My home is 120 years old...partially rewired....but now use AFCI on any circuit in the older sections...definitely necessary if you intend keeping any older wiring in place....
10:00 welders work off of a transformer. Welding is done ins the 25-30v range. The breaker cannot see what’s happening after the transformer it only sees a constant load. This is why you don’t want to play with microwave transformers. Nothing will trip if you latch on and it frys you.
The breaker sees a proportional current as compared to the current flowing on the load side of the transformer. If there is a pulsed consumer on the load side of the transformer such as a welder striking an arc or an SCR firing into an electric heater - those same pulses will be seen proportionally on the line side of the transformer. Feeder breaker supplying transformer loads do not see transformers as constant loads
The load seen on the primary will reflect the load on the secondary, but the transformer is designed for 60 or 50 Hz and won’t pass the higher frequency arcing back to the primary.
Not all arc welders have transformers some use dropping resistor's so the arc breaker would trip. So there is a concern for these type of welders on AFCI circuits. 73
Brushed motors will arc between the brushes and commutator, which is probably why garages/workshops and exterior receptacles (that might power electric mowers) are exempt. However, kitchens may have mixers and blenders that still use brushed motors and that might be real fun to deal with when trying to bake a cake.
Stop at GFCI in your production shop. Ask me how I know. The alternative is to replace all of your tools to ensure they are brushless. I have a 70-year old Radial Arm Saw (RAS) in my shop that will trip the AFCI whenever it was turned on. GFCI is a sufficient level of protection in this “garage-like” application. A new, brushless motor RAS would typically cost $5000+. Though the shop is technically “habitable,” no one sleeps there (unless they want to find a new job / employer). Grateful for this NEC exception.
Worth the price. Some brands seem better than others. I’ve had a partial residential remodel where they were added to new circuits by Code. I added outlets to a pre-existing circuit in bedrooms. With a normal breaker the circuit stayed on. With an arc fault, the circuit would immediately trip. I traced out the wire and found the pre-existing wiring insulation gone in the attic from squirrels. In this case the arc faults stopped a potential fire that a normal breaker would not trip on.
Was working in the attic, and while I know to check both sides of a joist before drilling - the one time I didn’t / you guessed it. I put an afci/gfci outlet in my living room a few months ago and when I hit the wire - no bang, no arc flash - nothing. These things are amazing and I’m a strong believer. Hopefully we can see the costs coming down as I’d like to see them more accessible.
Thank you for sharing. As a homevinspector I am seeing many new panels with AFCI protection for all circuits and dust function breakers for circuits for kitchens, bathrooms, unfinished basements, and exterior.
Foster Farms OK ---- I agree whole heartedly. They've gotten better in the sense that they mostly don't trip as much as when they first came out on the market. But, they are the biggest pain in the ass trying to keep up with the codes changing and no consistency from city to city, and they still trip too easily. Then you add the cost per AFCI/GFCI and or combo or dual function for every breaker in a home, the cost can be as much or more than the cost of the whole service upgrade itself. I'd like to be the guy who is getting his palm greased for implementing these things into mandatory code compliance. It's probably the same guy who sold the country the lie about CFLs and forced everyone to comply with those when in reality it was just a scam to buy time for LEDs to hit the market at reasonable costs. Complete scam saying CFLs were better for the environment. Right. Because mercury is so much better than a tiny filament of tungsten. A bunch of criminals is all they are.
Sometimes I think the code books are just there to create a business to keep the paper pushers, inspectors and inexperienced 'tradespeople' employed. So much of this could be summarized with common language; all we need is an updated version every 5-10 years... I think the next generation should work towards: "how do we reduce the verbiage in this thing". 🤷
Couldn't agree more. I've looked over the last few version of the NEC and 90% of it is the same in all version. I feel it's the same game colleges play with text books. Where every semester or two a new edition comes out with the page numbers switched around and the questions are worded differently.
It's not just that. It's written and approved by the industry that profits off the code. GFI has a time and a place. AFI I'm still not a believer in. We still have issues with them and they are one of the most common call back causes. But everything is stupid expensive. And the only true winners are the manufacturers who rape everyone on the price. They cost around $5.35 to make last audit I assisted with. They sell for over $50 trade price. The average electrical installation cost for a home went from $5000 about 20 years ago to over $20000. Yeah, copper went up. But not by that much.
2023 actually has some stuff to cut costs, things like lower minimum breaker and wiring size for lighting. I’m kind of surprised. Then again I suspect shrinkflation will happen when 2023 is widely adopted.
I remember when 210.12 came into the code. The breakers were all false tripping, and the NY board of underwriters postponed enforcing 210.12 a few years, until manufacturers corrected their problem. From what I understood. All switches sockets and receptacles must be Arch fault in a residential dwelling. Protected from the source. There is a list of exceptions. I asked the inspector, can the 1st receptacle in the circuit, be Arch fault. NO! The exception about Arch fault receptacles in my case was, I was able to install combination Arch fault/GFCI receptacles on dedicated circuits, "kitchens and bathrooms, with downstream counter receptacles, and on a dedicated outdoor receptacles circuit, where all the outdoor receptacles are controlled by the combination device at the 1st receptacle, must be labeled, indicating that the receptacle is Arch fault and GFCI Protected. Dedicated equipment is exempt. Hvac, heating systems. This was the last house I totally wired, before my health forced me to stop working. It was 10yrs ago. I remember it like yesterday. You produce awesome podcasts!
I have an old house with some suspect wiring. I wanted the added protection of afci and gfci. I have had only 2 problems with afci. An old vacuum cleaner, since replaced, would trip afci. Disposal sometimes trips afci when we diddle the switch. It is nice that the lights on the breakers tell why the trip occurred- overload, gfci, or afci.
Well, Michigan says "NAAAAH!" LOL This is what I love about being an electrician in Michigan. It is literally the only thing holding me here. If they ever were to reinstate the AFCI requirement here, I would be putting my house up for sale and moving down South.
I just so love "Code Time"; mainly because I'm still having trouble navigating the NEC and can rarely find the information I seek. I know, bless my heart ... 😄
At 8:45 you touched on a topic I am currently trying to research. In Dallas we have a 1979 installed StabLok FPE and live in constant daily fear of burning the house down. I am a huge fan of "overbuilding" and "futureproofing". What logic, rationale, or code, would be violated if the home were rewired with all Dual Function OCPs, Whole Home SPD, and 10/3 w/PVC raceways throughout the home's entirety?? Currently trying to find FPE-compatible Dual Function breakers as temporary security, but no luck exists. Would love to use Dual Function breakers for the entire panel but unclear if it would pass inspection. The home was previously maintained by a foreman for a construction company and there isn't a single aspect of this home that doesn't appear to violate some code... Framing, HVAC, Plumbing, Electrical, everything is just wrong....
for the "arc welder" part, I think the breaker might not trip simply because the "arcing" is isolated on the other side of a transformer or inverter built in to the machine.
I did all the wiring for my kitchen addition and I added a upgraded main service panel to accommodate the new kitchen circuits. My old main service is a subpanel now. Anyway, I didn’t have to touch the old main panel circuits but all 9 kitchen circuits require arc fault protection. Running dishwashers, garbage disposals, toasters, fridges, etc. All new appliances. It’s a QO plug on neutral panel with QO arc fault breakers. I have had zero trips and zero problems. Junction boxes used, connections made for appliances, and pigtails all Wago Lever nuts. Maybe the older AFCI’s were problematic, especially with older equipment, or maybe people were just using dangerous arcing equipment. Will see how it holds up. But if you have relatively newer wiring (last 30-40 years) and you install a panel with all arc fault protection and stuff starts tripping, it’s time to investigate your wiring itself…because based on my experience, it ain’t the breakers. It’s mind boggling to me why people wouldn’t want these extra safety devices. I’ve literally seen buildings go up in flames from electrical fires.
We just moved into a new neighborhood. Looks like the AFCI's are trip city. Electrician has a fulltime job with the warranty replacing these things. As far as I know you can't reliably test them, so they just replace them.
I love afci breakers! I like troubleshooting and digging into a circuit then correcting it and knowing it’s 100%. Cutler hammer tan handle is the most sensitive out there. Know your customer is safe and your brand is solid!
@@isaiahb.5868 Everyone has an opinion, and you are welcome to yours, Isaiah. All I know is that I just issued a warranty replacement of every single one of the Eaton AFCI/GFCI breakers installed in a rent house. The tenant was complaining about nuisance trips, so I checked them out, and 5 of 6 breakers were reporting self-test failures. The 6th would not trip completely off when performing the test, yet reported no failures. This house was built 5 years ago. I have also replaced a few of these in other tenants' houses. The good thing about them is that Eaton provides a lifetime warranty, and it has been a no-hassle experience getting replacements so far.
Thanks a lot for this video, I was just talking to myself about this very subject last week. I have an old house with 100A and am thinking to upgrade in future to 200A. So i wanted to ask, to get the best protection, should I use all the breakers AFCI and use GFCI in plugs? Or can I just use a dual function for all the breakers and then I'm covered 100%? And if that is the case then why even go the plug route? Because of cost? Thank you so for you or anyone else that sheds some light.
My problem with afci breakers is how they’re being made mandatory so the manufacturers (NEMA) are price gouging. These things are around $70 each last I saw them. And what do you know, more and more circuits are being required to have one. And people wonder how owning a home gets further and further from more people’s grasp.
Not to mentions these pieces of junk are constantly failing. My son owns some rental properties, and I've had to replace many of these breakers for failing self-test. They've all been Eaton breakers, FYI.
My biggest problem with AFCI is the fact that some of them will trip on a dime with RF. One of the manufacturers even had special breakers that filtered out RF from ham radio equipment. But this will be a problem for us as it becomes more widespread. Hopefully the manufacturers make this filtering standard.
@@PW_12345 actually you are very much incorrect. FCC part 15 rules says that the device must accept any interference, the operator of a licensed service such as amateur radio has no responsibility whatsoever for interference caused, even if it causes undesired operation. So if a neighbor’s ham radios are tripping your AFCIs, they have zero responsibility to fix it. It’s entirely on you. We might be nice and offer to help you but in the end, legally you are the one responsible to resolve this issue. You may have a point about conducted interference as there are actual limits on those but anything radiated you’re absolutely on your own. The general problem with AFCIs and frankly anything these days is that they make them cheap and not immune to real world environments with RF fields. It’s a race to the bottom to crank out the most cheaply made devices and as a result corners are cut and the first thing to go is usually the RF filtering and shielding. In any case I would recommend that if you’re experiencing nuisance tripping, contact the manufacturer, some of them even have specially filtered ones that don’t trip with nearby radio transmitters. Hopefully they’ll learn their lesson and make their devices a bit better shielded.
@@PW_12345 without going through your wall of text - that device you are referring to is the receiving device. Part 15 of the FCC rules refers to unlicensed devices, not licensed. So if an AFCI trips, it's on you. It's not on the licensed radio service. I've double checked and I've even asked my FCC lawyer. Sorry you wasted so much time writing such a long comment, but you are still wrong.
@@PW_12345 the FAA made that rule, it’s separate from part 15 of the FCC rules. The rule covering cell phones is 14 C.F.R § 91.21 and has absolutely nothing to do with part 15.
@@PW_12345 I cited an actual rule. There are two parts to this rule. The one I cited is the FAA’s prohibition on electronic devices. That’s an FAA rule. It’s also irrelevant to the bottom line of this discussion - AFCI breakers are part 15 devices. They must accept any interference by licensed radio services. Even if it causes undesired operation. Period. And the solution for this is for manufacturers to make their products better so they don’t nuisance trip from normal levels of RF found in the wild. A licensed service has no obligation to do anything if your AFCI trips. That’s on you.
Probably not. Access control is not a fire or life safety system, and is supposed to fail safe, so if it's faulting, it's better to shut it off from a safety perspective and open the doors. At least in theory and from the perspective of code writers in a spherical cow world
Things that will trip an AFCI breaker; vacuum cleaners, electric drills, blenders, weed whackers, basically anything with a motor that creates an arc, or sparking; motors with brushes.
New home the vacuum cleaner trips the AFCI breaker from kitchen island. But not in the bedrooms. Electrician been out twice. Run a new wire took out a 12:45 gfi in living room replaced breaker. Sometimes it works. I hate AFCI breakers
My guess on the arc welders is that they will no longer be able to use transformers for voltage changes as they back propagate signals. I'm scared to see how expensive that's going to be unless they are designing suppression circuits to filter the power. That may be the case given the short time frame.
Not that expensive: Very high power MOS-FETS have been available for years now that can be used to implement a switching power supply instead of a transformer. Converting the incoming power to DC would make it possible to weld with high-frequency AC, which should be interesting.
@@BigGuy8059 Mosfets are also far less robust than transformers which is important in a demanding application like arc welding. The mosfet itself isn’t expensive, but the support circuitry adds a lot of complexity and cost to a system. If it were that easy it would have been standard by now. It was the same with microwaves and we are just now seeing inverter microwaves become a thing and they are still more expensive and less reliable despite their huge advantages.
While my neighbor was on vacation his power went out. When it came back on his AFCI breaker did not reset. His ice maker thawed out and dripped on the hardwood floor - causing a lot of damage. Is there a code compliant solution to AFCI breakers that dont reset after a power outage?
It's toast. Same with GFCI outlets that won't reset. They are designed to lock you out if there is an internal problem. I've had some fail due to voltage spikes and running on a portable generator.
Thanks for the information. We have a gas oven on a circuit that is fed by a 20A AFCI breaker. It has started to trip frequently when turning on the oven. Suspect that the AFCI is detecting a fault when the oven igniter clicks on. Also noted that the AFCI pigtail on the breaker is stretched out quite (not in a tight spiral like the others) a bit to connect to the ground bar. Would that potentially affect breaker performance?
I like your statement. "Why not say every room in the house." OMG laughing so hard I almost had a "moment." I laughed very HARD AT THAT POINT. We have an ARC welder. It is hugely expensive to use so we bout a gas generator for that thing to save our electric bill from making me cry. So many things are brushless now. Not sure how many things we plug in still ARC as part of operation. I plan on being in my house probably for the rest of my life so with that in mind I tend to think everything should be AFCI and GFCI. I never even understood this as a thing until I installed the above ground salt water pool. Had to put in a PED for that. Own CI. GFIC. and did a copper "bonding ring" around the pool under the rocks and gravel. We ran a wire to the pump, the pool heater (wood fired) and the chlorinator thinger on the PED pole for the pool power. We did put in a 20A GFIC plug. Mom said I needed one there no matter what was in my breaker box so I did it. Not sure I put the correct one in. 15,20, 25 amp. Now I need to go back and look at that.
"We came up with this new stuff that no one really needs, and no one wants. Can you help us sell it?" NEC "Yeah, we got you, fam. Boom, rule change. You're welcome. Where's my kickback?"
We just built a house and the electrician decided to put AFCI breakers on every circuit rather than thinking. This includes a 220v outlet I specifically told him was for a welder. The sub panel has 39 breakers and is noticeably hot.
Trip lite isobar or similat for things like old thread mills that tend to nuance trip afci. For the welders I assume the manufacturers can filter out the noise of the arc. I would think modern inverter style already do.
I had a bad experience with the first AFCI's made, they caused severe RFI buzz on all my AM radios in the house. It's good to have "safer" electrical protection of branch circuits, but.... One thing about having a Load center (CB panel) full of AFCIs and GFCIs and all the electronics in those devices consume a minute amount of electricity, add them all together and that increases your electrical usage all day long, increasing your monthly utility bill! So we are paying higher electric bills and much higher cost for breakers. just to be a little bit safer. Why can't someone come up with something that's safer and does not increase your cost?
That's the problem with having the manufacturers write our codes for us. There's no cost/benefit analysis being done. All the benefit goes to the manufacturers and all the cost goes to the consumer.
I love your videos. This one got me thinking. Should I replace one of the receptacles in my garage with a GFCI (I assume that will protect the entire circuit) If I’m running an extension cord to my driveway from the garage there’s a chance it could be exposed to water.
In Canada, those receptacles do not need to be AFCI combi protected. (1) kitchen counter tops (2) fridge (3) fire place (4) dishwasher (5) washroom (6) build-in microwave
@@richardwhite6702 have a question here please. Code says GFCI is required when plug is within 1.5 meter away from sink. Does this apply to 240v receptacles? And 120v 30 amp receptacle?
I'm still not convinced AFCI breakers actually make a home safer. I'm pretty sure it's just to force you to buy annoying snake oil. Someone was paid off for this. I've only seen arc faults in worn out power cords for portable appliances. I once thought it was an excellent idea for hair dryers and electric blankets. Then, I realized I had to reset the AFCI every time I wanted to use the outlet. It couldn't supply power constantly for a full 12 hours without tripping even when nothing was plugged into the outlet. The outlet lasted for about a year when I had to replace it. They still haven't designed a plug and play receptacle solution. Electrical wires are not meant to be messed with but once in like 10 years, but they want us to replace receptacles once a year. Even if they do work, corded blenders and such use brushed motors. I guess arcing appliances will be banned or will be forced into obsolescence. People will need to use acetylene torches if they want to weld at home.
I'll never forget a call to troubleshoot a nuisance tripping of two AFCI breakers in a brand new home. Turns out, a faulty fan in the oven...a circuit that had absolutely nothing to do with the circuits that were tripping was causing enough "noise" to trip the adjacent AFCI breakers in the panel. It was there and then I decided AFCIs we're complete junk.
Bought a home that had the majority of the breakers “upgraded” to AFCI… my printer would periodically trip the breaker… totally annoying… then for no reason the AFCI breaker to the refrigerator tripped while we were out of town. Threw away a lot of food that day. After that I replaced all the AFCI breakers with non AFCI. Haven’t had any issues since. Seems AFCI are too sensitive for some appliances and electronics.
The simple solution for dwelling units is just manufacture main circuit breakers with afci protection and cover everything, including bathrooms, outdoor receptacles and garages. The only problem about arc fault is any device or appliance with a universal motor that has brushes that arc by design. Vacuum cleaners especially.
I just realized my renovation plan: 1) Cram the existing panel with the few normal breakers that will fit. 2) Later, sell car to afford electrician to replace panel + breakers. Until #2 happens, I'll be violating code, despite the house being infinitely SAFER than its currently code-compliant rat's nest of old fuse boxes, no-ground circuits, crumbling cloth wires, and broken dreams.
AFCIs and AFDDs are essentially current and voltage signal detection devices a set of transient arc-like signatures series or parallel will throw off a specific signal however that’s under ideal laboratory conditions. Loads and electromagnetic energies whether inductive, resistive capacitive or other EMIs can mimick these signatures and set them off. With better load measurement and signature capture in a home environment that uses AI software I suspect false tripping will become less of an issue. Microwaves, coffee machines are notions for setting of AFCI devices. Adding surge Suppression can help as well to filter out false- arc like transients.
Another exception they need to put in place is AFCI and GFCI outlets or breakers are not required for refrigerators and sump pumps because hundreds of dollars worth of food will be ruined if either the AFCI or GFCI trips Especially the sump pump and there's a heavy rain going on , Definitely you don't want a GFCI nor an AFCI on the sump pump Just be sure the circuit is properly grounded At home several years ago there was a heavy rain and the breaker for the sump pump tripped and flooded the basement , The breaker was a GFCI and I took the breaker out and replaced it with a standard breaker Luckily my mom had flood insurance that if the basement flooded due to sump pump failure , It's covered for water damage and the cost of a disaster clean up crew to clean up the mess
It's also worth remembering that your jurisdictions adopted code might have different AFCI requirements. For example, Oregon code doesn't give a shit about AFCI protection anywhere except for residential new construction, and even then that requirement is fairly lax compared to the NEC. Always check your local codes, you can potentially save the customer a pretty penny
Could you some day dool a pool electricity video if you did not do so already? Thanks in advance. I am learning a lot from your videos already posted. I am binge watching them like "Star Trek Picard or Game of thrones." I have a lot to check before my chores this weekend. I might find I did some of the work wrong and have to go back and correct it. Your videos are fixing a lot of my wrong thinking.
I have an electrician coming to install an 20 amp circuit. I am going to buy the parts. He looked at my panel and told me to get ECMBR2 but when I looked that up it was a clip. How do I determine what breaker I need? I found one that would work that was GFCI but I want to get the basic breaker and have GFCI outlets installed. The label on the panel is a Murray.
One of our AFCIs keeps tripping randomly. Usually goes 2-4 months between trips. It's been happening so long, to the point where the breaker itself is loose from so many resets. I've messed with the outlets, trying to see if maybe there was a loose connection at one of them. And banged on parts of the walls where I believe the romex runs through. But nothing happens. There are no big loads on the circuit. A few (2) device chargers, a small 32in smart tv, 2 light bulb fixtures on separate switches, and an extractor fan. (Circuit is connected to the bathroom across the hallway, for the fan and a light. The outlet is on the master bathroom's circuit) We've given up for now, and just reset it when it trips. I'll probably swap the breaker with another bedroom, and see if it's the breaker itself, or something with the circuit. I've just been too lazy to do it.
Dustin ---- or Anyone else want to try to answer this question? If I'm changing out an old service/meter/main combo with house breakers, residential from 70 amp main to a 200 amp main and my local power company, Los Angeles Department of Water and Power (LADWP) is making me relocate the new service about twelve feet from the existing service location, and I'll be using the gutted, existing can as a junction box to extend the existing circuits that feed the house to reach the new location and the breakers in the new panel, would that fall under the AFCI being needed for all the existing circuits? I'm not adding any new circuits at this time, just upgrading the service combo panel.
I installed combination arc fault breakers on my aluminim wired circuits and as of 4 years none have tripped . I have seen arc fault breakers do their job which could have led to fires with a standard breaker . Of course troubleshooting can be more challanging .
Little confused. I am moving on to "Where Should We Be Using Dual Function Breakers?" next. Thinking we should just have them everywhere. So as we replace breakers in our old box. If there is a place I think it would be nice to have dual protection, can you just upgrade the breaker as you replace it? Looks like the cabling is going to be the same if wired to modern code. For instance... You put a portable sauna in your guest bedroom. Now you have heat and moisture in a room and dual protection upgrade on the breaker would be a nice feature if replacing the breaker anyhow. I honestly think with buildings that have sprinkler systems inside why are not all CIs dual so you have ARC and GFI? Sprinkler turns on to put our a fire while you are doing exz with a electrical device. You don't get killed by fire you get electrocuted. I think there is still something I have not caught on to yet with this subject. :D
weird thing to ask for but do more videos of you on job site please! I enjoy it a ton and think that it makes the learning feel alot less like your in a classroom but more hands on thru video format! That’s just my opinion though so y’all don’t b mad at me 🤣 much love! (But seriously I’d really love to see anything more in depth ab where these things apply most!)
I can see that an AFCI might spot a series arc when a switch opens, or closes if the switch has severe contact bounce issues. Hopefully the AFCI is smart enough to ignore a brief series arc like from a switch while being able to still protect from a series arc from a break in the wire. One would still have to be careful plugging and unplugging a live load from the wall (would also get series arcs as the plug prongs break and make to the outlet contacts). I would imagine that the UL certification for devices would (or does?) have specifications to reduce contact break/make arcing to below AFCI detection levels. Does anyone know enough about the UL code to find this? Doesn't UL also certify the AFCI breakers? If so, it might be interesting to see the language for how an AFCI is supposed to work with different arcing situations, at least to pass UL certification.
Don't know about the specifics, but my IEC instructor was telling us this was actually a huge problem when AFCI's first hit the market and codebook, to the point where, in order to pass inspection, electricians would sometimes swap out the AFCI breakers for normal ones and hope the inspector didn't notice. They eventually re-engineered them to differentiate normal use arcing from arcing events, so you're protected from the house fire kind of arcs, but you don't have a bunch of nuisance tripping
1. Shouldn't live plug devices. Bad for the outlet and maybe having reset things someone will learn. They should be off when being plugged in. 2. It is designed to tell difference. Big thing is bounce. Ex how many times it occurs.
Bro I love your videos I have learned a lot from you. Thank you for your hard work. Question, I was wondering have put your hands on the tesla powerwalls? I would like if you have, you can potentially make a video about them. How they work and wire process. Keep it up
It looks like they are expecting the very update to equipment (at least in arc welding equipment) that you said you wanted to see in the breakers themselves. In other words, the arc fault will not be detectable in the line of the arc welding equipment, no doubt because of some standard that has been improved in the circuits of that equipment. I would guess they are or will be requiring either diode, transistor and/or rectifier additions (or a pre-manufactured part including those things) to the equipment circuits. It's better that the equipment has the arc defense in order to prevent any kind of tripping by feedback or faulty equipment. If the equipment itself shuts down without tripping the AFCI breaker, then you know your equipment is what is at fault.
in the company I work for we have all outlets in the kitchen GFI protected and the lighting is AFCI protected. It seems like they would want kitchen receptacles DF protected.
hi, apologies this question is not related but i didnt know where to go to ask and i watch you a lot so i was hoping you could give some insight. i have two rooms on the same breaker. my wife was in one of the rooms with a space heater on. the heater shut off and she told me she thought a breaker flipped. i checked, breaker did not flip, but the lights in those rooms no longer go on. i checked outlets with an outlet tester and all but two outlets have reversed their hot and ground. they have all been wired correctly for months (we moved in recently and i tested them a few months ago). why would they have flipped themselves? what should i be looking for? i shut the breaker off until i can look into it, but the breaker was a little stuck when i tried to flip it off. it went off, just not easily. now if i flip it back on and off it moves easy
Sounds like a ground fault of the live wire. Probably the wires were too thin for the heater, or just old, and the isolation deteriorated at some point. Maybe it was the live wire, touching something metallic but not quite bonded to earth, reason for the breaker not tripping. Or the breaker is simply malfunctioning... I'd check the wires.
@@Mr.Lycalopex thanks. i prolly should have replied earlier but the breaker (and wires) are a little old and the breaker stuck. my wife was using a space heater which should have tripped the breaker but since it was stuck it didnt trip. one of the outlets on the inside completely melted (not visible from face plate side) and ate through a neutral wire. ive replaced the breaker and the outlet and had to splice the neutral
the outlet tester showed reversed as opposed to open neutral because even though i unplugged everything i forgot that one extension cord still plugged in has those wifi outlet turner on and off thingies and so there was a small load when using the tester. removing that showed open neutral and i was able to pin down one by one which outlet was bad
what if you have a customer that has an afci breaker that powers two bedrooms. they claim that it nuisance trips, but when you go to check it out everything is working. I think the house was built in the late 90s, im not sure why there is an afci breaker in there to begin with. supposedly their neighbor replaced it for them at some point because of nuisance tripping. My plan is to switch it out with a regular single pole breaker and be done with it.
I welding exception is probably due to the transformer which would isolate it from the main circuit coming from the breaker correct me if I'm wrong but that's my thought I'm not a professional I'm just an 18 year old that loves electricity and engines so plz correct me if I'm wrong because with a transformer you have a completely separate circuit compared to the primary wire and the second winding so I would think it wouldn't affect it it kinda has the same principle as a coil pack on a ignition system on a car
Will an old circuit breaker panel need to be upgraded before the home (condo unit) may be sold? (The old panel is Stab-Lok, which is notorious but wasn't recalled by the government.)
My laptop power supply arcs a little when i plug it in. That could tripp the breaker. Also I heard that vaccums can tripp the breaker. Basicly you will be reseting breakers all the time.
Regarding welders, I think the arc happens after the AC current is converted to DC in most welders, so there's an inverter and bridge rectifier and whatnot in there and perhaps the arc isn't sensed through all of that. Anyone know for certain?
an arc welder definitely does produce arcs but the welding output is probably reasonably well isolated from the input circuits that would/could trigger arc fault protection. Wouldn't be surprised if there were still problems but...... You are probably familiar with an isolation transformer: a ground fault on the output side probably wouldn't be detectable on the input side.... because it is "isolated". An arc fault detector might work similarly.
Let this be a lesson on why not to hire someone who doesn’t know what they are doing when it comes to electrical, I had to basically rewire a den add on for a family member because it all started from half the outlets reporting open ground, upon deeper inspection once I started to pull outlets and switches from the wall I came back with 13 reasons why a inspector would fail this insulation, the circuit was added as a new run from the panel in 2021. -No Arc fault protection -putting two wires on one receptacle screw -no grounding clip or wire nut on all of the ground wire splices -open ground on half the outlets -20 amp breaker installed in a circuit with 14 gage wire -bare romex wire stapled under a desk when it should be armored cable or protected in a conduit -overfilled outlet boxes -loose connections on a switch that was starting to arc -on old work boxes the tabs to secure the wire in the box where broken off completely -home run wire exiting the breaker panel had no clamp to protect it from the sharp metal edges of the knockout -outlets facing in the garage had no ground fault protection -new work boxes set flush with the stud instead of the 1/2” Sheetrock resulting in outlets sinking and exposing flammable material to electrical connections -18 receptacles on one circuit that was wired to handle 15 amps, making it considered overloaded
My house was built in 1994 and uses multi-wire branch circuits - everything is 12/3 and neighboring circuits share a neutral. Can these be upgraded to AFCI (presumably using two-pole 15/20AMP AFCI breakers)? Would this be wise for extra protection? I would obviously get an electrician to do it (so it would be the cost of materials + labor = ~$2K) - i'm trying to get a sense of whether this is something homeowners should be advised to spend on? More generally, I'd love to see a video on advice to homeowners with old houses; when should you get the panels changed (i have murray panels with squareD breakers), house rewired, etc ...? Great channel by the way!
In my experience, gfci or dual function will not work. The imbalance looks like a ground fault. But afci alone will work. But you probably want to get rid of the shared neutrals if you can. Only then can you use dual function breakers. Don't take my word for it. I am diy, not an electrician. But in my old house, I had a goofy shared neutral that I eventually found and removed. That was my experience. BTW I did this work with a permit.
It is a huge headache for a contractor working in newer houses that are full of AFCI breakers. You can't plug your compressor, saw or vacuum into outlets without tripping the breaker!
My home is 120 years old...partially rewired....but now use AFCI on any circuit in the older sections...definitely necessary if you intend keeping any older wiring in place....
10:00 welders work off of a transformer. Welding is done ins the 25-30v range. The breaker cannot see what’s happening after the transformer it only sees a constant load. This is why you don’t want to play with microwave transformers. Nothing will trip if you latch on and it frys you.
Well-stated and accurate
The breaker sees a proportional current as compared to the current flowing on the load side of the transformer. If there is a pulsed consumer on the load side of the transformer such as a welder striking an arc or an SCR firing into an electric heater - those same pulses will be seen proportionally on the line side of the transformer. Feeder breaker supplying transformer loads do not see transformers as constant loads
The load seen on the primary will reflect the load on the secondary, but the transformer is designed for 60 or 50 Hz and won’t pass the higher frequency arcing back to the primary.
Not all arc welders have transformers some use dropping resistor's so the arc breaker would trip. So there is a concern for these type of welders on AFCI circuits. 73
There was actually a fault in hotel suit some years ago. A transformer put out smoke and the guy died. There was no code for securing the secondary.
Brushed motors will arc between the brushes and commutator, which is probably why garages/workshops and exterior receptacles (that might power electric mowers) are exempt. However, kitchens may have mixers and blenders that still use brushed motors and that might be real fun to deal with when trying to bake a cake.
I've got a vacuum that will trip the AFCI on only one circuit.
This was a great video. I learned a lot about why things trip sometimes.
Stop at GFCI in your production shop. Ask me how I know. The alternative is to replace all of your tools to ensure they are brushless. I have a 70-year old Radial Arm Saw (RAS) in my shop that will trip the AFCI whenever it was turned on. GFCI is a sufficient level of protection in this “garage-like” application. A new, brushless motor RAS would typically cost $5000+. Though the shop is technically “habitable,” no one sleeps there (unless they want to find a new job / employer). Grateful for this NEC exception.
Worth the price. Some brands seem better than others. I’ve had a partial residential remodel where they were added to new circuits by Code. I added outlets to a pre-existing circuit in bedrooms. With a normal breaker the circuit stayed on. With an arc fault, the circuit would immediately trip. I traced out the wire and found the pre-existing wiring insulation gone in the attic from squirrels. In this case the arc faults stopped a potential fire that a normal breaker would not trip on.
Probably the only time I heard about an AFCI breaker tripping for an actual good reason 😂
Similar experience here. I'm glad I made the upgrade.
I watch all youtube at 2x. your channel is the easiest to understand, and your energy lends to that faster delivery.
Was working in the attic, and while I know to check both sides of a joist before drilling - the one time I didn’t / you guessed it. I put an afci/gfci outlet in my living room a few months ago and when I hit the wire - no bang, no arc flash - nothing. These things are amazing and I’m a strong believer. Hopefully we can see the costs coming down as I’d like to see them more accessible.
Thank you for sharing. As a homevinspector I am seeing many new panels with AFCI protection for all circuits and dust function breakers for circuits for kitchens, bathrooms, unfinished basements, and exterior.
AFCI breakers are the single most annoying thing we have ever had to deal with.
Foster Farms OK ---- I agree whole heartedly.
They've gotten better in the sense that they mostly don't trip as much as when they first came out on the market. But, they are the biggest pain in the ass trying to keep up with the codes changing and no consistency from city to city, and they still trip too easily.
Then you add the cost per AFCI/GFCI and or combo or dual function for every breaker in a home, the cost can be as much or more than the cost of the whole service upgrade itself.
I'd like to be the guy who is getting his palm greased for implementing these things into mandatory code compliance. It's probably the same guy who sold the country the lie about CFLs and forced everyone to comply with those when in reality it was just a scam to buy time for LEDs to hit the market at reasonable costs.
Complete scam saying CFLs were better for the environment. Right. Because mercury is so much better than a tiny filament of tungsten. A bunch of criminals is all they are.
@@13_13k they change up codes because it guarantees them a job
Agree. Literally the worst invention in electrical history.
Explaining to customers becomes a nightmare when they find out how much they cost
You got that right
Sometimes I think the code books are just there to create a business to keep the paper pushers, inspectors and inexperienced 'tradespeople' employed.
So much of this could be summarized with common language; all we need is an updated version every 5-10 years...
I think the next generation should work towards: "how do we reduce the verbiage in this thing". 🤷
Yeah, it all seems like a way to gatekeep.
Couldn't agree more.
I've looked over the last few version of the NEC and 90% of it is the same in all version.
I feel it's the same game colleges play with text books.
Where every semester or two a new edition comes out with the page numbers switched around and the questions are worded differently.
It's not just that.
It's written and approved by the industry that profits off the code.
GFI has a time and a place. AFI I'm still not a believer in. We still have issues with them and they are one of the most common call back causes.
But everything is stupid expensive. And the only true winners are the manufacturers who rape everyone on the price. They cost around $5.35 to make last audit I assisted with. They sell for over $50 trade price.
The average electrical installation cost for a home went from $5000 about 20 years ago to over $20000. Yeah, copper went up. But not by that much.
@@jakerasp and to make multi billion dollar corporations richer regardless of whether it actually helps the electrical safety
2023 actually has some stuff to cut costs, things like lower minimum breaker and wiring size for lighting. I’m kind of surprised. Then again I suspect shrinkflation will happen when 2023 is widely adopted.
I remember when 210.12 came into the code. The breakers were all false tripping, and the NY board of underwriters postponed enforcing 210.12 a few years, until manufacturers corrected their problem. From what I understood. All switches sockets and receptacles must be Arch fault in a residential dwelling.
Protected from the source. There is a list of exceptions. I asked the inspector, can the 1st receptacle in the circuit, be Arch fault. NO! The exception about Arch fault receptacles in my case was, I was able to install combination Arch fault/GFCI receptacles on dedicated circuits, "kitchens and bathrooms, with downstream counter receptacles, and on a dedicated outdoor receptacles circuit, where all the outdoor receptacles are controlled by the combination device at the 1st receptacle, must be labeled, indicating that the receptacle is Arch fault and GFCI Protected. Dedicated equipment is exempt. Hvac, heating systems. This was the last house I totally wired, before my health forced me to stop working. It was 10yrs ago. I remember it like yesterday. You produce awesome podcasts!
I have an old house with some suspect wiring. I wanted the added protection of afci and gfci. I have had only 2 problems with afci. An old vacuum cleaner, since replaced, would trip afci. Disposal sometimes trips afci when we diddle the switch. It is nice that the lights on the breakers tell why the trip occurred- overload, gfci, or afci.
Solid information from a solid electrician. I appreciate what you do for the trade thank you.
Well, Michigan says "NAAAAH!" LOL This is what I love about being an electrician in Michigan. It is literally the only thing holding me here. If they ever were to reinstate the AFCI requirement here, I would be putting my house up for sale and moving down South.
NJ is still on NEC 2017 and while we have an AFCI requirement, thankfully it’s only for new construction. The rehab sub code omits it.
I'm going to move there just to avoid afci. 😜
@@submittedbymail there is no good reason to move here. You can’t even pump your own gas.
@@n2rj and I don't have to pump gas!🤯🤯
@@n2rj down south where???? In Alabama you still pump your gas.
I just so love "Code Time"; mainly because I'm still having trouble navigating the NEC and can rarely find the information I seek. I know, bless my heart ... 😄
Lol. I can usually find what I need.... eventually. Sometimes it takes a good long while.
Im a master electrician and sometimes certain things are difficult to locate
At 8:45 you touched on a topic I am currently trying to research. In Dallas we have a 1979 installed StabLok FPE and live in constant daily fear of burning the house down. I am a huge fan of "overbuilding" and "futureproofing".
What logic, rationale, or code, would be violated if the home were rewired with all Dual Function OCPs, Whole Home SPD, and 10/3 w/PVC raceways throughout the home's entirety??
Currently trying to find FPE-compatible Dual Function breakers as temporary security, but no luck exists. Would love to use Dual Function breakers for the entire panel but unclear if it would pass inspection. The home was previously maintained by a foreman for a construction company and there isn't a single aspect of this home that doesn't appear to violate some code... Framing, HVAC, Plumbing, Electrical, everything is just wrong....
for the "arc welder" part, I think the breaker might not trip simply because the "arcing" is isolated on the other side of a transformer or inverter built in to the machine.
I think the exception #2 is saying you cant use a welder anywhere in a house besides the garage or bathroom.
I did all the wiring for my kitchen addition and I added a upgraded main service panel to accommodate the new kitchen circuits. My old main service is a subpanel now. Anyway, I didn’t have to touch the old main panel circuits but all 9 kitchen circuits require arc fault protection. Running dishwashers, garbage disposals, toasters, fridges, etc. All new appliances. It’s a QO plug on neutral panel with QO arc fault breakers. I have had zero trips and zero problems. Junction boxes used, connections made for appliances, and pigtails all Wago Lever nuts. Maybe the older AFCI’s were problematic, especially with older equipment, or maybe people were just using dangerous arcing equipment. Will see how it holds up. But if you have relatively newer wiring (last 30-40 years) and you install a panel with all arc fault protection and stuff starts tripping, it’s time to investigate your wiring itself…because based on my experience, it ain’t the breakers. It’s mind boggling to me why people wouldn’t want these extra safety devices. I’ve literally seen buildings go up in flames from electrical fires.
We just moved into a new neighborhood. Looks like the AFCI's are trip city. Electrician has a fulltime job with the warranty replacing these things. As far as I know you can't reliably test them, so they just replace them.
Safety Shmeifty ! I looove my Zinsco panel . The breakers just melt when there's a problem........so simple !
Unlike 210.12 (B) Dwelling Units, 210.12 (C) Dormitory Units includes *bathrooms* [210.12 (C)(5)]
Yeah i noticed that too. I wonder why he missed that in the video.
Great video, and editing, very helpful, thank u💯✌️
I love afci breakers! I like troubleshooting and digging into a circuit then correcting it and knowing it’s 100%. Cutler hammer tan handle is the most sensitive out there. Know your customer is safe and your brand is solid!
Cutler Hammer is Eaton. I've had many of them fail.
@@kevinh9262 u didn’t agree or disagree…
@@isaiahb.5868 Everyone has an opinion, and you are welcome to yours, Isaiah. All I know is that I just issued a warranty replacement of every single one of the Eaton AFCI/GFCI breakers installed in a rent house. The tenant was complaining about nuisance trips, so I checked them out, and 5 of 6 breakers were reporting self-test failures. The 6th would not trip completely off when performing the test, yet reported no failures. This house was built 5 years ago. I have also replaced a few of these in other tenants' houses.
The good thing about them is that Eaton provides a lifetime warranty, and it has been a no-hassle experience getting replacements so far.
Thanks a lot for this video, I was just talking to myself about this very subject last week. I have an old house with 100A and am thinking to upgrade in future to 200A. So i wanted to ask, to get the best protection, should I use all the breakers AFCI and use GFCI in plugs? Or can I just use a dual function for all the breakers and then I'm covered 100%? And if that is the case then why even go the plug route? Because of cost? Thank you so for you or anyone else that sheds some light.
Am electrical technician andIs there any other electrical technician if so please contact me.I need information
Dustin is the most expressive person in the industry. I almost don't need to hear his voice ti recieve his message, his face and hands say it all.
My problem with afci breakers is how they’re being made mandatory so the manufacturers (NEMA) are price gouging. These things are around $70 each last I saw them. And what do you know, more and more circuits are being required to have one. And people wonder how owning a home gets further and further from more people’s grasp.
Not to mentions these pieces of junk are constantly failing. My son owns some rental properties, and I've had to replace many of these breakers for failing self-test. They've all been Eaton breakers, FYI.
8:20 sounds like Levitons smart DFCI breakers. It can can tell you which one if the 7 arc faults it tripped on for example
My biggest problem with AFCI is the fact that some of them will trip on a dime with RF. One of the manufacturers even had special breakers that filtered out RF from ham radio equipment. But this will be a problem for us as it becomes more widespread. Hopefully the manufacturers make this filtering standard.
@@PW_12345 actually you are very much incorrect. FCC part 15 rules says that the device must accept any interference, the operator of a licensed service such as amateur radio has no responsibility whatsoever for interference caused, even if it causes undesired operation.
So if a neighbor’s ham radios are tripping your AFCIs, they have zero responsibility to fix it. It’s entirely on you. We might be nice and offer to help you but in the end, legally you are the one responsible to resolve this issue.
You may have a point about conducted interference as there are actual limits on those but anything radiated you’re absolutely on your own.
The general problem with AFCIs and frankly anything these days is that they make them cheap and not immune to real world environments with RF fields. It’s a race to the bottom to crank out the most cheaply made devices and as a result corners are cut and the first thing to go is usually the RF filtering and shielding.
In any case I would recommend that if you’re experiencing nuisance tripping, contact the manufacturer, some of them even have specially filtered ones that don’t trip with nearby radio transmitters. Hopefully they’ll learn their lesson and make their devices a bit better shielded.
@@PW_12345 without going through your wall of text - that device you are referring to is the receiving device. Part 15 of the FCC rules refers to unlicensed devices, not licensed. So if an AFCI trips, it's on you. It's not on the licensed radio service. I've double checked and I've even asked my FCC lawyer.
Sorry you wasted so much time writing such a long comment, but you are still wrong.
@@PW_12345 the FAA made that rule, it’s separate from
part 15 of the FCC rules. The rule covering cell phones is 14 C.F.R § 91.21 and has absolutely nothing to do with part 15.
@@PW_12345 I cited an actual rule. There are two parts to this rule. The one I cited is the FAA’s prohibition on electronic devices. That’s an FAA rule. It’s also irrelevant to the bottom line of this discussion - AFCI breakers are part 15 devices. They must accept any interference by licensed radio services. Even if it causes undesired operation. Period.
And the solution for this is for manufacturers to make their products better so they don’t nuisance trip from normal levels of RF found in the wild. A licensed service has no obligation to do anything if your AFCI trips. That’s on you.
What about data closets? Also access control would hopefully fall under the same category as the fire alarm systems.
Probably not. Access control is not a fire or life safety system, and is supposed to fail safe, so if it's faulting, it's better to shut it off from a safety perspective and open the doors. At least in theory and from the perspective of code writers in a spherical cow world
Things that will trip an AFCI breaker; vacuum cleaners, electric drills, blenders, weed whackers, basically anything with a motor that creates an arc, or sparking; motors with brushes.
first gen afci breakers perhaps
New home the vacuum cleaner trips the AFCI breaker from kitchen island. But not in the bedrooms. Electrician been out twice. Run a new wire took out a 12:45 gfi in living room replaced breaker. Sometimes it works. I hate AFCI breakers
My guess on the arc welders is that they will no longer be able to use transformers for voltage changes as they back propagate signals. I'm scared to see how expensive that's going to be unless they are designing suppression circuits to filter the power. That may be the case given the short time frame.
Not that expensive: Very high power MOS-FETS have been available for years now that can be used to implement a switching power supply instead of a transformer. Converting the incoming power to DC would make it possible to weld with high-frequency AC, which should be interesting.
Necessity if the mother of invention.
@@BigGuy8059 Mosfets are also far less robust than transformers which is important in a demanding application like arc welding. The mosfet itself isn’t expensive, but the support circuitry adds a lot of complexity and cost to a system.
If it were that easy it would have been standard by now. It was the same with microwaves and we are just now seeing inverter microwaves become a thing and they are still more expensive and less reliable despite their huge advantages.
While my neighbor was on vacation his power went out. When it came back on his AFCI breaker did not reset. His ice maker thawed out and dripped on the hardwood floor - causing a lot of damage. Is there a code compliant solution to AFCI breakers that dont reset after a power outage?
It's toast. Same with GFCI outlets that won't reset. They are designed to lock you out if there is an internal problem. I've had some fail due to voltage spikes and running on a portable generator.
Thanks for the information. We have a gas oven on a circuit that is fed by a 20A AFCI breaker. It has started to trip frequently when turning on the oven. Suspect that the AFCI is detecting a fault when the oven igniter clicks on. Also noted that the AFCI pigtail on the breaker is stretched out quite (not in a tight spiral like the others) a bit to connect to the ground bar. Would that potentially affect breaker performance?
I like your statement. "Why not say every room in the house." OMG laughing so hard I almost had a "moment." I laughed very HARD AT THAT POINT. We have an ARC welder. It is hugely expensive to use so we bout a gas generator for that thing to save our electric bill from making me cry.
So many things are brushless now. Not sure how many things we plug in still ARC as part of operation. I plan on being in my house probably for the rest of my life so with that in mind I tend to think everything should be AFCI and GFCI. I never even understood this as a thing until I installed the above ground salt water pool. Had to put in a PED for that. Own CI. GFIC. and did a copper "bonding ring" around the pool under the rocks and gravel.
We ran a wire to the pump, the pool heater (wood fired) and the chlorinator thinger on the PED pole for the pool power. We did put in a 20A GFIC plug. Mom said I needed one there no matter what was in my breaker box so I did it. Not sure I put the correct one in. 15,20, 25 amp. Now I need to go back and look at that.
"We came up with this new stuff that no one really needs, and no one wants. Can you help us sell it?"
NEC "Yeah, we got you, fam. Boom, rule change. You're welcome. Where's my kickback?"
We just built a house and the electrician decided to put AFCI breakers on every circuit rather than thinking. This includes a 220v outlet I specifically told him was for a welder. The sub panel has 39 breakers and is noticeably hot.
Trip lite isobar or similat for things like old thread mills that tend to nuance trip afci. For the welders I assume the manufacturers can filter out the noise of the arc. I would think modern inverter style already do.
I had a bad experience with the first AFCI's made, they caused severe RFI buzz on all my AM radios in the house. It's good to have "safer" electrical protection of branch circuits, but.... One thing about having a Load center (CB panel) full of AFCIs and GFCIs and all the electronics in those devices consume a minute amount of electricity, add them all together and that increases your electrical usage all day long, increasing your monthly utility bill! So we are paying higher electric bills and much higher cost for breakers. just to be a little bit safer. Why can't someone come up with something that's safer and does not increase your cost?
there worthless and cause trouble anyway
That's the problem with having the manufacturers write our codes for us. There's no cost/benefit analysis being done. All the benefit goes to the manufacturers and all the cost goes to the consumer.
Ya nah Ya, we're talking a watt or 2 each. You pay for insurance? Consider it a small price in that expense column.
I love your videos. This one got me thinking. Should I replace one of the receptacles in my garage with a GFCI (I assume that will protect the entire circuit) If I’m running an extension cord to my driveway from the garage there’s a chance it could be exposed to water.
New sub here 👍,may I say from I've been watching your videos,my brain is bursting with knowledge/ information
In Canada, those receptacles do not need to be AFCI combi protected.
(1) kitchen counter tops
(2) fridge
(3) fire place
(4) dishwasher
(5) washroom
(6) build-in microwave
Dishwasher only if it's hardwired...
Also, not for sump pump, electric ranges, block heaters as per rule 8-400, and dryers...
@@richardwhite6702 have a question here please. Code says GFCI is required when plug is within 1.5 meter away from sink. Does this apply to 240v receptacles? And 120v 30 amp receptacle?
I'm still not convinced AFCI breakers actually make a home safer. I'm pretty sure it's just to force you to buy annoying snake oil. Someone was paid off for this. I've only seen arc faults in worn out power cords for portable appliances. I once thought it was an excellent idea for hair dryers and electric blankets. Then, I realized I had to reset the AFCI every time I wanted to use the outlet. It couldn't supply power constantly for a full 12 hours without tripping even when nothing was plugged into the outlet. The outlet lasted for about a year when I had to replace it. They still haven't designed a plug and play receptacle solution. Electrical wires are not meant to be messed with but once in like 10 years, but they want us to replace receptacles once a year. Even if they do work, corded blenders and such use brushed motors. I guess arcing appliances will be banned or will be forced into obsolescence. People will need to use acetylene torches if they want to weld at home.
I'll never forget a call to troubleshoot a nuisance tripping of two AFCI breakers in a brand new home. Turns out, a faulty fan in the oven...a circuit that had absolutely nothing to do with the circuits that were tripping was causing enough "noise" to trip the adjacent AFCI breakers in the panel. It was there and then I decided AFCIs we're complete junk.
Bought a home that had the majority of the breakers “upgraded” to AFCI… my printer would periodically trip the breaker… totally annoying… then for no reason the AFCI breaker to the refrigerator tripped while we were out of town. Threw away a lot of food that day. After that I replaced all the AFCI breakers with non AFCI. Haven’t had any issues since.
Seems AFCI are too sensitive for some appliances and electronics.
Indeed they are
The simple solution for dwelling units is just manufacture main circuit breakers with afci protection and cover everything, including bathrooms, outdoor receptacles and garages. The only problem about arc fault is any device or appliance with a universal motor that has brushes that arc by design. Vacuum cleaners especially.
I just realized my renovation plan:
1) Cram the existing panel with the few normal breakers that will fit.
2) Later, sell car to afford electrician to replace panel + breakers.
Until #2 happens, I'll be violating code, despite the house being infinitely SAFER than its currently code-compliant rat's nest of old fuse boxes, no-ground circuits, crumbling cloth wires, and broken dreams.
AFCIs and AFDDs are essentially current and voltage signal detection devices a set of transient arc-like signatures series or parallel will throw off a specific signal however that’s under ideal laboratory conditions. Loads and electromagnetic energies whether inductive, resistive capacitive or other EMIs can mimick these signatures and set them off. With better load measurement and signature capture in a home environment that uses AI software I suspect false tripping will become less of an issue. Microwaves, coffee machines are notions for setting of AFCI devices. Adding surge
Suppression can help as well to filter out false- arc like transients.
Good points,great info. Thank you Jeston.
You should do a video about tap conductors and their rules
I find it amusing that bathrooms in dwelling units do not have to have AFCI protection, but bathrooms in dorms do.
YOU HAVE EXCEED YOUR "SO" QUOTA OF THE DAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ok
ummm
Another exception they need to put in place is AFCI and GFCI outlets or breakers are not required for refrigerators and sump pumps because hundreds of dollars worth of food will be ruined if either the AFCI or GFCI trips
Especially the sump pump and there's a heavy rain going on , Definitely you don't want a GFCI nor an AFCI on the sump pump
Just be sure the circuit is properly grounded
At home several years ago there was a heavy rain and the breaker for the sump pump tripped and flooded the basement , The breaker was a GFCI and I took the breaker out and replaced it with a standard breaker
Luckily my mom had flood insurance that if the basement flooded due to sump pump failure , It's covered for water damage and the cost of a disaster clean up crew to clean up the mess
It's also worth remembering that your jurisdictions adopted code might have different AFCI requirements.
For example, Oregon code doesn't give a shit about AFCI protection anywhere except for residential new construction, and even then that requirement is fairly lax compared to the NEC.
Always check your local codes, you can potentially save the customer a pretty penny
Could you some day dool a pool electricity video if you did not do so already? Thanks in advance. I am learning a lot from your videos already posted. I am binge watching them like "Star Trek Picard or Game of thrones." I have a lot to check before my chores this weekend. I might find I did some of the work wrong and have to go back and correct it. Your videos are fixing a lot of my wrong thinking.
So basically what I understood is if there is any modification done or change you need to add a afci breaker?? And not a regular breaker
Very well explained
I have an electrician coming to install an 20 amp circuit. I am going to buy the parts. He looked at my panel and told me to get ECMBR2 but when I looked that up it was a clip. How do I determine what breaker I need? I found one that would work that was GFCI but I want to get the basic breaker and have GFCI outlets installed. The label on the panel is a Murray.
One of our AFCIs keeps tripping randomly. Usually goes 2-4 months between trips. It's been happening so long, to the point where the breaker itself is loose from so many resets.
I've messed with the outlets, trying to see if maybe there was a loose connection at one of them. And banged on parts of the walls where I believe the romex runs through. But nothing happens.
There are no big loads on the circuit. A few (2) device chargers, a small 32in smart tv, 2 light bulb fixtures on separate switches, and an extractor fan. (Circuit is connected to the bathroom across the hallway, for the fan and a light. The outlet is on the master bathroom's circuit)
We've given up for now, and just reset it when it trips. I'll probably swap the breaker with another bedroom, and see if it's the breaker itself, or something with the circuit. I've just been too lazy to do it.
The time it took you to write this post, you could have swapped the breakers already...lol
Dustin ---- or Anyone else want to try to answer this question?
If I'm changing out an old service/meter/main combo with house breakers, residential from 70 amp main to a 200 amp main and my local power company, Los Angeles Department of Water and Power (LADWP) is making me relocate the new service about twelve feet from the existing service location, and I'll be using the gutted, existing can as a junction box to extend the existing circuits that feed the house to reach the new location and the breakers in the new panel, would that fall under the AFCI being needed for all the existing circuits? I'm not adding any new circuits at this time, just upgrading the service combo panel.
Those things are so sensitive 2 or 3 of those breakers kick every time there's a big storm.
in idaho /wyoming they only amend afcis in bedrooms but utah doesn’t amend it for any room unless wanted by customer
I installed combination arc fault breakers on my aluminim wired circuits and as of 4 years none have tripped . I have seen arc fault breakers do their job which could have led to fires with a standard breaker . Of course troubleshooting can be more challanging .
So does your main panel need arc fault protection ? Circuit feeding your sub panel ? , dryer ?
Little confused. I am moving on to "Where Should We Be Using Dual Function Breakers?" next. Thinking we should just have them everywhere. So as we replace breakers in our old box. If there is a place I think it would be nice to have dual protection, can you just upgrade the breaker as you replace it? Looks like the cabling is going to be the same if wired to modern code. For instance... You put a portable sauna in your guest bedroom. Now you have heat and moisture in a room and dual protection upgrade on the breaker would be a nice feature if replacing the breaker anyhow. I honestly think with buildings that have sprinkler systems inside why are not all CIs dual so you have ARC and GFI? Sprinkler turns on to put our a fire while you are doing exz with a electrical device. You don't get killed by fire you get electrocuted. I think there is still something I have not caught on to yet with this subject. :D
Why do they require afci protection in bathrooms for dormitory units. 210.12(B)
weird thing to ask for but do more videos of you on job site please! I enjoy it a ton and think that it makes the learning feel alot less like your in a classroom but more hands on thru video format! That’s just my opinion though so y’all don’t b mad at me 🤣 much love! (But seriously I’d really love to see anything more in depth ab where these things apply most!)
Do you have any educational material for people in VA?
@5:15---never saw a 10A circuit. Any comments?
the welder comment and afci had me rolling lol
I can see that an AFCI might spot a series arc when a switch opens, or closes if the switch has severe contact bounce issues. Hopefully the AFCI is smart enough to ignore a brief series arc like from a switch while being able to still protect from a series arc from a break in the wire. One would still have to be careful plugging and unplugging a live load from the wall (would also get series arcs as the plug prongs break and make to the outlet contacts). I would imagine that the UL certification for devices would (or does?) have specifications to reduce contact break/make arcing to below AFCI detection levels. Does anyone know enough about the UL code to find this? Doesn't UL also certify the AFCI breakers? If so, it might be interesting to see the language for how an AFCI is supposed to work with different arcing situations, at least to pass UL certification.
Don't know about the specifics, but my IEC instructor was telling us this was actually a huge problem when AFCI's first hit the market and codebook, to the point where, in order to pass inspection, electricians would sometimes swap out the AFCI breakers for normal ones and hope the inspector didn't notice. They eventually re-engineered them to differentiate normal use arcing from arcing events, so you're protected from the house fire kind of arcs, but you don't have a bunch of nuisance tripping
1. Shouldn't live plug devices. Bad for the outlet and maybe having reset things someone will learn. They should be off when being plugged in.
2. It is designed to tell difference. Big thing is bounce. Ex how many times it occurs.
Bro I love your videos I have learned a lot from you. Thank you for your hard work. Question, I was wondering have put your hands on the tesla powerwalls? I would like if you have, you can potentially make a video about them. How they work and wire process. Keep it up
Do you get any new circuit you install inspected?
Another great video
Now do you put an AFCI on a multi branch circuit with a shared neutral ?
It looks like they are expecting the very update to equipment (at least in arc welding equipment) that you said you wanted to see in the breakers themselves. In other words, the arc fault will not be detectable in the line of the arc welding equipment, no doubt because of some standard that has been improved in the circuits of that equipment. I would guess they are or will be requiring either diode, transistor and/or rectifier additions (or a pre-manufactured part including those things) to the equipment circuits.
It's better that the equipment has the arc defense in order to prevent any kind of tripping by feedback or faulty equipment. If the equipment itself shuts down without tripping the AFCI breaker, then you know your equipment is what is at fault.
in the company I work for we have all outlets in the kitchen GFI protected and the lighting is AFCI protected. It seems like they would want kitchen receptacles DF protected.
hi, apologies this question is not related but i didnt know where to go to ask and i watch you a lot so i was hoping you could give some insight. i have two rooms on the same breaker. my wife was in one of the rooms with a space heater on. the heater shut off and she told me she thought a breaker flipped. i checked, breaker did not flip, but the lights in those rooms no longer go on. i checked outlets with an outlet tester and all but two outlets have reversed their hot and ground. they have all been wired correctly for months (we moved in recently and i tested them a few months ago). why would they have flipped themselves? what should i be looking for? i shut the breaker off until i can look into it, but the breaker was a little stuck when i tried to flip it off. it went off, just not easily. now if i flip it back on and off it moves easy
Sounds like a ground fault of the live wire. Probably the wires were too thin for the heater, or just old, and the isolation deteriorated at some point.
Maybe it was the live wire, touching something metallic but not quite bonded to earth, reason for the breaker not tripping. Or the breaker is simply malfunctioning...
I'd check the wires.
@@Mr.Lycalopex thanks. i prolly should have replied earlier but the breaker (and wires) are a little old and the breaker stuck. my wife was using a space heater which should have tripped the breaker but since it was stuck it didnt trip. one of the outlets on the inside completely melted (not visible from face plate side) and ate through a neutral wire. ive replaced the breaker and the outlet and had to splice the neutral
the outlet tester showed reversed as opposed to open neutral because even though i unplugged everything i forgot that one extension cord still plugged in has those wifi outlet turner on and off thingies and so there was a small load when using the tester. removing that showed open neutral and i was able to pin down one by one which outlet was bad
اک خوبصورت اور معلوماتی ویڈیو ہے
would you explain any benefit of 240V only device needs neutral line?
what if you have a customer that has an afci breaker that powers two bedrooms. they claim that it nuisance trips, but when you go to check it out everything is working. I think the house was built in the late 90s, im not sure why there is an afci breaker in there to begin with. supposedly their neighbor replaced it for them at some point because of nuisance tripping. My plan is to switch it out with a regular single pole breaker and be done with it.
then they plug in a faulty space heater and burn down and sue you
Very informative!!!!! Thanks!
I welding exception is probably due to the transformer which would isolate it from the main circuit coming from the breaker correct me if I'm wrong but that's my thought I'm not a professional I'm just an 18 year old that loves electricity and engines so plz correct me if I'm wrong because with a transformer you have a completely separate circuit compared to the primary wire and the second winding so I would think it wouldn't affect it it kinda has the same principle as a coil pack on a ignition system on a car
Had to deal with an AFCI when removing a ceiling fan that someone wired in reverse polarity.
6:55 bachelor activities. I have a drum set there too lol
If you have smoke alarms do they need to be arc fault protected?
What about if you upgrade the panel?
Will an old circuit breaker panel need to be upgraded before the home (condo unit) may be sold? (The old panel is Stab-Lok, which is notorious but wasn't recalled by the government.)
really nice thanks
My laptop power supply arcs a little when i plug it in. That could tripp the breaker. Also I heard that vaccums can tripp the breaker. Basicly you will be reseting breakers all the time.
Regarding welders, I think the arc happens after the AC current is converted to DC in most welders, so there's an inverter and bridge rectifier and whatnot in there and perhaps the arc isn't sensed through all of that.
Anyone know for certain?
So, if you run MC wire with metal boxes on residential, you don’t need AFCI?
an arc welder definitely does produce arcs but the welding output is probably reasonably well isolated from the input circuits that would/could trigger arc fault protection. Wouldn't be surprised if there were still problems but...... You are probably familiar with an isolation transformer: a ground fault on the output side probably wouldn't be detectable on the input side.... because it is "isolated". An arc fault detector might work similarly.
should have read further in the comments, already addressed by FishFind3000.
I’m here because of an inspector. Is this needed on a new modern home?
Let this be a lesson on why not to hire someone who doesn’t know what they are doing when it comes to electrical, I had to basically rewire a den add on for a family member because it all started from half the outlets reporting open ground, upon deeper inspection once I started to pull outlets and switches from the wall I came back with 13 reasons why a inspector would fail this insulation, the circuit was added as a new run from the panel in 2021.
-No Arc fault protection
-putting two wires on one receptacle screw
-no grounding clip or wire nut on all of the ground wire splices
-open ground on half the outlets
-20 amp breaker installed in a circuit with 14 gage wire
-bare romex wire stapled under a desk when it should be armored cable or protected in a conduit
-overfilled outlet boxes
-loose connections on a switch that was starting to arc
-on old work boxes the tabs to secure the wire in the box where broken off completely
-home run wire exiting the breaker panel had no clamp to protect it from the sharp metal edges of the knockout
-outlets facing in the garage had no ground fault protection
-new work boxes set flush with the stud instead of the 1/2” Sheetrock resulting in outlets sinking and exposing flammable material to electrical connections
-18 receptacles on one circuit that was wired to handle 15 amps, making it considered overloaded
I'm sorry Ed. My bad
The arc of a welder is not directly connected to the branch circuit wiring. There is a power supply isolating the arc.
@electricianu can you do a video regular breaker vs din rail breaker??
Although it may not change that much from year to year, are you looking at the 2020 or the 2023 code?
My house was built in 1994 and uses multi-wire branch circuits - everything is 12/3 and neighboring circuits share a neutral. Can these be upgraded to AFCI (presumably using two-pole 15/20AMP AFCI breakers)? Would this be wise for extra protection? I would obviously get an electrician to do it (so it would be the cost of materials + labor = ~$2K) - i'm trying to get a sense of whether this is something homeowners should be advised to spend on? More generally, I'd love to see a video on advice to homeowners with old houses; when should you get the panels changed (i have murray panels with squareD breakers), house rewired, etc ...? Great channel by the way!
In my experience, gfci or dual function will not work. The imbalance looks like a ground fault. But afci alone will work. But you probably want to get rid of the shared neutrals if you can. Only then can you use dual function breakers. Don't take my word for it. I am diy, not an electrician. But in my old house, I had a goofy shared neutral that I eventually found and removed. That was my experience. BTW I did this work with a permit.
@@MarkLawry thanks. My ahj doesn't give permits for diy, and it seems a little too big to do under the table (I. E.: Without a permit/inspection)
they make double pole AFCI and GFCI breakers, for your 12/3 and 14/3 application, but they're over $200 ea retail currently.
@@MarkLawry won't work if you try to use 2 single pole breakers.
It is a huge headache for a contractor working in newer houses that are full of AFCI breakers. You can't plug your compressor, saw or vacuum into outlets without tripping the breaker!
Min 7:23 ...i felt the pain😂