Hi Danae, I have been a fan of your channel for some time now. I am a mature (71 YO) pianist, and not having been blessed with a natural technique, nor having teacher(s) throughout my life who actually talked about technique, I always felt frustrated with my level of progress. I now have a wonderful teacher who understands the mechanical processes and has the ability to explain and demonstrate proper forearm, arm, and hand management. (No, not a Taubman acolyte!) You have wonderful communication skills, and I frequently tell her how you demonstrate certain topics. I played (and still do) A LOT of 4H music in the fifty or so years that I have been playing, and first came across Marie Jaell's music in a book of duets published by Hildegarde Music in their early days - a suite of waltzes, I believe it was. The long-overdue interest in music by women composers these past years has brought her music into focus, and just recently I acquired a reprint of her 1904 treatise, L'Intelligence et le Rythme dans les Mouvements Artistiques. No doubt you have the same book, but unlike me, have read and digested the whole thing. (I do speak French, but it has been resting on my bedside table more than in my hands...) MJ makes a great case for the approach that one plays the piano with one's brain, not just one's hands. The concept of mental practice was shown to me just last year, and it is a powerful tool, but difficult in that it takes patience and discipline to develop. I do hope that you continue to demonstrate her ideas for us in future vids. And I look forward to being able to hear your performance of her concerto, either here on YT or CD! Best regards from Jersey City.
This is a highly interesting video. I, too, had never heard of her and will now take a closer look at this important musician. Thank you for spreading the word about her!
Understanding that sound is produced on the piano by the velocity a key is hit (there is no other influence except using pedals) the series of sounds together create the illusion of much more than just key hits. The piano "sings" through the creation of what is more than the collection of hits...))) I think we all agree that producing such flow shout not hurt fingers with their very limited muscles, but involve the wrist, forearm, arm, shoulders, neck, back, the whole body -- and mind. The more natural or dance-like we play, using gravity, micro movements, circular shapes, rotation of the forearm, wrists, hand pisition, going in and out of the key bed, usually all natural movements, a relaxed weight of the arm in the keys, no tension in shoulders, the better we play. Mindfulness while playing, of course, is the more important part, but it requires another discussion. I think, if something does not feel the natural movement, it will be noticable in the sound produced. And a big mistake, in my experience, is a single lifting up of the fingers, isolating them. It is not so natural. There may always be exceptions, but they are very rare. Usually this involves not over-curling the fingers but keeping their natural shape. There are many good thoughts here. I just do not know if we all talk about the same with the terminology used. I found the Taubman method particularly helpful describing the process even though I am not an exponent of any method. But it is worth trying to understand Taubman in detail. Lots of parallels will be found. Thank you for raising the subject. You are a great musician, and I love learning from you, listening and practicing with an open mind. Thank you so much.)))
I think of it this way: there is a certain amount of tension for the depression of the key. But instead of “lifting” the finger, I would say to release that tension just enough to allow the piano to “push” your finger off/up and the key back to its resting position, kind of like a buoy. 🛟 In this way, the piano talks back to you as well.
The tension topic is interesting. As an older player who is unlearning old habits, I’m sure that she is not advocating nervous tension or the tension in one finger due to activity in another, rather she would be advocating intention. For instance, when I totally relax my hands, my playing can become sloppy. Maybe I want to play with curved fingers, but if I fully relax, my fingers could flatten. Fingers that should rest in the middle of a black key might drift to the edge. So I want control, but not unnecessary stress or unintentional reactions from finger to finger. It’s unfortunate that the translation is to tension, as we associate this with unintentional, nervous stress. When she mentions lazy playing, that’s the opposite extreme. Intentional control without wasted effort and energy seems to be the goal.
I am overwhelmed with your playing on the Mozart/ Mendelssohn CD. It’s immaculate, and brimming with musicality from the very first note. Your rapport with Las Vogt is obvious, and in the second mvt. you play transcendentally- the mark of an great pianist. I have said before that I am just happy to listen to you alone, because you have everything as an artist that I could ever need. Thankyou R. ❤️ R. R. R.
You refer to the interaction between the musical thoughts and the movements our fingers makes. This interaction exist also in our ears. The human ear has tens of thousands afferent and efferent nerves. You would think that an ear only sents sound to the brain (afferent nerves). But the brain also sents signals to our ears (efferent nerves)!This interaction is of great importance in experiencing the music sensation.
I am trying to watch the video you made in the past and gives it a like and see what I can learn from the video, I am Calvin and I live in Taipei, hope one day I will get a chance to meet you in person, you are an amazing teacher 😊😊😊😊
Would you say that her method has added to your overall playing experience? I am not convinced as to the constant idea of tension throughout playing- of course, we will never know whether this idea produced a revolutionary quality of sound, as we‘ve no recording of her, I believe. Openin the mind to someone else‘s approach is interesting and , if there’s something which you can add to your own technique from her own thoughts, then it‘s been worthwhile. Richard.
Musical tension (the tension between notes in a chord or melodic line) should not be confused with tension in the muscles of the body when it is not needed and sometimes even makes it impossible to play in a relaxed manner. Feeling musical tension while being relaxed in the body is very important.
I believe the tension is referenced to the tendons in that one tendon is on top of the finger one below and they should never be active at same time ie finger stiff as board but one tendon should always be active ie lifting up or pushing down , hence circular motion the continuous tension enables one tendon to always be active never two at same time in same finger as these appose each other and create stiffness which is the real problem more than tension as there is always tension in the tendon its only tiring when they fight against each other. There are no muscles in the fingers its the muscles controlling their tendons that have to be conciously controlled to act separately the top tendon or bottom never both at same time. This is relevant in many sports and the complete relaxation of contracting muscle on one tendon has to be completely relaxed switched off before the opposite muscle contracts its corresponding tendon for peak performance and power
Danae, thank you for all the wonderful videos. This one reminds me a little of the Dorothy Taubman technique and I am wondering if you are familiar with it and have an opinion? I have a friend who swore by it.
I want to comment on the "smooth fingering" the fingering that is musical. I think that some pieces like for example Chopin etude op 10 n. 8 the last page has a very odd right hand run (mostly piano) that is difficult to finger. Especially if you play from the page (not memorized) and stretch the hand to "sense" the keyboard it will feel unplayable. But once you memorized it and allow a musical phrasing of it, by that i mean that there will places where you can break the flow then it's much more playable. The very odd last descent with both hands in unison is utmostly uncomfortable to play. My right hand almost has to play only the top two notes out of the four notes pattern to avoid getting cramped and stuck. It seems that no wrist position will help. This is a passage where all technical approaches fail to find a fingering that works. Even so, it's just very unnatural for the hand to play that page.
How is this circular movement incorporated in quick passages , is it used over a whole phrase , as I think it would be difficult on each individual note or can the circular movement be more a pulling back of the finger over the key? Thanks.
Jamais entendu parler de cette femme. Cependant, relâcher la tension semble productif et efficace, mais limite légèrement la technique et donne un son fluide mais moelleux. Le mouvement du poignet, je n'utilise pas comme méthode mais uniquement quand c'est nécessaire (ex : the tempest 2mvt de beethoven). Lever les doigts, c'est le point technique que je travaille actuellement sur le Grand gallop chromatique de Liszt. Sur le doigté, utiliser le doigté de Chopin donne un son particulier et le doigté sur op 10 n 4 est un exercice pour les doigts. A chaque fois que je m'engage trop dans la technique, je repense à kalkbrenner : poignets qui ne tombe pas et a l'époque ils faisaient lire un texte tout en jouant...
![[FULL EP.16] เซียนพาลุย "เผือก-ฟรอยด์" กรี๊ดลั่น จนปูหนี | เฮ็ดอย่างเซียนหรั่ง | One Playground](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/FsqUvwS3b-Y/mqdefault.jpg)
Hi Danae, I have been a fan of your channel for some time now. I am a mature (71 YO) pianist, and not having been blessed with a natural technique, nor having teacher(s) throughout my life who actually talked about technique, I always felt frustrated with my level of progress. I now have a wonderful teacher who understands the mechanical processes and has the ability to explain and demonstrate proper forearm, arm, and hand management. (No, not a Taubman acolyte!) You have wonderful communication skills, and I frequently tell her how you demonstrate
certain topics.
I played (and still do) A LOT of 4H music in the fifty or so years that I have been playing, and first came across Marie Jaell's music in a book of duets published by Hildegarde Music in their early days - a suite of waltzes, I believe it was. The long-overdue interest in music by women composers these past years has brought her music into focus, and just recently I acquired a reprint of her 1904 treatise, L'Intelligence et le Rythme dans les Mouvements Artistiques. No doubt you have the same book, but unlike me, have read and digested the whole thing. (I do speak French, but it has been resting on my bedside table more than in my hands...)
MJ makes a great case for the approach that one plays the piano with one's brain, not just one's hands. The concept of mental practice was shown to me just last year, and it is a powerful tool, but difficult in that it takes patience and discipline to develop. I do hope that you continue to demonstrate her ideas for us in future vids.
And I look forward to being able to hear your performance of her concerto, either here on YT or CD!
Best regards from Jersey City.
This is a highly interesting video. I, too, had never heard of her and will now take a closer look at this important musician. Thank you for spreading the word about her!
Understanding that sound is produced on the piano by the velocity a key is hit (there is no other influence except using pedals) the series of sounds together create the illusion of much more than just key hits. The piano "sings" through the creation of what is more than the collection of hits...)))
I think we all agree that producing such flow shout not hurt fingers with their very limited muscles, but involve the wrist, forearm, arm, shoulders, neck, back, the whole body -- and mind.
The more natural or dance-like we play, using gravity, micro movements, circular shapes, rotation of the forearm, wrists, hand pisition, going in and out of the key bed, usually all natural movements, a relaxed weight of the arm in the keys, no tension in shoulders, the better we play. Mindfulness while playing, of course, is the more important part, but it requires another discussion.
I think, if something does not feel the natural movement, it will be noticable in the sound produced.
And a big mistake, in my experience, is a single lifting up of the fingers, isolating them. It is not so natural. There may always be exceptions, but they are very rare. Usually this involves not over-curling the fingers but keeping their natural shape.
There are many good thoughts here. I just do not know if we all talk about the same with the terminology used.
I found the Taubman method particularly helpful describing the process even though I am not an exponent of any method. But it is worth trying to understand Taubman in detail. Lots of parallels will be found.
Thank you for raising the subject. You are a great musician, and I love learning from you, listening and practicing with an open mind. Thank you so much.)))
I think of it this way: there is a certain amount of tension for the depression of the key. But instead of “lifting” the finger, I would say to release that tension just enough to allow the piano to “push” your finger off/up and the key back to its resting position, kind of like a buoy. 🛟 In this way, the piano talks back to you as well.
The tension topic is interesting. As an older player who is unlearning old habits, I’m sure that she is not advocating nervous tension or the tension in one finger due to activity in another, rather she would be advocating intention. For instance, when I totally relax my hands, my playing can become sloppy. Maybe I want to play with curved fingers, but if I fully relax, my fingers could flatten. Fingers that should rest in the middle of a black key might drift to the edge. So I want control, but not unnecessary stress or unintentional reactions from finger to finger.
It’s unfortunate that the translation is to tension, as we associate this with unintentional, nervous stress. When she mentions lazy playing, that’s the opposite extreme. Intentional control without wasted effort and energy seems to be the goal.
I am overwhelmed with your playing on the Mozart/ Mendelssohn CD.
It’s immaculate, and brimming with musicality from the very first note.
Your rapport with Las Vogt is obvious, and in the second mvt. you play transcendentally- the mark of an great pianist.
I have said before that I am just happy to listen to you alone, because you have everything as an artist that I could ever need.
Thankyou
R. ❤️
R.
R.
R.
I see that you’ve gone back to your ‘hand’ wave at the end- are you saving your fingers for a workout!
😊
You refer to the interaction between the musical thoughts and the movements our fingers makes. This interaction exist also in our ears. The human ear has tens of thousands afferent and efferent nerves. You would think that an ear only sents sound to the brain (afferent nerves). But the brain also sents signals to our ears (efferent nerves)!This interaction is of great importance in experiencing the music sensation.
Merci beaucoup de nous faire decouvrir cette femme compositeur et ses recherches intéressantes
I am trying to watch the video you made in the past and gives it a like and see what I can learn from the video, I am Calvin and I live in Taipei, hope one day I will get a chance to meet you in person, you are an amazing teacher 😊😊😊😊
So interesting! Thank you!
Would you say that her method has added to your overall playing experience?
I am not convinced as to the constant idea of tension throughout playing- of course, we will never know whether this idea produced a revolutionary quality of sound, as we‘ve no recording of her, I believe.
Openin the mind to someone else‘s approach is interesting and , if there’s something which you can add to your own technique from her own thoughts, then it‘s been worthwhile.
Richard.
This is a lovely thing to do for Marie‘s legacy!
😊
Musical tension (the tension between notes in a chord or melodic line) should not be confused with tension in the muscles of the body when it is not needed and sometimes even makes it impossible to play in a relaxed manner. Feeling musical tension while being relaxed in the body is very important.
I believe the tension is referenced to the tendons in that one tendon is on top of the finger one below and they should never be active at same time ie finger stiff as board but one tendon should always be active ie lifting up or pushing down , hence circular motion the continuous tension enables one tendon to always be active never two at same time in same finger as these appose each other and create stiffness which is the real problem more than tension as there is always tension in the tendon its only tiring when they fight against each other. There are no muscles in the fingers its the muscles controlling their tendons that have to be conciously controlled to act separately the top tendon or bottom never both at same time. This is relevant in many sports and the complete relaxation of contracting muscle on one tendon has to be completely relaxed switched off before the opposite muscle contracts its corresponding tendon for peak performance and power
I am loving your channel! You are so beautiful and talented! Thank you very much!
I just received your CD with Lars- Mozart and Mendelssohn.
So happy!
R.
Danae, thank you for all the wonderful videos. This one reminds me a little of the Dorothy Taubman technique and I am wondering if you are familiar with it and have an opinion? I have a friend who swore by it.
interesting. Maybe one should use the word free instead of relaxed 🤔
I want to comment on the "smooth fingering" the fingering that is musical. I think that some pieces like for example Chopin etude op 10 n. 8 the last page has a very odd right hand run (mostly piano) that is difficult to finger. Especially if you play from the page (not memorized) and stretch the hand to "sense" the keyboard it will feel unplayable. But once you memorized it and allow a musical phrasing of it, by that i mean that there will places where you can break the flow then it's much more playable. The very odd last descent with both hands in unison is utmostly uncomfortable to play. My right hand almost has to play only the top two notes out of the four notes pattern to avoid getting cramped and stuck. It seems that no wrist position will help. This is a passage where all technical approaches fail to find a fingering that works. Even so, it's just very unnatural for the hand to play that page.
How is this circular movement incorporated in quick passages , is it used over a whole phrase , as I think it would be difficult on each individual note or can the circular movement be more a pulling back of the finger over the key? Thanks.
Controlled tension and involuntary tension are two different things.
Yes, you are completely right, and that is probably also the basis of Jaëll’s argument!
Jamais entendu parler de cette femme. Cependant, relâcher la tension semble productif et efficace, mais limite légèrement la technique et donne un son fluide mais moelleux.
Le mouvement du poignet, je n'utilise pas comme méthode mais uniquement quand c'est nécessaire (ex : the tempest 2mvt de beethoven).
Lever les doigts, c'est le point technique que je travaille actuellement sur le Grand gallop chromatique de Liszt.
Sur le doigté, utiliser le doigté de Chopin donne un son particulier et le doigté sur op 10 n 4 est un exercice pour les doigts.
A chaque fois que je m'engage trop dans la technique, je repense à kalkbrenner : poignets qui ne tombe pas et a l'époque ils faisaient lire un texte tout en jouant...
So implistic, so vague, no base of alleged neuropsychological evidence.
When one could list a dozen factors of fingering choice.