It's so simple to stop cheating. Make it so you have to link your personal ID to one and only one steam account for life. If you get caught cheating, you're permanently banned for life on the steam platform. Problem solved.
lolol, yup...never works. The student can always change a few words here and there...add a few sentences...and boom...indistinguishable. From what I've seen...teachers actually don't care for AI abusers like this since they are actually still reading everything and writing little bits here and there to make the tone of voice similar to what they normally would have...what they really don't like is someone who is obviously using AI to generate high level academic papers that the student is obviously not capable of. But then AI is getting good at "write this like a 9th grader would" challenges...so maybe one day there won't be homework...but school days will be longer.
ai cheats have already been a thing for years, there is aimbots that learn how you aim whilst playing and try to imitate it so it doesnt look like just any aimbot algorithm
I think that would still be obvious, though. The people that use cheats are so bad, the AI prob wouldn't be able to make it look legit. It's still going to snap the reticle to the player.
@@nyssaalghoul5872 these bots are sliding around, weapon switching, quickscoping, planting bombs and executing. stuff ive never seen in previous seasons
@@hhaste in call of duty mobile people will automate their account. they can leave their account unattended for 72 hours and come back with diamond camos and a 6.00 kd
@@horyss5496 I tried playing faceit in SEA and I had 90 ping, legit unplayable for me. Ranked ladder was so so fun until 20k where cheaters were rampant that you don't even have to play the game to win, it's just 8-9 guys running around with scout and spinning on each other.
I remember going to a League of Legends internet cafe tournament for fun, but some dweeb literally couldn't contain his anger by the second match. I think he forgot where he was for a second because after a couple of matches of raging I stood up, walked to his chair and put my hand on his shoulder. I asked him "do you need to take a break, or are you going to leave the cafe?" and his eyes were wide as he turned to me and said "... Nah, it's fine...". Thankfully he was completely silent the rest of the tournament, but damn, do I often remember that and wish I could reach my hand through the screen at ragers and cheaters... Lots of people need real world consequences to actually give a fuck, sadly.
"it may reach a point when we will not know if the player we are playing against is cheating or not" another thing to add to that is companies using AI powered bots to pad a low playerbase or to work with the SBMM system.
I hate it when games put bots into your matches and pretend to be real players. I'd still hate it if those were AI bots, but understanding how this tries to solve the issue of low player counts, that could be a good solution to keep dead multiplayer games alive for people who want to stick around.
@@Zure619 Is it worth it if the "player" youre playing against isnt even real? The main joy I get from multiplayer games is that I know I beat a real player, or played with a real person. Thats what makes me "believe" I am better than real people. But if I play against bots, it would be the same as when I was a child and thought I was better than the computer when I was playing NBA Live 97 on SNES.
That's true. It won't be for everyone. But if the tech gets far enough so that the AI actually plays reasonable, can simulate different elos and it's easy to implement, it might be worth it considering. Gives players a playground to train in without pressure and it can keep a dead multiplayer game playable. It's probably not a good fit for games like CS which require voice chat. But I think it could work well in arcade-like games like Star Wars Battlefront or other games which have a high player count per match. Or even RTS games and the AI could be set to play a specific playstyle so you can train your weak spots. Imo it has huge potential if it's applied correctly and not forced upon the players, but instead it's a feature you opt into.
@@kishi8774after a quick search, kernel level access is needed to read ram data, so hypothetically it would make it hard for traditional cheats to work. But if it was something like a hardware cheat it’s not going to help because ram access is not needed
i can't even bother playing competitive multiplayer fps games right now. incessant microtransactions and horrible cheating problems have been plaguing this genre for years and its gotten to the point where i just cannot stand it anymore
The main problem with ai is the fact that it is so much more expensive to train a sophisticated model than it is to use a model that’s already been trained. So we can just go to the models and design an anti cheat based on the way the models were trained. Simple. Maybe not easy, but simple.
That will work at first but as cheat devs get used to using AI, they can just keep on developing and training new cheats that require more time to discover. This situation will continue to grow
@@muchluck7981 of course it’ll grow but right now it cost OpenAi $100 million usd to train gpt 4. GPT 3 was around 5 million. Following that trend, gpt 5 (if such a thing will ever exist) would cost like a billion usd just to train the model on a dataset. That’s disregarding the costs of turning the model into an application (chat bot in the case of gpt 3 and 4). And then they also have to host servers capable enough of handling the model and large amounts of traffic.
It's so simple to stop cheating. Make it so you have to link your personal ID to one and only one steam account for life. If you get caught cheating, you're permanently banned for life on the steam platform. Problem solved.
I've almost exclusively played Competitive FPS since Quake 1. As much as it pains me to consider, we may wanna spend our time doing something more productive at this point rather than playing games that are 30%+ cheaters.
I still play quake for the rofls... pummels... haha... All score and no skill... all headshots and no combos... which ratio is best? The gauntlet! bwahahaha and Team assists sure... and flag caps... All the variables being added to the equation only increases the odds of another error. It really was best when it was simple.
Best thing to counter this is to go after cheat sellers/get selling cheats banned by law. That way, rather than being in a never-ending arms race, the source is taken care of, mostly solving the issue.
As if it was not possible le to sell/buy illegal good on the internet... Making something illegal does not make it impossible. It barely matters if the law is unenforcable, or if the cost of enforcing it is too high.
What is still a mystery to me - with a statistical analysis of the Stats (K/D Rate, ADR ...) gives you a good hint on Cheats on about 90% of players. Add them automatically to Overwatch - or if the stats are ridiculous just ban them for 7 Days.... and if they end up in the stat analysis again - ban them for life. What is so difficult about this?
because this will 100% get many many many innocent players banned lmao... especially higher rank players to professionals. auto banning good players is stupid
@@Ke.442i think he moreso means an automatic statistical analysis of the account ADR and performance, which could actually be pretty effective. Companies like Valve have so much data and this is already an EXTREMELY trained field (think even prediciting an individuals trajectories in interests in social media), that they could probably make a pretty robust system to add suspicious accounts into Overwatch. Then, its up to human discretion
@@alvinbontuyan8083 thats what i ment yes @Ke.442 - I didn't mean to ban people for a dirty-Bomb - but if someone has an ADR of lets say 300 or KPD of 5+ - add it to Overwatch and let a human decide...
"Impossible for devs to keep up with" is complete and utter bullshit, but if you ignore a problem for 20 years, it's not going to get easier to get rid of. Valve and CSGO/CS2 Dev has ignored a growing problem for far too long.
The frustration about cheating finally got me as well. I used to play level10 Faceit, played in ESL and German League (99dmg) for years. I am inactive now but like to play every now and then. In Matchmaking and Wingman the Game has put me in such a low rank, way beneath my skill range so almost every enemy is reporting me for cheating (I can't blame them). My trust factor got so incredibly low that now I ONLY get queued against and with Cheaters. But its not like these people even try to hide it no. It is only like getting through all the walls possible with revolver and scout. In the last 15 Games I had at least 1-2 Cheaters in 13 Games. So that's where I am now Valve. Thank you that because of your inability to work good enough on your game and anticheat, people like me who love the game and spent thousands of thousands of hours are getting punished.
Korea has people sign up for games using a government account tied to their SSN. If you get caught cheating, you will be banned from all games using that login system. I believe there are also some cases where getting caught cheating could see you fined or even jailed if you tried to fraudulently win a competition. I would love to see this implemented elsewhere, but it seems near impossible for some countries to implement such a system. Sad, because it seems very effective.
It's so simple to stop cheating. Make it so you have to link your personal ID to one and only one steam account for life. If you get caught cheating, you're permanently banned for life on the steam platform. Problem solved.
@thekatdev6007 Yea, but it does work and does limit a ton of stuff. There isnt going to be a perfect method to catch cheaters and keep them out thats going to work for everyone and every game. Thats the problem. Either tie it to something a bit more dear like your SSN. People willing to try to cheat with 3rd party applications will then be limited to SSN that they have access to - thus a few bans later they would be force to stop. While again still possible to get more SSN - you would at least slow down the cheaters ability to keep trying new accounts. Or tie it to some type of value - like having to purchase new accounts for x amount of money. Riot also did it with phone numbers - and while again - people do have access to more than one number, it did slow down the amount of accounts that were able to play in some of their more strick game play modes.
You can make it illegal without the surveillance. Cheat developers and hackers should be considered national economic threats. Games are the most lucrative part of the entertainment industry and symbiotically fuel the tech industry, allowing rampant cheating that is leading to a market crash is a national economic threat. If cheating doesn't get fixed eventually you wont be able to find a match without a cheater in any game which will lead people to quit gaming or cheat themselves. But because entertainment isn't holding up the economy the elites don't care they just like that they can make a lot of money from it. Also the games that make the most money are things like candy crush where cheating isn't an issue. Look at the state of wow and warzone which are filled with cheaters meanwhile microsoft buys activisionblizzard for candy crush and ignores the cheating in halo.
It is absolutely bonkers that we are talking about AI cheats when cheaters are permanently avoiding cheat detection by using a 5 dollar arduino. Valve anti cheating effort is negligent at best, non-existing at worst - but it is definitely not a race
the idiocy of cheat software developers is insane. If a cheat software/hardware is too good. It WILL kill multiplayer gaming in competitive games. Which will eventually kill the demand for cheats....
"Speculating which will be the last. Savoring my piece of pie" They all know it's inevitable and they just accelerate it. But at the same time they want their part of the revenue
Pretty sure companies will win this AI race. Most servers are way more powerful than peoples computers plus devs can just save the input users make and give AI as much time as it needs to determine if a person is a cheater vs AI cheats where it needs to make pretty quick choices leading to less realistic movement. Feel free to correct me if you think otherwise I'm always happy to learn more about these kinds of things.
Then the cheaters trains the AI to reproduce the inputs perfectly again, and you got another VACNET false positive banwave incident. Only LANs can save us, and we've known that sinc Punkbuster. It is also the reason anticheats don't do statistical detection and usually just scan for the memory for known cheat signatures : even a human can reproduce a raging spinbot for 2 seconds with enough luck.
I think as I get older I will move away from competitive multiplayers towards co-op and single player games. Competitive integrity of online gaming is dropping by the day and has been for 15+ years, but these latest breakthroughs with DRM and A.I along with it being so cheap and accessible for people with no real tech knowledge really are the nails in the coffin.
I am against kernel level anti cheats but they have became a necessity, i would say one thing only if you are gonna make a kernel-based anticheat, also make it availible to Mac/Linux users as there are so many games which wont work simply because of anticheat.
I think the only real way to combat cheating is to reduce the incentive for cheating. This however will most likely also reduce the incentive for legit players to play in the first place. I'd argue if the cheats have to be so subtle that I won't be able to tell - does it still ruin my fun playing? Well, if I have a stake in the game then probably yes. But if I play casually - I might not care. If the game can matchmake and put players together based on their performance - wouldn't a cheater bubble up to play with better and better players until all that they have left are obvious rage cheats? Isn't the fun of cheating in steamrolling others effortlessly? If cheats are undetectable, then it isn't going to affect legit players in a rage-unducing mannet, or it'd have to be obvious enough for the AC to kick in, right? I think this is going to achieve an equilibrium where the AC is so good it will detect anything that isn't super sneaky, and then - unless there is a monetary incentive to use cheats - the fun in cheating would be gone. Oh wait... but the game is 50% about who will loose more money gambling or paying for a texture to put on their weapon model... CS is doomed, lol. We need to go back to the business model of making games that are just fun to play and people will pay money to enjoy playing them, as opposed to people playing the game to collect/buy/gamble digital items, and/or doing shady business in that market. Once again - I think the future of games is indie.
Which isn't something they can do, most cheater accounts in paid games are bought after the game is purchased on sale legitimately, and in these scenarios they've already made their money. Selling the account with a paid for licence to a cheater to use does not lose the company out of the second sale, and they already have profited off of the product they've chosen to sell.
@@Clarkzer0 I guess you could try to argue that in court but i dont know if it would hold up. They dont lock up the gun shop owner if one of his guns gets used by a customer. China think differently about it.
@@PhoenixDog2160i think its pathetic that you think there are cheaters in low elo lobbies. I have seen maybe 10-15 actual cheaters in my 6-7k hours on competitive games even around mid elo. There are a shit ton of smurf but not many actual cheaters
@@PhoenixDog2160 if people are in the same lobbies as me and not moving up to high skill lobbies, even with cheats, then more power to them. Lord knows they need the help 😂😂
For the gamers themselves, just giving the 2 cents from the devs perspective : doing an anticheat is inherently always being behind the hackers : you almost never have a breakthrough that plugs up a hole in your engine to blanket suppress entire cheats. You can't effectively use something like VACNET yet because the false positives haven't been ironned out at all (everyone can reproduce a spinbot with their hand and get banned instantly under VACNET without any cheat). So you do as EVERY SINGLE CURRENT ANTICHEAT does : you scan memory for known cheat signatures, like variable or function names, or heuristics. Which means you have to know those. Which means new ones will always be unknown. Which means subscription cheats that update their sig everyday have already won. No dev, even the Tarkov devs, actually want cheaters on their game. That is an idiotic statement. No dev is willingly being lazy on this. Cheating is just way too easy. So unless something is done by microsoft themselves, which would undermine the "Personal" in "Personal Computer" and lose them more market shares to apple, the cheating will stay as is. Even if a miraculous AI server side comes in and bumps into the same statistical problem as VACNET. IMO, it should be made illegal at a state level. C U @ LAN.
@@Nintega2K it wouldn't recquire more detection tools, just using the existing inefficient ones, but the people caught cheating being punished would deter way more casual cheaters and effectively reduce the population of kids that cheat. There will still be hardcore cheaters that can't be caught, but at least it wouldn't be something casual.
about 80% of people in the gaming cafe i go to used to play only CS. now it's rarely to see one play CS here. we all in this gaming cafe are victims of cheating in CS. and most cheaters don't even hide it, the even flex it most of the time.
I never thought I would say this 5 years ago I think cheating in online video game should be some kind of crime it is destroying the experience of others I’m not talking jail time but a decent fine
20 years ago it wasn't called anti-cheat but some games checked on the server side the validity of certain actions and i think we could use and expand on that. So when our client trys to apply damage and send to the server "I hit all 5 players with Scout from Spawn" the server should check for line of sight, penetrable objects like doors/walls and so forth. When the server concludes that the request isn't valid the damage won't get appliedand maybe could go so far and terminate the match, send the replay the Overwatch. I can't belive that were still trying to catch cheats on the exact same maschine the cheater has authority and can obscure their doing with custom setups that aren't detectable by normal anti-cheat software.
Even if AI detection only caught obvious cheaters, that alone would be a huge win. If cheating just turned cheaters into decently skilled regular players, that would still be bad but it wouldn't ruin regular matches to the same extent. If matchmaking works, just the top ranks and very likely e-sports.
Cheats will come in all shapes and forms but there's something that always remains.... THE SCORE AND DATA High kill number and no rank? Suspicious -> probably a cheater or smurf Firing all bullets in one second? Suspicious -> blatant cheater Multiple collaterals in one single game or between games? Suspicious -> blatant cheater Is your aiming axis spotting the enemy through walls every time? Suspicious -> probably walling Are you winning 99% of your duels? Suspicious -> probably aimlock Are you moving with your knife in certain areas where you are supposed to be with gun frequently? (Mid, A or B site) Suspicious -> probably wall Are you moving too fast too often? Suspicious -> probably bunny hop The idea is to use the user data correctly, not chasing the programs installed or anything. Use the crumbs they leave behind. Will this stop the cheating spread? NO. But at least they'll try harder to hide it. And a scary cheater is a cheater you can win :-)
Yes, I've been using DMA cheats for about seven months without receiving a ban in faceit, it just a classic wall hack + aim assist. it's very difficult to detect them now.
Cheats have come full circle now. They just blend in with normal terrible players.
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I hate how a lot of things are repeated in this video like fact, when it's wholly untrue or we just know better. For example, while Overwatch was technically "re-enabled" for CS2 almost nobody has the feature actually on their account (source: WarOwl video where he mentions this). We also do have some idea of why they disabled VAC-net: It was banning innocent players because of its extremely shitty spinbot detection, which detected very high dpi changes as spinbotting. Theres tons of YT videos on this where you can see people getting falsely banned. Is anyone even doing journalism anymore, can you guys hold more than 2 thoughts at the same time while making a video? Severely disappointed, I learned nothing here.
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The conclusion is also ridiculous. The supposed AI arms race is not gonna happen because the "good" AIs will not be able to perform accurately, meaning false positive bans. This is true until something fundamental changes in the way they work. This discourages play even more than not knowing if the opponent is cheating. The answer is (unfortunately) already buried in the video: deep access to the players PC to convict cheaters with 100% certainty. Riot showed how it works and gaming companies are pissy they have to spend the dough now. BTW your rant at the end about an AC that works for all games? That's EasyAntiCheat it already exists and is on par with VAC at least.
Hot take:Just pass a Bill that makes cheating in video games illegal give them some real life consequences because if they're willing to cheat in a video game they will cheat in other aspects of life
If the anticheat could detect wh/radar it would already be much better to play. You may not win the aim-duel, but you can at least outsmart the cheater.
I might be biased but i dont think AI-Anti cheat is something that will be the next big thing. Mainly because its easily countered by ai cheats, which will lead to a point where a cheat is playing just as good as an pro and the anticheat cant detect anything without huge false positives. Do u wanna know what can differenciate between a pro and someone just "playing" like a pro? The anticheats we currently have (or their future versions). Not everything can be upgraded with AI.... I think at some point u have to choose between privacy and fairness, as cheat devs and most cheaters dont care about if the cheat is invasive or not.
Yeah anti cheat is expensive, there was this really cool game a while ago named „The Cycle“, but it went bankrupt, cause anti cheat got to expensive and still worked poorly
Unfortunately valves anti cheat is not even close to being able to keep up with cheaters, not to mention the fact that’s it’s false banned a substantial amount of people just for turning their dpi up. I’m one of those people. While I understand the importance of keeping the inner workings of VAC a secret, when stuff that wouldn’t get you banned in csgo suddenly becomes bannable however, there needs to be an update to the TOS/Fair play guidelines stating such changes. I got banned for pretending to cheat… imagine that.
So... I've mentioned this before in the forums in the past when people would complain about cheating and how bans never seem to be effective enough. So I'll say it again! Once a cheater has been verified as a cheater and the ban is justified, their access to a computer and the internet as a whole needs to be terminated. Not removed entirely to a point where they cannot possibly get a new computer and a new connection; but badly enough that they are forced to do that. This will become so expensive for them to maintain, that they WILL stop cheating. The only exception will be the individuals and/or groups who are somehow making massive amounts of money from cheating. They'll adjust accordingly at first. But eventually even they too will find themselves at a detriment due to the massive losses they will incur. Some people think this approach is too harsh. I believe those people are the type of gullible red carpets that allow for cheaters to continue to prosper. So suffice to say, I'm not really into the idea of debating this. To me, it's solid fact that the rest of you have to come to terms with.
Understandable but impossible to implement. You'd have to get all of the ISPs on board (what's in it for them?) and who'd make sure you don't access the same computer again? Computers aren't centralized like iPhones are, and law enforcement certainly won't care.
@@krob_ Soooo... about the ISPs... Recently in the states I understand, the ISPs down there have been federally(?) ordered to start cracking down on any and all piracy related torrent sites, etc. Or, something along those lines. I don't know all the details yet, but magnetdl went down not too long after. Related? I dunno. Anyways, the point here is that the ISPs can be compelled to do as they are told, if we so wish. It just requires putting the proper leverage on them. And frankly, no one except cheaters likes cheaters; so this isn't a hard decision for them to make. Even if they get some bad PR due to privacy reasons, basically only the cheaters will care... and no one cares about them... except other cheaters... To put it another way... a stupid person has no right to a stupid opinion in a hall of knowledge. This is no different. Cheaters have no right to cheat. If anything, everyone else has a right to deny them the ability to cheat, even if that means taking away their toys entirely. So again, the ISPs basically have no reason to put up a fight over this. They would be very dumb to do so. And it wouldn't take federal levels of coercion either. Just would require basically everyone who uses these ISPs to sign a broad petition against all the ISPs saying that if they support cheaters, they will lose customers. This hits them where it hurts most, especially if their business customers sign on as well. Just gotta get people to work together. Probably the hardest part. Now as for the whole centralization of computers and that part of the reply. Yeah, I agree. That does make it somewhat difficult on some levels, since it makes it so that you cannot just group them all up and remove them all from the net. Not easily that is. But it can be done. With hardware ID's and other fingerprinting methods that anti-cheat methods will use to identify a known rig to have it hardware level banned is not a new thing. Xbox is able to do it, but mostly due to being a centralized service. I think Riot games also does it. But now it's mostly because you have their app installed and their anti-cheat software as well. So, if enough game developers started taking that approach with bans instead, eventually a repertoire of data would be able to be accumulated between them. This would make it possible to have a history of cheating being done by certain rigs over the course of different games they get banned from. This is important, because if a person gets banned once, they should be able to appeal that. Twice, sure, appeal again. Three times? Nah, you're clearly up to something. Or incredibly unlucky. If the latter, sorry, tough luck. Stop looking like a cheater I guess? With that data and methodology, a record of sorts could be kept that can be updated for the ISPs to see, to correlate hardware with IP addresses on their networks. From there, they can deny service on reasonable grounds of illegal activity. Some might say cheating is not illegal, but it goes against the ToS and EULA of many if not all games; and to some extent that does make it illegal. But, if this goes through, don't expect piracy to last much longer either. This will effectively sharpen the ISPs teeth in regards to other activities they know occur, but technically 'cannot' do anything about. They normally are supposed to remain neutral. But they are able to wiggle the line a bit as to what that neutrality entails. This helps them wiggle the line. They might fight at first, but if they do, let them fail. The rest will fall in line, or be replaced. Their networks, can be taken over justifiably if need be. Nationalizing the networks of the country these ISPs operate in, globally, is not impossible. They would cry blood if that were to be attempted though. All their useful idiots would come out in full force. But that's fine by me. Just makes it easier to remove more of the problems from the internet.
In a way this sets a skillcap for cheats, which is still an improvement. Changes to gameplay itself could net even better results to resist AI, basically poison the model or require toggling of models and such to make operating cheat software harder and less fun than just playing. You'd still have diehards that want to develop cheats for the fun of "solving the puzzle" like any sort of hack, but it'd make it very hard to sell to folks that want to pay for an edge. Heck, put that pay-to-win crap in the game itself, much like all these "character abilities" but have some level of monkey-paw to it. Just gotta balance that enough to keep the whales feeding the game devs instead of the cheat devs
I don't know why companies aren't getting A.I.s to detect cheating.. It is pretty simple.. Statistics.. then autoban or move the cheaters with other cheaters. A human can only be limited as to how accurate he is with the mouse movement.
Honestly I prefer raging spinshootas over walling silver actorbots.. it’s so much better to get 13-0’d in 10mins flat than lose 11-13 to a team of literal silver 1s with the forbidden DLC
Yeah, this means that the future of fps competitive games is over, once AI cheats take over, anyone can and will be a 'pro'. They'll be no reason to have tournaments or competitions anymore because anyone could load AI cheats for both online and offline tournaments.
even if every developer forms a super coalition to form the perfect anticheat, the cheaters will create their very own "league of villians" just to counter it its a never ending cycle
ngl i thought there would be people calling that communism and that its bad, but when its about cheaters in their videogames those fools are silent. thats actually even funnier
@@ssj2_snake it's not silly or anything. It is what happening right now in real-world gaming. The more secure your game the more sophisticated the cheating software would be. The cheat devs would put time into developing it because of the demand. If there's a demand, there'll be cheat software. The op stated fact, it's a never-ending cycle. But atleast the game devs are trying their best to combat the cheat devs to make their life harder developing this cheat software.
I just went outside and played IRL games when my friend got too salty on the screen peeking in Perfect Dark (or Twisted Metal) multiplayer... Online is a different beast though... I think it's just fine to avoid cheaters or ridicule them. Definition of a poser when we get our suspicions in game: speak of it. If they aren't yet, cheating they'll take it as a compliment... And if they are: well for tournaments make them get to bring nothing but their beverage of choice and their clothes in, to the already provided equipment to play. W8, soon they'll make wireless hacks for being better than you are at Vidya AND gamer
Problem is, an ai can only reach full capacity if it has 0 shackles hindering it. Problem for valve is their entire pro and streamer scene is overflowing with cheaters aswell as all their 3rd party match making services and premier. I guess they are not letting the A.I go full rampage in pattern detection due to not wanting the biggest PR distaster in Esports history if their whole scene gets banned pretty much by their own anti-cheat considering how long they have ignored people exposing them.
At this point. I feel like Microsoft is the only company who could actually stop cheating. But it may seem invasive. But if they dont do it. No one will probably stop them.
What CS would greatly profit from is an anti cheat that at least would delete all the blatant cheaters of which there are a lot as well. And they are even more infuriating to play against when you know since round 3 that a guy is cheating
If Valve payed 500 people $100,000 a year to watch demos and ban cheaters, it would cost $50 million a year and be far more effective than anti cheat. When overwatch was around 95% of the time within 2 rounds you knew they were cheating. One person working 8 hours a day could probably watch lets say 200 demos. Multiply by 500 employees that's 100,000 demos watched per day. That would clean things up pretty damn fast. I'm sure Valve could streamline it to optimize the demo feeds and make software so it was efficient to watch and issue bans. They could even require 2 or 3 separate reviewers to agree on a ban and still have plenty of capacity in fact 500 people is probably far too many. The answer is likely Valve just doesn't care.
anti-cheat in 2050 are going to be ais that search all your files and check what they are before booting up the game or you will need to have this specific screen recorder live-streamed to somewhere not just a demo view. The second one makes some sense but fps would be a problem for some people
The first one is something they already do. Thats the idea behind the current anti-cheat. It scans in memory changes and applications. The other issue is most of these cheaters also know that and started to move the software off their computers and onto 3rd party system that does all the work anyways and taps into the mouse/keyboard to perform the actions. Though, in theory, they could force you to live-stream your hands keyboard/mouse and try to figure it out that way, but at that stage it would be pretty much be a game stopper there for the normal player. This would only work with pro+players who already are kind of doing that anyways.
i am worried about the innocent players who are gonna get caught in the crossfire, ai theft detection at wal-mart already arrested countless innocent people as is.
The solution is to not have centralized matchmaking. Cheats have existed since the dawn of time but community run servers had better-- human-- moderation. Bring back the dedicated servers, it is after all how TF2 is surviving despite the bot epidemic. In the end AI anticheat cannot be held accountable for a false positive, which there will be many of. And even more as mentioned in the video, when AI cheats become indistinguishable.
I don't think AI anticheat failed - I think it works perfectly but it shows that pros also cheat. Think how much PR damage Valve would suffer, as well as potential lawsuits around pickems, betting and sponsorships if that information got out. They absolutely cannot afford the cash cow to end. For the foreseeable future, it's single player only games for me. Fortunately, there are a lot to choose from.
This is exactly why I see kernel level anticheat as completely pointless. It does not matter how deep the access of your anticheat has, it cannot detect AI cheats since they will be running on another system. Only thing it controls is m&k or controller inputs. It is useless to give these companies access to your PC, when it's already halfway obsolete because of this. The only way to detect these cheats is anticheat that is AI-based. It's only a question of how quickly these AI cheats become cheap and accessible to the point that the cheaters currently opting for the easiest to find cheap or free cheat, will instead be using AI cheats.
It is always this ONE Clip from GDC 2018 where this guy talks about VAC and it's been 6 years and honestly, not only did they not talk about VAC ever since, they apparently also stopped working on it entirely... Maybe that's why they don't talk about it...
Cheats will always be part of competitive. The same way steroids are in sports. Today, there are a bunch of (if not all) pros using aim assist. If one team is using, the others must use to compete.
if we ever get to a point where Cloud gaming is economically viable I think that's might be the best way to counter cheaters (it also affect piracy I think?) there would still be some visual-based AI cheats, but at least no more idk 'game engine' cheats I guess? but there might be social costs along with it, cause at this point players no longer own hardware or software of the game idk, we'd hate that ?_?
cs2 always had cheater problems. Even those "heroes" that turn his cheats ON when there's a cheater on the enemy team. I lost count how many times i was playing on a good day, hitting headshots and sprays and enemy team called me a cheater, 1 player log out, and logback full rage claiming that if i'm cheating he should be allowed to cheat too. You can't even be a good player in that game that other calls you a cheater and start to spin bc he's bad at the game!
At this point i just dont understand anymore: the ammount of time and effort people put into cheating, they could have done so much better things. Actually playing the game, getting employed with the skills the developed cheating etc. Why waste your time in such an unfullfilling way
Yeah, so Riot has put more money into anti-cheat than any other game company, and the result is that now the cheats running in Valorant is so sophisticated that people literally get praise in the game for being really good at the game. And the result of cheats getting more sophisticated in Valorant will also spill over to other games like counter-strike, so thanks Riot, thanks for making a counter-strike competitor, thanks for going full ham on the anti-cheat and forcing cheat developers to to become so good at creating cheats that we will soon not even be able to tell that anyone is cheating in any fps-game. The future of gaming truly seems bright nowadays.
There are other dynamics that need to be considered. If AI AC makes it so that cheaters look indistinguishable from real players, then guess what, people won't actually care much. Because they play like they are legit, meaning they WILL lose rounds and matches. Look at the situation right now, legit players are getting demotivated not because they are losing, but because they are getting blatantly cheated on and nothing is being done. This is not to say cheat detection should plateau indefinitely, efforts should still be made to detect advanced cheats. Right now literally obvious and impossible moves are pulled off by cheaters, making people question whether the AC actually even exists at all. AI Cheats will be expensive, the price will act as a natural barrier too. You need to AC to that level where the price will start playing a bigger role in the minds of the cheaters too.
When they say indistinguishable, they don't mean in terms of accuracy. Rather, it's about the movement of the cursor. For example, if you try moving quickly in a straight line, you're not really moving in a straight line. It's more of an arch with jitters in between. Even if you're using a gamepad, it's similar. You can't perfectly keep an analog stick in one position. The same thing with aiming. When your crosshair lands on a person, one of two things happens. Either you slow down as you get close to the person, or you end up overshooting your target, and there's zigzagging back and forth before your crosshair actually lands on the player. Previous aimbots would just immediately go to the enemy perfectly. And that's how they were initially caught. The anti-cheat algorithms would look for perfection in movements. That's what's happening, and how the AI cheats got around these anti-cheat algorithms. They added in random imperfections. The AI will still perfectly land on you and kill you before you can respond, but it will be an imperfect path of landing on you. They'll still have their 20+ KDR, their 90% win rate, etc. But when you, or the anti-cheat algorithms look at the video, the aiming will look natural.
@@Nytegard What you're talking about doesn't require AI and has been around well before the recent AI trend. Near the end of Overwatch in CSGO, you'd see players who looked totally legit till there was one major mess up on their end, after that point they would turn blatant. Before that point, mouse movements would look totally naturally, no perfect flicks, minor over/under shoots etc.
@@aaymanbd The cheats might give you options, but the cheats are very much still robotic in nature when it comes to movement. And that's the point. They're at the point it's very difficult for humans to distinguish between what's real and fake, whereas they're blatantly obvious to an AI anti-cheat algorithm.
why are the rage hackers priority #1? Closet cheaters are so much worse than rage hackers. I'd much rather know for a fact someone is cheating than be unsure for the whole game. Plus games against rage hackers are usually pretty quick
Because if they aren't priority #1 we end up in a situation similar to TF2. You don't need to be a human to ragecheat, however you do need to be a a human (and be somewhat skilled at the game) to hide the fact that you are cheating. And ragecheating is relatively easy to automatically detect. An automated system handling ragecheaters results in overwatch being able to do its job again: Determine if someone is cheating with the help of human intervention. Cases of ragecheating don't need human intervention to determine whether something phishy is going on, yet overwatch was filled to the brim with such cases for years on end, resulting in closetcheaters having the time of their life because with overwatch being near useless and vac being... well a usermode anticheat their risk of getting banned were close to zero.
if an anti cheat program was available to all game devs then cheat devs only need to get a hold of the software and counter it, at this point it becomes the question of what can't be countered, how can you create something that can't be countered, its only a mater of time until the latest anti cheat is countered and the measures need to shift again
Tbh, it's a bad idea to let any facet of something be handed over to AI. Imagine your entire steam account getting banned because you fell slightly outside of the parameters of what was considered normal behavior. High risk, not so high reward here. Valve made the right decision not to include this, atleast not without having humans verify AI decisions.
I love how people still think overwatch is back. It is not. It was a move from Mr McDonalds book, don't talk about your anticheat. The "Overwatch" bans were detection bans and overwatch was used to disguise the detection wave.
remember when screen peaking was the cheats we had to worry about goldeneye
Blanket and duct tape was the best anticheat
@@CronaTheAwperWhat if you are playing on 1 screen?
It's so simple to stop cheating.
Make it so you have to link your personal ID to one and only one steam account for life.
If you get caught cheating, you're permanently banned for life on the steam platform.
Problem solved.
@@turkeyleg72 That was exactly the solution to playing on one screen though. Hide it right down the middle of the line.
@@norrecvizharan1177 Ok but I mean if you are playing on a TV siting far away from the screen
this is like college students using ai to do work while professors using ai to see if students are using ai or not
lolol, yup...never works. The student can always change a few words here and there...add a few sentences...and boom...indistinguishable. From what I've seen...teachers actually don't care for AI abusers like this since they are actually still reading everything and writing little bits here and there to make the tone of voice similar to what they normally would have...what they really don't like is someone who is obviously using AI to generate high level academic papers that the student is obviously not capable of. But then AI is getting good at "write this like a 9th grader would" challenges...so maybe one day there won't be homework...but school days will be longer.
ai cheats have already been a thing for years, there is aimbots that learn how you aim whilst playing and try to imitate it so it doesnt look like just any aimbot algorithm
Call of duty mobile has that ‘feature’
@@negritotenfold how so, could you explain further
I think that would still be obvious, though. The people that use cheats are so bad, the AI prob wouldn't be able to make it look legit. It's still going to snap the reticle to the player.
@@nyssaalghoul5872 these bots are sliding around, weapon switching, quickscoping, planting bombs and executing. stuff ive never seen in previous seasons
@@hhaste in call of duty mobile people will automate their account. they can leave their account unattended for 72 hours and come back with diamond camos and a 6.00 kd
I miss being able to play CS. Half of the games are cheaters and the other half are people who are clueless
that very much does sound like CS to me though.
@@TomJakobWactual zoomer
@@delroku the translation tho x'D
Well, try faceit
@@horyss5496 I tried playing faceit in SEA and I had 90 ping, legit unplayable for me. Ranked ladder was so so fun until 20k where cheaters were rampant that you don't even have to play the game to win, it's just 8-9 guys running around with scout and spinning on each other.
The internet really has crippled one of the best anti-cheats in the history of mankind; the fist.
I remember going to a League of Legends internet cafe tournament for fun, but some dweeb literally couldn't contain his anger by the second match. I think he forgot where he was for a second because after a couple of matches of raging I stood up, walked to his chair and put my hand on his shoulder. I asked him "do you need to take a break, or are you going to leave the cafe?" and his eyes were wide as he turned to me and said "... Nah, it's fine...". Thankfully he was completely silent the rest of the tournament, but damn, do I often remember that and wish I could reach my hand through the screen at ragers and cheaters... Lots of people need real world consequences to actually give a fuck, sadly.
@@JoyThiefTheBand until the rager is bigger than you and you got to step back lol
you can still use that if you get the ip ;)
"it may reach a point when we will not know if the player we are playing against is cheating or not" another thing to add to that is companies using AI powered bots to pad a low playerbase or to work with the SBMM system.
I hate it when games put bots into your matches and pretend to be real players. I'd still hate it if those were AI bots, but understanding how this tries to solve the issue of low player counts, that could be a good solution to keep dead multiplayer games alive for people who want to stick around.
@@Zure619 Is it worth it if the "player" youre playing against isnt even real? The main joy I get from multiplayer games is that I know I beat a real player, or played with a real person. Thats what makes me "believe" I am better than real people. But if I play against bots, it would be the same as when I was a child and thought I was better than the computer when I was playing NBA Live 97 on SNES.
That's true. It won't be for everyone. But if the tech gets far enough so that the AI actually plays reasonable, can simulate different elos and it's easy to implement, it might be worth it considering. Gives players a playground to train in without pressure and it can keep a dead multiplayer game playable.
It's probably not a good fit for games like CS which require voice chat. But I think it could work well in arcade-like games like Star Wars Battlefront or other games which have a high player count per match. Or even RTS games and the AI could be set to play a specific playstyle so you can train your weak spots. Imo it has huge potential if it's applied correctly and not forced upon the players, but instead it's a feature you opt into.
Unless valve program bots to be racist and filled with hate, I'm pretty sure my opponents are real 😂
Microsoft is planning to restrict access to Windows kernel, so no more kernel level anti cheats
but at what cost
the same goes for cheats, right? ---- right?!!
*rejects windows update*
@@kishi8774after a quick search, kernel level access is needed to read ram data, so hypothetically it would make it hard for traditional cheats to work. But if it was something like a hardware cheat it’s not going to help because ram access is not needed
They will just workaround it to cheat meanwhile the anti cheat becomes useless @@kishi8774
I literally don't play shooters anymore because of the cheaters
@MethFace same, I quit eating and drinking water because if cheaters.
@@MethFace Ironically, they're doing you a favour
sure
@@tmacrust ?
It's true.
Didn't think I'd see a hot mulligan fit on TheScore
HELL YEAH!
HELL YEAH!
HELL YEAH!
HELL YEAH!
i can't even bother playing competitive multiplayer fps games right now. incessant microtransactions and horrible cheating problems have been plaguing this genre for years and its gotten to the point where i just cannot stand it anymore
Indie games are the answer. I hope I'll bring my own to the table before the world ends.
@@unfa00 if i still had the patience id be playing them but tbh im probably just gonna sell my pc and buy a nice sound system for my car 😭
The main problem with ai is the fact that it is so much more expensive to train a sophisticated model than it is to use a model that’s already been trained. So we can just go to the models and design an anti cheat based on the way the models were trained. Simple. Maybe not easy, but simple.
That will work at first but as cheat devs get used to using AI, they can just keep on developing and training new cheats that require more time to discover. This situation will continue to grow
@@muchluck7981 of course it’ll grow but right now it cost OpenAi $100 million usd to train gpt 4. GPT 3 was around 5 million. Following that trend, gpt 5 (if such a thing will ever exist) would cost like a billion usd just to train the model on a dataset. That’s disregarding the costs of turning the model into an application (chat bot in the case of gpt 3 and 4). And then they also have to host servers capable enough of handling the model and large amounts of traffic.
expensive? It's not. I made an ai cheat like this with only 900 images labeled by hand. Only to proof the concept, not using it.
wanted to add. the 900 images it's only for one game.
It's so simple to stop cheating.
Make it so you have to link your personal ID to one and only one steam account for life.
If you get caught cheating, you're permanently banned for life on the steam platform.
Problem solved.
I've almost exclusively played Competitive FPS since Quake 1. As much as it pains me to consider, we may wanna spend our time doing something more productive at this point rather than playing games that are 30%+ cheaters.
It’s quite pathetic 25 years of experience down the loo
It sucks. But a little less when you realize It was a once-in-humanity era, and we got to experience it.
We gonna get drafted soon and back to our main quest as human, enjoy this peaceful era while it lasts
I still play quake for the rofls... pummels... haha... All score and no skill... all headshots and no combos... which ratio is best? The gauntlet! bwahahaha and Team assists sure... and flag caps... All the variables being added to the equation only increases the odds of another error. It really was best when it was simple.
@@vonxoliver Then we'll play FPS IRL.. just without respawns. Hardcore server vibes.
Best thing to counter this is to go after cheat sellers/get selling cheats banned by law.
That way, rather than being in a never-ending arms race, the source is taken care of, mostly solving the issue.
As if it was not possible le to sell/buy illegal good on the internet...
Making something illegal does not make it impossible. It barely matters if the law is unenforcable, or if the cost of enforcing it is too high.
Great, more laws that are impossible to enforce and only make the one implementing the law gain some attention so they can further their own agendas.
The cheat providers will just make a new account on another site and keep spreading the cheats.
The only way to stop it is jail time/heavy fines for cheat developers making millions off of killing our hobby..
this turning into the war against drugs
has literally anyone been invited to overwatch? the devs said they brought it back but not a single person has shown proof they've been part of it
We’re an exclusive club - and you’re not in it
What is still a mystery to me - with a statistical analysis of the Stats (K/D Rate, ADR ...) gives you a good hint on Cheats on about 90% of players. Add them automatically to Overwatch - or if the stats are ridiculous just ban them for 7 Days.... and if they end up in the stat analysis again - ban them for life. What is so difficult about this?
because this will 100% get many many many innocent players banned lmao... especially higher rank players to professionals. auto banning good players is stupid
@@Ke.442i think he moreso means an automatic statistical analysis of the account ADR and performance, which could actually be pretty effective. Companies like Valve have so much data and this is already an EXTREMELY trained field (think even prediciting an individuals trajectories in interests in social media), that they could probably make a pretty robust system to add suspicious accounts into Overwatch. Then, its up to human discretion
@@alvinbontuyan8083 thats what i ment yes
@Ke.442 - I didn't mean to ban people for a dirty-Bomb - but if someone has an ADR of lets say 300 or KPD of 5+ - add it to Overwatch and let a human decide...
@@Ke.442 If you have a level 20 with a 8 kd in Warzone it's more than likely not a professional player. Common sense makes what OP said understandable
"Impossible for devs to keep up with" is complete and utter bullshit, but if you ignore a problem for 20 years, it's not going to get easier to get rid of. Valve and CSGO/CS2 Dev has ignored a growing problem for far too long.
The frustration about cheating finally got me as well.
I used to play level10 Faceit, played in ESL and German League (99dmg) for years. I am inactive now but like to play every now and then. In Matchmaking and Wingman the Game has put me in such a low rank, way beneath my skill range so almost every enemy is reporting me for cheating (I can't blame them). My trust factor got so incredibly low that now I ONLY get queued against and with Cheaters. But its not like these people even try to hide it no. It is only like getting through all the walls possible with revolver and scout. In the last 15 Games I had at least 1-2 Cheaters in 13 Games.
So that's where I am now Valve. Thank you that because of your inability to work good enough on your game and anticheat, people like me who love the game and spent thousands of thousands of hours are getting punished.
Korea has people sign up for games using a government account tied to their SSN. If you get caught cheating, you will be banned from all games using that login system. I believe there are also some cases where getting caught cheating could see you fined or even jailed if you tried to fraudulently win a competition. I would love to see this implemented elsewhere, but it seems near impossible for some countries to implement such a system. Sad, because it seems very effective.
Cool, just gotta sideload a false positive on your opponents' computer to eliminate them forever.
surveillance is not the solution.
It's so simple to stop cheating.
Make it so you have to link your personal ID to one and only one steam account for life.
If you get caught cheating, you're permanently banned for life on the steam platform.
Problem solved.
@thekatdev6007 Yea, but it does work and does limit a ton of stuff. There isnt going to be a perfect method to catch cheaters and keep them out thats going to work for everyone and every game. Thats the problem. Either tie it to something a bit more dear like your SSN. People willing to try to cheat with 3rd party applications will then be limited to SSN that they have access to - thus a few bans later they would be force to stop. While again still possible to get more SSN - you would at least slow down the cheaters ability to keep trying new accounts. Or tie it to some type of value - like having to purchase new accounts for x amount of money. Riot also did it with phone numbers - and while again - people do have access to more than one number, it did slow down the amount of accounts that were able to play in some of their more strick game play modes.
You can make it illegal without the surveillance. Cheat developers and hackers should be considered national economic threats. Games are the most lucrative part of the entertainment industry and symbiotically fuel the tech industry, allowing rampant cheating that is leading to a market crash is a national economic threat. If cheating doesn't get fixed eventually you wont be able to find a match without a cheater in any game which will lead people to quit gaming or cheat themselves. But because entertainment isn't holding up the economy the elites don't care they just like that they can make a lot of money from it. Also the games that make the most money are things like candy crush where cheating isn't an issue. Look at the state of wow and warzone which are filled with cheaters meanwhile microsoft buys activisionblizzard for candy crush and ignores the cheating in halo.
Basically Homeless did a great video on this topic about a year ago too. Def encourage people to check that out tol
It is absolutely bonkers that we are talking about AI cheats when cheaters are permanently avoiding cheat detection by using a 5 dollar arduino. Valve anti cheating effort is negligent at best, non-existing at worst - but it is definitely not a race
"TURBO LOSERS!",...i LOVE that!! 🤣🤣
the idiocy of cheat software developers is insane. If a cheat software/hardware is too good. It WILL kill multiplayer gaming in competitive games. Which will eventually kill the demand for cheats....
I mean, they still make millions of dollars until that happens
"Speculating which will be the last. Savoring my piece of pie" They all know it's inevitable and they just accelerate it. But at the same time they want their part of the revenue
Pretty sure companies will win this AI race. Most servers are way more powerful than peoples computers plus devs can just save the input users make and give AI as much time as it needs to determine if a person is a cheater vs AI cheats where it needs to make pretty quick choices leading to less realistic movement. Feel free to correct me if you think otherwise I'm always happy to learn more about these kinds of things.
Then the cheaters trains the AI to reproduce the inputs perfectly again, and you got another VACNET false positive banwave incident. Only LANs can save us, and we've known that sinc Punkbuster. It is also the reason anticheats don't do statistical detection and usually just scan for the memory for known cheat signatures : even a human can reproduce a raging spinbot for 2 seconds with enough luck.
I think as I get older I will move away from competitive multiplayers towards co-op and single player games. Competitive integrity of online gaming is dropping by the day and has been for 15+ years, but these latest breakthroughs with DRM and A.I along with it being so cheap and accessible for people with no real tech knowledge really are the nails in the coffin.
I am against kernel level anti cheats but they have became a necessity, i would say one thing only if you are gonna make a kernel-based anticheat, also make it availible to Mac/Linux users as there are so many games which wont work simply because of anticheat.
I think the only real way to combat cheating is to reduce the incentive for cheating.
This however will most likely also reduce the incentive for legit players to play in the first place.
I'd argue if the cheats have to be so subtle that I won't be able to tell - does it still ruin my fun playing? Well, if I have a stake in the game then probably yes. But if I play casually - I might not care. If the game can matchmake and put players together based on their performance - wouldn't a cheater bubble up to play with better and better players until all that they have left are obvious rage cheats?
Isn't the fun of cheating in steamrolling others effortlessly? If cheats are undetectable, then it isn't going to affect legit players in a rage-unducing mannet, or it'd have to be obvious enough for the AC to kick in, right?
I think this is going to achieve an equilibrium where the AC is so good it will detect anything that isn't super sneaky, and then - unless there is a monetary incentive to use cheats - the fun in cheating would be gone.
Oh wait... but the game is 50% about who will loose more money gambling or paying for a texture to put on their weapon model...
CS is doomed, lol.
We need to go back to the business model of making games that are just fun to play and people will pay money to enjoy playing them, as opposed to people playing the game to collect/buy/gamble digital items, and/or doing shady business in that market.
Once again - I think the future of games is indie.
As far as what's actually happening in game, VAC = Valve Allows Cheats
Need to start giving cheats prison time. It wont be long now, all they have to do is prove to a court that the cheaters are costing them money.
Which isn't something they can do, most cheater accounts in paid games are bought after the game is purchased on sale legitimately, and in these scenarios they've already made their money. Selling the account with a paid for licence to a cheater to use does not lose the company out of the second sale, and they already have profited off of the product they've chosen to sell.
@@Clarkzer0 I guess you could try to argue that in court but i dont know if it would hold up. They dont lock up the gun shop owner if one of his guns gets used by a customer. China think differently about it.
it should be fraud if they stream! making money of hacking is insane. twitch needs to crack down on it even though that must be awfully hard for them
And how did you plan to force Russia to hand out their hackers that does a good job making Americans upset?
The main problem is, that "legit" wallhacking isnt detectable without intrusive anticheat.
As a gamer of average skill, I thank SBMM for keeping cheaters out of my games.
I think it's adorably you think people who are just as bad as you and me aren't using cheats in silver ranked games.
@@PhoenixDog2160i think its pathetic that you think there are cheaters in low elo lobbies.
I have seen maybe 10-15 actual cheaters in my 6-7k hours on competitive games even around mid elo.
There are a shit ton of smurf but not many actual cheaters
@@PhoenixDog2160 if people are in the same lobbies as me and not moving up to high skill lobbies, even with cheats, then more power to them. Lord knows they need the help 😂😂
For the gamers themselves, just giving the 2 cents from the devs perspective : doing an anticheat is inherently always being behind the hackers : you almost never have a breakthrough that plugs up a hole in your engine to blanket suppress entire cheats. You can't effectively use something like VACNET yet because the false positives haven't been ironned out at all (everyone can reproduce a spinbot with their hand and get banned instantly under VACNET without any cheat). So you do as EVERY SINGLE CURRENT ANTICHEAT does : you scan memory for known cheat signatures, like variable or function names, or heuristics. Which means you have to know those. Which means new ones will always be unknown. Which means subscription cheats that update their sig everyday have already won.
No dev, even the Tarkov devs, actually want cheaters on their game. That is an idiotic statement. No dev is willingly being lazy on this. Cheating is just way too easy. So unless something is done by microsoft themselves, which would undermine the "Personal" in "Personal Computer" and lose them more market shares to apple, the cheating will stay as is. Even if a miraculous AI server side comes in and bumps into the same statistical problem as VACNET. IMO, it should be made illegal at a state level.
C U @ LAN.
If by illegal you mean the cheating, wouldn't that require a SIGNIFICANT amount of surveillance in order to actually punish offenders?
@@Nintega2K it wouldn't recquire more detection tools, just using the existing inefficient ones, but the people caught cheating being punished would deter way more casual cheaters and effectively reduce the population of kids that cheat. There will still be hardcore cheaters that can't be caught, but at least it wouldn't be something casual.
this is why i stopped cheating in cs too many tryhards
The AI WARS BEGIN ... well have AI's competing at the end ..
"we don't talk about VAC because it makes it less effective" LOL
about 80% of people in the gaming cafe i go to used to play only CS. now it's rarely to see one play CS here. we all in this gaming cafe are victims of cheating in CS. and most cheaters don't even hide it, the even flex it most of the time.
I never thought I would say this 5 years ago I think cheating in online video game should be some kind of crime it is destroying the experience of others I’m not talking jail time but a decent fine
20 years ago it wasn't called anti-cheat but some games checked on the server side the validity of certain actions and i think we could use and expand on that. So when our client trys to apply damage and send to the server "I hit all 5 players with Scout from Spawn" the server should check for line of sight, penetrable objects like doors/walls and so forth. When the server concludes that the request isn't valid the damage won't get appliedand maybe could go so far and terminate the match, send the replay the Overwatch.
I can't belive that were still trying to catch cheats on the exact same maschine the cheater has authority and can obscure their doing with custom setups that aren't detectable by normal anti-cheat software.
“You need to have Vanguard running to play”
Even if AI detection only caught obvious cheaters, that alone would be a huge win. If cheating just turned cheaters into decently skilled regular players, that would still be bad but it wouldn't ruin regular matches to the same extent. If matchmaking works, just the top ranks and very likely e-sports.
Lowkey, if all goes bad, one day physical sports would become more alluring than online games.
We back in the Punkbuster days where only LAN can be taken into account to measure skill. C U @ LAN Aceu
tbh an anticheat in a game like csgo is supposed to filter out obvious cheaters. Players wont get upset about cheaters that play 99% human.
Cheats will come in all shapes and forms but there's something that always remains.... THE SCORE AND DATA
High kill number and no rank? Suspicious -> probably a cheater or smurf
Firing all bullets in one second? Suspicious -> blatant cheater
Multiple collaterals in one single game or between games? Suspicious -> blatant cheater
Is your aiming axis spotting the enemy through walls every time? Suspicious -> probably walling
Are you winning 99% of your duels? Suspicious -> probably aimlock
Are you moving with your knife in certain areas where you are supposed to be with gun frequently? (Mid, A or B site) Suspicious -> probably wall
Are you moving too fast too often? Suspicious -> probably bunny hop
The idea is to use the user data correctly, not chasing the programs installed or anything. Use the crumbs they leave behind.
Will this stop the cheating spread? NO. But at least they'll try harder to hide it.
And a scary cheater is a cheater you can win :-)
I don't understand why people would want to spend $1000's into cheating. What a waste of money.
We need more games with dedicated servers that fans can run themselves. That way, moderators can kick and ban cheaters and hackers.
This is gonna end up in being allowed to have a single account which is bound to your ID, and I hate that idea
wow we have trending AI Cheats and 0 anti cheat companies using AI in their anticheat
Yes, I've been using DMA cheats for about seven months without receiving a ban in faceit, it just a classic wall hack + aim assist. it's very difficult to detect them now.
Cheats have come full circle now. They just blend in with normal terrible players.
I hate how a lot of things are repeated in this video like fact, when it's wholly untrue or we just know better. For example, while Overwatch was technically "re-enabled" for CS2 almost nobody has the feature actually on their account (source: WarOwl video where he mentions this). We also do have some idea of why they disabled VAC-net: It was banning innocent players because of its extremely shitty spinbot detection, which detected very high dpi changes as spinbotting. Theres tons of YT videos on this where you can see people getting falsely banned. Is anyone even doing journalism anymore, can you guys hold more than 2 thoughts at the same time while making a video?
Severely disappointed, I learned nothing here.
The conclusion is also ridiculous. The supposed AI arms race is not gonna happen because the "good" AIs will not be able to perform accurately, meaning false positive bans. This is true until something fundamental changes in the way they work. This discourages play even more than not knowing if the opponent is cheating. The answer is (unfortunately) already buried in the video: deep access to the players PC to convict cheaters with 100% certainty. Riot showed how it works and gaming companies are pissy they have to spend the dough now. BTW your rant at the end about an AC that works for all games? That's EasyAntiCheat it already exists and is on par with VAC at least.
Sometimes things are dying. Online Games will die out. Its sad, but it is how it is.
Hot take:Just pass a Bill that makes cheating in video games illegal give them some real life consequences because if they're willing to cheat in a video game they will cheat in other aspects of life
If the anticheat could detect wh/radar it would already be much better to play. You may not win the aim-duel, but you can at least outsmart the cheater.
Valve: "Talking about VAC would make it less effective..." -> it never worked wtf 🤣
I might be biased but i dont think AI-Anti cheat is something that will be the next big thing. Mainly because its easily countered by ai cheats, which will lead to a point where a cheat is playing just as good as an pro and the anticheat cant detect anything without huge false positives. Do u wanna know what can differenciate between a pro and someone just "playing" like a pro? The anticheats we currently have (or their future versions). Not everything can be upgraded with AI.... I think at some point u have to choose between privacy and fairness, as cheat devs and most cheaters dont care about if the cheat is invasive or not.
Yeah anti cheat is expensive, there was this really cool game a while ago named „The Cycle“, but it went bankrupt, cause anti cheat got to expensive and still worked poorly
Unfortunately valves anti cheat is not even close to being able to keep up with cheaters, not to mention the fact that’s it’s false banned a substantial amount of people just for turning their dpi up.
I’m one of those people.
While I understand the importance of keeping the inner workings of VAC a secret, when stuff that wouldn’t get you banned in csgo suddenly becomes bannable however, there needs to be an update to the TOS/Fair play guidelines stating such changes.
I got banned for pretending to cheat… imagine that.
By pretending to cheat I mean throwing my mouse across my desk and spinning ridiculously fast in spawn
valve did the bare minimum, they didn;t even try seriously
@@ragtag0 did they ever remove the ban?
this is literally the first thing i thought of when valve said they're gonna make AI anticheat.
So... I've mentioned this before in the forums in the past when people would complain about cheating and how bans never seem to be effective enough. So I'll say it again!
Once a cheater has been verified as a cheater and the ban is justified, their access to a computer and the internet as a whole needs to be terminated. Not removed entirely to a point where they cannot possibly get a new computer and a new connection; but badly enough that they are forced to do that. This will become so expensive for them to maintain, that they WILL stop cheating.
The only exception will be the individuals and/or groups who are somehow making massive amounts of money from cheating. They'll adjust accordingly at first. But eventually even they too will find themselves at a detriment due to the massive losses they will incur.
Some people think this approach is too harsh. I believe those people are the type of gullible red carpets that allow for cheaters to continue to prosper.
So suffice to say, I'm not really into the idea of debating this. To me, it's solid fact that the rest of you have to come to terms with.
Understandable but impossible to implement. You'd have to get all of the ISPs on board (what's in it for them?) and who'd make sure you don't access the same computer again? Computers aren't centralized like iPhones are, and law enforcement certainly won't care.
@@krob_ Soooo... about the ISPs... Recently in the states I understand, the ISPs down there have been federally(?) ordered to start cracking down on any and all piracy related torrent sites, etc. Or, something along those lines. I don't know all the details yet, but magnetdl went down not too long after. Related? I dunno.
Anyways, the point here is that the ISPs can be compelled to do as they are told, if we so wish. It just requires putting the proper leverage on them.
And frankly, no one except cheaters likes cheaters; so this isn't a hard decision for them to make. Even if they get some bad PR due to privacy reasons, basically only the cheaters will care... and no one cares about them... except other cheaters...
To put it another way... a stupid person has no right to a stupid opinion in a hall of knowledge. This is no different. Cheaters have no right to cheat. If anything, everyone else has a right to deny them the ability to cheat, even if that means taking away their toys entirely.
So again, the ISPs basically have no reason to put up a fight over this. They would be very dumb to do so.
And it wouldn't take federal levels of coercion either. Just would require basically everyone who uses these ISPs to sign a broad petition against all the ISPs saying that if they support cheaters, they will lose customers.
This hits them where it hurts most, especially if their business customers sign on as well.
Just gotta get people to work together. Probably the hardest part.
Now as for the whole centralization of computers and that part of the reply. Yeah, I agree. That does make it somewhat difficult on some levels, since it makes it so that you cannot just group them all up and remove them all from the net. Not easily that is.
But it can be done. With hardware ID's and other fingerprinting methods that anti-cheat methods will use to identify a known rig to have it hardware level banned is not a new thing. Xbox is able to do it, but mostly due to being a centralized service. I think Riot games also does it. But now it's mostly because you have their app installed and their anti-cheat software as well.
So, if enough game developers started taking that approach with bans instead, eventually a repertoire of data would be able to be accumulated between them.
This would make it possible to have a history of cheating being done by certain rigs over the course of different games they get banned from. This is important, because if a person gets banned once, they should be able to appeal that. Twice, sure, appeal again. Three times? Nah, you're clearly up to something. Or incredibly unlucky. If the latter, sorry, tough luck. Stop looking like a cheater I guess?
With that data and methodology, a record of sorts could be kept that can be updated for the ISPs to see, to correlate hardware with IP addresses on their networks. From there, they can deny service on reasonable grounds of illegal activity. Some might say cheating is not illegal, but it goes against the ToS and EULA of many if not all games; and to some extent that does make it illegal.
But, if this goes through, don't expect piracy to last much longer either. This will effectively sharpen the ISPs teeth in regards to other activities they know occur, but technically 'cannot' do anything about. They normally are supposed to remain neutral.
But they are able to wiggle the line a bit as to what that neutrality entails. This helps them wiggle the line. They might fight at first, but if they do, let them fail. The rest will fall in line, or be replaced.
Their networks, can be taken over justifiably if need be. Nationalizing the networks of the country these ISPs operate in, globally, is not impossible.
They would cry blood if that were to be attempted though. All their useful idiots would come out in full force.
But that's fine by me. Just makes it easier to remove more of the problems from the internet.
In a way this sets a skillcap for cheats, which is still an improvement. Changes to gameplay itself could net even better results to resist AI, basically poison the model or require toggling of models and such to make operating cheat software harder and less fun than just playing. You'd still have diehards that want to develop cheats for the fun of "solving the puzzle" like any sort of hack, but it'd make it very hard to sell to folks that want to pay for an edge. Heck, put that pay-to-win crap in the game itself, much like all these "character abilities" but have some level of monkey-paw to it. Just gotta balance that enough to keep the whales feeding the game devs instead of the cheat devs
We need to make hand cams standard and demand them from every FPS streamer and tournament player.
I think Valve already tested their AI model on TF2
I don't know why companies aren't getting A.I.s to detect cheating.. It is pretty simple.. Statistics.. then autoban or move the cheaters with other cheaters. A human can only be limited as to how accurate he is with the mouse movement.
Honestly I prefer raging spinshootas over walling silver actorbots.. it’s so much better to get 13-0’d in 10mins flat than lose 11-13 to a team of literal silver 1s with the forbidden DLC
Yeah, this means that the future of fps competitive games is over, once AI cheats take over, anyone can and will be a 'pro'. They'll be no reason to have tournaments or competitions anymore because anyone could load AI cheats for both online and offline tournaments.
even if every developer forms a super coalition to form the perfect anticheat, the cheaters will create their very own "league of villians" just to counter it
its a never ending cycle
I know right. and all the devs know that there is no fullproof anticheat. if it runs in 1010101, it can be bypassed xD
Life is indeed magical
ngl i thought there would be people calling that communism and that its bad, but when its about cheaters in their videogames those fools are silent. thats actually even funnier
This is just silly and sounds like an argument that the cheaters themselves would use
@@ssj2_snake it's not silly or anything. It is what happening right now in real-world gaming. The more secure your game the more sophisticated the cheating software would be. The cheat devs would put time into developing it because of the demand. If there's a demand, there'll be cheat software. The op stated fact, it's a never-ending cycle. But atleast the game devs are trying their best to combat the cheat devs to make their life harder developing this cheat software.
I just went outside and played IRL games when my friend got too salty on the screen peeking in Perfect Dark (or Twisted Metal) multiplayer... Online is a different beast though... I think it's just fine to avoid cheaters or ridicule them. Definition of a poser when we get our suspicions in game: speak of it. If they aren't yet, cheating they'll take it as a compliment... And if they are: well for tournaments make them get to bring nothing but their beverage of choice and their clothes in, to the already provided equipment to play. W8, soon they'll make wireless hacks for being better than you are at Vidya AND gamer
Problem is, an ai can only reach full capacity if it has 0 shackles hindering it. Problem for valve is their entire pro and streamer scene is overflowing with cheaters aswell as all their 3rd party match making services and premier. I guess they are not letting the A.I go full rampage in pattern detection due to not wanting the biggest PR distaster in Esports history if their whole scene gets banned pretty much by their own anti-cheat considering how long they have ignored people exposing them.
At this point. I feel like Microsoft is the only company who could actually stop cheating. But it may seem invasive. But if they dont do it. No one will probably stop them.
We just need a KYC system. So we can identify the cheaters by their legal government name and punish them.
What CS would greatly profit from is an anti cheat that at least would delete all the blatant cheaters of which there are a lot as well. And they are even more infuriating to play against when you know since round 3 that a guy is cheating
Well, if Valve wanted to get rid of most of the cheaters, they would just make CS "expensive" and not free to play...
If Valve payed 500 people $100,000 a year to watch demos and ban cheaters, it would cost $50 million a year and be far more effective than anti cheat. When overwatch was around 95% of the time within 2 rounds you knew they were cheating. One person working 8 hours a day could probably watch lets say 200 demos. Multiply by 500 employees that's 100,000 demos watched per day. That would clean things up pretty damn fast. I'm sure Valve could streamline it to optimize the demo feeds and make software so it was efficient to watch and issue bans. They could even require 2 or 3 separate reviewers to agree on a ban and still have plenty of capacity in fact 500 people is probably far too many. The answer is likely Valve just doesn't care.
anti-cheat in 2050 are going to be ais that search all your files and check what they are before booting up the game or you will need to have this specific screen recorder live-streamed to somewhere not just a demo view. The second one makes some sense but fps would be a problem for some people
The first one is something they already do. Thats the idea behind the current anti-cheat. It scans in memory changes and applications. The other issue is most of these cheaters also know that and started to move the software off their computers and onto 3rd party system that does all the work anyways and taps into the mouse/keyboard to perform the actions. Though, in theory, they could force you to live-stream your hands keyboard/mouse and try to figure it out that way, but at that stage it would be pretty much be a game stopper there for the normal player. This would only work with pro+players who already are kind of doing that anyways.
By 2050 people will probably be controlling their mouse movements via neurolinks anyways
2050 anti cheat is a program searching through your neruolink and fucking up causing you to be a vegetable
If it's THAT hard to tell I hope that means the fight is more fair than it sounds
i am worried about the innocent players who are gonna get caught in the crossfire, ai theft detection at wal-mart already arrested countless innocent people as is.
The solution is to not have centralized matchmaking. Cheats have existed since the dawn of time but community run servers had better-- human-- moderation. Bring back the dedicated servers, it is after all how TF2 is surviving despite the bot epidemic. In the end AI anticheat cannot be held accountable for a false positive, which there will be many of. And even more as mentioned in the video, when AI cheats become indistinguishable.
Several of my friends who play cs2 just want vanguard for the game now... And I agree with them.
Cheating is still absolutely rampant in CS2, they have not fixed anything so far.
Maybe devs need to leverage the strengths individual users don't have, like a lot more ultra low latency compute.
I don't think AI anticheat failed - I think it works perfectly but it shows that pros also cheat. Think how much PR damage Valve would suffer, as well as potential lawsuits around pickems, betting and sponsorships if that information got out. They absolutely cannot afford the cash cow to end.
For the foreseeable future, it's single player only games for me. Fortunately, there are a lot to choose from.
This is exactly why I see kernel level anticheat as completely pointless. It does not matter how deep the access of your anticheat has, it cannot detect AI cheats since they will be running on another system. Only thing it controls is m&k or controller inputs. It is useless to give these companies access to your PC, when it's already halfway obsolete because of this. The only way to detect these cheats is anticheat that is AI-based. It's only a question of how quickly these AI cheats become cheap and accessible to the point that the cheaters currently opting for the easiest to find cheap or free cheat, will instead be using AI cheats.
going back to lan parties may soon become the only solution
It is always this ONE Clip from GDC 2018 where this guy talks about VAC and it's been 6 years and honestly, not only did they not talk about VAC ever since, they apparently also stopped working on it entirely... Maybe that's why they don't talk about it...
Cheats will always be part of competitive. The same way steroids are in sports.
Today, there are a bunch of (if not all) pros using aim assist.
If one team is using, the others must use to compete.
if we ever get to a point where Cloud gaming is economically viable
I think that's might be the best way to counter cheaters (it also affect piracy I think?)
there would still be some visual-based AI cheats, but at least no more idk 'game engine' cheats I guess?
but there might be social costs along with it, cause at this point players no longer own hardware or software of the game
idk, we'd hate that ?_?
Economically viable? It needs to be functional first. Nobody wants to play a competitive game with so many layers of added latency.
cs2 always had cheater problems.
Even those "heroes" that turn his cheats ON when there's a cheater on the enemy team.
I lost count how many times i was playing on a good day, hitting headshots and sprays and enemy team called me a cheater, 1 player log out, and logback full rage claiming that if i'm cheating he should be allowed to cheat too.
You can't even be a good player in that game that other calls you a cheater and start to spin bc he's bad at the game!
The same people making the cheat probably also making the anti. Big money. This will never go away
LOL eventually every lobby is just going to be cheaters watching their monitors as their AI cheats play
At this point i just dont understand anymore: the ammount of time and effort people put into cheating, they could have done so much better things. Actually playing the game, getting employed with the skills the developed cheating etc. Why waste your time in such an unfullfilling way
Anti-cheat in FPS games is a losing battle against cheaters. Computers are just way better than humans in aiming.
Volve is like a country with 30 soldiers where all 30 are corrupt.
so Value has the dataset the issue is training the data and what perimeters you have put to detect it...
Yeah, so Riot has put more money into anti-cheat than any other game company, and the result is that now the cheats running in Valorant is so sophisticated that people literally get praise in the game for being really good at the game. And the result of cheats getting more sophisticated in Valorant will also spill over to other games like counter-strike, so thanks Riot, thanks for making a counter-strike competitor, thanks for going full ham on the anti-cheat and forcing cheat developers to to become so good at creating cheats that we will soon not even be able to tell that anyone is cheating in any fps-game. The future of gaming truly seems bright nowadays.
There are other dynamics that need to be considered. If AI AC makes it so that cheaters look indistinguishable from real players, then guess what, people won't actually care much. Because they play like they are legit, meaning they WILL lose rounds and matches.
Look at the situation right now, legit players are getting demotivated not because they are losing, but because they are getting blatantly cheated on and nothing is being done. This is not to say cheat detection should plateau indefinitely, efforts should still be made to detect advanced cheats.
Right now literally obvious and impossible moves are pulled off by cheaters, making people question whether the AC actually even exists at all. AI Cheats will be expensive, the price will act as a natural barrier too. You need to AC to that level where the price will start playing a bigger role in the minds of the cheaters too.
When they say indistinguishable, they don't mean in terms of accuracy.
Rather, it's about the movement of the cursor. For example, if you try moving quickly in a straight line, you're not really moving in a straight line. It's more of an arch with jitters in between. Even if you're using a gamepad, it's similar. You can't perfectly keep an analog stick in one position.
The same thing with aiming. When your crosshair lands on a person, one of two things happens. Either you slow down as you get close to the person, or you end up overshooting your target, and there's zigzagging back and forth before your crosshair actually lands on the player. Previous aimbots would just immediately go to the enemy perfectly.
And that's how they were initially caught. The anti-cheat algorithms would look for perfection in movements.
That's what's happening, and how the AI cheats got around these anti-cheat algorithms. They added in random imperfections. The AI will still perfectly land on you and kill you before you can respond, but it will be an imperfect path of landing on you. They'll still have their 20+ KDR, their 90% win rate, etc. But when you, or the anti-cheat algorithms look at the video, the aiming will look natural.
@@Nytegard What you're talking about doesn't require AI and has been around well before the recent AI trend.
Near the end of Overwatch in CSGO, you'd see players who looked totally legit till there was one major mess up on their end, after that point they would turn blatant. Before that point, mouse movements would look totally naturally, no perfect flicks, minor over/under shoots etc.
@@aaymanbd The cheats might give you options, but the cheats are very much still robotic in nature when it comes to movement. And that's the point. They're at the point it's very difficult for humans to distinguish between what's real and fake, whereas they're blatantly obvious to an AI anti-cheat algorithm.
why are the rage hackers priority #1? Closet cheaters are so much worse than rage hackers. I'd much rather know for a fact someone is cheating than be unsure for the whole game. Plus games against rage hackers are usually pretty quick
Because if they aren't priority #1 we end up in a situation similar to TF2. You don't need to be a human to ragecheat, however you do need to be a a human (and be somewhat skilled at the game) to hide the fact that you are cheating.
And ragecheating is relatively easy to automatically detect. An automated system handling ragecheaters results in overwatch being able to do its job again: Determine if someone is cheating with the help of human intervention. Cases of ragecheating don't need human intervention to determine whether something phishy is going on, yet overwatch was filled to the brim with such cases for years on end, resulting in closetcheaters having the time of their life because with overwatch being near useless and vac being... well a usermode anticheat their risk of getting banned were close to zero.
if an anti cheat program was available to all game devs then cheat devs only need to get a hold of the software and counter it, at this point it becomes the question of what can't be countered, how can you create something that can't be countered, its only a mater of time until the latest anti cheat is countered and the measures need to shift again
also known as "progress"
Tbh, it's a bad idea to let any facet of something be handed over to AI. Imagine your entire steam account getting banned because you fell slightly outside of the parameters of what was considered normal behavior. High risk, not so high reward here. Valve made the right decision not to include this, atleast not without having humans verify AI decisions.
I love how people still think overwatch is back. It is not. It was a move from Mr McDonalds book, don't talk about your anticheat. The "Overwatch" bans were detection bans and overwatch was used to disguise the detection wave.
AI cheats are ass atm but it's harder to detect. it can also be hidden while you're on stream.