English version below Petite précision : "Zbor" en slovène a deux sens distincts, le premier fait partie de "državni zbor", qui fait référence au parlement. Et le second est "pevski zbor", qui est une chorale. En disant "zbor" sans préciser, on comprend le mot dans le sens de "chorale". Et si le contexte est donné, alors cela peut être une sorte de regroupement de gens. (Merci à @Slovenist972 pour la précision) Small precision: Zbor in Slovene these days has 2 distinct meanings, first as part of "državni zbor", essentially the parliament, and secondly as part of "pevski zbor", which means a quire. If I hear just zbor, I would think of a quire. If context is given, then it's usually a sort of a gathering. (thanks to @Slovenist972 for that!)
Interestingly enough Russian have sometimes both version of the same origin: one from Old Russian and one fron Church Slavonic (which influenced Russian heavily) E.g. сбор means 'gathering' indeed; however 'собор' (with open syllable) means cathedral/church (place for sacral gathering) Also, голова means head literally, while глава meand head of some group (boss)
Très instructif ! Ca se voit qu'il y a beaucoup de travail pour faire une vidéo comme ça et j'aime beaucoup ce format ! Mention spéciale pour les musiques, c'est vous qui faites ça tout seul? J'aime beaucoup !
Oh merci ! Un commentaire sur les musiques, ça fait plaisir ! Et oui, c'est fait simplement, mais tout est fait maison pour les musiques (avec online sequencer, outil en ligne gratuit et facile à prendre en main), je m'inspire plus ou moins librement de musiques de différents pays slaves, et petit à petit, j'espère que ma collection de pays représentés par ces musiques se complétera !
even though in Polish we don't find a word that comes directly from the *golgol, we do have two place names that come derived from it: Głogoły & Głogolice, which follow the expected sound changes. in fact, Głogoły must probably be a plural form of the unattested *głogoł or perhaps *głogół (?)
A very interesting video! I thought Serbian/Croatian were alone in shifting the meaning of "slovo" to "reč", so it is very interesting to see that other South Slavic languages share a similar phenomenon. In Serbian/Croatian specifically, there was a whole shift which displaced other words on different levels. E.g. comparing Serbian and Russian: говор/govor: "dialect" (RU), but general "speech" (SR) речь/reč: "speech" (RU), "word" (SR) слово/slovo: "word" (RU), but "letter" in an alphabet (SR) буква/bukva: "letter" (RU), "beech" (SR) The old meaning of "letter" is still preserved in some compounds in Serbian, like "bukvar", which is an alphabet book for schoolchildren to learn letters
Super contenu. J'apprends le russe depuis un an maintenant et tes vidéos éclairent ma lanterne . Je travaille beaucoup avec l'étymologie des mots car, à mon humble avis, ce qui rend le russe difficile d'accès hormis l'apprentissage et la maîtrise de l'écriture cyrillique cursive, c'est le manque de racines communes dans les mots. Le russe est la 6ème langue que j'étudie et c'est celle qui est mon plus grand défi mais je découvre des merveilles tous les jours. J'aimerais bien vous connaître mieux. Avez vous fait une vidéo sur votre parcours personnel? Vous remerçiant par avance pour toutes les vidéos que je vais explorer, je vous souhaite une bonne soirée et une bonne continuation😉🤗🤗🤗
I also think it would be interesting to compare words for talking and saying, such as these common ones in Slovene: "govoriti", "reči", "dejati" (very formal), "praviti" "povedati", "pripovedovati", "se pogovarjati", "gučati (Prekmurje dialect, from *gъlčati). There are of course tons of other synonyms, less formal ones. I would be curious how other Slavic languages say this. I know Czech say mluvit, which is very interesting.
PS: Just found out that in archaic Slovene there is a related word called "molviti" (l is pronounced as u) and means something like "to murmur, to talk unclearly"
@@Slovenist972 O I agree for the verb "to talk" and "to say", I could probably not cover everything, but it would be very interesting to do it in a similar way as this video. It's probably only a matter of time for me to do it! For the next lexicological videos, I was more thinking of covering some numerals, because it goes well with the series of grammatical videos I'm doing now. But numerals cannot be covered in one time neither! This verb "molviti" is very interesting, I had no idea it existed! I like when I discover this kind of archaic or not very used words that exist commonly in another language. It's like the word "house", "hiša" in Slovene, "dům" in Czech, "kuća" in Croatian, and then "koča" in Slovene or "chýše" in Czech that are both used for little wooden houses or cabins. I think I won't run out of material for these vids!
@@Rozum-Razum_Slavic-linguistics Now you remind me of something funny. As you probably know, "hiša" (old Slovene "hiža") was borrowed from Germanic "hus". Bavarians then took "hiša" and created the word "Kaise" or "Kaische" which means "small house, hut". Slovene then took this word again and created "kajža" which means "small house, hut" as well (pretty much same meaning as koča). So the old Germanic "hus" was 3 times recycled :)
Looks like you have a typo in Czech and Slovak for the cognates of *sъborъ. From what I can tell, it should be sbor for Czech and zbor for Slovak. It is definitely not *sběr for Slovak as is not found in Slovak. :)
Amazing video! Chapeau! So much knowledge in one video of a topic that is very interesting to me. I might add a few points: Zbor in Slovene these days has 2 distinct meanings, first as part of "državni zbor", essentially the parliament, and secondly as part of "pevski zbor", which means a quire. If I hear just zbor, I would think of a quire. If context is given, then it's usually a sort of a gathering. As for glagol, the meaning of verb in Slovenian was added I think maybe in 19th century by our linguists. In Old Slovene we do have native words of the same root such as "glagoliti" and "poglagolanje" (Freising Manuscripts from the 10th century), but it seems that they felt out of use in middle Slovene (from 1350 on).
Thank you so much! It's always a pleasure to read your comments! I'll add the precision of meaning for "zbor" in the pinned comment! As for the meaning "parlament", I almost added in the video that in Croatian too, a very similar word using the same logic is used, "sabor" and is used for the parlament.
@@Rozum-Razum_Slavic-linguistics It's pretty rare to meet someone who has exactly the same passion in what for most linguists seems to be not so interesting, as they all focus on large global languages. It's refreshing to see someone having so much interest in Slavic language and culture. I now live on the other side of the world for over 10 years, and in recent years I've really started to be interested in my own identity, because where I live I am a foreigner, and very different than others. I also have a child who is half-Slovenian and I speak with them every day. I realized how hard it is to preserve the languages in a country where you only use it with your father a few hours per day. So that motivates me to do more research and learn more about my own roots, because I want to pass them on.
@@Slovenist972 It reminds me when I first started to learn Slovene in Slovenia, it was an intensive course of one semester, and there was quite a lot of students of Slovenian origin, from Canada or South America, that felt the need to connect back with their roots. Most of them had a dialectal knowledge of Slovene, which made it in the same time very interesting and hard for people like me, with only a basical knowledge of the standard language, to understand them! And also they have this summer school / seminar of Slovene for foreigners every year in July in Ljubljana, there are always a lot of participants coming from the Slovenian-speaking regions of Italy and Austria to get more in touch with the standard language and culture, it lasts two weeks and it's a great way to make friends around Slovenian culture and language. They have scholarships for people who study Slovene or have Slovenian roots, which is also great.
@@Rozum-Razum_Slavic-linguistics That's so great to hear. One of my goals is to teach basic Slovenian to people with Slovene roots. I already made some videos and have not published them yet. I want to be different and more thorough. I also have a very busy corporate job in a country where workaholism is the norm. I hope one day I can find time...
@@Slovenist972 Oh that's great (well, except for the time consuming job part)! I don't know if it's likely to help or reassure and I don't claim to be an example to follow, but it took me 11 months before launching my channel to test, make and remake the first videos and define a launching program that suits me... All the videos published before january were actually done before I launched it, which gave me time to go further without being in a rush. But now I don't have this luxury any more!
In Polish the word "duma" changed in meaning to "pride" but there is a verb form of it "dumać" - "to be in intense thought" which is much closer to the original meaning
There is one more word in Slovenian which uses be- as a kind of prefix, that is 'betežen' meaning weakened, applied only for elders. It points to difficult walking - moving of old weakened persons
There is a word "sbor" in Czech and Slovak as well - the meaning is gathering, choir, staff ("učitelský sbor" - teacher staff). In Polish the word zbór is used for an evangelical church (one community) or for a council, the former is used in Czech as well. Sběr / sber / zbiór are reflexes of the same word *sъ + *bьrati. The word "sběr" is just probably formed from the imperfective / iterative form of the word (*bírati / *běrati), whereas the word "sbor" from the perfective form, which semantically corresponds with the use of both (sběr is more like collectING, whereas sbor is a state, when everything / everyone is already "collected"). Another nominal reflex of the same verb in Czech is "soubor", whose meaning is very variable (from a group of musicians / actors to "file" in the nowadays computer sense.
Thank you for all the precisions! I think "sbor" is the word I had the biggest problems to show in a simple way because of all the possibilities and possible nuances, so your correction is very welcome!
En russe, la déclinaison de «slovo» avec «es» est tout a fait disparue, mais elle est survécue dans les mots dérivatifs, comme «словесный» (verbal), «словесность» (littérature).
Interesting :) in Russian, zabor means fence. I wonder if that word is related at all to any of this… a fence can be used to separate one from a gathering 😂
The word in Slovak is "zber". It's one of the notable differences from Czech that they write the prefixes s and z phonetically even if they assimilate in voicing.
This explanation is tempting, but it's not likely to be true, because the word is a cognate with a lot of other Slavic words which meaning are around the one of the verb "reči", to say. In Slovenian, the word reč could have been the subject of the discussion, the "thing we're talking about", before eventually switching to the meaning "thing"
Perhaps this issue is related to romance speaking Vlach presettlers or possibly even Friulans. There is another interesting word 'faža', meaning 'fascia' in italian. It is/was used in many dialects (I'm aware of Lower Carniolan and Zilja dialects at least), but not accepted jnto official language. The official word is 'butara'.
The word duma does NOT mean pride in Czech or Slovak. It means thinking or dreaming (or a type of Ukrainian song or the Russian parliament or a type of tree).
The word beseda in the same languages no longer has, not even implicitly, anything to do with sitting. It just denotes certain types of discussions, e. g. a press conference. No sitting is implied. It might have been implied in the past.
@@jrjrjrjrjrjrjras a native Russian speaker, when I hear, “beseda,” I imagine 2 or more people sitting on a bench and chatting, but the sitting on a bench part isn’t really necessary. I would probably just translate it as, “a friendly chat.” Typically, though, friendly chats happen while sitting - either on a bench, on someone’s couch, at school desks, etc.
![F.HERO Ft. JSPKK x ลำไย ไหทองคำ x M-PEE - ไม่สนิทบิดหมด (Thai Riders Anthem) [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kPJZ0UihBfk/mqdefault.jpg)
English version below
Petite précision :
"Zbor" en slovène a deux sens distincts, le premier fait partie de "državni zbor", qui fait référence au parlement. Et le second est "pevski zbor", qui est une chorale. En disant "zbor" sans préciser, on comprend le mot dans le sens de "chorale". Et si le contexte est donné, alors cela peut être une sorte de regroupement de gens. (Merci à @Slovenist972 pour la précision)
Small precision:
Zbor in Slovene these days has 2 distinct meanings, first as part of "državni zbor", essentially the parliament, and secondly as part of "pevski zbor", which means a quire. If I hear just zbor, I would think of a quire. If context is given, then it's usually a sort of a gathering. (thanks to @Slovenist972 for that!)
It's written "choir", "quire" is probably something else.
Interestingly enough Russian have sometimes both version of the same origin: one from Old Russian and one fron Church Slavonic (which influenced Russian heavily)
E.g. сбор means 'gathering' indeed; however 'собор' (with open syllable) means cathedral/church (place for sacral gathering)
Also, голова means head literally, while глава meand head of some group (boss)
Très instructif ! Ca se voit qu'il y a beaucoup de travail pour faire une vidéo comme ça et j'aime beaucoup ce format ! Mention spéciale pour les musiques, c'est vous qui faites ça tout seul? J'aime beaucoup !
Oh merci ! Un commentaire sur les musiques, ça fait plaisir ! Et oui, c'est fait simplement, mais tout est fait maison pour les musiques (avec online sequencer, outil en ligne gratuit et facile à prendre en main), je m'inspire plus ou moins librement de musiques de différents pays slaves, et petit à petit, j'espère que ma collection de pays représentés par ces musiques se complétera !
even though in Polish we don't find a word that comes directly from the *golgol, we do have two place names that come derived from it: Głogoły & Głogolice, which follow the expected sound changes. in fact, Głogoły must probably be a plural form of the unattested *głogoł or perhaps *głogół (?)
A very interesting video! I thought Serbian/Croatian were alone in shifting the meaning of "slovo" to "reč", so it is very interesting to see that other South Slavic languages share a similar phenomenon.
In Serbian/Croatian specifically, there was a whole shift which displaced other words on different levels. E.g. comparing Serbian and Russian:
говор/govor: "dialect" (RU), but general "speech" (SR)
речь/reč: "speech" (RU), "word" (SR)
слово/slovo: "word" (RU), but "letter" in an alphabet (SR)
буква/bukva: "letter" (RU), "beech" (SR)
The old meaning of "letter" is still preserved in some compounds in Serbian, like "bukvar", which is an alphabet book for schoolchildren to learn letters
Super contenu. J'apprends le russe depuis un an maintenant et tes vidéos éclairent ma lanterne . Je travaille beaucoup avec l'étymologie des mots car, à mon humble avis, ce qui rend le russe difficile d'accès hormis l'apprentissage et la maîtrise de l'écriture cyrillique cursive, c'est le manque de racines communes dans les mots. Le russe est la 6ème langue que j'étudie et c'est celle qui est mon plus grand défi mais je découvre des merveilles tous les jours. J'aimerais bien vous connaître mieux. Avez vous fait une vidéo sur votre parcours personnel? Vous remerçiant par avance pour toutes les vidéos que je vais explorer, je vous souhaite une bonne soirée et une bonne continuation😉🤗🤗🤗
Merci ! Eh bien, ça peut être une idée de vidéo pour le futur !
qu'en est-il des racines communes du mot "начало" (début) et "конец" (fin)?
наЧѦло КОНьць
ЧEН КОН
ken/kon
@@yozhleszyÇa ne m'avait pas traversé l'esprit, mais c'est bien la même racine ! Ça vaudrait le coup d'en parler en vidéo en effet
@@Rozum-Razum_Slavic-linguistics но придется начать с индоевропейского аблаута. c'est la vie.
I also think it would be interesting to compare words for talking and saying, such as these common ones in Slovene: "govoriti", "reči", "dejati" (very formal), "praviti" "povedati", "pripovedovati", "se pogovarjati", "gučati (Prekmurje dialect, from *gъlčati). There are of course tons of other synonyms, less formal ones. I would be curious how other Slavic languages say this. I know Czech say mluvit, which is very interesting.
PS: Just found out that in archaic Slovene there is a related word called "molviti" (l is pronounced as u) and means something like "to murmur, to talk unclearly"
@@Slovenist972 O I agree for the verb "to talk" and "to say", I could probably not cover everything, but it would be very interesting to do it in a similar way as this video. It's probably only a matter of time for me to do it! For the next lexicological videos, I was more thinking of covering some numerals, because it goes well with the series of grammatical videos I'm doing now. But numerals cannot be covered in one time neither!
This verb "molviti" is very interesting, I had no idea it existed! I like when I discover this kind of archaic or not very used words that exist commonly in another language.
It's like the word "house", "hiša" in Slovene, "dům" in Czech, "kuća" in Croatian, and then "koča" in Slovene or "chýše" in Czech that are both used for little wooden houses or cabins. I think I won't run out of material for these vids!
@@Rozum-Razum_Slavic-linguistics Now you remind me of something funny. As you probably know, "hiša" (old Slovene "hiža") was borrowed from Germanic "hus". Bavarians then took "hiša" and created the word "Kaise" or "Kaische" which means "small house, hut". Slovene then took this word again and created "kajža" which means "small house, hut" as well (pretty much same meaning as koča). So the old Germanic "hus" was 3 times recycled :)
J'me disais bien que c'était ça la réponse mais j'ai pas eu le courage à l'écrire x)
Ahah pas de problème, félicitations quand même !
Looks like you have a typo in Czech and Slovak for the cognates of *sъborъ. From what I can tell, it should be sbor for Czech and zbor for Slovak. It is definitely not *sběr for Slovak as is not found in Slovak. :)
Your videos are super interesting! Exactly the kind of content I’ve been looking for 😊
Thank you! I'm very happy to read that!
Intéressant, merci!
Amazing video! Chapeau! So much knowledge in one video of a topic that is very interesting to me. I might add a few points: Zbor in Slovene these days has 2 distinct meanings, first as part of "državni zbor", essentially the parliament, and secondly as part of "pevski zbor", which means a quire. If I hear just zbor, I would think of a quire. If context is given, then it's usually a sort of a gathering.
As for glagol, the meaning of verb in Slovenian was added I think maybe in 19th century by our linguists. In Old Slovene we do have native words of the same root such as "glagoliti" and "poglagolanje" (Freising Manuscripts from the 10th century), but it seems that they felt out of use in middle Slovene (from 1350 on).
Thank you so much! It's always a pleasure to read your comments! I'll add the precision of meaning for "zbor" in the pinned comment! As for the meaning "parlament", I almost added in the video that in Croatian too, a very similar word using the same logic is used, "sabor" and is used for the parlament.
@@Rozum-Razum_Slavic-linguistics It's pretty rare to meet someone who has exactly the same passion in what for most linguists seems to be not so interesting, as they all focus on large global languages. It's refreshing to see someone having so much interest in Slavic language and culture. I now live on the other side of the world for over 10 years, and in recent years I've really started to be interested in my own identity, because where I live I am a foreigner, and very different than others. I also have a child who is half-Slovenian and I speak with them every day. I realized how hard it is to preserve the languages in a country where you only use it with your father a few hours per day. So that motivates me to do more research and learn more about my own roots, because I want to pass them on.
@@Slovenist972 It reminds me when I first started to learn Slovene in Slovenia, it was an intensive course of one semester, and there was quite a lot of students of Slovenian origin, from Canada or South America, that felt the need to connect back with their roots. Most of them had a dialectal knowledge of Slovene, which made it in the same time very interesting and hard for people like me, with only a basical knowledge of the standard language, to understand them!
And also they have this summer school / seminar of Slovene for foreigners every year in July in Ljubljana, there are always a lot of participants coming from the Slovenian-speaking regions of Italy and Austria to get more in touch with the standard language and culture, it lasts two weeks and it's a great way to make friends around Slovenian culture and language. They have scholarships for people who study Slovene or have Slovenian roots, which is also great.
@@Rozum-Razum_Slavic-linguistics That's so great to hear. One of my goals is to teach basic Slovenian to people with Slovene roots. I already made some videos and have not published them yet. I want to be different and more thorough. I also have a very busy corporate job in a country where workaholism is the norm. I hope one day I can find time...
@@Slovenist972 Oh that's great (well, except for the time consuming job part)! I don't know if it's likely to help or reassure and I don't claim to be an example to follow, but it took me 11 months before launching my channel to test, make and remake the first videos and define a launching program that suits me... All the videos published before january were actually done before I launched it, which gave me time to go further without being in a rush. But now I don't have this luxury any more!
J'adore vos vidéos ! Bravo !
Merci, ça fait toujours plaisir à lire !
In Polish the word "duma" changed in meaning to "pride" but there is a verb form of it "dumać" - "to be in intense thought" which is much closer to the original meaning
There is one more word in Slovenian which uses be- as a kind of prefix, that is 'betežen' meaning weakened, applied only for elders. It points to difficult walking - moving of old weakened persons
J'aimerais quand même de faire une remarque sur le mot ZBOR
Dans ma region du (Kosovo et la Metochie)
Zbor (ZBORITI) veut dire parler, dire.
Merci, c'est typiquement le genre d'information qui me sont difficilement accessibles, donc ce type de commentaires est particulièrement utile !
There is a word "sbor" in Czech and Slovak as well - the meaning is gathering, choir, staff ("učitelský sbor" - teacher staff). In Polish the word zbór is used for an evangelical church (one community) or for a council, the former is used in Czech as well. Sběr / sber / zbiór are reflexes of the same word *sъ + *bьrati. The word "sběr" is just probably formed from the imperfective / iterative form of the word (*bírati / *běrati), whereas the word "sbor" from the perfective form, which semantically corresponds with the use of both (sběr is more like collectING, whereas sbor is a state, when everything / everyone is already "collected"). Another nominal reflex of the same verb in Czech is "soubor", whose meaning is very variable (from a group of musicians / actors to "file" in the nowadays computer sense.
Thank you for all the precisions! I think "sbor" is the word I had the biggest problems to show in a simple way because of all the possibilities and possible nuances, so your correction is very welcome!
Збор је реч која је уско повезана са речју ЗБИР
Збор - сабор ( нешто око чега се сабирамо= збирамо)
Збир - скуп нечега
En russe, la déclinaison de «slovo» avec «es» est tout a fait disparue, mais elle est survécue dans les mots dérivatifs, comme «словесный» (verbal), «словесность» (littérature).
ru словеса́ -- (ironic) verbiage
Sabor (close to zbor, sbor) is Croatian word for Croatian parliament. For all other parliaments, the word parlament is used.
Interesting :) in Russian, zabor means fence. I wonder if that word is related at all to any of this… a fence can be used to separate one from a gathering 😂
The word in Slovak is "zber". It's one of the notable differences from Czech that they write the prefixes s and z phonetically even if they assimilate in voicing.
Zbor, actually.
In the northwestern Slovenian Zilja dialects 'zboriti' or 'zbaritə' means to talk.
Thanks, that's interesting indeed!
Réč in slovenian meaning 'thing' , might be related to latin 'res' with the same meaning
This explanation is tempting, but it's not likely to be true, because the word is a cognate with a lot of other Slavic words which meaning are around the one of the verb "reči", to say. In Slovenian, the word reč could have been the subject of the discussion, the "thing we're talking about", before eventually switching to the meaning "thing"
Perhaps this issue is related to romance speaking Vlach presettlers or possibly even Friulans. There is another interesting word 'faža', meaning 'fascia' in italian. It is/was used in many dialects (I'm aware of Lower Carniolan and Zilja dialects at least), but not accepted jnto official language. The official word is 'butara'.
Slovenian verb 'domnevati' (to assume) could be related to duma
I don't think so, as do- in "domnevati" is a prefix, and du- in duma is part of the root!
En roumain le mot pour 'mot' est 'cuvânt' < lat. CONVENTU(M) 'assemblée'
Slovó in slovenian is stressed on the last syllable, genitive being slovésa. In the same way many neuter gender nouns are conjugated
The word duma does NOT mean pride in Czech or Slovak. It means thinking or dreaming (or a type of Ukrainian song or the Russian parliament or a type of tree).
The word beseda in the same languages no longer has, not even implicitly, anything to do with sitting. It just denotes certain types of discussions, e. g. a press conference. No sitting is implied. It might have been implied in the past.
@@jrjrjrjrjrjrjras a native Russian speaker, when I hear, “beseda,” I imagine 2 or more people sitting on a bench and chatting, but the sitting on a bench part isn’t really necessary. I would probably just translate it as, “a friendly chat.” Typically, though, friendly chats happen while sitting - either on a bench, on someone’s couch, at school desks, etc.
Јас зборувам македонски. зборува = parler
Thank you, very much.