Glen Scrivener Reacts || The Rest is History || Tom Holland and the Historical Jesus
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ธ.ค. 2022
- Glen Scrivener reacts to the two most recent episodes of The Rest is History ('287. Jesus Christ: The Mystery' and '288. Jesus Christ: The History'). The Rest is History is a podcast presented by historians Tom Holland and Dominic Sandbrook.
Glen's previous discussions with Tom Holland:
How Christianity Gained Dominion - An Interview With Tom Holland: • How Christianity Gaine...
Tom Holland | How Christianity Gained Dominion | A Secular Historian Loses His Faith (In Liberalism): • Tom Holland | How Chri...
Christianity is the Greatest Story - Tom Holland and Paul Vanderklay: • Christianity is the Gr...
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Been a Christian for many years but God led me to study history and in it, I see him more and more and this is one of my favourite podcasts as well and also had the privilege of hearing you speaking, Glen, so great to put these two things together. I haven't actually got to these episodes, as I make my way through the back catalogue and good to have heard this first.
Jesus seems to be be such a “peek-a-boo” character, showing but hiding, yes but no, no but yes, he’s such a person, a genuine personality who wants relationship but doesn’t want to force himself, so he pushes forward but then steps back, demands but gives choice.
Jesus, Yahweh, and everything else to do with them are purely human invention.
@@beachcomber1able, study the history deeply.
@@rampartranger7749 Studying religion in depth made me arrive at my current beliefs.
Glen, you’re doing truly fantastic work. Thank you for putting this all together. The tables are turning on this kind of 18/19th century analysis, even if most people are just too distracted to hear it en masse at this moment in time. I’m someone who heard it, and never went to church as a child. Keep going! Have a blessed Christmas.
It is indeed a reversion to 19th century biblical criticism. That Tom Holland starts with the gospels and not the early, high christology of the pastoral epistles, is disappointing.
But it’s a Christmas broadcast so maybe he got a bit distracted!
An extremely valuable episode Glen and well balanced too. The illumination of the evidence for Tom is a step of faith that we can pray for. Love his mind and his openness to evidence and I trust that he listens to Peter Williams. Thank you for what you do.
Thank you Jim!
The discussions regarding Jesus and religion are getting better and better. The dark days of Ditchkins are gone. Thanks be to God.
One of the best comments I heard is that "If Jesus was not real, then the writers of the Gospels are even more remarkable than their subject."
Yes, good one
Thanks so much for thinking this through, Glen. Wonderful analysis.
Loved this video. Thank you, Glen.
I loved every minute of The Rest is History 287&288. This podcast is also a great listen. Thank you!
Great post Glen. God bless and keep.
Thanks Glen. Just found you and because of the quote from your book at the beginning, I went immediately to Amazon and purchased it. I look forward to reading it as soon as I finish Persian Fire. Dominion was fascinating but as a theologian there were times I would have loved to have been able to jump into this podcast and offer my own insights, which apparently Tom and Dominic missed in their reading of the New Testament. Keep up the good work!
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
00:00 🎙️ *Tom Holland emphasizes a seismic event in the first century, the reverberations of which are felt today, suggesting a significant historical impact.*
01:40 📜 *Holland asserts that while supernatural explanations aren't necessary to explain Jesus and Christianity, dismissing the New Testament as bad history isn't a valid argument.*
06:57 📜 *Glen Scrivener highlights that the best evidence for Jesus, his death, resurrection, and exalted identity, is found in Paul's writings, often overlooked by historical Jesus scholars.*
09:57 📜 *Scrivener and Holland argue that the genius of Jesus' teachings and the improbable nature of inventing such a figure suggest his historical existence as the source of these teachings.*
17:19 📜 *Scrivener emphasizes Jesus' exalted self-understanding, unique among first-century preachers, as seen in his claim to be the judge in the day of judgment.*
19:22 🤔 *Critics and disciples alike were puzzled by Jesus' radical teachings and claims, challenging conventional Judean norms.*
20:17 🤴 *Jesus preached the kingdom of God, a realm devoid of political power but founded on virtue, leaving a lasting impact on history.*
21:53 🌍 *Christianity, labeled the most disruptive revolution by Tom Holland, originated from Jesus' unconventional teachings and self-perception as the Messiah.*
23:17 🕊️ *Jesus' teachings on rendering to Caesar subverted traditional power structures, laying the groundwork for secularism.*
26:14 💬 *The passion narrative, despite some embellishments, likely contains historical truths about Jesus' trial and crucifixion.*
29:32 📖 *Memories of Jesus' words and deeds, though not verbatim, were likely preserved due to their memorable and impactful nature.*
31:51 🌟 *The disciples' belief in Jesus' resurrection, while not verifiable, is historically significant, catalyzing the rise of Christianity.*
34:38 📜 *Early Christian texts, like Paul's letters, already exalted Jesus as Lord and Son of God, suggesting a high view of Jesus predates the resurrection belief.*
37:50 📖 *The exalted view of Jesus stems from his life, teachings, willing sacrifice, and the belief in his resurrection, according to Tom Holland.*
38:46 🤔 *Jesus' teachings were unsettling yet attractive, delivered with a flair for language that left a lasting impact on his listeners.*
39:40 📜 *The consistency, coherence, and distinctiveness of Jesus' teachings suggest a remarkable figure, prompting Christians to write about him.*
40:48 📚 *The idea that Jesus' influence arose solely from societal context is challenged, as no other figure inspired what Jesus did.*
41:54 💡 *Occam's razor suggests that Jesus being the Son of God is the simplest explanation, but the conversation shows that belief in this isn't unreasonable.*
43:56 📖 *Historians and theologians view their disciplines as non-overlapping magisteria, but some, like NT Wright, see faith and history as complementary.*
46:02 🔍 *Weirdness in Jesus' story doesn't negate historicity; it may actually explain the historical impact and regularity of history.*
47:22 🌍 *Jesus' existence is considered by some as the most significant event in history due to its foundational impact on culture, literature, and more.*
49:28 🎱 *Jesus' self-understanding as the king of a cosmic kingdom was super-historical, predicting and achieving world-changing impact.*
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Very helpful and equipping analysis in every way. Thanks Glen. Ultimately I still have to ask how this growing confidence and excitement leads to growing holiness in my life. I’m hopeful!
Thank you, Glen. Fascinating information and ideas. A blessed Christmas to you, your family, and to all at Speak Life.
Happy Christmas, Beverley
Oh... my Like
Jordan peterson,
Paul Kingsbury
Tom Holland
Gives perspectives on christianty
Really refreshing,
Being grown up in church...
We are blind to the greatness
Of Jesus, his Word, the bible
And the consequences world wide
Kingdom of virtue !!
Israel... wrestling with God
First to undestand and submit
Second to keep standing in this world of dark violence power of rulers
Tom, Jordan, Paul and me are doing this.
Very interesting reading
Ps thanks so much Glen. Keep on.
I wonder what Tom Holland would say about C.S. Lewis's lord/liar/lunatic trilemma
Fantastic video.
This was a really good presentation, thank you. I’m so glad my friend gave me this link. Just one thing though, it was interesting 😊that the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD was not mentioned by any of the New Testament writers - would this not give a pretty good idea of when it was written? 5:56
Excellent
He had a certain way, truth, and life.
I just discovered this channel after watching Glen in conversation with John Anderson.
I had listened to the Rest is History Episode about Jesus. I agree with Glen's analysis overall, with some reservations.
The two Magisteria of Science and History that were mentioned, I believe, are not equal with the Magisteria of Biblical Theology, but are derived from, and subservient to it.
It is clear that science has been corrupted and elevated above its proper place as a tool to discover the work of God to become a form of pagan worship set up in opposition to Biblical Theology. And it has brought history along with it, recruiting numerous scholars only too willing to reject the God of the Bible. History has long been a tool in the hands of tyrants, as was well described by George Orwell.
Science and history have become captive to naturalistic materialism which by definition precludes the spiritual, transcendent reality of God revealed in the Holy Bible.
If you try to accommodate these materialistic ideas of science and history you must reject the book of Genesis. If you reject Genesis, you reject the historicity of original sin and God's plan for our redemption. Under that assumption, the idea of miracles and most importantly, Jesus' resurrection must be abandoned and Biblical Theology collapses. We are then, as Paul described, without hope and to be pitied more than anybody else.
Rather, when we accept the preeminence of Biblical Theology, we must accept the historicity of Genesis and its consequences for secular scientific consensus, especially relating to biblical chronology and history therein described (creation week, the Noah's Flood etc.).
Only then can science be used for its intended purpose and history relied upon to report truthfully through the mists of time.
The seismic event in the first century which catalysed the invention of Christianity was surely the Roman Jewish War and the destruction of Temple Judaism. The failure of the Messiah to appear to save his people from the Romans according to the holy books was reinterpreted as a first coming of the hidden sacrificed Messiah who was expected to return as political Messiah later. This was the gospel of Paul who flourished according to Jerome after AD70.
Jerome was clear (as is all church history) that Paul was beheaded under Nero's reign - well before the destruction of Jerusalem.
@@SpeakLifeMedia De viris illustribus and Jerome's Commentary on Philomen say otherwise. No contemporary writers report that Christianity existed prior to AD70. Philo of Alexandria, Pliny the Elder, Seneca and most importantly the Dead Sea Scrolls say nothing of Jesus, his message or his followers. Matthew says that his fame spread as far as the Decapolis and Syria and beyond the Jordan...yet there is silence from the sources that should have mentioned him or his enemies. Other Jewish sages are recorded but not Jesus of Nazareth. Why is this?
Peter Williams is one of UKs best
Tom did not exactly say "The bible is not bunk."
Yes, Jesus is history.
descendent of Iisus Hristos.
dr med Corina Miriam Georgeta IJAC
sunday
You seem to be disagreeing with Tom when he said you don't need the supernatural to explain the birth of Christianity. Setting aside the question of whether a historian can conclude a miracle happened (qua historian) Tom also says you wouldn't need a miracle anyway. That's where your pushback seems to be.
You both agree that a Christian can engage critically with the New Testament and believe in the resurrection, but Tom also seems to allow for good natural explanations. Do you disagree there Glenn?
Glen, do you believe the big bang happened?
It’s not the tooth fairy. It’s not something you need to believe in or not.
Many Christians believe that God spoke and “Bang” creation began. That’s pretty big!
Nevermind weaving a genealogy into that too of real historical people that Jesus is related to.that in itself could not be made up
This is all incredible hand waving. I've posted a rather more natural explanation for the success of "the West". This was the greatest lottery of all time: discovering the Americas, which geographically was closer to Europe than to Islam, or China, or India. No Americas, Europe remains the backwater of Eurasia.
Isn’t the difference here (as in faith) that a person is drawn by The Holy Spirit…belief is not an intellectual choice although academic understanding and research may build on faith. It surely has to be that way or salvation become subservient to intellect….and this cannot be as it is available to all (regardless of intellect) if not accepted by all.
This same Holy Spirit comes to convict us of sin…and therefore our need for Salvation…a salvation we can’t obtain through and of ourselves. Christs ministry is after all a ministry of reconciliation, why would we need that reconciliation unless we are separated and how are we separated except through our sinful nature which is in rebellion against God. (Enmity)
So; intellectual debates go on but we are called (drawn) to repentance (tshuva, returning to God change of heart/mind) by being convicted of our sinful (fallen) state and thus our need for a saviour.
John 16: 7-15
“But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: about sin, because people do not believe in me; about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit (of truth) comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you.
All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
A seismic event that leads people to think Jesus is raised from the dead. Something happened… hmm… Tom you’re circling around what is staring you in the face - us all- is that… Jesus was… raised - from - the - dead. Tom it’s about with you, what Christ says, to an almost comedic level given your great intelligence. Tom - let go the pride and submit to Christ - as, wait for it… Lord. He is and he loves you Tom - you matter and he’s died for you Tom too. Last first first last - you are loved and no more no less than the unintelligent. Same as for anyone.
Inadequacy of the New Testament as source not reason not to believe… Okay Tom, - so it says … Jesus was raised from the dead.
Christianity is another successful byproduct of the Roman Empire, which in turn preserved the best of Greek thought. No other civilization preserved such a wide range of literary, scientific, historical thought as the Romans, first from Rome and later from Constantinople.
Christianity was really a Hellenistic creation, coherent with Platonic and Stoic ways of thinking, and against Epicuriean ideals . Christians quickly adopted Platonic and later Aristotelian thought as fundamental to its dogma. Augustine is all Plato. Aquinas is all Aristotle.
Islam arose similarly, but with the added difficulty that its followers had to create an empire while perfecting its dogma. Islam learned a lot, though, from the existence of the Roman Empire and of its adoption of Christianity. It was the obvious model to follow.
Christian or non-Christian, the Roman hegemony would eventually decline. Europeans struggled to survive, and effectively reinvented themselves by resorting to good old geopolitical advances and geographical happenstance. Getting hold of the Americas, a continent all their own, provided unexpected opportunities and resources: create a slovocracy to cultivate staples and mine precious metals. Europeans simply hit the jackpot at the right time. It wasn't Christianity. It was good luck.
Without Christianity you’d be left the barbarism of Rome and Islam. I agree with Tom, we are swimming in Christian waters.
It is not the 'evidence' for Jesus of Nazareth which need trouble us, as Christians. The 'world' does not reject Jesus! What it rejects is Christological: it rejects the claims made for Jesus by the Church, from its most primitive days. And this is where the way in which we TREAT, and READ, our scriptures comes to the fore. If - as a Christian - you treat and read our scriptures in exactly the same way that a devout Muslim reads his Koran, the secular world will reject any 'kerygma' in the New Testament. The thought-world of Jesus' time was tremendously different from our own: and Jesus was, simply, "a man": all be it a young Jew who was (in the words of Alfred North Whitehead) "the supreme exemplification, but definitely in terms of genuine human life and experience, of the way God always is and always works". To read our scriptures, and our Patristic writings, literally does a disservice, in my opinion, to what their writers were trying to tell us about how God acted in Jesus. For how he acted in Jesus has to be exactly the way he works in and through us: or else, Jesus is not one of us!
Once they discover that Hebrew Cosmology is true all this will be thrown out. It was good enough for Moses.
So you keep saying
Are you allowing yourself to listen carefully to this and ask yourself tough questions?
"It's not silly to believe Jesus is the son of God"! Really? Can you think of anything that is sillier?
Nothing has substance?
No one should hang on the words of Tom Holland, hoping an 'expert' will throw us some crumb of comfort and say something nice about Jesus. He does not get to judge the existence or otherwise of His Creator; he is a sinner dead in trespasses and sins, commanded to repent and believe ALL that the scriptures say. He is in the dock not on the bench.
I'm a big fan of Tom Holland. A lot of what Tom says, I can agree with and affirm. Some may even find faith through the positive historical view of Jesus and the bible coming from a non-Christian academic-type. And who knows, maybe if we act as salt and light towards Tom, he'll come to faith.
You don't have to act with vitriol towards every non-believer.
But as Glen Scrivener says, our first port of call for authoritative information about Jesus is ... the bible. Personally, I think Glen does a fantastic job of evaluating other evidence - and especially the stance of secular historians who use non-biblical sources as primary evidence. I trust that you pray for both Glen and Tom too as they discuss and debate these issues.
@@TheJimcrooks800 yes but if the stories in the bible are manipulative or made up and our evidence from history proves this then it is valid, there was no Roman census sending people back to their ancestral home or birth place. Jesus likely wasn't born in Bethlehem or definitely not for the reason of a census
Pathetic comment..