Breaking the Rules: How Game of Thrones Has Changed
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ต.ค. 2024
- AMAZING TIE-IN VIDEO: "Why I Love Game of Thrones: A Formula For Perfect TV" by Loverboy Media: • WHY I LOVE GAME OF THR...
When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die. Unless you don't. Then you're fine.
Help us Make more Stuff and get lots of dope rewards over on the Make Stuff Patreon! / makestuffstudios
Watch Game of Thrones! www.hbo.com/or...
Check out our stuff!
Twitter: / johnathonoscar
Instagram: / makestuffstudios
Facebook: / gomakestuff
Email: MakeStuffJohn@gmail.com
Hey, now go watch our buddy's ****amazing**** Game of Thrones vid, too!! "WHY I LOVE GAME OF THRONES: A Formula For Perfect TV" th-cam.com/video/C1kmjsZmSig/w-d-xo.html
I noticed how at 5:59 you shifted to damn instead of whatever the fuck I want.
Or maybe I am just projecting what I wanted you say in that moment.
SO what of the writer failing to finish the novels so why not the hollywood do their best storytelling?
13:19 Yeah about that big payoff chief....
Changed your mind, yet?
Please do another one for the last season, we'll watch
It's not coincidence that Tyrion, little finger, and Varys all became lame after the show ran out of book material.
That's probably why he stopped writing because he didn't have proper finalities to his major characters.
@@brettreason484 If you're referring to George and the books, he's had the end point in mind for his main characters for years. It's probably all the additional characters and plot points that have slowed his writing down to a crawl.
yeah because they’re not fighters. right now politics are nowhere near what they were before
Its gotten to a point in the show where these political based characters aren’t needed as much because it’s pretty fucking simple, the dead are coming and they have to stop them, it wouldn’t make sense if Tyrion and Varys waffled on about politics when legit all there is left to do is win the fucking war against undead enemies. You can’t predict what they will do because they aren’t human anymore. I do agree that Littlefinger was killed off way too quickly, but I think he’ll be back somehow
@@princeprocrastinate6485 hes to busy getting blowies from enamored fans
Season 1 Tyrion: "Never forget what you are, the rest of the world will not. Wear it like armour and it can never be used to hurt you."
Season 9 Tyrion: "I have balls and you dont."
Season 1 Jon Snow: Everyone loves him and gives him whatever he wants....but one guy doesn't like him.
Season 9 Jon Snow: Everyone loves him and gives him whatever he wants.
Character growth!
Season 1 Little Finger: "Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or the gods, or love....illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is."
Season 7 Little Finger: "Oh Sensa n Area pls no kill me!111! I lub u 2 much crying emoji crying emoji"
Season 8 u mean?
Gf
@@xeno1912 yea season 8 lmao im thinking of league
GOT was once a meaty steak, now it's just popcorn.
Best. Description. Evurh.
And now, the corn kind of forgot about popping.
@@friendlybanana4960 we're down to just the kernels in the bottom of the bag
@@alecross5255 u eat it anyway but it gets stuck in your teeth
Popcorn is delicious though.
THIS. This is EXACTLY what's in my head. Seasons 6-8 aren't BAD necessarily. But what made GoT so damn good was that it was genre breaking. There was no plot armor. Anyone and everyone was in danger. I'll still watch till the end, but I'm definitely not as in love with the show as I was before.
Colie Braun But there was always going to be plot armour, even in the books. Daenarys, Tyrion, Jon, Cersei, Jamie, Sansa, Arya were all always going to make it all the way even if GRRM had written more books. Remember he told the writers how the story will end. I agree the show is different now compared to the first seasons and in many ways it is also worse. GRRM is taking ages to write now because it is not easy to conclude everything. The show literally has to be more fast paced or it would go on forever.
Beaver Ones no, even GRRM doesn’t know how it ends.. He’s a “gardener”, he doesn’t plan the story ahead, he follows its natural flow - that’s what makes the books so interesting: u feel the books have stakes bc they follow truth!!! Being able to say from the get go who will survive doesn’t follow truth, it follows conventional storytelling! So Marting might have said (when asked) that he had in mind to let certain ppl live, but if whilst writing he cannot make it feel natural and real, he’ll just let them die - cuz THAT is the story he’s been writing so far!..
I thought this last episode in particular was bad. It just felt like the antithesis of everything GoT used to be. It now feels obvious who is going to die next and it’s disappointing.
@@redcd3743 I just think youre wrong.
@S F I didn´t say that, until the end doesn´t mean they survive and live on.
what if you dont get a big payoff? What if you get an anticlimatic finale of someone jumping from a bush to end the war?
Well, then it'd all be fine because it'd be subverting the expectations or something. The real payoff was inside us all the time.
Pfft, they'd never do something stupid like that
the payoff was the years you waited
Maybe the real payoff was the friends we made along the way
Lmao, these answers are killing me.
Haha made me laugh that.
"In season 8 I can't wait for the payoff"
Isn't he just going to love episode 3
Yeah, he maybe should've waited with this video so he could see just how bad it would get
So, buddy... How is it going? Enjoying S8?
In the words of Jaime and tywin ''you'll never be as good''. ''Well as long as I'm better than everyone else I suppose it doesn't matter''
Just found an underrated comment in an underrated video...
Dj hotdawg god tier comment
fucking love this.
It's not better than everything else anymore. Better than most, sure.
@@YumiSumire read when this was posted there was nothing better than it episode 1&2 of season 8 was better than everything else on tv by far
I guess you didn't expect the night king and all the undead to be.. erm.. dead, by episode 3. Also the man that represents ice & fire didn't deal the final blow.
This is even more true after season 8 episode 3. One of the stupidest episodes I’ve ever seen. Of course the effects and acting and crew efforts were sensational
True... I reopen this video everyday after the e03 to see someone making this point.
I love arya. But god damn I cringed at how they killed off the NK.
I just cant fucking live with the fact that this episode happened. Ruined me
Pranav Totala yep. I found an article which gets it 100% spot on.
www.google.com/amp/s/www.gamespot.com/amp-articles/game-of-thrones-season-8-episode-3-review-out-with/1100-6466520/
Michael Archbold I agree 100% . Have a read of this www.google.com/amp/s/www.gamespot.com/amp-articles/game-of-thrones-season-8-episode-3-review-out-with/1100-6466520/
So correct and you can see it so painfully with how they wrap up what was supposed to be the greatest threat in the entire series with arya jumping from nowhere. Setup and payoff to the T.
Not really the NK was Setup for 7 Seasons and he just died with no pay off.
@@E538-b6p payoff os tgat we still have 3 episodes left. One for buildup, second for battle/fight for the throne and third to mop up the mess left after the battle/fight.
One of many things I"ve noticed going wrong is that large armies appear out of nowhere to surprise another large army. That cannot happen. It just cannot. Thousands of men and horses traveling through even a sparsely inhabited area cannot remain hidden for long. Real armies send out scouts in every direction--and nothing will set off alarms faster than one of those scouts not coming back.
Plus, you know, fleets of sailing ships knowing where other ships and armies are ahead of time then moving at hypersonic speeds (Lannisport and Dragonstone have a whole continent between them--sailing from one area to the other is like sailing from Brazil to California without the Panama Canal).
The problem is the Game of Thrones is supposed to be seen as exactly that--a game, with horrifying stakes and precise rules, but a game compared to the real and terrible issues presenting humankind. At this point, we'd all be happy with Ramsay Bolton sitting on the Iron Throne as long as there would still be people to rule. Or we should be. Because we all know in our heart of hearts, some deus ex machina is going to save the world of men. The only real source of power is that the makers of the series know in very general terms how the story is supposed to end--which means a stark (sorry), melancholy sort of victory that will cost far, far, far too much. At least I hope so.
I've started reading the books, I just finished book 2, and they always send out scouts, always, everyone. It's such a shame that such amazing and realistically detailed source material was so heartlessly butchered by those hacks.
After rewatching 5 through 7 before season 8 came I realized there's a shit ton of deus ex machina rescues. I didn't notice it the first time watching because I was caught up in the thrill of watching. It's more apparent once you rewatch though.
i think its more apparent when binge watching one season after the other, i noticed first watch as the earlier season without deus ex machina was absent and thus noticed the change.
Its funny that in the firsts seasons, especially in retrospect, not only the audience but even the characters make like little pauses expecting the Deus Ex Machina rescue that never cames, and then "yeap, thats it, dead".
The PBS completely forgo that kind of grittiness.
Judy Apelsin Didn’t black water have a deus ex machina?
Tywin saving kings landing
Stannis saving nights watch
1-4 had them too
@@sb7798 thing is tywin being able save kings landing was only possible because of the tyrell army which the show had already established that the lannisters knew they needed them which is why they sent littlefinger to negotiate with them. So that at least didnt come out of completely nowhere since they'd spent several episodes showing littlefinger with the tyrells
Post s8ep3 this video could not be more right about spectacle vs logic.
It was S7E6 when I really lost hope. The two years gave me a little bit but D&D destroyed that.
I didnt check the date before I watched and I was just listening and assumed his reference of the dragon scene had to be s8e3. Sad how much worse it is now than then
Post s8ep5... Smh.
Never laughed as hard at anything on youtube as I did at "listen up fuckdick"
A good analogy for the last two seasons of Game of Thrones would be if Lord of the Rings suddenly became a gritty ultra realistic story. The lesson to be learned is you need to have consistent rules in a fictional universe. There is nothing with sometimes breaking rules. The problem comes when most of the rules are disregarded suddenly. It just leads to confusion as why has the story just suddenly changed out of nowhere.
True. I don't think it was intentional though, but due to the showrunners and their writers being nothing like George RR Martin. Their mistake was in not waiting for GRRM to first finish his book series before adopting it for TV.
I wouldn't say it's just confusion- it just comes off as bad writing, and it takes the audience out of the suspension of disbelief. Consistency means the reader expectations are never betrayed in the wrong way, where they're left feeling- 'that could have been done better'. You can write a ruthless narrative where you kill characters left and right- but if it's executed properly and there's enough pieces sensibly laid in the viewer's plain sight before hand- they'll enjoy it. Later game of thrones isn't doing that anymore, there's nothing surprising in a good way, and that's disappointing because the spectacle alone was not why Asoiaf and GOT was great.
@@Redchinesestones I shouldn't have used the word rules. A better way of putting it is stories should have constant themes which connect the various narratives. These themes are not so much hard rules but something which makes the narrative feel connected. One of the main themes of Game of Thrones is its focus on realistically portraying a fantasy world. Despite all the twists and turns when you read Game of Thrones you expect to experience a realistic interpretation of a fantasy world. That is why it feels off when Game of Thrones embraces many fantasy cliches.
Maybe “Make Shit” should be a secondary channel lol because this was absolutely hilarious. 👍🏼
This was a really, _really_ , good video essay. I haven't seen your channel until now but now that I have, I'm definitely adding you to my subscriptions. Great job on this video, it feels *very* high quality.
After watching the latest episode you couldn't be more right.
Lol, the Night King had 7 seasons of set up with zero pay off
@@L3monstaand yet it wasn't realistic. At all.
Yea up to this episode it was still decent but this episode fucked up all the build up and the Night King became the most wasted antagonist in Tv history
This is the best articulation I have ever seen of my feelings regarding GOT. Congrats, you have been granted Highgarden
I'd consider season 5 to be one of the post-book seasons. It's when they were diverging from the books, and tied up book threads in incredibly bad ways (off-screen Blackfish death etc)
Mark Finnegan Blackfish was in season 6. Season 5 was based mostly on the most recent two books, which is exactly why it’s the weakest season.
Daniel MacDonald season 5 is better than 6 and 7
@@danielmacdonald9287 Season 7 is by far the worst season.
@@danielmacdonald9287 Season 5 is an incredibly rushed version of books 4 and 5 which is why it was so iffy.... book 3 was literally two whole seasons, and then books 4 and 5 are crammed into one.
Books 4 and 5 have some brilliant material in them. Season 5 did a very poor job adapting it, they were fairly faithful with maybe one or two plot lines from AFFC and ADWD, apart from that the rest they just did their own thing with or didn't even bother to use. The TV show would've been a lot better off if they had gone about adapting books 4 and 5 more competently, and would have run for at least 8 full 10 episode seasons, probably 9. Oh well, shit happens.
EP 3 SPOILERS!!!
I'm actually personally rooting for Climate Change, I mean the White Walkers to win, so Oop it's dead. It was murdered.
the lesson of the show is that climate change deniers are right and short term profit gain always wins
@@fullmetalpwn lol
The fact that a creator can be making videos that are this incredible at this level of consistency and NOT be at *minimum* 100k subs is why TH-cam is broken.
Dude, this was even better than I could have imagined it would be. It's phenomenal 🙌
5:07 This is a really fascinating point. The way the writing goes out of its way here to deliberately eschew Chekhov’s Gun, a rule of storytelling so fundamental that we become accustomed to everything having a payoff, is part of why the death of Robb and Catelyn is so effective and unexpected.
Hell yeah and you go: "But, but... He had this awesome trap prepared and was so close to final victory!" :(( Baaaam, its gone!
Yes even the Kings landing explosion :o
Oof
Aaaannnd, the white walkers are donezo and there was no real payoff because actually the throne really is the real game I guess, maybe?
Wow, thank you for explaining why I'm just not as invested in this show anymore! I'm still watching it, of course, to see how it ends, but I find myself not caring as much about the story and characters. GoT is still a spectacular show, but that's just it - it's pure spectacle. Gorgeous to look at it, and superficially thrilling, but not much underneath. Even the dialogue feels cringey now, and characters I once loved now just frustrate me. Ah well! I loved your video, such fantastic points!
i feel the same way. i miss characters being punished for their mistakes... this show was so different from everything else, so it's hard seeing it go in another direction.
i have to agree about season 7 but so far i liked season 8 alot more(writing and characters) and i am hyped for episode 3 should be the best battle in the series.
half the feels I get from the show just come from the music lol
I have the same feelings but mostly because there is nothing explained. I don't understand why some characters do the things they do and somd things just seem so illogical.
Things that made me mad about the last seasons:
Tyrion is a punk.
White walker hunt with the magnificent 7.
Arya being annoying and OP.
Cersei is just a mustache twirling villain.
Everything is rushed.
Lynna mormont is corny, I'm sorry.
Littlefingers death was so underwhelming
Just today I was with my friend talking about GOT and the fact that I kind of stopped caring about it after season 5-6 but i didn't know the exact reasons why - and after watching this i realize what had changed.
Same here. I've read the books, so I thought that was the reason why I didn't care as much. But it's clear to me now that it is the writing that doesn't interest me. Man, I can't wait for George to finish that damned book.
Would anyone also mention the death of peter baelysh! So silly way for him to die.
He was shown so sharp that he would see his death from a mile, but couldnt see the sed drama of arya?
As an indian, this looks more like bollywood drama than GOT!
i think sansa in the books will be instrumental in his death and he definitely wont see it coming.. he will train her in his footsteps and not realise he is digging his own grave that way. sansa will retain the lessons of her father - no way she will recognise how evil littlefinger is and still allow him to live and sow chaos throughout the realm
I don't know what this channel is about but this video was grade a content. subscribed.
same! just pure underrated video
I'm a simple man. John uploads. I quit my job, punch my boss in the mouth, steal a car and crash into someone's nice, quiet garage in order to click and watch.
I...I don't think you need to be doing that.
Those are the rules
Boy, that escalated quickly.
I mean, that REALLY got out of control fast.
I thought I was the only one.
I am blown away by the talent & polish in this video. It was riveting & it has made me loathe to watch mediocre text-filled videos.
Fully agree on the lessons GoT (could have) taught us. I'm idealistic like that that art can be more then just entertainment. I don't like it when people disregard deep stories as "entertainment", or call it that without even thinking about it.
Though it's more true for later GoT than the earlier.
Episode 3 of season 8 just destroyed the story for good right?
Unless Bran sets everyone up to bring back good old days of children.
Yup it did.
@NorthernLights Well the very first minutes of the first episode teased us those zombie so...a waste for many fans
D&D: We're altering the rules. Pray we do not alter them further.
NOW I WANT HIM TO MAKE A VIDEO ON S8 E3
Fantastic video! I am with you 100% on all of this. You put my vague worried feelings into words better than I ever could!
That's the best anyone can do in analysing a show.
Well done, homeboy!
Game of Thrones was about to become one of the fantasy world classics, now it's just another Marvel / Disney: Star Wars type of thing.
I think the first few seasons will always be classics, as will the original books by George RR Martin. GoT will probably be remembered for being groundbreaking at first, then gradually worse as they ran out of source material. But still, all-in-all a classic. It will be remembered for its good seasons.
The unfortunate thing that we have to keep in mind is as the show declines in quality and betrays its original intent, the audience gets larger and larger. Check the numbers. Crap sells.
"The best part about that setup and payoff structure is that you get a big payoff" - I bet he regrets that statement now after episode 3.
I mean, it was definitely a BIG payoff. Just not necessarily a good one, lol.
@@MakeStuffStudios Why? Would the predictable Jon vs Night King super hero sword duel have been better?
@@SoLazy100 Considering Jon's whole arc is about ultimately saving humanity and recognising the real threat to Westeros and the world and doing everything he can to stop the threat of the White Walkers (and the whole Azor Azhai thing)... yes. It's called seeding and good story telling.
@@SoLazy100 A year late, but I agree completely with you, ever since I watched that episode live. Jon versus Night King would've been too predictable, typical fantasy trope like LOTR (which I love) but GOT isn't LOTR. Martin has deliberately separated ASOIAF from typical fantasy so I welcomed that choice. Even if some dislike it, you can't say in was truly out of sync with Martin's style. Martin will have his final say in the novels anyway.
After today's abortion of an episode, I can say this video is 100% accurate.
Opinion now?
@@turnipswillneverhurtyou3934 big oof.
Ive watched only 3 minutes of this video and this channel already has my sub
This is probably the best video essay I've ever seen. Great pace, amount of humour, fitting music, good points of view and you did a great job at making the videos in to little chapters with great slides and introductions to each segment. 10/10
That was fantastic. For two or three years I have been trying to explain, and reading other people try to explain, why the writing in the show is not what it was in the early seasons. It is obvious that George’s source material ran out, but the exact nature of the change that that led to has been far harder to pin down. You just did an amazing job. Particularly the first of the three repercussions you set out. The difference is that the outcomes of the show’s conflicts are no longer determined by ‘real politic’ - who is the best strategist, likability be damned; but rather by set up and pay off - who the viewer is supposed to like or dislike and then them getting their just deserts (after a narrowly escaped disaster). Brilliant analysis.
This is the first time I have come across your channel. I will be sticking around to check it out.
Excellent stuff. Massively agree, disappointed by the latest season for three reasons you highlight but I still enjoy it
Been waiting for your take on this. Your swear game is insanely funny
"It won't feel like they earned the throne." 9:07
... hit the nail on the head there
I love the editing and everything you have to say in this video. You nail why I have problem with the recent seasons, but still watch the show. I tell myself I'm watching because I want to know how it ends.
Thanks!! And yeah, writing this vid and coming to terms with what the show is now has really helped me enjoy the newer stuff a lot, actually. It's pretty much become R-rated Lord of the Rings, which is still rad as hell in a different way. So I'd def recommend going into this last season with those shifted expectations, should make it way easier to enjoy 👍👍
Make Stuff - that is an excellent way of looking at it
I really think this channel will blow up in the next few months. Soooo underrated
i would honestly say season 1-4 when George was apart of the production of the show then post season 5 Geroge left the show to write his books. Season 5/6 had some major beats but still fundamentally different I mean Dorne plotline is the greatest example.
I really really love this video and it articulates so well what happened with the writing shift and how that’s affected the show as a whole! Also the structure and production of this video was excellent!
Petyr Baelysh should have won the Game of Thrones. He was the best at the game
Best doesn’t mean anything in GOT.. or at least it didn’t 🤷♀️😂
Go watch the video "littlefinger is the protagonist" truly think he's still alive and maybe will win the game
Mr0meed
I doubt it. But nothing is impossible. I would surely love to see that happen.
Yeah but past seeing dude and sisterly love you know... just take it alright just
Thats
Thats what u get shitfuck hes dead because arya kul
he makes the mistake of teaching sansa his ways though (in the books at least), so that is what will cost him his head i think (in the books).
OMG You were able to describe in just perfect detail what I felt but was never able to put my words on it. Perfect job. Thank you.
God damn, this editing is too good. Well done, my friend.
They just made Cersei look like a genius, shame they ruined it
Knowing that this was filmed before the mess that was 8x03 aired...poor guy
Lol, this didn't come as a shock to anyone with both brain halves intact. On the contrary, it was entirely expected. The only surprising thing is the fans' reaction. I do not understand why they all changed their mind now...
This is exactly what I feel like.
The show is still good.
But in comparison to before it's shit.
That's how good it was before.
Michi Hb
Seasons 1-4: 9.5/10
Season 5: 7.5/10
Season 6: 8/10
Season 7: 7/10
Set up/pay off without any regard to realism means absolutely nothing to me. It’s just a visual spectacle now.
I love how ads are still showing white walkers like they are scary, lol they didn’t even fucking swing a sword in there final episode hahahaha
Well...we got no payoff. Winter came and went quick
Blame George RR Martin for taking 20 years to finish two books
It is actually 10 years.
Why have I never seen this channel before. It's amazing.
This video is really well done. With out taking sides, you present your argument clearly. While simultaneously giving humor and an overall narrative that is consistent throughout the essay.
Well done good sir.
I came here after s08e03. I feel so sorry for your hopes about the 8th season.
Thank you for such a good video. Perfectly outlined what I knew to be true about the show, but have struggled to articulate to others when we talk about the show
I sent a message to someone saying
"i'm so excited
my fav channel on youtube did an episode of game of thrones"
and man, it's so true, i just didn't realize how ubiquitous that my adoration of your channel was, but yeah, you're my favorite. even if you say things on occasion i may not 100% agree with (everything is personal taste, not being a dick in how i'm saying that), i love the amount of passion you have for things, and how deep you get into them, and how much you motivate me. for instance, i watched your video on Saga despite having never read it, and it was between your absolutely lovely video on the depth of its morals and storytelling and overarching narrative, and my team lead at work telling me to read it that i became super pumped and binged it. thank you for everything you do, and all the hard work you put into everything that means something to you. it makes so much better content than putting out videos for the sake of it, it makes me get absorbed into it.
cheers!
Based on 8x03, the only thing GoT will be profound for is that climate change is a joke and not THAT threatening to humanity, and that in the end, being safe and trope ridden is all that matters because that is what makes money and drives entertainment.
I laughed out loud about 10 times during this video. Glad I stumbled upon it. Good stuff...I mean..$h!t.
I've been sharing this until my thumbs bleed because A) it hits the nail on the head and B) it's explained beautifully. I wish I would've seen it before S8E3 because I would have lowered my expectations accordingly. Subscribed.
Watching this post S8E3 makes this video even more relevant. Next time I have an frustrating discussion with anyone who justifies the post-book seasons, I will simply forward this video
Not really. There was no payoff in S8E3. The Nk was Setup for 7 seasons and he just died. Arya just jumped out of nowhere and killed him. There was no payoff for his hole arc. And Jon Snow the one that was said to be the prince that was Nothing did Nothing. He was the one who had the biggest Connection to the WW and he didn't killed a single one of the WW.
As he said just because something is or isn't written in a Setup payoff Format doesn't mean that it is good or bad.
When I saw this video in my recommendations, I was thinking it was gonna be another video essay which just bashes the writing of the later seasons, I'm glad I watched your video all the way through. Very well thought out and very fair criticisms of the show without being biased. Very glad to see quality content on a platform where quality is often dying. Good job man, subscribed!
One of the major failure of storytelling is the same they did in StarTrek, when they created the Borg Queen that, if destroyed, destroys the whole threat of Borg zombies. The problem with hive minds (collectivism) is, that there is not a single individuum you can single out and convince and you turn the story. You have to fight all of them and that's what is making them so threatening. That's what is making the whole thing so evil and so vile.
The moment they introduced this Night King was just like: here, you just kill this man and all is over. But that's not the nature of evil. And that's really the very important message the writers fucked up here. They fucked it up with StarTrek, they fucked it up with GoT and in reality, without that important lessen, we'll all die for that. Thank you GoT.
Modern script writers just don't get it. Or they get it and intentionally hide it; they are the Whitewalkers.
RR Martin gets it. And he will finish them off.
My thoughts exactly! I felt like the newer seasons were lacking something that made the first ones so damn brilliant. Thanks for spelling it out in such an eloquent way. Subscribed.
2:24
Me: Say it, I know you want to
Three seconds later: Ah there we go
I was upset about this and last season, some things bothered me and now I know that in not alone! Super video!
You're not alone, friend. We all grieve over the sorry mess that GoT has become, post-books.
Never heard of Make Stuff or Make Shit but I’m happy TH-cam finally suggested something that was funny but still cool and interesting
This production now fantastic. I'm saying: FANTASTIC!! (screaming out loud). The content, the pacing, the transitioning of text... The silent pauses. Marvelous! Thank you! You have a subscription for life 💯
Seeing this in my feed made my day just so much better! :)
Your analysis is spot on, but I think the problem is far simpler than all that. You are examining the symptoms of a more fundamental reality. The whole "Setup => Payoff" meme in entertainment is tailored toward the premise that popularity equates to quality entertainment. It is a technique designed to dumb down the content and story in order to appeal to the broadest audience possible including all those who are too shallow, unmotivated, or uneducated to decipher a "Cause => Effect" approach. "Setup => Payoff" employs visual and emotional elements in spite of logic and reason to progress a story using milestones from beginning to end. "Cause => Effect" is an intellectual appeal that requires logic and reason to uncover the story as you go and forces you to decide your own emotional response to it. The underlying motivation of the authors to choose one approach over the other is what has driven the change in the show. The whole "Setup => Payoff" vs. "Cause => Effect" approach is a only a symptom of the underlying philosophical differences between the authors which are driving the change in the writing of the show.
What is apparent is that the authors view their audience in a way that is absolutely different between them. GRRM assumes everyone is very intelligent, well read, logical, and reasoned people. It is clear he labors endlessly to ensure his work will rise to challenge them. He believes himself to be lesser than his audience and must overcome this by working harder and longer to perfect his story for them. For GRRM every detail matters, and he uses them to drive and flesh out the overall storyline. The show runners are the polar opposite. They assume nobody in existence has the wits to tie their own shoes correctly, except themselves. The audience is either too stupid or too lazy (or both) to be challenged by anything not concocted in 20 minutes or less. Story quality is mostly derived during post production using 3D software to create compelling visual milestones. The quality of acting derives from their ability to silently emote well timed moods, rather than from them interpreting and delivering compelling dialog with regard to a deep and thorough character development. For the show runners, no detail matters, only the overall sequence of milestones is important to them.
With two nearly opposite attitudes, it should not be very surprising that the results reflect it.
What specifically has changed about the writing?
In order to draw in more fans, it has been dumbed down using visual and emotional appeals to the audience, in place of intellectual challenges requiring logical reasoning. The fundamental difference is with how the authors view the audience. GRRM assumes they are intelligent logical reasoning people capable of deciphering a complex puzzle. Show runners view their audience as a giant mass of brain dead ants clamoring for sugar cubes and trails back to the nest. Evidently the show runners believe they come closer to becoming William Shakespeare by simply filling larger theaters with more and more bodies. The ability to think is wholly irrelevant. The volume of applause is more valuable than how enthusiastic it is.
How do those changes potentially affect your enjoyment of the show?
It depends why you watch it. For me, it is obviously more enjoyable when the author considers me a thinking capable person and challenges me to put my logic and reasoning to use. However, if you are more entertained by visual and emotional sugar cubes, which allow you to lay back and give your brain its needed rest at the end of a long hard day, then you ought to be satisfied with the changes delivered by D&D. Frankly, this is a perfectly reasonable means of entertaining yourself, and one I often employ myself. But I argue if all you want is a woodie, well you can get that anywhere and everywhere on screen, and so I want access to the other extreme and this show was not the place for that. It was a great idea and it's a shame it got consumed. Still, its existence is a good sign that times could be looking up. Better than half of it was a significant improvement over what we've gotten used to. It has certainly shown, in my opinion, just how handicapped the screenwriting industry is under the hood when it comes to breaking patterns.
In the end I think it is a classic case of arrogance. GRRM showcases little of it and as a result conveys a respect for his audience in his writing. The show runners appear completely arrogant believing their audience consists almost entirely of those far less accomplished than themselves, and therefore must have the story details spoon fed to them like a kindergarten class being guided through a fire drill. Admittedly, the differences between the two mediums (book vs. screen) accounts for some of the difference in the attitudes demanded of creators. GRRM never needs to worry as much about time or a budget, while for D&D the budget is the single most paramount constraint and time is a really big deal. Having said that however, it is noteworthy to observe that GRRM's stuff translated pretty damn well onto screen. I'm not so sure you could say the same for how D&D's stuff might translate back into the books. GRRM's stuff is better because he expends the effort necessary to make it better. He does this because he knows he must. And because he can. D&D's stuff is worse because they don't expend the effort necessary. They do this because they know they know it's not required, especially when there exists a cheaper way to fill a seat. And because they are more externally restrained...much more.
GRRM may win an award for his work, although I'd bet he never expected to while he was creating it. D&D are almost guaranteed to win multiple awards, and I'd wager they expected to all along way before they ever created a thing, only wondering what the final tally will be. And I think this goes a long way to explaining also why screen entertainment in general has become so simplified and the "Setup => Payoff" meme has so widely proliferated over the years. D&D do it the way they do because that's the way it is done and has been done and how they were trained to do it and what they are rewarded for doing. They are robotic in that regard. Screen entertainment has been pandering to the lowest common denominator for so long that it's come to reckon everyone is low and common. Hollywood is elitist, arrogant, superior, and preachy. GRRM is not from there, D&D are. And how they regard the ordinary people of their audience reflects plainly in their works.
I think that was a little bit harsh, but otherwise I love your take on it. The reason I watched the show was for the world of Game of Thrones to play out, not to have the writers give me the equivalent of an Avengers movie. I'm shocked there are writers strikes in Hollywood, who would pay them more to write stuff like this?
Honestly, I don't buy it - at least partially I don't. Yes, maybe superficial writing choices may have their cause in GRRMs absence, BUT:
I do believe that the shift towards a different set of rules is established by the characters themselves. Ned Stark himself says: "When the long night comes, the lone wolf dies and the pack survives."
That means, that basically the rules we are introduced to are the rules of summer - and the closer the Long Night and the Night King are getting, the greater is the change of the rules - although you see a lot of people not recognizing that (e.g. Littlefinger, but also many of the Northmen). Strangely enough, Lady Sansa has been schooled by the great players of Summer, but quickly learns that a new game is ahead.
The biggest rule has been broken by GRRM himself: Jon Snow came back. He neglected the requirements of leadership as a Lord Commander and got stabbed for it. And he came back. He is the incarnation of the new game. He was horribly dumb at the game of Summer, but he's a visionairy for the Winter.
But also, Cersei is breaking the rules! She thinks very highly of herself, but isn't strategic at all: She has brought herself into a position where she has to sacrifices every ounce of her personality and humanity in order to stay one step ahead: She bangs the pirat, she's guarded by a zombie and healed by a Necromancer. She has lost any humanity is only living for power. She has turned herself into a Disney villain. Because that is what playing the game also can do to you: You "win", which means you don't die, but you're not alive either: You are a hollow being - maybe just like the Night King.
And Daenerys is learning from all of them. She had ideals which made her struggle with the Game of Fire, and we will see how the dice will fall for her.
Anyway, I loved your vid because it made me go down this specific path of thinking a bit further :)
I one hundred percent agree that the rules of the game within the show are justifiably changing! It's honestly what I've found the most engaging about the newest seasons (and has been consistently engaging ever since Dany's dragons hatched). In fact, I think that's exactly what makes the show such a great parallel to global issues like climate change. And that's not at all where my problems lie.
It's the fact that the show is betraying its own rules of *realism* that has hurt my experience with the show. Just because the Night King is headed south doesn't mean it somehow rationalizes Jaime charging straight at a dragon, the sinking to the bottom of a river, then climbing out totally fine further down the river with there being no attempt at finding him from Dany's army (and if they just assumed he was dead, the Tyrion's bizarrely cool with it). Or the timing working out so that Gendry runs back to the Wall, gets a raven out to Dany, then Dany shows up at their exact location beyond the Wall *at the exact moment* the group was about to die. Shifting dynamics within the narrative doesn't justify increasingly frequent plot conveniences (most of which have nothing to do with the shifting rules of the game) within that narrative, especially when the show prided itself on a comparatively astonishing lack of plot conveniences.
I'm cool with Jon coming back from the dead because the show and books took the proper time to set that up as part of the show's reality (specifically with Beric and Lady Stoneheart). It's the same reason I don't care about the whole "laser blasts can't arch in space!" complaint I've heard a million times about The Last Jedi when Star Wars had already clearly demonstrated that the rules of laser physics don't even remotely matter in its established reality.
But to suddenly go back those rules of the reality specifically established in GoT - especially when that reality heavily factored into its commentary on the real world - feels to me not entirely dissimilar to if the upcoming Battle of Winterfell was suddenly a musical sequence with singing and dancing. I'd fucking love for that to happen because it would be totally absurd and amazing and a historical moment in storytelling, hahah, but it would undeniably hurt the tone and gravity and reality-paralleling moral of the show. It would contradict the established reality.
All that said, this is merely me expressing why ***my personal*** enjoyment of the show has taken a bit of a hit, and only in that specific area, hopefully helping other people experiencing the same reaction understand what the issue might be, and come to terms with what the show has become, and therefore be able to enjoy it a bit more or just move on from it. This is not at all my claiming that my interpretation is the absolute truth and your feelings are wrong, Because I'm very much not. (And like I said, I agree with pretty much everything you just said!)
THIS. So. This. You've hit the nail on the head why the transition from book-based show to post-book show felt so jarring to me. Thank you for this acute analysis!
I haven't watched Game of Thrones, but I just can't not watch a Make Stuff video...
Make Shit!!*
This was fair and even handed, and I'm glad you can still love the show while recognising that something changed.
This was amazing, I think we all felt like you but just didn´t notice or didn´t knew how to describe it. Great video!
You NEED to make a follow up video after the last episode
Littlefinger is the only person who deserves to win the throne. If the theory of him faking his death with the help of the faceless men comes to fruition then I will be satisfied. Anything else is going to leave me underwhelmed.
Woah, I've never even heard that theory, that's extremely interesting. He was absolutely at the top of my list for ending up on the throne.
@@MakeStuffStudios I'm not sure if that's sarcasm?😂 If not check out Neo's youtube channel on how little finger faked his death. It would be the coolest twist ever and fits his character of being the most clever on the show.
th-cam.com/video/cFoCt1PxPCs/w-d-xo.html
No, that's actually really interesting, I'll check that out! Thanks man!
Not after the last episode. It was a soap opera. "If you think this will have a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention". The writers completely lack the feeling for GRRM's world. Heck, they lack the feeling for good TV. They don't understand that the characters, their motivations, were always the crucial thing in the series, which made them feel like they were actually alive. If it was only LF I would reconsider my opinion, but they did it with Varys/Tyrion too, so I guess the ending will be a huge disappointment for everyone with brains.
Seasons 1-4: Subvert expectasions in a masterfully written way
Season 5-7: Based on Payoff with ocassional subversion
Season 8: Noithngs makes sense because is subversions for the sake of subversion and there is not payoff anymore.
This! I can never explain to my friends whats the problem!
Niji Mujino yeah, are used to think that some people just can’t see it.
But really, after seeing this video, it just seems that they are very happy with the set up/pay off scenarios. Regardless of how unrealistic they are.
Welp, what you know.
As of Season 8 Episode 3: "The Long Night", you have never been this right in your entire life.
The season 5 wasn't really based on books anymore. That was the first post-book season, or better yet, a transition season.
Some aspects of it were not from the books like stannis's and jon's death but the rest of it was for the most part derived from the book
Zohaib Ajmal They changed the most important things. Stannis' storyline, Jon's arc, Mance's death, Littlefinger's plan, Doran Martell's plan... These are all things that will have a huge payoff in the next book but were mostly cut out or altered from the show to the point of it becoming unrecognisable from the book story.
Yeah, a transition season, that is exactly it. It covered a time period that is still covered by the books, but started to diverge radically in order to set up D&D’s entirely independent post-book story.
*It won't feel like they earned the throne*
Bran: YOU'RE GODDAMN RIGHT!
Lolol. Subbed. You’re hilarious. “Assbutts”. 😂😂. Also, episode 5 was just....just silly. This whole season actually, how can the white walkers, after 8 freaking seasons, be done like that. Such a let down.
0:37 - Yay! Skyrim chest!
this is some quality shIT right here
The amount of effort these videos take love them!
You! Yes, you! I need you to go MAKE SHIT! mode once again with this series now we are getting close to the finale...
I bloody love when you upload
Your editing skills are so good, you deserve more attention
You should make it a companion channel "Make Shit" for the grown ups and "Make Stuff" for the kiddies.
This is the first video of yours I have watched by the way, so not sure how much you are taking the micky..
Anyhow, subbed from UK!
Oh boy this video aged both so well and so bad. Episode 3 of the last season took a huge dump on everything you point out.
I’m still not over Ned’s death or the Red Wedding. RIP. 😭😭
Also great video too 😉🙌🏻
Wondered here after episode 3, looking for a more systematic review of the show's writing than the average rant. Seems I came to the right place. Instant subscribe. Make more shit please.