Will Parallel Ram Pumps lift water higher? Lets Find out
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.ย. 2021
- There are a few things that you can do to increase the lift height of the ram pump but is running two pumps in parallel one of those things? In this video I run 200 feet of garden hose up the hill and turn on two pumps in parallel to find out if the water will go higher than just using a single ram pump.
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If you had two complete parallel pumps and parallel uphill pipes you would certainly have twice the volume of water. When you feed both pumps into one uphill pipe you change the head on both pumps effectively cutting the volume of each pump in half. So the total volume actually stays the same.
And here I thought you were just breathless with excitement! ;o) Cool ram pump experiments Seth. Thanks for sharing!
Watched a handful of your uploads, Gotta say the stand pipe for a ram pump was most stellar lol. Awesome efforts sharing with enthusiasm
Interesting video thanks. The ram pump is an amazing instrument. I lived on a small farm in a mountainous terrain for about 25 years and had an old iron cast ram pump (made more than a century before) at a creek with an excellent fall down the stream. It pushed water over about 500m to a water tank behind our house, with a lift of probably 30m (90 feet). It always amazed me how much pressure was built up, and how it continued day after day. I had to go and clean it out once a week, and also considered adding a mechanism to generate electricity (below the pump was a waterfall of 4 meters), although the distance to the house was considerable, and I had limited time.
The ram pump continues to amaze me as well! Some day I would like to have one of the old models for testing. They were so well built. Thank you for sharing.
You could push water higher if you created a series of cistern/pump stations going up the hill. The lowest pump would feed a cistern near the top of its range. A pump feeding off of that cistern could feed one higher up, and so on. Theoretically, you could keep lifting water as long as you had the materials to connect pipes and make cistern/pump stations. You could also create a catch mechanism that would recover the water expended at the pump and return it to the next highest cistern, thus reducing the amount of water lost to just the first station. It would take a while to get the whole system primed as each cistern would need to fill before the up-line system could be started but it could be done.
I had exactly this thought / question as well, complete with catchment at the waste valve, and recapture draining down to lower tank(s) to give the recaptured water another "chance" at making it up the hill...
Would love to see a working system like this, if it works.
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My other idea is to have a large tank with multiple drive pipes coming out of it that terminate at different heights within the tank, and each of which would have a float valve to open it when the water level gets high enough, to kind of account for seasonal variability from one's water source, so in theory, one could always have one pipe open and pumping, but if you get higher flow rate from your river/stream in winter, and your tank fills faster, maybe then a second drive pipe could open, and ... I dunno ... increase head pressure above a y-pipe joint or something? I'm not sure whether you'd need multiple pumps above the y-joint or multi-joint, or whether you'd need the y-joint or multi-joined pipe above a single ram pump. What would be the difference between those setups? Would it be higher [possibly too much] head pressure [causing it to cycle too fast or fail to start at all] if the multi-join was above a single pump? Or would you need multiple pumps above the multi-joined pipe, each of which would cycle independently and you'd potentially waste more water, but then get either higher pressure or higher flow rate, or both, at / past the multi-joined pipe?
Does that make any sense? Would there be any benefit to it? In terms of regulating, or accounting for, seasonal variability of a water source and making the most of "extra" flow in the fall / winter [if any], while still keeping a constant "base flow rate/level" during the lower / slower summer months?
Nope. Only about 10% of each such stage goes uphill, the other 90% is wasted (unused). So the second stage would only deliver 1% of the original supply line, the third stage would deliver 1/10th of 1%, and so on.
If you connected another line to the waste valve what is stopping it from pumping the water up hill the same as the flow valve? Lol the idea works in my head but I haven’t seen anyone do it. What am I missing?
The idea is interesting....my question is how much water pressure would be needed to operate the main pump! The first one is limited to the amount of pressure your water source can supply...the size of the first storage tank would need to be large enough to have sufficient pressure to move water to the next station ! It seems that ( theoretically) there will be a reduction in the amount of water supply after each step up ! I guess at the end of your run if you are getting a steady flow / storage then it's a success.....by the way, I'm no expert at this .
A thought occurred to me when addressing the multi stage system. What about capturing the 90% waste and sending it down the input on the lower stage ram. But might need to put a one-way valve so it doesn't compete with original input.
Ram pumps convert flow velocity into height. Therefore one cannot feed another as the second pump does not have a continuous flow.
A soft hose reduces performance because the stretch absorbs pressure waves within the system.
Two pumps in parallel I would expect to increase the volume. I would expect inline/series to help with pressure/height. The first pump will need to produce more water. Great experiment thanks for sharing. 👍
Very interesting. I think I will try the inline check valve, after the pump, in my system next spring. Too late in the season now. Thanks again.
❤️❤️❤️ very nice ram pump developments & experiments , thank you my dear friend❤️❤️❤️
Good demonstration, and good information. Thanks for all of the mountain climbing!
Thanks for going back and checking that the other pump did not work at all. I would also imagine that second pump's performance is what meant you didn't quite get a 2x flow last time.
Yes you are exactly right! The 90 really limits the output on the second pump.
Even if it was a y id be willing to bet you'll only get about 80% increase.
I may have seen an error in your test. Both output valves are open during the entire test. Therefore if one pump is cycling you are still filling up both pressure tanks. Therefore the only difference is at what rate your filling up the pressure tanks. Basically preventing the pressure tank from decreasing. This may be throwing off your results.
I'm wondering if the pumps going at different times did not allow more pressure,I wonder if you had both pumps cycling at the same time if it may have shown a different result
Love this videos👍🏽🙏.
Another great video. I was wondering if it would work to elevate the end of the hose along stages marked on a ladder.
Nice test, and great save at the last, determining the 2nd pump didn't match the 1st for delivery pressure and flow rate.
Thanks! I could see that the valve was not hitting as hard on the second pump. Figured it was much less effective.
Block and tackle in the tree to raise the hose higher? Nice test. Thanks for sharing
Nice test, thanks for taking the exercise for us lazies :)
Happy to help. it was a lot.
good build widder 😀
This was a funny and informative video
thank you for sharing
Followup test to see how well they work together, is to do the pumps in the other order. Get the weaker pump working first, then add the other pump.
Great video! Question for you if a well was 30 meters deep could a hose dropped down and have the ram pump lift water to The top?
Mate - that was a lot of ups & downs to make that video. We thank you
So many times walking that hill...so many times.
At least you don't have to do it carryimg buckets of water🤣
Hi Seth. Can you use these pumps in deep wells. I have a well that’s around 300’ deep. And was thinking of feeding a pond I want to build. Thanks
Hi Seth, I've been watching your videos for ages now and it inspired me to try pumping from our stream up to the house (into a water butt) for watering our garden. I have only 15 inches of height and 20 feet available for the drive pipe. I found that a ram pump with a valve over 1/2 inch seems to be too big and I can't get enough pressure to pump up more than about 20 feet. It's as if the valve closes too slowly to develop the full ram effect. But with the 1/2 inch valve i can only pump up about 25 feet in height, and I needed to pump up 35 feet. I installed a parallel drive pipe and ram pump and connected them with 10mm pipe. The two pumps together can pump to 35 feet height but very slowly (but OK for me). I should point out that I have no air chambers on my ram pumps. I tried with various sized of air chamber but the pumps prime better and run better without them. This gives a "lumpy" stream of water which is prone to stopping, however I have fitted an extra air filled section of 10mm hose about 7 feet long to the outlet of the pumps where they join and this makes a better more even flow and is much more reliable.
I hope I have given you some ideas for another of your very informative videos. Keep up the good work
Alan (UK)
Cool experiment.
To save yourself from having to walk back and forth, you could try a second camera at the outfeed end that you could link to your phone to see where the flow is at.
Cheers!
Great video! I wonder if the one-way valves were somehow tied together in sync?
Thanks
Seth, you are a clever guy, and hence you know that you could measure the achievable height by simply measuring the pressure in the delivery line down at the pump: 1psi equals 2.3 feet of achievable pumping height. No running up and down the hill! But because you are a clever guy, you know that you need some exercises. And so you ran up and down the hill. That is real dedication, thanks! ;-)
I think that the tank preassure is not the same if you have diferent delivery heights. If the flow is higher (lower delivery height) then the preassure must be lower the keep the energy constant and viceversa. If the flow is almost cero then the meassured preassure can be used as a indicator of the maximum lift. Maybe by adding some valve that generates a preassure drop and a shorter hose would be an easy solution.
My low psi pressure gauge broke a couple months ago and I have not replaced it yet. That is also very accurate and unlike a land to house video haha
@@ivanadiego6067 That is true, the tank pressure is lower when the delivery height is lower. It equals exactly 1psi per 2.306feet or 0.4337psi per foot. There is a little extra for keeping the flow (so-called dynamic pressure). This is low and rather negligible because the delivery flow rate is also low. But for measuring the maximum lift height we want to have exactly the height were the flow just stops. Then the hydrostatic pressure in the delivery line equals the generated pressure in the pump. And that can exactly be measured with a pressure gauge directly at the pump. If your pressure gauge is not broken! :-)
@@LandtoHouse Haha, I fully understand that using a pressure gauge would be boring and very unlike a Land To Hous video! ;-)
Have you tried installing the pumps in series?
A bigger expansion tank, and a bigger feed line are the best ways to get more pressure, so im theory id start with say a 3in pipe then reduce to 2, then 1in, by doing that alone you'll triple the pressure and thus your lifting amount...
Would the valves be the same as the feed line or smaller?
Since you added a second pump with a supply line with a 90, do you think that it affected the second pump? Is there a such thing as a Y fitting? That way your back pressure is even?
Nice👌
what about running the pumps in seares amd putting some distance between them ??
Will they work in series. Would give more head pressure on the second one?
Hey Seth, I think your garden hose is linked in the tree, possibly adding some restriction. Love your videos! Keep them coming! 👍
Kinked
That's what I was thinking. It doesn't take much to kink a hose.
I have a 53ft drop over several hundred feet. If I were to install a 3 or 4 ft source pipe then neck it down at the pump would I gain anything? If I increased the size of the pump? any help would be greatly appreciated.
What would happen if you added a stand pipe to the second pump, or used a 45° instead of a 90°?
If you are pumping up a hill could you put a second ram pump part way up the hill?
It's a well known fact in hydrodynamic science, that pumps in parallel don't increase head pressure, which is defined as the output of the pump. The suction/inlet is known as net possitive suction head. This is where you can gain output. If you want to gain head pressure, capturing the output of one pump in a head tank that feeds in series, to a second pump, would give addtional head pressure.
Will this method work sir? Because i am also having a low head pressure
Can the pump work in the winter weather?
Don't know if it would make a difference but I noticed the outlet valve of the second pump is open so you are getting pressure built up in both pressure tanks.
THAT IS A GOOD THOUGHT.
Try the pumps sequentially added together. The pumps add force assisting the flow up to higher heights,
Can you compound pumps like compound turbo systems that yields huge increases of pressure
im really curious, if you put a pipe the same height as the vertical chamber before it but drilled a few holes in the end cap on the top, would there be enough down pressure for the non return valve to then prime itself, that way you could have a tap at the top and not have to worry about it stopping priming.. would that work?
Can you run a ram pump using a barrel siphon from a lake or pond?
Hello sir, may asking about your ram pumps can will pumping on vertical position on about 30 mtrs deep.
You could just place that other side exit uniseal above the front exit uniseal in a new hole and just tape over the old hole to plug it up. It will have the same hydraulic pressure.
At about 5 minutes in, I started wondering if you were accounting for a siphon effect accounting for the trickle out of the hose, i.e., since the end of the hose is drooping, perhaps water is being siphoned from where it stops inside the hose.
What happens when you increase or decrease the diameter of the discharge line?
That Was Cool ,But if Both Pumps Were With No 90 Like Yours I Think It Would Work Better ?
How about putting two pumps in series one right behind the other? Maybe that would increase head pressure
Can this work in a pond if sank to the bottom with intake pipe straight up to the top of the pond ? Intake will be 8ft higher than the pump but inside the pond.
I realize it's been a year, but I would be curious how two pumps would operate if the inlets were connected right before the valve by a short center fed manifold. I suspect the pressure wave generated would propagate to the other pump faster and with more force, potentially giving greater head pressure.
If you have lots of flow but it's too low, you could simply add a tank in the middle and pump water into the tank with multiple pumps and then use a single pump from that tank to push it higher. Of course, this reduces the total efficiency a lot but it allows to reach very high as long as your tank has enough flowrate to keep filled while the second stage pump is running constantly.
Can you use a ram pump to pump water approximately 100 feet in elevation above the creek but possibly 300 linear feet
Have you experimented with a dry stand pipe on the drive side? Curious if an extra air tank would yield similar results as having extra head pressure in a wet stand pipe I think it was. Could you get a more stable gauge reading from the top of the pipe vs a gauge directly on the drive pipe?
A biger diammeter of the air tank will increase the high of liftingbut the flow rate will be a little bit smaller. The flow rate can be higher if the inlet pipe is bigger and the respons speed of valves is higher, this can be 1” inlet pipe , 1/2” first valve 3/4” exit valve and between a 2 ” or more air tank, exit pipe 1/2”
hey bud cool system !! i think the kink on your hose where its hangnin on the tree is your problem.
I've got a question, I've got a well 600 feet deep that I'm wanting to pump from. And where it will be pumping to is like a block away down hill from the well. Question is will a ram pump work there, and if so what size of pipe and check valves would be best for the job? And one other thing,once I get the water going down the line will gravity of the say 30 foot drop between places be enough to just like pull the water out by its self just free flowing?
Thank you greatly for you time.
11:45 stand pipe? is there a video on doing this??
Wondering if first ram could be used to feed second ram reducing flow but increasing height of delivery 🤔
What would happen if u use one inline one pressuring the other if u have low water pressure to pressurize the other other could u get more lift or increased water flow
Another test i'd find useful is the influence the diameter of the pipe has on this kind of system. i.e. not how a thinner pipe can degrade results slightly when water flows down the pipe (generally known) but how it affects water flowing up the pipe.
Hydrophobic coatings are insane. I really can't imagine what they could potentially do for tech. Shitty part is alot of these products and chemicals end up in ground water and everything else
amazing what you can pick up in electronics class
Whenever you are installing water lines, it is far better to use two 45 degree fittings connected together rather than one 90 degree fitting. It greatly reduces the friction and turbulence and increases the subsequent flow.
45°round angle, not straight angle. Much better flow.
Was literally just thinking about this. Parallel pumps with the same inlet drive line with separate air tanks and then joining them back up at the send line? If you offset the action of the pump it can use the same source line as it’s only pulling water half the time? Or would that mess with the water hammer effect? With a check valve after the air tank it would keep the water in the send line from filling the other pump when one is active.
What happened to your neighbors water wheel and the micro hydro turbine that your testing?
If you pulled the 90 out of the 2nd pump and put 45s in with a broader turn would that increase 🤔
What would happen if you tandemed the pumps instead of adjacent pumps? Could you not feed one Ram pump with another? Adding infinite height to water lift… with additional rams.
In series may give you more output pressure and more discharge height.
Can you use recycled water from a water tank to run your turbine? Btw I enjoy your videos.
Can you take water from a well with the ram pump to tank at 4 meters high?
What is the cost of one Ram pump
I wonder if you captured the water that escapes the ram pump valve, let it drop from five to ten feet, into another ram pump you could prevent the waste of potential. If it worked you might be able to do it in series. If there is enough flow from the original source point you may have to start with a one inch or three quarter inch pump then the next could be one half inch and the third three eights. Gravity works!
I need to move water a distance of 300 feet and a lift of 130 feet. The drop is about 18 inches. Can it b done?
Hi do you have one where they are ran in like a daisy chain one ram pump in front of another?
There's a limit due to atmospheric pressure.
Is it possible to pump into a holding tank part way up a hill to create a new source of head pressure and then use a second ram pump to continue on in series?
EDIT: Hah, and now youtube is suggesting your video titled "Two Ram Pumps in Series". I guess I'll go watch that now.
interested in some information about the pumps hypothetical speak let's say you only have 3 to6 feet of drop but you are only lifting 3 to 4 feet high to fill a 5 gallon bucket with a one inch hole in the bottom. to keep the Water flowing in enough to keep it running. to get to a siphon flow to keep the one inch out flow going,? and what size pump would you like to have to do this work.
Hi how can you derive that it's not working while you admit that the efficiency on the one with 90deg. Bend is not good obviously both must be even to conclude ..
I saw where a man in Asia built a three pump system, so in parallel. At the time I wondered if the 90's would effect the output. Now I think I was correct.
Have you thought about trying the pumps in series rather than parallel?
Things that will increase the lift
1) Make the valve let the water get going faster before closing
2) A longer drive pipe
3) Make the pump out of stiffer materials.
4) Make the output valve act quicker in both directions
Great parallel test. Do you have a test of 2 pumps in series? Can relay up a mountain, if needing a larger pump for the bottom one...
There are 2 problems with running rampumps in series. The 1st one is that the flow rate is not enough to operate a second pump from the 1st pump. Then The drive pipe needs an open to air source.
I have managed to run a smaller pump from the waste valve of a larger pump.
I figured a tarp on a hill could collect first ram pump's output, then new drive pipe from tarp pond for another jump uphill. May need lots of water storage before activating 2nd pump.
You would need a bigger pump that can consume 150 l/min or even more, this would be a 2" at least. It is totally possible since you could pump, for example, 20 to 30 litters per minute at 20 meters and directly connect the smaller pump, 1/2" to 1", to the delivery pipe of the bigger one. This should allow the smaller pump to operate with the remaining pressure of the delivery pipe as if it was the available height. This could allow to pump water really high with the second pump but of course with a smaller but decent flow.
How multiple pump works. If you need more pressure put them in series to achieve more height. If you need more volume put them in parallel. It’s valid not for ram pumps but for any pump.
What about powering 2 pumps but 1 from a stream and the second from a tote higher up the hill. Lets say the first pump get the water 3/4 the way up the hill, empties into a tote, the water from the tote is piped to a pump halfway back down the hill which pumps it to the top of the hill into a tote. to keep from wasting water at the top of the hill the tote has an overflow pipe that drains back to the lower tote. can this actually be done?
What if you put the pumps in line
have you ever thought of using a pressure relief valve as sort of an "artificial back pressure" device.
Just after your outlet valves install a 30? psi pressure relief valve to the outlet, then connect it's outlet to your system.
so it wouldn't function as it's intended over-pressure relief, but might work as an "under pressure hold".
it might hold enough pressure in the tank to help prime the pump faster.
I have limited space for drivepipe lenght for 2" Ram pump can i just use 4" drive pipe 5meters with 4ft drop to deliver at 25-30 meters high.
The drive pipe generally needs to be around 5-7 times the supply head so for a 4ft supply head you would want 20ft long drive pipe, with 5m drive pipe you would be just under this but it will still work. A larger drive pipe could cause issues if you don't have a sufficient flow to keep it full. Definitely stick to the 2" in this case.
How about using a y instead of a 90?
Zip line to the bottom of the hill? lol. Great test btw.
1) try adding a check valve after the pressure tank.
2) try doing 2 ram pumps in parallel (if my understanding of the ram pump is correct, you could have 1 flowing through[not active] 1 active, test outflow height, then activate the other one...... and there may be a difference between which one gets activated first)
After the pressure tank, the flow is already unidirectional. Water comes into the pressure tank in pulses and leaves at a near constant rate.
I have seen many comments suggesting to stack two pumps in series. I think that is a good idea, but a bigger first stage pump would be neded. Maybe you could test a 2 1/2" pump with a 10 ft head and a 50 ft drive pipe, pumping at 65 ft of delivery height (this first stage would consume a lot, probably almost 250 liters/minute operating at 60 cycles/minute). Then connect a smaller pump to the delivery of the bigger pump, it should be getting at least 25 liters/minute so it would probably run just fine. this should allow to pump probably 5000 liters per day at almost 330 ft !!
Hello, are you an expert in this job? I want to understand this work so that I can create some relief for my people, because in our areas there is a lot of water but it is far below the population and people are at least fifteen hundred feet high and people do not have resources. are equal to, is there any way to provide water to these people without electricity so that they can drink it and also cultivate their lands?
Gud day seth. Have u ever tried putting 2 waste valve in parallel will this increase the water pressure? Thanks in advance
If 90 make so much difference, think you need do test where that pressure chamber is/feed line connection is made with long sweep elbow and that out flow valve is at vertical pipe
What would happen if pump1 at source then hose say 200ft then pump2 then hose
Having two or more pumps with just one output is not going to increase the flow rate because they interfere with each other performance by backpressure, the check valves are not fast enough to open and close and the sequence of pressure and backpressure is not controlled by devices like some kind of camshaft to manage the timing between pump one and two, so, maybe it is better to stay with one larger pump to increase output instead of two small ones.
Rather than use a 90 deg on the second pump, why dont you use a Y piece which would equal any bias out with the pressure.
maybe it was explained in a different video but what happens when you change the size of the intake and output pipes. 1" in and 1/2" out? what about the other way around as well?
The drive pipe needs to match the waste valve. The delivery pipe can be any size as long as friction does not cause the water to slow down.
@@LandtoHouse is there a cost vs benefit of different size pipes? Flow vs pressure?
Interesting....
What is pump output relative to pump location?
Is the pump pumping more water the closer to the source?
How about ram pumps in series?
Also, instead of two discharge lines in parallel up that long hill, how about 'T' ing them together at the output of the ram pump then into a 3/4" pipe up the hill?
What if you used a bigger air chamber?
And eventually with air in contact with water in that chamber, the air would eventually dissolve thus reducing the air pocket.
Could you use a hot water expansion tank?
Of course you have to bleed off some of the air in that (doubt the pumps can generate 25-40 PSI of pressure).
What do you mean, a stand pipe?
Since a ram pump just transfers kinetic energy from one half of the water to the other, could you put a ram pump in a fast flowing stream with a funnel instead of a hose on the intake and get more head?
It's hard to get more than maybe inches of extra head pressure out of this. Hard to beat acceleration of mother earth.