The US Air Force vs The Chinese Air Force & Navy (with some aircraft errors)
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
- Hey Valued Viewers. We ran this battle but I made some errors which produced some interesting results. I will re-do it next week with errors fixed. I spent 20 hours on this mission and it's video so I didn't want to waste it, hence uploading to GR2 channel. Enjoy!
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I think you forgot to model the J-16s on the Chinese side.
The PL-15 is *massively* overmodeled IMO
There isn't the slightest chance the Chinese would perform as well as this in real life. Not a chance in hell. Like the celluloid dog chasing the asbestos cat in hell chance. Simply not believable.
Is that from your experience in the Chinese air force?
a real life simulation would be the US trying to breach layers upon layers of chinese anti-access-area-denial using a fraction of its airforce at the absolute limits of their combat range due to the fact that any airfield or carrier near china would be pelted with chinese cruise and ballistic missiles.
@@92HazelMocha No. Some of the mods used over perform compared to reality, some of the AAMs in particular. The core game mods are much more accurately modelled.
Hey Matrix, is there any footage of your time in the Jaguar?
@@SmithandWesson22A Not taken by me, no. GoPros and the like weren't even thought of, it as all 8mm cine film. The cameras were too bulky to take in a fighter cockpit unless specifically authorised, and that was generally for 2 seat air defenders filming Soviet intruders.
13:39 _"Change my mind."_
Isn't the PL-15 the best missile in this fight?
You guys should do your best to replicate the skywarden. Its just a crop duster with guns
You absolutely buggered this one. Must be redone with all the errors cap made when setting it up
I figured they would run out of fuel quickly I'm a bit disappointed that there was no sidewinders. I think that would have changed the Dynamic of the fight
Since you already have this war game setup you should just alter it a little bit by giving the F-22 and F-35 fuel tanks and add Sidewinders and run it again
I feel like the distances are just too close for any of this to make sense.
Cap: “why is it so close?….how are the Chinese doing so well?”
Also Cap: “Yea I decided to throw tactics out of the window, not give give the dog fighters AIM-9X in their load out, and deliberately sent stealth fighters to their death”
In a previous battle they even had to correct the mods because the Chinese aircraft had been buffed well beyond realistic performance.
@@cynthiaherbst3909 I remember that. They were pulling some absurd amount of G loading if I’m not mistaken. And I get that GR is going for entrainment value as well and not just pure war gaming along with the physical limitations of the server as well. But man, the AIM-9X thing was big oops. Classic mistake that history has taught us time and time again, that dogfighting isn’t going anywhere. I really hope they do it again with a little more realism and apply lessons learned.
Why do the f16s have targeting pods lol...
Hahahaha, I thought your mouse cursor was a knat and tried to shoo it and then squash it. I'm an idiot lol. Good show btw
I look forward to the rematch!
Could you add a despawn area such that if a plane is out of missiles and returns to this area it despawns? To address the issue of sacrificing planes to clear up server space.
Hey cap, what about rerunning this with US Navy/Marines aviation too since the Chinese navy aviation is included? Great video!
Or…
Do every NATO combat aircraft except the US ones against China, and against Russia. Both those would be really interesting scenarios, with the wider range of equipment.
@@waynesworldofsci-techOoo yeah, NATO minus the US could make a cool series of videos
@@92HazelMocha
Yes, wider selection of jets and missiles. And I love the Gripen! I also love the Meteor. Europe has some great indigenous technology, plus imported US gear, and even some old Soviet stuff possibly.
The PLA Navy Air Force is not included in this video.
Twas what I was gonna ask.
If you included the f35cs and fa18s the navy has plus harriers I feel like China just gets steam rolled.
The airforce wouldn't attack alone in the air that's for certain. Lol
plus the US Marines have 87 Harrier II, 138 F/A 18 Hornets, 127 F-35 Lightning II and the US Navy has 14 F-16, 512 F/A 18 Super Hornets, 118 F-35C as well as all the National guard planes?
Something to think about most of the so called experts said Dog Fights are a thing of the past??
Whatabout a very very teeny weenie tactical battle? 100th scale with all assets? Either way it's a good vidya.
I've noticed that for the most part during these massive battles, the AI for US planes tends to get extremely stupid. Could be worth looking into an AWS server with enough horsepower to run these matches comfortably?
I agree, it appears many US jet-based AI just goes dumb, but I think it may be related to the AIM-120 being ineffective, where they fire off everything, hit virtually nothing, dodge as poor as any other AI, and if they survive they just run to the middle most of the time and don't know how to focus on a target to fly effectively in BFM as they run out of fuel hah. DCS needs to support Cap more; perhaps a petition would be worth it.
As someone who uses AWS daily, I can not figure out why they don’t simply spin up a dozen servers with load balancers for a zero lag experience.
Is it a US company, or perhaps Canadian? Could be (hilariously) built into the code. I am from the US btw.
@@jamison884 Why should the AI dodge better than any other AI? Seems like it would just give one side an advantage and make the whole video boring if you would manipulate AI.
@@cassius_eu5970 You misunderstood my reply I guess. I'm saying the AI should act the same way for all factions. The original post insinuated they appear to go dumb when flying US jets, and I agreed, but stated it may be related to the specific missiles being fired as well. For example, the AIM-120 underperforming against enemy AI who survive a greater percentage, which in turn makes it appear as if the US AI is underperrforming, as they are dying more often against missiles which aren't AIM-120s. The way to test this would be running the same number of jets, US vs. whatever model, have them both use the same AIM-120D1/D3 missiles on both factions, and see if there's a clear pattern. If you want to make it clear, you can play around with 4th generation jets of approximately the same capability (F-15 vs. Su-33 perhaps). If you want to see if it's really messed up, then F-22 vs. Mig-29 or something, and then see what the PK is for the AIM-120 fired by the jets involved. SIngle player allows fast-forward, so it wouldn't take that long.
Is there a way to model it as if they were able to refuel mid-air on the way into battle?
how about Taiwan bombing the three rivers dam?
Why is it that every other countries missiles always work better than the Americans???
I seen the china movie about a wall and some monsters….. it’s the swan group you have to watch for 😂
1:07 all you need to know, is one is way better than the other. 😂
Sorry Cap, but I refuse to believe the AIM120's are that bad. The P/K simply can't be that bad.
Simba never fails to earn his title 'The People's Champ'
Such fun to watch! Thanks Cap!!
Thank God we just don't charge our superior planes into battle like a 1776 battle
Is there a location to download any of the mission files to use? Didn't see listed on website etc. Thank you in advance
Do Israel vs Iran / Israel vs Syria next!!
Iran should be more interesting because they have Tomcats and Phantoms...
Iran gets wrecked and Syria gets wrecked there you go… “go ahead and smash that thumbs up button”😂
@@youngstunna1594Beat me to it, not even close to a fair fight lol
I imagined the lights in his whole neighborhood dimming when he started up the game. Probably had to wear a headset to drown out the roar of the computer fans. It appeared that the southernmost American base had no SAM cover, but all of the Chinese bases did. I was wondering why no SAMs were firing at the Chinese jets as they wrecked the place.
Looking forward to the revisit, love getting my "ace combat" fix from Grim Reapers
It's always logistics that wins the war.
I love this one so mad I didn't get to see the f35 n 22 really ge tin the fight 😢
range of missiles was the make or break of this simulation. the Chinese had the advantage regarding orderly shots before things became chaotic.
The PK of the American missiles should be checked.
All Fox 3 missiles in DCS have terrible P/K's. The real question is the the American AI tends to shoot more often than redfor AI.
For the f-15s aim 9s go inboard on 2and 8 for loading space reasons
Best commentator!! Fun and interesting fight to see
Amazingly. The tyranny of distance won the battle for China, having 60% of the US 5th gen fleet just Not being able to participate in battle is crippling.
Lol… yeah i call total bullshit !
Good job. On behalf of the KC135 fleet at TinkerAFB - aerial refuel stands ready to fix this travesty.😂
id love to see both f15c and ex because if they get into a dogfight the f15c should still be competitive
The Chinese the do very hell today 😱
Always appreciate the effort you guys put in, but this one was a bit donkey-tier. I look forward to the rematch with some tweaks and changes.
dang, comments are mad
why can't anyone entertain the possibility of any rivalry or peer powers?
the worst mindset delusions in any confrontation is blind beliefs of absolutes, failure to plan for the possibility, risks any act of defense or offense.
That was a different video for sure! We need better missiles! I don't know if you have noticed CAP but I have noticed that all American missiles do not work nearly as well as Chinese missiles. The kill ratio is absolutely is horrible for the American Missile. Even in U.S. Russian Battles I noticed the American missile is not as good as the R77 or any other missile. It seems to me that the American missiles are the worst missiles in the game. I would love to get your point of view on that,,,,
WOPR: "The only winning move is not to play."
Maybe a NATO vs BRICS scenario? A greater diversity of aircraft is my thinking. thanks for the content Cap!
Brazil, India and Russia can't even beat the UK aircraft, let's not even mention South Africa lol, only China is worthwhile in the comparison, unless ground warfare where it's a bit more even
Well IRL i would agree but since it´s DCS it would still be interesting. I mean consider the share quantity of aircraft between Russia, China and India.
Since we have seen it be close between China and US in GR Scenarios (because the pilot skill is set to highest setting between both factions) It is my opinion that it would atleast make a good video and entertaining scenario.
F22s would go in first and destroy most of the opposition then F15s and F16s follow in for stragglers. USAF would tottally dominate
Does the server need a graphics card or just a multi-core beefy processor with oodles of RAM?
Few things I don’t understand…
1) Why did you include the Chinese naval air force but not the US naval Air Force?
2) With zero accurate data for the number of pl-15s or d3’s in service why did you equip the entire Chinese air force with pl-15s but most the us air force with aim 120d1’s.
3) Why is the US AI so incredibly stupid??? The US AI coding is clearly not the same as Russia’s/China. Throughout the fight US missiles where expended at twice the rate of china’s, leaving them completely defenseless. They make no attempt to dodge a missiles and there own missiles go dumb if a Chinese pilot even wiggles his wings.
4)I won’t even bring up failing to get the US’s most lethal aircraft into the fight.
“whaaahhhh whaaahhh the aim120 isnt doing as good as i want and why do american planes not have any fuel” this isnt a realistic scenario but fuel is modeled realistically and so are missiles admittedly the f16s lacking sidewinders was a mistake but adding fuel tanks to the american fifth gens would have diminished their stealth this is all cope over a fictional unrealistic battle
honestly the f16s lacking aim9s wasnt that big of a deal both sides fored the exact same numbers of short range missiles in the end
What a mess
The Chinese win BUT, the Americans used everyone’s preferred pronoun.
Why is it always chinese every time you play them They always have a leg up. There's no way god's green earth throughout beaten americans radar or missile strike capabilities
30secs... New record
Your videos are WAY to long.
If Simba is suggesting PL-15 is too OP the I'd listen to em!
Agreed. DCS world way over buffs Dussian amd Chinese A2A missiles. They are literally in game given US/NATO capable AESA radars even though they don't have that tech on their actual fighters
@@cynthiaherbst3909 well put. Lol I honestly believe that any and all information/open source data about U.S. Military Tech is under played, purposefully nerfed, and Russian/Chinese Tech is laughably over buffed!
@@cynthiaherbst3909 in reality it's not even close, U.S. is decades ahead even when it comes to Hypersonic Tech lmao despite what ppl think! X-15, X-43, X-51, and HTV-2 just few old examples! Everyone forgets about what's still classified just as well!
I'm not sure how the F22s and 35s ran out of fuel before firing given their combat range should be greater than 450/650 miles respectively but maybe the humans should prioritize flying them instead then to make sure they have more of an impact
It's an AI problem, when they see an enemy they go full after burner and stay in burner until the fight is over, which means they run themselves out of fuel very quickly. ED is supposedly working on the next big AI improvement but we're stuck with this until they do.
AI is dumb and turns on afterburner as soon as they are aware of bandits, even if they are hundreds of miles away and would end up with no fuel to fight once they get to the battle space.
We're not actually stuck.....you could have them fly to waypoint 1 with no reaction in the mission editor and then have them engage when they get to that preset point so they retain fuel to fight with
We aren't using the D3 yet because the Klingon's haven't sold them to us yet...
@27:10 ish
That cloud of text,, all missiles flying,, wow! no wonder its lagging a bit.
Didn't even add the US Marines, which has a huge air force of it's own.
How does China defeat the US in an all out air war? The US Appoints Cap as USAF chief of staff.
Half the F-16s never fired any missiles at all.
OK CAP. I WANT A REDO WITHOUT MISTAKES PLEASE.
How about doing mission with warbirds (I LOVE WARBARDS) I would be very interesting. No jamming, no missiles, Just air combat.
Next time launch f22 first and that would make a huge difference.. but your still doing a great job and I definitely enjoy your videos
I would love to know what cap's server spec is.
The problem is with pk of amraams, especially in the terminal phase where they just keep losing track, it’s quite obvious somehow yet to be fixed.
No Sidewinder????
theres def. way more then 225 J-11, they've been building different variants of them since the mid 2000s
Have you considered doing a video of the mission from the top gun maverick movie. One run using F18s and a one using F35s. Was it even realistic.
Obviously, right now, I don't think the PLA air force could win a straight up fight against the USAF irl, but it's a sim game guys...like come on. The butthurt/excuses comments don't really help because then Cap goes and nerfs anything red team in order to please the audience and we end up with unfair matches.
Would love to see this as a tac battle was still awesome to watch as always
Shame the Aamraams don't work properly.
The f16's are dragging targeting pods for some reason? and something needs to change with the gr amram....maybe change the engagement range of the ai because they don't track...put 2 120d's on and the rest 120c's....its a far better missle for everything except the first shot or two...which never hit from 100 miles anyway...
Seems like the Chinese could fool an AIM-120D by rocking their wings slightly.
That was a F16 shaking off a Chinese missile
The F-35 has a combat radius of 760nm according to LockMart so I'm not really sure why they should be running out of fuel so fast especially considering the F-16s seem to last longer than the 35s even if they have a shorter combat radius and carry weapons externally (more drag).
It's the AI, when the AI see an enemy they go full afterburner until they run out of fuel or they don't see any more enemies. The F35 has better sensors so they would go into full burner earlier than the F16's. Also the F16's had three tanks so that's probably part of it.
Would love to see it again with more ACM friendly loadouts and a solution to get the F35s more involved, otherwise super entertaining stuff 👌
Just out of curiousity, did that take into account National Guard units? There are a lot of current aircraft (up to and including B2s) in ANG hands - and they do get used in combat...
Really good question, ANG aircraft are used almost interchangeably and should be included.
supposedly the D3 has a 110 mile range Which is significantly better than the D1.
Cap: “ *ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?!* “
Me: “yup”
Seeing as there are many mistakes in the setting up of this scenario, will we see a rematch?
Redo this please. Fix the F35's
Definitely should have given the F-16s AIM-9X. So apparently these PL-10s are the difference maker.
Cap, you know I love you and GR, but this doesn't bode well for the current state of DCS.
I honestly don't care about this specific DCS result, because despite the setup errors you noted, the USAF should have still absolutely dominated this battle. I know they would in the real-world, and that's all that truly matters. However...
1. The AIM-120D1/D3 is quite simply... broken (in my opinion). When both sides had 60 losses, the US had fired just over 600 missiles for a PK of 10%. The only time I'd expect to see a result like that would be a highly organized BVR fight with all human jets who know how to dodge and then RTB'd after firing and evading all missiles. However, even with that said, I've also watched thousands of DCS dogfights and I don't think I've seen any missile perform this poorly.
Now, I know some will say..."but the enemy had 60 losses just like the US about mid-way through." The difference is, they only fired 300 missiles to get those 60 kills. That's approaching a more normal PK rate at least, but even that is likely too low for how terrible the AI actually defeats missiles (or it could just be #2 below).
2. DCS "AI" is fundamentally broken right now and don't appear to be coded for any engagement of greater than one or two squadrons per side for any given battle, at best. As soon as you make it a large engagement, the DCS AI appears to be the worst it has ever been since I've been watcing the videos. They burn into battle, fire most of their missiles with 0 coordination between flights or even what would be considered their respective wingman, then they either get into closer range and just fly in patterns with no discernable strategy or intelligence until a short-range or long-range missile eventually hits them. In other battles where they are supposed to be sensible, they largely fire all their missiles and then run out of fuel due to poor fuel management code in DCS, and do that standard high-alpha min-power and land at any airfield behavior.
It sucks typing all of this crap. DCS is quite simply letting you and your business down. I hope they apply some fixed for you soon Cap. : (
"The USAF would absolutely dominate" shows the quality of your research. Even the pentagon understands that this in no way would be a one-sided fight, especially given in the real world it would take place in or around the Chinese IADS which would give them a massive advantage.
P/K of Fox 3 missiles in DCS is known to be very low compared to the real thing, however this applies to all of them, not just the AMRAAM. Dogfights are not BVR and the missiles perform very differently over tens of miles vs tens of feet. Anyone flying in DCS could attest to this.
The AI is also not great especially in large engagements. Again however this applies to both sides.
I see you've heavily edited your comment, but your initial assertion that somehow an adversary with comparable technology and numbers would somehow be defeated easily is on the whole not in line with reality. DCS is meant to be a simulator, not a video game. Cap's "business" is making DCS videos, which imo are generally very good and I frankly don't see how DCS has "let him down".
Not sure if it's the PK rate of the AIM is too low, or the PL PK rate is way too high. No way it's that much better. Agree with everything you say - at the end of the day, its the game/simulator, not real world.
@@92HazelMocha I'm not going to go back and forth here, so you're free to reply and have the last word here, I truly don't mind.
There is no reason to indicate Chinese fligtht operations and pilot training is close to the quality or matches the experience of USAF/NATO training. This is the primary difference, in addition to Chinese home-built jet engnes being well below on quality and sheer power output, up until perhaps very recently via test flights for the J-20 engine upgrades. Then there's the more advanced stealth and greater number of stealth assets vs. the J-20. When Cap said F-22's were rushing in like morons, all I'm doing is agreeing. If you watch both BVR and BFM videos of various US and Chinese/Russian DCS pilots going one v. one, wth both DCS pilots being high quality, more often than not, the US/NATO aircraft wins. In BVR one vs. one, the popular DCS pilot channels often feature modded missiles as well, I assume from the mod-maker of the respective jet, as I believe Cap keeps GR mods in-house (I know CH's are public).
Of course the US military (all branches) aren't going to underestimate their enemy, especially via the public sphere. Everyone in the military is taught that early on. If you were able to ask any officer their true thoughts and get a true response, I'm certain there's at best, a minority (under 5%) who genuiinely think the Chinese air assets have a fighting chance, jet vs. jet. If you notice, this is also the USAF vs. Chinese AF & Navy; no US Navy air assets, but this included China's small wing of J-15s.
I can point to the inexperience of certain Chinese military assets by looking at their carrier flight operations, with virtually no capability at night or in bad weather/sea states. A recent example stated (per Japanese intelligence, keeping a public record of Chinese naval operations and movement) the Chinese naval air wing managed 300 total sorties for the particular deployments (20 launches/recoveries per day on average) per hour in a 24-hour period. In addition, they just recently conducted their first training launches off the carrer beyond the range of a China airbase. All prior training had not qualifed as blue-water excersices since they always relied on a land-based runway if they had an issue getting back on deck.
Meanwhile, the USN has recently set their record on the Gerald R. Ford with 170 sorties completed in 8.5 hours of flight deck operations. That gives me zero confidence the Chinese Navy could pull off legitimate flight operations at the required tempo.
In addition, the most recent series of war games in the Pacific show the US military would experience most of their air losses (90%) based on long-range missile strikes to aircraft sitting on the ground, with the initial conflict resulting in long-range missile battles between the two countries, rather than USN ships sailing directly to Taiwan and within Chinese missile ranges, as it would be far too risky, and would only be attempted as long range ordinance were exhausted and they had no other alternatives. The war games didn't even mention the Chinese aircraft carriers due to their current insignificance, and that's even when a majority of war games simulated an average of two CSG's lost. This is why the USN is developing their missile technology and capabilities across all branches emphasizing range, stealth, speed, or a combination of the three.
Concerning DCS, the AIM-120D has never performed this poorly against a peer competitor, at least per my memory of watching every video and tracking the development of the numerous DCS assets developed by GR & CH. I know the difference between BFR and BFM, and AI is terrible at both. But, when the forces are overwhelmingly AI vs. AI and you're throwing in the AIM-120D3 with capabilities very close to the PL-15, it just doesn't make sense to require that number of missiles per kill and I haven't seen any other missile with that low of a PK in DCS specifically compared to a missile of relatively similar capacbility.
@@CaptainSeamus Yes sir. Based on my research, I'm extremely satisfied with the US military, NATO, and our Pacific allies. DCS is purely entertainment so something like this only discourages me for two reasons: more realistic/believable results are more entertaining to me, and Cap relies on DCS being capable to do his job. I honestly feel DCS is just so far behind his capabilities in setting up scenarios to the point it's the primary factor holding him back.
Except that PL-15 does out rank both AIM-120D1/D3 in terms of range and velocity at least on paper (and therefore in DCS) so having a higher PK on such a large map is nothing to be surprised of. That being said PL-10s were doing stupid amount of killing and not putting sidewinder on F16s definitely screwed USAF over this fight.
PL 15s can fire at longer range under ideal parameters, assuming their open source capabilities are accurate and that fire control systems for locking and targeting are as good as US/NATO AESA radars
Talk about a furball!!! That was complete madness!! And I loved every minute of it👍
Looks like Fat Amy has to be a front line fighter simply because of fuel, but if she starts in the rear, she will survive to fight later! Thanks for trying everyone, great fun and better luck on the next set up! Peace.
Cap, some of those "old" Chinese planes have been modernized with semi-modern radars and fox3's. The JH-7's and J8's for example carry PL-12's.
Edit: if you do run another version of this I would recommend not only trying to include the JH-7's and J8's, but also fixing the J11's. All J11 variants can carry the PL12, and all variants after the A model can carry the PL15 (the A model and earlier only accounts for about 100 of them). It would be funny to see J-7's flying around, but obviously not practical given how large this has already become.
To all the critics, if you want accuracy go hassle the Command Modern Operations peeps.
Please do American Air Force vs Russian Air Force
F-16s with 4 AIM-9s replacing 4 of the AIM-130Ds would be a very effective loadout
and leave them with only 2 aim-120s? that would be worse than giving them 6 amraams
This did show the shortcomings of stealth with a long distance battle: droptanks negate stealth, so what is the use of stealth in this case?
Bruh, its an inaccurate simulation due to 2 things, the AI is stupid and the specs are not accurate.
Do indian carriers vs Chinese carriers
no side kick mod for the 35s ???
Thank you for all your hard work !
The modern F-16 variants can carry up to 10 missiles each as the centre wing pylon can use a triple rack for the amraam
Cap just turn infinite fuel on for the AI planes next time ;)
Geez Cap, you're going to need a bigger boat...err...server.