The issue I think is that APC and midlane players have had to deal with a kit that feels terrible to play (Very big scaling fall off in the late game even as a mage, nerfs to base AD makes CSing feel awful). And while her kit is quite different from Sona, once you reach mid to late game, you're kind of forced to pump out healing with W like Sona when your ultimate is on cooldown - you can't build her damage because she scales so horribly with full AP builds. Lux and Velkoz can be balanced around being played mid, support and APC by getting them to build as artillery poke mages as support, so why couldn't they do the same for Seraphine? She lost a lot of her original identity as a scaling mage as a result of being balanced around support.
Forcing Seraphine to be a support just sucks. I swear rito just does the opposite of what they really need to do since if they had only just reworked her w to be better for solo lane she would have remained as an incredible mid mage.
you go where the players are and Seraphine players have always been support, she has never been popular mid compared to support, it sucks for you, but there are over 160 characters, you don't get to balance that in a vacuum.
@@AnimeFrankReynolds Dude she was originally built to go mid, I promise you if they had just reworked W noone would have taken her as a support as she sucks there. She is an enchanter with only 1 heal spell that has an over 15 second cd. 'Go where the players are' don't make me laugh in this game, do you have any idea how much champs have gone from role to role? What so we balance Brand for support as he is now a support champ? Or what about Lulu? There was a time she was extremely popular mid/top and had an awful pick rate in sup, why was she helped? Rito needs to learn to tighten their belt and at least try to support their original idea. 'Sucks for you' my ass, go take a shit mate rather than to reply like that.
She was consistenty played as support in ~80%+ of games since day one. She was not forced to be a support. She was 47% wr support for nearly her all existence yet still mostly played as a support. People are simply disinterested in playing her as mid/apc despite them being historically her best roles (still true for APC tho)
@@AnimeFrankReynoldsriot should learn to stick to their guns for once and not immediately give up on a champion's intended role (she was always intended to be a mid laner) all because support players parasitically latch onto them. It happened to brand, zyra, swain, pantheon the list goes on... It's time they break the cycle of letting supports just destroy champs in their intended solo lanes.
"we dont tolerate champions in botlane being 54% winrate" meanwhile some enchanter support sitting at 55%+ wr in my elo for months tarik being the biggest offender together with sona
@bravepotatoe7513 well then nilah got hotfix gutted even though she is a onetrick champ same for old aurelion. one trick champ is not an excuse for it to be broken
“Let’s sort bot lane by winrate” *there isn’t a SINGLE marksman on his screen* They could start by designing supports that aren’t good at things that carries want to do to win a game.
@ now go look at the pick rate for Tristana and Lucian mid during the horrible “ADC Meta”, and take a look at their win rates while your at it. Better nerf IE and the value of gold again lol
@@paybuck1237 “needed a lot of skill” translates to “only matters for grandmaster and above” aka you’re describing a problem that effects less than one half of 1% of the entire player base. They were not oppressive to 160 million people, they were oppressive in a few pro leagues and certain high elo lobbies. It’s a non issue for everyone with a normal life
Notice he doesn't dare to talk about player satisfaction or her being enjoyable, because she isn't :) Let's face it, her kit is not enjoyable as a support, and it's not super unique in terms of what it does and the balance team is treating her as if she has tons of utility that can compensate the lack of numbers and scalings. Lulu is always gonna feel good to play cause all elements on her kit are meant to support her team, thus her numbers dont scale. Seraphine in her current state will always feel underwhelming, cause most of her abilities are meant to do damage and she just doesnt, throughout the whole course of a game.
@JanetyPatinety maybe not 1 to 1, sure. You could make the case that overpowered champions get inflated pick rates. But _nothing?_ I don't think that's right. How are you separating the difference between popularity and "fun to play"?
Why are so many "Seraphine solo players" so delusional. Seraphine release was sooo strong midlane but no one wanted to play her. Even the stats site he used showed that.
Sera really just doesn't work well as a support, I don't think any small number adjustments like this will have long-term success at closing the gap between bot and supp. She may seem like an enchanter support, but her actual skills don't work as the support as well. She's made to follow-up on a support, not be the main support. E extends CC, W spreads sustain to become team-wide, R wants a frontline. But supports are the ones bringing cc, sustain, and frontline. Make her the support, and she'll never make full use of her power. Not many ADCs bring this kind of utility for Sera to use. Long-term, I don't think these changes will maintain stability because it doesn't address the actual reason why Sera is so much better having a support than being the support. I wish we could get her balanced around mid again, but I'll probably just have to prepare for more nerfs in the future...
She ltierally was 51.50% wr during summer event and then got gutted to below 50% wr as support... Just revert that nerf partially and she'll be alright
I feel like to be a better support, Seraphine just needs nerfs to her Q and E damage (Buffs to base damage, nerfs to scaling). Buffs to the W that scale well with level, to encourage a W max, and then maybe a buff to the bonus on W if it gets the double cast. Maybe reduce her base hp and ad by a hair too
The issue is not many people enjoy seraphine support when her only role is to press W when her ultimate is on cooldown. You might as well play Sona when your entire job becomes to just pump out healing late game.
@@boxbird5723 Maybe give some supporting attributes to her Q. Perhaps her Q gives some attack speed to allies it hits. Then her E is the slow/root of course. This would make her pair well with melee adc's like Samira
Almost every single change you mentioned has happened in the past; these were exactly the levers they were playing with to attempt to even out her supp/bot performance
She was alot better support when she got released😂 nowadays i would rather pick xerath, her E is unreliable her W is shiet mostly cuz again scales terrible, even tho i havent tried full support on her for years... im pretty sure they havent buffed it to a satisfying level😂and her Q got nerfed to the ground, tho for a good reason😂😅 so no matter what stage your at in the game it is bad😂 sure if you go full ap800 ap it should get you somewhere properly but half of that you barely make a scratch tho, there is just better mage supports out there😂
Oh yeah it's that time of the month again where we try to justify forcing a kit that doesn't work well in support, to go in support because we at Riot fucked up big time when designing Seraphine and now we're stuck with a community at odds with the champion's intended style of play. But since we're a small indie company we won't adress the issue at the core, instead tweaking numbers until both support and carry Seraphine suck to play because it just doesn't work support but we have to put her there.
Riot still doesn’t understand that Seraphine as a bot lane carry is still OP as are all the other mages. Either kill APC as a role or nerf every mage that’s 54% aka Lux. Yes APC as a role isn’t popular, but it’s absolutely oppressive. Just have mages mid/support as it’s obviously better to balance two roles than 3 or more.
I mean, the guy has addressed this. th-cam.com/video/4zkOPDevHjk/w-d-xo.htmlsi=Qodjm2iV88eS0-pM&t=40 If you want to get them nerfed then just play them. You might like exclusively playing ADCs, but a strong argument can be made that only having adcs botlane makes the game more stale which I agree with.
@@roganjohnston Mages are strong bot because mages are designed to counter adcs. Just like when brusiers and tanks are picked mid they destroy mages because they are designed to counter mages. Nerfing them for doing their job is not the direction you go. What you need to do is find ways to make them go back to their lane. Nerfing them tho makes them even weaker in their lane and encourages them to be in bot lane even more.
@@roganjohnston thats a horseshit argument, especially after riot just gutted the entire fucking ADC class because tristana almost hit a 50% winrate in mid.
part of the problem (imo) is that ad carry players REFUSE to learn how to lane against ap carries, you have to be way more aware of your opponent's threat ranges or get mega chunked
Sure, it must be the R the reason people compare Seraphine and Sona. It can't be that the Q is a poke tool in blue located in the same button in Sona and Seraphine. Or that the W is a heal and shield tool in both Seraphine and Sona. And that the E can serve as a movement impairing tool (slow) in both Sona and Seraphine. That both champions get an empowered autoattack after using a spell. And that Sona's and Seraphine's R is basically the exact same skillshot if it wasn't because Seraphine's extends in length. Surely the community is just drinking Koolaid, right? It can't be that *every button from Sona's kit has a parallel with another from Seraphine's kit.* Don't get me wrong, I like Seraphine, but denying these details is kind of being deliberately obtuse.
Soraka: Q = Poke Took, W = Heal, E = Movement Impairment. Yes, there are a few more similarities in the fact that Ults are similar and the music theming, but simply pointing to a few similar abilities in similar locations doesn't factor that sometimes that just fits from a comfort standpoint on where the abilities should be place. You've also not factored any differences: Sona has an ability that grants her an out of combat MS buff. Seraphine doesn't. Sona's passive can reduce the CD of her ult. Seraphine's doesn't. Every basic ability of Sona's (with insanely short CDs that she reduces over the course of the game) buff's her team. Seraphine only has 1 with a 22 sec CD (and no, her notes don't buff the next auto of her allies. It just grants her next AA more damage for each ally nearby. It's still a self buff.) Sona has an exhaust in her basic abilities where Seraphine has a stun. "Denying these details is kind of being deliberately obtuse." Simply looking at the win rate by match time on LoLalytics will show they play insanely differently. Sona has an abysmal WR to start that then scale up into monstrous numbers if she gets to 20 minutes. Currently there's a 11% swing in WR from pre 15 minutes to post 20. Sure Seraphine's does show some slightly scaling current, but that's at most 2%. (And TBH her graph at the time of writing this shows a very odd curve.) Seraphine has a playstyle that is more about distinct spell casts that have a large individual impact, but with middling power between those double cast peaks. Sona is a constantly ability cycler ala Udyr that wants to juggle her abilities keeping a high uptime of impact, dump her ult early in a fight with the possibility of seeing a second cast should the engagement persist long enough. They play insanely differently just based on the mentality you need when using their kit Signed, A Mastery 10 Sona player who can't stand playing Seraphine due to the above mentioned differences.
okay, let's swap out sona for lux, and just for the sake of argument swap lux's q and e buttons. both champs have: enhanced auto attack damage after casting a spell aoe poke tool on q aoe shield on w straight line skillshot with cc ult with massive range in a line (but seraphine's has cc attached in exchange for having a slow travel time) see how easy it is (when you don't know what you're talking about) to draw parallels between things that seem similar but really aren't? because don't even try to compare lux to seraphine. If you'd ever locked in either seraphine or sona, you'd know that they play completely differently, but instead you keyboard warrior online
This is such a dumb comparison. By that logic Zac and Ornn have the same kit since they both have a skill shot Q, a W that is their main dmg tool that is also aoe magic dmg, an E for mobility and CC, ults that CC with big dmg and both of their passives make them harder to take down. See how ridiculous that sounds? I dislike seraphine as well but this whole "Seraphine's kit is just a better Sona" take that so many people have is just delusional.
@@themonkeys96 The stage of denial. "A few similarities" is not an accurate statement when I already mentioned both kits having at least an identical parallel in every single item (Heck, I missed the passive, that is also a 3 spell activating one that triggers an empowered attack. I don't even need to tell you which one I am referring to because that statement applies to both.) The big problem here is not that there are "some" similarities, it's that the number of similarities just keeps piling up. And there is basically no exceptions, only tuning levers and a feature here and there. Not even the lack of movement speed counts, because Seraphine's W already hands teammates movement speed. It's just located in her W instead of her E. If you posited me Seraphine's kit as a rework of Sona, I wouldn't have batted an eye, which was what happened the day it was announced. Heck, even their thematic ideas are near identical, being both "Musical mages" and both having the peculiar characteristic of playing music when near teammates that nobody else has. (Sona mostly on her DJ Sona skin, but as far as I know no other champion shows the option to turn off the music at the side of the tab options than these two. Maybe there is another exceptional skin that also does this, but as far as I know this is not the case.) Current stats are also not good to check because they can be side effects of tuning. Seraphine also was a scaling monster before her tuning to lessen the bot and supp gap that August already mentioned. This was done like last year, so it is a relatively recent event, so the similarity was always there; It was intentionally removed. Even Sona's reduction in CD was a recent addition that only happened "after" Seraphine was released counting as latter tuning(Riot did tease they needed to rework a champion they didn't notice needed the help until a later release but never clarified who. At this moment, my suspicion was her, because Seraphine let the flaws on her prior kit shine through). In any case, to see where the pattern is you are supposed to look at the kit, anyway. There, you might have noticed that a three-cycle spell rotation is not only applicable to both, both need the last spell to be set to gain the best version of their passives. While Sona's version is on her Chord's autoattack and Seraphine's on an amplified spell, the mechanism by which they achieve the result is the same (With an empowered autoattack to boot). It might be this what is blocking you from absorbing Seraphine, as Seraphine by itself isn't a difficult champion to master. You just need to be more focused on aiming... but your positioning remains the same, because you still want to be in the middle of your team because of your W. Just like with Sona. And haver your enemies in a line for your R. Just like with Sona. And move forward to be on range of your Q and then move back to the middle of your team, just like with... You get the point. Like, I get that you are personally invested in this, but please, don't gaslight me. I still can see the patterns where they are because they are there. Even your credentials aren't enough of a convincing argument because I have Mastery 18 on Sona and 14 on Seraphine. They aren't even my mains, I main Aurelion Sol at 35, and am a Diamond 4 player. Just... Just look at the kit, please. Count the similarities, then you will see where I'm coming from. Because "Soraka has a poke on her Q too" also applies to Syndra, but that's kind of the end of it for that conversation. But we could go all night between Sona and Seraphine.
@@Bingo440 ... How does that even work? Dude, a skill shot Q applies to way too many champions to work as a comparison, but also Ornns Q leaves terrain that works as a setup for his E, doesn't attach to targets like Zac's Q, because it is terrain it doesn't have the double effect of serving as a second CC unlike Zac's. The only true similarity they have is that theis Q are skilshots. What is wrong with you? Are you in an echo chamber of idiots or something? Why is it that this was the limit of your thinking? And no, I didn't say I dislike Seraphine, I dislike that you're not being honest.
less than 50% win rate is a powerful and viable to play? a champ that lose MORE GAMES that you win, is a POWERFUL AND VIABLE champ? IT'S VIABLE TO LOSE MORE THAN WIN? You guys? YOU GUYS?:??????????? i'm i crazy or something? Or he's really saying that lose more than win is a viable thing??????????
Yea. Winrate is an abstraction. If your character functions better in specific comps, then their winrate is going to lie since the majority of games aren't going to be under that comp. Many reasons why a high pickrate, meta defining champ will vibe at a 49-50% winrate.
Please use your brain. If a champ is below 50% wr and considered strong is because the vast majority of players on that champ are terrible at them. Place them in the hands of pro players they are insanely strong. EG ryze, azir, ksante the list goes on
Sona is in the top 5 most powerful late game champions. Her auras are bonkers, but you dont see it because it's subtle. Shes not weak, shes just a scaling support.
@@aleksanderkozowski9414 Sona is low key broken idk why people say she is bad xD. It is an immediate signal to their lack of game knowledge when they say she is bad.
Her ult is weaker than Seraphines because the projectile is faster, the CD lower and can even be reduced more once Sona completes her quest. It's entirely possible Sona gets 2 casts in a team fight.
Her ult is faster and almost unreactable even in regard to animation. But besides that, more power budget is obviously spent on her basic spells all being short cooldown (especially once scaled) so she gets to use them more often than Seraphine’s 12 second cd shield
The issue I think is that APC and midlane players have had to deal with a kit that feels terrible to play (Very big scaling fall off in the late game even as a mage, nerfs to base AD makes CSing feel awful). And while her kit is quite different from Sona, once you reach mid to late game, you're kind of forced to pump out healing with W like Sona when your ultimate is on cooldown - you can't build her damage because she scales so horribly with full AP builds.
Lux and Velkoz can be balanced around being played mid, support and APC by getting them to build as artillery poke mages as support, so why couldn't they do the same for Seraphine? She lost a lot of her original identity as a scaling mage as a result of being balanced around support.
Forcing Seraphine to be a support just sucks. I swear rito just does the opposite of what they really need to do since if they had only just reworked her w to be better for solo lane she would have remained as an incredible mid mage.
you go where the players are and Seraphine players have always been support, she has never been popular mid compared to support, it sucks for you, but there are over 160 characters, you don't get to balance that in a vacuum.
@@AnimeFrankReynolds Dude she was originally built to go mid, I promise you if they had just reworked W noone would have taken her as a support as she sucks there. She is an enchanter with only 1 heal spell that has an over 15 second cd.
'Go where the players are' don't make me laugh in this game, do you have any idea how much champs have gone from role to role? What so we balance Brand for support as he is now a support champ? Or what about Lulu? There was a time she was extremely popular mid/top and had an awful pick rate in sup, why was she helped?
Rito needs to learn to tighten their belt and at least try to support their original idea.
'Sucks for you' my ass, go take a shit mate rather than to reply like that.
She was consistenty played as support in ~80%+ of games since day one. She was not forced to be a support. She was 47% wr support for nearly her all existence yet still mostly played as a support. People are simply disinterested in playing her as mid/apc despite them being historically her best roles (still true for APC tho)
@@AnimeFrankReynoldsriot should learn to stick to their guns for once and not immediately give up on a champion's intended role (she was always intended to be a mid laner) all because support players parasitically latch onto them. It happened to brand, zyra, swain, pantheon the list goes on... It's time they break the cycle of letting supports just destroy champs in their intended solo lanes.
@@pamdabeep so just want a bunch of dead champions no one plays your insanely smart.
"we dont tolerate champions in botlane being 54% winrate" meanwhile some enchanter support sitting at 55%+ wr in my elo for months tarik being the biggest offender together with sona
taric is only picked by 1 tricks or in games where he's so good you can drool on yourself and 1v9 ofc he's gonna have a high winrate
@bravepotatoe7513 well then nilah got hotfix gutted even though she is a onetrick champ same for old aurelion. one trick champ is not an excuse for it to be broken
“Let’s sort bot lane by winrate”
*there isn’t a SINGLE marksman on his screen*
They could start by designing supports that aren’t good at things that carries want to do to win a game.
now look at the pickrate 🗿🗿🗿🗿
@ now go look at the pick rate for Tristana and Lucian mid during the horrible “ADC Meta”, and take a look at their win rates while your at it. Better nerf IE and the value of gold again lol
@@jacobcannon8876 thats because you needed a lot of skill to play them there tho, they were very opressive.
@@paybuck1237 “needed a lot of skill” translates to “only matters for grandmaster and above” aka you’re describing a problem that effects less than one half of 1% of the entire player base. They were not oppressive to 160 million people, they were oppressive in a few pro leagues and certain high elo lobbies. It’s a non issue for everyone with a normal life
Notice he doesn't dare to talk about player satisfaction or her being enjoyable, because she isn't :)
Let's face it, her kit is not enjoyable as a support, and it's not super unique in terms of what it does and the balance team is treating her as if she has tons of utility that can compensate the lack of numbers and scalings.
Lulu is always gonna feel good to play cause all elements on her kit are meant to support her team, thus her numbers dont scale. Seraphine in her current state will always feel underwhelming, cause most of her abilities are meant to do damage and she just doesnt, throughout the whole course of a game.
Im not sure how she's one of the more popular supports in the game and you say "she's not enjoyable to play."
Is there a way that makes sense?
@Lkabss Player satisfaction has nothing to do with popularity. Swain went trough changes to make him more enjoyable despite being popular.
@JanetyPatinety maybe not 1 to 1, sure. You could make the case that overpowered champions get inflated pick rates.
But _nothing?_ I don't think that's right.
How are you separating the difference between popularity and "fun to play"?
Why are so many "Seraphine solo players" so delusional. Seraphine release was sooo strong midlane but no one wanted to play her. Even the stats site he used showed that.
Sera really just doesn't work well as a support, I don't think any small number adjustments like this will have long-term success at closing the gap between bot and supp. She may seem like an enchanter support, but her actual skills don't work as the support as well. She's made to follow-up on a support, not be the main support. E extends CC, W spreads sustain to become team-wide, R wants a frontline.
But supports are the ones bringing cc, sustain, and frontline. Make her the support, and she'll never make full use of her power. Not many ADCs bring this kind of utility for Sera to use. Long-term, I don't think these changes will maintain stability because it doesn't address the actual reason why Sera is so much better having a support than being the support. I wish we could get her balanced around mid again, but I'll probably just have to prepare for more nerfs in the future...
She ltierally was 51.50% wr during summer event and then got gutted to below 50% wr as support... Just revert that nerf partially and she'll be alright
I feel like to be a better support, Seraphine just needs nerfs to her Q and E damage (Buffs to base damage, nerfs to scaling). Buffs to the W that scale well with level, to encourage a W max, and then maybe a buff to the bonus on W if it gets the double cast. Maybe reduce her base hp and ad by a hair too
More roots, less damages, more heal. thats it.thing is to play with passive, do you wants big heal or better roots?
@@baker8674 you get more roots by just buying rylai. It makes her normal E a root. The flat CD on W sucks tho
The issue is not many people enjoy seraphine support when her only role is to press W when her ultimate is on cooldown. You might as well play Sona when your entire job becomes to just pump out healing late game.
@@boxbird5723 Maybe give some supporting attributes to her Q. Perhaps her Q gives some attack speed to allies it hits. Then her E is the slow/root of course. This would make her pair well with melee adc's like Samira
Almost every single change you mentioned has happened in the past; these were exactly the levers they were playing with to attempt to even out her supp/bot performance
She was alot better support when she got released😂 nowadays i would rather pick xerath, her E is unreliable her W is shiet mostly cuz again scales terrible, even tho i havent tried full support on her for years... im pretty sure they havent buffed it to a satisfying level😂and her Q got nerfed to the ground, tho for a good reason😂😅 so no matter what stage your at in the game it is bad😂 sure if you go full ap800 ap it should get you somewhere properly but half of that you barely make a scratch tho, there is just better mage supports out there😂
Oh yeah it's that time of the month again where we try to justify forcing a kit that doesn't work well in support, to go in support because we at Riot fucked up big time when designing Seraphine and now we're stuck with a community at odds with the champion's intended style of play.
But since we're a small indie company we won't adress the issue at the core, instead tweaking numbers until both support and carry Seraphine suck to play because it just doesn't work support but we have to put her there.
Riot still doesn’t understand that Seraphine as a bot lane carry is still OP as are all the other mages. Either kill APC as a role or nerf every mage that’s 54% aka Lux.
Yes APC as a role isn’t popular, but it’s absolutely oppressive. Just have mages mid/support as it’s obviously better to balance two roles than 3 or more.
I mean, the guy has addressed this. th-cam.com/video/4zkOPDevHjk/w-d-xo.htmlsi=Qodjm2iV88eS0-pM&t=40
If you want to get them nerfed then just play them. You might like exclusively playing ADCs, but a strong argument can be made that only having adcs botlane makes the game more stale which I agree with.
@@roganjohnston Mages are strong bot because mages are designed to counter adcs. Just like when brusiers and tanks are picked mid they destroy mages because they are designed to counter mages. Nerfing them for doing their job is not the direction you go. What you need to do is find ways to make them go back to their lane. Nerfing them tho makes them even weaker in their lane and encourages them to be in bot lane even more.
just play assasins.
every mage is weak against a good assasin, mages are broken because players are not aware of their weakness
@@roganjohnston thats a horseshit argument, especially after riot just gutted the entire fucking ADC class because tristana almost hit a 50% winrate in mid.
part of the problem (imo) is that ad carry players REFUSE to learn how to lane against ap carries, you have to be way more aware of your opponent's threat ranges or get mega chunked
Sure, it must be the R the reason people compare Seraphine and Sona.
It can't be that the Q is a poke tool in blue located in the same button in Sona and Seraphine. Or that the W is a heal and shield tool in both Seraphine and Sona. And that the E can serve as a movement impairing tool (slow) in both Sona and Seraphine. That both champions get an empowered autoattack after using a spell. And that Sona's and Seraphine's R is basically the exact same skillshot if it wasn't because Seraphine's extends in length.
Surely the community is just drinking Koolaid, right? It can't be that *every button from Sona's kit has a parallel with another from Seraphine's kit.*
Don't get me wrong, I like Seraphine, but denying these details is kind of being deliberately obtuse.
Soraka: Q = Poke Took, W = Heal, E = Movement Impairment. Yes, there are a few more similarities in the fact that Ults are similar and the music theming, but simply pointing to a few similar abilities in similar locations doesn't factor that sometimes that just fits from a comfort standpoint on where the abilities should be place. You've also not factored any differences:
Sona has an ability that grants her an out of combat MS buff. Seraphine doesn't. Sona's passive can reduce the CD of her ult. Seraphine's doesn't. Every basic ability of Sona's (with insanely short CDs that she reduces over the course of the game) buff's her team. Seraphine only has 1 with a 22 sec CD (and no, her notes don't buff the next auto of her allies. It just grants her next AA more damage for each ally nearby. It's still a self buff.) Sona has an exhaust in her basic abilities where Seraphine has a stun. "Denying these details is kind of being deliberately obtuse."
Simply looking at the win rate by match time on LoLalytics will show they play insanely differently. Sona has an abysmal WR to start that then scale up into monstrous numbers if she gets to 20 minutes. Currently there's a 11% swing in WR from pre 15 minutes to post 20. Sure Seraphine's does show some slightly scaling current, but that's at most 2%. (And TBH her graph at the time of writing this shows a very odd curve.) Seraphine has a playstyle that is more about distinct spell casts that have a large individual impact, but with middling power between those double cast peaks. Sona is a constantly ability cycler ala Udyr that wants to juggle her abilities keeping a high uptime of impact, dump her ult early in a fight with the possibility of seeing a second cast should the engagement persist long enough. They play insanely differently just based on the mentality you need when using their kit
Signed,
A Mastery 10 Sona player who can't stand playing Seraphine due to the above mentioned differences.
okay, let's swap out sona for lux, and just for the sake of argument swap lux's q and e buttons. both champs have:
enhanced auto attack damage after casting a spell
aoe poke tool on q
aoe shield on w
straight line skillshot with cc
ult with massive range in a line (but seraphine's has cc attached in exchange for having a slow travel time)
see how easy it is (when you don't know what you're talking about) to draw parallels between things that seem similar but really aren't? because don't even try to compare lux to seraphine. If you'd ever locked in either seraphine or sona, you'd know that they play completely differently, but instead you keyboard warrior online
This is such a dumb comparison. By that logic Zac and Ornn have the same kit since they both have a skill shot Q, a W that is their main dmg tool that is also aoe magic dmg, an E for mobility and CC, ults that CC with big dmg and both of their passives make them harder to take down.
See how ridiculous that sounds? I dislike seraphine as well but this whole "Seraphine's kit is just a better Sona" take that so many people have is just delusional.
@@themonkeys96 The stage of denial. "A few similarities" is not an accurate statement when I already mentioned both kits having at least an identical parallel in every single item (Heck, I missed the passive, that is also a 3 spell activating one that triggers an empowered attack. I don't even need to tell you which one I am referring to because that statement applies to both.)
The big problem here is not that there are "some" similarities, it's that the number of similarities just keeps piling up. And there is basically no exceptions, only tuning levers and a feature here and there. Not even the lack of movement speed counts, because Seraphine's W already hands teammates movement speed. It's just located in her W instead of her E. If you posited me Seraphine's kit as a rework of Sona, I wouldn't have batted an eye, which was what happened the day it was announced. Heck, even their thematic ideas are near identical, being both "Musical mages" and both having the peculiar characteristic of playing music when near teammates that nobody else has. (Sona mostly on her DJ Sona skin, but as far as I know no other champion shows the option to turn off the music at the side of the tab options than these two. Maybe there is another exceptional skin that also does this, but as far as I know this is not the case.)
Current stats are also not good to check because they can be side effects of tuning. Seraphine also was a scaling monster before her tuning to lessen the bot and supp gap that August already mentioned. This was done like last year, so it is a relatively recent event, so the similarity was always there; It was intentionally removed. Even Sona's reduction in CD was a recent addition that only happened "after" Seraphine was released counting as latter tuning(Riot did tease they needed to rework a champion they didn't notice needed the help until a later release but never clarified who. At this moment, my suspicion was her, because Seraphine let the flaws on her prior kit shine through). In any case, to see where the pattern is you are supposed to look at the kit, anyway. There, you might have noticed that a three-cycle spell rotation is not only applicable to both, both need the last spell to be set to gain the best version of their passives. While Sona's version is on her Chord's autoattack and Seraphine's on an amplified spell, the mechanism by which they achieve the result is the same (With an empowered autoattack to boot). It might be this what is blocking you from absorbing Seraphine, as Seraphine by itself isn't a difficult champion to master. You just need to be more focused on aiming... but your positioning remains the same, because you still want to be in the middle of your team because of your W. Just like with Sona. And haver your enemies in a line for your R. Just like with Sona. And move forward to be on range of your Q and then move back to the middle of your team, just like with... You get the point.
Like, I get that you are personally invested in this, but please, don't gaslight me. I still can see the patterns where they are because they are there. Even your credentials aren't enough of a convincing argument because I have Mastery 18 on Sona and 14 on Seraphine. They aren't even my mains, I main Aurelion Sol at 35, and am a Diamond 4 player. Just... Just look at the kit, please. Count the similarities, then you will see where I'm coming from. Because "Soraka has a poke on her Q too" also applies to Syndra, but that's kind of the end of it for that conversation. But we could go all night between Sona and Seraphine.
@@Bingo440 ... How does that even work? Dude, a skill shot Q applies to way too many champions to work as a comparison, but also Ornns Q leaves terrain that works as a setup for his E, doesn't attach to targets like Zac's Q, because it is terrain it doesn't have the double effect of serving as a second CC unlike Zac's. The only true similarity they have is that theis Q are skilshots. What is wrong with you? Are you in an echo chamber of idiots or something? Why is it that this was the limit of your thinking?
And no, I didn't say I dislike Seraphine, I dislike that you're not being honest.
3:58 go to bot lane sort by win rate, then it shows all mages... LMAO where did all marksmen characters go.
chck playrate too lowbob!!!
@@setter9what does lowbob even mean?
less than 50% win rate is a powerful and viable to play? a champ that lose MORE GAMES that you win, is a POWERFUL AND VIABLE champ? IT'S VIABLE TO LOSE MORE THAN WIN? You guys? YOU GUYS?:??????????? i'm i crazy or something? Or he's really saying that lose more than win is a viable thing??????????
Yea.
Winrate is an abstraction. If your character functions better in specific comps, then their winrate is going to lie since the majority of games aren't going to be under that comp. Many reasons why a high pickrate, meta defining champ will vibe at a 49-50% winrate.
Please use your brain. If a champ is below 50% wr and considered strong is because the vast majority of players on that champ are terrible at them. Place them in the hands of pro players they are insanely strong. EG ryze, azir, ksante the list goes on
If you used your brain for more than 2 seconds it makes perfect sense.
@@DemonicLemur oh of course it will :). If i use my brain for more than 2 sec i probably can find the reason why people loves drugs, of course :)
@@SolarityVision ARE PRO PLAYER USING/ABUSING SERAPHINE IN ANY ROLE? Pls stop.....
Sona should get a rework. She kinda sucks ngl. Q does no dmg, her heal and speed boosts are kinda meh, and her ult is a weaker Seraphine ult.
Sona is in the top 5 most powerful late game champions. Her auras are bonkers, but you dont see it because it's subtle. Shes not weak, shes just a scaling support.
@@aleksanderkozowski9414 Sona is low key broken idk why people say she is bad xD. It is an immediate signal to their lack of game knowledge when they say she is bad.
Her ult is weaker than Seraphines because the projectile is faster, the CD lower and can even be reduced more once Sona completes her quest. It's entirely possible Sona gets 2 casts in a team fight.
Her ult is faster and almost unreactable even in regard to animation. But besides that, more power budget is obviously spent on her basic spells all being short cooldown (especially once scaled) so she gets to use them more often than Seraphine’s 12 second cd shield
sona is def dogshit.