing under the same parameters, it definitely should not have been replayed. Especially since leffen did a controller check mid set and kept playing
Eh the fact that Leffen made a mid match button check is a better argument in favor to replaying the set than not: he clearly noticed something was off but attributed it to his own play, this is a massive psychological buff to his opponent
Should not have been replayed. The playing field was even between the players, and they both made the choice to complete the set. Simple, as. Essayists in the comments can cite the deep magics till they're blue in the face, it can't overturn that fact.
Given that the only unbalanced metric in favor of the loser was a single Shield drop I think the verdict would come down on whether or not that single moment was punished and then you can decide on the degree that affected the match
Replaying a game or sport of any kind that already finished is really dumb for almost any reason. And the reasons that would be valid likely stop the game from even happening or completing in the first place.
Should have been replayed based on principle/consistency. The tournament was supposed to be played on UCF. In hindsight it's easier to see it probably didn't affect the outcome of the set, but the TO's had no way of analysing this at the time so I think the decision is fine. It should be noted at the time, a fair amount of players would refuse to go to tournaments that were not running UCF, making it pretty unfair if a tournament that was supposed to be running it wasn't.
Yeah obviously in the moment I think the TO's made the call they thought was right it was extremely hard and no matter what people would have been made. Just a shit situation but fun to see how much it actually impacted the set
Idk, there couldve easily been other sets during that tournament with ucf off, but no one replayed those sets, this is just special treatment towards leffen
The rules were clear that UCF was to be used in the tourney. Leffen's intentions may not have been ethnical, but for fairness in play the rules must be applied without exception in any competition
The fact that Leffen noticed and didnt say anything right then is all the information you need to say no, it should not have been replayed. The saying of "speak now or forever hold your peace" is perfectly applicable for this.
leffen acted like a crybaby, it shouldn't have been replayed they were playing on the exact same setup everyone had been playing on since 2017 leffen just got outplayed and should have taken the L like a grownup as opposed to robbing Chudat of a nice upset
I didn’t even know much about the set and especially didn’t know about the controller check Leffen did. But all that does is further my opinion that it should have not been replayed. ChuDat won that set.
While I think the data for whether or not UCF played a factor is valuable, I think that doesn't matter as much when it comes to the TO call. I think under the pretense that players expect UCF to be on, and the remaining sets after the mistake was caught will have UCF on, can be argued to be unfair. I don't know how soon it was caught, but let's say if Leffen vs Chu was the only set with UCF off, but the remaining 8 or so sets have it on, it can be seen as not fair that Leffen and Chu's set were the only exceptions to it. So I think purely on the basis of standardizing the game play environment to what the players expect, I can see why the TO's decided to have the set replayed, and I think from that perspective, it was the right call. On the basis of if it really did affect the set? Yeah on that end, it didn't really seem to make a big difference whether it was on or off, and Chu really did just beat Leffen normally. But then again, that was for this set specifically, if UCF *could* have made a noticeable enough difference, I think that matters enough for consistency's sake. But I think the fact that it's a tournament setting, where the TO's have the responsibility of sanctioning a consistent and transparent environment for the games played, it was the right call. (Also good on you for the research on this video, must have been a pain lol.
If the tournament was advertised to be a tournament with UCF running throughout it, then a set with it off should be considered void. At the same time, the way it was handled was extremely scuzzy, with Leffen clearly suspecting mid-set but only calling after he lost to have a rematch chance. So while it's a technically correct move, it doesn't feel correct.
when you started talking about controllers i skipped ahead to skip what seemed like ad out of gut instinct lol also: >play ufc tourn >look inside >no ufc
It was right to be replayed, it was UCF tourney so a match without UCF should be void, whether it changes the outcome or the gameplay it doesn't matter, it needs to be replayed for fairness and adherence to the rules.
I think the match should have been replayed and, more importantly, I 100% think that whether it affected one player or another more or less shouldn't be a factor in determining that. For one, the whole argument of "don't replay it cause not having UCF doesn't really matter" is disingenuous. If not having UCF and dealing with missed dashbacks and shield drops didn't matter...the whole good vs bad controller debacle, Dan putting tons of hours into making a fix, and basically every tournament immediately switching to it wouldn't have happened. Top players wouldn't have been hoarding good controllers. The community had made their stance clear; it mattered and thus we're gonna start using UCF to even the playing field and the money field. The entire rest of Shine was run with UCF, both before that round and after it. You can say that Chu won "playing the game we've all been playing for the last X years" but what he didn't win playing was the same game that everyone had been playing and agreed to be playing that day. It mattered enough to decide to run the whole tournament on it and it mattered enough for the players to agree to it; you've already decided it matters substantially, so it matters enough to replay a top 8 set. Secondly, with the whole argument of "Leffen should have stopped the match after his impromptu three second button check"...What would you want him to do there? Be able to somehow, through a like 3 second impromptu check, be able to determine with enough certainty to stop a top 8 set mid match and accuse the TOs of turning UCF off mid tournament? when it was literally the first major tournament to use UCF? That isn't a reasonable thing for someone to assume happened rather than that they must just be fucking up in the heat of the moment. If he'd stopped the match mid set during Top 8 and accused them of not using UCF, everyone would have hated Leffen even more. Nobody during the first tournament likely could have made that determination from that little button check, hell it was so early the literal tournament organizers hadn't figured it out yet. These determinations don't get to be made with the benefit of hindsight about whether the decision affected X or Y player; you have to make a choice then and there, and you need to stick firm regardless of who it affected cause the whole idea of using UCF in the first place was to even the playing field; to make sure everyone in the room is playing the *exact same game of Melee* and it was evident and obvious that didn't happen there. Yeah the specifics of this situation are unfortunate, but you can't let that alter your decision and turn you into "oh yeah it matters enough for us to play different, buy different controllers, refuse to use controllers, develop a community fix, and very quickly implement that fix in basically every major tournament scene, but it simultaneously didn't matter enough in this specific match where the villain of the community we don't like got beat but then won when it got replayed with UCF on."
The set should have been replayed. Perhaps my mindset is overly rule-based, but IMO it doesn't matter what the result was or which player was more disadvantaged; the set was played with the wrong configuration, period. A lot of the sentiment against it being replayed seems to be related to Leffen and Chu's reputations. Leffen has been a villain for a long time, just look at the other comments here. I usually root against him too, but that's irrelevant to the ruling itself.
imo it shouldnt have been replayed because he complained only afterwards. if he thought something was off he should've called a TO and let him decide what to do. since he didnt went all the way with the process is his bad for not doing it
I don't play smash bros, i'm not a proffessional in fighting game or anything else, i have no idea of how much it affected Leffen (haven't watched that part of the video yet) but for me the decision to replay or not the match is as clear as diamond. The rules stated that the fix was to be used and was the standart for the tournament. It wasn't activated in this match therefore the rules weren't matched so the battle result doesn't count and it have to be redone properly.
The TO's billed the event as the first major event to use UCF. It was their responsibility to make sure everything was running properly. Should've been run back, but at the request of the TO's, not a player.
How did you make this entire video then **not** show the situations the dashbacks and sheikd drops failed?? By your numbers its only a little over 10 incidents. The situations the failures happened in is **vastly** more important then the number or ratio. Very dissapointing video as i didnt learn anything new that would have changed my opinion.
I think an important aspect of this a lot of people miss is how much feeling off even a little bit affects fox, especially when you don't know exactly what the problem is. Leffen obviously knew something was wrong which is why he did the controller check, but especially considering how much people disliked him at the time it makes sense that he wouldn't say anything unless he was absolutely sure there was a problem which is hard to tell when you're also focusing on a difficult set. Just that slight delay in decision making or hesitancy to do something after it went wrong last time absolutely effects you even when it's not obvious, especially in a matchup where you need to be scared of dying at any percent to a single grab anywhere on the stage. It's also worth noting that the TOs of the event have gone or record saying they decided it should be replayed before leffen tweet and that has nothing to do with the end verdict, people just love hating leffen so they pin it on him
The way leffen plays as if it isn’t ucf (dash forward before dash back, jump ff instead of shield drop) Makes the conspiracy part of my brain think he turned ucf off for insurance lmao. As questionable as his movement was, its definitely not evidence that he turned ucf off on its own. Does anyone have any explanation for why UCF was turned off in the first place?
Out-griming ChuDat is one of the most impressive feats in human history, when you think about it.
You have to remember that at this point, ChuDat was on a historic run through 2017, and was ranked 7th in the world at the time of Shine 2017. If ChuDat's win is counted and he advances, he goes on to play M2K, a player he holds an all-time winning record against, and then plays S2J, who he had beaten earlier in the year in their only set against each other. If ChuDat wins this set, he could've genuinely made a run all the way to Grands during the best time of his career. Instead, Leffen loses to M2K next round and ChuDat never has another good shot at a tournament.
thank god I hate chudat
@@westong9082why
@@freddiesimmons1394 wobbling is and should have always been banned and the people we have doing juggles now proves that. Chudat was crutching on one thing for his higher placements. If the ban of one technique made you fall off then maybe you didnt deserve to be there in the first place.
@@Readesu one technique that dramatically makes your mid-tier character better? Yeah, if they ban tail spikes on pikachu I'm sure axe would "fall off" and you'd be discrediting him too. Homer take
@@freddiesimmons1394 acting like a tail spike and a technique that does 0 to death from anywhere with no skill is the homer take. the fuck are you talking about.
I just think the fact that Leffen did a controller check mid set and still ran the rest of it should have waived his right to complain. He had the opportunity to call something as wrong there, but only retroactively did he actually want anything done about the set once he realized he had a loophole to grime his way through
big agree there
What would you want him to do there? Be able to somehow, through a like 3 second impromptu check, be able to determine with enough certainty to stop a top 8 set mid match and accuse the TOs of turning UCF off mid tournament? when it was literally the first major tournament to use UCF? That isn't a reasonable thing for someone to assume happened rather than that they must just be fucking up in the heat of the moment. If he'd stopped the match mid set during Top 8 and accused them of not using UCF, everyone would have hated Leffen even more. Nobody during the first tournament likely could have made that determination from that little button check, hell it was so early the literal tournament organizers hadn't figured it out yet.
I thought this at first too, but changed my mind because of the following: during the short controller check, it is possble that all backdashes are successful with UCF off.
@@Nocturne989 It really wouldn't have been hard to swap out though just in case, could have just snagged a memory card from any other gamecube in the venue and resumed from there
@@rheawelsh4142 The GameCube being used for the other matches in Top 8? Or the others that were likely already packed up or gone since the owners weren't in Top 8?
In my opinion it should not have been replayed because they fist bumped and agreed to the result at the end of the set
contract signed, true
Also, they were essentially playing the same way they would've 3 months before, or whatever. The fact that UCF was brand new sways my opinion a bit here
I understand your point, but i disagree that merely because they fist bumped and agreed to the result then it should stand. As a counterexample I can say that the people that lost to the hacked Pichu also fist bumped and agreed to the result, but i don't think that it is enough reason to accept that result.
The almighty fist bump of acceptance
If that was the case, and the set wasn't reset because of that, Leffen wouldn't fistbump anyone for the rest of his life
@@javier5842he difference is nobody knew hacked Pichu was a thing until long after the fact. Leffen noticed mid set, agreed to the result, and then bitched about it afterwards. The second he agreed to the result *after* already knowing about the issue, he forfeited all rights he had to request a re-do.
knowing leffen, he wouldn't have stood for a replay if the same thing happened in reverse, and chu wouldn't have ever insinuated it should be replayed. leffen did a controller check after game 4, said nothing, and finished out the set. that was his chance to say something imo
Leffen being a literal piss baby and johnsing his way through a bracket, pretty on brand
Imo the decision to replay it was the correct call based on the principal that the tournament was supposed to be played on UCF, not replaying it would go against the rules to an extent.
But at the same time, I think Chu's win should definitely count legacy wise. This was the first and only time until SluG recently at Mainstage 2022 that an Ice Climbers beat Leffen in tournament. This result is massive legacy wise, and it would be very disingenuous to discredit it because UCF wasn't on at the very first tournament it existed. I've seen people argue that Chu never beat Leffen because this doesnt count, and that's just very very off to me, especially bearing in mind that they do count the 12~ish years prior to this tournament, where UCF did not exist.
based
Chu was literally fucking robbed that event, should've never agreed to replay it; costed him a top 10 spot that year too.
Agreed
i mean he still lost the second set
He never agreed to replay it, he said himself he was forced to replay the set by TOs. Leffen cry babied his way to a rematch, which if he really felt bad about, could have just declined as he was already out of the tournament.
@@duskpede5146 @ and he won the 1st one. What's your point?
@@eef376 that he should’ve won the one that mattered
going to venture a guess that had Leffen won the set, he wouldn't have said anything about it...
So yeah, ChuDat should have won the set.
i hope chaler gets enough subs to afford legs one day
(also shouldn't have been replayed)
One day... I need a bigger bit of green fabric for that
I think in the rules, at least at the time, things like this or going to a stage already won on for example had to be brought up while the set is being played, if not then that sucks but it's worse to invalidate a pretty fair win.
What if the damage ratio is at 0.6 and no one noticed up until after the game was finished? Is it still a pretty fair win?
@@javier5842 if nobody noticed something so blatant then they earned that loss
imo should not be replayed
By far one of the worst TO calls of all time. Replaying the set is a stain on the Shine series...and it's sad they're gone and a lot of people will remember the series for THIS terrible call instead of actual hype moments.
I was the leader of the MBR for a few years. I have multiple opinions on this.
1. At the end of the day, it's the TOs call to make and the TO has to live with the consequences of the decision. We really have no community checks against bad TOs except to avoid them and their events.
2. If I were the TO, I would not call a replay. The point of rules is that both competitors agree that the match was competitive. IMO Leffen agreed to this premise by completing the set.
3. I think the replay call being made under peer pressure shows pretty clearly that it was not the right one. The TO checking twitter and trying to please the masses is a cold "no" from me.
4. Chu should have refused to replay the set. Taking a confirmed win from a player in a top 8 is a super bad look and there's no way the second outcome would have stuck.
All IMO
I agree w you on the fourth point for sure. Chu would have been better off not replaying the set
I think that if anyone other than Leffen was in this situation it wouldn't have been nearly as controversial- instead it was just played off as "just another heel moment" when instead it's p much entirely on the TO's for their call
I saw the thumbnail and somehow I KNEW it was Leffen vs ChuDat
Great video, Chaler! The quality of your videos has been increasing noticeably, and they were really good to begin with too! I look forward to your future content :^)
i wish you covered it game by game and talked about what happened due to missed dashbacks or failed shield drops. just the raw numbers don’t actually paint a complete picture, esp if leffen went for stuff less the further along in the set bc of controller problems
If it were something that only effected leffen, I’d say they should have replayed it. But seeing as they were playing under the same parameters, it definitely should not have been replayed. Especially since leffen did a controller check mid set and kept playing
Eh the fact that Leffen made a mid match button check is a better argument in favor to replaying the set than not: he clearly noticed something was off but attributed it to his own play, this is a massive psychological buff to his opponent
Should not have been replayed. The playing field was even between the players, and they both made the choice to complete the set.
Simple, as.
Essayists in the comments can cite the deep magics till they're blue in the face, it can't overturn that fact.
I still have the shell of the 12.99 controller framed on my shelf, this is a true story of Alex.
Given that the only unbalanced metric in favor of the loser was a single Shield drop I think the verdict would come down on whether or not that single moment was punished and then you can decide on the degree that affected the match
Leffen never learned the rule, "No Johns."
youre a hero of smash. counting the dashbacks, wow. youre my goat
Replaying a game or sport of any kind that already finished is really dumb for almost any reason. And the reasons that would be valid likely stop the game from even happening or completing in the first place.
Should have been replayed based on principle/consistency. The tournament was supposed to be played on UCF.
In hindsight it's easier to see it probably didn't affect the outcome of the set, but the TO's had no way of analysing this at the time so I think the decision is fine.
It should be noted at the time, a fair amount of players would refuse to go to tournaments that were not running UCF, making it pretty unfair if a tournament that was supposed to be running it wasn't.
Yeah obviously in the moment I think the TO's made the call they thought was right it was extremely hard and no matter what people would have been made. Just a shit situation but fun to see how much it actually impacted the set
Idk, there couldve easily been other sets during that tournament with ucf off, but no one replayed those sets, this is just special treatment towards leffen
The rules were clear that UCF was to be used in the tourney. Leffen's intentions may not have been ethnical, but for fairness in play the rules must be applied without exception in any competition
Anybody know the name of the song played in the outro? Thank you and have a beautiful day
The fact that Leffen noticed and didnt say anything right then is all the information you need to say no, it should not have been replayed.
The saying of "speak now or forever hold your peace" is perfectly applicable for this.
if he didn't lose the set in the first place, then he wouldn't have said anything, period.
leffen acted like a crybaby, it shouldn't have been replayed
they were playing on the exact same setup everyone had been playing on since 2017
leffen just got outplayed and should have taken the L like a grownup as opposed to robbing Chudat of a nice upset
I didn’t even know much about the set and especially didn’t know about the controller check Leffen did. But all that does is further my opinion that it should have not been replayed. ChuDat won that set.
Where did you bye your controler ?
While I think the data for whether or not UCF played a factor is valuable, I think that doesn't matter as much when it comes to the TO call.
I think under the pretense that players expect UCF to be on, and the remaining sets after the mistake was caught will have UCF on, can be argued to be unfair.
I don't know how soon it was caught, but let's say if Leffen vs Chu was the only set with UCF off, but the remaining 8 or so sets have it on, it can be seen as not fair that Leffen and Chu's set were the only exceptions to it.
So I think purely on the basis of standardizing the game play environment to what the players expect, I can see why the TO's decided to have the set replayed, and I think from that perspective, it was the right call.
On the basis of if it really did affect the set? Yeah on that end, it didn't really seem to make a big difference whether it was on or off, and Chu really did just beat Leffen normally. But then again, that was for this set specifically, if UCF *could* have made a noticeable enough difference, I think that matters enough for consistency's sake.
But I think the fact that it's a tournament setting, where the TO's have the responsibility of sanctioning a consistent and transparent environment for the games played, it was the right call.
(Also good on you for the research on this video, must have been a pain lol.
I definitely think it shouldn’t have especially after the set was finished and both players were effected by it
love your dedication and your work
Whats your outro music man it sounds like spirit tracks or rivals of aether but i cant put my finger on it
Might be original idk but it bangs
7:43 what is the song?
Persona 4 - Specialist
@@Kreuzi44 you’re an absolute legend, thank you
What's the music in the first ~40 seconds?
They should have done one more set after the second one. Chu won a set, leffen won a set. There should have been a tie breaker.
If the tournament was advertised to be a tournament with UCF running throughout it, then a set with it off should be considered void. At the same time, the way it was handled was extremely scuzzy, with Leffen clearly suspecting mid-set but only calling after he lost to have a rematch chance. So while it's a technically correct move, it doesn't feel correct.
Whats the song at 1:20
when you started talking about controllers i skipped ahead to skip what seemed like ad out of gut instinct lol
also:
>play ufc tourn
>look inside
>no ufc
>le meme arrows
@@LeavingMirror shut up you petulant child
Idk if the players agreed to replay no worries. But if one of them disagreed idk. Not my circus.
It was right to be replayed, it was UCF tourney so a match without UCF should be void, whether it changes the outcome or the gameplay it doesn't matter, it needs to be replayed for fairness and adherence to the rules.
UCF was introduced to fix problems,if no problems were found(in the controller check) then it really doesn't matter
imo should be rewatched. good video
1:55 activate windows stream when?
I think the match should have been replayed and, more importantly, I 100% think that whether it affected one player or another more or less shouldn't be a factor in determining that.
For one, the whole argument of "don't replay it cause not having UCF doesn't really matter" is disingenuous. If not having UCF and dealing with missed dashbacks and shield drops didn't matter...the whole good vs bad controller debacle, Dan putting tons of hours into making a fix, and basically every tournament immediately switching to it wouldn't have happened. Top players wouldn't have been hoarding good controllers. The community had made their stance clear; it mattered and thus we're gonna start using UCF to even the playing field and the money field. The entire rest of Shine was run with UCF, both before that round and after it. You can say that Chu won "playing the game we've all been playing for the last X years" but what he didn't win playing was the same game that everyone had been playing and agreed to be playing that day. It mattered enough to decide to run the whole tournament on it and it mattered enough for the players to agree to it; you've already decided it matters substantially, so it matters enough to replay a top 8 set.
Secondly, with the whole argument of "Leffen should have stopped the match after his impromptu three second button check"...What would you want him to do there? Be able to somehow, through a like 3 second impromptu check, be able to determine with enough certainty to stop a top 8 set mid match and accuse the TOs of turning UCF off mid tournament? when it was literally the first major tournament to use UCF? That isn't a reasonable thing for someone to assume happened rather than that they must just be fucking up in the heat of the moment. If he'd stopped the match mid set during Top 8 and accused them of not using UCF, everyone would have hated Leffen even more. Nobody during the first tournament likely could have made that determination from that little button check, hell it was so early the literal tournament organizers hadn't figured it out yet.
These determinations don't get to be made with the benefit of hindsight about whether the decision affected X or Y player; you have to make a choice then and there, and you need to stick firm regardless of who it affected cause the whole idea of using UCF in the first place was to even the playing field; to make sure everyone in the room is playing the *exact same game of Melee* and it was evident and obvious that didn't happen there. Yeah the specifics of this situation are unfortunate, but you can't let that alter your decision and turn you into "oh yeah it matters enough for us to play different, buy different controllers, refuse to use controllers, develop a community fix, and very quickly implement that fix in basically every major tournament scene, but it simultaneously didn't matter enough in this specific match where the villain of the community we don't like got beat but then won when it got replayed with UCF on."
You're completely right, can't believe how many people missed the point
imo post match salt
should have played another set and done best 3/5 sets
Anything that makes an ICs lose, ESPECIALLY Chudat can only be a good thing.
The set should have been replayed. Perhaps my mindset is overly rule-based, but IMO it doesn't matter what the result was or which player was more disadvantaged; the set was played with the wrong configuration, period. A lot of the sentiment against it being replayed seems to be related to Leffen and Chu's reputations. Leffen has been a villain for a long time, just look at the other comments here. I usually root against him too, but that's irrelevant to the ruling itself.
should not have been replayed
Imo should be replayed
Leffen John moment #757
imo it shouldnt have been replayed because he complained only afterwards. if he thought something was off he should've called a TO and let him decide what to do. since he didnt went all the way with the process is his bad for not doing it
As a leffen hater I'll keep my opinion to myself 😂
Leffen is grime king and it's not even CLOSE
Still respect the fox GOAT tho
Another banger video 😎
Awful TOs call
I don't play smash bros, i'm not a proffessional in fighting game or anything else, i have no idea of how much it affected Leffen (haven't watched that part of the video yet) but for me the decision to replay or not the match is as clear as diamond. The rules stated that the fix was to be used and was the standart for the tournament. It wasn't activated in this match therefore the rules weren't matched so the battle result doesn't count and it have to be redone properly.
Exactly 10 minutes
Bro you really gotta think more about what it means to take the Lord's name in vain.
good vid
Nah I think Losers Finals Evo 2013 is the most controversial match
The TO's billed the event as the first major event to use UCF. It was their responsibility to make sure everything was running properly. Should've been run back, but at the request of the TO's, not a player.
very lame but should have been replayed. surprised that is a rare opinion.
conclusion: leffen is wrong
Was this really more controversial than every Puff ICs set?
Leffen was clearly not playing well, he didn't trust his shield drops - and instead jumped through platforms. Video should be remade imo?
Shouldn't have been replayed. But I'm also a massive leffen hater so...
hey
How did you make this entire video then **not** show the situations the dashbacks and sheikd drops failed?? By your numbers its only a little over 10 incidents. The situations the failures happened in is **vastly** more important then the number or ratio. Very dissapointing video as i didnt learn anything new that would have changed my opinion.
Hey
Haven't watched yet, I'm betting it's IMO should be replayed
Lame, def should not have been replayed
I think an important aspect of this a lot of people miss is how much feeling off even a little bit affects fox, especially when you don't know exactly what the problem is. Leffen obviously knew something was wrong which is why he did the controller check, but especially considering how much people disliked him at the time it makes sense that he wouldn't say anything unless he was absolutely sure there was a problem which is hard to tell when you're also focusing on a difficult set. Just that slight delay in decision making or hesitancy to do something after it went wrong last time absolutely effects you even when it's not obvious, especially in a matchup where you need to be scared of dying at any percent to a single grab anywhere on the stage.
It's also worth noting that the TOs of the event have gone or record saying they decided it should be replayed before leffen tweet and that has nothing to do with the end verdict, people just love hating leffen so they pin it on him
The way leffen plays as if it isn’t ucf (dash forward before dash back, jump ff instead of shield drop)
Makes the conspiracy part of my brain think he turned ucf off for insurance lmao.
As questionable as his movement was, its definitely not evidence that he turned ucf off on its own.
Does anyone have any explanation for why UCF was turned off in the first place?
Hax$ and 1.03 is gonna save Melee
Explain?
imo leffen is a terrible human being
hey
hey