Great video for actually explaining the difference. I've asked other turners and the said spindle gouge is for spindles, bowl gouge is for bowls. Thats why i turn boxes.
Jeepers, now I know why my first bowl was almost a horror film - I was using a spindle gouge 😱😵 I've since invested in a good bowl gouge and a Tormek to keep it nice and sharp. Love turning bowls and also making a series of wood dinner plates. This channel is awesome! Thanks a million for this!! God bless!
I've watched a ton of woodturning content on TH-cam and this video is far and away one of the best I've ever seen. Your video production, including audio, is perfect, you get right to the point, and you taught me something important about turning safety that I never knew. Thanks!
Excellent , truly life saving. One would never know how valuable this Liston is unless he violates these rules And see for himself the danger that follows. Thanks
Thank you for a very clear explanation of the differences between the spindle and bowl gouge. I particularly liked your folded paper demonstration. The challenge that you set for an explanation got me returning to classical mechanics notes and I couldn't resist the challenge. There are two things going on with the shape of the gouge. The first is the cross-section of the gouge and the second is the distance of the centroid of the cross-section from the axis of rotation. The resistance to bending of a beam is given by the area moment of inertia of the cross-section, which is determined by the geometry, and the square of the distance of the centroid from the axis. For the sections of the bowl and spindle gouge you illustrate on your website I have calculated the area moment of inertia (there is a very handy extension to sketchup that does this for you). Assuming the same external diameter for both gouges the ratio of resistance to bending is 3.5. The distance of the centroid to the axis of rotation modifies this a bit and reduces the ratio to 2.8. Nevertheless, this means that for the particular geometry the bowl gouge is about three time more resistant to bending than the spindle gouge of the same external diameter. The other thing that this reminded me of was the deflection of the gouge as a function of the distance between toolrest and bowl. This goes as the inverse of the area moment of inertia (three times better for the bowl gouge described above) and as the cube of the distance between toolrest and bowl, reminding us to keep it as short as possible.
Awesome! Thanks for that detailed explanation! So the bowl gouge is about three times strong than a spindle. Great to know and I love how you laid it all out. Thank you!
@@TurnAWoodBowl I have the Carter and Son 1/2 " Double Ended that has a Spindle grind on one end and a bowl on the other, what surprised me is that the flute on the spindle grind is only about 1/16" wider than the bowl grind. The bowl is ground deeper by about double what the spindle is. Amazing that difference has such an effect on the strength. From the Carter and Son description 1/2" bowl gouge end sports a "V" shaped flute, ground to 50º
Thank You Kent. Just beginning. Been woodworking for many years. Off and on for 61 years, never tried turning except it was always there in the back of my mind. I now have a midi lathe and decided to give it a go. Your videos are great way for me to learn and keep me out of trouble. Once again much gratitude Kent.
What a great video!!! Two or three weeks ago, I answered some questions you had asked us for feedback on, concerning particular subjects we’d like to see that would be helpful to your audience. I think my only request was a thorough explanation of how to distinguish a bowl gouge from a spindle gouge. I’m sure this video wasn’t made solely because of my feedback, but the timing sure is perfect. I knew to never use a spindle gouge “except for spindle work”, but I didn’t know you could use it for a little detail work if the grain orientation was a certain way. My main concern was being unsafe by using the wrong tool accidentally. Not only did you explain how to tell the two apart easily, you explained the whole process where all the facts I knew tied together and made perfect sense!!! Thank you sooooo much for the content and delivery of this video! It has made me much more confident using these two tools and knowing that I’m using them safely and correctly!
Kristi, Thanks for writing! I read every comment and I do listen to requests for future videos. ;) I also try to go back to the time when I was learning these skills and recall the confusion about certain topics and explain them in a way that best makes sense. Thank you for your kind words and Happy Turning, Kent
I gave you a thumbs for two reasons. You actually taught me something I didn't know about the spindle gouge, AND, we have the same color crocs, and I turn in mine too. All. The. Time.
LOL I love it! I catch grief from some about those not being protective enough. After spending too long picking shavings out of socks, Crocs are the best for cleaning and not dragging "wood bowl glitter," as my wife calls it, into the house. Thanks for writing. Happy Turning.
Many thanks. Returning to wood turning after a 40+ year gap. Good to brush up on the basics and not make a stupid error. A very well presented aide memoire for me.
Great job on teaching different characteristics of each. Not explained this way in any other video. Your videos are the most informative of all out there. You break it down so us newbie’s can understand it. Thanks Kent
There are a lot of great turners on TH-cam, but yours is hands down the best educational channel out there. I've learned more from you than all the others combined. Thank you.
First class video. Reminded me of several things that I "knew" but forgot. Just doing some spindle turning after a long period of doing pretty much only bowls. Thank you.
Thanks so much for such a clear simple explanation and definition of the differences between the bowl gouge and the spindle gouge. And for the heads up about the dangers of misuse of the spindle gouge...
I have watched many Woodturning Videos and this one would be in the top few of the Best. Clear and precise, diagramatically perfect, easy and a pleasure to follow. I really look forward in viewing the whole series. Thumbs up - what a great job, i am sure you have mentored many viewers in becoming good woodturners. Thank You.
Great job with your videos! I'm a structural engineer and got on here for the first time (of any TH-cam presenter) to comment on your strength question. Didn't realize it was a 3 month old video. Others have already answered it: bending strength in a beam is proportional to the base and the cube of the height of the beam. Finally found that "Bell" to click. My TV doesn't have it. Maybe now I will be more current? Thanks for doing what you do.
Once again, a very clear and concise tutorial that provides excellent information regarding the art of the craft and the importance of safety. As near as I can figure regarding the structural strength differences between the spindle gouge and the bowl gouge, it comes to what is known as distribution where more of the tool material is diffused away from the point of pressure or cutting edge (sometimes defined as the neutral axis as in construction beams); thus, that tool's ability to withstand greater resistance against what is being cut or gouged. The greater the material distribution (u-shaped bowl gouge)...the stronger the integrity. But what do I know....I'm just a retired university English professor! Best wishes and stay healthy.
Excellent overview. Loved the business end view showing gouge shape up the flute. Where was this 20 years ago when I first started turning LOL. Very helpful. Thanks
Many thanks Kent for this terrific resource and for the effort you put into explaining all the different aspects of woodturning in bite-sized chunks. I am just picking up wood turning again after a gap of a number of years and your channel has been a great help in getting back into the craft - with much more accomplishment and confidence than before. Your paper models of the strength of a bowl gouge versus that of a spindle gouge are great examples. I'm a retired civil engineer and I've been fascinated to read some of the over-complicated technical explanations of my fellow engineers. As you say, turning a bowl involves much larger forces trying to bend the gouge than does spindle turning, due to the end grain and distance from the rest. If you are designing something to resist bending, it's depth that does the job - flat things bend more than tall things. Just think of a 6"x2" timber beam supporting a floor in a house, you want the 6" dimension vertical not horizontal. When you are turning a bowl a good distance from the rest, there is a big force trying to bend the gouge - and it's the wings of the bowl gouge that resist the bending and why the flat spindle gouge is dangerous in this situation.
Glad it was helpful! If you want everything spelled out clearly and easy to access, check out my Turning Course www.turnawoodbowl.com/turn Happy Turning!
Awesome video. You've taught me more in 2 min that a half dozen websites and as many other you tube videos. Well ... time to buy a proper bowl gouge as mine is actually a spindle, then back to my home built lathe.
Again, great video. You really explain things well. The toilet paper roll is a great visual aid! I found myself at the woodworking store comparing bowl vs spindle gouges to try to understand the difference, but didn’t come away with any real answers. This answered the question. Re the strength question, consider a torsion box or an I-Beam. Wood on edge is much stronger in a vertical orientation than a flat orientation. The taller the vertical edge, the stronger the support. So I think the taller flute acts the same way to strengthen the gouge. Just my initial thoughts. BTW, I plan to go through your whole library, I really enjoy your teaching methods. Thank you…
Once again, a clear precise informative tutorial, as a newbie I’ve learned a lot from your videos. Don’t understand why you don’t have 10x more subscribers. Thankyou
Hi Kent, I have been following your great videos, Thanks, I am a machinist and hobby wood turner. One thing that stands out to me is looking at all the comments no one has commented on seeing you turn with jewelry and clogs,, my shop teachers and college instructors would have quite a lot to say about your attire. You are putting this out there for novices, they will see this as acceptable. hopefully one one gets injured.I hope you can Keep up the great videos with safety in mind.
Good video clarifying what tool is used when. The only correction is the difference between end grain and side grain. End grain allows you to actually see the growth rings of the log, where side grain shows wood grain running parallel to the log and lathe bed. How do we know this? In order to determine flat board cuts of a log (flat sawn, rift sawn, or quarter sawn) you have to look at the end of the piece of wood to see how the grain appears. In turning a spindle, the end grain is held by the headstock and tailstock. Spindle gouges are not used to cut directly head-on into end grain. For a bowl, the end grain will alternate with side grain every 90 degrees as it spins. This is the reason spindle gouges are NEVER used for turning bowls.
I enjoy all your videos, and keep learning from them all the time. Thanks for sharing. I'm a novice wood turner. I've been turning bowls using a spindle gouge without any problems. I guess I've been lucky?
I have watched and continue to watch Kent's excellent videos. Thanks for wonderful explanation of difference between bowl and spindle gouges. Recently I bought a gouge with a label spindle gouge without realizing the difference. I thought it was a bowl gouge and would work fine. After watching your video I know what I bought and how to use it. Thanks. I have one question: Can I use this spindle gouge as a rougher? After watching a number of your videos, I did purchase a Rikon lathe and I applied all that I learnt from your videos. I am getting better slowly. All credit goes to you. Thanks. I always look forward every morning to watch your video to learn new steps.
Thanks VK! A spindle can be used on detail areas like the tenon or some surface designs. Watch this video th-cam.com/video/IhsFEhPgzZg/w-d-xo.html Happy Turning!
This was very helpful. Clarified a lot. My only thing is your terminology of referring to spindle turning as "end grain". That was a bit confusing. When I hear "end grain", I always think of turning the end grain, as in when you hollow out a bowl. I think you meant, "end to end", or something like that. But it made it confusing. But in all, I learned things that I had not known about the differences between those two gouges. Thanks!
Kent, if you think of the gouge as a cantilever beam with a load applied at the tip, the stiffness of the gouge varies massively as the height of the flute increases. For a rectangular cantilever beam, the stiffness varies as the cube of the height, ie double the height, 8 times the stiffness. Although gouges do not have a rectangular cross- section, because the bowl gauge has more height than a spindle gouge, it will be significantly stiffer. My guess for the 2 gouges in your video is that the bowl gauge will be 5 or 6 times stiffer than the spindle gauge.
The science behind what you are talking about at minute ~13 is buckling of a ductile material because the depth of the steel shaft is shallower in the spindle gouge than in the bowl gouge. You are correct about the wings adding strength - they essentially add depth to the shaft of the tool.
An engineer who"s recently acquired a wood lathe. You are correct on the strength of the shapes, but from my limited experience of wood turning so far, I believe the strength for the job is not the problem. The problem is much more related to the increased clearance angle ground onto the tool which makes it much more prone to 'dig in'. This combined with the narrow approach angle of the grain during rotation combines to create a situation highly sensitive to 'digging in'. Try walking a bowl blank around by hand while using a hand plane to shave the perimeter and you'll quickly see my point. Once the sharp pointed chisel digs in, it is a self generating disaster that will jerk the chisel from your grip and devastation takes place in an instant. It's this catastrophic failure that will break things. And the tool breaking possibly saves your hands getting dragged in too ? I would suggest that the best tool for each job is the one capable of getting where you want with the least front clearance ?
Hi Mr Kent, as I put the hundred 👍 I congratulate you for your shiny explanation about the difference between spindle and bowl gouges, although I'm a French speaker, I really well understood your explantions between the shape and the use of each tools. (Excuse my bad English).
Cool, thanks! Merci beaucoup pour tes mots gentils. Bien sûr, je ne connais aucun français, mais Google m'aide. LOL. Bonne chance à vous et bonne chance!
The major difference from an engineering viewpoint is that there is significantly more metal in a bowl gouge (not discussing the significant difference in the actual shape of the business end). More metal = more mass, therefore significantly greater strength, and significantly lesser vibration (chatter) because in bowl turning a much longer length extends beyond the tool rest. Also, as someone else said, the high flutes in the ellipsoid shape also add significant strength to an already more massive bar. Hope that helps.
Yes the one gouge has a higher has more metal. However it's the moment of inertia that deep fithe dictate how much deformation there will be and with high sides. Yeah. The spindle gouge has much higher sides and It's moment of inertia of that section is greater and deflection is less.
The sides of the bowl gouge add rigidity. It works on the same principle of why an I beam is stronger than a simple steel flat on it side. Also the flutes on the bowl gouge are rounder than the spindles so does not catch the grain like a spindle does. I like the straw analogy for grain. I think it represents why tools catch very clearly. Just replace the toilet paper roll with a handful of straws. Great video and good information
Great video. Very informative! I do think it would be useful to show a spindle roughing gouge at the same time to differentiate between the detail gouge and the roughing gouge. A roughing gouge can easily be mistaken for a bowl gouge until taught the difference
Hi Kent, in response to your request for explanation regarding tje flexibility vs rigidity of the spindle gauge vs bowl gauge I can say, as an engineer, that the amount of deformation of the tool greatly depends on the geometry. The stiffness of a 'beam' (read tool) is determined by the material and the so-called area moment of inertia. Generally; the thicker the tool, the less deformation at the tip. For a round cross section this number has the diameter to the power 4. So, 2x diameter gives 16x less deformation. I hope this helps, if not please let me know and I will send you a more in depth explanation with some pictures.
I am nothing at any about physics, but the wings remind me a lot about rampant arches in architecture. They “discharge” the energy caused by the structure height and weight right into the land. Their introduction made Gothic buildings possible, thus reaching the maximum possible heights before the introduction of modern materials. I will ask about the gauges to some friends there teaches physics.
To offer a comparison of the two gouges Kent, think of having two pieces of steel. One on its flat resting on an edge and the other on its side. The one on its flat representing the spindle gouge will be so much easier to bend/break than the one resting on its edge, which represents the bowl gouge. Hopefully, this example is clear enough to understand.
Dear Kent, the difference in strength between a spindle gouge and a bowl gouge is like the difference between a piece of flat bar versus a length of channel {or U-shaped} steel. The flat has very little resistance to longitudinal deflection whereas the channel maintains its straightness with sustainable loads, up to its deformation force. Cheers.
HI Kent; I understand that, there are different uses, for each category of wood turning tools. However, I'd like an opinion please. What is the main size of bowl gouges, if you had only two? Same question for the Spindle gouge, not including, a large roughing gouge? Same question for the Scew Chisel, and the Scraper.
Good question. I could survive with one 5/8" bowl gouge for roughing and one 1/2" bowl gouge for finer work, one 3/8" spindle gouge. No roughing gouge for bowl turning, watch this th-cam.com/video/IhsFEhPgzZg/w-d-xo.html All the best to you and Happy Turning!
Great suggestion! I cover this thoroughly in my Tool Sharpening eCourse. Check it out turnawoodbowl.com/tool-sharpening-ecourse-for-wood-bowl-turning/ Thanks!
If i remember my structural analysis correctly? The strength of a beam is the base (horizontal dimension) times the height (vertical dimension) squared - Base x Height squared - the height might be cubed instead of squared. This obviously means the height is "much" stronger that the width
Stiffness of a beam is indeed proportional to width times height cubed. This is the reason wide flange beams ("I" beams) are shaped thusly - they are the stiffest shape for the volume (mass) of material.
I thank you so much for your videos. I am catching up, and so excited to learn to turn on my lathe. how do I create an account for your website to log in? I can not find link to create account.
You're very welcome Glen. You only need an account on my website if you are enrolled in one of my courses. And if that is the case, use the same email you used when purchasing the course as your user name. All the best to you and Happy Turning!
Na teoria estou aprendendo bem , e a explicações suas são muito boas ; só que eu ainda não tenho torno, aqui são muito caros, que marca recomendaria abraço.
Pegue o que você pode pagar. Estou supondo que as marcas disponíveis para você podem ser diferentes daquelas na América. Tudo de bom para você e Happy (futuro) Turning!
Seems like the spindle gouge is a go to for end grain hollowing on small projects like scoops. I'm a newbie but this is what I'm seeing on TH-cam. Why am I not seeing them use bowl gouge?
Yes, spindle for end to end turnings, bowl gouge only for side-grain turnings. See this video too th-cam.com/video/IhsFEhPgzZg/w-d-xo.html Happy Turning!
Hi........ explanation of strength of bowl gauge: As you know , a 2x10 is much stronger standing on edge ( like in a beam situation) than it would be laying flat between two points. It’s something called a SECTION MODULUS .. In the formula that “height” (10”) involves being CUBED , But the thickness is only to the first power. So in that example it would be: 1000 VS. 8 , a function of which way the beam oriented. The formula works out to be : Base x height squared, Divided by 6 . That’s it. Easier than using the gauge correctly....! Bobby
So many different grinds. Is the only real difference between a bowl gouge and a spindle gouge, the shape of the flutes? Half rounds for spindle work and elliptical shaped for bowl workings? Or is there also definite differences in the bevel angles between the two? Even watching wood turners do their thing, it is hard to tell what tool they are using. With the different grinds used for both types, they can look similar in video or pictures. I could swear I just watched a TH-camr do an entire piece of wood spun end to end(like a bowl), and he used a roughing spindle gouge. I am probably incorrect though, and it was a bowl gouge without swept back wings? Hard to tell sometimes.
Another good video. A picky point: It is odd to hear you use the term "end grain" here for spindle turning, where I am used to the term "long grain". I understand your usage--you are coming at the end grain from the side--but it is confusing; would it not be better to limit the term "end grain" to descriptions of actual end grain turning, where the expression has an accurate and intuitive meaning (coming at the end grain from the end)?
Great video for actually explaining the difference. I've asked other turners and the said spindle gouge is for spindles, bowl gouge is for bowls. Thats why i turn boxes.
Yeah, there are reasons. Thank you, Jeff. Happy Turning!
Jeepers, now I know why my first bowl was almost a horror film - I was using a spindle gouge 😱😵
I've since invested in a good bowl gouge and a Tormek to keep it nice and sharp. Love turning bowls and also making a series of wood dinner plates.
This channel is awesome! Thanks a million for this!!
God bless!
I've watched a ton of woodturning content on TH-cam and this video is far and away one of the best I've ever seen. Your video production, including audio, is perfect, you get right to the point, and you taught me something important about turning safety that I never knew. Thanks!
Wow, thank you, Jack! All the best to you and Happy Turning! Kent
Excellent , truly life saving. One would never know how valuable this Liston is unless he violates these rules
And see for himself the danger that follows. Thanks
Yes, be safe. All the best to you and Happy Turning!
What an explanation! Opened up a beginners eyes. Thank you!
Glad it was helpful! Thank you!
I've been turning for a few years now and that is the clearest explanation I've heard on this particular issue. Thankyou Kent.
Glad to help, Ian! All the best to you and Happy Turning!
Again, a very helpful and brilliant video! Despite 20 years of woodturning, I learn so much with your videos. thx
Great to hear! If we're not learning, we're dying. ;) All the best to you and Happy Turning! Kent
Thank you from another beginner....so clearly and precisely explained👍😀
Glad it was helpful Dougie! Happy Turning!
As a beginer of traditional turning tools, I am so glad I watched your vedios before I use Bowl Gouge and Spindle Gouge.
Glad you like them! Thanks!
Thank you for a very clear explanation of the differences between the spindle and bowl gouge. I particularly liked your folded paper demonstration. The challenge that you set for an explanation got me returning to classical mechanics notes and I couldn't resist the challenge. There are two things going on with the shape of the gouge. The first is the cross-section of the gouge and the second is the distance of the centroid of the cross-section from the axis of rotation. The resistance to bending of a beam is given by the area moment of inertia of the cross-section, which is determined by the geometry, and the square of the distance of the centroid from the axis. For the sections of the bowl and spindle gouge you illustrate on your website I have calculated the area moment of inertia (there is a very handy extension to sketchup that does this for you). Assuming the same external diameter for both gouges the ratio of resistance to bending is 3.5. The distance of the centroid to the axis of rotation modifies this a bit and reduces the ratio to 2.8. Nevertheless, this means that for the particular geometry the bowl gouge is about three time more resistant to bending than the spindle gouge of the same external diameter.
The other thing that this reminded me of was the deflection of the gouge as a function of the distance between toolrest and bowl. This goes as the inverse of the area moment of inertia (three times better for the bowl gouge described above) and as the cube of the distance between toolrest and bowl, reminding us to keep it as short as possible.
Awesome! Thanks for that detailed explanation! So the bowl gouge is about three times strong than a spindle. Great to know and I love how you laid it all out. Thank you!
@@TurnAWoodBowl I have the Carter and Son 1/2 " Double Ended that has a Spindle grind on one end and a bowl on the other, what surprised me is that the flute on the spindle grind is only about 1/16" wider than the bowl grind. The bowl is ground deeper by about double what the spindle is. Amazing that difference has such an effect on the strength. From the Carter and Son description 1/2" bowl gouge end sports a "V" shaped flute, ground to 50º
You are a spindle youtuber, you put details on yours videos, I like that a lot, to me it’s the best way to learn. Thank fo sharing!
You are welcome! Thanks!
Thank You Kent. Just beginning. Been woodworking for many years. Off and on for 61 years, never tried turning except it was always there in the back of my mind. I now have a midi lathe and decided to give it a go. Your videos are great way for me to learn and keep me out of trouble. Once again much gratitude Kent.
Fantastic! Thank you. That's what happened to me-it was always in the back of my mind. Then I dove in and here we are. ;) Happy Turning!
What a great video!!! Two or three weeks ago, I answered some questions you had asked us for feedback on, concerning particular subjects we’d like to see that would be helpful to your audience. I think my only request was a thorough explanation of how to distinguish a bowl gouge from a spindle gouge. I’m sure this video wasn’t made solely because of my feedback, but the timing sure is perfect.
I knew to never use a spindle gouge “except for spindle work”, but I didn’t know you could use it for a little detail work if the grain orientation was a certain way. My main concern was being unsafe by using the wrong tool accidentally. Not only did you explain how to tell the two apart easily, you explained the whole process where all the facts I knew tied together and made perfect sense!!!
Thank you sooooo much for the content and delivery of this video! It has made me much more confident using these two tools and knowing that I’m using them safely and correctly!
Kristi,
Thanks for writing!
I read every comment and I do listen to requests for future videos. ;) I also try to go back to the time when I was learning these skills and recall the confusion about certain topics and explain them in a way that best makes sense.
Thank you for your kind words and Happy Turning,
Kent
I have watched every one of Kent's videos and he is a PRO. Excellent communicator with well thought out presentations.
Thank you kindly, Al! Much appreciated! All the best to you and Happy Turning!
I gave you a thumbs for two reasons. You actually taught me something I didn't know about the spindle gouge, AND, we have the same color crocs, and I turn in mine too. All. The. Time.
LOL I love it! I catch grief from some about those not being protective enough. After spending too long picking shavings out of socks, Crocs are the best for cleaning and not dragging "wood bowl glitter," as my wife calls it, into the house. Thanks for writing. Happy Turning.
Many thanks. Returning to wood turning after a 40+ year gap. Good to brush up on the basics and not make a stupid error. A very well presented aide memoire for me.
Great! Enough vacation for you , back to the lathe. ;) Happy Turning!
Great job on teaching different characteristics of each. Not explained this way in any other video. Your videos are the most informative of all out there. You break it down so us newbie’s can understand it. Thanks Kent
There are a lot of great turners on TH-cam, but yours is hands down the best educational channel out there. I've learned more from you than all the others combined. Thank you.
Wow, thank you kindly! All the best to you and Happy Turning!
@@TurnAWoodBowl is there any chance of you doing a video that shows how to use carbide tools as thoroughly as you show how to use traditional tools ?
hi . very well done, good to see you take the time to reply to all the comments .all the best, lignator jack.from england, uk.
Thanks 👍 Yes, I really don't like when comments go unanswered. Thanks for your appreciation and acknowledgment!
First class video. Reminded me of several things that I "knew" but forgot. Just doing some spindle turning after a long period of doing pretty much only bowls. Thank you.
Thank you for writing and sharing, Tom! Enjoy and Happy Turning!
Thanks so much for such a clear simple explanation and definition of the differences between the bowl gouge and the spindle gouge. And for the heads up about the dangers of misuse of the spindle gouge...
My pleasure, Charlie. Happy Turning!
Great video. Explanation was what conversations with other turners lacked. Very informative.
You videos are my turners encyclopedia.
Thank you, Larry! All the best to you and Happy Turning!
Thanks for taking the time to explain the differences, I'm just starting out and you probably just saved me from having a really bad day!
Great to hear! Happy Turning!
Excellent explanation. Concise and straightforward.
Thank you, Terry! Happy Turning!
I have watched many Woodturning Videos and this one would be in the top few of the Best.
Clear and precise, diagramatically perfect, easy and a pleasure to follow. I really look forward in viewing the whole series.
Thumbs up - what a great job, i am sure you have mentored many viewers in becoming good woodturners.
Thank You.
Thank you kindly! Happy Turning!
Great, clear advice thank you. Safety is paramount if you are to live another day.
Absolutely! Thank you, Kevin! Happy Turning!
I learned a lot. I now understand this far better than I used to. Good video.
Fantastic Greg! Thank you for writing and sharing! Happy Turning!
Great job with your videos! I'm a structural engineer and got on here for the first time (of any TH-cam presenter) to comment on your strength question. Didn't realize it was a 3 month old video. Others have already answered it: bending strength in a beam is proportional to the base and the cube of the height of the beam. Finally found that "Bell" to click. My TV doesn't have it. Maybe now I will be more current? Thanks for doing what you do.
Awesome, thank you! I appreciate your contribution and knowledge. Happy Turning!
Once again, a very clear and concise tutorial that provides excellent information regarding the art of the craft and the importance of safety. As near as I can figure regarding the structural strength differences between the spindle gouge and the bowl gouge, it comes to what is known as distribution where more of the tool material is diffused away from the point of pressure or cutting edge (sometimes defined as the neutral axis as in construction beams); thus, that tool's ability to withstand greater resistance against what is being cut or gouged. The greater the material distribution (u-shaped bowl gouge)...the stronger the integrity. But what do I know....I'm just a retired university English professor! Best wishes and stay healthy.
Thank you! Sounds like a clear explanation to me.
So clear and helpful. You are a master! Thanks so much.
Thanks for watching! You are so kind. All the best to you and Happy Turning!
Excellent overview. Loved the business end view showing gouge shape up the flute. Where was this 20 years ago when I first started turning LOL. Very helpful. Thanks
Glad you enjoyed it! LOL, that's why I decided to make these. LOL
It was on VHS somewhere, and not on the internet. ;-)
This is a nice explanation that deserves admiration and appreciation, Thank you very much.
Thank you, Ali! All the best to you and Happy Turning!
Many thanks Kent for this terrific resource and for the effort you put into explaining all the different aspects of woodturning in bite-sized chunks. I am just picking up wood turning again after a gap of a number of years and your channel has been a great help in getting back into the craft - with much more accomplishment and confidence than before.
Your paper models of the strength of a bowl gouge versus that of a spindle gouge are great examples. I'm a retired civil engineer and I've been fascinated to read some of the over-complicated technical explanations of my fellow engineers. As you say, turning a bowl involves much larger forces trying to bend the gouge than does spindle turning, due to the end grain and distance from the rest. If you are designing something to resist bending, it's depth that does the job - flat things bend more than tall things. Just think of a 6"x2" timber beam supporting a floor in a house, you want the 6" dimension vertical not horizontal.
When you are turning a bowl a good distance from the rest, there is a big force trying to bend the gouge - and it's the wings of the bowl gouge that resist the bending and why the flat spindle gouge is dangerous in this situation.
John, Thank you for writing and sharing! Well explained! All the best to you and Happy Turning!
I too am a retired Civil/Structural engineer and John's explanation is short, simple, and correct!
So hard for a beginner to find info on which tool to use when. You are a very good educator. Thank you.
Glad it was helpful! If you want everything spelled out clearly and easy to access, check out my Turning Course www.turnawoodbowl.com/turn Happy Turning!
Thanks, this is the best explanation I have heard as to the difference.
Awesome! Thank you!
Awesome video. You've taught me more in 2 min that a half dozen websites and as many other you tube videos. Well ... time to buy a proper bowl gouge as mine is actually a spindle, then back to my home built lathe.
Glad it was helpful! Thank you for the kind words! Happy Turning!
Again, great video. You really explain things well. The toilet paper roll is a great visual aid! I found myself at the woodworking store comparing bowl vs spindle gouges to try to understand the difference, but didn’t come away with any real answers. This answered the question. Re the strength question, consider a torsion box or an I-Beam. Wood on edge is much stronger in a vertical orientation than a flat orientation. The taller the vertical edge, the stronger the support. So I think the taller flute acts the same way to strengthen the gouge. Just my initial thoughts. BTW, I plan to go through your whole library, I really enjoy your teaching methods. Thank you…
Super clear explanation Kent! Thanks. Now my only issue is figuring out roughing gouges for spindles and bowls.
Glad to help. Watch this for your answer th-cam.com/video/IhsFEhPgzZg/w-d-xo.html Happy Turning!
Thanks for that, very clear and will prevent me making a dangerous mistake. Regards Karl
Excellent! Happy Turning
Anther helpful morning tutorial. Your use of the toilet roll model is just brilliant teaching!
LOL! Thank you very much! I use whatever pops into my mind. LOL
Helpful, now that we all can get our hands on a roll of toilet paper again! :-0
Best explanation I have ever seen. Thank you.
Thank you, Alejandro! ;)
Very good video with the emphasis on safety.
Glad you liked it!
Thank you for your videos, you probably saved my life or at least a trip to the ER!
Once again, a clear precise informative tutorial, as a newbie I’ve learned a lot from your videos. Don’t understand why you don’t have 10x more subscribers. Thankyou
I appreciate that!
My channel is fairly new. The subscribers are adding up thanks to you!
Thank you and Happy Turning!!!
Thank you. now I need a bowl gouge.
Sounds like a plan! Happy Turning!
Hi Kent, I have been following your great videos, Thanks, I am a machinist and hobby wood turner. One thing that stands out to me is looking at all the comments no one has commented on seeing you turn with jewelry and clogs,, my shop teachers and college instructors would have quite a lot to say about your attire. You are putting this out there for novices, they will see this as acceptable. hopefully one one gets injured.I hope you can Keep up the great videos with safety in mind.
I understand. Thanks for sharing.
Thank you for your lesson. Your Austrian student.
You are welcome! Thank you in Austria!!! ;)
Good video clarifying what tool is used when. The only correction is the difference between end grain and side grain. End grain allows you to actually see the growth rings of the log, where side grain shows wood grain running parallel to the log and lathe bed. How do we know this? In order to determine flat board cuts of a log (flat sawn, rift sawn, or quarter sawn) you have to look at the end of the piece of wood to see how the grain appears. In turning a spindle, the end grain is held by the headstock and tailstock. Spindle gouges are not used to cut directly head-on into end grain. For a bowl, the end grain will alternate with side grain every 90 degrees as it spins. This is the reason spindle gouges are NEVER used for turning bowls.
Thank you for writing and sharing Gregg. Well said. Happy Turning!
I enjoy all your videos, and keep learning from them all the time. Thanks for sharing. I'm a novice wood turner. I've been turning bowls using a spindle gouge without any problems. I guess I've been lucky?
Thanks for this education! Good to know someone else wears crocs in the shop.
I have watched and continue to watch Kent's excellent videos. Thanks for wonderful explanation of difference between bowl and spindle gouges. Recently I bought a gouge with a label spindle gouge without realizing the difference. I thought it was a bowl gouge and would work fine. After watching your video I know what I bought and how to use it. Thanks. I have one question: Can I use this spindle gouge as a rougher? After watching a number of your videos, I did purchase a Rikon lathe and I applied all that I learnt from your videos. I am getting better slowly. All credit goes to you. Thanks. I always look forward every morning to watch your video to learn new steps.
Thanks VK! A spindle can be used on detail areas like the tenon or some surface designs. Watch this video th-cam.com/video/IhsFEhPgzZg/w-d-xo.html Happy Turning!
This was very helpful. Clarified a lot. My only thing is your terminology of referring to spindle turning as "end grain".
That was a bit confusing. When I hear "end grain", I always think of turning the end grain, as in when you hollow out a bowl. I think you meant, "end to end", or something like that. But it made it confusing. But in all, I learned things that I had not known about the differences between those two gouges. Thanks!
Thanks. I can see that. Check out this article turnawoodbowl.com/bowl-turning-grain-orientation-wood-blank-direction/
You are a good teacher!!!
Thank you! 😃 Happy Turning!
Kent, if you think of the gouge as a cantilever beam with a load applied at the tip, the stiffness of the gouge varies massively as the height of the flute increases. For a rectangular cantilever beam, the stiffness varies as the cube of the height, ie double the height, 8 times the stiffness. Although gouges do not have a rectangular cross- section, because the bowl gauge has more height than a spindle gouge, it will be significantly stiffer. My guess for the 2 gouges in your video is that the bowl gauge will be 5 or 6 times stiffer than the spindle gauge.
Excellent description. Thank you for writing and sharing! Happy Turning! Kent
Don't think I can add more to this explanation. Great! The material in the wings is adding stiffness👍
Very good and helpful information. Thank you.
Glad it was helpful, Ron!
The science behind what you are talking about at minute ~13 is buckling of a ductile material because the depth of the steel shaft is shallower in the spindle gouge than in the bowl gouge. You are correct about the wings adding strength - they essentially add depth to the shaft of the tool.
Excellent, Gwenda! Thank you for sharing! Happy Turning!
Awesome tutorial thanks! Moving my tool rest in much closer now !
Great to hear! Happy Turning!
Brilliant thank you. I've been getting it wrong. 👍😁
Glad to help, Andrew. All the best to you and Happy Turning!
Thank you for the great explanation.
Hey man, this was really helpful to a beginner like me. Thanks!
Good visuals as well as explanations. Thanks!
Thanks, Lou! Happy Turning!
An engineer who"s recently acquired a wood lathe. You are correct on the strength of the shapes, but from my limited experience of wood turning so far, I believe the strength for the job is not the problem. The problem is much more related to the increased clearance angle ground onto the tool which makes it much more prone to 'dig in'. This combined with the narrow approach angle of the grain during rotation combines to create a situation highly sensitive to 'digging in'. Try walking a bowl blank around by hand while using a hand plane to shave the perimeter and you'll quickly see my point. Once the sharp pointed chisel digs in, it is a self generating disaster that will jerk the chisel from your grip and devastation takes place in an instant. It's this catastrophic failure that will break things. And the tool breaking possibly saves your hands getting dragged in too ? I would suggest that the best tool for each job is the one capable of getting where you want with the least front clearance ?
Thank you for writing and sharing Funkiwi! Good info. Happy Turning!
How can tell if someone is an engineer?
Don't worry, they'll tell you.
Hi Mr Kent, as I put the hundred 👍 I congratulate you for your shiny explanation about the difference between spindle and bowl gouges, although I'm a French speaker, I really well understood your explantions between the shape and the use of each tools. (Excuse my bad English).
Cool, thanks!
Merci beaucoup pour tes mots gentils. Bien sûr, je ne connais aucun français, mais Google m'aide. LOL. Bonne chance à vous et bonne chance!
Thank you for the excellent training.
My pleasure. Thank you and Happy Turning!
I'm glad I found this.
The major difference from an engineering viewpoint is that there is significantly more metal in a bowl gouge (not discussing the significant difference in the actual shape of the business end). More metal = more mass, therefore significantly greater strength, and significantly lesser vibration (chatter) because in bowl turning a much longer length extends beyond the tool rest. Also, as someone else said, the high flutes in the ellipsoid shape also add significant strength to an already more massive bar. Hope that helps.
Eddie, Thank you for writing and sharing! More mass for the win! ;)
All the best to you and Happy Turning!
Yes the one gouge has a higher has more metal. However it's the moment of inertia that deep fithe dictate how much deformation there will be and with high sides. Yeah. The spindle gouge has much higher sides and It's moment of inertia of that section is greater and deflection is less.
Very interesting and cleared up my questions
A great explanation, I’m just starting and this makes a lot of sense to me, new subscriber, thanks
Awesome, thank you!
The sides of the bowl gouge add rigidity. It works on the same principle of why an I beam is stronger than a simple steel flat on it side. Also the flutes on the bowl gouge are rounder than the spindles so does not catch the grain like a spindle does. I like the straw analogy for grain. I think it represents why tools catch very clearly. Just replace the toilet paper roll with a handful of straws. Great video and good information
Excellent, thanks for sharing! All the best to you and Happy Turning!
Great video. Very informative!
I do think it would be useful to show a spindle roughing gouge at the same time to differentiate between the detail gouge and the roughing gouge.
A roughing gouge can easily be mistaken for a bowl gouge until taught the difference
Hi Kent, in response to your request for explanation regarding tje flexibility vs rigidity of the spindle gauge vs bowl gauge I can say, as an engineer, that the amount of deformation of the tool greatly depends on the geometry. The stiffness of a 'beam' (read tool) is determined by the material and the so-called area moment of inertia. Generally; the thicker the tool, the less deformation at the tip. For a round cross section this number has the diameter to the power 4. So, 2x diameter gives 16x less deformation. I hope this helps, if not please let me know and I will send you a more in depth explanation with some pictures.
Thank you. Great information and it helps explain the strength of the bowl gouge. Thanks and Happy Turning!
Great explanation! Do more like this, pls!!!
Ok, I'll see what I can do. All the best to you and Happy Turning!
Excellent video, Kent!
Glad you enjoyed it, thanks!
great instruction! But how can I get that great shop smock you are wearing?
Stu, here's a link to a very similar one amzn.to/3XQFhkQ Happy Turning!
I am nothing at any about physics, but the wings remind me a lot about rampant arches in architecture. They “discharge” the energy caused by the structure height and weight right into the land.
Their introduction made Gothic buildings possible, thus reaching the maximum possible heights before the introduction of modern materials.
I will ask about the gauges to some friends there teaches physics.
Valentina, interesting perspective. Thank you for writing and sharing! Happy Turning!
Thank you excellent vid
Glad you enjoyed it! Happy Turning!
To offer a comparison of the two gouges Kent, think of having two pieces of steel. One on its flat resting on an edge and the other on its side. The one on its flat representing the spindle gouge will be so much easier to bend/break than the one resting on its edge, which represents the bowl gouge. Hopefully, this example is clear enough to understand.
Makes perfect sense. Thank you for writing and sharing! All the best to you and Happy Turning!
Thank you. Super useful.
Glad it was helpful!
Dear Kent, the difference in strength between a spindle gouge and a bowl gouge is like the difference between a piece of flat bar versus a length of channel {or U-shaped} steel. The flat has very little resistance to longitudinal deflection whereas the channel maintains its straightness with sustainable loads, up to its deformation force. Cheers.
Indeed, that makes sense. Thanks and Happy Turning!
Very interesting ,thank you.
Glad you enjoyed it
So helpful , thank you
Glad it was helpful!
I just got a Ricon 70-1420 VSR lathe. What size 4 jaw chuck would yo recomend?
Stu, it all depends on the size of you turnings. Check this out turnawoodbowl.com/bowl-chuck-for-wood-lathe-how-to-use/
HI Kent; I understand that, there are different uses, for each category of wood turning tools. However, I'd like an opinion please. What is the main size of bowl gouges, if you had only two? Same question for the Spindle gouge, not including, a large roughing gouge? Same question for the Scew Chisel, and the Scraper.
Good question. I could survive with one 5/8" bowl gouge for roughing and one 1/2" bowl gouge for finer work, one 3/8" spindle gouge. No roughing gouge for bowl turning, watch this th-cam.com/video/IhsFEhPgzZg/w-d-xo.html All the best to you and Happy Turning!
Excellent explanation. Thanks
You are welcome!
Thank you for this easily understood explanation of the difference! Could you show us the difference in sharpening a bowl gouge vs a spindle gouge?
Great suggestion!
I cover this thoroughly in my Tool Sharpening eCourse. Check it out turnawoodbowl.com/tool-sharpening-ecourse-for-wood-bowl-turning/
Thanks!
Good helpful information
Glad it was helpful, Andy! Happy Turning!
Thank you very much for the explanation.
You are welcome!
If i remember my structural analysis correctly? The strength of a beam is the base (horizontal dimension) times the height (vertical dimension) squared - Base x Height squared - the height might be cubed instead of squared. This obviously means the height is "much" stronger that the width
Kerry, Awesome! Thank you! I knew you were out there and able to help. Thanks!!!
Stiffness of a beam is indeed proportional to width times height cubed. This is the reason wide flange beams ("I" beams) are shaped thusly - they are the stiffest shape for the volume (mass) of material.
@@EPgeek Awesome! Thanks for that great explanation! Much appreciated!
In an I beam only the top and bottom are structural the web is merely there to keep them apart.
Thanks!
No problem! Happy Turning!
I thank you so much for your videos. I am catching up, and so excited to learn to turn on my lathe. how do I create an account for your website to log in? I can not find link to create account.
You're very welcome Glen. You only need an account on my website if you are enrolled in one of my courses. And if that is the case, use the same email you used when purchasing the course as your user name. All the best to you and Happy Turning!
Na teoria estou aprendendo bem , e a explicações suas são muito boas ; só que eu ainda não tenho torno, aqui são muito caros, que marca recomendaria abraço.
Pegue o que você pode pagar. Estou supondo que as marcas disponíveis para você podem ser diferentes daquelas na América. Tudo de bom para você e Happy (futuro) Turning!
Seems like the spindle gouge is a go to for end grain hollowing on small projects like scoops. I'm a newbie but this is what I'm seeing on TH-cam. Why am I not seeing them use bowl gouge?
Yes, spindle for end to end turnings, bowl gouge only for side-grain turnings. See this video too th-cam.com/video/IhsFEhPgzZg/w-d-xo.html
Happy Turning!
Thanks so much! I’ve wanted to understand the difference and now I finally do!😊👍
Great!
Great explanation. Thanks.
Glad it was helpful!
Great advice it was a great help to me know I now why I was getting catch's
Regards
Steve UK London
Improving at wood bowl turning includes many important "ahh" moments!
All the best to you.
Happy Turning!!!
I knew there was a catch somewhere! ;-)
Hi........
explanation of strength of bowl gauge:
As you know , a 2x10 is much stronger standing on edge ( like in a beam situation) than it would be laying flat between two points.
It’s something called a
SECTION MODULUS ..
In the formula that “height” (10”) involves being CUBED , But the thickness is only to the first power.
So in that example it would be:
1000 VS. 8 , a function of which way the beam oriented.
The formula works out to be :
Base x height squared,
Divided by 6 .
That’s it.
Easier than using the gauge correctly....!
Bobby
Excellent! Thank you for sharing! Happy Turning!
So many different grinds. Is the only real difference between a bowl gouge and a spindle gouge, the shape of the flutes? Half rounds for spindle work and elliptical shaped for bowl workings? Or is there also definite differences in the bevel angles between the two?
Even watching wood turners do their thing, it is hard to tell what tool they are using. With the different grinds used for both types, they can look similar in video or pictures.
I could swear I just watched a TH-camr do an entire piece of wood spun end to end(like a bowl), and he used a roughing spindle gouge. I am probably incorrect though, and it was a bowl gouge without swept back wings? Hard to tell sometimes.
Mark, Check this out th-cam.com/video/o2dS0FWfLT4/w-d-xo.html Happy Turning! Kent
nice. i sorta view a bowl gouge's side wings similar to an I-beam, which has a lot of strength.
I like it! I agree with you, especially after some other viewers have offered similar thoughts. Thanks and Happy Turning!
Another good video. A picky point: It is odd to hear you use the term "end grain" here for spindle turning, where I am used to the term "long grain". I understand your usage--you are coming at the end grain from the side--but it is confusing; would it not be better to limit the term "end grain" to descriptions of actual end grain turning, where the expression has an accurate and intuitive meaning (coming at the end grain from the end)?
Thank you for writing and sharing! Sounds like a plan. Thanks Happy Turning!
thank you so much kent
You're welcome!