For those interested, I've published another battle plan analysis for the campaign to defeat Cersei and the Iron Fleet: th-cam.com/video/mxRgVtbZQYM/w-d-xo.html
Very cool plan, I was unable to watch the episode in one sitting so I may have forgotten details. How much time went by between the fall of the wall and the night kings arrival? Couple they have deployed a plan of this kind? Instead of bickering on who was the rightful heir/ess
Very excellent plan. Only one question: what if the undead decide to starve you? We've seen hints the living lack the logistics to sustain their huge forces in the north. My solution: defend at a suitable place more to the south, buy you more time for further reinforcements and logistics, while evacuating the whole north and using guerrilla tactics as you mentioned.
This plan is maybe too good that maybe the Night King can run away for another day. There is also a "wind wall" on the dead's side. Seems not so easy for the hunt.
I really don't think they were intending to do a semi-realistic portrayal like they did with the Battle of the Bastards or the Sack of Kings Landing. They used the entire battle as a horror movie set up for the final pay off to deliver an emotional crescendo which realistic battles really don't do. Sometimes art goes for realism, sometimes it just tries to provoke emotion.
I would love to see you do an improved Battle of the bastards. I think Jon would have stood a much better chance if he was smart. I mean he had a giant that could shoot arrows like a ballista and didn't even use him.
Actually that's not completely accurate, most of the time, if you're going to win in Auto Resolve, the degree by which you win is amazing and in most cases better than a manual battle (unless it's a siege). That is unless we're talking about some of the older total war games, in which case yes, very much like auto-resolve.
If the battle went like this, and STILL went poorly, that would’ve properly raised the tension of the whole battle, without making the defenders look like idiots. 🤦♂️
Clearly the ships weren’t even there until seconds before firing the bolts. Euron used a classic Iron Islands strategy, 11 warpgate rush with full naval tech
@@Wolfsbane909 GRRM always said that shooting a dragon down from the sky is 1 in a million chance of success and the best of them only did it 2 times in all the ASOIAF history... that mofo euron is far from the best
It would certainly help if they weren't flying so closely to their own fleet and so low to the ground. Can't see shit when your head is below the land covering the Iron Fleet
meh, i don't think Winterfell in either the book or the show is really in a strategically valuable or historically accurate location. On the map it's literally in the middle of a giant plain with no natural border or defensive capacity to it. Compared to the Eyrie, which is a massive fortification on the top of a massive rock protrusion in the middle of a vast serrated outcropping of broken ground, impassible gorges, dead ends, and specific vectors of approach. Winterfell is a completely man-made structure in a field, some hundred miles away from a legitimate water source. Even Edoras in Middle-Earth, exploits a natural defense in the form of a giant rock protrusion; but even they had a harder, fall-back position in Helm's Deep.
Winterfell was not in a tactically advantageous position militarily in most ways, but strategically it was roughly the same distance to every great Northern keep and had a hot springs to endure winter sieges better.
@@militustoica a 'hot spring' would not have been able to provide the required water to sustain the daily needs of a holding/village the reported size of winterfell. There's a reason why 99% of humanity has lived and still lives within 50 miles of a coastline or major water way. Remember, a human can live for weeks without food, but they can only live for hours without water. They would have needed a major river or canal just to transport the required supplies to keep the city supplied. wagon trains simply wouldn't have worked. You need water for drinking, cooking, sanitation, and to provide a source for marine proteins and irrigation. They would have needed wells every two feet, and their reservoir would have been tapped 100 years before aegon landed.
maxdecphoenix In the first chapters with Cat and Maester Lewyn, Ned thinks about how he gave her a room directly over the warmest channels. It’s used to heat the walls, floors, and wells. Also as a paramedicine student and a former soldier, it’s about 3 days average without water and 6 weeks without food for the average sized person. If the apparently extremely hot Spring (I am happy to admit I know nothing about hot springs besides a correlation between temperature and geothermal heat sources) is used to thaw out the wall we’ve seen in Winterfell as well as then kitchens, barracks, rooms, and other places that need to be kept warm can be comfortable to rotate your soldiers on watch and staff level officers into and out of while the guys outside are freezing solid, that’s a huge attritional advantage.
maxdecphoenix As for the supplies, if Winterfell’s famously prepared Stark Lords and subsequent conquerors had even a fraction of sense of the Night’s Watch, they would have an explicitly described 3 year long larder buried underground as Castle Black did. Remember episode 1 of the show?House Stark is the only Great House of Westeros to choose a warning rather than a boast as its words.
I really think Obsidian pike such as those used by the pipil of el Salvador would have been a great addition to their ranks, as well as Obsidian tiped arrows. Also, Chinese fire lance and incendiary bombs, explosive fire arrows and rockets or even Greek fire would have been the must have and a real game changer.
Jon: "So it can be defended with only 500 men against 10,000... that's incredible." Ned: "Yeah, the secret is placing the artillery behind the--" Jon: "--So incredible, 500 against 10,000... that's gonna be useful for sure."
@@harry_ord yeah, that's the problem there. With those forces, against 100,000 normal human beings, the battle would have actually been winnable. Defenders have a huge advantage, and the Dothraki alone and their incursions would be devastating for morale of normal people.
They did exactly that, Denethor sent Faramir and their best knights on a suicide charge against the fortified position at Osgiliath. Then again Denethor was supposed to be mad at this point.
Well, the difference is that orcs need to eat, while undeads don't. The Night King can't possibly lose a siege, since his troops don't suffer from cold or hunger. It follows that the living *should* offer battle, preferably on some ground they had fortified, while it is *the Night King* who might have anted to keep his troops away and wait until everyone had starved to death.
The final season reminded me of writing a 1000 word essay in school. You’re getting in depth telling a story and look down at your word count and realize you’re already at 996 words so you just say “Everyone died. The End.”
It's such bullshit that schools put in that word limit. It's such a creativity limiter, and when I was a kid who was interested in writing, I remember my dreams being crushed when my English teacher discouraged creativity and just told me to stick within their strict confines. BS.
yeah, we are told that more than 50% of the various forces are dead but it seems to me the number of survivors at the end of that episode looked like it was in the hundreds at best. Hell, I don't even remember seeing any Dothraki return from that ill fated charge, but there 's supposed to be several thousand of them left, and when the NK was killed, it looked like there was only a few dozen defenders left.
It could be true they only lost 50% because they left some of their forces else where to hold the half of the country she did control. But the ones there the losses looked like 95%
Exactly. At the end of the battle it seemed like only about 50 people survived. Where the fuck the rest of her army come from? Were they hiding somewhere?
@@Incantato remember alot of the forces hadn't even arrived at Winterfell by the time the battle began only 10k dothraki out of 100k riders had made it up the King's Road
The best part, is the fact that the Dothraki were originally going to do their derp charge into the pitch black void, until Milisandra showed up lol....
That’s another reason for wooden defenses, they’d essentially act as booby traps that would cut off the first or second wave that breaks through each line of defense. Personally I would have gone with the much darker plan of collecting everyone who sided with Cersei or refused to fight and used them as human sacrifices. Burn every dead body you can find and pile the skulls like earthwork
With regular steel weapons every commander there knows it won't work on the wights. I think the strategy was to erect a wall of horses around the castle. Here's hopping the enemy can't, you know, reanimate them.
Tyrion: The enemy knows every one of our battle plans Dany: you look surprised Blackadder Blackadder: I certainly am your grace, I didn’t realise we had any battle plans
Tyrion: "It appears the dead outnumber us ten to one." Jon: "Well if that's the case we should probably withdraw behind the walls of the castle..." Tyrion: "Good idea." Jon: "... which is exactly what the Night King would expect us to do and exactly what we shan't do! Place every man outside the walls including the trebuchets and leave the cripple guarding the tree. We'll catch the watchful dead totally off guard!"
@@Sure0Foot actually they did. They only showed the light get snuffed out but not actual Dothraki death. And in the final episode all Dothraki were at King's Landing as nothing happened.
Chris McPole nah there was at least 2/3 of the Dothraki force there. Where would they have gone? I would believe that a few hundred could have stayed at Dragonstone along with a few hundred unsullied, as that is all u need to hold Dragonstone. But, Dany definitely brought the majority of her forces to Winterfell.
2/3 of dothraki and allmost half of the unsullied were destroyed then how in the name of mother of dragons did they came in such large numbers to celebrate the victory after kings landing was destroyed?!?!
There is not even a worth arguing army size in that fucking show, it changed all the time and No Numbers was ever sufficient or ever shown proper. Season 6-8 was just garbage.
This battle plan + obsidian earrings so that the fresh casualties cant be reanimated + no plot armor (i'd love to see Daenerys die, bitch is annoying) would make for most epic battle scene ever
Total War doesn't have deal with production budgets and labor laws. Hence why all the calvary was wiped out as soon as possible. Because the cost of employing that many horsemen during winter. The snow storm was also a ploy to save money for the effects budget. As they don't have to render the background. Notice no one is bring this up. Because discussing budget limitations a less subjective argument.
Here is my improved battle plan: Knowing the new GOT plot armor is so THICC, have all the main fan characters charge into the army of 100,000 undead and defeat them all. Sparing the lives of all the soldiers who did not even need to take part of the battle
*Ser Davos:* Excellent plans, your grace, but what will we do about the Dothraki raping and pillaging the North when the dead are gone? *Jon:* Don’t worry, I’ve got it figured out.
This was amazing. Unfortunately their original battle strategy was to get rid of the overpowered forces of Daenerys as quickly as possible, so there can be some more drama about how to defeat Cersei.
Arya can put on a different face and kill Cersei easily. Or Bran can have a bunch of eagles to it. Done. The show is basically over except they won't do either of these.
They did this but it's a really lazy way of writing a scene out. Honestly you can give 2 military consults an hour to come up with a battle plans, and just say overwhelming attrition did the North in and you'd be fine.
DIdnt you heard? Cerseid dies when she see the kinglsayer kiss the fierce knight-maid (Brienne) and trips hittin her head on the incredible hard butt of the dead mountain
To be honest, the wights have gone from having human strength and not being able to get out of a wooden box (the one in which they kept the wight they brought to King's Landing) to punching their way out of a stone sarcofagus. All that should have happened should have been some scratching noise from inside.
When i heard that, I assumed there must be wards or something to stop this happening. SURELY they must know something we don't, because otherwise it'd be a stupid idea. Nope, it was just a stupid idea. Also, what happened to jon spouting off about every woman needs to fight too?
@@etheldir128 the show makers care more about drama then story. It is longer the books. I knew the dead would rise in the crypts as that's what a bad writer would do. In the books the wouldn't as the Starks bury their dead traditionally I believe due to be as old as the nightking. Starks built the wall too. Been a while since I read the books, so people can correct me if wrong.
@@mrfreeman2911 "the show makers care more about drama then story" the two are not mutually exclusive, its not like its never been done before! The writers are either not talented enough or they are lazy. One thing is sure, they don't respect the viewers.
Made lol but the undead army has no reason to ake bran the night king and why not kill him there. And i doubt the night king needs any more kings blood
@@noeescobar4640 Then why did the night king try to kill Bran himself at the end of the episode? He obviously wanted to be the one to kill him, so actually this plan might have actually worked.
This defense plan would've been *much* more exciting to watch! Imagine wave after wave smashing against defense after defense...that would have been an epic battle that would've made both sides seem so much more intense and exciting! Ah, well. :)
Episode 08x03 needed to be an entire season of a war between the living and the dead with Dany, Jon, Jorah, Ser Davos, Grey Worm, etc. fighting a whole campaign against the Night King.
Needlessly sacrificing 10,000 Dothraki calvary for a beautiful but extremely brief visual was the dumbest thing I've ever seen produced on this show... The existence of Daenery's dragons was more realistic than the thought of a bunch of experienced generals and soldiers coming together and agreeing on that asinine and nonsensical move.
Not to mention the fact that Dothraki are supposed to be horse archers, which the showrunners completely forgot the second George wasn’t there to make the writing actually good.
Fyropyro420 yeh it’s rly subtle I wouldn’t have noticed if it wasn’t for the red woman saying she would take blue eyes. You see a white walker(Arya) begin to move just before the NK dies
"What the hell is this, private?!" "Sir, it's a picture of my wife, son, or daughter, sir!" "ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND, SOLDIER? THIS OBJECT WILL GUARANTEE YOUR TRAGIC DEATH NEAR THE FINAL ACT! FIND SOMETHING THAT WOULDN'T MAKE A MEMENTO FOR ONE OF YOUR SURVIVING COMRADES!" "Sir, yes sir!"
@@5892bootsmas 4th wall is basically what separate the viewer and fiction/movie, so in this case, the romans would be going in the world of GoT to shit on the allies for being so trash.
Which romans, though? Illiterate peasants from 600 CE, the last emperors of Constantinopolis near the time of the European renaissance, or the handful of historically-famous late-antiquity people from around 200 BCE to 60 CE who are really over-represented and lived in basically just 15% of the more-than-a-millenia of the Roman Republic and Empire(s) existence?
And amazingly, the one or two volleys the artillery gets off are perfectly ranged and coordinated to support the cavalry charge... even though they had no idea where the wights were. Like a perfectly executed late-WW1 artillery barrage where the defenders get hit just before the attacking infantry arrive. How the hell could they do that against a non-fixed target in the dark? It was their one combined arms tactic in the entire battle and it was both totally unrealistic and totally ineffectual at the same time. Then the artillery just stops.
The long night never should have been a single episode, but since they did, they needed to make their own Helms Deep. They had a great opportunity to do so, but they discarded it for flashy CGI and subversive expectations.
Jon Snow at the tactical meeting said.."we can't beat them in the straight fight".. And yet,still sending dothraki riders into the pitch black battle..
Actually Bran warging into crowsnto drop obsidian stones from really high is a great idea. In WWII they used small metal.objects and simply drop them from a plane, devastating damage
Someone should make a game called "How I would do it". In which it simulates a WhiteWalker attack and you are to set up your Winterfell defense. Everytime a strategy worked the game takes a screenshot of the successful formation and it automatically get tweeted to Benioff and Weiss with the caption "Like this for example you idiots".
Remember when Theon said that Ned Stark always said that a 100 men could hold Winterfell against 10000?? But apparently 25-30000 men can’t stop an army of 100000 zombies!!!
@@chairianariq6721 True. But they also didn’t have weapons, siege equipment or any fancy weaponry for that matter. Also the defending force was 10000 strong.
@@mountcrushmore566 They have a huge ice dragon and 12 super soldiers they can make undead soldiers as we know. With what they have, they can still overcome this improve battle plan.
Dothraki: FLAMING BLADES!! WOOO!!! CHAAAAARGE!! Jorah: Hol up, I didn't give the command to charge Dany: Did you tell them to charge? Jon: I thought you did.
they wouldn't be charging if they weren't in front of everyone else. Troops that are hard to control when they see the enemy should be kept out of line of sight until they're needed.
@Lazy Gamer Wanting to die in battle does not mean being suicidal the second you enter a battle. Immediately dying to the dead would be seen as an incredibly dishonorable death.
@Lats Niebling What happened there was miscommunication. "Charge those guns" they thought it was the guns further away not the one nearer. Tho both dont have enough infantry to protect them
@Lazy Gamer I think you're exactly right. I think it's silly to believe that the dothraki would have done anything other than charge. I mean, it shocked me for a moment when they did, I was like hey guys no, no-one gave that order. But their whole culture is focused around this kind of aggressive viking mentality where dying a glorious death is enough of a goal in life. We don't want them to die because we've grown to know and like the dothraki, so we hate on the idea that they would do this because we are emotionally invested in them. But we are emotionally invested in them because of good story telling. If you focus on the characters and the culture conveyed in the story, it doesn't make sense in the story for the dothraki to not charge. This was all on point story telling in my mind.
the worst excuse to come out for this episode was that they were trying to make things seem hopeless. All they did was make it frustrating. nothing would have achieved a sense of hopelessness as well as watching a carefully crafted, well executed battle plan be slowly but surely destroyed in the face of an enemy as unrelenting as death personified. but it sure did look cool.
As soon as they said the battle was a homage to Helms Deep I immediately cringed and nearly died of laughter with my brother while watching the episode like it felt like they were trying to disrespect the lord of the rings the twin towers
Would've had more impact having a well executed plan, but be entirely overwhelmed nevertheless. It wouldn't left an impression of: We played our best hand and it still wasn't enough.
@@Witters_ Absolutely! The GoT battle plan was inept, worthy of Braxton Bragg. A sensible defense in depth, slowly crushed by weight of numbers, would have been much more emotionally wrenching, rather than watching Westeros "experts" make basic defensive mistakes.
The Dothraki mounted archers should have been equipped with dragonglass arrows. they could ride around the force of wights and go directly for the white walkers in the rear. That would maximize the damage to the enemy.
There is a problem with that, visibility, away from the castle fires, there was black pitch darkness. You cant surround an enemy army if you cant see how far that army extends. It was possible that the only way to do that was going thru the woods around Winterfell, and you can imagine how dangerous would be to ride at high speed, without light (even with moon light) the snow covering the rocks and roots of the trees, more dothraki would die from falling than to the undead. (sorry for my bad english)
@@diegoderiverabyrne6557 That's a good point that I didn't consider. I didn't consider the 'on the ground' conditions. Funny, these are the types of discussions they should have had at the battle plan scene in GoT.
Jon: let's put our scorpions and trebutchet in front of our infantrymen. Guy:...uhmm my lord Jon: Winter is here. Guy: yes, but...the artillery. Jon: this a fight for survival. Guy: yes I understand that, but maybe our artillery can just move back- Jon: We need to build a trench around winterfell. Guy:oh okay, that helps if we get our men- Jon: the trench needs to be small enough to allow only a handful of men to run between. Maybe six men a breast at most. Guy:what? Trenches are meant to be behind- Jon: then the dothraki will charge the center. Guy:...you're not listening to me are you? Jon: This it, the final battle between the living and the dead Guy: I'm not even here am I? Jon: now our final watch begins Guy: were gonna die here.
At least the show has done a good job setting up the fact that Jon is a complete idiot. It really should not be a surprise at this point that he doesn't know anything.
Biggest mistake of the show's final line of defense in the Godswood was the Karstarks leaving to investigate a noise they heard. That's like saying "I'll be right back" in an 80s horror film.
On the field: Dothraki: Woah, we have flaming swords! Let's charge! Jorah: What? Guys, why are you charging?! Nobody told you to do so! On the wall: Sansa: Wait, did we tell them to charge? Arya: I don't think so... At the side of the battlefield: Daenerys: Didn't you tell them about the actual battle plan?! Jon: I thought you did! At Winterfell's tree: Theon: We are screwed, right? Bran: But it looks beautiful.
Daenerys too. Like you conquered enough sh!t but you can’t defend anything? And all of those battle hardened men in that meeting and nobody said “Hey this plan sucks let’s all put our experience to good use and think of a better one.” I was done when they basically sent the Dothraki to die
@Pretty Gurl Rock Dany never needed to have good strategy. Her army has always been so powerful she just facerolls everything she ever fought, this was the first battle ever where she didn’t have a massive advantage in terms of army strength. Meanwhile Jon is no tactician, he’s just a fighter. Jamie or Brienne would’ve been far better planners.
The Game of Thrones approach to the battle was like your playing an RTS you get up to go to the bathroom and your kid starts smashing on the keyboard and moving the mouse around... Once you get back from the bathroom you realize you hadn't saved the game to restart the battle and are left with a glass cannon to try to kill the boss...
Let's think about how the undead could have done better... 1) start with the storm to blind the enemy 2) attack from all directions not just the front 3) night king carries extra ice spears with him and hunts the other 2 dragons in the storm and shoot them out of the air Or turn on the storm and wait a month, 90% of the enemy will starve and die, especially the calvary. Place the undead troops in defensive positions south of winterfell to stop reinforcements, supplies, and retreat
This would have been a great plan. They're dead, they have no reason to rush. Just surround the city and starve them out. They did it all the time back in the day.
Yeah, in season 1 i thought they spoke of “Winter” as just a really fucking cold weather front that lasted a really long time. Ok, that’s fair enough. But then it’s revealed that the “Winter” is more of a metaphor for some guy that’s basically a mix of Sauron and Jack Frost. Ok, fair enough. But then when the Saron/JF goes to attack, he really doesn’t use weather much at all. It’s like the last thing he uses. It makes no sense militarily since his forces apparently love the cold. Why not just walk around slowly freezing everything? Does freezing his enemies just get boring after thousands of years?
Oh shit, maybe you unintentionally nailed it..! When the Frostboies first started the siege, they saw how pathetic the defense was, and didn't bother to increase their efforts. The ice storm only began when "oh fuck, right, they got dragons". Maybe feigning a GOD AWFUL MONGREL DEFENSE THAT LITERALLY MADE IT ONLY WORSE FOR EACH STEP OF THE WAY was the master plan they made out behind camera? Sure as shit they would be proper fucked if 1. The Dead at least half-assed the siege and/or 2. The Night King didn't personally get his shit up in the most dangerous situation possible. This also explains the attackers' strange periodic hesitations - maybe they thought(/realized) they were being baited!
To be fair this strategy worked really well all they couldn't deal with was the teleportation abilities of Aria. Also night king setting the gods wood on fire with his dragon would have worked as well.
Yeah, you also gotta wonder about the "physics" involved. Seriously. The Undead Army is composed of... corpses. Even in the cold of the north they're still rotting as they stand there. So here they are running at armored human troops. On screen they were depicted as being like some superhuman, superstrong, superpowerful tide that could knock everything over in its path. Um, no. If anything, that large a mass of Undead would be tripping over themselves and each other if they tried moving any faster than a shambling forward. They'd most likely bounce of of armored troops.
@@Thorr97 they're not just corpses, some of them are skeletons without any muscles, so I think you should not think of them as their former human equivalent, but as magicly boosted pawns
@@SantomPh The unsullied wear leather armour. I challenge you to have a go at stabbing through leather with a good steel blade, let alone a rusted kitchen knife. There's a reason leather armour was used historically: it worked.
@@reinoldi1097 a parley is a period of truce. If you kill your enemy at a parley, nobody (people and lords) will trust you ever again. Cersei knows that if she wants to maintain her power, she needs to appear honorable to the public. Of course she can be treacherous in the shadows, and people can suspect her, but she can never give them proof of that.
@@JakiStow People literally know she blew up the Sept of Baelor, killing numerous people. Do you really think they'd still care whether she has honour or not?
@@jitbb8215 how do people know that? We know that as viewers, and the main characters know that because they know Cersei personally. But the population who have no insight on anything? What proof do they have that it blew up because of Cersei?
Drogon can burn down a whole city with a million citizens and also dodge giant bolts shot from like 50 scorpions but not burn 100,000 undead whytes and dodge ice spears hurled at him?
@@independentvariable2044 That's actually reasonable given that birds of prey can't see for shit in the dark, and reptiles go torpid in the cold. I'd assume the dragons are warm-blooded, so the birds would be the better comparison. The problem is that they did actually have the dragons fight at night. If they wanted to say dragons can't see at night, the dragons should have resisted going up at all. Given that they apparently didn't, the logical explanation is that they can see just fine. But hey, who needs consistency or logic when you can have ~*~SPECTACLE~*~
@@Renesh2 They would have to fight at night regardless. They were the only defense against Viserion. Viserion doesn't have to worry about being able to see, he is controlled by the Night King through his power.
I mean, a city actually burns, snow covered ground doesn't. Think of how it is in Attila and 3K Total War, where flaming shot for catapults doesn't do that much unless they're in tall grass or a forest. If they are, it's devastating, but if they aren't, it's no more effective than regular projectiles.
@@mikedi7850 not defending the show by any means, but wights are supposedly super strong, for example in the books, at the fist of the first men samwell see a man in full armour getting lifted off his feet and getting his head torn off, a wight also grabs onto a horse and tears its innards out with one hand.
@@martinezmartinez6453 That is true in the books, but the show didn't really communicate anything like that. Characters are shown easily resisting the strength of even several wights at the same time, so conventional battle tactics should have been way more effective against them than what we see in the series.
HoundofCulann you’re completely right although they did in the early seasons like when Sam gets thrown by the white walker when it comes for Gillys baby, the show runners just completely favoured plot armour towards the end :(
Have dragons hold big rocks really high up drop rocks repeat literally no chance of danger also what kind of flying animal doesn't have amazing eye sight I was a fool to think D&D would even slightly give us an adequate final season
I've been playing RTS games since I was 7 years old and now I'm almost 25. I've played age of empires series, Total war games, Celtic kings, Rise of nations,... and more. Once I've seen the episode I almost got a heart attack
As a fellow veteran RTS player, I agree with you. This episode just hurt to watch, especially when the defenseless women and children were hiding IN THE CRYPT from the ARMY OF THE DEAD.
Agreed, I began having a mental argument with two sides of myself. One trying to enjoy the tension of the scene and the other crying "even WE wouldn't do that!"
@@Aredel Peter Dinklage: "See, nobody thought about that! He's(the Night King) bringing the dead back *and they put women and children... IN THE CRYPT, with all the DEAD PEOPLE!* So... wraaah. Tyrion... he's smart, but I guess not that smart." When even the actor realized something was extremely off with the story, you know shit's going to hell. =__=
Don't forget that the unarmed ones can somehow punch armored soldiers to death in seconds. Did the Night King hire Captain Falcon to teach the Wights how to Falcon Punch or something?
joshua kim I think it was more of a “pile on top of them” strategy but I would pay good money to see a training montage with the Night King being suitably disappointed when teaching his army basic martial arts skills.
@@Alexandra-xk3gu I would ironically love for there to be a joke skit about Captain Falcon singing a fist-lyrics version of "I'll Make a Man Out of You", training wights martial arts.
Though I want the heroes to win, for fun I'll do an improved tactics plan for the villains: 1. Send faster troops ahead to scout the enemy defenses (undead animals, mounted zombies or Others/White Walkers), and hinder the construction crews as much as possible. 2. Summon that blizzard - assuming the blizzard is a short-term one-shot like depicted in the show - to weaken the living troops and provide concealment as the undead troops advance. 3. Raise slain enemy soldiers (plus any animals they use) as much as possible. 4. Night King must stay mounted on his undead dragon for as long as possible. 5. If hunting Bran, use a force led by lieutenants (group of zombies and a couple of Others/White Walkers) to hunt him and kill him. 6. If Bran's ravens are encountered, burninate them with the undead dragon. 7. Use freshly-raised enemy dead as fodder for ranged attacks (also psychological weapon via enemy dealing with dead friends and family attacking them) 8. Send some Others/White Walkers to kill enemy leaders or officers. 9. As wights approach and start climbing the walls, Night King should use undead dragon to strafe the walls. 10. If wights break through the gates, have your Unsullied, equipped with dragonglass-tipped spears, waiting in formation.
I think the writers had some cool thematic ideas and just couldn't let go of them for the sake of actual sound battleplans. The lit fires of the Dothraki slowly dying off into the darkness and total silence for the several seconds following. It just sounds cool and chilling. It builds suspense and highlights the horror theme that the writers are shooting for. And it makes for a nice spectacle for a viewing experience. But when an actually sensible person interjects and asks, "Who in their right minds would actually do this?" The writers are, at this time, extremely reluctant to give up this cool idea in hopes that the powerful emotions that it will hopefully instigate will override any breaks in immersion. Unfortunately, it doesn't. I think most people watched this and were left scratching their heads. It's a spectacle for the sake of spectacle. Suspense for suspense's sake. Melisandre, unable to start her magical cigarette lighter until the very last moments for instance. But the writers wanted this event to feel impactful because it is one of the final battles of this story. So they want the protagonists to come within a knife's edge of defeat over and over again because they want this experience to last in the viewers' minds. And last it will, but unfortunately for the wrong reasons. They're trying too hard to please the audience instead of letting an already good story tell itself, and I think that's what's killing the immersion for so many people.
The lit fires going off could totally have still been done by writing in a disobedient or glory-hungry Dothraki leading his men in ahead of the others against orders.
@@pissedoffturtle7333 yeah, when you think about it, there are ways to make it work, but it does somewhat fly in the face of the fact that these particular dothraki did brave the seas which they hate just to follow dany. Rebellion feels a bit contrary to that degree of loyalty and obedience.
@@roy4173 Yeah, but a desire to prove themselves to her could just as easily cause them to disobey what they see as a cowardly order as it could drive them to cross the sea.
Battle Strategy: Blast The Dead with Dragon Fire Until The Night King Shows Up. I did some math looking at the loot train battle and it looks like the blast can reach at least 10 men as the width and it looks like there are more than 100 wights lined up from left to right charging at winterfell in this battle. This means one swoop can take out around 1,000 wights. In the battle, it took Drogon about 4 seconds to go from right to left sustaining one blast. With two dragons, that's 2,000 wights in 4 seconds gone. From the episode on HBO GO, timestamp 18:20-18:25, it takes about 5 seconds for the dragons to turn back around and do another fire. If the army of the dead does have around 100,000 dead people, that means it'll take 50 swoops and 450 seconds for them to kill the entire army of the dead with dragon fire. Which is 7 minutes and 30 seconds. And I'm probably low balling the area of the blast and how many wights are lined up. So they could definitely have taken out at least half the army of the dead in less than five minutes, which would lure the Night King out 100%. Or have Bran tell everyone where the night king and whitewalkers are and have the Dothraki go around and surprise attack the white walkers with dragonglass arrows. Chunks of the army decommissioned. There are obvious flaws in my plan, but I'm just... Why? Anything but what they did would've been a better plan...
With their sniping accuracy, White walkers would just throw spears from distant easily till they hit each dragon once and it's over Also the weather will prevent dragons from seeing from above. If they stay low they will get hit even easier
What would happen is what happened a bit later in the episode, the dragons would get under attack by the night king. What bothered me is why they waited forever to bring them on.
The problem is, the night king can kill a dragon with one javelin. If he got that chance then he would have 2 undead dragons which means everyone dies. The dragons were too valuable to be used carelessly. My head Canon is they were focused only on killing the night king with the dragons, but got too worried that the undead would overwhelm their army. When they attacked using the dragons is when they got lured into an unfavorable engagement with the undead dragon, and nearly lost a second. The only reason they survived that fight was because it was 2 vs 1.
Loot Train Attack had reasonable tactics on both sides. Lannister Side: The spear wall was a good idea. Had to be thin because they had to cover a lot of ground to protect their objective, the wagon trail. Archers behind and even on the island in the river bed were also a good idea, and bringing the scorpion almost got a dragon killed. Dothraki side: Full on cavalry charge with that numerical advantage against a shield wall only two men deep is perfectly acceptable. Even better, to help the Dothraki, Dany had Drogon burn a breach into the shield wall for the Dothraki to get through and flank and roll up the Lannister lines. Burning the loot a.k.a. the Lannister's objective was smart as well. Honestly, their isn't much either side could've done better.
Summary: Cavalry was not used effectively. Artillery was not used effectively. Dragons were not used effectively. Infantry was not used effectively. Defensive advantage was not used effectively. Only thing done well in this battle, undead army.
I wouldn't say perfect or done well, he seemed to fail to encircle the castle instead of funneling all undead in the front, and his bodyguard was completely incompetent, one noticed Arya but didn't act. That said, the defenders used one thing effectively; main characters and their plot armor!
no undead army could have done a lot better too, they outnumbered them really hard but didn't surround them they could easily have half their forces keep the humans busy while flanking the castle breaching the weaker defenses they just didn't have to do anything tactical since they outnumbered them so hard and every casualty to the enemy is another one to top on that number
No it doesn't and I'll tell you why: They had a couple of days for preparing an entire set of dragonglass weapons for thousands of soldiers. They didn't have time for a palisade that massive. Also the army of the dead can attack by the other side, there was nothing preventing it.
@@giorga33332 Yes, but I think they wanted the dothraki to seek and kill the dead army generals as soon as possible, also they send them blindly ignoring the fact that they had artilley tha they could use to fire torches on the enemy's side to see the enemy better.
fenrirgg days are enough to set up small barricades around the castle given the population residing in the castle. Days are enough to force civies into making dragonglass tips for spears and arrows. Days are enough for dothraki cavs to scout enemy’s movement in anticipation of where would be hit hardest. Days to make sure the siege weapons can actually be used more than once. And while it is no where near enough for a full fledged entrenched position offered, at least a better strategist would have used the archers better.
I remember two things right off the bat that bugged me while watching that battle. They sent their dathraki cavalry in first when they couldnt even see ....personally I would waited till they were attacking the walls and have them attack from the sides or rear. Which would of gave them more time to fire their trebuchehs ....i cant spell. And second was the trying to light the trench with a arrow on a windy ass battle field. What you need is a crazy dude with a torch lol cough helms deep cough lol
@@suganthram7767 Well, not partying considering she was feeling left out and all, but yeah, they *really* could've done a better job at showing how Jorah's death really affected her. Heck, I would've loved if his death tormented her so much through the season that it would be one of the first main reasons for her eventually going mad. But they didn't show that. Or if they did, it certainly wasn't made clear. (like you said, "partying", she did indeed look a little too happy in that ceremony before feeling isolated)
"Reanimated peasants with bread knives cut through plate armor like butter'" Exactly what I thought when the Night King drove the broken, wooden spear shaft through Theon's plate armor.
I think Theon's armour was leather. And he can also throw a magic ice javelin an extraordinary distance with unparalleled speed and accuracy. He was kind of magic. Very few have proper plate, the northmen are mostly in leather with some mail and the odd bit of plate. The entire unsullied wear leather. The Dothraki wear bugger all. Jon was wearing a tunic. I think Brienne and Lady Mormont had full plate, even Jamie only had brigandine on his chest. There were a fair few pauldrons kicking about and the knights of the Vale looked well armoured, but most weren't at all. I suppose it's possible that the North's seemingly padded leather could have been jack of plates, but I have never seen any plates exposed and I think most were just in leather.
That was the one part of the episode I had no problems with, actually. Get a thousand monkeys with typewriters and they may eventually give you Shakespeare, get ten thousand zombies with bread knives and they'll probably find a way through plate. As for Theon, the Night King has already been shown to have many abilities, including no selling dragonfire. Might as well give him super strength while we're at it.
Yes. Northmen, Unsullied, Jon, Lyanna, Pod and Theon and a few others are leather and chain mail. Dothraki were literally animal fur clothing. Knights of the Vale, Brienne were plate armour. But with the whole Night King killing Theon with a sharp pole I guess checks out seeing as he could go all Achilles with his javelins and snipe dragons out of the sky..
Besides the fact that there weren't many plate armor present, knifes are actually very effective against plate armor. especially once a knight in plate armor fell, it was usually the best bet to get a knife and stab him at the weak points (under helmet, under the arm, etc...) But besides that I cringed about every 5min in this episode. some basic battle tactics lessons for the writers would work wonders. *sigh*
>Bran knows where the NK is. >Can Worg multiple beasts to keep tabs on him/army. >Retreat South to DORN, Danny/Jon fly around the world w/wight sample. >Defensible fortification work begins in Ernest. >Deny enemy battle, harrying enemy troops with Lt. Cavalry, traps, ambushes, airpower. >Pick up additional forces/supplies OTW, evacuating all ambulatory elderly/children/infirmed. > *Kill and dismember everyone else to deny the dead reinforcements* >Be looking for an opportunity to assassinate the NK. >Strap Bran-bait to a dragon and fly him around, zig-zagging East to West to buy time. >Being N. of Dorn, Circie + Golden Company can either join or die alone. >Dragons burn their ships if the GC tries to return to Essos. >Profit.
Thanks to you- I managed to use alot of your ideas to help aid my group and character's home in a dnd game. Where I was caught in a position to command and general defenses, attacks, and etc. Where we won! Using your lessons as inspirations.
Rather than using the Dragons and Dothraki as advanced intel and scouting, remember that the Living literally had the Three-Eyed Raven in Winterfell and they were still woefully unprepared. Bran could potentially provide perfect intel, and instead spent most of the time brooding in the Godswood because Jon was creeped out? idk
Honestly, I kind of feel like he was fine with it going down this way. Maybe the night king would not have been so bold to just walk up if the defenders were even a little bit crafty in their defense.
@@zacharybolt4544 If his dead troops wouldn't die he wouldn't step forward to wake them up again and try to do the dirty job of killing Bran himself so if the siege got longer nk would come sooner.
LULZ -- the biggest laugh I got this season was Jaime Lannister encountering Bran in the court-yard. "What are you doing?" says Jaime. "Wargin' out," replies Bran.
The North’s strategist behind Battle of Winterfell “Jon asked me how well I understood theoretical battle strategy, I told them I had a theoretical degree in battle strategy. They said welcome aboard!”
It’s funny, because I realized that Minas Tirith is defended this way. The Rangers in Ithilien harass the Orcs as they advance. The castle at Cair Andros and the bridge at Osgiliath form two major chokepoints, as urban centers and defensive fortresses. The Rammas Echor forms the inner wall, and behind that the Pelennor Fields that provide the defenders with their siege works on the walls.
@@TheRandomshite123 they gave the right motivation for that suicidal action in LOTR Added a lot of tension and emotion to "Once more into the breach ny dear friend". It was suicide but it was better than watching the last Bastion of Humankind possibly be snuffed out and doing nothing. If you're starting a battle with an act of desperation then don't start the battle.
@@carlost856 crasy in eine dort, nur Not in the same way. Denethor was mentaly crippled by sauron, thought what Sauron commanded him through the palantir, and convinced of his defeat. Daenerys crasyness was firstly a dumb idea, and secondly not diriged by the night king to his advantage. Her crasyness revolved around her right to rule the world and the feeling of loneliness, AFTER the Battle. There is no excuse for idiotic writing
This was an excellent analysis/battle plan. I had no idea there would be this much in depth thought when I clicked on the vid. Keep up the quality content! 👍
I'm pretty sure Grey Worm would have been up to the task had he been given the job. Unfortunately he just seemed to be in charge of his unit of unsullied while the actual generals, Jon and Denyris where off burninating shit and ignoring what was happening on the field.
The showrunners could have easily kept the dramatic visuals of the Dothraki charge without actually sacrificing reason. I understand that having a tactically perfect battle scene sometimes doesn't make it an entertaining one (especially to the filthy casuals), but there are just so many ways they can have their cake and eat it to. Here's a simple fix I propose: In order to keep the dramatic effect of the lights-going-out scene, instead of charging the Dothraki out, the defenders built bonfires in the fields. Several rows of bonfires at measured intervals all the way up to the tree line burn in the dark. As the army of the dead swarms in, they smash into the bonfires, like a horde of flickering shadows. One by one, the lights disappear. But there is a practical purpose. Not only do the living see where the enemy is, but they've also pre-sighted the bonfires. Each one is 50 yards apart from one another. The artillery commander orders the trebuchets and mangonel to fire, calling out the range as the undead swarm in. The viewers can see the bonfires quickly winking out as the artillery effectively blasts the horde, and the spotter calling out the ever nearing range acts like a dramatic (but practical) countdown for the inevitable melee to begin. "Four hundred yards... three hundred yards... two fifty... two hundred... archers, nock!" The last of the bonfires go out as the archers fire their volleys and the horde of undead come screaming into view... smashing into the trench and barrier set IN FRONT of the infantry, of course! Is this the optimal defense? No, Invicta's is far more effective, but if an idiot like me could come up with a way to introduce a believable yet dramatic defensive strategy, then the writers should have been able to as well.
Yeah having the dead smash through an effective and impressive battleplan inspires more dread than having them smash through a stupid and ineffective one
I've been arguing for bonfires since the episode aired! Thank you for writing this out. Winterfell is the last stand of mankind. Burn every bed, closet and mattress if it gives you a speck of light. And with the pyres in the latest episode, I just get even angrier. Still gonna watch it, it's a great spectacle. But not without reservations.
THANK YOU. This. Was. So. Therapeutic. I wanted to yell at my tv screen when i saw the god awful defenses from the show. Also (after the first trench) I would have had several pits and traps dug and have the pits lined and covered with spikes, tar, pitch, oil, wildfire, and anything else remotely combustible. I would conceal the pits so the enemy couldn’t see them. Then would have ordered the archers to rain fiery hell on the undead as they fell into these pits. This could have been done! Honestly getting these materials should have been the first thing on Jon’s list when he first went on his quest to go south and get dragonglass! I mean hello derrr let’s get the stuff that lights on fire derrrr. These writers make Jon and his advisors look so stupid it’s sickening! Even for a fantasy show it is universally stupid on every level!
Well fire arrows aren’t actually a thing in real life, I mean I suppose I wouldn’t mind it if it was in GoT cause it’s a fantasy show, but they even had a shot in the episode where Arya I believe shot a fire arrow and it instantly went out. Which is what happens in real life lol
Yeah the trench was just wooden beams and boards. It didn’t look like they covered it with anything that could help the fire ignite which is why you see the fire going out. Of course fire arrows aren’t a thing in real life this is a fantasy show we are talking about here lol
Woah, I'm blown away by the feedback so far and the very inventive battle plans you've all posted below. Given the positive feedback I'd like to consider making this a recurring series. Any ideas on a name for the playlist? "Hand of the King", "Back to the Drawing Board", "Your Plan Sucks"... ?
Your plans are soo identical to my plan. HBO should hire you to construct battles that makes "Sense" like this ...... Ep3 is one of the stupidest battle I've ever seen
Just make a bunch of trenches, set them on fire, use dragons to shoot fireballs and artillery fires for effect. Have spear men behind each trench to poke em down, and retreat when it looks like it’ll be overrun. Rinse and repeat. Cause the dothraki didn’t have dragon glass and with Mel wouldn’t be able to kill anyone. The heroes assume killing TNK would kill all of the enemies so have Arya teleport behind him and “nothing personal kid” and then teleport back to winterfell. Easy as fuck.
After 4 years i am here once again and i have to thank you . This is the video that introduced me to your channel and the awesome historical content you have been making ever since. Your videos taught me about stuff i even never thought about before and details i was not aware of things i have known before. Again, thank you very much
Here is your solution. Powdered obsidian (Dragon Glass), in large pots hurled by siege engines. According to the shows lore all that has to happen is the glass needs to touch the undead and it kills them. Clouds of the stuff drifting across the battlefield would have made defending much easier.
It's such a disservice to Tyrion's character that he didn't come up with a single mechanism or trick for this battle. Danny saved him for his brain, but he doesn't use his brain to survive the apocalypse? The guy had a gigantic chain built for the battle of the blackwater but for the end of the world, he contributes absolutely nothing.
You have to factor in the wind in order for your plan to be effective. The walkers demonstrated that they have some control over the weather, and they would've used a blizzard to clear the air of dragonglass dust. I still think you're on to something. Maybe littering the field with dragonglass shards might work.
@@mattfoulgerBC I disagree with this. It was fairly obvious that they had very little time to prepare their defenses, so even had he come up with a plan like this there would have been no time to enact it. While their overall grasp on battlefield tactics are very bad, I feel like some of you just bitch about everything for the sake of it :P
Not just military enthusiasts, but people who aren't idiots. I may not be able to tell you what the best plan would be, but I can tell what they did was retarded.
The Unsullied formations really bothered me. They took a spear wall,disabled the 'spear wall formation' and clicked on 'loose formation'. They expected that formation to hold on a tide. it was...painfull
They should have been used for flanks or like he said used for small raids personally id do both and when they were there id use them for flanking or attacking from behind as a surprise and send archers witg them
Nihaal Sandim you’re thinking of the Dorhraki. The Unsullied were the spearmen in the center of the defensive infantry formation. They are supposed to excel at melee combat and are supposed to be very disciplined and hard to kill. Provided they work together in proper shieldwall or phalanx formation, that is.
This is a great analysis. Well done!! Something I'd like to add would be to deploy special units of men out in the forest where the Nightkings army approaches from. Hide them in pits, or trenches or maybe in the trees very well hidden. Then they wait for the army of the dead to pass under/over them, depending on where they are hiding. After the dead pass by, they break from cover and attack the White Walker Generals from behind killing them which in turn destroys any undead soldiers that are linked to them. We saw what happened when they killed one of the generals in the attempt to capture an undead soldier to bring to Kings Landing. All the dead soldiers linked to that General instantly died. Or, have them circle around behind the dead army on horses and do the same thing; attack the Generals from behind.
![Avenging Varus - The Germanic Wars [FULL DOCUMENTARY]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ZyzY4ayG8R4/mqdefault.jpg)
For those interested, I've published another battle plan analysis for the campaign to defeat Cersei and the Iron Fleet: th-cam.com/video/mxRgVtbZQYM/w-d-xo.html
Very cool plan, I was unable to watch the episode in one sitting so I may have forgotten details. How much time went by between the fall of the wall and the night kings arrival? Couple they have deployed a plan of this kind? Instead of bickering on who was the rightful heir/ess
Very excellent plan. Only one question: what if the undead decide to starve you? We've seen hints the living lack the logistics to sustain their huge forces in the north. My solution: defend at a suitable place more to the south, buy you more time for further reinforcements and logistics, while evacuating the whole north and using guerrilla tactics as you mentioned.
This plan is maybe too good that maybe the Night King can run away for another day. There is also a "wind wall" on the dead's side. Seems not so easy for the hunt.
I really don't think they were intending to do a semi-realistic portrayal like they did with the Battle of the Bastards or the Sack of Kings Landing. They used the entire battle as a horror movie set up for the final pay off to deliver an emotional crescendo which realistic battles really don't do. Sometimes art goes for realism, sometimes it just tries to provoke emotion.
I would love to see you do an improved Battle of the bastards. I think Jon would have stood a much better chance if he was smart. I mean he had a giant that could shoot arrows like a ballista and didn't even use him.
The winterfell battle was the equivalent of pressing "Auto Resolve" in Total War.
Lmao so true
Ugh, horrible...
Actually that's not completely accurate, most of the time, if you're going to win in Auto Resolve, the degree by which you win is amazing and in most cases better than a manual battle (unless it's a siege). That is unless we're talking about some of the older total war games, in which case yes, very much like auto-resolve.
Considering which units wiped completely, i'd say this is extremely accurate XD
PYRRHIC VICTORY: Accuracy Very Low: Remaining forces after: Aggressive 0%, Balanced 13% Defensive 34%
If the battle went like this, and STILL went poorly, that would’ve properly raised the tension of the whole battle, without making the defenders look like idiots.
🤦♂️
I agree.
exactly!
Truee! It would be very tense seeing the dead getting close trench by trench
@@kevinpaulmasangkay1689 at least it would make sense
@Wurzelbert84 wholeheartedly!
"Dragons should provide high-level recon", we just found out that apparently they can't spot a fleet of ships until they're in ballista range.
the dragons don't even have armour dude....maybe don't fight in the dark. can't see anything! LOL
Clearly the ships weren’t even there until seconds before firing the bolts. Euron used a classic Iron Islands strategy, 11 warpgate rush with full naval tech
@@Wolfsbane909 GRRM always said that shooting a dragon down from the sky is 1 in a million chance of success and the best of them only did it 2 times in all the ASOIAF history... that mofo euron is far from the best
Apparently the dragon may survive that shot . You got to get it through the eye to kill it . That's how dorne killed one dragon.
It would certainly help if they weren't flying so closely to their own fleet and so low to the ground. Can't see shit when your head is below the land covering the Iron Fleet
winterfell in the books has two layers of walls and a moat in between. winterfell is a formidable castle made puny looking in the show
meh, i don't think Winterfell in either the book or the show is really in a strategically valuable or historically accurate location. On the map it's literally in the middle of a giant plain with no natural border or defensive capacity to it. Compared to the Eyrie, which is a massive fortification on the top of a massive rock protrusion in the middle of a vast serrated outcropping of broken ground, impassible gorges, dead ends, and specific vectors of approach. Winterfell is a completely man-made structure in a field, some hundred miles away from a legitimate water source. Even Edoras in Middle-Earth, exploits a natural defense in the form of a giant rock protrusion; but even they had a harder, fall-back position in Helm's Deep.
Winterfell was not in a tactically advantageous position militarily in most ways, but strategically it was roughly the same distance to every great Northern keep and had a hot springs to endure winter sieges better.
@@militustoica a 'hot spring' would not have been able to provide the required water to sustain the daily needs of a holding/village the reported size of winterfell. There's a reason why 99% of humanity has lived and still lives within 50 miles of a coastline or major water way. Remember, a human can live for weeks without food, but they can only live for hours without water.
They would have needed a major river or canal just to transport the required supplies to keep the city supplied. wagon trains simply wouldn't have worked. You need water for drinking, cooking, sanitation, and to provide a source for marine proteins and irrigation. They would have needed wells every two feet, and their reservoir would have been tapped 100 years before aegon landed.
maxdecphoenix In the first chapters with Cat and Maester Lewyn, Ned thinks about how he gave her a room directly over the warmest channels. It’s used to heat the walls, floors, and wells.
Also as a paramedicine student and a former soldier, it’s about 3 days average without water and 6 weeks without food for the average sized person.
If the apparently extremely hot Spring (I am happy to admit I know nothing about hot springs besides a correlation between temperature and geothermal heat sources) is used to thaw out the wall we’ve seen in Winterfell as well as then kitchens, barracks, rooms, and other places that need to be kept warm can be comfortable to rotate your soldiers on watch and staff level officers into and out of while the guys outside are freezing solid, that’s a huge attritional advantage.
maxdecphoenix As for the supplies, if Winterfell’s famously prepared Stark Lords and subsequent conquerors had even a fraction of sense of the Night’s Watch, they would have an explicitly described 3 year long larder buried underground as Castle Black did.
Remember episode 1 of the show?House Stark is the only Great House of Westeros to choose a warning rather than a boast as its words.
Or you can just use a trebuchet to launch Arya directly at the Night King.
Isn't that what they did?
Can’t say for sure, but I think she just materialized out of thin air. She said “not today” to the god of death tho, so it makes sense.
@@anchuto No, I'm pretty sure she whispered "Nothing personal, kid" to the Night King before killing him
Ah, the Lord of the Rings Gambit. Classic
You would need pre-nerf Euron to operate the trebuchet.
_Any_ battle plan would be an improvement.
no plan would have been an improvement
@@artski09
🤣 so true
Obsidian earrings would have prevented troops from changing sides
I really think Obsidian pike such as those used by the pipil of el Salvador would have been a great addition to their ranks, as well as Obsidian tiped arrows. Also, Chinese fire lance and incendiary bombs, explosive fire arrows and rockets or even Greek fire would have been the must have and a real game changer.
how about everyone on the field charging with the dothraki?
Ned Stark always said that 500 men could defend Winterfell against 10000...
He apparently never explained Jon how
Jon: "So it can be defended with only 500 men against 10,000... that's incredible."
Ned: "Yeah, the secret is placing the artillery behind the--"
Jon: "--So incredible, 500 against 10,000... that's gonna be useful for sure."
Moat Cailin, not Winterfell.
@@spleen5527 I suspect it's also against living people not undead fellows who will give up their lives for the ultimate goal.
well, i guess that was assuming the attackers dont have giants that just can smash down the door and dragons that bring down the walls.
@@harry_ord yeah, that's the problem there. With those forces, against 100,000 normal human beings, the battle would have actually been winnable. Defenders have a huge advantage, and the Dothraki alone and their incursions would be devastating for morale of normal people.
Imagine if in the battle of Gondor, Gandalf sent out majority of his army outside the wall to battle against the much larger forces of Mordor .
They did exactly that, Denethor sent Faramir and their best knights on a suicide charge against the fortified position at Osgiliath. Then again Denethor was supposed to be mad at this point.
@@carlost856 I was referring to the book. In the movie, yeah but Denethor was losing it. In GOT the commanders were sane, supposedly.
@@anthony77343 Technically they also did it in the book to rescue Faramir and his forces.
oh, come on. that would be FUCKIN RIDIC...oh.
Well, the difference is that orcs need to eat, while undeads don't. The Night King can't possibly lose a siege, since his troops don't suffer from cold or hunger. It follows that the living *should* offer battle, preferably on some ground they had fortified, while it is *the Night King* who might have anted to keep his troops away and wait until everyone had starved to death.
Forget historians, even a mount and blade player could devise a plan better than this
F1 F3
Should've hired a Total War Medieval player to direct the battle
f1 f2 the cav f1 f1 the archers ona nice clump and f1 f3 once the infantry or horses get close to the archers
Anyone who’s played mount and blade bannerlord for 10 hours knows how to properly position troops
give me almerra castle,a great long axe, rhoduk crossbowmen,veagir archers,and nord huscarls and ill be able to defend against any assault.
My battleplan would be:
Tie dragonglass arrow tips on some raven heads.
Let Bran fly them into the Night King like Kamikaze RC-Planes!
Why not do that with the suicidal cav charge, just shot an fire arrow at the cav and boom, its a suicidal charge anyways..
That's pretty genius oh wait Bran is quite useless.
Underrated genius idea
Why can’t bran warg into Cersei and have her jump off a roof or slice her own throat?
This was a meme the day after episode 3 came out. Don't pretend you didn't see the meme and try and play it off as your own idea
*Sun Tzu rolling in his grave after seeing episode 3*
Oh God ... With half the man he will drink some wine and chill while they win
Sun Tzu will beg Night King to resurrect him so he can kill whoever the fuck wrote this plot.
Rolling in his grave? Or punching his way out of his crypt - through stone and concrete?
Yes I am
@@bmbm1 Fucking beautiful.
The final season reminded me of writing a 1000 word essay in school. You’re getting in depth telling a story and look down at your word count and realize you’re already at 996 words so you just say “Everyone died. The End.”
And those 4 words are the last 4 seasons lol
So true
oh my fucking god you are so right
1000 word essays in school? The maximum I had to write were 600 words
It's such bullshit that schools put in that word limit. It's such a creativity limiter, and when I was a kid who was interested in writing, I remember my dreams being crushed when my English teacher discouraged creativity and just told me to stick within their strict confines. BS.
the funniest part of this entire battle is the defenders miraculously only lost 50% of their forces LOL
yeah, we are told that more than 50% of the various forces are dead but it seems to me the number of survivors at the end of that episode looked like it was in the hundreds at best. Hell, I don't even remember seeing any Dothraki return from that ill fated charge, but there 's supposed to be several thousand of them left, and when the NK was killed, it looked like there was only a few dozen defenders left.
It could be true they only lost 50% because they left some of their forces else where to hold the half of the country she did control. But the ones there the losses looked like 95%
Exactly. At the end of the battle it seemed like only about 50 people survived. Where the fuck the rest of her army come from? Were they hiding somewhere?
@@Incantato remember alot of the forces hadn't even arrived at Winterfell by the time the battle began only 10k dothraki out of 100k riders had made it up the King's Road
That's pretty good acceptable losses really - Versing the Army of Dead - from the show fighting a Lannister Army is more deadly.
The best part, is the fact that the Dothraki were originally going to do their derp charge into the pitch black void, until Milisandra showed up lol....
That’s another reason for wooden defenses, they’d essentially act as booby traps that would cut off the first or second wave that breaks through each line of defense. Personally I would have gone with the much darker plan of collecting everyone who sided with Cersei or refused to fight and used them as human sacrifices. Burn every dead body you can find and pile the skulls like earthwork
@@samuraitabernac3050 they need to have dragon glass on them
With regular steel weapons every commander there knows it won't work on the wights.
I think the strategy was to erect a wall of horses around the castle. Here's hopping the enemy can't, you know, reanimate them.
Tyrion: The enemy knows every one of our battle plans
Dany: you look surprised Blackadder
Blackadder: I certainly am your grace, I didn’t realise we had any battle plans
Hahaha... Criminally Underrated comment
Old Slack Bladder was the best!
Best comment so far 👍🏻🤣
Tyrion: "It appears the dead outnumber us ten to one."
Jon: "Well if that's the case we should probably withdraw behind the walls of the castle..."
Tyrion: "Good idea."
Jon: "... which is exactly what the Night King would expect us to do and exactly what we shan't do! Place every man outside the walls including the trebuchets and leave the cripple guarding the tree. We'll catch the watchful dead totally off guard!"
Dany: "But of course we have, how do you think our battles are directed?"
Blackadder: "Our battles are directed my Queen?"
While the dothraki army died in five seconds, Samwell Tarly, Jaime Lannister and Jon Snow survived being attacked for more than 10 deads at same time
Maybe the dothrakis can't fight in the dark
They all just probably fell in a hole or something.
it's because they didn't cut away from the Dothraki. In Season 8, cutting away from a character in peril is how you save them.
@@Sure0Foot actually they did. They only showed the light get snuffed out but not actual Dothraki death. And in the final episode all Dothraki were at King's Landing as nothing happened.
@@robinlinh Lmao and the unsulied got destroyed in the begining and then they are just fine in Kingslanding 🤣
Remember when the dothraki died during the siege but somehow regained their forces in the next 2-3 episodes.
Reproduced by mother of dothraki lol
Chris McPole nah there was at least 2/3 of the Dothraki force there. Where would they have gone? I would believe that a few hundred could have stayed at Dragonstone along with a few hundred unsullied, as that is all u need to hold Dragonstone. But, Dany definitely brought the majority of her forces to Winterfell.
that was some fine fast breeding program initiated by mother of dragons
2/3 of dothraki and allmost half of the unsullied were destroyed then how in the name of mother of dragons did they came in such large numbers to celebrate the victory after kings landing was destroyed?!?!
There is not even a worth arguing army size in that fucking show, it changed all the time and No Numbers was ever sufficient or ever shown proper. Season 6-8 was just garbage.
the writers of GOT certainly don't play totalwar lol
This battle plan + obsidian earrings so that the fresh casualties cant be reanimated + no plot armor (i'd love to see Daenerys die, bitch is annoying) would make for most epic battle scene ever
Total war isn't that good of a presentation of real battlefield tho
Fuck yeah dude!
They would lose 5 legions to a heard of dears and squirrels in about 5 minutes.
Total War doesn't have deal with production budgets and labor laws. Hence why all the calvary was wiped out as soon as possible. Because the cost of employing that many horsemen during winter.
The snow storm was also a ploy to save money for the effects budget. As they don't have to render the background. Notice no one is bring this up. Because discussing budget limitations a less subjective argument.
Here is my improved battle plan: Knowing the new GOT plot armor is so THICC, have all the main fan characters charge into the army of 100,000 undead and defeat them all. Sparing the lives of all the soldiers who did not even need to take part of the battle
Cutting down the budget in the process so we can have a better farewell for Ghost
What about putting Bran below the tree, Arya perched on a branch and... that's that.
Brilliant comment.
or you can just send Arya to kill the whole army cause apparently she can do that with girl power
Now I want a dynasty warriors game for GoT.
When I saw the Calvary charge head on into battle, I yelled "WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING!!!!!!" at my TV.
When you can't give them good writing, give them a pretty picture to look at.
Pretty sure we all did lol
Martin, who studied medieval history, would never write that garbage.
How can the city where Jesus was crucified charge?
I think they were looking at Ork tactics
*Ser Davos:* Excellent plans, your grace, but what will we do about the Dothraki raping and pillaging the North when the dead are gone?
*Jon:* Don’t worry, I’ve got it figured out.
Two Birds, meet stone. :D
😂😂😂
Funny, but this was another person's comment on another video
Where you see rapists, I see doctors, engineers and rocket scientists
@@charlottereid1752 sounded like some racist whistlin, and sure enough i was right. Little nazi baby.
This was amazing.
Unfortunately their original battle strategy was to get rid of the overpowered forces of Daenerys as quickly as possible, so there can be some more drama about how to defeat Cersei.
Arya can put on a different face and kill Cersei easily. Or Bran can have a bunch of eagles to it. Done. The show is basically over except they won't do either of these.
@@rezkalla Why didn't they just fly the eagles to the land of always winter... and have them scratch the night king with dragonglass tipped claws.
@@MoffatLee Mind blown
They did this but it's a really lazy way of writing a scene out. Honestly you can give 2 military consults an hour to come up with a battle plans, and just say overwhelming attrition did the North in and you'd be fine.
DIdnt you heard? Cerseid dies when she see the kinglsayer kiss the fierce knight-maid (Brienne) and trips hittin her head on the incredible hard butt of the dead mountain
we're fighting a necromancer
lets hide in the crypts!
To be honest, the wights have gone from having human strength and not being able to get out of a wooden box (the one in which they kept the wight they brought to King's Landing) to punching their way out of a stone sarcofagus. All that should have happened should have been some scratching noise from inside.
In the books the Stark dead are buried with iron bolts or something like that. to stop this kind of thing.
Read it ages ago
When i heard that, I assumed there must be wards or something to stop this happening. SURELY they must know something we don't, because otherwise it'd be a stupid idea. Nope, it was just a stupid idea. Also, what happened to jon spouting off about every woman needs to fight too?
@@etheldir128 the show makers care more about drama then story.
It is longer the books.
I knew the dead would rise in the crypts as that's what a bad writer would do.
In the books the wouldn't as the Starks bury their dead traditionally I believe due to be as old as the nightking. Starks built the wall too.
Been a while since I read the books, so people can correct me if wrong.
@@mrfreeman2911 "the show makers care more about drama then story" the two are not mutually exclusive, its not like its never been done before! The writers are either not talented enough or they are lazy. One thing is sure, they don't respect the viewers.
D&D: “We basically see the end of the Dothraki essentially”
Greyworm literally an episode later: “hAf aR GoN”
Spawn timer :D
They had no idea wtf they were doing. Martin hadn’t gotten that far and their lack of talent didn’t have a mask anymore.
YOU DO NOT GET TO SPEAK!! Well, ok, but let me just speak...
TRAINING UNIT READY TRAINING UNIT READY TRAI
Aka “What Stannis would have done”
D&D fucking hated the character Stannis. just look at the way they killed him off. just hilarious
*knee bending intensifies*
*book Stannis
@@KeeperCharlie nah, DD are just stupid, any kids ever played a simple strategy game can done better
The one true king
The writers should have played a round of plants vs zombies at least, before making this plan .
Palmface
Hahahaha...that's what I thought
Shame the Unsullied didn't have any wall-nuts hehe
Wow haha
@@andrewpackham8236 wall nuts are op
@S F NK cant see the future though
Better plan:
1. send Bran on a carriage to the undead army
2. have Arya hide on it
3. nothing personnel night king
4. profit
Savage! sounds like a sansa plan ;) hahaha
Made lol but the undead army has no reason to ake bran the night king and why not kill him there. And i doubt the night king needs any more kings blood
@@noeescobar4640 Then why did the night king try to kill Bran himself at the end of the episode? He obviously wanted to be the one to kill him, so actually this plan might have actually worked.
after touching bran, night king put him on his magic radar. faces dont fool him.
@@bd80247 he wanted to kill bran himself because of plot reasons...
This defense plan would've been *much* more exciting to watch! Imagine wave after wave smashing against defense after defense...that would have been an epic battle that would've made both sides seem so much more intense and exciting! Ah, well. :)
Basically The Battle of Helm's Deep.
the CGI department was too busy too rewrite their resumes after they read the S8 script
it was supposed to be a living tower defense...
Episode 08x03 needed to be an entire season of a war between the living and the dead with Dany, Jon, Jorah, Ser Davos, Grey Worm, etc. fighting a whole campaign against the Night King.
Everyone: Jon, your plan lead to the death of every single Dothraki!
Jon: Yeah lol, but didn't they look cool tho?
Best reply for me!
Was that the idea maybe?
Frank Harr no it was to git rid of a pricey expense by the directors
Jon: I did it for the budget!
also the reason we put the non combatants in the crypt
My plan would be to load Bran into a catapult and deliver him directly to the Night King.
LOL
@pAtRiCk StAr ahahahaa
That was my meme on twitter
It's never explained why Bran dying is a bad thing. He's the keeper of memories or somesuch but why is that important? Why should we care?
Arya on Rhaegal instead of John, ready to jump off the dragon and jump on Viserion to kill both
every military unit wears a dragonglass earring - impossible to raise the dead. EZPZ
i'm actually impressed with this haha
This is pretty genius...
Not going to lie, this is a pretty impressive idea.
Genius
I am recreating the show and you are hired..👍
Needlessly sacrificing 10,000 Dothraki calvary for a beautiful but extremely brief visual was the dumbest thing I've ever seen produced on this show... The existence of Daenery's dragons was more realistic than the thought of a bunch of experienced generals and soldiers coming together and agreeing on that asinine and nonsensical move.
Not to mention the fact that Dothraki are supposed to be horse archers, which the showrunners completely forgot the second George wasn’t there to make the writing actually good.
All you need to win: 1) bran waiting under the tree 2) arya hiding in its branches... The rest can wait in the south...
Youre my general.
She wasn’t in the tree she was hidden as a white walker
well he need good boi Reek ummm i mean Theon.
Fyropyro420 yeh it’s rly subtle I wouldn’t have noticed if it wasn’t for the red woman saying she would take blue eyes. You see a white walker(Arya) begin to move just before the NK dies
Not without plot armor though
I'm surprised that the US military doesn't equip every soldier with plot armor. They'd be so OP.
Marines! Line up for weapons and cryptic foreshadowing!
If only the Germans had plot armor while fighting on the Eastern Front.
@@12345678900987659101 Wouldn't help. Soviet plot armor is the plottiest plot armor of all plot armors.
"What the hell is this, private?!"
"Sir, it's a picture of my wife, son, or daughter, sir!"
"ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND, SOLDIER? THIS OBJECT WILL GUARANTEE YOUR TRAGIC DEATH NEAR THE FINAL ACT! FIND SOMETHING THAT WOULDN'T MAKE A MEMENTO FOR ONE OF YOUR SURVIVING COMRADES!"
"Sir, yes sir!"
@@classarank7youtubeherokeyb63
"And don't you DARE talk about your plans for after the war, private!"
Dothraki did a LEEEROOOOY JENKINS!!
Atleast they have chicken
Hold Muh Fermented Mare's Milk!!!!!!
Yeah, but it was a premature leeroy resulting in a disaster
Good one!
Jorah Mormont: Joooraah Moormoont! charges............."oh shit!"
If the Romans saw this, they would've probably would've went 4th wall against them.
gramatic at its finest
Literally every general will do that
I don’t understand do you mind explaining “4th wall”?
@@5892bootsmas 4th wall is basically what separate the viewer and fiction/movie, so in this case, the romans would be going in the world of GoT to shit on the allies for being so trash.
Which romans, though? Illiterate peasants from 600 CE, the last emperors of Constantinopolis near the time of the European renaissance, or the handful of historically-famous late-antiquity people from around 200 BCE to 60 CE who are really over-represented and lived in basically just 15% of the more-than-a-millenia of the Roman Republic and Empire(s) existence?
ARTILLERY IN THE FRONT LINE!? my god the total war in me cringing.
Sun Tzu, Napoleon, Genghis Khan, Carolus Rex crying in their graves
Got that same feeling...
And amazingly, the one or two volleys the artillery gets off are perfectly ranged and coordinated to support the cavalry charge... even though they had no idea where the wights were. Like a perfectly executed late-WW1 artillery barrage where the defenders get hit just before the attacking infantry arrive. How the hell could they do that against a non-fixed target in the dark? It was their one combined arms tactic in the entire battle and it was both totally unrealistic and totally ineffectual at the same time. Then the artillery just stops.
obviously the show writers should have done their research and played a couple of age of empires/total war quick battles
It was about the budget. Artillery in the show is basically CG.
Imagine if the Night King just didn't show up.
Expectations subverted
Night King sipping hot toddies on the North Pole while the army of dead conquers the world...makes too much sense for Georgie Martin.
@@onetwo57627 Fair enough. I thought George was a better writer than that.
@@onetwo57627 I haven't read Ice and Fire, but back in the day George wrote some very good stories.
imagine they didnt went on that zombie hunt and gave away a dragon
The long night never should have been a single episode, but since they did, they needed to make their own Helms Deep. They had a great opportunity to do so, but they discarded it for flashy CGI and subversive expectations.
and shitty lighting
CGI no one could see lol
Jon Snow at the tactical meeting said.."we can't beat them in the straight fight"..
And yet,still sending dothraki riders into the pitch black battle..
lolol
writers must hate their bosses
Nobody send them. Did you see anyone give an order? The way i saw it: Dothraki said “f it we gona rush b, our swords r glowing lel”
@@nothajzl They definitely said that.
recoon with combat or ......... any other use for light cav vs unlmited enemy?
12:56 the drawing of Bran´s crows dropping Arya from the sky really got me!
Oh! That how she "jumped" that inhuman distance. Now that actually it makes sense !
Haha! I missed that. I had to go back and pause. That explains a lot...
Actually Bran warging into crowsnto drop obsidian stones from really high is a great idea. In WWII they used small metal.objects and simply drop them from a plane, devastating damage
@@neto5928 Joking aside, on set they used a crane, I heard. That jump just weren't humanly possible for someone her size.
Harbinger that was ww1 and it wasn't very effective
Someone should make a game called "How I would do it".
In which it simulates a WhiteWalker attack and you are to set up your Winterfell defense.
Everytime a strategy worked the game takes a screenshot of the successful formation and it automatically get tweeted to Benioff and Weiss with the caption "Like this for example you idiots".
Someone should get onto this
Total War with mod should do it. Send the record too
There's a game like that and it's called battle simulator
This is an excellent idea
Remember when Theon said that Ned Stark always said that a 100 men could hold Winterfell against 10000?? But apparently 25-30000 men can’t stop an army of 100000 zombies!!!
Its a different thing, this 100.000 army has no feel for cold, no need for food and drink, and it have no fear
@@chairianariq6721 True. But they also didn’t have weapons, siege equipment or any fancy weaponry for that matter. Also the defending force was 10000 strong.
If Ned was alive he would've undoubtedly came up with a better strategy than what was shown. Probably would've decimated the undead army
@@mountcrushmore566 They have a huge ice dragon and 12 super soldiers they can make undead soldiers as we know. With what they have, they can still overcome this improve battle plan.
Painful
The nort apparently dont remembers all that much 🤪
Dothraki: FLAMING BLADES!! WOOO!!! CHAAAAARGE!!
Jorah: Hol up, I didn't give the command to charge
Dany: Did you tell them to charge?
Jon: I thought you did.
they wouldn't be charging if they weren't in front of everyone else. Troops that are hard to control when they see the enemy should be kept out of line of sight until they're needed.
@Lazy Gamer hense the keep them out of line of sight part
@Lazy Gamer Wanting to die in battle does not mean being suicidal the second you enter a battle. Immediately dying to the dead would be seen as an incredibly dishonorable death.
@Lats Niebling What happened there was miscommunication. "Charge those guns" they thought it was the guns further away not the one nearer. Tho both dont have enough infantry to protect them
@Lazy Gamer I think you're exactly right. I think it's silly to believe that the dothraki would have done anything other than charge. I mean, it shocked me for a moment when they did, I was like hey guys no, no-one gave that order. But their whole culture is focused around this kind of aggressive viking mentality where dying a glorious death is enough of a goal in life.
We don't want them to die because we've grown to know and like the dothraki, so we hate on the idea that they would do this because we are emotionally invested in them. But we are emotionally invested in them because of good story telling. If you focus on the characters and the culture conveyed in the story, it doesn't make sense in the story for the dothraki to not charge. This was all on point story telling in my mind.
Glad I'm not the only one that had an aneurysm watching the defence
Right down to Theon charging with a spear. YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE DEFENDING.
the worst excuse to come out for this episode was that they were trying to make things seem hopeless. All they did was make it frustrating. nothing would have achieved a sense of hopelessness as well as watching a carefully crafted, well executed battle plan be slowly but surely destroyed in the face of an enemy as unrelenting as death personified.
but it sure did look cool.
They said they were paying homage to Helm's deep.
Well, what you say is exactly what happens at Helm's deep.
Seems like they didnt pay attention.
As soon as they said the battle was a homage to Helms Deep I immediately cringed and nearly died of laughter with my brother while watching the episode like it felt like they were trying to disrespect the lord of the rings the twin towers
Would've had more impact having a well executed plan, but be entirely overwhelmed nevertheless.
It wouldn't left an impression of: We played our best hand and it still wasn't enough.
@@Witters_ Absolutely! The GoT battle plan was inept, worthy of Braxton Bragg. A sensible defense in depth, slowly crushed by weight of numbers, would have been much more emotionally wrenching, rather than watching Westeros "experts" make basic defensive mistakes.
Cannot agree more, nothing is more hopeless than seeing your perfectly crafted battle plan shatter in the face of a tsunami of undead.
The Dothraki mounted archers should have been equipped with dragonglass arrows. they could ride around the force of wights and go directly for the white walkers in the rear. That would maximize the damage to the enemy.
There is a problem with that, visibility, away from the castle fires, there was black pitch darkness. You cant surround an enemy army if you cant see how far that army extends. It was possible that the only way to do that was going thru the woods around Winterfell, and you can imagine how dangerous would be to ride at high speed, without light (even with moon light) the snow covering the rocks and roots of the trees, more dothraki would die from falling than to the undead.
(sorry for my bad english)
@@diegoderiverabyrne6557 That's a good point that I didn't consider. I didn't consider the 'on the ground' conditions.
Funny, these are the types of discussions they should have had at the battle plan scene in GoT.
The show runners weren’t that smart though
The battle plan was exactly like the writing quality of the final season, absent.
General Invicta: "Your Grace, I have devised this battle plan, which will allow us to maximize our chances to.."
Jon Snow: "Ah dun want et"
@@mfbjo6854 hahaha
The writing quality of every season * dumb and dumber always sucked... they only had good scenes when they relied on the books.
7 seasons: winter is coming
1 stab later: well that's it, pack it up boys
"But you said winter could last years in the stories you told---"
"ye, but we had a stabby boi"
1 stab? Did you not see the whole battle before it?
@@TheDantheman12121 u dumb?🤦♂️🚀
Ambrose Nope, I literally couldn’t see the battle, was too darn dark
well.. when he dies he dies.. changes nothing about 7 seasons before that
Jon: let's put our scorpions and trebutchet in front of our infantrymen.
Guy:...uhmm my lord
Jon: Winter is here.
Guy: yes, but...the artillery.
Jon: this a fight for survival.
Guy: yes I understand that, but maybe our artillery can just move back-
Jon: We need to build a trench around winterfell.
Guy:oh okay, that helps if we get our men-
Jon: the trench needs to be small enough to allow only a handful of men to run between. Maybe six men a breast at most.
Guy:what? Trenches are meant to be behind-
Jon: then the dothraki will charge the center.
Guy:...you're not listening to me are you?
Jon: This it, the final battle between the living and the dead
Guy: I'm not even here am I?
Jon: now our final watch begins
Guy: were gonna die here.
At least the show has done a good job setting up the fact that Jon is a complete idiot. It really should not be a surprise at this point that he doesn't know anything.
Only one load per artillery. Winter is coming.
Robb is rolling in his grave
Thats prolly the longest youtube comment ive ever read. I laughed. Cheers
@@Pbdave1092 not only that but lets only fire it when we have troops in the field.
Biggest mistake of the show's final line of defense in the Godswood was the Karstarks leaving to investigate a noise they heard. That's like saying "I'll be right back" in an 80s horror film.
On the field:
Dothraki: Woah, we have flaming swords! Let's charge!
Jorah: What? Guys, why are you charging?! Nobody told you to do so!
On the wall:
Sansa: Wait, did we tell them to charge?
Arya: I don't think so...
At the side of the battlefield:
Daenerys: Didn't you tell them about the actual battle plan?!
Jon: I thought you did!
At Winterfell's tree:
Theon: We are screwed, right?
Bran: But it looks beautiful.
On the frontline: Leeeeeeeroyyyy Jeeeeenkins!
Prot Eus Only thing I would change: *Bran: I‘m going to go now
Actaully, Jorah drew his sword and told them to charge. The Dothraki respect Jorah - odd you'd think they'd charge without him.
@@TurkeyMaze maybe he meant to charge his cellphone? 😂
I think the plot was melisandre sacrificed them to the lord of light would ve been more convincing
My strategy: everybody leaves for Essos and drop Bran at King's Landing
Or take Bran back to the north, to buy some time
Or leave the north and settle the neck and build a big ambush battles.
László Simon Burján now this is smart!
@@Brandonhayhew nice name
@@kingbyrd.1512 your profile name is kinda unnecessary why not name yourself what your photo of profile says so emperor from old star wars.
What this battle brought to mind for me was mostly a reminder that ROB STARK was the military kind in that family.
Still, Jaime should have said something
True. Rob was the better strategist/war general. Jon is more of a on the ground battle hero
Daenerys too. Like you conquered enough sh!t but you can’t defend anything? And all of those battle hardened men in that meeting and nobody said “Hey this plan sucks let’s all put our experience to good use and think of a better one.” I was done when they basically sent the Dothraki to die
@@prettygurlrockx Daenerys never won a battle where she didn't outnumber the opponent.
@Pretty Gurl Rock Dany never needed to have good strategy. Her army has always been so powerful she just facerolls everything she ever fought, this was the first battle ever where she didn’t have a massive advantage in terms of army strength. Meanwhile Jon is no tactician, he’s just a fighter. Jamie or Brienne would’ve been far better planners.
The Game of Thrones approach to the battle was like your playing an RTS you get up to go to the bathroom and your kid starts smashing on the keyboard and moving the mouse around... Once you get back from the bathroom you realize you hadn't saved the game to restart the battle and are left with a glass cannon to try to kill the boss...
When you let the guy who "knows nothing" plan your battle.
Plot armour was so strong, even Sean Bean would have survived the battle
I wouldn't say that. The only way Sean Bean would have survived the Battle of Winterfell would have been if he had been in Dorne at the time.
HAHAHAHAAHAHA :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
@@christophershirk6482 I would' t say that. Dorne is dangerous for little girls... and Sean Bean 😂. No one could defend him there.
@@Dark-wy9yb Hey, Eddard SURVIVED his one trip to Dorne.
@@roguishpaladin But Sean Bean wasn' t young Eddard. It is the reason why😂.
Let's think about how the undead could have done better...
1) start with the storm to blind the enemy
2) attack from all directions not just the front
3) night king carries extra ice spears with him and hunts the other 2 dragons in the storm and shoot them out of the air
Or turn on the storm and wait a month, 90% of the enemy will starve and die, especially the calvary. Place the undead troops in defensive positions south of winterfell to stop reinforcements, supplies, and retreat
This would have been a great plan. They're dead, they have no reason to rush. Just surround the city and starve them out. They did it all the time back in the day.
Yeah, in season 1 i thought they spoke of “Winter” as just a really fucking cold weather front that lasted a really long time. Ok, that’s fair enough. But then it’s revealed that the “Winter” is more of a metaphor for some guy that’s basically a mix of Sauron and Jack Frost. Ok, fair enough. But then when the Saron/JF goes to attack, he really doesn’t use weather much at all. It’s like the last thing he uses. It makes no sense militarily since his forces apparently love the cold. Why not just walk around slowly freezing everything? Does freezing his enemies just get boring after thousands of years?
Oh shit, maybe you unintentionally nailed it..! When the Frostboies first started the siege, they saw how pathetic the defense was, and didn't bother to increase their efforts. The ice storm only began when "oh fuck, right, they got dragons". Maybe feigning a GOD AWFUL MONGREL DEFENSE THAT LITERALLY MADE IT ONLY WORSE FOR EACH STEP OF THE WAY was the master plan they made out behind camera? Sure as shit they would be proper fucked if 1. The Dead at least half-assed the siege and/or 2. The Night King didn't personally get his shit up in the most dangerous situation possible.
This also explains the attackers' strange periodic hesitations - maybe they thought(/realized) they were being baited!
But if they just stand there the dragons could fly over them and burn them. Also the nightking could be murdered
To be fair this strategy worked really well all they couldn't deal with was the teleportation abilities of Aria. Also night king setting the gods wood on fire with his dragon would have worked as well.
You put way more thought into this than anyone on the show did.
"reanimated peasants with knifes cut through plates like butter" ok i laughed :D
Yeah, you also gotta wonder about the "physics" involved. Seriously. The Undead Army is composed of... corpses. Even in the cold of the north they're still rotting as they stand there. So here they are running at armored human troops. On screen they were depicted as being like some superhuman, superstrong, superpowerful tide that could knock everything over in its path. Um, no. If anything, that large a mass of Undead would be tripping over themselves and each other if they tried moving any faster than a shambling forward. They'd most likely bounce of of armored troops.
@@Thorr97 magic
butterknives
@@Thorr97 they're not just corpses, some of them are skeletons without any muscles, so I think you should not think of them as their former human equivalent, but as magicly boosted pawns
@@Alexrayioons I wish there was lore to back this up. :c
6:04 “reanimated peasants with bread knives cut through plate armor like butter” lmao
Alec Dalton and dragon scales, easy to pierce cause you know, dragons are soft & cuddly. ... . yeah.... .... soft... warm....moist..
They swarm over the soldiers and stab them through the gaps in armor. The Unsullied do not even wear armor other than helmets.
SantomPh SantomPh true, but go watch the clip of Ser Jorah getting stabbed with ancient iron weapons straight through his plate armor
@@SantomPh The unsullied wear leather armour. I challenge you to have a go at stabbing through leather with a good steel blade, let alone a rusted kitchen knife. There's a reason leather armour was used historically: it worked.
@@Bow165 Jorah wore plate armour. It worked fine in previous seasons, but not in this battle.
later we see kings' landing with the Ballistas atop the walls and I'm yelling "see, that's where you put the artillery!"
100 soldiers in front of th wall...
what they want to do ? xD
and why they dont shoot the dragon?
on the shps they can shoot a dragon flying ....
...
@@reinoldi1097 a parley is a period of truce. If you kill your enemy at a parley, nobody (people and lords) will trust you ever again. Cersei knows that if she wants to maintain her power, she needs to appear honorable to the public. Of course she can be treacherous in the shadows, and people can suspect her, but she can never give them proof of that.
@@JakiStow People literally know she blew up the Sept of Baelor, killing numerous people. Do you really think they'd still care whether she has honour or not?
@@JakiStow She blew up the Great Sept of Baelor to kill, like, two people.
@@jitbb8215 how do people know that? We know that as viewers, and the main characters know that because they know Cersei personally. But the population who have no insight on anything? What proof do they have that it blew up because of Cersei?
I believe the best strategy would have bin to kick D&D of the team and write a whole new script for the season
...
Here's the plan we're going to..
Dothraki "Leeeeeeroy Jenkins!"
😂😂 that is too accurate
Thats weird. I recently watched a internet documentary about him and I wouldn't have caught the reference without it.
Times up, lets do this
At least (the hound) had chicken
They probably took pointers from Jon Snow at battle of the bastards. His Leroy Jenkins moment there is one for the history books.
They pulled the biggest Leroy Jenkins ever
Drogon can burn down a whole city with a million citizens and also dodge giant bolts shot from like 50 scorpions but not burn 100,000 undead whytes and dodge ice spears hurled at him?
D&D: Drogon can't see clearly at night
@@independentvariable2044 That's actually reasonable given that birds of prey can't see for shit in the dark, and reptiles go torpid in the cold. I'd assume the dragons are warm-blooded, so the birds would be the better comparison. The problem is that they did actually have the dragons fight at night. If they wanted to say dragons can't see at night, the dragons should have resisted going up at all. Given that they apparently didn't, the logical explanation is that they can see just fine. But hey, who needs consistency or logic when you can have ~*~SPECTACLE~*~
@@Renesh2 They would have to fight at night regardless. They were the only defense against Viserion.
Viserion doesn't have to worry about being able to see, he is controlled by the Night King through his power.
I mean, a city actually burns, snow covered ground doesn't. Think of how it is in Attila and 3K Total War, where flaming shot for catapults doesn't do that much unless they're in tall grass or a forest. If they are, it's devastating, but if they aren't, it's no more effective than regular projectiles.
He forgot he could do that.
"Reanimated peasants with bread knives cut through plate armour like butter"
:)
It's almost like whoever made the show had no idea how armour was supposed to work 🤔
@@mikedi7850 not defending the show by any means, but wights are supposedly super strong, for example in the books, at the fist of the first men samwell see a man in full armour getting lifted off his feet and getting his head torn off, a wight also grabs onto a horse and tears its innards out with one hand.
@@martinezmartinez6453 fiction eah oh well lol
@@martinezmartinez6453 That is true in the books, but the show didn't really communicate anything like that. Characters are shown easily resisting the strength of even several wights at the same time, so conventional battle tactics should have been way more effective against them than what we see in the series.
HoundofCulann you’re completely right although they did in the early seasons like when Sam gets thrown by the white walker when it comes for Gillys baby, the show runners just completely favoured plot armour towards the end :(
That episode was a case of someone having such a high reputation, that no one could tell them their idea(s) were trash.
Great! Can you do another one, called How Not To Get Ambushed By A Ship?
Step one: USE YOUR FUCKING EYES
Step two: Fly a bit higher than at easily-hit-by-ballista range.
Step three: Profit.
The secret is to not forget that the enemy who relies on ship-based warfare for the majority of his power might actually try using ships.
Have dragons hold big rocks really high up drop rocks repeat literally no chance of danger also what kind of flying animal doesn't have amazing eye sight I was a fool to think D&D would even slightly give us an adequate final season
It is not just not spotting the one ship, it is whole fucking fleet...
@@johnherrera5261 dude they did but they didn't have budget
I've been playing RTS games since I was 7 years old and now I'm almost 25.
I've played age of empires series, Total war games, Celtic kings, Rise of nations,... and more.
Once I've seen the episode I almost got a heart attack
As a fellow veteran RTS player, I agree with you. This episode just hurt to watch, especially when the defenseless women and children were hiding IN THE CRYPT from the ARMY OF THE DEAD.
Yep. That frontal Light Cav charge at the start and Artillery placement was painful to watch.
Agreed, I began having a mental argument with two sides of myself. One trying to enjoy the tension of the scene and the other crying "even WE wouldn't do that!"
even the most noob Total War player could do a better placement than D&D did for godsake
@@Aredel Peter Dinklage: "See, nobody thought about that! He's(the Night King) bringing the dead back *and they put women and children... IN THE CRYPT, with all the DEAD PEOPLE!* So... wraaah. Tyrion... he's smart, but I guess not that smart."
When even the actor realized something was extremely off with the story, you know shit's going to hell. =__=
"Reanimated peasants with bread knives cut through plate armor like butter..." LOL
Don't forget that the unarmed ones can somehow punch armored soldiers to death in seconds. Did the Night King hire Captain Falcon to teach the Wights how to Falcon Punch or something?
couldnt even cut through gambeson with that
joshua kim I think it was more of a “pile on top of them” strategy but I would pay good money to see a training montage with the Night King being suitably disappointed when teaching his army basic martial arts skills.
@@Alexandra-xk3gu
I would ironically love for there to be a joke skit about Captain Falcon singing a fist-lyrics version of "I'll Make a Man Out of You", training wights martial arts.
I mean, maybe 4 characters were wearing plate. Doesnt matter when a horde of zombies are trampling you and stabbing your exposed parts.
Though I want the heroes to win, for fun I'll do an improved tactics plan for the villains:
1. Send faster troops ahead to scout the enemy defenses (undead animals, mounted zombies or Others/White Walkers), and hinder the construction crews as much as possible.
2. Summon that blizzard - assuming the blizzard is a short-term one-shot like depicted in the show - to weaken the living troops and provide concealment as the undead troops advance.
3. Raise slain enemy soldiers (plus any animals they use) as much as possible.
4. Night King must stay mounted on his undead dragon for as long as possible.
5. If hunting Bran, use a force led by lieutenants (group of zombies and a couple of Others/White Walkers) to hunt him and kill him.
6. If Bran's ravens are encountered, burninate them with the undead dragon.
7. Use freshly-raised enemy dead as fodder for ranged attacks (also psychological weapon via enemy dealing with dead friends and family attacking them)
8. Send some Others/White Walkers to kill enemy leaders or officers.
9. As wights approach and start climbing the walls, Night King should use undead dragon to strafe the walls.
10. If wights break through the gates, have your Unsullied, equipped with dragonglass-tipped spears, waiting in formation.
Or kill Bran the same way he killed Vyserion.
Finally, stitch a tiny lump of dragonglass under the skin of all your troops. No raising extra zombies for the enemy!
ohhhh like a vaccine thats cool i wonder if it would work
the Night King was created with dragonglass, so maybe that can be counterproductive
Brilliant
The Night King would lift his arms.....and......nothing
@@guldarheel1204 that would have been an amazing moments
I think the writers had some cool thematic ideas and just couldn't let go of them for the sake of actual sound battleplans. The lit fires of the Dothraki slowly dying off into the darkness and total silence for the several seconds following. It just sounds cool and chilling. It builds suspense and highlights the horror theme that the writers are shooting for. And it makes for a nice spectacle for a viewing experience. But when an actually sensible person interjects and asks, "Who in their right minds would actually do this?" The writers are, at this time, extremely reluctant to give up this cool idea in hopes that the powerful emotions that it will hopefully instigate will override any breaks in immersion.
Unfortunately, it doesn't. I think most people watched this and were left scratching their heads. It's a spectacle for the sake of spectacle. Suspense for suspense's sake. Melisandre, unable to start her magical cigarette lighter until the very last moments for instance. But the writers wanted this event to feel impactful because it is one of the final battles of this story. So they want the protagonists to come within a knife's edge of defeat over and over again because they want this experience to last in the viewers' minds. And last it will, but unfortunately for the wrong reasons.
They're trying too hard to please the audience instead of letting an already good story tell itself, and I think that's what's killing the immersion for so many people.
The lit fires going off could totally have still been done by writing in a disobedient or glory-hungry Dothraki leading his men in ahead of the others against orders.
Roy . : BBB nbkzkzk
@@pissedoffturtle7333 yeah, when you think about it, there are ways to make it work, but it does somewhat fly in the face of the fact that these particular dothraki did brave the seas which they hate just to follow dany. Rebellion feels a bit contrary to that degree of loyalty and obedience.
@@roy4173 Yeah, but a desire to prove themselves to her could just as easily cause them to disobey what they see as a cowardly order as it could drive them to cross the sea.
@@pissedoffturtle7333 this is a good point.
Battle Strategy: Blast The Dead with Dragon Fire Until The Night King Shows Up.
I did some math looking at the loot train battle and it looks like the blast can reach at least 10 men as the width and it looks like there are more than 100 wights lined up from left to right charging at winterfell in this battle. This means one swoop can take out around 1,000 wights. In the battle, it took Drogon about 4 seconds to go from right to left sustaining one blast. With two dragons, that's 2,000 wights in 4 seconds gone. From the episode on HBO GO, timestamp 18:20-18:25, it takes about 5 seconds for the dragons to turn back around and do another fire.
If the army of the dead does have around 100,000 dead people, that means it'll take 50 swoops and 450 seconds for them to kill the entire army of the dead with dragon fire. Which is 7 minutes and 30 seconds. And I'm probably low balling the area of the blast and how many wights are lined up. So they could definitely have taken out at least half the army of the dead in less than five minutes, which would lure the Night King out 100%.
Or have Bran tell everyone where the night king and whitewalkers are and have the Dothraki go around and surprise attack the white walkers with dragonglass arrows. Chunks of the army decommissioned.
There are obvious flaws in my plan, but I'm just... Why? Anything but what they did would've been a better plan...
A better plan his - tbh. Least includes magic.
With their sniping accuracy, White walkers would just throw spears from distant easily till they hit each dragon once and it's over
Also the weather will prevent dragons from seeing from above. If they stay low they will get hit even easier
we can only use dragons when white walkers are not around
What would happen is what happened a bit later in the episode, the dragons would get under attack by the night king. What bothered me is why they waited forever to bring them on.
The problem is, the night king can kill a dragon with one javelin. If he got that chance then he would have 2 undead dragons which means everyone dies. The dragons were too valuable to be used carelessly. My head Canon is they were focused only on killing the night king with the dragons, but got too worried that the undead would overwhelm their army. When they attacked using the dragons is when they got lured into an unfavorable engagement with the undead dragon, and nearly lost a second. The only reason they survived that fight was because it was 2 vs 1.
“Many people are unnecessarily killed.” -sums up this whole battle.
What do we say to good tactics and writing?
GoT since Season 5: not today!
Battle of bastards was the only good battle ..... CHANGE MY MIND
@@zerosternritter566 It weren't a good battle though, it was just as retarded as this.
@@six2make4 Except Ramsay's plan was to make Jon Snow get angry and full retard. At least that's how i interpreted the Rickon scene
@@six2make4 Really ? It felt quite realistic moreover the fuckin Lightings for that ep were good
Loot Train Attack had reasonable tactics on both sides.
Lannister Side:
The spear wall was a good idea. Had to be thin because they had to cover a lot of ground to protect their objective, the wagon trail. Archers behind and even on the island in the river bed were also a good idea, and bringing the scorpion almost got a dragon killed.
Dothraki side:
Full on cavalry charge with that numerical advantage against a shield wall only two men deep is perfectly acceptable.
Even better, to help the Dothraki, Dany had Drogon burn a breach into the shield wall for the Dothraki to get through and flank and roll up the Lannister lines.
Burning the loot a.k.a. the Lannister's objective was smart as well.
Honestly, their isn't much either side could've done better.
Summary:
Cavalry was not used effectively.
Artillery was not used effectively.
Dragons were not used effectively.
Infantry was not used effectively.
Defensive advantage was not used effectively.
Only thing done well in this battle, undead army.
The night king did a perfect battle plan and yet he lost😥😥😥 he will be remembered...
I wouldn't say perfect or done well, he seemed to fail to encircle the castle instead of funneling all undead in the front, and his bodyguard was completely incompetent, one noticed Arya but didn't act.
That said, the defenders used one thing effectively; main characters and their plot armor!
no undead army could have done a lot better too, they outnumbered them really hard but didn't surround them
they could easily have half their forces keep the humans busy while flanking the castle breaching the weaker defenses
they just didn't have to do anything tactical since they outnumbered them so hard and every casualty to the enemy is another one to top on that number
*Dragons were not used effectively.
So what you say is that no-one was used effectively... see what I did there? ;)
Only problem with your plan is that it makes sense.
Lmao
No it doesn't and I'll tell you why:
They had a couple of days for preparing an entire set of dragonglass weapons for thousands of soldiers. They didn't have time for a palisade that massive.
Also the army of the dead can attack by the other side, there was nothing preventing it.
@@fenrirgg still , they could use dothraki more wisely and siege weapons as well
@@giorga33332 Yes, but I think they wanted the dothraki to seek and kill the dead army generals as soon as possible, also they send them blindly ignoring the fact that they had artilley tha they could use to fire torches on the enemy's side to see the enemy better.
fenrirgg days are enough to set up small barricades around the castle given the population residing in the castle. Days are enough to force civies into making dragonglass tips for spears and arrows. Days are enough for dothraki cavs to scout enemy’s movement in anticipation of where would be hit hardest. Days to make sure the siege weapons can actually be used more than once. And while it is no where near enough for a full fledged entrenched position offered, at least a better strategist would have used the archers better.
I remember two things right off the bat that bugged me while watching that battle. They sent their dathraki cavalry in first when they couldnt even see ....personally I would waited till they were attacking the walls and have them attack from the sides or rear. Which would of gave them more time to fire their trebuchehs ....i cant spell. And second was the trying to light the trench with a arrow on a windy ass battle field. What you need is a crazy dude with a torch lol cough helms deep cough lol
I still can't get over how after beating magical zombies no one had any character arc.
Like someone should get ptsd.
Yeah well the writers kinda forgot about that.
Yeah, Ned Stark had it in like episode 5 of season 1.
Especially Daenerys...she lost Jorah and the next episode she is partying WTF
U can’t get it twice mate
@@suganthram7767 Well, not partying considering she was feeling left out and all, but yeah, they *really* could've done a better job at showing how Jorah's death really affected her. Heck, I would've loved if his death tormented her so much through the season that it would be one of the first main reasons for her eventually going mad. But they didn't show that. Or if they did, it certainly wasn't made clear. (like you said, "partying", she did indeed look a little too happy in that ceremony before feeling isolated)
"Reanimated peasants with bread knives cut through plate armor like butter'"
Exactly what I thought when the Night King drove the broken, wooden spear shaft through Theon's plate armor.
I think Theon's armour was leather. And he can also throw a magic ice javelin an extraordinary distance with unparalleled speed and accuracy. He was kind of magic.
Very few have proper plate, the northmen are mostly in leather with some mail and the odd bit of plate. The entire unsullied wear leather. The Dothraki wear bugger all. Jon was wearing a tunic. I think Brienne and Lady Mormont had full plate, even Jamie only had brigandine on his chest. There were a fair few pauldrons kicking about and the knights of the Vale looked well armoured, but most weren't at all.
I suppose it's possible that the North's seemingly padded leather could have been jack of plates, but I have never seen any plates exposed and I think most were just in leather.
That was the one part of the episode I had no problems with, actually. Get a thousand monkeys with typewriters and they may eventually give you Shakespeare, get ten thousand zombies with bread knives and they'll probably find a way through plate. As for Theon, the Night King has already been shown to have many abilities, including no selling dragonfire. Might as well give him super strength while we're at it.
@@DJMavis Underrated comment - love it
Yes. Northmen, Unsullied, Jon, Lyanna, Pod and Theon and a few others are leather and chain mail. Dothraki were literally animal fur clothing. Knights of the Vale, Brienne were plate armour. But with the whole Night King killing Theon with a sharp pole I guess checks out seeing as he could go all Achilles with his javelins and snipe dragons out of the sky..
Besides the fact that there weren't many plate armor present, knifes are actually very effective against plate armor. especially once a knight in plate armor fell, it was usually the best bet to get a knife and stab him at the weak points (under helmet, under the arm, etc...)
But besides that I cringed about every 5min in this episode. some basic battle tactics lessons for the writers would work wonders. *sigh*
Jon Snow : Okay so first the cavalry will charge directly like this
Me : *You know nothing Jon Snow*
Ah, i see, you are an Extra History fan as well...
Me: You did nothing Jon Snow
So lame..
>Bran knows where the NK is.
>Can Worg multiple beasts to keep tabs on him/army.
>Retreat South to DORN, Danny/Jon fly around the world w/wight sample.
>Defensible fortification work begins in Ernest.
>Deny enemy battle, harrying enemy troops with Lt. Cavalry, traps, ambushes, airpower.
>Pick up additional forces/supplies OTW, evacuating all ambulatory elderly/children/infirmed.
> *Kill and dismember everyone else to deny the dead reinforcements*
>Be looking for an opportunity to assassinate the NK.
>Strap Bran-bait to a dragon and fly him around, zig-zagging East to West to buy time.
>Being N. of Dorn, Circie + Golden Company can either join or die alone.
>Dragons burn their ships if the GC tries to return to Essos.
>Profit.
@@zoopdterdoobdter5743 it so faultless you wonder why they didn't it......
Thanks to you- I managed to use alot of your ideas to help aid my group and character's home in a dnd game. Where I was caught in a position to command and general defenses, attacks, and etc. Where we won! Using your lessons as inspirations.
Rather than using the Dragons and Dothraki as advanced intel and scouting, remember that the Living literally had the Three-Eyed Raven in Winterfell and they were still woefully unprepared.
Bran could potentially provide perfect intel, and instead spent most of the time brooding in the Godswood because Jon was creeped out? idk
Honestly, I kind of feel like he was fine with it going down this way. Maybe the night king would not have been so bold to just walk up if the defenders were even a little bit crafty in their defense.
@@zacharybolt4544 If his dead troops wouldn't die he wouldn't step forward to wake them up again and try to do the dirty job of killing Bran himself so if the siege got longer nk would come sooner.
But bran did not say anything
Stealing this from someone else, but just get Bran to lead a flock of dragonglass beaked crows, and head straight for the White Walkers
LULZ -- the biggest laugh I got this season was Jaime Lannister encountering Bran in the court-yard. "What are you doing?" says Jaime. "Wargin' out," replies Bran.
The North’s strategist behind Battle of Winterfell “Jon asked me how well I understood theoretical battle strategy, I told them I had a theoretical degree in battle strategy. They said welcome aboard!”
Oh man, that's pretty funny 😂
Fantastic idea!
Nice New Vegas reference! 😂
But do you know how to aim solar panels?
Fantastic lmao
It’s funny, because I realized that Minas Tirith is defended this way.
The Rangers in Ithilien harass the Orcs as they advance. The castle at Cair Andros and the bridge at Osgiliath form two major chokepoints, as urban centers and defensive fortresses.
The Rammas Echor forms the inner wall, and behind that the Pelennor Fields that provide the defenders with their siege works on the walls.
And both squandered their elite cavalry with a useless charge against a formation they had no chance of overcoming.
@@carlost856 difference being in lotr they knew it was a fucking stupid maneuver that was suicide
@@TheRandomshite123 they gave the right motivation for that suicidal action in LOTR Added a lot of tension and emotion to "Once more into the breach ny dear friend". It was suicide but it was better than watching the last Bastion of Humankind possibly be snuffed out and doing nothing. If you're starting a battle with an act of desperation then don't start the battle.
The reason being that Denethor was crazy when he ordered that and look at that Dragon Girl was crazy too.
@@carlost856 crasy in eine dort, nur Not in the same way. Denethor was mentaly crippled by sauron, thought what Sauron commanded him through the palantir, and convinced of his defeat. Daenerys crasyness was firstly a dumb idea, and secondly not diriged by the night king to his advantage. Her crasyness revolved around her right to rule the world and the feeling of loneliness, AFTER the Battle. There is no excuse for idiotic writing
This was an excellent analysis/battle plan. I had no idea there would be this much in depth thought when I clicked on the vid. Keep up the quality content! 👍
IF my boi Tywin was there, battle plans would had be issued
I'm pretty sure Grey Worm would have been up to the task had he been given the job. Unfortunately he just seemed to be in charge of his unit of unsullied while the actual generals, Jon and Denyris where off burninating shit and ignoring what was happening on the field.
@@shayneoneill1506 Im pretty sure the writers came up with the battle plan
Salam A. 😭😭😂😂😂🤣🤣😂😅
Or he would have lost it because well.. He lost every battle in the show 😂
Stannis Baratheon was missing!!! :D
The showrunners could have easily kept the dramatic visuals of the Dothraki charge without actually sacrificing reason. I understand that having a tactically perfect battle scene sometimes doesn't make it an entertaining one (especially to the filthy casuals), but there are just so many ways they can have their cake and eat it to.
Here's a simple fix I propose:
In order to keep the dramatic effect of the lights-going-out scene, instead of charging the Dothraki out, the defenders built bonfires in the fields. Several rows of bonfires at measured intervals all the way up to the tree line burn in the dark. As the army of the dead swarms in, they smash into the bonfires, like a horde of flickering shadows. One by one, the lights disappear.
But there is a practical purpose. Not only do the living see where the enemy is, but they've also pre-sighted the bonfires. Each one is 50 yards apart from one another. The artillery commander orders the trebuchets and mangonel to fire, calling out the range as the undead swarm in. The viewers can see the bonfires quickly winking out as the artillery effectively blasts the horde, and the spotter calling out the ever nearing range acts like a dramatic (but practical) countdown for the inevitable melee to begin.
"Four hundred yards... three hundred yards... two fifty... two hundred... archers, nock!"
The last of the bonfires go out as the archers fire their volleys and the horde of undead come screaming into view... smashing into the trench and barrier set IN FRONT of the infantry, of course!
Is this the optimal defense? No, Invicta's is far more effective, but if an idiot like me could come up with a way to introduce a believable yet dramatic defensive strategy, then the writers should have been able to as well.
Yeah having the dead smash through an effective and impressive battleplan inspires more dread than having them smash through a stupid and ineffective one
Underappreciated comment
I've been arguing for bonfires since the episode aired! Thank you for writing this out. Winterfell is the last stand of mankind. Burn every bed, closet and mattress if it gives you a speck of light. And with the pyres in the latest episode, I just get even angrier.
Still gonna watch it, it's a great spectacle. But not without reservations.
This is quite brilliant. Sadly I have but one like to give...
Kingdom of Heaven?
THANK YOU. This. Was. So. Therapeutic. I wanted to yell at my tv screen when i saw the god awful defenses from the show.
Also (after the first trench) I would have had several pits and traps dug and have the pits lined and covered with spikes, tar, pitch, oil, wildfire, and anything else remotely combustible. I would conceal the pits so the enemy couldn’t see them. Then would have ordered the archers to rain fiery hell on the undead as they fell into these pits. This could have been done! Honestly getting these materials should have been the first thing on Jon’s list when he first went on his quest to go south and get dragonglass! I mean hello derrr let’s get the stuff that lights on fire derrrr.
These writers make Jon and his advisors look so stupid it’s sickening! Even for a fantasy show it is universally stupid on every level!
enemy wouldn't have seen them, no one would have seen them. every there or watching couldn't see shit
Um....that’s the whole point in having traps and pits.....plus after lighting the first trench it would be easier to see.
@@abnushagnasty805 was Tryna make a joke bc the show was fucking black as shit
Ignore my statement
Well fire arrows aren’t actually a thing in real life, I mean I suppose I wouldn’t mind it if it was in GoT cause it’s a fantasy show, but they even had a shot in the episode where Arya I believe shot a fire arrow and it instantly went out. Which is what happens in real life lol
Yeah the trench was just wooden beams and boards. It didn’t look like they covered it with anything that could help the fire ignite which is why you see the fire going out. Of course fire arrows aren’t a thing in real life this is a fantasy show we are talking about here lol
Crazy thing is I'm sure you would've volunteered your war consultation for free and made the show so much better.
Woah, I'm blown away by the feedback so far and the very inventive battle plans you've all posted below. Given the positive feedback I'd like to consider making this a recurring series. Any ideas on a name for the playlist? "Hand of the King", "Back to the Drawing Board", "Your Plan Sucks"... ?
Invicta possibly “Battle plans to live” since it’s meant to be better ways to win so more troops stay alive?
Awesome work!
How about the night kings battle plan ? :) great video thanks
Thanks for another great video Invicta!
Your plans are soo identical to my plan. HBO should hire you to construct battles that makes "Sense" like this ...... Ep3 is one of the stupidest battle I've ever seen
I was so upset about the winterfell battle, I'm glad you fixed it.
Just make a bunch of trenches, set them on fire, use dragons to shoot fireballs and artillery fires for effect. Have spear men behind each trench to poke em down, and retreat when it looks like it’ll be overrun. Rinse and repeat. Cause the dothraki didn’t have dragon glass and with Mel wouldn’t be able to kill anyone. The heroes assume killing TNK would kill all of the enemies so have Arya teleport behind him and “nothing personal kid” and then teleport back to winterfell. Easy as fuck.
Charge the light cavalry into mass of infantry they said......
GG, WP, 10/10
Death Korps of Krieg from 40k approves
That's the worst idea ever, I wouild have done Macedoinian tactics.
Well it worked for the light brigade at Balaclava..... oh wait
After 4 years i am here once again and i have to thank you . This is the video that introduced me to your channel and the awesome historical content you have been making ever since. Your videos taught me about stuff i even never thought about before and details i was not aware of things i have known before. Again, thank you very much
Here is your solution. Powdered obsidian (Dragon Glass), in large pots hurled by siege engines. According to the shows lore all that has to happen is the glass needs to touch the undead and it kills them. Clouds of the stuff drifting across the battlefield would have made defending much easier.
That sounds awesome! Damn this battle could've been so good.
It's such a disservice to Tyrion's character that he didn't come up with a single mechanism or trick for this battle. Danny saved him for his brain, but he doesn't use his brain to survive the apocalypse? The guy had a gigantic chain built for the battle of the blackwater but for the end of the world, he contributes absolutely nothing.
You have to factor in the wind in order for your plan to be effective. The walkers demonstrated that they have some control over the weather, and they would've used a blizzard to clear the air of dragonglass dust. I still think you're on to something. Maybe littering the field with dragonglass shards might work.
@@mattfoulgerBC I disagree with this. It was fairly obvious that they had very little time to prepare their defenses, so even had he come up with a plan like this there would have been no time to enact it. While their overall grasp on battlefield tactics are very bad, I feel like some of you just bitch about everything for the sake of it :P
@@mattfoulgerBC Why not just find a pyromancer or two to make wildfire? or use the pine boughs as fire bombs/firefields across the battlefield.
This is the most beautiful thing I’ve seen in a while. You are the collective voice for all history and military enthusiasts who watched that episode.
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Not just military enthusiasts, but people who aren't idiots. I may not be able to tell you what the best plan would be, but I can tell what they did was retarded.
nonam namrson when you write a better episode let me know
The Unsullied formations really bothered me. They took a spear wall,disabled the 'spear wall formation' and clicked on 'loose formation'.
They expected that formation to hold on a tide. it was...painfull
They should have been used for flanks or like he said used for small raids personally id do both and when they were there id use them for flanking or attacking from behind as a surprise and send archers witg them
Nihaal Sandim you’re thinking of the Dorhraki. The Unsullied were the spearmen in the center of the defensive infantry formation. They are supposed to excel at melee combat and are supposed to be very disciplined and hard to kill. Provided they work together in proper shieldwall or phalanx formation, that is.
If this Rome 2 total war they could have just clicked pike phalanx. Literally kill anything in front of them whilst taking no casualties.
This is a great analysis. Well done!!
Something I'd like to add would be to deploy special units of men out in the forest where the Nightkings army approaches from. Hide them in pits, or trenches or maybe in the trees very well hidden. Then they wait for the army of the dead to pass under/over them, depending on where they are hiding. After the dead pass by, they break from cover and attack the White Walker Generals from behind killing them which in turn destroys any undead soldiers that are linked to them.
We saw what happened when they killed one of the generals in the attempt to capture an undead soldier to bring to Kings Landing. All the dead soldiers linked to that General instantly died.
Or, have them circle around behind the dead army on horses and do the same thing; attack the Generals from behind.