As someone who really enjoys dungeonworld, I think this was a fair and reasonably complete assessment of it. One distinction that was perhaps slightly glossed over that I feel is of some import in DW (and often hard for experienced players from other systems) is how player moves aren't actually explicitly declared by the players, but instead _possibly_ triggered in their narrative. Old DnD grognards might want to say "I 'hack and slash' the orc!", but a good DW game master would coach them to _describe_ their character's actions like "I slip my sword from its sheath, take a couple steps toward the orc while yelling my family's war cry, and try to spill his guts on the ground", which likely triggers that move, but might not, depending on the circumstances. I really like how it encourages rich narrative and visualization rather than choosing scripted actions off of a list...
Great comment and very true. It’s something I have encouraged in D&D and DW games for years. Don’t just say attack and roll a dice, but instead describe what is going on. For some players it’s a game killer, they don’t like having to describe their actions beyond the rules which is a shame.
This is the first and only tabletop RPG my friends and I have ever played. None of us including the DM had any clue what we were doing and it worked out pretty well.
Very interesting story. It kinda (re)lights up the bulb, for players, narrators and game designers, in what RPG is really about, at least concerning one of its richest/original/essencial/magical element: the _Make-Believe_ from childhood.
My favorite thing about Dungeon World is it is always moving the plot forward and taught me how to DM even better in DnD 5e. The game really sharpens improv skills for everyone at the table. I honestly think everyone should start with something like Dungeon World first to truly get the RP elements of RPGs and grow into their target system from there. My biggest gripe with DW is it fails to scratch that itch for players who love war gaming and strategy. It's a capital RP lowercase g situation.
"...My biggest gripe with DW is it fails to scratch that itch for players who love war gaming and strategy. It's a capital RP lowercase g situation..." That is true. On the other hand: How much tactic is there really, when you are fighting vile things from beyond the stars in dark dungeons while you hear the wailings of the dead and the shrill sounds of bone-flutes and the pounding of drums? I always felt that D&D had too much "wargaming" in its rules.
My personal feeling is that people who want to wargame should just wargame. (Okay, to be less condescending, there's a Chainmail retroclone called 27th Edition Plate Mail that such individuals may be interested in. It's sort of like, what if Chainmail was an RPG, but still a wargame for real?)
I agree Dungeon World is easy for "new" players...if that means new to RPGs. It can be a bit of a challenge to unlearn d20 gameplay. Decision paralysis can greatly slow a game of Dungeon World.
In my own experience: At times, it can easily feel as though the entire "Powered By The Apocalypse" system is tailor made to cause analysis paralysis. The moves tend to be written in a style that honestly feels like they're arbitrarily restrictive, leading to a loss of agency, as if the rulebooks themselves do the railroading.
I like your honesty and humble review. I'm not an experienced GM, but I have a big story written for first time players (my parents). I think the more pared down and open system will be more accessible to all of us. I'm familiar with the math and hard rules of dnd, but running my first game in deadlands proved to be too frustrating. Plus, I'm hoping to introduce a new ill-fated guest friend each month and think that a 2 page character sheet with practically all the BASIC rules laid out and only 2d6 to roll would be a great way to fit in new players without having them read a whole book
Some points RE: GM Creativity and Improv. It can be pretty scary for new GMs to approach DW, but what is often glossed over is how collaborative DW is; the players are like “mini-GMs.” Whoever is playing the cleric isn’t just “the Cleric” they are THE Cleric. They are the authority on all things Cleric! When the GM “meets” with THE Cleric in the “conversation at the table” (as it is called), there is a collaborative process in determining how THE Cleric interacts with the rest of the world. Using all varieties of questions (direct, leading, declarative, etc.), the GM is using the Cleric (and other Playbooks) to create this foundational fictional space that is easy to improv off of... In addition, the GM ought to always be “Asking questions and using the answers,” there is *nothing* stopping the GM from just asking players when they (the GM) are in a bind, “So what do YOU think the cost is here?” This is also why you don’t *need* monster images... the descriptions are designed to be vague enough to help the GM craft up truly unique monsters like never seen before. Lastly, it is important to note how often a table can “avoid” rolling dice because you **only** roll dice when a player triggers a Move and the secret sauce here (and this is why GMs don’t need to remember anything more than the 7 universal Moves) is that unless the situation cannot be resolved in the fiction with absolute certainty... then and *only then* does a Move need to be made! This is why stabbed a helpless opponent doesn’t need a dice roll... they just die! This is why striking at someone otherwise capable of defending themselves but otherwise “not in melee” means you just roll damage! This is why an NPC kicked off a bridge and falls a great distance doesn’t roll for “falling damage,” they probably just die! This is why we don’t just calculate HP as the sole metric of Harm! That is why the game is “fiction first.” Anyway... the point is that new GMs have little to fear. If you read through the book in its entirety and pay special attention to the Basic Moves and *very* special attention to the GM section (because that isn’t optional advice... they are rules!); you’ll have all the tools you need in your GM Agendas, Principles, and Moves and your Players to have one of the most fantastical Fantasy TTRPG experiences you will ever have
This review convinced me awhile back to buy the book and give it a whirl. I actually don't agree that you need to have DM experience to do it effectively. Obviously, being experienced HELPS, just like it helps in any game, but I feel like being good at this will be more a matter of being willing to play a looser storytelling style, with an ability to improvise. It will be worse for a railroad DM than it will for one who has never DM'd before. We ran this for about 6 weeks. Loved the system, didn't find any real issues with it. It pigeonholes slightly less than D&D, but a lot more than some more permissive systems. The issue that ended up killing it for us was that 3 of the 5 people playing characters wouldn't take part in any of the communal style worldbuilding this requires -- one was just lazy/shy, but two of them refused adamantly ("I don't play TTRPGs to have to do homework"). So this will definitely be a love it or hate it experience.
I face the same issue, some players wanted to explore building the world and the creative side but two of the group were very reluctant to even explain in dialogue what they were doing and their preference was to say “I hit the monster”. It’s fine if people play RPG’s as more of a boardgame there is still a lot of fun to be had but I do think DW is a tough sell to players that don’t want to share in the dialogue and story creation.
This sounds like a great resource! Always trying to improve my GMing and improv. I bet running this game a couple of sessions would teach me a thing or two! Great review! =) -Jill
I remember the first time i played Dungeon World and i asked about initiative, and the DM just said there is not initiative, you just tell me what you want to do. Love it, so simple and quick. Saves tons of time and you get more time to actually play the campaign :)
Yeah, I’m only now starting to really understand how great PtbA games can be. They’re not for everyone, but I personally love storytelling so it’s the right fit for me.
@@harmless6813 Absolutely not. You roleplay your chartacter. There have never been any shouting. If you have a scared, angry, or smart character you, the party and the DM just know were the character will do thier actions. Very simple and fast. Example: if you play a 67 year old professor, you understand the the 24 year old boxer will punch first. Noone need to say anything.
@@harmless6813 Nah, as far as combat goes, it's the GM's responsibility to make sure everyone has equal time. Generally combat will involve directly addressing one character in particular at a time, then switching after a certain amount of actions. Remember, it's PbtA, so it follows the fiction. The GM should bring up whatever needs to be resolved in the fiction.
I found this looking for RPG critiques because I'm designing my own RPG and I'm looking for an understanding of possibilities of what has been done & what people like. This was very helpful, thank you A small maths correction though: at 8:40 you suggest there's a 75% chance of moderate to severe negative consequence. I assume that came from 9/12 or rounded from 8/12 possible rolls, but 2d6 has a distribution where central values come up more often (Settlers of Catan players will know this well); the actual chances are 30/36 (or 5/6), about 83%
Something you didn't mention and that is - from my experience - a common trap for GMs trying this system is that you don't prep a campaign like you would in D&D or most system. I won't got into the Fronts system in a youtube comment, but the idea is that the DM sets up the "bone structure" of the plot ("you have to escape servitude from the bottom of a mine"), and all the players will contribute to come up with the "meat" of the story ("the mine is an archwizard's private crystal source" - "my character used to be the right hand of that wizard" - "all the slave workers are guarded by elementals bound to the BBEG"). You as the DM should NOT prep the plot and its details, and the players still hold some degree of control over the fiction during the session.
@@godfreemorals with newcomers, especially the eager type, it's very easy. With people used to more classic systems like d&d, it can be tough but it's your job to keep them invested if they slip back into their regular, semi-passive role by going "Thief, the BBEG was actually your partner, tell us something only you know about him" or things like that at any point during the adventure. If they get too opportunistic with this power, you can always counter fiction with fiction to keep the odds balanced.
You should never prep a plot in the first place, even if you're playing D&D. This is one of the most important pieces of GMing philosophy that not enough people understand, and it's one of the pitfalls of published modules. GMs should prepare SITUATIONS, not plots. That's system-agnostic advice. There's a great article or two on The Alexandrian about this. That being said, it's all the more the case with PbtA games.
Excellent video and review! DW in particular helped me to realize that I love the granular, tactical progression and exploration of non-narrative games. But it also made me really start to think hard about game pacing and what "drive the story forward" means. Is there a strict "Good" or "bad" pacing in a tabletop game or is it completely up to the players? Do players sometimes set a story pace that they don't actually want? I haven't figured this out yet.
Great video. I loved playing DW years ago (wow, it's been a decade. Time flies). And continue to play pick up games to this day. Usually with the more rules lite version, World of Dungeons. Great stuff here, and PbtA really got the industry moving in a positive direction. Cheers!
Thanks for the review! I bought Dungeon World solely for the Fronts section that assist in storytelling. With your review I may go read the rest of the book! 🙂
Since when is a bestiary "part of the rules"? I only read the character creation and rules, and glance at the spells and bestiary for potential opponents. Sounds like a short read to me.
I agree is some ways and disagree in others. Remember DD has 3 books minimum to cover the same content. In that way DW is really short. Some of the items like enemies, don't require detailed description because they are only examples. You are encouraged to make up some of the details or allow the group to as part of the collaborative world building. I agree that there are places where the book could be cleaned up and written more precisely though. The book itself sometimes seems caught in it's own conundrum if giving you enough to jump start your own world and giving you an almost setting agnostic set of play tools
I have thoroughly enjoyed playing Dungeon World, and would love to run a game, even if I am intimidated by the prospect of running a game which asks the players (including the GM) to generate so much narrative content in a session. I'm also very curious to see how running a D&D module with the Dungeon World system would change the stakes and make the scenario more compelling.
@@samchafin4623 the best thing I could suggest is to watch some of the one-shots GMed by Adam or the roll 20 groups. Being his game, go figure, he shows masterful control over asking the right questions of players to keep the narrative moving and guiding it in a constructive manner without letting any one player take the reigns
@@commandercaptain4664 there is. GM moves, soft move - hard move structure -- these all are very effective guidelines. Basically, if you just follow the rules you'll never get a boring session or end up in RPG horror stories subreddit.
I have to admit that I am not a fan of the system but I think it works or would work well with the right table and GM, but I haven't had that experience. There is a lot of pulling in different directions if the party doesn't act as a team and it is a little weird to be dependant on the roll of a fellow PC action that fails (or succeeds) which totally shits the narrative. (Yeah it happens in other tabletops but the GM has essentially 'zero' boundaries on how things end up in DW) There is also an irregular 'pause/push' way that this game asks GMs to operate. I've read the rule book insofar as how it is a 'narrative conversation' but the way the player "asks" and rolls with totally undetermined consequences until the roll is bad is hard to gauge. For the people who like "Well, I do this!" style gaming this is the system for you but you can get punished severely by attempting over the top asks. Also, there are not any storybooks as far as I know so you have to depend on your GM for making something good.
I disagree. The GM has a lot of ability to place boundaries on the outcomes. The GM still has control of the outcome of a move in any roll and is free to negotiate what a good outcome is. If you aren't doing this, that might be why it seems like the game is running off the tracks. Like mentioned in the video, the GM is free to offer multiple choices as to what a good outcome is for a roll, in the same way as the can for bad rolls as well. Can you give a more specific example of where you think one of these situations happens?
@@AnonymousOtters I appreciate the edit and I agree with you in the general sense, but I can see how my post can be read as though the the "GM can't set boundaries due to the fluid improv nature of the game" where I meant "there are no boundaries on the GM (i.e. they set the boundaries) so one sequence of good/bad dice rolls and the GM's imagination can pull the game in a different direction". I've never GMed the game but have played a half a dozen one-shots of it, and admittedly the GM wasn't good any of those times, but in those sessions things could snowball sideways because one character chases the high of good dice rolls or is trying to stop the shitstorm of bad dice rolls by more dice rolls. Either way, the other players are sitting there waiting for the outcome 7-9/10-12 and what happens next or the 6-1 and still waiting for what happens next but things just got worse. I can't remember the details but a failed pit pocket by the thief became a riot but the whole party became wanted because we ran away together. It's not the first time it has happened in a game but it took something like 30 seconds. As simple as the game reads on paper I think it needs a more responsive and fair GM than what D&D GM's tend to be. There is a book but there is no actual world and the lack of action economy can fuck things up.
@@Thanatos-- Not to be pedantic but the GM actually DOES have boundaries. Whenever they do something, they have a very specific list of things they can do. Those are the only things they can do at any of the 3 general times they can do something (i.e. when the players look at them to find out what happens, when they give the GM a golden opportunity, or when they fail a roll). And yes, the GM moves can be interpreted quite broadly, but there's still a very specific structure to it.
@@mrmiffmiff There are boundaries but they aren't in the same vein of the rigid/narrow scope of D&D or Pathfinder. I'm biased against the system because of the less than fun experiences I've had and the constant aspect of the 'unknown' being so powerful compared to other systems.
I would note that a good GM shouldn't make unreasonable things happen on a roll. One of the key Moves is "tell the consequences and ask" which the GM should use for such cases. Like "If you try stabbing the dragon in the face, you can roll Hack and Slash, but if you fail, it will roast you with its fire. What do you do?"
1:03 Alignment, deciding a quest, giving your monsters some thought. These quotes can be applied to either mechanics of the games or things you're supposed to do in or out of game. 5:37 Agree that is a bad thing about Dungeon World. My fav thing about 5e and other games is the art in the books. But think I know why they went with that (other than lacking funding probably), it's because if you have images of something in the game system it might take precedence over what you'd come up with to depict it. Like you said its like you're expected to have some experience running RPGs already. Good thing the GM section is pretty good. I especially like the chapter about introducing new players to RPGs.
There is an 84% (not 75%) chance of an inferior outcome. The correct approx. probabilities are: Fail: 42% Partial Success: 42% Success: 17% This is because there are multiple ways two dice can give the same result for all but the 2 and 12, some more and some less. Thank you for your video it is very helpful.
I have to book and it's really good in many ways. Everything is very easy for the players, because they only have to know the rules for their own character, but I think it's way too resistive on what. race/class combinations are possible. I has a lot of good idea on how to make a fun adventure for the DM. I think they could have described the combat system a little better though. I had a hard time understanding it because it's so radically different from anything else I have tried. The book also lack some help for the DM in how to scale the mosters.
Technically, a 6- allows the GM to "make as hard a move as you like." If there is an obvious hard move whose consequence has already been foreshadowed, that's probably the one you want to go for. If not, a soft move is fine, or even a pivot to another character, putting them in a spot caused by the first character's mistake. Hope this helps!
I went to pick this up from my local stoe after your review and was shocked at how poor the books presentation was with the the single, too-narrow column layout, cheap feeling paper and especially the bad art. However I just watched your review again and it does sound like if I can ignore how meh it all looks there's a good game in there. So i'll go back and grab it after all
6- is not failure. It can be a success for whatever the player was trying. There's just the consequences as described in addition to the success of failure of the action.
Perceived loss is greater than perceived gain. We perceive a 20 roll as more and/or better than a 12, even when both produce the same effect. Its a matter of habit.
Saying the player sheets aren't printer-friendly... I feel like it's reasonable to expect people to be able to press "scale to printable area" in our year of the Lord 2023.
As a GM with decades of experience, I found the book's core system simple, but the rest of the book confusing. DM moves? Why am I constrained to moves? Then I realized that these are the same things that I've always done as a DM. The majority of the book's advice is redundant for an experienced DM, but I can see how a total beginner can learn good GMing skills if they read through everything.
To each their own. I personally knew within the first half an hour of playing Apocalypse World that I absolutely hated anything that would be Powered By the Apocalypse lol
Murder hoboism is a D&D trait that is probably an unintended consequence of Gary Gygax trying to transform a dungeon crawler system into something bigger. That doesnt happen in most modern systems. The problem with D&D and d20 overall is that it was designed for dungeon crawling and not for larger world settings. Once big worlds were added in, the whole system ends up being a murder hobo fest since it requires tons of rules to support the basic combat and statistic system. Regarding the review, a more sophisticated system than that is the Star Wars from Fantasy Flight. It adds more layers of choices into the narrative and it is as fast paced. Having said that, the simplicity of this system should actually be more suitable for advanced players and GM since they will have wauly more experience narrating and understanding in-game events.
While, like many have said, Dungeon world has been a game changer for the rpg world I can't help but feel that that same success has been marred by the controversy concerning kobel.
Dude has basically fallen off the planet. Comes a point it's probably best to forget about it and move on. Some folks do hold grudges like a dwarf though.
If you want one from the other side try Wicked Ones. You are the bad guys in the dungeon stopping adventurers. I'd say it's even cleaner and simpler than this.
I feel it’s really important to point out that this game system is created by Vincent Baker, a luminary in the Indie RPG movement. His game Apocalypse World is the template they used to reskin into a D&D-themed game. Saying the system is “Powered by the Apocalypse” doesn’t do nearly enough to credit Baker for his role in creating this system. Every time I hear these two people given credit for creating the game system, it makes me unhappy. Vincent Baker deserves credit. Spread the word!
I use Index Card RPG with two d20s to recreate the DW partial success possibility system. Doubles on the d20 are critical hits or misses. (Similar to Ironsworn)
I don't think so, but I am curious what you mean by an imbalance. Because it is a narrative system, and your party should be working together, it doesn't really add much. Plus, at least in my experience, the parties stay pretty close in levelv and would ask be reaching this decision at nearly the same time
Probability of the dice, 2d6 has what is known as a bell curve, meaning you’re more likely to roll something in the middle like a 7, because 6+1=7 or 5+2=7 and 3+4=7, but rolling a single d12 you have the straight same % to roll any number.
D&D is /about/ complicated. It not a narrativist game, but gamist and simulationist. Complaining about it being complicated is like complaining that a Porsche accelerates too quickly.
The battling is NOT that simplified/anti number crunch/ It's still rolling a dice, to see the hit, then rolling damage. More endless rolling that bogs down the play. They still can't figure out how to streamline a dice without a computer/game/bot. GM still has to roll for monsters btw. As some of the monster stats show what dice to roll for damage.
Attack, ability check, and saving throw are all condensed into one roll. That is very anti number crunch. "More endless rolling that bogs down the play." The book sez you need to mix up GM moves as much as possible to prevent rolling frenzies. And recognize when a player action doesn't trigger a move. Cuz remember, you only roll for moves, and not everything is a move. As for monsters rolling damage. The book tells GM to not roll dmg, then right after says you should roll damage. Maybe they forgot to add that it's a choice. Later it's stated that for static damage you use the middle of the dice (d10 = 5. d6 = 3) What are you doing? Didn't you read the book before you started going online arguing against it?
I don't understand how you could make a system that removes rolling or random chance without making things too concrete and in doing so would lose the possibility for failure that makes pen and paper fun and not just reading a book or watching a movie, the whole attraction is the chance for failure, I don't think any amount of rolling immediately makes a system a """number crunch"""" system, I think riddle of steel is number crunch but dungeon world isn't 5e also kinda isn't
@@loosemoose5217 it would have to be something that determines both a hit, and a damage in a single roll. Even better if it determines an enemy's turn/attack.
@@thetaytheist wfrp 4e does that but you won't like it, you roll a d100 and based on how good the roll is it determines if you hit and adds damage to a base amount of damage, the enemy gets a defense roll also
This honestly sounds terrible. I don't want to waste time having players come up with a new way to describe swinging their sword for the ten thousandth time. For my games I've been using the Mercer "How do you want to do this" when they kill something and even then my players get bored with describing it for the hundredth time. We keep the story in the combat by using dialogue, not by describing how I stabbed the bandit. That's the least interesting part of the combat. Whats more interesting is why we are fighting and how the characters feel about it. Maybe if there's something I'm missing you can correct me but from this description I'd rather just write a book than play this.
Any good DM or GM has always used narrative and story telling in any rpg. Seems more like a stripped down version of a RPG, any game will live or die by the DM.
Mostly true but there are some things that are outside even the best of GMs scope. Imagine playing Rolemaster with players that are new to the game and are mildly interested in learning TRPGs.
DW is a storytelling activity about playing roles not a game since is the same obtaining good or bad results. It could be very funny, but is not a game
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As someone who really enjoys dungeonworld, I think this was a fair and reasonably complete assessment of it. One distinction that was perhaps slightly glossed over that I feel is of some import in DW (and often hard for experienced players from other systems) is how player moves aren't actually explicitly declared by the players, but instead _possibly_ triggered in their narrative. Old DnD grognards might want to say "I 'hack and slash' the orc!", but a good DW game master would coach them to _describe_ their character's actions like "I slip my sword from its sheath, take a couple steps toward the orc while yelling my family's war cry, and try to spill his guts on the ground", which likely triggers that move, but might not, depending on the circumstances. I really like how it encourages rich narrative and visualization rather than choosing scripted actions off of a list...
Brian Bloom oh, that’s an interesting distinction. It definitively puts the onus on the GM to know the moves intimately.
Great comment and very true. It’s something I have encouraged in D&D and DW games for years. Don’t just say attack and roll a dice, but instead describe what is going on. For some players it’s a game killer, they don’t like having to describe their actions beyond the rules which is a shame.
This review and this comment saved my money. Cheers! 👍
@@patrickmulder2450 so you're not going to get it then? rip
@@Mintteacup_ Nope, can't own everything (Don't want to own everything either.)
This is the first and only tabletop RPG my friends and I have ever played. None of us including the DM had any clue what we were doing and it worked out pretty well.
Very interesting story. It kinda (re)lights up the bulb, for players, narrators and game designers, in what RPG is really about, at least concerning one of its richest/original/essencial/magical element: the _Make-Believe_ from childhood.
My favorite thing about Dungeon World is it is always moving the plot forward and taught me how to DM even better in DnD 5e. The game really sharpens improv skills for everyone at the table. I honestly think everyone should start with something like Dungeon World first to truly get the RP elements of RPGs and grow into their target system from there. My biggest gripe with DW is it fails to scratch that itch for players who love war gaming and strategy. It's a capital RP lowercase g situation.
"...My biggest gripe with DW is it fails to scratch that itch for players who love war gaming and strategy. It's a capital RP lowercase g situation..."
That is true. On the other hand: How much tactic is there really, when you are fighting vile things from beyond the stars in dark dungeons while you hear the wailings of the dead and the shrill sounds of bone-flutes and the pounding of drums? I always felt that D&D had too much "wargaming" in its rules.
My personal feeling is that people who want to wargame should just wargame.
(Okay, to be less condescending, there's a Chainmail retroclone called 27th Edition Plate Mail that such individuals may be interested in. It's sort of like, what if Chainmail was an RPG, but still a wargame for real?)
I agree Dungeon World is easy for "new" players...if that means new to RPGs. It can be a bit of a challenge to unlearn d20 gameplay. Decision paralysis can greatly slow a game of Dungeon World.
As long as the GM presents a scenario clearly, and even provides typical choices, new players should be able to adapt rather easily.
In my own experience: At times, it can easily feel as though the entire "Powered By The Apocalypse" system is tailor made to cause analysis paralysis. The moves tend to be written in a style that honestly feels like they're arbitrarily restrictive, leading to a loss of agency, as if the rulebooks themselves do the railroading.
And d20 makes my head hurt…having grown up with Basic, Expert, and the original AD&D.
I like your honesty and humble review. I'm not an experienced GM, but I have a big story written for first time players (my parents). I think the more pared down and open system will be more accessible to all of us. I'm familiar with the math and hard rules of dnd, but running my first game in deadlands proved to be too frustrating. Plus, I'm hoping to introduce a new ill-fated guest friend each month and think that a 2 page character sheet with practically all the BASIC rules laid out and only 2d6 to roll would be a great way to fit in new players without having them read a whole book
You need way more subs. I discovered you yesterday, and I have been on an absolute binge. I'm a rule set junkie and you videos are me new Crack.
Thanks for watching my channel!
The easiest bond statement is: "I'm Bond, James Bond..."
Some points RE: GM Creativity and Improv.
It can be pretty scary for new GMs to approach DW, but what is often glossed over is how collaborative DW is; the players are like “mini-GMs.”
Whoever is playing the cleric isn’t just “the Cleric” they are THE Cleric. They are the authority on all things Cleric! When the GM “meets” with THE Cleric in the “conversation at the table” (as it is called), there is a collaborative process in determining how THE Cleric interacts with the rest of the world. Using all varieties of questions (direct, leading, declarative, etc.), the GM is using the Cleric (and other Playbooks) to create this foundational fictional space that is easy to improv off of...
In addition, the GM ought to always be “Asking questions and using the answers,” there is *nothing* stopping the GM from just asking players when they (the GM) are in a bind, “So what do YOU think the cost is here?”
This is also why you don’t *need* monster images... the descriptions are designed to be vague enough to help the GM craft up truly unique monsters like never seen before.
Lastly, it is important to note how often a table can “avoid” rolling dice because you **only** roll dice when a player triggers a Move and the secret sauce here (and this is why GMs don’t need to remember anything more than the 7 universal Moves) is that unless the situation cannot be resolved in the fiction with absolute certainty... then and *only then* does a Move need to be made!
This is why stabbed a helpless opponent doesn’t need a dice roll... they just die!
This is why striking at someone otherwise capable of defending themselves but otherwise “not in melee” means you just roll damage!
This is why an NPC kicked off a bridge and falls a great distance doesn’t roll for “falling damage,” they probably just die!
This is why we don’t just calculate HP as the sole metric of Harm! That is why the game is “fiction first.”
Anyway... the point is that new GMs have little to fear. If you read through the book in its entirety and pay special attention to the Basic Moves and *very* special attention to the GM section (because that isn’t optional advice... they are rules!); you’ll have all the tools you need in your GM Agendas, Principles, and Moves and your Players to have one of the most fantastical Fantasy TTRPG experiences you will ever have
Thank you for this comment.
This review convinced me awhile back to buy the book and give it a whirl. I actually don't agree that you need to have DM experience to do it effectively. Obviously, being experienced HELPS, just like it helps in any game, but I feel like being good at this will be more a matter of being willing to play a looser storytelling style, with an ability to improvise. It will be worse for a railroad DM than it will for one who has never DM'd before.
We ran this for about 6 weeks. Loved the system, didn't find any real issues with it. It pigeonholes slightly less than D&D, but a lot more than some more permissive systems. The issue that ended up killing it for us was that 3 of the 5 people playing characters wouldn't take part in any of the communal style worldbuilding this requires -- one was just lazy/shy, but two of them refused adamantly ("I don't play TTRPGs to have to do homework"). So this will definitely be a love it or hate it experience.
I face the same issue, some players wanted to explore building the world and the creative side but two of the group were very reluctant to even explain in dialogue what they were doing and their preference was to say “I hit the monster”. It’s fine if people play RPG’s as more of a boardgame there is still a lot of fun to be had but I do think DW is a tough sell to players that don’t want to share in the dialogue and story creation.
Yeah, PbtA in general just doesn't work for those who prefer a more war-gamey type of game.
We run a DW campaign that was rather fun. It was one of the only campaigns my group finished and I missed the session.
This sounds like a great resource! Always trying to improve my GMing and improv. I bet running this game a couple of sessions would teach me a thing or two! Great review! =) -Jill
I remember the first time i played Dungeon World and i asked about initiative, and the DM just said there is not initiative, you just tell me what you want to do.
Love it, so simple and quick.
Saves tons of time and you get more time to actually play the campaign :)
Yeah, I’m only now starting to really understand how great PtbA games can be. They’re not for everyone, but I personally love storytelling so it’s the right fit for me.
So that means, people who shout the loudest - or are the first to shout *something* - get to do the most? Dunno, doesn't sound appealing to me.
@@harmless6813 Absolutely not.
You roleplay your chartacter.
There have never been any shouting.
If you have a scared, angry, or smart character you, the party and the DM just know were the character will do thier actions.
Very simple and fast.
Example: if you play a 67 year old professor, you understand the the 24 year old boxer will punch first.
Noone need to say anything.
@@harmless6813 Nah, as far as combat goes, it's the GM's responsibility to make sure everyone has equal time. Generally combat will involve directly addressing one character in particular at a time, then switching after a certain amount of actions. Remember, it's PbtA, so it follows the fiction. The GM should bring up whatever needs to be resolved in the fiction.
I found this looking for RPG critiques because I'm designing my own RPG and I'm looking for an understanding of possibilities of what has been done & what people like. This was very helpful, thank you
A small maths correction though: at 8:40 you suggest there's a 75% chance of moderate to severe negative consequence. I assume that came from 9/12 or rounded from 8/12 possible rolls, but 2d6 has a distribution where central values come up more often (Settlers of Catan players will know this well); the actual chances are 30/36 (or 5/6), about 83%
Go for the 6s and the 8s!
Will you do a full ICRPG review? :D Amazing videos btw!
Something you didn't mention and that is - from my experience - a common trap for GMs trying this system is that you don't prep a campaign like you would in D&D or most system.
I won't got into the Fronts system in a youtube comment, but the idea is that the DM sets up the "bone structure" of the plot ("you have to escape servitude from the bottom of a mine"), and all the players will contribute to come up with the "meat" of the story ("the mine is an archwizard's private crystal source" - "my character used to be the right hand of that wizard" - "all the slave workers are guarded by elementals bound to the BBEG").
You as the DM should NOT prep the plot and its details, and the players still hold some degree of control over the fiction during the session.
Wow! That sounds incredible. Is it hard to make players 'come along' with this group storytelling dynamic?
@@godfreemorals with newcomers, especially the eager type, it's very easy. With people used to more classic systems like d&d, it can be tough but it's your job to keep them invested if they slip back into their regular, semi-passive role by going "Thief, the BBEG was actually your partner, tell us something only you know about him" or things like that at any point during the adventure.
If they get too opportunistic with this power, you can always counter fiction with fiction to keep the odds balanced.
You should never prep a plot in the first place, even if you're playing D&D. This is one of the most important pieces of GMing philosophy that not enough people understand, and it's one of the pitfalls of published modules.
GMs should prepare SITUATIONS, not plots. That's system-agnostic advice. There's a great article or two on The Alexandrian about this.
That being said, it's all the more the case with PbtA games.
Excellent video and review! DW in particular helped me to realize that I love the granular, tactical progression and exploration of non-narrative games. But it also made me really start to think hard about game pacing and what "drive the story forward" means. Is there a strict "Good" or "bad" pacing in a tabletop game or is it completely up to the players? Do players sometimes set a story pace that they don't actually want? I haven't figured this out yet.
I plan to run this with some family and friends. Its been awhile since I played D&D and this title reinvigorated by love for the hobby!
Great video. I loved playing DW years ago (wow, it's been a decade. Time flies). And continue to play pick up games to this day. Usually with the more rules lite version, World of Dungeons.
Great stuff here, and PbtA really got the industry moving in a positive direction. Cheers!
Thanks for the review! I bought Dungeon World solely for the Fronts section that assist in storytelling. With your review I may go read the rest of the book! 🙂
ironically long heheh.
Since when is a bestiary "part of the rules"? I only read the character creation and rules, and glance at the spells and bestiary for potential opponents. Sounds like a short read to me.
I agree is some ways and disagree in others. Remember DD has 3 books minimum to cover the same content. In that way DW is really short. Some of the items like enemies, don't require detailed description because they are only examples. You are encouraged to make up some of the details or allow the group to as part of the collaborative world building. I agree that there are places where the book could be cleaned up and written more precisely though. The book itself sometimes seems caught in it's own conundrum if giving you enough to jump start your own world and giving you an almost setting agnostic set of play tools
I have thoroughly enjoyed playing Dungeon World, and would love to run a game, even if I am intimidated by the prospect of running a game which asks the players (including the GM) to generate so much narrative content in a session. I'm also very curious to see how running a D&D module with the Dungeon World system would change the stakes and make the scenario more compelling.
I would also like to know what it is like to run a classic D&D module, let's say Against the Giants, but use DW rules.
Yeah, it's not for the faint-of-mind. There should be guidelines as how to improve improv.
@@commandercaptain4664 Yes! Or tips on giving limited narrative control over to players to help spread the load between everyone at the table.
@@samchafin4623 the best thing I could suggest is to watch some of the one-shots GMed by Adam or the roll 20 groups. Being his game, go figure, he shows masterful control over asking the right questions of players to keep the narrative moving and guiding it in a constructive manner without letting any one player take the reigns
@@commandercaptain4664 there is. GM moves, soft move - hard move structure -- these all are very effective guidelines. Basically, if you just follow the rules you'll never get a boring session or end up in RPG horror stories subreddit.
This is a great review. Gets to the heart if the differences but touches on the similarities for easy comparison.
I have to admit that I am not a fan of the system but I think it works or would work well with the right table and GM, but I haven't had that experience. There is a lot of pulling in different directions if the party doesn't act as a team and it is a little weird to be dependant on the roll of a fellow PC action that fails (or succeeds) which totally shits the narrative. (Yeah it happens in other tabletops but the GM has essentially 'zero' boundaries on how things end up in DW)
There is also an irregular 'pause/push' way that this game asks GMs to operate. I've read the rule book insofar as how it is a 'narrative conversation' but the way the player "asks" and rolls with totally undetermined consequences until the roll is bad is hard to gauge.
For the people who like "Well, I do this!" style gaming this is the system for you but you can get punished severely by attempting over the top asks. Also, there are not any storybooks as far as I know so you have to depend on your GM for making something good.
I disagree. The GM has a lot of ability to place boundaries on the outcomes. The GM still has control of the outcome of a move in any roll and is free to negotiate what a good outcome is. If you aren't doing this, that might be why it seems like the game is running off the tracks. Like mentioned in the video, the GM is free to offer multiple choices as to what a good outcome is for a roll, in the same way as the can for bad rolls as well. Can you give a more specific example of where you think one of these situations happens?
@@AnonymousOtters I appreciate the edit and I agree with you in the general sense, but I can see how my post can be read as though the the "GM can't set boundaries due to the fluid improv nature of the game" where I meant "there are no boundaries on the GM (i.e. they set the boundaries) so one sequence of good/bad dice rolls and the GM's imagination can pull the game in a different direction".
I've never GMed the game but have played a half a dozen one-shots of it, and admittedly the GM wasn't good any of those times, but in those sessions things could snowball sideways because one character chases the high of good dice rolls or is trying to stop the shitstorm of bad dice rolls by more dice rolls. Either way, the other players are sitting there waiting for the outcome 7-9/10-12 and what happens next or the 6-1 and still waiting for what happens next but things just got worse. I can't remember the details but a failed pit pocket by the thief became a riot but the whole party became wanted because we ran away together. It's not the first time it has happened in a game but it took something like 30 seconds.
As simple as the game reads on paper I think it needs a more responsive and fair GM than what D&D GM's tend to be. There is a book but there is no actual world and the lack of action economy can fuck things up.
@@Thanatos-- Not to be pedantic but the GM actually DOES have boundaries. Whenever they do something, they have a very specific list of things they can do. Those are the only things they can do at any of the 3 general times they can do something (i.e. when the players look at them to find out what happens, when they give the GM a golden opportunity, or when they fail a roll). And yes, the GM moves can be interpreted quite broadly, but there's still a very specific structure to it.
@@mrmiffmiff There are boundaries but they aren't in the same vein of the rigid/narrow scope of D&D or Pathfinder. I'm biased against the system because of the less than fun experiences I've had and the constant aspect of the 'unknown' being so powerful compared to other systems.
I would note that a good GM shouldn't make unreasonable things happen on a roll. One of the key Moves is "tell the consequences and ask" which the GM should use for such cases.
Like "If you try stabbing the dragon in the face, you can roll Hack and Slash, but if you fail, it will roast you with its fire. What do you do?"
1:03 Alignment, deciding a quest, giving your monsters some thought. These quotes can be applied to either mechanics of the games or things you're supposed to do in or out of game.
5:37 Agree that is a bad thing about Dungeon World. My fav thing about 5e and other games is the art in the books. But think I know why they went with that (other than lacking funding probably), it's because if you have images of something in the game system it might take precedence over what you'd come up with to depict it.
Like you said its like you're expected to have some experience running RPGs already. Good thing the GM section is pretty good. I especially like the chapter about introducing new players to RPGs.
There is an 84% (not 75%) chance of an inferior outcome. The correct approx. probabilities are:
Fail: 42%
Partial Success: 42%
Success: 17%
This is because there are multiple ways two dice can give the same result for all but the 2 and 12, some more and some less.
Thank you for your video it is very helpful.
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I have to book and it's really good in many ways. Everything is very easy for the players, because they only have to know the rules for their own character, but I think it's way too resistive on what. race/class combinations are possible.
I has a lot of good idea on how to make a fun adventure for the DM. I think they could have described the combat system a little better though. I had a hard time understanding it because it's so radically different from anything else I have tried. The book also lack some help for the DM in how to scale the mosters.
Best review of DW in my view
This is a great video ! Just discovering / learning about DW
Great overview and nice information. I am a big fan of Dungeon World.
Technically, a 6- allows the GM to "make as hard a move as you like." If there is an obvious hard move whose consequence has already been foreshadowed, that's probably the one you want to go for. If not, a soft move is fine, or even a pivot to another character, putting them in a spot caused by the first character's mistake. Hope this helps!
Thank you! You explained this so well.
Ur reviews make me want to buy more books.. well done!
Really well done review video. Thanks Dave. :)
Looks good. Your review pretty much lines up with Hankerin's review. It looks like a good game overall. 😎
I went to pick this up from my local stoe after your review and was shocked at how poor the books presentation was with the the single, too-narrow column layout, cheap feeling paper and especially the bad art. However I just watched your review again and it does sound like if I can ignore how meh it all looks there's a good game in there. So i'll go back and grab it after all
we need a review of savage worlds and genesys please :)
Best TTRPG of all time to me and my friends
Thanks for this summary. I'm about to play a DW game, and wanted to know what to expect.
6- is not failure. It can be a success for whatever the player was trying. There's just the consequences as described in addition to the success of failure of the action.
Totally! Dnd is great but it's *not* a mechanics-light game like people think it is.
a somewhat homebrewed version of dungeon world is the only thing i have been playing for quite a qouple months now and its really great
Perceived loss is greater than perceived gain. We perceive a 20 roll as more and/or better than a 12, even when both produce the same effect. Its a matter of habit.
My biggest issue is that the paladin is kind of ridiculously op
Saying the player sheets aren't printer-friendly... I feel like it's reasonable to expect people to be able to press "scale to printable area" in our year of the Lord 2023.
As a GM with decades of experience, I found the book's core system simple, but the rest of the book confusing. DM moves? Why am I constrained to moves? Then I realized that these are the same things that I've always done as a DM. The majority of the book's advice is redundant for an experienced DM, but I can see how a total beginner can learn good GMing skills if they read through everything.
Anyone has reviewed the Android App for this game? I downloaded it and it contain the rules but IDK how accurate it is.
To each their own. I personally knew within the first half an hour of playing Apocalypse World that I absolutely hated anything that would be Powered By the Apocalypse lol
Great review, makes me wanna play it
Love your stuff!
Holy shit. I recognize the background music your using. I used it for the intro to my groups Reign of Winter games.
So, QUEST is basically this but it brings back the D20 for the grognards! 😂
400 pages just to say "idk man, make it up."
This does sound fun
Murder hoboism is a D&D trait that is probably an unintended consequence of Gary Gygax trying to transform a dungeon crawler system into something bigger. That doesnt happen in most modern systems. The problem with D&D and d20 overall is that it was designed for dungeon crawling and not for larger world settings. Once big worlds were added in, the whole system ends up being a murder hobo fest since it requires tons of rules to support the basic combat and statistic system.
Regarding the review, a more sophisticated system than that is the Star Wars from Fantasy Flight. It adds more layers of choices into the narrative and it is as fast paced. Having said that, the simplicity of this system should actually be more suitable for advanced players and GM since they will have wauly more experience narrating and understanding in-game events.
does the level 10 cap and seemingly low amount of xp required hinder this game in any way?
While, like many have said, Dungeon world has been a game changer for the rpg world I can't help but feel that that same success has been marred by the controversy concerning kobel.
Dude has basically fallen off the planet. Comes a point it's probably best to forget about it and move on. Some folks do hold grudges like a dwarf though.
If you want one from the other side try Wicked Ones. You are the bad guys in the dungeon stopping adventurers. I'd say it's even cleaner and simpler than this.
th-cam.com/video/OtLOiBnrrn0/w-d-xo.html
I feel it’s really important to point out that this game system is created by Vincent Baker, a luminary in the Indie RPG movement. His game Apocalypse World is the template they used to reskin into a D&D-themed game. Saying the system is “Powered by the Apocalypse” doesn’t do nearly enough to credit Baker for his role in creating this system. Every time I hear these two people given credit for creating the game system, it makes me unhappy. Vincent Baker deserves credit. Spread the word!
I won’t play D&D anymore after playing and running DW about 8 years ago
I use Index Card RPG with two d20s to recreate the DW partial success possibility system. Doubles on the d20 are critical hits or misses. (Similar to Ironsworn)
I'm gonna do a disgaea hack some day.
You know DT, that this is a Powered by the Apocalypse game/mod, right?
0:26
Not that I care about game imbalance, but for those who do, wouldn't the apprentice approach create a party imbalance in a leveling system?
I don't think so, but I am curious what you mean by an imbalance. Because it is a narrative system, and your party should be working together, it doesn't really add much. Plus, at least in my experience, the parties stay pretty close in levelv and would ask be reaching this decision at nearly the same time
Me:... why not just use a d12?
Probability of the dice, 2d6 has what is known as a bell curve, meaning you’re more likely to roll something in the middle like a 7, because 6+1=7 or 5+2=7 and 3+4=7, but rolling a single d12 you have the straight same % to roll any number.
It’s supposed to get the “success, but” outcome as much as possible with 2d6. The 2d8 or 2d10 work better with stats progression, though
Session Zero has some great Dungeon World Resources: th-cam.com/users/SessionZero
D&D is /about/ complicated.
It not a narrativist game, but gamist and simulationist.
Complaining about it being complicated is like complaining that a Porsche accelerates too quickly.
You dont need a D&D monster manual to get a visual understanding of the monsters. WTF? Just google them.
Love those pointless quotes!
The battling is NOT that simplified/anti number crunch/ It's still rolling a dice, to see the hit, then rolling damage. More endless rolling that bogs down the play. They still can't figure out how to streamline a dice without a computer/game/bot.
GM still has to roll for monsters btw. As some of the monster stats show what dice to roll for damage.
Attack, ability check, and saving throw are all condensed into one roll. That is very anti number crunch.
"More endless rolling that bogs down the play." The book sez you need to mix up GM moves as much as possible to prevent rolling frenzies. And recognize when a player action doesn't trigger a move. Cuz remember, you only roll for moves, and not everything is a move.
As for monsters rolling damage. The book tells GM to not roll dmg, then right after says you should roll damage. Maybe they forgot to add that it's a choice. Later it's stated that for static damage you use the middle of the dice (d10 = 5. d6 = 3)
What are you doing? Didn't you read the book before you started going online arguing against it?
@@Turglayfopa that sounds like you said it's still a number crunch, with extra steps.
I don't understand how you could make a system that removes rolling or random chance without making things too concrete and in doing so would lose the possibility for failure that makes pen and paper fun and not just reading a book or watching a movie, the whole attraction is the chance for failure, I don't think any amount of rolling immediately makes a system a """number crunch"""" system, I think riddle of steel is number crunch but dungeon world isn't 5e also kinda isn't
@@loosemoose5217 it would have to be something that determines both a hit, and a damage in a single roll.
Even better if it determines an enemy's turn/attack.
@@thetaytheist wfrp 4e does that but you won't like it, you roll a d100 and based on how good the roll is it determines if you hit and adds damage to a base amount of damage, the enemy gets a defense roll also
I'd like to try this but supporting koebel seems, at the very least, not the best
This honestly sounds terrible. I don't want to waste time having players come up with a new way to describe swinging their sword for the ten thousandth time. For my games I've been using the Mercer "How do you want to do this" when they kill something and even then my players get bored with describing it for the hundredth time.
We keep the story in the combat by using dialogue, not by describing how I stabbed the bandit. That's the least interesting part of the combat. Whats more interesting is why we are fighting and how the characters feel about it.
Maybe if there's something I'm missing you can correct me but from this description I'd rather just write a book than play this.
Any good DM or GM has always used narrative and story telling in any rpg. Seems more like a stripped down version of a RPG, any game will live or die by the DM.
Mostly true but there are some things that are outside even the best of GMs scope. Imagine playing Rolemaster with players that are new to the game and are mildly interested in learning TRPGs.
DW is a storytelling activity about playing roles not a game since is the same obtaining good or bad results. It could be very funny, but is not a game
this does not sound fun