On the "parasitic lifestyle" we also have to consider that at the time an unmarried woman was expected to live with and be supported by her parents. There was nothing at all unusual about Lizzy and her sister being entirely financially dependent on their father.
True, but in Lizzie's case, she was considered a spinster, since she was close to thirty years old, and her father's known cheapness must have grated on her, knowing that for that era, he was actually a wealthy man. She must have felt angry and rejected. No one fell in love with her, and women were seen as rejects if they hit 21 or 22 and we're still single. Her era was light years away from any idea of high tech. No computers, no TV ... What did she do all day? Wake up, dress for the day - then what? It appears her life was deadly dull! A hot summer, little to nothing to provide possible distractions, simmering hatred for her step- mother, resentment toward her father for bringing this stranger into their small home, maybe all these tensions suddenly erupted into rage. Maybe she couldn't tolerate her life any longer, and simply snapped!
@@nancyayers6355 I believe the recent Dateline special on the murders said that Lizzie was used to wielding an axe (or hatchet) when butchering hogs in the backyard. We think of them as city people, but in fact most in cities and towns of the 19th century had livestock of some kind. The investigator on the show suggested that Lizzie's skill in butchering would have made it more plausible that she could carry out the gruesome attacks. She knew how to kill, and was used to a gory scene. lol omg
A couple things you left out of the time line. Lizzie was originally with Emma in Fairhaven, but returned home due to obligations with the church. Dr. Bowen sent Mrs Borden home due to "summer illness" or food poisoning. Lizzie dismissed Bridgette, after asking if she would like to go to Sargent's Goods for some dress fabric. Mrs Borden the second was actually struck by an instrument between am inch and 1.5 inches which isn't possible for a hatchet. Now Mrs Churchill, the nextdoor neighbor, saw Lizzie shortly after the bodies are found, noted she looked pale and dismayed. One thing never mentioned is the fact that Lizzie is on large doses of morphine due to "hysteria". All information given to police, any information given during testimony she is under the influence. From my experience in the house her personality is that of a diva. She spent far to much time with children and animals to be a psychopath. Bull headed and bossy sure, hate filled enough kill two people? I don't think so. Now if you have made it this far you are wondering "who is this guy," well I happen to be one of the guides for the house and knowing Lizzie is my job.
@@geslinam9703 she was not. Dr Bowen prescribed it for her due to "hysteria" from what I have researched at the house, Lizzie was an active young lady. And like you pointed out, if you're on morphine, you won't be doing much of anything.
King Cr1mz0n yes, morphine was a common drug for women of the time, especially for hysteria - which is where the word hysterectomy came from. Doctors thought that women lost their minds when their uterus detached or something like that.
Hey there! For some reason, I believe that you may have been the guide on one of my 3 trips there. Lol, it's a popular choice when friends and family come visit. I offer Nantucket, I offer Seven Gables, but no, it's Lizzie's place.😄
Being a Borden who was not only born in fall river but worked for the fall river PD, I can say that that the city is still very divided on Lizzie's guilt.
I also a Borden through my paternal grandmother and she was a distant relative. Although, one of my great aunts, who never married was Anna Mae Borden.
Any reasonable and honest person has to admit there's no way to know either way. She certainly _could_ be guilty and she certainly _could_ be innocent. Those are the only certainties regarding her role in the crime.
Sorry to read that. I hope things will change with the passing of time. The Bordens I believe are related to Sir Robert Borden 1853- 1937 Prime Minister of Canada during WWI
You summed it up beautifully: "Lizzie Borden's guilt and her innocence are BOTH improbable for many reasons." Now THAT is why the fascination of that hot day in Fall River will never go away,
My dad died of cancer in March; I was his sole caregiver; I was NUMB for about a week, then it hit me like a ton of bricks. It isn't fair for anyone to judge someone else based on their reaction to death in the family.
Exactly It was odd to be unmarried at the time and she reads autistic when I hear everything but everyone spoke differently back then so I wasn't sure . I have autism in my family and it was just a feeling I got and maybe why she didn't get married because they didn't understand that or have support back then . But they spoke so uniquely back then and perhaps she was just not good with social and they never met husbands. I don't think she did it at all If she wasn't that ..she could have been learning disabled. Her dad wasn't perfect but she didn't seem to want to leave and her dad bought another place for the girls . They just stayed w their dad and step mom ..
I think her age and class worked against her. Even though they were wealthy, they weren't high society. I think there was a lack of suitable men that fit into her class or she into theirs.
That is true. But somebody dying of cancer and somebody getting their brains bashed out by an axe is a bit different. My dad died of cancer too. I was there. I still miss him every day and it’s been 30 years. But that’s a bit different than walking in on your dad’s head hacked up. I think I’d personally be a bit more emotional, maybe? At least at first? 🤷♀️
24:21 I don't see how you reach the conclusion that Lizzie Borden didn't have much to gain by the deaths of her step-mother and father. 1) She gained her independence from a controlling father. 2) She inherited a fortune, even after dividing it with her sister. 3) She rid herself of step-mother Abby, whom she hated. 4) She bought a fine home on "The Hill", the prestigious part of town where she lived an upper-class lifestyle. 5) She opened her home to the bohemian crowd she enjoyed (actors, painters, musicians) for parties that would have been forbidden while living with her father and step-mother. In those days being involved with the theatre/actors was considered scandalous by religious folk. 6) She transformed from a plain, provincial spinster into a grand, fashionable lady of independent means, free at last to pursue her passions: animal welfare, the arts, and perhaps even a romantic relationship with the actress Nance O'Neil.
Yeah if you know all about this case you know that she was very envious of the wealthy people who got to enjoy their wealth while Lizzie’s father was very tight fisted and selective about his spending. It’s apparent by how she lived after collecting her inheritance that she felt stifled and bored living under her father’s rule. She went full party girl after the trial.
The fact that she said "someone came in and killed him!" sealed it for me. She was covering her tracks with her first sentence. Her other behaviors leading up to the murders (including trying to poison her WHOLE FAMILY) were giant red flags.
What makes you think she tried to poison her family? There are reports that her step mother AND her father insisted on them eating spoiled mutton on more than a few occasions.
Yes, if _"someone came in and killed him!"_ were her first words, that's a big red flag. Just like the woman who suffocated her boyfriend in a suitcase, murderers are quick to give alibis where innocent people wouldn't even be thinking of that.
I have really studied this case carefully and if you dig deep enough you will find that Lizzie had a great love and respect for animals. Her father had killed all her homing pigeons not long before his death. This could have triggered her rage but I believe she had help. When she died she left all her money to the care of animals so the killing of a cat in her past was most likely a rumour.
Since I am an overly simplistic person, what points to Lizzie's guilt to me was her hatred towards her step mother, the frustration with her father's parsimony & the dress with the wet paint that was burned. I just can't account as to why Lizzie was so clean after the murders, except for bloody rags soaking in a basin down in the cellar that Lizzie said were menstrual rags. So who knows? Thank you for another very interesting video. Cheers!
The movie with Christina Ricci shows her committing the murders either in her undergarments or flat out naked. Which is definitely a good way to avoid blood stains, even if that’s not what happened I found it interesting
@@majorkade So her SISTER burned the dress, not Lizzie? Hmmm...looked it up, sister testified to this in court. I know the sister hated step mom, too. So it makes sense that sister might have lent Lizzie a helping hand, even in court testimony.
@@longwhitemane I got it off the Dateline special the other night. Another angle might be that if the sister had nothing to do it, she would have gotten Lizzie's share of the inheritance if Lizzie had really done it and been found guilty. Lots of little ways to analyze this. Also, Dateline reported that the sisters had a real "falling out" years later, long after they had moved in together into the swankier home,. The sister left Lizzie and never spoke to her again. lol Really. More to speculate on.
I agree with your conclusion. In addition, I read her father had given some of his property to Abby and her family members. A property had just been given again recently. Witnesses said Lizzie was very upset about it. I see that as additional motive.
Yes, this is related in the excellent book, A Private Disgrace, by Victoria Lincoln. The girls were pretty much at war with the parents over the first property transfer; then they found out their father was planning to transfer a much-loved family property to Abby and her family. This may be what pushed her over the edge.
The hated stepmother was her intended victim. I think she felt she had to kill her father, there was no way he wouldn't think she had done it. Killing both of them turned out to be an effective strategy for her, though it was very risky considering Bridget was around. People love to imagine scenarios where she was innocent, but the fact there was so much time between the murders proves that she alone did it. She was IN THE HOUSE, people, an innocent Lizzie would have at least heard Abby being murdered.
I think we need to remember that we have very little information about her childhood and her behaviors throughout her life. What we do know is that her mother passed when she was a toddler. That would definitely impact her and would be a loss. What was their relationship like? We don't know. What we do know is that Lizzie was not close with her stepmother whom she had since she was around 4. If the stepmother was loving toward Lizzie and her sister, then why wasn't that affection/love given back? I think that sheds some light on her compassion/empathy/relationships. I would also dig deeper into what type of parent her father was. Was he cold, distant (yes, I know he bought her gifts), formal, involved? How many nanny's did Lizzie have as a young child which would have resulted in more losses? All of those experiences contribute to her possibly developing a personality disorder such as Borderline. Also, it shouldn't be overlooked that people in the home felt nauseous in the days prior to the murders. Was she attempting to poison them and that didn't work out? Lizzie is also trying to buy lethal chemicals (could be used a a weapon) in the days preceding the murders and the pharmacist wouldn't sell it to her (if he trusted her and believed her reason for needing it, then why not sell it to her?). Women in her day and age and economic status of course volunteered. It's what they did. So I don't give too much credit to that as showing her compassion for others. Plus, people with Borderline Personality disorder can be compassionate and have some empathy for others in certain situations. They are not psychopaths. However, they can have uncontrollable rage, be manipulative, AND make themselves out to be the victim. Based on lack of evidence, stories, etc. of her childhood, we just don't know enough about her past behaviors to say dysfunctional/violent behaviors didn't exist. They could have, but maybe people explained it away, dismissed it, or didn't know how to handle it so it wasn't discussed. We do know she was accused of shoplifting and killing a cat. So, if she's wealthy, why shoplift? What's that about? If she has so much compassion, why kill an animal? If she's so well liked, who were her longtime friends? Did she have any? And what did they say about her? We have to remember the culture of the upper class in the 1800's and also take all of that into consideration. Overall, what are the chances of someone walking into the house, murdering Mrs. Borden, waiting around for Mr. Borden, and then killing him. It was overkill for both people, so it's likely the murderer had a personal relationship with them and was angry/enraged with them. Who was that? Why were there no other suspects? I think it's likely that she did commit the murders.
the little one meeting ('hello there , I'm your new mama') or whatever.... the new wife. Did this person show love only with stipulation.... and somehow probable that the 4 yr old was sensitive to the limits of acceptance. It's a long time to hold a grudge --- and those who see yet do nothing, well, he too had to be punished. No one mentioned seeing a stranger who had blood spatter on his clothing --- did they? had to be an 'inter-familial'" pay-back occurrence.
@@stjudeprayer7. Accounts I’ve read say that stepmother was a shrew who was as controlling with the girls as the father was with her and the girls. No wonder the sisters resented her. It went both ways. They were his blood, but she was his wife and mistress of the household. Abby would not let anybody forget that. What love? It may have been for show in public but not real. I can’t imagine this. It’s so foreign from my own experience. Poor girls.
The cat killing story has no evidence to back it up. I don’t think we can really believe that it’s true. She cared for pigeons that were in the barn - which her father ultimately killed because he didn’t want kids coming around to hunt them.
I used to study and read her case files on my down time. I read the forensic reports, blood splatter reports, the police statement reports, court transcripts etc. I think we can all make a biased opinion one way or the other... But shoddy police work will keep this one cold. The M.O. of this brutal display of savagery in a homicide is 1. Someone who knew the vic well enough to be really pissed... 2. Or a straight up sociopath. As someone with a humble law background I like her for it. She had motive, she had opportunity, and going off the hints of possible childhood trauma loss of mother and potential sexual abuse by father... She could have mustered the rage.
Maybe she ratcheted up the brutality to make her uncle look like the perp. When the poison failed, she couldn't use the Irish maid as a convenient fall guy. In which case, this would speak to her being a sociopath.
Great video Dr. Grande. Few points though: Lizzie was on morphine when she was initially questioned by the police, she wasn't identified by the pharmacist, someone said "that's Ms. Borden" (something along those lines) when she left; there were hundreds of Ms. Borden's in Fall River at the time. Abby Borden was supposed to babysit for her sister the day of the crime, the sister changed plans last minute. There was a policeman's ball the day of the crimes and the police were working with a skeleton crew, and it was also an election year; someone needed to be convicted. There is a surviving letter written by Lizzie in prison expressing deep anguish related to the loss of her father. In Fall River the way they lived was keeping with their station ( no electricity or indoor bathrooms) there was extreme wealth around (think Hetty Green, Newport, RI). The Borden's were merely comfortable in relation. Yes, I have always thought something highly unusual went on that day. Finally, making the statements fearing for her fathers safety...something was going on that that family didn't want out for public consumption.
Great video as always! One point I remember from a documentary I watched on Lizzie is that she was reputed to be deeply resentful of her father not buying a house up on the hill where the wealthier community lived. She was unable to attend balls and luncheons that the wealthier people had, and she felt entitled to this too, but resentful that this wasn’t her life. She resented Andrew not buying a house on the hill because he could afford it. There was no running water in their house. Her step mothers sister got into financial woes and nearly lost her house, and Andrew bought her house for her, causing Lizzie and Emma to protest. He was known to be very frugal, yet he opened his wallet generously this time. This for me is an important point... Lizzie was supposed to be very angry about this. Also, this documentary says Lizzie did in fact have a history of shop lifting; she would steal from a local store, and they simply took a note of what was stolen and Andrew would reimburse them. There apparently was a a history of criminality in her shoplifting. In one of the documentaries, an older lady who knew Lizzie in her later years also spoke up and spoke of her kind personality. So quite a conflicting elements. Of course, it is hard to know as this was so long ago, and the collection of evidence is not nearly up to modern day standards, but I agree with you Dr Grande, it does seem likely she was guilty. There was motive - she hated Abby, she resented the favouring of Abbys sister by her father, and she wanted a finer lifestyle, so perhaps this was the motive for killing Andrew.... Interesting assessment as always, great learning to be had! Thank you for this video Dr Grande. Hope you are safe for COVID-19!
It seems that there would have been some blood on her if she were guilty. I cried like a baby at my friend St Mary of Griner's funeral, but I didn't see her own daughter she'd a tear. I am sure her daughter loved St. Mary, but people react differently. I have been at stoic reactions at some funerals. I suppose one could be extremely cold, in shock, or possess "an English reserve."
When I was growing up my Dad bought an encyclopedia type series called Crimes and Punishment and I there was this story complete with graphic photos. I’ve been hooked ever since and I was 6 years old! I love your series!
Years ago I helped publish a book that described why they feel the “secret” half brother did this crime because he was seen as an outsider to the family
Hey, very interesting videos, thank you, I always enjoy them. Lizzie Borden was my grandfather's Sunday school teacher! He swore by her innocence, saying that he couldn't possibly believe she committed the crime.
Sometimes it's the people you least suspect....I still think she did it. She got a lot of money when they died, bought a grand home, got to do whatever she wanted to.....
Narcissists hide in churches. My mother was a case in point. She maintained a facade of being nice in public, but was a monster behind closed doors. Narcissists need attention from people like they need air. They'll involve themselves in charitable activities that make people think that they're nice, but they're utterly self-serving. They especially love positions of authority over vulnerable people.
@@caroliner2029 I have some of those in my own family...so I know exactly what you mean. My mother and dad were wonderful people...but other people in my family aren't.
There was a theory that the girls had been molested by their dad and the step mother new about it. If it was true the maid probably knew too. It does seem strange that the daughters were never allowed to go out into society, have friends, date and get married. The father controlled everything.
Yes! The historians who have studied the case believe this. One weird detail I remember hearing was that Lizzy gave her father her school pin or broach. At the time it was something that girls gave to their boyfriends so it would have been considered very weird and creepy to give it to your dad.
I am just throwing this out as a bit of a guess... but with their mother gone, and this new interloper stepmother they didn't like or get along with, might even have despised, Lizzy mostly, would it be possible that it was given as a token of affection, & since they maybe wanted to stick it to their new "mother" ("DON'T YOU DARE call her my mother!" (Lol from the 2018 movie clip I saw, that was given what looks like a horror treatment, a more malevolent background story of intrigue to go with the grissly murder) Sticking it was also meant as a pun about the "pin" btw. Ok I've made my point ;) teehee
How odd this video popping up when just yesterday I was having a conversation about this. I'm reading Parallel Lives, a book from the Fall River Historical Society. It's an extremely intensive look at the time period, the city and its people. Journals, letters, official documents and records (merchants and the like) are used to try and get the best perspective of actual events. One of the first things you mentioned, the house, isn't what it was assumed to be. It had central heating (radiators are shown in pictures) they were connected to city water, and had a water closet, not just an "outhouse" type system. Not being connected to gas isn't nearly as backward as it's portrayed to be. That would have been very expensive to do, a lot of people didn't trust it, many even wealthier folks didn't use it and many of the street lights in town still were lit at dusk, and extinguished at daybreak. There is zero evidence of the "shoplifting legend" Despite extensive detailed records of merchants for years, and every transaction and person(s) involved. Lizzie was one of the founding members and one of the strongest supporters of their local "Humane Society, ASPCA" and did in fact leave them a sizeable donation in her will. The largest of her will, iirc. One item that I did find odd, was that "friends" had remarked on how Andrew Borden didn't seem to like,let, or approve of his daughters socializing. Things that make you go hmmm.
I also have heard the theory that Andrew had repeatedly molested Lizzie. Maybe Abby knew and so Lizzie had rage toward her, as well as Andrew. This could also explain why Andrew would buy Lizzie expensive gifts, despite normally being frugal.
@@cynthiahardsog657 how do you know? I don't know very much about this case. The brutality of it made me wonder if she had been abused by one or both of them.
I was scanning the comments waiting for someone to mention this; this was my thought. I think Lizzie was attractive, why would she not be married? Maybe the old man, didn't want a son-in-law in on any money. And quite convenient for the father to have a "sex partner" with single girls in the home and a wife (didn't Grande say she was around 200lbs?). Unfortunately, these types of things happened back then. And if their was a bastard son, all the more reason to not have a mistress. If Lizzie was sexually abused/raped...I would say, yeah, their could be rage. She would have been a prisoner in her own home.
Abuse will make a person remain calm in scary situations. They just shut down. They also tell people what they think the person wants to hear. I really like this vid! Thank you, I'm a new subscriber today!!!
I’ve always felt that the evidence from this crime had been hidden under floor boards someplace in the house. I wonder if anyone has lifted every board from top to bottom. Wouldn’t that be something.
Dr. Grande, I like your take on the trauma angle. Not just because of her mother's death, but also because her father's not providing a dowry so the girls could marry was likely the cause of much resentment from them, and evidence of selfishness and lack of concern for them by their father. Being spinsters dependent on a father would be a much less ( potentially) rewarding lifestyle than having one's own husband, children, and household. It was a major plot point of the novels of that time. Henry James' Washington Square is particularly relevant, as it also features a father who could afford to provide a dowry, but did not due to various psychological factors. For a woman of that era, to be denied a dowry and hence marriage, was a hostile act on the part of a parent. Plus there is his unscrupulous business practices. It is also quite telling that they had only one servant. Even relatively poor households at that time had at least one servant. So the girls were likely household drudges.
@@adalineproulx9773 I'm curious, what makes you say this? I wonder if a sheltered Victorian woman could even conceptualize of herself as gay in 1892. From my (admittedly small) familiarity with this case it occurred before social trends to expand women's roles and rights, but maybe Lizzie was a cutting edge trendsetter. Women at this time did not have many opportunities to experiment sexually, unless they were of lower class (and more likely to become opportunistic victims). Of course, human nature probably hasn't changed much, so some with higher recklessness would have experimented, often to dire consequences; for instance August Strindberg's play, Miss Julie, 1888, where the heroine commits suicide after the butler seduces her and she realizes his cruel, ruthless, and exploitive nature would make her life with him a Hell. Of course, people did have romantic and sexual experiences then, but the stakes were so much higher. Forced marriage, disgrace, or suicide are sanctions that probably dampened wholesale freedom. A woman's summer of sexual awakening, and subsequent compromises, Is the subject of Edith Wharton's 1917 novel, Summer. The role of mother, wife, and head of household probably was superior to that of unmarried household drudge, as we see when Charlotte Lucas chooses to marry the awful Mr. Collins in Austen's Pride and Prejudice (1813). But I'm not a historian, so I'm only speculating.
John Morse, the uncle, was also suspect with his sudden and unusual visit, beyond perfect alibi, arguement with Andrew over money, and return to the house. When he returned, police were everywhere and people milling around but he didn't ask what was wrong? He went around back and ate pears!
You didn't mention her sister stayed by her side during the trial, but after she was acquitted, I'm not sure how long after, her sister moved away and reportedly never had contact with her again. I've always wondered if she slipped up and let her sister know she was guilty and she just couldn't accept it.
They lived together for a long while. Emma didn't approve of Lizzie's relationship with and constant parties for Nance O'Neil, who was a lesbian. That is the reason that is mostly given for Emma's separation from Lizzie. To be honest, I don't believe Lizzie was guilty by herself. I believe the murders were planned and that Emma, Uncle John, and Bridgett all knew about it. I also believe that the murders happened either the night before or much earlier the morning of, which would explain the time to clean up the mess.
I've read two alternate interpretations of this story, both of which exonerate Lizzie Borden, though I have forgotten the authors and titles. I just looked up the wikipedia article as a reference. The article states that the girls' maternal uncle was staying in the house at the time to discuss "business" with Andrew Borden. One fairly recent alternate interpretation accuses this uncle of the murder, on financial grounds. The other, a book I read many years ago, details the stress in the house from the debilitating heat, the determination by at least one of the parents to finish the rapidly deteriorating leg of lamb (appearing at every meal, including breakfast) before buying anything else, and the insistence by Mrs. Borden over several days that the maid wash the windows. The maid did not wash the windows until the day of the murders. This book (in contrast to the wikipedia article) states the Bridget Sullivan confessed, not to lying about Lizzie's testimony, but to the murders themselves. The reason given for Lizzie's changing account of where she was, was embarrassment. She reportedly was in the basement washing out her menstrual rags. In context of the mores of the time, most women in her situation would have shaded the truth, too.
I read about the menstrual blood also. But it is also where the uncle could have washed off. He had the strength, anger over finances and an excuse of laying down. How could she have killed he father in a corset? Think they were all in on it.
No man would have bludgeoned an elderly couple that way. That's not a man's nature. It was entirely personal. The murderer dumped their emotional hatred entirely. That is the trait of a woman.
A few months before the murder Andrew Borden actually beheaded Lizzie's pet pigeons with an axe in a fit of temper because he claimed the birds were a nuisance. That detail always made me sympathetic toward Lizzie, guilty or not.
@Jane Marsee Yes that is true. However for someone who was not married and had no serious prospects for marriage. Lizzie Borden could have projected her love and affection onto her birds as a substitute for not having a man to love her. It would not have been easy in the era in which she lived to be a "spinster" as she would have been considered weird or pitied by others. It would not justify her actions if she murdered her father for killing her pets, but whatever psychological condition she may have had, she may have killed her father for killing the pets and somehow rationalized it in her mind. Not sure about the stepmother.
As soon as Lizzie was found innocent, she purchased "Maplecroft" a house on "The HIll" where upper society lived. I've read a lot of books on Lizzie, but I think the one written by Victoria Lincoln was the most decisive. Victoria was of the upper society, born and grew up in Falls River, she knew Lizzie by sight (her house was 1 1/2 blocks away), her parents generation were Lizzie's peers. She asked her mother once why Lizzie was not liked, her mother replied tha Lizzie was "unkind" to her parents. She was very descriptive of the mores of that society. Although the upper crust pretended to be supportive of Lizzy, she was cut from their society when she was released. Her shoplifting was not just that one time at the Tilden-Thurber gallery. She was a well-known shoplifter. The clerks at the store were just instructed to write down what she stole and a bill was sent to Andrew. Note that Lizzie's allowance was quite liberal, she could have easily paid for these items. So I believe she was thrill-seeking and impulsive. She was also an animal lover, she left a rather large bequest to the local humane society. She had pet pigeons in the barn, her father had killed them all a short time before because they were attracting boys to the barn. Pretty sure she had to be very angry about that. But nothing was ever communicated verbally in the Borden household, even Bridgette said they never raised their voices while she was there. The Borden's called her Maggie, because it was the name of the last maid. Strange. When the house got broken into the year before nothing was taken except Abby's things. They weren't expensive items, things like tram tickets, costume jewelry. They always locked the doors, even their room doors (which is kind of telling). Lizzy told the police that she believed the thief used a 10 penny nail to break into her parents room. Her father soon asked the police to stop the investigation, but from then on would place the key to his room on the mantel in front of Lizzy, from Bridgette's testimony. It's really a great read, and I've read them all.
The 'shoplifting' has no basis in fact. The truth was that neither Lizzie or Emma were ever accepted members of the upper class in Fall River. They weren't deliberately ostracized, they just weren't in that social circle that those on The Hill were.You've heard of "the 6 families" (or similar concept)? The leading families of a city? Borden was one of them, but a different branch of the family was really rich. Durfee is also one. The pigeon story is unclear. No real indication they were Lizzie's, most people had them at the time. If Andrew killed them all, it was most likely because they were ill and dying. It's one of those stories that grow out of a tragedy, meaning and intent distorted in order to help explain why, ya know?
i was really wondering about her father and now i know i was right. those poor girls. and her step mother was complicit in this, although in those times, women really couldn't do much. she could have supported the girls more though. let them know how upset she was at his treatment of them. i'm sure it would have helped a lot. (comes from personal experience.)
Excellent assessment! - As a former Homicide Detective, I've "Armchair-ed" the Lizzie Borden case many, many times - and over the past 20 years I've read at least 4 full books on the case - as well as numerous articles - and although there are several sides, theories, etc.. I feel that Lizzie had nothing to do with her Father and Stepmother's grisly murders. No idea who did - (although some interesting potential suspects) - but it wasn't Lizzie...
As far as Lizzie showing no emotion, we need to remember that (despite what we see in movies) people of high social status were taught not to show emotion. That showing emotion, hysterics, sobbing, etc. was for the "lower" classes. Lizzie was keeping a "stiff upper lip" just as she had been taught.
I just learned of this channel. Very interesting presentation, Dr. Grande!---I'd like to share some of my own thoughts about this case. (Some may have been mentioned below.) 1) I've seen the coroner's photos and I think it's possible Mrs. Borden could have fallen to the floor without much sound: Women wore a lot of clothing then and the layers of material provided sound-absorbing padding. I don't recall if there was a rug rather than bare floor boards, something else to absorb sound. Mrs. Borden also was in an kneeling or bowing down position so may not have fallen straight down with all of her weight at once. Also the Borden house looks rather large to me. I think it's possible for something to happen to Mrs. Borden without it being heard above or below in the possibly brief time it took for the murder to happen. 2) I've heard the house has no hallways because Mr. Borden thought them a waste of space so maybe the walls and doors also kept sound from extending far. 3) One documentary I saw mentioned an odd inheritance law concerning widows: if Mrs. Borden died second, her family would have received a big portion of Mr. Borden's estate. There would have been lot less for Lizzie and Emma to inherit. 4) I've heard that shortly before six members of the DeFeo family were killed in the famous Amityville murders in 1975, Mrs. DeFeo had said "something terrible" was going to happen, much like Lizzie had said many years earlier. 5) I once had a really awful roommate I wish I could tell you about. He was sadistic and I consider him capable of doing a lot. It would be interesting to get your thoughts on HIM!
Just an FYI -- the house is now a B&B. I toured it with a friend from Korea while on a road trip, and we could have stayed there if Hee Kyung hadn't decided that the house was too stuffy to be comfortable in the summer. (Since she's Korean, the idea of staying in the Lizzie Borden House didn't have any specific appeal to her.) It's very much worth a detour if you're traveling in the area.
the new england area is surprisingly interesting for those interested in true crime .... h.h holmes was born in new hampshire, i think there's an exhibit in the building he was born / raised in. if you're ever in the area again, definitely check it out
My husband and I stayed the night back in 2010. Had the entire house to ourselves, slept in the room where Abby was killed. If I rolled on my right side and looked down, that was the spot where her body was found. The house is fairly large, has a front, side, and back entrances. I came to realize how noisy it would have been on a busy weekday morning with the windows open due to the heat and the road with horses and carts, etc right out front. The autopsies were done on the dining room table, Lizzie and Alice and I believe the uncle as well as Maggie the maid remained in the house. So I imagine that the only one who might have gotten any rest that night would have been Lizzie, since only she would have known there's no murderer lurking about(?). The night before we stayed some Ghost Story show had filmed there, and the hosts told us of how many 'ghostly occurrences' were staged.
@@lynnmartz8739 On one of my visits (I've been more than once, it's a popular choice when family and friends visit, for some reason), the guid referred to go into the farthest nedroom back (Emma's?)...said she never felt comfortable in there...
Dr. Grande, I read that Andrew Borden had talked about helping Abby's family financially, and that it caused Lizzie to be jealous. I also believe that Lizzie resented having to live with no electricity and no indoor bathroom, even though Andrew Borden could certainly afford those amenities. I so enjoy listening to you, sir! Thanks for your hard work.
I always thought Lizzie, her sister and the maid were in on it together. As far as I’m aware there is little to no evidence of her sisters whereabouts during the murders. I would really like to see the timeline of when she left to visit friends and returned and any absences that may have been witnessed while she was there. I think it is possible that Lizzies sister committed the murder with Lizzie and the maids help. It would explain why they supposedly heard nothing and there was no blood on Lizzie. Was there time for Lizzies sister to return, commit the murders, clean up and change clothes at another location and then return to the friends house? I wonder why they never investigated her sister further?
This was exceptional. I have studied this case and your grasp of the important details is thorough. However, I believe there was some question about whether Lizzie's alleged attempted purchase of prussic acid actually took place.
I can't remember the trial transcript (which is available) but I have to check because if the pharmacy clerk had been put on the stand that would have proved it to be true.
I've always been able to be extremely calm in high stress situations. I had no idea that could be a bad thing! When I was in the military it was part of our training.
Dear Dr. Grande, Peace. Thank you for the video. I found it fascinating, but I have one caveat you failed to mention. There was another axe murderer operating in the same area at the same time. His name was Jose Correa deMello, and all the murders were very similar. It was believed he couldn't have committed the Borden murders because he was out-of-town, but dates and times were not accurately kept then. It's just food for thought.
This depiction is so much better than the movie "Lizzie." I absolutely love criminal profiling, and writing forensic reports.. Dr. Grande I appreciate what you bring to this platform! Thank you
This was so interesting. Also I always thought the morphine played a role in the so called " lack of feeling" etc. She was essentially toddling betwesedation and impairment.
Andrew, Lizze and her sister are distant cousins of mine. Ever since learning that, I've been fascinated by this case. This case has been so mishandled in every way possible. I really appreciate your input on the case, thanks Dr Todd!
Fascinating story! July of 2021, I was on my annual road trip from Illinois to the East Coast I had to stop in Fall River, MA to tour the Lizzy Borden House. During the tour, we were told that most likely Lizzy was guilty. It is speculated that Lizzy did this out of severe desperation. Had her stepmother out lived her father, she and her sister would eventually end up poor and living in despair, as their stepmother didn't care for them very much. As for her mental capacity during the trial, certain professional figures made sure she was well sedated as to not be capable of delivering a competent defense. It is rumored that others were aware of the horrible living conditions and strict conditions Mr. Borden made for his two daughters. There were certain townspeople were actually trying to protect Lizzy, and it worked. Another interesting fact, the ever so popular nursery rhyme "Lizzy Borden took an axe, and gave her mother forty whacks and gave her father forty-one" was just for rhyming affects. The mother suffered 18 whacks and her father suffered 11 whacks. It is plain to see who she disliked the most.
Hi Dr Grande, Excellent choice in subject! It’s so difficult to judge the case with today’s eyes! A women’s life was SO different in those days, societal constraints on women left them next to no options in what their life was going to be. Women usually married by their late teens, and arraigned marriages were common place. It’s very shocking in those days that a woman didn’t marry, let alone two sisters. That was VERY unusual. I believe that ALONE would’ve made her suspect. As for her behavior and emotional state, women were expected to be seen and not heard. She would’ve been raised to be in control of emotional outbursts. Women in the upper class would’ve been schooled in proper etiquette, and wouldn’t have broke away from that as it wasn’t accepted. The very fact the police were shocked she didn’t “faint” was proof of what people expected from women. If this happened today, I believe she would’ve been convicted. The theory I believe is most plausible, if your stand is she was guilty is this. In cases if child abuse, sexual molestation and incestual
Oops, hit send lol. To continue with the abuse theory. Had she been victimized by her father with molestation, she EASILY could’ve harbored deep seated hate for him, and if both sisters were in fact sexually abused by Mr. Borden, they both would’ve had hate for him. Being they lived together, it’s not far fetched to think this was the case, Mrs Borden was aware of the abuse and turned a blind eye. Divorce was NOT common. Certainly not in the upper class. Mrs Borden would’ve been better off TO TURN A BLIND EYE! Remarrying at her advanced age probably wouldn’t happen, certainly not with a bad reputation, which a divorce would’ve given her. If this was the case, both sisters would’ve had deep seated hate for both Mr and Mrs Borden. Society was not as it is today. NO ONE publicly accused parents of sexual abuse! Especially the upper class! This theory of sexual abuse is the most plausible. The sisters could’ve planned for months. Even if it was Lizzie alone that was abused, she could’ve planned for months, even years! I find it highly suspect that Mr. Borden DIDN’T marry the sisters off. That wasn’t a good thing for his reputation. And all reports were that although the Bordens were extremely wealthy they WERE NOT accepted or popular with their peers. He was a miser and didn’t live like the rest of their peers. He WAS considered an oddball! As for the evidence and the murders themselves, I think it’s entirely possible she did it. She had plenty of time to dispose of evidence. Unlike those days, we know a women easily possesses the strength to kill. The manner of both deaths was certainly persons and rage driven. It was overkill! And if she harbored hate for years, a surprise attack with a hatchet would’ve been easy. Mr Borden was napping. Not hard to kill then. Mrs Borden maybe had her back turned, how could she defeat sneak attack with a hatchet! Investigators today have said Lizzie may NOT have been covered in blood, and there’s been experiments done by blood spatter specialists proving this. I believe this theory answers all of the questions surrounding this case. By virtue of the times this wasn’t even thought of let alone brought up! Thanks Dr Grande, this was an excellent choice and your thoughts on Lizzie are very interesting! Best Wishes to you and yours!
Dr put her on morphine immediately after crime discovered as he & neighbor lady described her as distraught. At trial she DID faint. My mom & I took tranquilizers to get us thru my dad's funeral. We may have appeared calm & unemotional. My bestie was on tranquilizers after her young hubby killed. People grumbled she didnt cry at funeral -- what did they know? 50 years later still tending his grave & involved with his family. I was in shock when my husband died in front of me from massive heart attack. I didnt swoon or weep uncontrollably. Shock. I am not quick or eager to judge Lizzie's guilt based on her behavior after the loss of both parents.
Lizzie DID IT!!! She had been the only other person in the house when her stepmother was murdered, AND when someone killed her father! Hey! It was summer, and hot - even hot inside the home - and, some biographies have pointed out, she was having her period that day. Her sister was at a neighbor's house, visiting. She hated her stepmother, and may have hated her father for remarrying after her mother passed away. Plus, she had plenty of time to wash any blood from her body and clothing - or to burn the dress(!) - before calling the police to report the incident. Also, violence was unusual in that era. The only other option would be perhaps an ex-employee of her father's, who carried a grudge because Lizzie's father was notoriously stingy and had a reputation as a cheapskate! It sounds to me that when you put all the factors together, it appears that she WAS the killer - but we'll never know for sure!!
@@nancyayers6355 ...I don't think she had much time at all, police said her fathers blood was wet, not enough time to dry. Plus she burned the dress in front of witnesses.. What bugs me is there are so many different accounts by different people as to what happened and when in the timeline.. But ya, we will never know for sure, other than a terrible, dynamic, violent thing happened that day. [Not just superheroes wore capes back then] lol
When Lizzie yelled to Bridgette that her Father had been killed, she said that "Someone had come in" and murdered her Father. This seams to me to be an attempt to divert blame away from herself. Why wouldn't she say Fathers been murdered or someone murdered Father instead of "someone came in and murdered Father". I feel the murder was a spur of the moment one and not planned ahead, although her feeling that something bad was going to happen could have been her realizing that she was near her breaking point.
I agree there was reasonable doubt. I’ve always wondered what happened to the servant afterwards and whether she received a windfall from somewhere. Thanks Dr G!
Brigitte moved West to Anaconda, Montana afterwards. I went there and went to her resting place. She married a man with the last name Sullivan but never had children. She was only ever involved in her husband's side of the family.
Couldn’t she have hired someone to do it? Many female murderers do that. That would explain a lot. She could have been aware and witnessed it all, but avoided the blood spatter, and of course the goal was financial independence from a perceived tyrannical life in a different era where spinsterhood seemed her future. Maybe her dad forbade her from marrying? Maybe she tried to secure the acid for poisoning first and when that failed had a lover or someone kill those she resented the most? I’ve seen “Snapped”, it seems to happen a lot.
Uncle John coming to stay the day before with no bags or change of clothes is v suspish. He had money problems. Abby was dusting the guest room he was staying in when attacked....
This is an amazing mystery that still leaves people scratching their heads to this day. That said, I can't escape the feeling that their is some missing information, evidence if you will, that is not in the record. What would have made sense of all of this? Thanks for the video. Appreciated.
I'm really surprised you didn't mention the well known suspicion that Lizzie was sexually molested by her father. They even refer to it during tours of the Lizzie Borden house. That certainly explains the rage.
@@TheGoldbaxterand where exactly would the evidence come from? It's not out of the realm of possibility at all. And given the behavior of the sisters, abuse of some kind can absolutely be suspected.
This case has always made me feel sick to my stomach! There is something that feels very unnatural about the relationships between the father and the people living in the home !!! 😢.
I look forward to everything you post - even if it’s something I may already be familiar with (true crime addict so I know all about Borden) but I still watch it because I really respect how you always back things with science.
22:49 Lizzie Borden’s appearance [irregardless of guilt or innocence] post an horrific double murder: "The reports indicated that her _HAIR_ wasn’t even disheveled!" Me [in response] immediately assessing my *OWN* reflection in a mirror, _4 WHOLE WEEKS_ into social-distancing/COVID-19 pandemic-panic lockdown: *OH DEAR GOD!!!😬NOOO!😳* But still, I _DEFINITELY_ haven’t been suspected of committing a murder... *YET!*
I am not an expert but I recall doing research on Lizzie Borden for a presentation years ago and reading biographies about her. I felt she was quite the enigma.
And if Lizzie didn’t do it, who did? Some unknown person entered the house and made it up the stairs and killed Abby without being seen or heard? And then managed to stay in the house or leave and come back and kill Mr. Borden without being seen or heard? I find the scenario of an outsider being the murderer very difficult to believe.
Exactly. The very same things that appear to exonerate Lizzie also would appear to exonerate everyone else. Does that mean the murders never happened?!
If you read other books on her, there is some speculation that Emma did it, and Lizzie was covering up for her. Apparently Andrew Borden was abusive as well.
This is one of the most interesting analyses I have seen on Lizzie Borden, and although I am not particularly able to judge whether or not this is a valid analysis, it seems like it to me. You are so interesting to listen to, and I thoroughly enjoy your videos. Just about to subscribe!
I have been interested in the Lizzie Borden case for 20 years plus...and have watched numerous documentaries and read many articles..books etc...this is the first time that I have really thought about and focused on Lizzie's extract words...when you stayed them out loud..it really made me think.... I believe most people (especially if they were innocent of the crime)....esp a young women in that time..woukd have been so shocked and in such disbelief of what had occured...would be screaming...crying..and carrying on a great deal...and in total shock...and would not have been so calm...and to make comments as...."come quick...father is dead..someone came in and killed him".....I have always thought she was most likely quilty..but those exact words..for sure...make me have no doubts.. If you really thought "some stranger" came in "broke in"...what ever..any rational person....would be running out of the house screaming for help..as well as would be in fear of their own life...assuming she had no knowledge of whether the "killer" was still in the house or not!
Excellent point, would any sane person hang around a house where a bloody murder (literally!) had just occurred? Why wasn't she terrified and running for the neighbors?
@@SnowBall-hz6pu You're very welcome. In fact some people have used this as one argument in favor of Lizzie's guilt--only the murderer would have known that staying in the house at that time was perfectly safe with no killer lurking about. Of course maybe she was in shock, or foolhardy, or insanely courageous--but it does look suspicious!
At 5:15 you mention that the police describe Abby as being calm. I think you meant Lizzie was calm. Abby was dead. I guess that is as calm as you can get. But otherwise, I enjoyed your presentation. I was just telling my husband that we need to go stay at the Lizzie Borden B&B. Weirdly enough, he had never heard about the murders and did not know who Lizzie Borden was!
@@christiansamaroo Maybe he does that to see if we're really listening to the whole presentation. I caught that one and a few minor errors on other of his vids too.
Did anyone do a spiritual cleansing of that house after Lizzie whacked her parents ? There would be bad energy in that house. The court should have smoked her butt. She killed her parents for the cash.
I lived in Fall River for the first 18yrs of my life, so I thought it was cool that you were doing this video. I don't think Lizzy completed to act of murder, but I do believe her sister and a man (not 100% sure that it was the Uncle) planned it and carried it out, involving Lizzy only so she would be the scapegoat. The fact that the police didn't really investigate or gather evidence right away allows for too many unknowns to really know for sure though.
I believe it is entirely possible that John Morse came into town unannounced to talk Andrew out of changing his will as there was talk that he was leaving his wealth to Abby and her family as opposed to his daughters. They never found a new will however one of the officers made note of a roll of papers burner in the kitchen stove.
One thing puzzles me: why have I never heard anyone analyze the movements of the uncle who came to visit? Could he have been familiar enough with the household to have come back and either waited between deeds or left and come back again to do the second? Could Lizzie and Bridget have known something? If Lizzie was the murderer, why exonerate Sullivan like that, when she might have made a convenient scapegoat? There are a lot of possibilities here; I guess that's why we're all still talking about it. Thanks for another interesting video.
It wouldn't have been the Uncle because he wouldn't have bludgeoned an elderly couple that way. The murders were entirely personal and carried out in such a way that the murderers emotions would have been competely spent. The murderer would have been calm after the initial excitement, if you will.
Bryan Velasco : why ? Mary was not mentally ill, She had a great deal of trouble understanding and believing she was a symptomatic and viewing the time element and understanding of viruses back then it is self explanatory.
I love the combination of history and true crime so much! In my opinion, the most likely theory is that Lizzie Borden got away with murder, but I also think that Maggy helped her with her testamony. Also, how would Lizzy have been able to put on a dress without help that quick? And why did Maggy not hear the brutal murder of Andrew although she hears anything else all the time. This was a brutal crime, it was for sure anything but silent... I also covered this case and it is so fascinating even after all these years :)
The maid's name was Bridget, not Maggie. Lizzie called her Maggie because that was their previous maid's name and Lizzie thought that since Bridget was beneath her, she need not call her by her correct name.
It's because there was lack of hard evidence which could have pointed out to Lizzie's part in the murders. Lizzie's appearance after the violent events was inconsistent to what one would expect the state of her if she was supposed to have bludgeoned her stepmother & father - no signs of blood on her face, hair & dress. Even her hairstyle wasn't in a disarray either and the very short timeline between Andrew Borden's arrival back to the house & his subsequent bloody death which meant Lizzie wouldn't have had the chance to clean herself up so quickly before shouting for Bridget to come downstairs after the discovery of her father's lifeless body.
In his book, The Cases That Haunt Us, FBI profiler John Douglas does a psychological profile of the killer, looks at the circumstances of the case and concludes...Lizzie done it. Your take on the case is interesting as well. It was believed at the time that the jurors thought she did it but sympathized with her because her father was an unusually awful and abusive man and he had recently threatened to disinherit Lizzie and leave everything to his wife.
Petition to bring capes back to everyday fashion 🙋🏻♀️🙋🏻♀️ But also i always thought that she had done it but hearing your take on it makes me think differently 🤔 (welp I should have finished the video before commenting to find that you agree that she did it 🤣)
I have a beautiful rich blue hooded cape made of wool felt. I love it! And, get compliments on it whenever I wear it. I don't care if they are not in fashion either. :D
Another great analysis. I stayed at the Lizzie Borden house. It's a b&b now. Me and my wife were left alone when the kid went McDonalds. The owner showed up. He bought the house for a toy for his wife. Uber rich. I asked him how he got to the same color when all the pictures were in black and white. He said we had him scrape the house down to first color. Then we saw it. It was olive green. Then he had the house painted. He also says he constructed furniture to match. I can honestly say I was in the Lizzie Borden house with just me and my wife. We got there in August. My wife took full advantage of the shower that they installed. We slept in Lizzie's room the first night and then the murder room the second night. It wasn't a big house but there were no hallways. For breakfast they served us Johnny cakes. same menu that Lizzy had the day of the murder. Then we went to the vineyard to see the Chapaquitic bridge (spelling incorrect) ironically the couple that watched our kids that weekend, he was my best friend. He asked where we were going. I said to the Borden house in Fall River. He said that his mother was related to her. I asked what her maiden name was. he said Borden. She came from Boston. The bordens are known in New England. There is a million Bordens out there. My wife made me go there to expunge the fear I had of looking under a bed at any time.
It was a hot day and people questioned Lizzy’s story about being in the loft of the barn. No one seemed to question the fact that Ms. Sullivan was napping on the third floor in that heat?
Yes! And , if you can find the famous picture of Andrew Borden lying on the sofa after his murder he is wearing pretty heavy clothing for such a hot day-he had to be properly attired no matter the weather-part of being respectable
lol I thought about that too. Remember that just before that Abby had her out side washing all the windows. It might have been a little cooler in the house. also, she had probably been up since 5 or 6 am at the latest getting water, making breakfast and all her other morning chores. I often wonder how *anyone* slept without air conditioning back then!
Thanks, Dr. Grande, always found that case intriguing, would have loved to have been a fly on the wall. With today’s forensics, I feel certain the case would have been MUCH more definitive, guess we’ll never know now. Stay well! 😊
The "spinster" life was often most chosen by those who were lesbian (not all). One had to marry within one's own social class too. Lots of rules there. I think it is safe to say, she did it. I think it is safe to say, it was done with her sister's understanding and support. I think the maid may very well have known exactly what was happening. .. who said "not my business here" simply because she'd have been worked to death and paid very little by Andrew & Abby. She'd have had to play a low profile since her re-employment elsewhere would have depended on her discretion in this case. People during this time didn't like publicity in any form. When it was about servants or women doubly so. Just having a minor involvement would have been a determent to her being re-employed. Lizzy's involvement in any form guilty or not would have ostracized her and resulted in being a spinster for life...Emma too. They had nothing to lose and everything to gain by these murders. I think there was plenty of guilt to go around.
Andrew apparently tly turned away a few suitors because he decided they were after his money. He condemned his daughters to spinsterhood. Brigitte moved to Anaconda, Montana where she married a man with the same last name. I met Bridgitte's husband's niece's sons wife. The niece's son was a Police officer killed in the line of duty. Also, Lucille Ball lived in Anaconda, Montana for a short time when she was a young child. Some of her relatives still live there.
'Parasitic lifestyle'? In her social class, it was quite normal for one or more daughters to remain spinsters and act as housekeepers and carers for their elderly parents, instead of marrying, or becoming nuns (if they were Roman Catholics). Leaving home and having a career, and possibly affairs, like the heroine of Tales of San Francisco, was just not an option.
I’d be fascinated to hear your thoughts on Jack the Ripper, Dr. Grande! Obviously it’s hard to do a full analysis given the perpetrator wasn’t caught, but even so, I’d be very interested to hear if you have any opinions on the case.
They solved the case last year. There was no hype about it because of who it turned out to be. They belong to a group that is not allowed to be criticized.
MissDarleneRae I mean, they can’t be 100% sure but the guy prolly did it. I feel like it was a meme? I remember seeing it. People were saying, “finally, we can get that guy behind bars.”
@@breedlejuice8691 They did forensic/DNA testing so they're pretty sure. The guy (Aaron Kosminski, a 23-year-old Polish barber) was the prime suspect at the time so no big shocking twist.
Fun fact: this is one of the 1st crime scenes in America where photographs were used as evidence. The photographs are (or copies of them are) displayed in the parlor, you can see them when you do the tour
I saw a documentary on Lizzie Borden once where they used luminol on the walls in the basement, and found blood stains that had seeped down from where the sofa was where Andrew was murdered. Also found some other blood stains in the basement. Wish I could remember the name of the program.
@@julienielsen3746 Julie, if I'm not mistaken, the program you're referring to is "Lizzie Borden Had an Axe" on the Discovery Channel in 2004. Tom Lange, one of the O.J. Simpson case detectives, was one of the hosts . I remember the luminol stains in the basement were creepy as hell. What's REALLY scary is how time flies, I can't believe it was 16 years ago when it aired.
The PCL-R is such a great tool. Thank you! Was used as the primary intake tool for sex offenders moving from DOC to " treatment " program where I worked for years. Most scored in high 20's, low 30's. A couple who were murderers as well scored at the top. Have always wondered if Lizzie was sexually abused by her father though.
Interesting analysis! One fact that was not mentioned was that Andrew Borden had gifted Abby’s relation with a home and both Lizzie and Emma were very resentful for the generosity of their father to Abby’s family. Why would a child of two-Lizzie’s age when her father remarried-not bond with a surrogate mother figure? This most basic developmental need being rejected by Lizzie is highly suspect...? Everyone is affected when a person shows more attention and caring about their bank balance than the humans in their life and sporadic bouts of generosity do not negate the daily deprivations of the most basic needs and the resulting social embarrassment. I definitely think she did it: motive AND opportunity! Thank you, Dr. G!
I wonder if Emma strongly influenced Lizzie against her stepmother? Emma had been raised by her loving mother and was near 12 when her mother died. She had swirn/ promised to look after her baby sister & could have seen the stepmother, who came along when Emma was a grown 14, as an interloper, a rival to het mother, wanting baby sister Lizzie to be loyal to their mother & not love Abby, despite Abby's efforts to win over both girls. If Lizzie disliked & resented Abby, how much of that was Emma's doing???
It would be interesting to know, has anyone gone to the house and tried a recreation of the murders, to see how the sound traveled and how long it would have taken Lizzie to have changed her cloths (getting someone who is familiar with clothing of that period).
In the movie that Elizabeth Montgomery played Lizzie, she removed all clothing before killing them. I think that's very likely. She probably had her hair covered.
It is possible that she removed her bloody clothing and hid it under another dress hanging in her closet. The police only did a very short, cursory search of her closet.
Also, the dress she was wearing that day was one of two “wrappers” , a type of casual house dress, that her dressmaker made for her. Apparently she favored the color blue as both dresses were that color Both dresses buttoned up the front so she could have removed it herself. If her underclothing was blood stained after Abbey’s murder she had plenty of time to remove it, change and hide it. However, she had very little time after Andrew’s murder, either to change her clothing and wash herself. There was one small blood spot found on her petticoat. Lizzie referred to this blood spot as a “flea bite“ which was a euphemism for menstrual blood in that era. I’m inclined to think that she did it based on her behavior afterwards. Burning her dress, burning the copy of her father’s will (did he change it in favor of Abby?”.
@Haha Porter V If you are talking about Bobby Fischer he did not get arrested for playing chess. He was wanted because he traveled yo Yugoslavia in 1992 when it was illegal. However, it might not be a bad idea to comment on him. He made anti-semantic remarks even though his mother was Jewish which would make him Jewish and he applauded the attack on the World Trade Center in 2001. I think he even was a member of a cult once.
Loved your analyses and comments. As a woman it is so hard for me to believe that any woman could complete such a grisly set of murders. I can't imagine a woman being able to do what she did! (or any person) But maybe after losing her pet pigeons in such a horrible way she was pushed over the edge? What would her motive have been? Freedom? Would she not have freedom when her parents passed without the guilt and horror of what she did? So many unknowns make it hard to believe. I think we don't know enough to ever have a feeling either way.... whoever did it was a tortured soul! So sad and scary! Thank you for an interesting video!
Lizzie must have felt desperate to hear from Uncle John that Andrew was changing his will and leaving his fortune to Abby and Abbys side of the family.
What's another interesting connection is that James Fallon, who wrote The Psychopath Inside, in which he explores the genetic determinants of psychopathy (including his own), is related to Lizzie Borden.
Thank you for doing my request of Lizzy Borden Dr, Grande. I don't think Lizzy is guilty, but, then again, i just don't want her to be You are right, this case does ride on a razors edge, thanks for the quote. I'm stealing it....lol
A few additions: Lizzie was the only person with access and opportunity to linger unseen for an hour and a half. She was the only person with access who had a significant financial motive, control over half of the money, and her older mother/ sister was highly suggestible, giving up a larger bedroom twice. No one looked at the easily washable metal sad irons, 6# metal irons that Lizzie stated that she was using that day. How much effort would it take to quickly, quietly disable an adult with head wound from a lifted 6# pointed iron? Lizzie would have had to have heard Abby's body fall upstairs, if Lizzie had been innocent. Andrew's top coat and the wall would have blocked most blood. Would a woman with two sad iron double-handed hits to the left side of the head spin and fall or run to crawl under the bed? Knowing how long it took to undress/redress in the period attire, makes me wonder if Lizzie wrapped unused menstrual rags around her forearms or as an apron. These were found later in the basement. We know she burnt a dress that already had "paint" on it. The sick friend note Lizzie said Abby received was never identified. We know, years before, Emma left school early to return to her mother role with Lizzie, and Lizzie may have been influenced to hate Abby and steal from her.
The upper room Abby was in would have been warmer and drier allowing the blood to dry faster. The investigator at the time didn’t use modern forensic science to prove the time line, it was a guess
I think she did it too. Come on. I think it’s interesting, too, that people think because they didn’t have modern forensic science in those days, that they were keystone cops or something. People weren’t stupid then. . I guess everybody was innocent back then. 🤷♀️ ESPECIALLY a woman. Gosh golly gee they couldn’t possibly kill anyone 🙄
@@aslmad1Well, I guess if you see enough dead bodies. And don’t forget people did their own butchering back then a lot of the time, or CERTAINLY would have grown up with it, to have a reasonable life experience to have an educated guess to know about blood drying. Even without that, there WAS fundamental police science. No, it wasn’t CSI. But CSI isn’t CSI. And blood is blood, animal or otherwise.
On the "parasitic lifestyle" we also have to consider that at the time an unmarried woman was expected to live with and be supported by her parents. There was nothing at all unusual about Lizzy and her sister being entirely financially dependent on their father.
In some cases, the kids are there to look after the parents. Perhaps ironic in this case.
Women were not allowed to just go support themselves and live on their own if they were spinsters they had to live at home with their family.
True, but in Lizzie's case, she was considered
a spinster, since she was close to thirty years
old, and her father's known cheapness must
have grated on her, knowing that for that era,
he was actually a wealthy man. She must have felt angry and rejected. No one fell in love with her, and women were seen as rejects if they
hit 21 or 22 and we're still single. Her era was light years away from any idea of high tech.
No computers, no TV ... What did she do all
day? Wake up, dress for the day - then what?
It appears her life was deadly dull! A hot summer, little to nothing to provide possible distractions, simmering hatred for her step-
mother, resentment toward her father for
bringing this stranger into their small home, maybe all these tensions suddenly erupted
into rage. Maybe she couldn't tolerate her
life any longer, and simply snapped!
@@nancyayers6355 I believe the recent Dateline special on the murders said that Lizzie was used to wielding an axe (or hatchet) when butchering hogs in the backyard. We think of them as city people, but in fact most in cities and towns of the 19th century had livestock of some kind. The investigator on the show suggested that Lizzie's skill in butchering would have made it more plausible that she could carry out the gruesome attacks. She knew how to kill, and was used to a gory scene. lol omg
Well By God!
A couple things you left out of the time line. Lizzie was originally with Emma in Fairhaven, but returned home due to obligations with the church. Dr. Bowen sent Mrs Borden home due to "summer illness" or food poisoning. Lizzie dismissed Bridgette, after asking if she would like to go to Sargent's Goods for some dress fabric.
Mrs Borden the second was actually struck by an instrument between am inch and 1.5 inches which isn't possible for a hatchet. Now Mrs Churchill, the nextdoor neighbor, saw Lizzie shortly after the bodies are found, noted she looked pale and dismayed. One thing never mentioned is the fact that Lizzie is on large doses of morphine due to "hysteria". All information given to police, any information given during testimony she is under the influence. From my experience in the house her personality is that of a diva. She spent far to much time with children and animals to be a psychopath. Bull headed and bossy sure, hate filled enough kill two people? I don't think so.
Now if you have made it this far you are wondering "who is this guy," well I happen to be one of the guides for the house and knowing Lizzie is my job.
Was she on morphine before the murders? It was an easily acquired household drug at the time....and generally people on it are docile and chill.
@@geslinam9703 she was not. Dr Bowen prescribed it for her due to "hysteria" from what I have researched at the house, Lizzie was an active young lady. And like you pointed out, if you're on morphine, you won't be doing much of anything.
King Cr1mz0n yes, morphine was a common drug for women of the time, especially for hysteria - which is where the word hysterectomy came from. Doctors thought that women lost their minds when their uterus detached or something like that.
Hey there! For some reason, I believe that you may have been the guide on one of my 3 trips there. Lol, it's a popular choice when friends and family come visit. I offer Nantucket, I offer Seven Gables, but no, it's Lizzie's place.😄
Nice to meet you! What do you think of the hypothesis of a bastard half brother doing the actual killing? I rea a fictional book that supposed that.
Being a Borden who was not only born in fall river but worked for the fall river PD, I can say that that the city is still very divided on Lizzie's guilt.
I also a Borden through my paternal grandmother and she was a distant relative. Although, one of my great aunts, who never married was Anna Mae Borden.
Any reasonable and honest person has to admit there's no way to know either way. She certainly _could_ be guilty and she certainly _could_ be innocent. Those are the only certainties regarding her role in the crime.
@@retha1875are any of your relatives psychotic?
Sorry to read that. I hope things will change with the passing of time. The Bordens I believe are related to Sir Robert Borden 1853- 1937 Prime Minister of Canada during WWI
Thanks for comment,Jesus is the way
You summed it up beautifully: "Lizzie Borden's guilt and her innocence are BOTH improbable for many reasons." Now THAT is why the fascination of that hot day in Fall River will never go away,
As well as Jon Benet Ramsey case.
@@poetcomic1 Yes. Again, like Lizzie, a probable sexual abuse/trafficking of Jon Benet, in my opinion.
No you didn't, There are several excelent books on this never ending story, you should read one. It's a lot more interesting than your version.
It wasn't a hot day.
My dad died of cancer in March; I was his sole caregiver; I was NUMB for about a week, then it hit me like a ton of bricks. It isn't fair for anyone to judge someone else based on their reaction to death in the family.
Exactly
It was odd to be unmarried at the time and she reads autistic when I hear everything but everyone spoke differently back then so I wasn't sure .
I have autism in my family and it was just a feeling I got and maybe why she didn't get married because they didn't understand that or have support back then .
But they spoke so uniquely back then and perhaps she was just not good with social and they never met husbands.
I don't think she did it at all
If she wasn't that ..she could have been learning disabled.
Her dad wasn't perfect but she didn't seem to want to leave and her dad bought another place for the girls .
They just stayed w their dad and step mom ..
@@stephaniespc many women didn't get married for various reasons.
@Teffi_Club true.
I think her age and class worked against her. Even though they were wealthy, they weren't high society. I think there was a lack of suitable men that fit into her class or she into theirs.
That is true. But somebody dying of cancer and somebody getting their brains bashed out by an axe is a bit different. My dad died of cancer too. I was there. I still miss him every day and it’s been 30 years. But that’s a bit different than walking in on your dad’s head hacked up. I think I’d personally be a bit more emotional, maybe? At least at first? 🤷♀️
Feel you treated Lizzie fairly and didn't do a hatchet job on her. Please do an analysis of people who cannot seem to stop using puns.
I think the doctor took a pretty good swing at the case!
You all are cut ups!
@@cherylp7841 Punaneurosis is a much misunderstood condition.
I think I suffer from punaneurosis. I think those who are around me suffer the most from my disorder.
😑
Dr. Todd is cranking em’ out lately and I’m so here for it !
Seagall Alwajih Ain’t he just! And each one is still the same top quality. Keep it going Dr Grande
He's on lockdown like the rest of us presumably. A lot of TH-cam channels seem extra productive lately!
So is Narc Survivor. He's doing a fantastic job with his!
@Seagall Alwajh.. Spot on. Loving it every day!!!!!!
I know-I'm hooked on this channel!
24:21 I don't see how you reach the conclusion that Lizzie Borden didn't have much to gain by the deaths of her step-mother and father. 1) She gained her independence from a controlling father. 2) She inherited a fortune, even after dividing it with her sister. 3) She rid herself of step-mother Abby, whom she hated. 4) She bought a fine home on "The Hill", the prestigious part of town where she lived an upper-class lifestyle. 5) She opened her home to the bohemian crowd she enjoyed (actors, painters, musicians) for parties that would have been forbidden while living with her father and step-mother. In those days being involved with the theatre/actors was considered scandalous by religious folk. 6) She transformed from a plain, provincial spinster into a grand, fashionable lady of independent means, free at last to pursue her passions: animal welfare, the arts, and perhaps even a romantic relationship with the actress Nance O'Neil.
I agree with you. She certainly had almost everything to gain with the death of her father and step mother.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Yeah if you know all about this case you know that she was very envious of the wealthy people who got to enjoy their wealth while Lizzie’s father was very tight fisted and selective about his spending. It’s apparent by how she lived after collecting her inheritance that she felt stifled and bored living under her father’s rule. She went full party girl after the trial.
Agreed
The fact that she said "someone came in and killed him!" sealed it for me. She was covering her tracks with her first sentence. Her other behaviors leading up to the murders (including trying to poison her WHOLE FAMILY) were giant red flags.
What makes you think she tried to poison her family? There are reports that her step mother AND her father insisted on them eating spoiled mutton on more than a few occasions.
Her explanations - buying poison to kill moths in a fur or searching for a fishing weight (?) in the barn were totally off the wall.
Maybe she was referring to Emma who might have came and went back to Fair Haven.The raincoat was missing.
@@poetcomic1 but she didn't get to purchase the prussic acid.
Yes, if _"someone came in and killed him!"_ were her first words, that's a big red flag. Just like the woman who suffocated her boyfriend in a suitcase, murderers are quick to give alibis where innocent people wouldn't even be thinking of that.
"Two can keep a secret if one of them is dead". Lizzie wasn't going to confess - ever. She knew her best defense was silence.
Love the quote.❤️
I adore that song
I have really studied this case carefully and if you dig deep enough you will find that Lizzie had a great love and respect for animals. Her father had killed all her homing pigeons not long before his death. This could have triggered her rage but I believe she had help. When she died she left all her money to the care of animals so the killing of a cat in her past was most likely a rumour.
Those pigeons were not pets; that myth has been debunked.
Since I am an overly simplistic person, what points to Lizzie's guilt to me was her hatred towards her step mother, the frustration with her father's parsimony & the dress with the wet paint that was burned. I just can't account as to why Lizzie was so clean after the murders, except for bloody rags soaking in a basin down in the cellar that Lizzie said were menstrual rags. So who knows? Thank you for another very interesting video. Cheers!
The movie with Christina Ricci shows her committing the murders either in her undergarments or flat out naked. Which is definitely a good way to avoid blood stains, even if that’s not what happened I found it interesting
@@Dizzydollie7 Good point! I forgot all about that. Cheers!
Sister said she burned the dress, not Lizzie. Maybe nothing to this, or maybe she helped her.
@@majorkade So her SISTER burned the dress, not Lizzie? Hmmm...looked it up, sister testified to this in court. I know the sister hated step mom, too. So it makes sense that sister might have lent Lizzie a helping hand, even in court testimony.
@@longwhitemane I got it off the Dateline special the other night. Another angle might be that if the sister had nothing to do it, she would have gotten Lizzie's share of the inheritance if Lizzie had really done it and been found guilty. Lots of little ways to analyze this. Also, Dateline reported that the sisters had a real "falling out" years later, long after they had moved in together into the swankier home,. The sister left Lizzie and never spoke to her again. lol Really. More to speculate on.
I agree with your conclusion. In addition, I read her father had given some of his property to Abby and her family members. A property had just been given again recently. Witnesses said Lizzie was very upset about it. I see that as additional motive.
Yes, this is related in the excellent book, A Private Disgrace, by Victoria Lincoln. The girls were pretty much at war with the parents over the first property transfer; then they found out their father was planning to transfer a much-loved family property to Abby and her family. This may be what pushed her over the edge.
The hated stepmother was her intended victim. I think she felt she had to kill her father, there was no way he wouldn't think she had done it. Killing both of them turned out to be an effective strategy for her, though it was very risky considering Bridget was around. People love to imagine scenarios where she was innocent, but the fact there was so much time between the murders proves that she alone did it. She was IN THE HOUSE, people, an innocent Lizzie would have at least heard Abby being murdered.
I think we need to remember that we have very little information about her childhood and her behaviors throughout her life. What we do know is that her mother passed when she was a toddler. That would definitely impact her and would be a loss. What was their relationship like? We don't know. What we do know is that Lizzie was not close with her stepmother whom she had since she was around 4. If the stepmother was loving toward Lizzie and her sister, then why wasn't that affection/love given back? I think that sheds some light on her compassion/empathy/relationships. I would also dig deeper into what type of parent her father was. Was he cold, distant (yes, I know he bought her gifts), formal, involved? How many nanny's did Lizzie have as a young child which would have resulted in more losses? All of those experiences contribute to her possibly developing a personality disorder such as Borderline. Also, it shouldn't be overlooked that people in the home felt nauseous in the days prior to the murders. Was she attempting to poison them and that didn't work out? Lizzie is also trying to buy lethal chemicals (could be used a a weapon) in the days preceding the murders and the pharmacist wouldn't sell it to her (if he trusted her and believed her reason for needing it, then why not sell it to her?). Women in her day and age and economic status of course volunteered. It's what they did. So I don't give too much credit to that as showing her compassion for others. Plus, people with Borderline Personality disorder can be compassionate and have some empathy for others in certain situations. They are not psychopaths. However, they can have uncontrollable rage, be manipulative, AND make themselves out to be the victim. Based on lack of evidence, stories, etc. of her childhood, we just don't know enough about her past behaviors to say dysfunctional/violent behaviors didn't exist. They could have, but maybe people explained it away, dismissed it, or didn't know how to handle it so it wasn't discussed. We do know she was accused of shoplifting and killing a cat. So, if she's wealthy, why shoplift? What's that about? If she has so much compassion, why kill an animal? If she's so well liked, who were her longtime friends? Did she have any? And what did they say about her? We have to remember the culture of the upper class in the 1800's and also take all of that into consideration. Overall, what are the chances of someone walking into the house, murdering Mrs. Borden, waiting around for Mr. Borden, and then killing him. It was overkill for both people, so it's likely the murderer had a personal relationship with them and was angry/enraged with them. Who was that? Why were there no other suspects? I think it's likely that she did commit the murders.
the little one meeting ('hello there , I'm your new mama') or whatever.... the new wife. Did this person show love only with stipulation.... and somehow probable that the 4 yr old was sensitive to the limits of acceptance. It's a long time to hold a grudge --- and those who see yet do nothing, well, he too had to be punished. No one mentioned seeing a stranger who had blood spatter on his clothing --- did they? had to be an 'inter-familial'" pay-back occurrence.
Qq+q2q was
@@stjudeprayer7. Accounts I’ve read say that stepmother was a shrew who was as controlling with the girls as the father was with her and the girls. No wonder the sisters resented her. It went both ways. They were his blood, but she was his wife and mistress of the household. Abby would not let anybody forget that. What love? It may have been for show in public but not real.
I can’t imagine this. It’s so foreign from my own experience. Poor girls.
The cat killing story has no evidence to back it up. I don’t think we can really believe that it’s true. She cared for pigeons that were in the barn - which her father ultimately killed because he didn’t want kids coming around to hunt them.
I used to study and read her case files on my down time. I read the forensic reports, blood splatter reports, the police statement reports, court transcripts etc. I think we can all make a biased opinion one way or the other... But shoddy police work will keep this one cold.
The M.O. of this brutal display of savagery in a homicide is 1. Someone who knew the vic well enough to be really pissed...
2. Or a straight up sociopath.
As someone with a humble law background I like her for it. She had motive, she had opportunity, and going off the hints of possible childhood trauma loss of mother and potential sexual abuse by father... She could have mustered the rage.
Maybe she ratcheted up the brutality to make her uncle look like the perp. When the poison failed, she couldn't use the Irish maid as a convenient fall guy. In which case, this would speak to her being a sociopath.
Great video Dr. Grande. Few points though: Lizzie was on morphine when she was initially questioned by the police, she wasn't identified by the pharmacist, someone said "that's Ms. Borden" (something along those lines) when she left; there were hundreds of Ms. Borden's in Fall River at the time. Abby Borden was supposed to babysit for her sister the day of the crime, the sister changed plans last minute. There was a policeman's ball the day of the crimes and the police were working with a skeleton crew, and it was also an election year; someone needed to be convicted. There is a surviving letter written by Lizzie in prison expressing deep anguish related to the loss of her father. In Fall River the way they lived was keeping with their station ( no electricity or indoor bathrooms) there was extreme wealth around (think Hetty Green, Newport, RI). The Borden's were merely comfortable in relation.
Yes, I have always thought something highly unusual went on that day.
Finally, making the statements fearing for her fathers safety...something was going on that that family didn't want out for public consumption.
Great video as always! One point I remember from a documentary I watched on Lizzie is that she was reputed to be deeply resentful of her father not buying a house up on the hill where the wealthier community lived. She was unable to attend balls and luncheons that the wealthier people had, and she felt entitled to this too, but resentful that this wasn’t her life. She resented Andrew not buying a house on the hill because he could afford it. There was no running water in their house. Her step mothers sister got into financial woes and nearly lost her house, and Andrew bought her house for her, causing Lizzie and Emma to protest. He was known to be very frugal, yet he opened his wallet generously this time. This for me is an important point... Lizzie was supposed to be very angry about this. Also, this documentary says Lizzie did in fact have a history of shop lifting; she would steal from a local store, and they simply took a note of what was stolen and Andrew would reimburse them. There apparently was a a history of criminality in her shoplifting.
In one of the documentaries, an older lady who knew Lizzie in her later years also spoke up and spoke of her kind personality. So quite a conflicting elements.
Of course, it is hard to know as this was so long ago, and the collection of evidence is not nearly up to modern day standards, but I agree with you Dr Grande, it does seem likely she was guilty. There was motive - she hated Abby, she resented the favouring of Abbys sister by her father, and she wanted a finer lifestyle, so perhaps this was the motive for killing Andrew....
Interesting assessment as always, great learning to be had! Thank you for this video Dr Grande.
Hope you are safe for COVID-19!
It seems that there would have been some blood on her if she were guilty. I cried like a baby at my friend St Mary of Griner's funeral, but I didn't see her own daughter she'd a tear. I am sure her daughter loved St. Mary, but people react differently. I have been at stoic reactions at some funerals. I suppose one could be extremely cold, in shock, or possess "an English reserve."
When I was growing up my Dad bought an encyclopedia type series called Crimes and Punishment and I there was this story complete with graphic photos. I’ve been hooked ever since and I was 6 years old! I love your series!
Years ago I helped publish a book that described why they feel the “secret” half brother did this crime because he was seen as an outsider to the family
Hey, very interesting videos, thank you, I always enjoy them. Lizzie Borden was my grandfather's Sunday school teacher! He swore by her innocence, saying that he couldn't possibly believe she committed the crime.
Well, her father wasn't a very popular guy but its all her 🙄. I dont buy it.
Sometimes it's the people you least suspect....I still think she did it. She got a lot of money when they died, bought a grand home, got to do whatever she wanted to.....
Narcissists hide in churches.
My mother was a case in point.
She maintained a facade of being nice in public, but was a monster behind closed doors.
Narcissists need attention from people like they need air. They'll involve themselves in charitable activities that make people think that they're nice, but they're utterly self-serving.
They especially love positions of authority over vulnerable people.
@@caroliner2029 I have some of those in my own family...so I know exactly what you mean. My mother and dad were wonderful people...but other people in my family aren't.
@@g.a.6978 not do I
There was a theory that the girls had been molested by their dad and the step mother new about it. If it was true the maid probably knew too. It does seem strange that the daughters were never allowed to go out into society, have friends, date and get married. The father controlled everything.
It wasn't that they weren't allowed, it's that their father chose to keep the family in such primative living conditions that they never had suitors.
That makes total sense why they would murder him. Sounds very similar to the Menendez brothers
Yes! The historians who have studied the case believe this. One weird detail I remember hearing was that Lizzy gave her father her school pin or broach. At the time it was something that girls gave to their boyfriends so it would have been considered very weird and creepy to give it to your dad.
I am just throwing this out as a bit of a guess... but with their mother gone, and this new interloper stepmother they didn't like or get along with, might even have despised, Lizzy mostly, would it be possible that it was given as a token of affection, & since they maybe wanted to stick it to their new "mother" ("DON'T YOU DARE call her my mother!" (Lol from the 2018 movie clip I saw, that was given what looks like a horror treatment, a more malevolent background story of intrigue to go with the grissly murder)
Sticking it was also meant as a pun about the "pin" btw. Ok I've made my point ;) teehee
At this time period the man of the family controlled wife and children (sons included).
How odd this video popping up when just yesterday I was having a conversation about this. I'm reading Parallel Lives, a book from the Fall River Historical Society. It's an extremely intensive look at the time period, the city and its people. Journals, letters, official documents and records (merchants and the like) are used to try and get the best perspective of actual events.
One of the first things you mentioned, the house, isn't what it was assumed to be. It had central heating (radiators are shown in pictures) they were connected to city water, and had a water closet, not just an "outhouse" type system. Not being connected to gas isn't nearly as backward as it's portrayed to be. That would have been very expensive to do, a lot of people didn't trust it, many even wealthier folks didn't use it and many of the street lights in town still were lit at dusk, and extinguished at daybreak.
There is zero evidence of the "shoplifting legend" Despite extensive detailed records of merchants for years, and every transaction and person(s) involved.
Lizzie was one of the founding members and one of the strongest supporters of their local "Humane Society, ASPCA" and did in fact leave them a sizeable donation in her will. The largest of her will, iirc.
One item that I did find odd, was that "friends" had remarked on how Andrew Borden didn't seem to like,let, or approve of his daughters socializing. Things that make you go hmmm.
I have not heard of this book. Looking into it now.
Definitely makes you go hmmmmm
Thanks, this sounds interesting!
I also have heard the theory that Andrew had repeatedly molested Lizzie. Maybe Abby knew and so Lizzie had rage toward her, as well as Andrew. This could also explain why Andrew would buy Lizzie expensive gifts, despite normally being frugal.
NO, NO, NO!! Andrew did not molest Lizzie. I wish some people would stop saying that! Please stop!
Ah, yes. The good ole it must be the mans fault
Makes sense.
@@cynthiahardsog657 how do you know? I don't know very much about this case. The brutality of it made me wonder if she had been abused by one or both of them.
I was scanning the comments waiting for someone to mention this; this was my thought. I think Lizzie was attractive, why would she not be married? Maybe the old man, didn't want a son-in-law in on any money. And quite convenient for the father to have a "sex partner" with single girls in the home and a wife (didn't Grande say she was around 200lbs?). Unfortunately, these types of things happened back then. And if their was a bastard son, all the more reason to not have a mistress. If Lizzie was sexually abused/raped...I would say, yeah, their could be rage. She would have been a prisoner in her own home.
Abuse will make a person remain calm in scary situations. They just shut down. They also tell people what they think the person wants to hear.
I really like this vid! Thank you, I'm a new subscriber today!!!
But there's no proof she was abused. People just keep speculating on this.
I’ve always felt that the evidence from this crime had been hidden under floor boards someplace in the house. I wonder if anyone has lifted every board from top to bottom. Wouldn’t that be something.
The detectives from the epstein case would have ruled it a double suicide.
Hes alive and well in israel
It is funny because it is true. Good one.
🙂
🤣🤣
Dr. Grande, I like your take on the trauma angle. Not just because of her mother's death, but also because her father's not providing a dowry so the girls could marry was likely the cause of much resentment from them, and evidence of selfishness and lack of concern for them by their father. Being spinsters dependent on a father would be a much less ( potentially) rewarding lifestyle than having one's own husband, children, and household. It was a major plot point of the novels of that time. Henry James' Washington Square is particularly relevant, as it also features a father who could afford to provide a dowry, but did not due to various psychological factors. For a woman of that era, to be denied a dowry and hence marriage, was a hostile act on the part of a parent. Plus there is his unscrupulous business practices.
It is also quite telling that they had only one servant. Even relatively poor households at that time had at least one servant. So the girls were likely household drudges.
Excellent points.
Stephanie, I agree.
Good points
Thats interesting about the dowry. Lizzie didnt want a husband she was gay.
@@adalineproulx9773 I'm curious, what makes you say this? I wonder if a sheltered Victorian woman could even conceptualize of herself as gay in 1892. From my (admittedly small) familiarity with this case it occurred before social trends to expand women's roles and rights, but maybe Lizzie was a cutting edge trendsetter. Women at this time did not have many opportunities to experiment sexually, unless they were of lower class (and more likely to become opportunistic victims). Of course, human nature probably hasn't changed much, so some with higher recklessness would have experimented, often to dire consequences; for instance August Strindberg's play, Miss Julie, 1888, where the heroine commits suicide after the butler seduces her and she realizes his cruel, ruthless, and exploitive nature would make her life with him a Hell. Of course, people did have romantic and sexual experiences then, but the stakes were so much higher. Forced marriage, disgrace, or suicide are sanctions that probably dampened wholesale freedom. A woman's summer of sexual awakening, and subsequent compromises, Is the subject of Edith Wharton's 1917 novel, Summer.
The role of mother, wife, and head of household probably was superior to that of unmarried household drudge, as we see when Charlotte Lucas chooses to marry the awful Mr. Collins in Austen's Pride and Prejudice (1813). But I'm not a historian, so I'm only speculating.
John Morse, the uncle, was also suspect with his sudden and unusual visit, beyond perfect alibi, arguement with Andrew over money, and return to the house. When he returned, police were everywhere and people milling around but he didn't ask what was wrong? He went around back and ate pears!
Yeah, the pear-eating is, to me, VERY weird behavior. That guy was somehow involved in the murders. Very, very fishy.
You didn't mention her sister stayed by her side during the trial, but after she was acquitted, I'm not sure how long after, her sister moved away and reportedly never had contact with her again. I've always wondered if she slipped up and let her sister know she was guilty and she just couldn't accept it.
They lived together for a long while. Emma didn't approve of Lizzie's relationship with and constant parties for Nance O'Neil, who was a lesbian. That is the reason that is mostly given for Emma's separation from Lizzie.
To be honest, I don't believe Lizzie was guilty by herself. I believe the murders were planned and that Emma, Uncle John, and Bridgett all knew about it. I also believe that the murders happened either the night before or much earlier the morning of, which would explain the time to clean up the mess.
I've read two alternate interpretations of this story, both of which exonerate Lizzie Borden, though I have forgotten the authors and titles. I just looked up the wikipedia article as a reference. The article states that the girls' maternal uncle was staying in the house at the time to discuss "business" with Andrew Borden. One fairly recent alternate interpretation accuses this uncle of the murder, on financial grounds. The other, a book I read many years ago, details the stress in the house from the debilitating heat, the determination by at least one of the parents to finish the rapidly deteriorating leg of lamb (appearing at every meal, including breakfast) before buying anything else, and the insistence by Mrs. Borden over several days that the maid wash the windows. The maid did not wash the windows until the day of the murders. This book (in contrast to the wikipedia article) states the Bridget Sullivan confessed, not to lying about Lizzie's testimony, but to the murders themselves. The reason given for Lizzie's changing account of where she was, was embarrassment. She reportedly was in the basement washing out her menstrual rags. In context of the mores of the time, most women in her situation would have shaded the truth, too.
I read about the menstrual blood also. But it is also where the uncle could have washed off. He had the strength, anger over finances and an excuse of laying down. How could she have killed he father in a corset? Think they were all in on it.
In the upper northeast, these mores still exist.... I don't know where you are but we still have etiquette up here and are very discrete.
No man would have bludgeoned an elderly couple that way. That's not a man's nature. It was entirely personal. The murderer dumped their emotional hatred entirely. That is the trait of a woman.
A few months before the murder Andrew Borden actually beheaded Lizzie's pet pigeons with an axe in a fit of temper because he claimed the birds were a nuisance. That detail always made me sympathetic toward Lizzie, guilty or not.
I don’t blame her, if anyone did that to my cats they’d be dead
@@melissam597 I know right. I guess times have changed and people's sensibilities about animals have changed too.
@Jane Marsee Yes that is true. However for someone who was not married and had no serious prospects for marriage. Lizzie Borden could have projected her love and affection onto her birds as a substitute for not having a man to love her. It would not have been easy in the era in which she lived to be a "spinster" as she would have been considered weird or pitied by others. It would not justify her actions if she murdered her father for killing her pets, but whatever psychological condition she may have had, she may have killed her father for killing the pets and somehow rationalized it in her mind. Not sure about the stepmother.
I never heard about his killing her birds. And he used an axe? That is very interesting, indeed. Oh, I hate that guy! Poor Lizzie.
@Jane Marsee That depends.
As soon as Lizzie was found innocent, she purchased "Maplecroft" a house on "The HIll" where upper society lived. I've read a lot of books on Lizzie, but I think the one written by Victoria Lincoln was the most decisive. Victoria was of the upper society, born and grew up in Falls River, she knew Lizzie by sight (her house was 1 1/2 blocks away), her parents generation were Lizzie's peers. She asked her mother once why Lizzie was not liked, her mother replied tha Lizzie was "unkind" to her parents. She was very descriptive of the mores of that society. Although the upper crust pretended to be supportive of Lizzy, she was cut from their society when she was released. Her shoplifting was not just that one time at the Tilden-Thurber gallery. She was a well-known shoplifter. The clerks at the store were just instructed to write down what she stole and a bill was sent to Andrew. Note that Lizzie's allowance was quite liberal, she could have easily paid for these items. So I believe she was thrill-seeking and impulsive. She was also an animal lover, she left a rather large bequest to the local humane society. She had pet pigeons in the barn, her father had killed them all a short time before because they were attracting boys to the barn. Pretty sure she had to be very angry about that. But nothing was ever communicated verbally in the Borden household, even Bridgette said they never raised their voices while she was there. The Borden's called her Maggie, because it was the name of the last maid. Strange. When the house got broken into the year before nothing was taken except Abby's things. They weren't expensive items, things like tram tickets, costume jewelry. They always locked the doors, even their room doors (which is kind of telling). Lizzy told the police that she believed the thief used a 10 penny nail to break into her parents room. Her father soon asked the police to stop the investigation, but from then on would place the key to his room on the mantel in front of Lizzy, from Bridgette's testimony. It's really a great read, and I've read them all.
The 'shoplifting' has no basis in fact. The truth was that neither Lizzie or Emma were ever accepted members of the upper class in Fall River. They weren't deliberately ostracized, they just weren't in that social circle that those on The Hill were.You've heard of "the 6 families" (or similar concept)? The leading families of a city? Borden was one of them, but a different branch of the family was really rich. Durfee is also one.
The pigeon story is unclear. No real indication they were Lizzie's, most people had them at the time. If Andrew killed them all, it was most likely because they were ill and dying. It's one of those stories that grow out of a tragedy, meaning and intent distorted in order to help explain why, ya know?
Just purchased the book!
I agree, regarding Mrs. Lincoln’s book.
i was really wondering about her father and now i know i was right. those poor girls. and her step mother was complicit in this, although in those times, women really couldn't do much. she could have supported the girls more though. let them know how upset she was at his treatment of them. i'm sure it would have helped a lot. (comes from personal experience.)
Deadly Squirrel m
Excellent assessment! - As a former Homicide Detective, I've "Armchair-ed" the Lizzie Borden case many, many times - and over the past 20 years I've read at least 4 full books on the case - as well as numerous articles - and although there are several sides, theories, etc.. I feel that Lizzie had nothing to do with her Father and Stepmother's grisly murders. No idea who did - (although some interesting potential suspects) - but it wasn't Lizzie...
Lizzis is the only one who could have done it, She was completely capable of it driven by money and emotion hatred.
Who else would have motive and be in the house? It's the money, nothing else.
I hope to God you never investigated any murders. If you did there are a lot of killers walking free and victims without justice.
As far as Lizzie showing no emotion, we need to remember that (despite what we see in movies) people of high social status were taught not to show emotion. That showing emotion, hysterics, sobbing, etc. was for the "lower" classes. Lizzie was keeping a "stiff upper lip" just as she had been taught.
I just learned of this channel. Very interesting presentation, Dr. Grande!---I'd like to share some of my own thoughts about this case. (Some may have been mentioned below.) 1) I've seen the coroner's photos and I think it's possible Mrs. Borden could have fallen to the floor without much sound: Women wore a lot of clothing then and the layers of material provided sound-absorbing padding. I don't recall if there was a rug rather than bare floor boards, something else to absorb sound. Mrs. Borden also was in an kneeling or bowing down position so may not have fallen straight down with all of her weight at once. Also the Borden house looks rather large to me. I think it's possible for something to happen to Mrs. Borden without it being heard above or below in the possibly brief time it took for the murder to happen. 2) I've heard the house has no hallways because Mr. Borden thought them a waste of space so maybe the walls and doors also kept sound from extending far. 3) One documentary I saw mentioned an odd inheritance law concerning widows: if Mrs. Borden died second, her family would have received a big portion of Mr. Borden's estate. There would have been lot less for Lizzie and Emma to inherit. 4) I've heard that shortly before six members of the DeFeo family were killed in the famous Amityville murders in 1975, Mrs. DeFeo had said "something terrible" was going to happen, much like Lizzie had said many years earlier. 5) I once had a really awful roommate I wish I could tell you about. He was sadistic and I consider him capable of doing a lot. It would be interesting to get your thoughts on HIM!
The Borden’s house didn’t have hallways because that was a common thing in Victorian era houses. Each room opens into the next
My family owned a house built in 1865. It had wide spacious hallways with bedrooms opening on to it
The house had originally been a double - one home up and one home down
Second time you’ve posted when I’m supposed to be working on my social psych paper. It can wait another day. This is a sign 😂
Exactly, it's a sign that you are prone to procrastination.
😂😂😂💜
Marc Eichelsheim only during quarantine 😂 before that I always worked way ahead. It’ll get done. Eventually lol
@@MorganBF1 I'm sure you don't overestimate ýour ability to get the job dunn.
hahaha
Marc Eichelsheim 💀💀💀
Just an FYI -- the house is now a B&B. I toured it with a friend from Korea while on a road trip, and we could have stayed there if Hee Kyung hadn't decided that the house was too stuffy to be comfortable in the summer. (Since she's Korean, the idea of staying in the Lizzie Borden House didn't have any specific appeal to her.) It's very much worth a detour if you're traveling in the area.
the new england area is surprisingly interesting for those interested in true crime .... h.h holmes was born in new hampshire, i think there's an exhibit in the building he was born / raised in. if you're ever in the area again, definitely check it out
My husband and I stayed the night back in 2010. Had the entire house to ourselves, slept in the room where Abby was killed. If I rolled on my right side and looked down, that was the spot where her body was found. The house is fairly large, has a front, side, and back entrances. I came to realize how noisy it would have been on a busy weekday morning with the windows open due to the heat and the road with horses and carts, etc right out front. The autopsies were done on the dining room table, Lizzie and Alice and I believe the uncle as well as Maggie the maid remained in the house. So I imagine that the only one who might have gotten any rest that night would have been Lizzie, since only she would have known there's no murderer lurking about(?). The night before we stayed some Ghost Story show had filmed there, and the hosts told us of how many 'ghostly occurrences' were staged.
@@lynnmartz8739
On one of my visits (I've been more than once, it's a popular choice when family and friends visit, for some reason), the guid referred to go into the farthest nedroom back (Emma's?)...said she never felt comfortable in there...
Yes my hubby and I stayed 2 nights. One in the murder room and one in Lizzie's. Lots of reading material there. Books, case notes and trial news.
I went once to tour the home. It was very creepy! Not much has changed since 1892.
Dr. Grande, I read that Andrew Borden had talked about helping Abby's family financially, and that it caused Lizzie to be jealous.
I also believe that Lizzie resented having to live with no electricity and no indoor bathroom, even though Andrew Borden could certainly afford those amenities.
I so enjoy listening to you, sir! Thanks for your hard work.
I always thought Lizzie, her sister and the maid were in on it together. As far as I’m aware there is little to no evidence of her sisters whereabouts during the murders. I would really like to see the timeline of when she left to visit friends and returned and any absences that may have been witnessed while she was there. I think it is possible that Lizzies sister committed the murder with Lizzie and the maids help. It would explain why they supposedly heard nothing and there was no blood on Lizzie. Was there time for Lizzies sister to return, commit the murders, clean up and change clothes at another location and then return to the friends house? I wonder why they never investigated her sister further?
I read one book that made a convincing case for a conspiracy just as you describe.
but didnt the maid value her job?
@@sticksbass the maid could have been bribed and paid a lot of money for her silence.
This was exceptional. I have studied this case and your grasp of the important details is thorough. However, I believe there was some question about whether Lizzie's alleged attempted purchase of prussic acid actually took place.
Julie McNeely-Kirwan there was inquest testimony where she admitted to trying to buy the Prussic acid but for the purpose of cleaning a stained dress
D S
She’s not disagreeing with anything you stated . She just simply stated that it is rumored that didn’t happen . She didn’t go try to buy it . ???
strawberryseason
Yea we all heard the video , but other documents state this isn’t true . That’s the point here
I can't remember the trial transcript (which is available) but I have to check because if the pharmacy clerk had been put on the stand that would have proved it to be true.
Or, lizzie got an outsider to kill them.
Anybody else squeal for joy when you see a new Dr Grande ? 🤗yeaaaaaay
Squeal....???
@@nocilantro_gack Squeal, as in a stuck hog.
No. Weirdo.
I too am a squealing weirdo @curtis7599
I've always been able to be extremely calm in high stress situations. I had no idea that could be a bad thing! When I was in the military it was part of our training.
Unboxing videos can get millions of views but Dr. Grande hundreds of thousands, he deserves way more attention!
Dear Dr. Grande, Peace. Thank you for the video. I found it fascinating, but I have one caveat you failed to mention. There was another axe murderer operating in the same area at the same time. His name was Jose Correa deMello, and all the murders were very similar. It was believed he couldn't have committed the Borden murders because he was out-of-town, but dates and times were not accurately kept then. It's just food for thought.
This depiction is so much better than the movie "Lizzie." I absolutely love criminal profiling, and writing forensic reports.. Dr. Grande I appreciate what you bring to this platform! Thank you
I love your material and your humor...subtle and awesome! I just finished my doctorate and your SPSS videos saved me!!! Thank you!💜
This was so interesting. Also I always thought the morphine played a role in the so called " lack of feeling" etc. She was essentially toddling betwesedation and impairment.
Andrew, Lizze and her sister are distant cousins of mine. Ever since learning that, I've been fascinated by this case. This case has been so mishandled in every way possible. I really appreciate your input on the case, thanks Dr Todd!
Same here. I believe the Mrs. Brownell (my mother's name) that the sister was visiting wasn't just a friend but a cousin.
Fascinating story! July of 2021, I was on my annual road trip from Illinois to the East Coast I had to stop in Fall River, MA to tour the Lizzy Borden House. During the tour, we were told that most likely Lizzy was guilty. It is speculated that Lizzy did this out of severe desperation. Had her stepmother out lived her father, she and her sister would eventually end up poor and living in despair, as their stepmother didn't care for them very much. As for her mental capacity during the trial, certain professional figures made sure she was well sedated as to not be capable of delivering a competent defense. It is rumored that others were aware of the horrible living conditions and strict conditions Mr. Borden made for his two daughters. There were certain townspeople were actually trying to protect Lizzy, and it worked. Another interesting fact, the ever so popular nursery rhyme "Lizzy Borden took an axe, and gave her mother forty whacks and gave her father forty-one" was just for rhyming affects. The mother suffered 18 whacks and her father suffered 11 whacks. It is plain to see who she disliked the most.
Why do people keep misspelling her name? It’s right in the title of the video. Lizzie, not Lizzy.
I think Lizzie saw what she did as self defence.
I'm really loving these true crime analysis videos lately!
Hi Dr Grande,
Excellent choice in subject! It’s so difficult to judge the case with today’s eyes!
A women’s life was SO different in those days, societal constraints on women left them next to no options in what their life was going to be. Women usually married by their late teens, and arraigned marriages were common place. It’s very shocking in those days that a woman didn’t marry, let alone two sisters. That was VERY unusual. I believe that ALONE would’ve made her suspect.
As for her behavior and emotional state, women were expected to be seen and not heard. She would’ve been raised to be in control of emotional outbursts. Women in the upper class would’ve been schooled in proper etiquette, and wouldn’t have broke away from that as it wasn’t accepted. The very fact the police were shocked she didn’t “faint” was proof of what people expected from women.
If this happened today, I believe she would’ve been convicted.
The theory I believe is most plausible, if your stand is she was guilty is this. In cases if child abuse, sexual molestation and incestual
Oops, hit send lol. To continue with the abuse theory. Had she been victimized by her father with molestation, she EASILY could’ve harbored deep seated hate for him, and if both sisters were in fact sexually abused by Mr. Borden, they both would’ve had hate for him.
Being they lived together, it’s not far fetched to think this was the case, Mrs Borden was aware of the abuse and turned a blind eye.
Divorce was NOT common. Certainly not in the upper class. Mrs Borden would’ve been better off TO TURN A BLIND EYE! Remarrying at her advanced age probably wouldn’t happen, certainly not with a bad reputation, which a divorce would’ve given her.
If this was the case, both sisters would’ve had deep seated hate for both Mr and Mrs Borden. Society was not as it is today. NO ONE publicly accused parents of sexual abuse! Especially the upper class!
This theory of sexual abuse is the most plausible. The sisters could’ve planned for months. Even if it was Lizzie alone that was abused, she could’ve planned for months, even years! I find it highly suspect that Mr. Borden DIDN’T marry the sisters off. That wasn’t a good thing for his reputation. And all reports were that although the Bordens were extremely wealthy they WERE NOT accepted or popular with their peers. He was a miser and didn’t live like the rest of their peers. He WAS considered an oddball!
As for the evidence and the murders themselves, I think it’s entirely possible she did it. She had plenty of time to dispose of evidence. Unlike those days, we know a women easily possesses the strength to kill. The manner of both deaths was certainly persons and rage driven. It was overkill!
And if she harbored hate for years, a surprise attack with a hatchet would’ve been easy. Mr Borden was napping. Not hard to kill then. Mrs Borden maybe had her back turned, how could she defeat sneak attack with a hatchet!
Investigators today have said Lizzie may NOT have been covered in blood, and there’s been experiments done by blood spatter specialists proving this.
I believe this theory answers all
of the questions surrounding this case. By virtue of the times this wasn’t even thought of let alone brought up!
Thanks Dr Grande, this was an excellent choice and your thoughts on Lizzie are very interesting!
Best Wishes to you and yours!
@@erust9465 I totally agree. Those gruesome pics show that Andrew's face was essentially obliterated. A LOT of rage.
I've never believed for sure that he molested her. I'd need more evidence.
Dr put her on morphine immediately after crime discovered as he & neighbor lady described her as distraught. At trial she DID faint. My mom & I took tranquilizers to get us thru my dad's funeral. We may have appeared calm & unemotional. My bestie was on tranquilizers after her young hubby killed. People grumbled she didnt cry at funeral -- what did they know? 50 years later still tending his grave & involved with his family. I was in shock when my husband died in front of me from massive heart attack. I didnt swoon or weep uncontrollably. Shock. I am not quick or eager to judge Lizzie's guilt based on her behavior after the loss of both parents.
The inheritance money that Lizzy and her sister got back then would be equal to 10 million dollars in today's money.
Lizzie DID IT!!! She had been the only other person in the house when her stepmother was murdered, AND when someone killed her father!
Hey! It was summer, and hot - even hot inside
the home - and, some biographies have pointed out, she was having her period that day. Her sister was at a neighbor's house, visiting. She
hated her stepmother, and may have hated her father for remarrying after her mother passed away. Plus, she had plenty of time to wash any
blood from her body and clothing - or to burn
the dress(!) - before calling the police to report
the incident. Also, violence was unusual in that
era. The only other option would be perhaps an ex-employee of her father's, who carried a grudge because Lizzie's father was notoriously stingy and had a reputation as a cheapskate!
It sounds to me that when you put all the factors together, it appears that she WAS the
killer - but we'll never know for sure!!
Excellent motive!
@@nancyayers6355 ...I don't think she had much time at all, police said her fathers blood was wet, not enough time to dry. Plus she burned the dress in front of witnesses.. What bugs me is there are so many different accounts by different people as to what happened and when in the timeline.. But ya, we will never know for sure, other than a terrible, dynamic, violent thing happened that day. [Not just superheroes wore capes back then] lol
@@rullmourn1142 check that. Sister said she burned the dress, according to same Dateline.
Yet the dad was so cheap they didn’t have indoor plumbing like their neighbors
When Lizzie yelled to Bridgette that her Father had been killed, she said that "Someone had come in" and murdered her Father. This seams to me to be an attempt to divert blame away from herself. Why wouldn't she say Fathers been murdered or someone murdered Father instead of "someone came in and murdered Father". I feel the murder was a spur of the moment one and not planned ahead, although her feeling that something bad was going to happen could have been her realizing that she was near her breaking point.
I agree there was reasonable doubt. I’ve always wondered what happened to the servant afterwards and whether she received a windfall from somewhere. Thanks Dr G!
Brigitte moved West to Anaconda, Montana afterwards. I went there and went to her resting place. She married a man with the last name Sullivan but never had children. She was only ever involved in her husband's side of the family.
Elizabeth Montgomery, who played Lizzie in the movie, is related to her!
They were 6th cousins once removed so I think they shared a great x5 grandparent
EXCITING!!!
They are both dead now too.
Correct!
I see the resemblance!
Couldn’t she have hired someone to do it? Many female murderers do that. That would explain a lot. She could have been aware and witnessed it all, but avoided the blood spatter, and of course the goal was financial independence from a perceived tyrannical life in a different era where spinsterhood seemed her future. Maybe her dad forbade her from marrying? Maybe she tried to secure the acid for poisoning first and when that failed had a lover or someone kill those she resented the most? I’ve seen “Snapped”, it seems to happen a lot.
Uncle John coming to stay the day before with no bags or change of clothes is v suspish. He had money problems. Abby was dusting the guest room he was staying in when attacked....
Sometimes if you want it done well, you have to do it yourself 😶
@Amira T. - Perceived?
Where would she get the money to hire someone?? Her father controlled the family finances.
@@rucianapollard4057 she might’ve had a friend give her some money for it..
This is an amazing mystery that still leaves people scratching their heads to this day. That said, I can't escape the feeling that their is some missing information, evidence if you will, that is not in the record. What would have made sense of all of this? Thanks for the video. Appreciated.
I'm really surprised you didn't mention the well known suspicion that Lizzie was sexually molested by her father. They even refer to it during tours of the Lizzie Borden house. That certainly explains the rage.
Just because people suspect that doesnt make it true. There is no evidence of it
There’s absolutely no evidence to support that whatsoever.
@@TheGoldbaxterand where exactly would the evidence come from? It's not out of the realm of possibility at all. And given the behavior of the sisters, abuse of some kind can absolutely be suspected.
This case has always made me feel sick to my stomach! There is something that feels very unnatural about the relationships between the father and the people living in the home !!! 😢.
I look forward to everything you post - even if it’s something I may already be familiar with (true crime addict so I know all about Borden) but I still watch it because I really respect how you always back things with science.
22:49 Lizzie Borden’s appearance [irregardless of guilt or innocence] post an horrific double murder: "The reports indicated that her _HAIR_ wasn’t even disheveled!"
Me [in response] immediately assessing my *OWN* reflection in a mirror, _4 WHOLE WEEKS_ into social-distancing/COVID-19 pandemic-panic lockdown: *OH DEAR GOD!!!😬NOOO!😳* But still, I _DEFINITELY_ haven’t been suspected of committing a murder... *YET!*
Yeah, well, consider yourself lucky. I have to go to work every day, face the world, with my hair like that.
Irregardless is a double negative. The words is REGARDLESS.
Being that Abby Durfee Grey was a maternal cousin of mine I've always been fascinated with this case.
I always felt so bad for poor Abby, she seemed to be a good person but the Borden "girls" never gave her a chance.
My great grandmother was Sarah Morse's cousin. My mom is the first to have not been born in Massachusetts. I would like to visit there soon.
I am not an expert but I recall doing research on Lizzie Borden for a presentation years ago and reading biographies about her. I felt she was quite the enigma.
And if Lizzie didn’t do it, who did?
Some unknown person entered the house and made it up the stairs and killed Abby without being seen or heard? And then managed to stay in the house or leave and come back and kill Mr. Borden without being seen or heard?
I find the scenario of an outsider being the murderer very difficult to believe.
Exactly. The very same things that appear to exonerate Lizzie also would appear to exonerate everyone else. Does that mean the murders never happened?!
Unless Lizzie allowed the intruder in to commit the murders
If you read other books on her, there is some speculation that Emma did it, and Lizzie was covering up for her. Apparently Andrew Borden was abusive as well.
If she did not do it, she knew who did and helped plan it in my opinion.
I always felt she had help. I think Emma helped for sure. They fell out after Lizzie's trial and never spoke again.
@@MzShonuff123 I never thought Emma was in on it, but I thought the maid was. I think Lizzie promised her money to keep her silence.
What about the bastard son who was estranged from the father?
Emma wasn't in town the day of the murders
@@sueboyd9345 Never existed.
This is one of the most interesting analyses I have seen on Lizzie Borden, and although I am not particularly able to judge whether or not this is a valid analysis, it seems like it to me. You are so interesting to listen to, and I thoroughly enjoy your videos. Just about to subscribe!
I have been interested in the Lizzie Borden case for 20 years plus...and have watched numerous documentaries and read many articles..books etc...this is the first time that I have really thought about and focused on Lizzie's extract words...when you stayed them out loud..it really made me think.... I believe most people (especially if they were innocent of the crime)....esp a young women in that time..woukd have been so shocked and in such disbelief of what had occured...would be screaming...crying..and carrying on a great deal...and in total shock...and would not have been so calm...and to make comments as...."come quick...father is dead..someone came in and killed him".....I have always thought she was most likely quilty..but those exact words..for sure...make me have no doubts.. If you really thought "some stranger" came in "broke in"...what ever..any rational person....would be running out of the house screaming for help..as well as would be in fear of their own life...assuming she had no knowledge of whether the "killer" was still in the house or not!
Excellent point, would any sane person hang around a house where a bloody murder (literally!) had just occurred? Why wasn't she terrified and running for the neighbors?
@@Tawroset thank u
@@SnowBall-hz6pu You're very welcome. In fact some people have used this as one argument in favor of Lizzie's guilt--only the murderer would have known that staying in the house at that time was perfectly safe with no killer lurking about. Of course maybe she was in shock, or foolhardy, or insanely courageous--but it does look suspicious!
@@Tawroset agree!!
@@SnowBall-hz6pu :-)
At 5:15 you mention that the police describe Abby as being calm. I think you meant Lizzie was calm. Abby was dead. I guess that is as calm as you can get. But otherwise, I enjoyed your presentation. I was just telling my husband that we need to go stay at the Lizzie Borden B&B. Weirdly enough, he had never heard about the murders and did not know who Lizzie Borden was!
I noticed that too!
I notice in a lot of his videos he tend to make simple errors in the case.
@@christiansamaroo Maybe he does that to see if we're really listening to the whole presentation. I caught that one and a few minor errors on other of his vids too.
@@ToniHunterOne I was thinking the same thing. I caught errors in other videos
Did anyone do a spiritual cleansing of that house after Lizzie whacked her parents ? There would be bad energy in that house. The court should have smoked her butt. She killed her parents for the cash.
I lived in Fall River for the first 18yrs of my life, so I thought it was cool that you were doing this video. I don't think Lizzy completed to act of murder, but I do believe her sister and a man (not 100% sure that it was the Uncle) planned it and carried it out, involving Lizzy only so she would be the scapegoat. The fact that the police didn't really investigate or gather evidence right away allows for too many unknowns to really know for sure though.
I believe it is entirely possible that John Morse came into town unannounced to talk Andrew out of changing his will as there was talk that he was leaving his wealth to Abby and her family as opposed to his daughters. They never found a new will however one of the officers made note of a roll of papers burner in the kitchen stove.
I would love a video on Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka.
Yes! I agree!
Yes! Especially Holmolka!
Canadian serial killers. I wonder if they're boring and dull as well.
SvenStadt excuse me?
Whoa totally forgot about that case. I would enjoy an analysis!
One thing puzzles me: why have I never heard anyone analyze the movements of the uncle who came to visit? Could he have been familiar enough with the household to have come back and either waited between deeds or left and come back again to do the second? Could Lizzie and Bridget have known something? If Lizzie was the murderer, why exonerate Sullivan like that, when she might have made a convenient scapegoat? There are a lot of possibilities here; I guess that's why we're all still talking about it. Thanks for another interesting video.
It wouldn't have been the Uncle because he wouldn't have bludgeoned an elderly couple that way. The murders were entirely personal and carried out in such a way that the murderers emotions would have been competely spent. The murderer would have been calm after the initial excitement, if you will.
Please do Typhoid Mary next!!!! It’s so pertinent to what’s going on right now with covid-19.
Bryan Velasco : why ? Mary was not mentally ill, She had a great deal of trouble understanding and believing she was a symptomatic and viewing the time element and understanding of viruses back then it is self explanatory.
That would be interesting!
I love how analytical and objective your videos are. This video was great and turned me from a normal fan into a big fan
I love the combination of history and true crime so much! In my opinion, the most likely theory is that Lizzie Borden got away with murder, but I also think that Maggy helped her with her testamony. Also, how would Lizzy have been able to put on a dress without help that quick? And why did Maggy not hear the brutal murder of Andrew although she hears anything else all the time. This was a brutal crime, it was for sure anything but silent...
I also covered this case and it is so fascinating even after all these years :)
The maid's name was Bridget, not Maggie. Lizzie called her Maggie because that was their previous maid's name and Lizzie thought that since Bridget was beneath her, she need not call her by her correct name.
Good thing the entire story is fictional, simple American folklore.
God, this case has been analyzed 1000’s of times for a very long time! It’s crazy that people still talk about it!
It's because there was lack of hard evidence which could have pointed out to Lizzie's part in the murders. Lizzie's appearance after the violent events was inconsistent to what one would expect the state of her if she was supposed to have bludgeoned her stepmother & father - no signs of blood on her face, hair & dress. Even her hairstyle wasn't in a disarray either and the very short timeline between Andrew Borden's arrival back to the house & his subsequent bloody death which meant Lizzie wouldn't have had the chance to clean herself up so quickly before shouting for Bridget to come downstairs after the discovery of her father's lifeless body.
In his book, The Cases That Haunt Us, FBI profiler John Douglas does a psychological profile of the killer, looks at the circumstances of the case and concludes...Lizzie done it. Your take on the case is interesting as well. It was believed at the time that the jurors thought she did it but sympathized with her because her father was an unusually awful and abusive man and he had recently threatened to disinherit Lizzie and leave everything to his wife.
Petition to bring capes back to everyday fashion 🙋🏻♀️🙋🏻♀️
But also i always thought that she had done it but hearing your take on it makes me think differently 🤔 (welp I should have finished the video before commenting to find that you agree that she did it 🤣)
Kimberly P
Just no seal skin capes. I’m here for it!
@@breedlejuice8691 oh for sure no seal skin!
NO CAPES!!! Edna E. Mode is infallible! ;-D
I have a beautiful rich blue hooded cape made of wool felt. I love it! And, get compliments on it whenever I wear it. I don't care if they are not in fashion either. :D
I actually own THREE capes! No Seal Skin, Dang! They somehow dress up an outfit instantly. BTW, I'm sure she did it.
Another great analysis. I stayed at the Lizzie Borden house. It's a b&b now. Me and my wife were left alone when the kid went McDonalds. The owner showed up. He bought the house for a toy for his wife. Uber rich. I asked him how he got to the same color when all the pictures were in black and white. He said we had him scrape the house down to first color. Then we saw it. It was olive green. Then he had the house painted. He also says he constructed furniture to match. I can honestly say I was in the Lizzie Borden house with just me and my wife. We got there in August. My wife took full advantage of the shower that they installed. We slept in Lizzie's room the first night and then the murder room the second night. It wasn't a big house but there were no hallways. For breakfast they served us Johnny cakes. same menu that Lizzy had the day of the murder. Then we went to the vineyard to see the Chapaquitic bridge (spelling incorrect) ironically the couple that watched our kids that weekend, he was my best friend. He asked where we were going. I said to the Borden house in Fall River. He said that his mother was related to her. I asked what her maiden name was. he said Borden. She came from Boston. The bordens are known in New England. There is a million Bordens out there. My wife made me go there to expunge the fear I had of looking under a bed at any time.
He!en keller er scene in,,in 28 days
@@ratscabies38 --- ?????
It was a hot day and people questioned Lizzy’s story about being in the loft of the barn. No one seemed to question the fact that Ms. Sullivan was napping on the third floor in that heat?
Yes! And , if you can find the famous picture of Andrew Borden lying on the sofa after his murder he is wearing pretty heavy clothing for such a hot day-he had to be properly attired no matter the weather-part of being respectable
Missed that. I thought she was dusting or something
Hi. It wasn't hot that day. The heatwave, was the week before. ( you can look it up )
@@elavke5441 Actually she was "Cleaning the windows"!
lol I thought about that too. Remember that just before that Abby had her out side washing all the windows. It might have been a little cooler in the house. also, she had probably been up since 5 or 6 am at the latest getting water, making breakfast and all her other morning chores. I often wonder how *anyone* slept without air conditioning back then!
I clicked so fast when i saw this notification,im very intrigued by this story
Thanks, Dr. Grande, always found that case intriguing, would have loved to have been a fly on the wall. With today’s forensics, I feel certain the case would have been MUCH more definitive, guess we’ll never know now. Stay well! 😊
Fun fact: this is one of the 1st cases in American history where photographs were used as evidence
The "spinster" life was often most chosen by those who were lesbian (not all). One had to marry within one's own social class too. Lots of rules there. I think it is safe to say, she did it. I think it is safe to say, it was done with her sister's understanding and support. I think the maid may very well have known exactly what was happening. .. who said "not my business here" simply because she'd have been worked to death and paid very little by Andrew & Abby. She'd have had to play a low profile since her re-employment elsewhere would have depended on her discretion in this case. People during this time didn't like publicity in any form. When it was about servants or women doubly so. Just having a minor involvement would have been a determent to her being re-employed. Lizzy's involvement in any form guilty or not would have ostracized her and resulted in being a spinster for life...Emma too. They had nothing to lose and everything to gain by these murders. I think there was plenty of guilt to go around.
Later in life, Lizzie had a major infatuation with an actress Nance O'Neil.
According to most accounts Bridgette Sullivan left the house the day of the murders and never came back.
Andrew apparently tly turned away a few suitors because he decided they were after his money. He condemned his daughters to spinsterhood. Brigitte moved to Anaconda, Montana where she married a man with the same last name. I met Bridgitte's husband's niece's sons wife. The niece's son was a Police officer killed in the line of duty. Also, Lucille Ball lived in Anaconda, Montana for a short time when she was a young child. Some of her relatives still live there.
'Parasitic lifestyle'? In her social class, it was quite normal for one or more daughters to remain spinsters and act as housekeepers and carers for their elderly parents, instead of marrying, or becoming nuns (if they were Roman Catholics). Leaving home and having a career, and possibly affairs, like the heroine of Tales of San Francisco, was just not an option.
Both daughters never married and that is unusual.
“Capes” meant something different back then. What we know today as wraps and women’s coats were known as “capes” at the time.
Well its still very different from what today is called a womens coat.
I’d be fascinated to hear your thoughts on Jack the Ripper, Dr. Grande! Obviously it’s hard to do a full analysis given the perpetrator wasn’t caught, but even so, I’d be very interested to hear if you have any opinions on the case.
They solved the case last year. There was no hype about it because of who it turned out to be. They belong to a group that is not allowed to be criticized.
MissDarleneRae
I mean, they can’t be 100% sure but the guy prolly did it. I feel like it was a meme? I remember seeing it. People were saying, “finally, we can get that guy behind bars.”
@@breedlejuice8691 They did forensic/DNA testing so they're pretty sure. The guy (Aaron Kosminski, a 23-year-old Polish barber) was the prime suspect at the time so no big shocking twist.
I saw a recent doc about Jack The Ripper and they mentioned a whole new suspect. L
She lied about where Abbey went...hmmm. Too bad DNA tools and blood/fluid sensing lights weren't available yet.
Right!
Fun fact: this is one of the 1st crime scenes in America where photographs were used as evidence. The photographs are (or copies of them are) displayed in the parlor, you can see them when you do the tour
I saw a documentary on Lizzie Borden once where they used luminol on the walls in the basement, and found blood stains that had seeped down from where the sofa was where Andrew was murdered. Also found some other blood stains in the basement.
Wish I could remember the name of the program.
@@julienielsen3746 I saw that too and can't remember who did it.
@@julienielsen3746 Julie, if I'm not mistaken, the program you're referring to is "Lizzie Borden Had an Axe" on the Discovery Channel in 2004. Tom Lange, one of the O.J. Simpson case detectives, was one of the hosts . I remember the luminol stains in the basement were creepy as hell. What's REALLY scary is how time flies, I can't believe it was 16 years ago when it aired.
The PCL-R is such a great tool. Thank you! Was used as the primary intake tool for sex offenders moving from DOC to " treatment " program where I worked for years. Most scored in high 20's, low 30's. A couple who were murderers as well scored at the top. Have always wondered if Lizzie was sexually abused by her father though.
So grateful for your time. Your incredible! So glad I found this channel. Keep up the good work!
Interesting analysis! One fact that was not mentioned was that Andrew Borden had gifted Abby’s relation with a home and both Lizzie and Emma were very resentful for the generosity of their father to Abby’s family. Why would a child of two-Lizzie’s age when her father remarried-not bond with a surrogate mother figure? This most basic developmental need being rejected by Lizzie is highly suspect...? Everyone is affected when a person shows more attention and caring about their bank balance than the humans in their life and sporadic bouts of generosity do not negate the daily deprivations of the most basic needs and the resulting social embarrassment. I definitely think she did it: motive AND opportunity! Thank you, Dr. G!
I wonder if Emma strongly influenced Lizzie against her stepmother? Emma had been raised by her loving mother and was near 12 when her mother died. She had swirn/ promised to look after her baby sister & could have seen the stepmother, who came along when Emma was a grown 14, as an interloper, a rival to het mother, wanting baby sister Lizzie to be loyal to their mother & not love Abby, despite Abby's efforts to win over both girls. If Lizzie disliked & resented Abby, how much of that was Emma's doing???
I am so impressed with how fair you always are... it amazes me! Love your videos!
It would be interesting to know, has anyone gone to the house and tried a recreation of the murders, to see how the sound traveled and how long it would have taken Lizzie to have changed her cloths (getting someone who is familiar with clothing of that period).
In the movie that Elizabeth Montgomery played Lizzie, she removed all clothing before killing them. I think that's very likely. She probably had her hair covered.
@@traumajock You have to remember how long those clothes would take to put on though
It is possible that she removed her bloody clothing and hid it under another dress hanging in her closet. The police only did a very short, cursory search of her closet.
Also, the dress she was wearing that day was one of two “wrappers” , a type of casual house dress, that her dressmaker made for her. Apparently she favored the color blue as both dresses were that color
Both dresses buttoned up the front so she could have removed it herself. If her underclothing was blood stained after Abbey’s murder she had plenty of time to remove it, change and hide it. However, she had very little time after Andrew’s murder, either to change her clothing and wash herself. There was one small blood spot found on her petticoat. Lizzie referred to this blood spot as a “flea bite“ which was a euphemism for menstrual blood in that era. I’m inclined to think that she did it based on her behavior afterwards. Burning her dress, burning the copy of her father’s will (did he change it in favor of Abby?”.
This was interesting. The chess grandmaster Bobby Fischer would be an excellent subject for a video.
Autism ?
So would Betty Broderick.
@Haha Porter V If you are talking about Bobby Fischer he did not get arrested for playing chess. He was wanted because he traveled yo Yugoslavia in 1992 when it was illegal.
However, it might not be a bad idea to comment on him. He made anti-semantic remarks even though his mother was Jewish which would make him Jewish and he applauded the attack on the World Trade Center in 2001. I think he even was a member of a cult once.
Loved your analyses and comments. As a woman it is so hard for me to believe that any woman could complete such a grisly set of murders. I can't imagine a woman being able to do what she did! (or any person) But maybe after losing her pet pigeons in such a horrible way she was pushed over the edge? What would her motive have been? Freedom? Would she not have freedom when her parents passed without the guilt and horror of what she did? So many unknowns make it hard to believe. I think we don't know enough to ever have a feeling either way.... whoever did it was a tortured soul! So sad and scary! Thank you for an interesting video!
Lizzie must have felt desperate to hear from Uncle John that Andrew was changing his will and leaving his fortune to Abby and Abbys side of the family.
A very refreshing view of this case. Original content instead of rehashing the same ol' crap that everybody's heard a thousand times over.
What's another interesting connection is that James Fallon, who wrote The Psychopath Inside, in which he explores the genetic determinants of psychopathy (including his own), is related to Lizzie Borden.
i dont understand this sentence
risha a James Fallon is related to Lizzie Borden and he wrote the psychopath inside which about psychopath behavior genetics
Thank you for doing my request of Lizzy Borden Dr, Grande. I don't think Lizzy is guilty, but, then again, i just don't want her to be You are right, this case does ride on a razors edge, thanks for the quote. I'm stealing it....lol
I was able to visit the borden residence for school
I think it's fun that a lot of teachers in the area let students do their reports on this!
A few additions: Lizzie was the only person with access and opportunity to linger unseen for an hour and a half. She was the only person with access who had a significant financial motive, control over half of the money, and her older mother/ sister was highly suggestible, giving up a larger bedroom twice. No one looked at the easily washable metal sad irons, 6# metal irons that Lizzie stated that she was using that day. How much effort would it take to quickly, quietly disable an adult with head wound from a lifted 6# pointed iron? Lizzie would have had to have heard Abby's body fall upstairs, if Lizzie had been innocent. Andrew's top coat and the wall would have blocked most blood. Would a woman with two sad iron double-handed hits to the left side of the head spin and fall or run to crawl under the bed? Knowing how long it took to undress/redress in the period attire, makes me wonder if Lizzie wrapped unused menstrual rags around her forearms or as an apron. These were found later in the basement. We know she burnt a dress that already had "paint" on it. The sick friend note Lizzie said Abby received was never identified. We know, years before, Emma left school early to return to her mother role with Lizzie, and Lizzie may have been influenced to hate Abby and steal from her.
The upper room Abby was in would have been warmer and drier allowing the blood to dry faster. The investigator at the time didn’t use modern forensic science to prove the time line, it was a guess
I think she did it too. Come on. I think it’s interesting, too, that people think because they didn’t have modern forensic science in those days, that they were keystone cops or something. People weren’t stupid then. . I guess everybody was innocent back then. 🤷♀️ ESPECIALLY a woman. Gosh golly gee they couldn’t possibly kill anyone 🙄
@@aslmad1Well, I guess if you see enough dead bodies. And don’t forget people did their own butchering back then a lot of the time, or CERTAINLY would have grown up with it, to have a reasonable life experience to have an educated guess to know about blood drying. Even without that, there WAS fundamental police science. No, it wasn’t CSI. But CSI isn’t CSI. And blood is blood, animal or otherwise.
If you stumble upon someone freshly killed in your house, you’re gonna run outside for fear that you are next. Unless you are the killer.