When considering whether a Hàn person becomes a Huí person after converting to Islam I think an important concept to keep in mind is that the original people who produced this mixed ethnicity did so largely in cohorts, as you mentioned, rather than through individual conversions or individual mixed marriages. We have the same discussion in Canada when considering whether someone of Indigenous and European descent is a Métis. On the face of it, Métis literally means having mixed Indigenous and white ancestors, but an individual marriage between an Indigenous person and a white person in the 20th or 21st century does not produce a Métis person. (Unless that family were to perhaps go and immerse themselves in the existing Métis community.) Basically the Métis arose in specific part of Western Canada during a specific set of historical circumstances when white people married Indigenous people in the 1600-1800s and created a mixed ethnicity and culture. On a side note, Australia has mixed white-Indigenous people, of course, but I do not know that there were ever cohorts of mixed marriages that led to a distinct ethnic group. All of this would have had to have happened more recently than it did in Canada - perhaps it is happening right now and only later will observers put a name to the phenomenon. But I think the modern idea and lifestyle of individualism and urbanisation in the West do not really permit this sort of ethnogenesis from occurring anymore. Even when immigrants take up residence or citizenship in a new country, their entire relationship to the new country is on an individual level. But who is to say that future generations will not look back on our current year and consider it remote and gloss over the differences between the 1800s and 2000s or even the 1200s and 2000s? Individual conversions of Hàn people to Islam in the era that allows for individual identity (1900, 2000s) would get grouped in with the original Huí. Perhaps some individuals of the long-established Huí rolled their eyes at converts 700 years ago while all of their descendants are indistinguishable today. This model of focusing on the origin of the ethnic group as a result of cohorts of people converting or entering mixed marriages also allows for a Huí person to stop practising or believing in Islam and keep identifying as a Huí.
Thanks and your comment definitely goes to the crux of what defines a Hui Chinese person. Is it solely based on their religion or is it based on something more? My belief is that if a Hui Chinese was defined as "a Han Chinese person that is Muslim" - then the answer would be easy. Any Han Chinese person converting to Islam would become Hui, and any Hui person who renounces Islam as their faith becomes Han. However the fact that cases of modern Han becoming Hui are rare suggest that defining the Hui solely by their religion is not accurate. The Hui Chinese are clearly defined by something more - but what? This goes back to your point about cohorts of people creating an ethnic group. For example, if a Arab Muslim man and a Han Chinese woman had a child, then the child would obviously identify as a half Arab, half Han Chinese - but not as a separate ethnic group. However, to your point, if we had many people like that child and they bonded together, then they would form a 'new group' - defined by, in this case, their shared connection as having both an Arab and Chinese ancestor. In this case then, it seems the Hui Chinese, gradually developed into a group defined by not just their religion, but also their shared ancestry, customs and experiences that are only unique to this group of people - hence the formation of the 'new group'. Besides the Metis that you mentioned - the Coloureds in South Africa are another example I can think of. Based on the above (and with your insight) - its clear that simply converting to Islam as a Han Chinese does not make you Hui - however if you began to engage the customs or traditional practices that the Hui Chinese would do, then perhaps you could define yourself as one. The questions involving identity and ethnicity in this case is complex, and perhaps the most important thing to take out of this is that for an individual, what matters most (to them at least) is how and what they define themselves as, rather than what others think of them, am I right?
@@bamboohistorypodcast5250 The Hui Muslims have Middle Eastern ancestry, as you know. The men have beards that are longer and thicker than Han Chinese. They also have Arab/Persian looks to them, just see it in pictures.
Wow... This happened to me today. As a westerner visiting our Shanghai branch. I got a pork snack from a Chinese colleague and 1 of them didn't take it. Me being surprised why a Chinese didn't eat pork I questioned him. He first told me "out of habit" he didn't eat pork. Which didn't provide clarity at all to me. After questioning I understood he was Hui Muslim.
Tang is influenced by iranian culture ，but i wouldn't say it‘s multicutural or welcome to foreigners or open minded ， Tang is actually quite conservative， In fact during Tang Dynasty racial separation is a real thing and intermarrige between different race/ehnic is against the law ,you should read the Law Book of Tang ,and then you konw it .
Whether the Tang Dynasty is multicultural and open to foreigners is a matter of perspective. My belief is that the Tang Dynasty was a very liberal age because they welcomed foreigners to their country to live and work. Whilst the Tang Dynasty laws do contain punishments for intermarriage - it is very specific to a few examples. 1st - Han Chinese going across the border to marry a foreigner was punished. 2nd - Tang Dynasty emissaries going overseas for visits were also forbidden from marrying foreigners. However marriage between foreigners and Han Chinese women were allowed in limited numbers if they were legally allowed in China and were not government officials. To me, this is already very liberal - for an empire to allow foreigners to live, work and even marry local women was very forward for an empire at its time. If I compare the Tang Dynasty with countries in the modern day and age, then obviously it wouldn't be liberal, but it was very liberal in comparison with other countries and empires of its time. There was evidence of homosexual relationships being permitted during the Tang as well. You compare this with the Ming period, centuries after the Tang period, and they didn't even allow their own people to conduct maritime trade! Now I would say that's not so liberal.
My wife is Han Chinese who grew up in Kunming in a Hui neighborhood. She’d pretend to be hui to eat 清真 food because it’s tastier and the police didn’t annoy them as much heheheh
And I need to correct there is no muslim in China during Tang Dynasty ,because central asian are not Muslim back then ,there are many Iranian and central asian flee to China during Tang Dyansty to escape religious persecution by Muslim inculding one persia prince
Your point that there weren't any Muslims in China during the Tang is incorrect. Firstly Islam as a religion existed during the Tang Dynasty and its followers immigrated to China during this time - the presence of mosques dating back to the Tang period evidences this. The fact that Iranians running away from the Muslims does not add to your argument - just because there are people fleeing persecution from Muslims does not affect other Muslim commoners and merchants from travelling to China to live and do business.
i HAVE BEEN IN HUI PROVINCE IN CHINA AND IT IS IMPOSSABLE TO DIFFIRENTIATE ETHNIC CHINESE AND ETHNIC CHINESE HUI MUSLIMS-THE SAME LANGUAGE,CULTURE AND ANTROPOLOGY. THE UIGHUR SAYS ,THAT HUI ETHNIC CHINESE MUSLIMS WERE CREAYTED TO CONQUER EAST TURKISTAN AKA XINJANG
Thanks for making this introduction to the Hui. It is very truly detailed.
Thanks for your support! Please help spread the word of this podcast :)
Spelling out the names of Chinese people and places during the podcast was a great idea.
Thanks mate I think so too!
When considering whether a Hàn person becomes a Huí person after converting to Islam I think an important concept to keep in mind is that the original people who produced this mixed ethnicity did so largely in cohorts, as you mentioned, rather than through individual conversions or individual mixed marriages.
We have the same discussion in Canada when considering whether someone of Indigenous and European descent is a Métis. On the face of it, Métis literally means having mixed Indigenous and white ancestors, but an individual marriage between an Indigenous person and a white person in the 20th or 21st century does not produce a Métis person. (Unless that family were to perhaps go and immerse themselves in the existing Métis community.)
Basically the Métis arose in specific part of Western Canada during a specific set of historical circumstances when white people married Indigenous people in the 1600-1800s and created a mixed ethnicity and culture. On a side note, Australia has mixed white-Indigenous people, of course, but I do not know that there were ever cohorts of mixed marriages that led to a distinct ethnic group. All of this would have had to have happened more recently than it did in Canada - perhaps it is happening right now and only later will observers put a name to the phenomenon. But I think the modern idea and lifestyle of individualism and urbanisation in the West do not really permit this sort of ethnogenesis from occurring anymore. Even when immigrants take up residence or citizenship in a new country, their entire relationship to the new country is on an individual level.
But who is to say that future generations will not look back on our current year and consider it remote and gloss over the differences between the 1800s and 2000s or even the 1200s and 2000s? Individual conversions of Hàn people to Islam in the era that allows for individual identity (1900, 2000s) would get grouped in with the original Huí. Perhaps some individuals of the long-established Huí rolled their eyes at converts 700 years ago while all of their descendants are indistinguishable today. This model of focusing on the origin of the ethnic group as a result of cohorts of people converting or entering mixed marriages also allows for a Huí person to stop practising or believing in Islam and keep identifying as a Huí.
Thanks and your comment definitely goes to the crux of what defines a Hui Chinese person. Is it solely based on their religion or is it based on something more?
My belief is that if a Hui Chinese was defined as "a Han Chinese person that is Muslim" - then the answer would be easy. Any Han Chinese person converting to Islam would become Hui, and any Hui person who renounces Islam as their faith becomes Han.
However the fact that cases of modern Han becoming Hui are rare suggest that defining the Hui solely by their religion is not accurate. The Hui Chinese are clearly defined by something more - but what?
This goes back to your point about cohorts of people creating an ethnic group. For example, if a Arab Muslim man and a Han Chinese woman had a child, then the child would obviously identify as a half Arab, half Han Chinese - but not as a separate ethnic group. However, to your point, if we had many people like that child and they bonded together, then they would form a 'new group' - defined by, in this case, their shared connection as having both an Arab and Chinese ancestor. In this case then, it seems the Hui Chinese, gradually developed into a group defined by not just their religion, but also their shared ancestry, customs and experiences that are only unique to this group of people - hence the formation of the 'new group'. Besides the Metis that you mentioned - the Coloureds in South Africa are another example I can think of.
Based on the above (and with your insight) - its clear that simply converting to Islam as a Han Chinese does not make you Hui - however if you began to engage the customs or traditional practices that the Hui Chinese would do, then perhaps you could define yourself as one.
The questions involving identity and ethnicity in this case is complex, and perhaps the most important thing to take out of this is that for an individual, what matters most (to them at least) is how and what they define themselves as, rather than what others think of them, am I right?
Thank you for your great Mandarin pronunciation
I lived in China the hui speak mandarin but they have a distinctive look
Oh, what makes them look different?
@@bamboohistorypodcast5250 The Hui Muslims have Middle Eastern ancestry, as you know. The men have beards that are longer and thicker than Han Chinese. They also have Arab/Persian looks to them, just see it in pictures.
Super underrated video!!! As a Hui myself I appreciate your effort very very much! Allah Bless you
Thank you, glad you liked it! Please help spread the podcast if you can, thanks ☺️
@@bamboohistorypodcast5250 will do🥰🥰
Wow... This happened to me today. As a westerner visiting our Shanghai branch. I got a pork snack from a Chinese colleague and 1 of them didn't take it. Me being surprised why a Chinese didn't eat pork I questioned him. He first told me "out of habit" he didn't eat pork. Which didn't provide clarity at all to me. After questioning I understood he was Hui Muslim.
Tang is influenced by iranian culture ，but i wouldn't say it‘s multicutural or welcome to foreigners or open minded ， Tang is actually quite conservative， In fact during Tang Dynasty racial separation is a real thing and intermarrige between different race/ehnic is against the law ,you should read the Law Book of Tang ,and then you konw it .
Whether the Tang Dynasty is multicultural and open to foreigners is a matter of perspective. My belief is that the Tang Dynasty was a very liberal age because they welcomed foreigners to their country to live and work. Whilst the Tang Dynasty laws do contain punishments for intermarriage - it is very specific to a few examples.
1st - Han Chinese going across the border to marry a foreigner was punished. 2nd - Tang Dynasty emissaries going overseas for visits were also forbidden from marrying foreigners.
However marriage between foreigners and Han Chinese women were allowed in limited numbers if they were legally allowed in China and were not government officials.
To me, this is already very liberal - for an empire to allow foreigners to live, work and even marry local women was very forward for an empire at its time. If I compare the Tang Dynasty with countries in the modern day and age, then obviously it wouldn't be liberal, but it was very liberal in comparison with other countries and empires of its time. There was evidence of homosexual relationships being permitted during the Tang as well. You compare this with the Ming period, centuries after the Tang period, and they didn't even allow their own people to conduct maritime trade! Now I would say that's not so liberal.
My wife is Han Chinese who grew up in Kunming in a Hui neighborhood. She’d pretend to be hui to eat 清真 food because it’s tastier and the police didn’t annoy them as much heheheh
Can you make a video history of the Kaifeng Jewish Community of China?
I have! Episode 56 😊
And I need to correct there is no muslim in China during Tang Dynasty ,because central asian are not Muslim back then ,there are many Iranian and central asian flee to China during Tang Dyansty to escape religious persecution by Muslim inculding one persia prince
Your point that there weren't any Muslims in China during the Tang is incorrect. Firstly Islam as a religion existed during the Tang Dynasty and its followers immigrated to China during this time - the presence of mosques dating back to the Tang period evidences this. The fact that Iranians running away from the Muslims does not add to your argument - just because there are people fleeing persecution from Muslims does not affect other Muslim commoners and merchants from travelling to China to live and do business.
i HAVE BEEN IN HUI PROVINCE IN CHINA AND IT IS IMPOSSABLE TO DIFFIRENTIATE ETHNIC CHINESE AND ETHNIC CHINESE HUI MUSLIMS-THE SAME LANGUAGE,CULTURE AND ANTROPOLOGY.
THE UIGHUR SAYS ,THAT HUI ETHNIC CHINESE MUSLIMS WERE CREAYTED TO CONQUER EAST TURKISTAN AKA XINJANG