TRANSCRIPT 1/2: Questioner: Sir, why is it that one is not orderly on the instant? Is it because of the lack of response? K: Why is not one orderly, immediately, on the instant. What does that word mean ‘orderly’? To keep, to have order as one has order in one’s room. Is order brought about through conformity, imitation of what one considers, or has an idea of what orderliness is? I want order within myself because I am disorderly, I am in conflict, I am in contradiction, I am driven one day by this desire, another day by another desire. I am in a constant state of conflict and contradiction, discontent, burning. And out of this chaos, out of this confusion, disorderliness, I want order. Because I see if I don’t have order I can’t think clearly, I can’t observe, there is no perception without distortion. And order, in the sense we are talking about, that is, not conforming to a particular ideology, not the order of the Kremlin, of the politician who doesn’t want any contradiction, or the order of a religious group which says, ‘This is true - conform.’ We are talking of order which comes in the understanding of the disorder in oneself - this contradiction, this opposition, this duality in oneself. Through understanding what is disorder, naturally there comes order. Through negation of what is disorder, the positive is the order - right? - not in conforming to the positive or what one considers is order. Q: Is half people’s trouble that they will think about themselves all the time and not about other people? K: Ah! Just a minute, madame, let me finish this question. The lady says the real trouble is thinking about oneself, not thinking about others. Thinking about you instead of myself. You are myself. You are as disorderly, as mischievous, as ugly, as brutal as myself. And if I think about you, I am thinking inversely about myself. Well, let’s go on with this question of order because it’s really quite extraordinarily important to understand this thing. Because the morality which we have socially, when you look at it very closely and examine it, it is completely disorderly, it is completely immoral. Society admits that you must be greedy, envious, seek power, position, prestige, fight your way, be violent, competitive, and that’s perfectly respectable, orderly, moral. When you see that, not theoretically but actually, and when you deny all that, there is order, which is virtue. Now the question is: can that order be on the instant? That was what the questioner was asking. One sees disorder - the mischief, the cruelty in oneself, the fears, the pleasures - you know, all that one is - if one has looked at oneself at all clearly - can this order come about or be born out of disorder, instantly? Or must one have time? Time being gradually bring about order within oneself, take many years, many days, or the rest of one’s life. Time means eventually. By the time we have explored, examined freely ourselves and cultivate order out of disorder, by the end of it we shall probably be dead. So one asks: is it possible to bring about order out of this disorder immediately? Don’t you act immediately, on the instant, when you see some danger? You don’t take time. You don’t say, ‘I’ll think about it.’ Where there is the perception of danger, both psychologically as well as bodily danger - specially when there is bodily danger - there is immediate action. Perception then is action. The seeing is the doing. There is no interval between the seeing and the doing. The interval is time. So why don’t we see the danger of… the real danger, not ideological danger, or an intellectual perception of the danger, but actually see the whole danger with our whole being, the danger of disorder instantly? If you saw it instantly there would be instant action. No? If I saw a precipice, a snake, the bus coming, I would act instantly because I see the danger of it - enormous impression it makes on me and I act instantly. There is no hesitation. Now what prevents me from looking in myself, in which there is so much disorder, and seeing the danger of it? Because after all, disorder leads to various forms of neurotic states, and I see how dangerous it is not to have order. That is, sir, order, which is essentially virtue, is a living thing, and where there is order there is greater security. It is only the disorderly person, disorderly activity that creates mischief, insecurity. I do not know if you have observed for yourself how the brain demands order - not habit, not a routine, but order, a living thing. And if you have noticed, most of the day is spent in disorder - the quarrels, the aggressiveness, the fears, the pleasures, the competitiveness, and all the rest of it - that is our day. And as you go off to sleep, the mind, the brain sets about bringing order within itself, because it cannot live in disorder. If it does, it becomes more and more distorted. There is greater danger of insecurity for itself. So order is essential, like the animal demands order. But we have accepted disorder as the way of life. Now, what prevents one from seeing the danger, the mischief of disorder? Disorder outwardly - nationalities, the division of nationalities with their sovereign governments, armies, all that - this everlasting fragmentation of human beings in their relationship - that is a tremendous danger. Why don’t we see it instantly and drop all that - all the division, nonsensical, meaningless division, as the Englishman, Frenchman, and all the rest of it? And why don’t we see equally clearly, inwardly, the danger, the mischief that disorder brings about? Is it that we have got used to it? Or we don’t know what to do with the disorder? How can a disordered brain do something about its own disorder? And so, not being able to do it, it goes off - if you have the money, the leisure and all the rest of it - to an analyst. Poor chap, he is also disorderly. He has to go through analysis himself to analyse another. So you are at the mercy of another, at another’s disorder. So is it possible to observe this disorder within oneself instantly and see the danger of it immediately and end it? I can’t answer it for you, obviously. But to end it instantly, you must see the whole, the total disorder of inward self - not the fragmentary disorders, and collect them and then say, ‘I am disorderly’ - but to see the totality of disorder in oneself instantly. Surely it’s possible. Otherwise we live in a state of confusion, mischief and misery. Which means to see everything without disorder, distortion - to see the wife, or the husband, the neighbour, without prejudice, without opinion, to observe without like or dislike. That requires great awareness of oneself. You see, one hasn’t the time or the energy or the urge; one plays around. And so one accepts wars, disorders and the confusion, and the mischief. ...
TRANSCRIPT 2/2: ... Q: It appears to me that we have to bring about the time and the urge and the energy in ourselves in order to go forward in something like you have said. K: But how will you have that energy, sir? Why don’t you have it? Q: I have got other interests. K: Is that so? Other interests when the house is burning? Do the other interests, do they not also create disorder? I have energy for that, that fragment of my life, business, whatever it is, tremendous interest. I give thirty, forty years of my life to that interest, and the rest of it is chaos, misery, struggle. You know all the ugliness of it. And that concentrated interest on one fragment is obviously bringing about disorder in other fragments. I am very kindly, gentle, affectionate with my family but I become a tiger in the business world. And I say to myself I have not the energy to tame down that tiger who is creating so much mischief in my life. And from that arises the question: why do we fragment, break up our life, into business world, into the family world, into the world of golf, in the world of God, and all the rest of it? Why? Why this breaking up of life - the pleasure on one side, the pain, the sorrow, the competitiveness, the aggression, the violence, and the demand for peace on the other - why do we float around in this… fragments? Is it habit, custom, tradition, education, and so blame the society, the environment? And saying, ‘Oh, if I could only be free of the environment, I would be perfect.’ And the environment is created by us - by our greed, by our ambitions, by our brutality. The environment is us. Until we become aware of ourselves as we are, and radically change - which is the real revolution - then there is a possibility of living together in peace. And to do that one must have tremendous energy, not for this or that fragment - totally. Q: Sir, are you saying that the brain demands order, and are you saying that standing in the way of that order is our lack of awareness of ourselves? K: Yes, sir. I won’t repeat the question; I am sure you have all heard it. Q: No, I didn’t. K: The brain, the questioner says, the brain demands order because only in order there can be security for itself, not in disorder. And this order comes about, or rather he is saying does it come about through awareness of oneself, through knowing oneself? Obviously. Knowing oneself, not according to some expert or some philosopher, or the speaker sitting on this unfortunate platform, but understanding oneself as one is, to look at oneself. And to look at oneself is only possible not in isolation, not withdrawing into a monastery and looking at yourself, but looking at yourself, understanding yourself only in relationship. Because there you have the reactions - your angers, your jealousies, your dominance, your greed and your assertions, and all the rest of it, take place in relationship. And the more - not ‘the more’ [laughs] - when one is really aware of oneself, through a gesture, through a word, through the way you assert, and all that - the clarity of perception is the instant action of understanding.
One looks holistically. On one side lie the right action for few who deserve it. On the other, someone is utterly disorderly , and its desires harm the fundamental interests of that one, but if you do not flow with those ugly desires, many others for whom one is responsible are harmed. One is non-plussed, acts . The act is right. Those harmed inwardly go along as they understand. But one feels torn.
second law of thermodynamics tells us that there is an overwhelming tendency for things to degrade into disorder, or move into a state of higher entropy.Every tangible thing in the universe, from the galactic Milky Way to the candy bar melting in your bag to neuron cells in the brain , is an ordered arrangement of specific particles and given that high entropy is the most common state for particles in the universe, isn’t K questioning of disorder goes against laws of physics?
Johan Van de voet , its not only intellectual but also fact , a law in nature as per scientist. I am just extending laws of nature in physical world to psychological world as psyche is also result of material process(neurons activity)
i think that's what nature does automatically.... What K is pointing is probably the disorder which humans have created for themselves by not being aware. THey have fragmented themselves into a personal "life", a social "life", a business "life"etc. Such fragmentation goes on in every sphere. But nature acts independently of our control. You can't control the nature as a third party. You are the part of a nature. We are addressing the third-person perspective of disorderness- the disorderness which humans have separetely created. The awareness is more about blending all the boundaries between the fragements.
For example. Nothing in nature is separated by a strict boundry. For example look the sky during a sunset. There's multiple colors at play. Theres a black part, a scarlet part, and blue part in overall. But their boundaries are not rigid. The boundaries blend in so beautifully. Awareness of the self. The "instant" awareness is probably about erasing those rigid boundaries- that awareness is otherwise the "order" which K is talking about.
Sheesh Man, you don't get any of this do you? But its not your fault, the word 'disorder' is highly overused. K uses the word disorder to mean mental activity that results in conflict. For example, say you are envious of someone. That in itself is not a problem. But then your idealism may kick in and say 'I must not be envious'. That produces a conflict aka disorder in the brain. The brain is now confused. It 's natural state is to be envious but now it says I must not be that. Hope you got some of this. Some years ago I saw a talk between JK and George Sudershan, the mathematician. George started talking along the same lines as you - the thermodynamic chaos as disorder. What a waste of time that was. I felt sorry for K.
Thank you. Addition of transcript is icing on the cake. 💞
Thankyou to my friends at the Krishnamurti Foundation!
TRANSCRIPT 1/2:
Questioner: Sir, why is it that one is not orderly on the instant? Is it because of the lack of response?
K: Why is not one orderly, immediately, on the instant.
What does that word mean ‘orderly’? To keep, to have order as one has order in one’s room. Is order brought about through conformity, imitation of what one considers, or has an idea of what orderliness is? I want order within myself because I am disorderly, I am in conflict, I am in contradiction, I am driven one day by this desire, another day by another desire. I am in a constant state of conflict and contradiction, discontent, burning. And out of this chaos, out of this confusion, disorderliness, I want order. Because I see if I don’t have order I can’t think clearly, I can’t observe, there is no perception without distortion. And order, in the sense we are talking about, that is, not conforming to a particular ideology, not the order of the Kremlin, of the politician who doesn’t want any contradiction, or the order of a religious group which says, ‘This is true - conform.’ We are talking of order which comes in the understanding of the disorder in oneself - this contradiction, this opposition, this duality in oneself. Through understanding what is disorder, naturally there comes order. Through negation of what is disorder, the positive is the order - right? - not in conforming to the positive or what one considers is order.
Q: Is half people’s trouble that they will think about themselves all the time and not about other people?
K: Ah! Just a minute, madame, let me finish this question.
The lady says the real trouble is thinking about oneself, not thinking about others. Thinking about you instead of myself. You are myself. You are as disorderly, as mischievous, as ugly, as brutal as myself. And if I think about you, I am thinking inversely about myself.
Well, let’s go on with this question of order because it’s really quite extraordinarily important to understand this thing. Because the morality which we have socially, when you look at it very closely and examine it, it is completely disorderly, it is completely immoral. Society admits that you must be greedy, envious, seek power, position, prestige, fight your way, be violent, competitive, and that’s perfectly respectable, orderly, moral. When you see that, not theoretically but actually, and when you deny all that, there is order, which is virtue.
Now the question is: can that order be on the instant? That was what the questioner was asking. One sees disorder - the mischief, the cruelty in oneself, the fears, the pleasures - you know, all that one is - if one has looked at oneself at all clearly - can this order come about or be born out of disorder, instantly? Or must one have time? Time being gradually bring about order within oneself, take many years, many days, or the rest of one’s life. Time means eventually. By the time we have explored, examined freely ourselves and cultivate order out of disorder, by the end of it we shall probably be dead. So one asks: is it possible to bring about order out of this disorder immediately?
Don’t you act immediately, on the instant, when you see some danger? You don’t take time. You don’t say, ‘I’ll think about it.’ Where there is the perception of danger, both psychologically as well as bodily danger - specially when there is bodily danger - there is immediate action. Perception then is action. The seeing is the doing. There is no interval between the seeing and the doing. The interval is time. So why don’t we see the danger of… the real danger, not ideological danger, or an intellectual perception of the danger, but actually see the whole danger with our whole being, the danger of disorder instantly? If you saw it instantly there would be instant action. No? If I saw a precipice, a snake, the bus coming, I would act instantly because I see the danger of it - enormous impression it makes on me and I act instantly. There is no hesitation.
Now what prevents me from looking in myself, in which there is so much disorder, and seeing the danger of it? Because after all, disorder leads to various forms of neurotic states, and I see how dangerous it is not to have order. That is, sir, order, which is essentially virtue, is a living thing, and where there is order there is greater security. It is only the disorderly person, disorderly activity that creates mischief, insecurity. I do not know if you have observed for yourself how the brain demands order - not habit, not a routine, but order, a living thing. And if you have noticed, most of the day is spent in disorder - the quarrels, the aggressiveness, the fears, the pleasures, the competitiveness, and all the rest of it - that is our day. And as you go off to sleep, the mind, the brain sets about bringing order within itself, because it cannot live in disorder. If it does, it becomes more and more distorted. There is greater danger of insecurity for itself. So order is essential, like the animal demands order. But we have accepted disorder as the way of life.
Now, what prevents one from seeing the danger, the mischief of disorder? Disorder outwardly - nationalities, the division of nationalities with their sovereign governments, armies, all that - this everlasting fragmentation of human beings in their relationship - that is a tremendous danger. Why don’t we see it instantly and drop all that - all the division, nonsensical, meaningless division, as the Englishman, Frenchman, and all the rest of it? And why don’t we see equally clearly, inwardly, the danger, the mischief that disorder brings about? Is it that we have got used to it? Or we don’t know what to do with the disorder? How can a disordered brain do something about its own disorder? And so, not being able to do it, it goes off - if you have the money, the leisure and all the rest of it - to an analyst. Poor chap, he is also disorderly. He has to go through analysis himself to analyse another. So you are at the mercy of another, at another’s disorder.
So is it possible to observe this disorder within oneself instantly and see the danger of it immediately and end it? I can’t answer it for you, obviously. But to end it instantly, you must see the whole, the total disorder of inward self - not the fragmentary disorders, and collect them and then say, ‘I am disorderly’ - but to see the totality of disorder in oneself instantly. Surely it’s possible. Otherwise we live in a state of confusion, mischief and misery. Which means to see everything without disorder, distortion - to see the wife, or the husband, the neighbour, without prejudice, without opinion, to observe without like or dislike. That requires great awareness of oneself. You see, one hasn’t the time or the energy or the urge; one plays around. And so one accepts wars, disorders and the confusion, and the mischief.
...
TRANSCRIPT 2/2:
...
Q: It appears to me that we have to bring about the time and the urge and the energy in ourselves in order to go forward in something like you have said.
K: But how will you have that energy, sir? Why don’t you have it?
Q: I have got other interests.
K: Is that so? Other interests when the house is burning? Do the other interests, do they not also create disorder? I have energy for that, that fragment of my life, business, whatever it is, tremendous interest. I give thirty, forty years of my life to that interest, and the rest of it is chaos, misery, struggle. You know all the ugliness of it. And that concentrated interest on one fragment is obviously bringing about disorder in other fragments. I am very kindly, gentle, affectionate with my family but I become a tiger in the business world. And I say to myself I have not the energy to tame down that tiger who is creating so much mischief in my life.
And from that arises the question: why do we fragment, break up our life, into business world, into the family world, into the world of golf, in the world of God, and all the rest of it? Why? Why this breaking up of life - the pleasure on one side, the pain, the sorrow, the competitiveness, the aggression, the violence, and the demand for peace on the other - why do we float around in this… fragments? Is it habit, custom, tradition, education, and so blame the society, the environment? And saying, ‘Oh, if I could only be free of the environment, I would be perfect.’ And the environment is created by us - by our greed, by our ambitions, by our brutality. The environment is us. Until we become aware of ourselves as we are, and radically change - which is the real revolution - then there is a possibility of living together in peace. And to do that one must have tremendous energy, not for this or that fragment - totally.
Q: Sir, are you saying that the brain demands order, and are you saying that standing in the way of that order is our lack of awareness of ourselves?
K: Yes, sir.
I won’t repeat the question; I am sure you have all heard it.
Q: No, I didn’t.
K: The brain, the questioner says, the brain demands order because only in order there can be security for itself, not in disorder. And this order comes about, or rather he is saying does it come about through awareness of oneself, through knowing oneself? Obviously. Knowing oneself, not according to some expert or some philosopher, or the speaker sitting on this unfortunate platform, but understanding oneself as one is, to look at oneself. And to look at oneself is only possible not in isolation, not withdrawing into a monastery and looking at yourself, but looking at yourself, understanding yourself only in relationship. Because there you have the reactions - your angers, your jealousies, your dominance, your greed and your assertions, and all the rest of it, take place in relationship. And the more - not ‘the more’ [laughs] - when one is really aware of oneself, through a gesture, through a word, through the way you assert, and all that - the clarity of perception is the instant action of understanding.
Thank you so much for the transcript thank you :-):-):-):-):-)
I feel this is a fundamental lecture for folks to start with when exploring K
Thank you for transcript ❤️❤️❤️
I love you Krishnaji.
K not expects our love, bothered about our disorders.
Clarity of perception is instant understanding
🥰🤩LOVED your idea about keeping the *TRANSCRIPTS* in the comment section😊😇 THANKYOU so much !!
🙏JAI KRISHNAMURTI🙏
THE best guide......
Thank you
🙏💯
I see your point Uploader... Thanks.!
🌻
Please share the link of entire discourse , in which this speech was a part
th-cam.com/video/l2a9_bzjvIY/w-d-xo.html
One looks holistically. On one side lie the right action for few who deserve it. On the other, someone is utterly disorderly , and its desires harm the fundamental interests of that one, but if you do not flow with those ugly desires, many others for whom one is responsible are harmed.
One is non-plussed, acts . The act is right. Those harmed inwardly go along as they understand.
But one feels torn.
second law of thermodynamics tells us that there is an overwhelming tendency for things to degrade into disorder, or move into a state of higher entropy.Every tangible thing in the universe, from the galactic Milky Way to the candy bar melting in your bag to neuron cells in the brain , is an ordered arrangement of specific particles and given that high entropy is the most common state for particles in the universe, isn’t K questioning of disorder goes against laws of physics?
This doubt I also have.
Johan Van de voet , its not only intellectual but also fact , a law in nature as per scientist. I am just extending laws of nature in physical world to psychological world as psyche is also result of material process(neurons activity)
i think that's what nature does automatically.... What K is pointing is probably the disorder which humans have created for themselves by not being aware. THey have fragmented themselves into a personal "life", a social "life", a business "life"etc. Such fragmentation goes on in every sphere. But nature acts independently of our control. You can't control the nature as a third party. You are the part of a nature. We are addressing the third-person perspective of disorderness- the disorderness which humans have separetely created. The awareness is more about blending all the boundaries between the fragements.
For example. Nothing in nature is separated by a strict boundry. For example look the sky during a sunset. There's multiple colors at play. Theres a black part, a scarlet part, and blue part in overall. But their boundaries are not rigid. The boundaries blend in so beautifully. Awareness of the self. The "instant" awareness is probably about erasing those rigid boundaries- that awareness is otherwise the "order" which K is talking about.
Sheesh Man, you don't get any of this do you? But its not your fault, the word 'disorder' is highly overused.
K uses the word disorder to mean mental activity that results in conflict. For example, say you are envious of someone. That in itself is not a problem. But then your idealism may kick in and say 'I must not be envious'. That produces a conflict aka disorder in the brain. The brain is now confused. It 's natural state is to be envious but now it says I must not be that. Hope you got some of this.
Some years ago I saw a talk between JK and George Sudershan, the mathematician. George started talking along the same lines as you - the thermodynamic chaos as disorder. What a waste of time that was. I felt sorry for K.
The people outnumber those in charge... Doesent take much to... Very simple, bubble society
Omg😂 "Poor chap, he is also disorderly"🤣
Oh, I wish I could have met this increadible man IRL❣️
I wonder what exactly he means by relationships, relationship with family, society, situations...or smthng totally different?
Is noticing the disorder, order?
I think my mind is becoming conditioned by Krishnamurti!
Conditions are not wise.