Were Orcs Redeemable? Middle-earth Explained & Building a World
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 เม.ย. 2024
- The redemption of Orcish folk in Tolkien’s Middle-earth is a complex moral topic, but certainly quite interesting, drawing upon Tolkien’s metaphysics and feelings of religion. Thank you all so much for watching, let me know your thoughts on this topic in the comments below! As always, a great thanks to the online artists whose visual works made this video possible! If you are one of the artists, please let me know and I will post your name and a link to your work in this description!
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The fact that Sam, when wearing the One Ring, learns that at least some orcs were afraid of the Nazgul is interesting to consider for this discussion.
Yes, good point. They also spoke of something like their comrades being brought before the eye, stripped of what they are down to their very "naked" being. What was that? Why would it fear being exposed to the will that drives them if it were the same will?
the orks are obviously unwilling servants of evil. not automatically evil in themselves
@@jakeoreilly9627
But just because they are unwilling to serve evil doesn't mean they aren't evil themselves. Maybe they merely wanted to do their evil deeds on their own, or raise up as a new dark lord or at least local warlord.
I'm sure some unfortunate little orc got too close to a nazgul and got EATEN. Their fear can be explained that way.
@@jakeoreilly9627. That ca be both unwilling servants and evil
As creatures of Morgoth, who was much more chaotic evil than the lawful evil Sauron, they might have easily chaffed under the yoke but been too powerless to do anything about it
Personally I do believe Orcs can be redeemed, but the circumstances for redemption are so exceptional that they could only come at the hands of Eru himself for it to occur on a wide scale.
Perhaps, in some far distant corner of the world, an Orc babe was found and taken in by a community. Raised with love, wisdom and compassion. Said Orc would still be quick to anger and introverted in nature, but having been raised with a proper sense of morality, be able to overcome their natural malevolence. A constant struggle to subdue their instincts and turn them towards good. Living as a hunter or a warrior, away from most people and in a place they can put their nature to use. But even then, they would constantly be struggling with a temptation beyond what elves and men could likely understand. As natural as a bird’s instinct to fly or a cat’s to pounce on mice. It would be an unpleasant existence for the Orc most likely, but one that could be considered moral. Living on a knife’s edge.
At least that’s how I see it.
Edit: To sum it up… technically yes, an Orc can be redeemed. But practically? No.
This is very much along my own thoughts on the subject!
That's saying that its in their nature to be evil which is a questionable notion...
@@genghisgalahad8465 maybe not evil, but perhaps a lesser malevolence? Simply an innate desire or urge for destruction and warlike activities, much like the Orks in 40K.
Not evil in the classic sense but very much predisposed to violence.
True evil requires awareness, thought and intention behind ones actions.
I'd argue that acting on instinct alone isn't really evil.
Is a tiger evil for brutally killing and eating other animals every day?
How self-aware are Tolkien's Orcs? How much of their nature is driven by conscious thought and desire to commit evil acts, and how much is innate instinct and just them existing the only way they are capable of?
"What is better: to be born good or to overcome your evil nature?"
This is hands down one of the hardest topics in Toilken’s legendarium.
I like how you discuss the ontological nature of orcs. From all accounts we have seen there is no desire for redemption within the orcs themselves, thus suggesting that they are corrupt to a point where any redemption would have to occur after bodily death. And even then it seems as though Eru does not force anyone to be redeemed, rather they can chose it when fate presents a chance (or chance we’ll spent) for redemption to them.
There is no option to be redeemed, they are Sauron’s troops or they are raiders living in caves in the mountains. Nobody has given them the option.
I think Frodo and Gollum actually shed a bit of light on the answer. Smeagol showed a hint of coming back before sinking to his lowest point, and Frodo technically failed the quest, being incapable of destroying the Ring. No one COULD willingly destroy the ring. But that inadvertently lead to its destruction, and Frodo despite failing was permitted to go to Valinor.
If it was too much for Frodo to destroy the ring without succumbing to it, maybe it's too much for the orcs to be redeemed. But with that conclusion, I think it opens the gateway for another question. Have we even been asking the RIGHT question? The question might not be "can they be redeemed" so much as "can they be forgiven?"
It's not so much that he "failed" in the eyes of the elves, its that he lead to the destruction of the Ring.
Good point. The Orcs can be forgiven, since they did not ask to be made into what they were. They are like rabid dogs, that you slay with regret, without hating them.
I agree. They must be redeemable in the end. Tolkien’s message was one of hope, and that is extended even to those who seem hopeless
Well, orcs have shown to have the capacity to feel loyalty, affection and even love. This can be seen by the orcs from the Misty Mountains that will travel miles in order to avenge their chieftains and comrades. Plus, it's not like the Elves and Men are the definition of goodness (Feanor, Maeglin, Ar-Pharazôn, Castamir, etc).
In my opinion you do not need affection and love to have revenge.
@@MachasDaughter
revenge without affection is a waste of time, why revenge if I don't care about the person?
@@Seer_Of_The_Woodlands Pride, ego. I don't have to love someone to use their death as motivation.
@@paulraines9635
maybe you but that such a large crowd. those are feelings too, of course, not good, but still, people experience the same
The question of the Orcs inevitably circles back to the Problem of Evil, great video
How so?
@@ho8464 By virtue of existing in Arda the orcs are necessarily a part of the Music of the Ainur. If so, why does Eru, who is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent allow them to exist? Why does God allow injustice and suffering?
@@bungalo50 Exactly. The Problem of Evil creates paradox that is in conflict with a fully rational universe. Fortunately, Tolkien's universe is a (wonderful) mythical contrivance within which we can surrender to bits of irrationality here and there for the sake of fantasy.
Then we have to wonder who else could be Redeemed --- Variags, Haradrim, Dunlendings ?
@@Raelspark I think so!
"Even Humans could be reduced to the level of Orcs in just a few generations"
👏👏👏
@@JAllanC12 I assume that you could do the same for people in the "Right" circumstances. + orc men are a thing, of course their birth is pretty disgusting....
of course, a completely different thing.
an interesting subject and world is what Tolkien left us
@@JAllanC12 Absolutely.
So true
@@Seer_Of_The_Woodlands Tell me about this birthing 🤣
I don't think it's important whether or not Orcs can be redeemed, the more important question is whether or not an accord could be struck with Orcs? Could there be peace between men and Orcs where Orcs do their thing in their own lands and leave men to do the same? Are Orcs capable of peace, because of Orcs are capable of peace, then irredeemablity becomes irrelevant.
I think that if they were capable of peace then that would make them redeemable.
We shall have peace when you answer for the...
The only way to do that would be to enslave the Orcs, transport them by sea to a distant uninhabited island or even continent, and then maroon them there. (Similar to how England transported convicts to Australia historically).
Since Orcs hate and fear water, they probably wouldn’t be able to build ships and sail back to Middle Earth (and if they tried, Ossë would probably whip up a storm and drown them at sea).
I think the only way that could be done is for Men to find a large uninhabited island, transport the Orcs there (probably in chains) in ships, and then maroon them there. Maybe there is in Arda a very distant large island like Australia, where Orcs could have their own land far away from Men.
Since Orcs are terrified of water, it’s very unlikely that they would build their own ships and sail back to the lands of Men. However, I think it’s likely that future Men would eventually covet the Orcs’ island, and conquer it for themselves, wiping out the Orcs in the process.
I'm not saying that all orcs can be saved, but whoever says that none of them could accept Salvation is inadvertently saying that Melkor was more powerful than Iluvatar. which is stronger: light or Melkor's corruption?
Great point.
@@melmartinez7002
thank you. have a nice day!
I'll take the advice of a certain anime hero on matters like this "The only good goblin are the ones that never crawl out of their holes." Super excited to see what new lore video you have planned next week.
Hypothetically, an Orc raised from "imp-hood" away from the rest of Orc-kind could possibly share the morals of their step-parent(s). But such a goblin would likely face a great deal of prejudice from other folk and they might still be subject to the Will of Sauron or (in the First Age) Morgoth. The best chance of success for such an experiment might be by conducting it in the Fourth Age, after the ultimate defeat of Sauron.
"It wasn't us! The Precious made us do it!"
Most fascinating subject.
I think we as humans have a strong impulse to save other beings so it's natural to want to, at least in thought save them. But time works against this; these creatures have been that way for literal thousands of years, whatever semblance of what they were was long gone by the 3rd age. Just looking at their physical/biological changes its impossible. Sensitivity to daylight, rotted flesh, black blood. That's the thing about evil it kills as much as it is required to kill itself
I just love how Men of the West always has like a good moral to say at the end of his videos
FWIW, the Lord of the Rings Online (LOTRO) universe has adopted the stance that at least some orc-kind (including goblins) are indeed 'redeemable'. Not only are there some interesting interactions with a particular goblin in the midst of the post-war Mordor story arc but also with orc-factions at odds with each other in Gundabad. And again, in the Umbar expansion this notion is taken even further with an orc community.
The notion that they are redeemable does raise ethical questions with the implied exterminations in the canon, but as a playable world, it makes things seem a bit more realistic because it rises from the practicalities of survival being imposed on them in a world without Morgoth or Sauron. Survival of a society of sentients requires development of some sort of rules of interaction - which become the 'morals' of that society. Sans a complete authoritarian voice dictating what is 'right', a society has to derive what is 'right' based on what actually works for their survival.
No one really knows, not even Tolkien himself
I like the fact that there were things he didn't know about his own creation.
It is because he knew that Arda was a real place.
Not even Morgoth knew
Hey MOTW, love the videos as usual, keep up the fantastic work! I have recently started to try to learn Tengwar english mode, wish me luck!
I thought it funny when I read in the book that the orcs believed "elfish devilry" was a thing, meaning the orcs apparently thought they were the good guys, and the one making plans for a quiet life of thieving when all the fighting was over. Now it seems rather sad.
Excellent question. And, if they were elves in nature, were they immortal and creatures doomed to the Halls of Mandos?
Excellent question and excellent video yoystan keep on rocking
(swishes back hair elegantly) I can change them!
Took me a second, but that's a good one! Lmao
Dont even think about it! xD
@@MrBigCookieCrumble 😂
ty for a great video
Embarking on a journey of storytelling and video experimentation. VideoGPT gracefully entered the scene, effortlessly adding a layer of professionalism to my content.
I always felt sorry for the orcs. To be corrupted and enslaved to the breaking point and becoming a mere shadow of what you used to be sounds utterly terrible. They were undoubtedly Melkor’s biggest victims.
The movies made them even less than what they were in the books. The dialogues between orcs show us they had their struggles, alliances, skills (medicine, weapons, machines, among other thins usually destined to nefarious purposes) and language variations. Some of them even wanted to leave.
Considering Tolkien’s catholic background and the augustinian tone of the books (evil as the absence of good rather that a thing in itself), it makes sense that the orcs, as corrupted beings distant from Eru, would end up destroyed (just like adam and eve fell and turned all humanity into sinners on the road to hell).
However, it also make sense that some kind of salvation would be available to them - they didn’t chose to become what they are and, even if they had, others have been forgiven and redeemed before (like the Noldor).
The fact the Tolkien didn’t develop the story of orcs is a big downer for me. I love LOTR, but I can’t shake the feeling that he took an easy way out not confronting this dilemma.
Then again, LOTR is supposed to be read as a “historical” text and history is told by the winners.
Excellent question! I wish the novels would have given us more scenes depicting orcs and their discussions and own view points
3:55 since they apparently were elves then wouldn't they be immortal and their spirits return to the halls if Mandos of killed?
I think you've just given the correct explanation. Their role, while Dark, was necessary. In order to have contrast, to have a choice i.e. free will, there needs to be a left hand along with a right. The Free Peoples needed something to test them, and something to push against to get stronger and grow.
Another way of saying this is that there can be no Courage without Fear. No Faith without a Challenge. The Orcs role was to be that Opposition, that Challenge. They were a Dark Mirror by which Men and Elves could measure themselves by contrast. Some of the best lessons we will ever learn about ourselves can only be taught to us when we engage our Enemies.
Long story short (too late 🙃)......You gave the right explanation in my very humble opinion. Great video.
Great video!
It is a very thought provoking question with no easy answer. I do think that their evil tendencies could be reduced over time with Sauron and Melkor defeated. It would take generations if at all. Orcs would have to learn to live in peace and realize that it is preferable to conflict. Sadly some men in our world today have failed to learn that lesson.
I don’t think under Morgoth or Sauron they were redeemable because their sole purpose was to serve the Dark Lords, however it’s completely possible that after a long time has passed after Sauron’s defeat they would be on a path to redemption as they were no longer bound to being soldiers for war and could form their own paths which don’t involve conflict.
About the Last Alliance:
From Imladris they crossed the Misty Mountains by many passes and marched down the River Anduin, and so came at last upon the host of Sauron on Dagorlad, the Battle Plain, which lies before the gate of the Black Land. All living things were divided in that day, and some of every kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save the Elves only. They alone were undivided and followed Gil-galad. Of the Dwarves few fought upon either side; but the kindred of Durin of Moria fought against Sauron
This text made to mark the goodness of elves (and of Durin's folk) could also imply that at the Dagorlad there were Orcs fighting against Sauron side by side with the Dunedain, Elves and Dwarf of the Last Alliance...
In my own headcanon I speculated about the Blue Wizards being in Rhûn and being able to partially redeem those orcs, and sending them to the big battle against Mordor at the end of the Second Age.
How does one reconcile Eru's pronouncement at the end of the Ainulindale ("And, thou Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played in my despite that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of thinks more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined"- J.R.R. Tolkien, The Ainulindale) with Melkor's greatest sin and the irredeemable nature of the orcs? Not only do the orcs (and perhaps trolls) need to be redeemed, they also need to be 'more wonderful than Melkor can imagine.'
My head canon for this answer is that Melkor bread tortured and mutilated elves with orc-demons (The Boldog Orcs, lesser Maiar in orc shape). To his chagrin, Melkor did not create immortal powerful warriors, but instead twisted and shrunken slaves, weak on their own but fecund, and able to produce multitudes for Melkor's hosts. However, because they were made from the Firstborn children of Eru, and perhaps the Ainu of Eru's direct creation, the fea of the orcs go to the Halls of Mandos when they die.
It is here, in Mandos, where the Valar can begin the healing of tortured and enslaved spirits of the orcs. Lots of visits from Nienna and Este later and with perhaps so divine intervention, they are redeemed and become much more that Melkor could imagine in his dark heart. At the end of Arda, however that plays out, Melkor will find that he has created more Elves that Eru has and all of them want a word with their abusive dear ole' dad. In this way, Melkor's greatest sin also becomes his unwitting greatest accomplishment and contribution to Arda Restored.
On the subject of the Wise regarding the treatment of captured orcs, It seems to me that their council is to protect the fea and character of the Elves more that anything to do with orcs. It is a difficult quandary. You cannot give orcs their freedom without allowing them to sow chaos somewhere else. On the other hand, it is also cruel to keep them imprisoned forever. The most expedient thing to do is to execute them, but because the Elves do not have the authority to resurrect them, they should not have the authority to slay them at will (at least according to the Wisest of the Wise). To avoid this quandary, the Elves seemed to employ a no quarter give policy when facing orcs. This issue is similar to Manwe's rationale for the unchaining of Melkor, less about the Dark Lord and more about refusing to emulate his ways.
I like to think that orcs could be redeemed, considered it would take a lot of effort due to the level or their corruption.
I think that none in the Tolkien universe thinks it’s possible because no one actually tried.
The facts that it raises questions for our heroes makes it, in my opinion, even more interesting, moral complexity being a thing that (IN MY OPINION) lacks in Arda. It does not make our heroes achievements any worse by any means and accentuate the tragedy of Morgoth corruption of the elves.
I like to think that, when elves slay some orcs, some part of their souls says « This could have been an elf ».
I believe all that ever transpired in Middle Earth, per the song of creation, was within Eru's acceptance. Within all races was the motivation for good and evil; not all born are good or evil. Eru understood this. Orcs picked a side yet they too yearned to be free of battle and live in peace.
The only orcs we ever really see are soldiers and servants at work. We don't ever really see them at restin times of peace.
Not quite. In The Hobbit, a party of Orcs were conspiring with the Wargs to attack innocent farmers along the Anduin. That was before the Dwarves and Bilbo encountered them and were trapped in the trees; that little skirmish prevented them from carrying out the plan, but the plan was there. The Orcs were essentially sadistic cannibalistic monsters even during peace times.
Orcs are basically Mongols on steroids, every able bodied male is a soldier to some extent and the weak are likely killed. We never see female orcs that I recall but I assume they exist, probably in horrid conditions somewhere.
@Thomas.Wright
They were still under the shadows of The Necromancer (Sauron). We see Orcs really just being alone and avoiding human interaction. They were servants, but more so slaves of the Dark Lord. The one they feared. They did not want to serve him, but his overwhelming presence over them took precedence. Orcs are sadly weak willed. They at times almost have no will, which was designed by Morgoths torture.
@@MattyPan118 Not really buying that this was why they were plotting to attack settlers. They seemed to be relishing the prospect of slaughtering unsuspecting humans. I don't think it's as easy to just say, "The Dark Lord was manipulating them," when they seem to enjoy the work that the Dark Lord might have been giving them.
I think you should start with, "Can Orcs stop eating us" If the answer is no then I think the rest speaks for itself
"can people stop shooting each other" “can people stop impale each other" of course the question is complicated.
@@Seer_Of_The_Woodlands Cute but even people who shoot each other can make peace. Not so much when you eat them
@@prickly10000 so yeah... but how many times has anyone really tried to make peace with the orcs and if being eaten scares you, take a couple of cows with you and offer them as a gift, maybe over time you can get them to work together like that and slowly focus on other things in their nature. say that next time you will also bring food, but you want something in return to teach them how to trade, etc
@@prickly10000 it will certainly take time and effort, but in a world where God exists absolutely, being a good person is the right thing to do, I suppose. and is there a nobler purpose than to repair that which Melkor himself corrupted.
Ultimately I think that yes, they are redeemable. Eru Iluvatar said as much...
"And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."
By saying this, he not only says that all things will go as he intended but that every creature in existence plays their role he set out for them and is redeemable in the end, even Melkor.
Thank you . I always thought maybe a hall of mandos or the void , to return with morgoth , and then redemption after
so if those orcs' souls were the same would you send them back to the melkor person who captured and tortured you into orcs?
@@Seer_Of_The_Woodlands in a separate hall , like how men and elves are separated
@@shanenolan5625
good👍
We need a fan fiction story where an Elf decides to raise an orphaned Orc baby!
Recently I've kind of seen the slaying of orcs in the same way that Krishna explains to Arjuna why it is not evil to slay their enemies in the Bhagavad Gita, whereby it's almost doing them a favour and allowing what good there is left in them (if any) to be released from their mortal forms to (perhaps) be reborn in some way. Or, simply, allowing future generations of the free people to be born without the suffering caused by the orcs and their masters.
0:44 Can anyone tell me what scene this is from in the movie? Thanks
Ratbag from SOM is an example of an orc that could be redeemed.
Let's be honest even both the Orcs and Uruk-Kai can fight each other from time to time. Especially the Uruk-Kai who have managed to capture the Hobbits Merry and Pippin and later even Frodo when he got impaled by Shelob and the Orcs went through his stuff after he got captured.
In the end, the Orcs arose from the Children. The Silmarillion tells that the first Orcs in Beleriand were thought of as Avari that had somehow gone feral. Were the influence of Morgoth and Sauron to be removed, they would probably live in groups or clans, and would be more brigand than anything else. And Eru's proclamation that all things in Arda would redound to His glory we have the answer: NOT irredeemable, but it would take many many many generations to return to them the Free Will that Eru gave them.
I beleive it would take several generations after the fall of sauron before the orc could see a better way of life and only then would the spark of redemption be a possibility for the corruption of evil is so heavily ingrained into their very being.
From how I see it, I think it might depend on the individual orc. The few times we see orcs interacting with one another, ex. The orcs who've captured Merry and Pippin, making camp outside Farngorn, they do have different personalities and opinions- same goes with Gorbag and Shagrat inside Cirith Ungol. I interpret that as orcs having different views and standpoints (however profoundly limited, due to their nature, and with clear biases depending on what orc breed they are)- Some are definitely more keen to do the great eyes bidding than others.
I seem to recall an orc that was not "evil". Or at least wasn't into killing. Not sure if that was from Tolkien's writings or not. And in at least one LOTR game you could interact with an orc and it was somewhat helpful.
Two thoughts:
1) Part of the problem with redeeming any orc in practical terms was that there would be so little for them to do outside of Morgoth's will, and so few places where they might be accepted.
2) If Elves (the progenitors of the orcs) could be reincarnated in Arda, then maybe orcs could, too: perhaps their only redemption, if they wished it, was to be reborn in some new form on Earth, and earn their place that way. Indeed, they may account for the spirits of many among us even today . . .
But Tolkein says THIS about the Battle of Dagorlad: ''All living things were divided in that day, and some of every kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save the Elves only.'' ALL, exept Elves. EVERY kind.
This seems to imply that it includes Orcs and Trolls.
-
And just cos the heroes never meet an Orc they THINK is redeemable doesn't mean none are. It also doesn't make it a racial war. It's no different from the soldiers of a country/empire where many want to fight and others are simply too scared to challenge orders. The orcs invaded, whether they were good or bad individually doesn't matter to those who's homes and families are in danger, they still have to fight back and kill the enemy.
I believe there's a distinction between the inherent potential for good and actually being good natured. In my mind, the twisted and corrupted creatures of Melkor and Sauron will always retain the potential yet it would never be realized due to their evil natures. Like nature and nurture. All things were made good by the hand of Eru yet Melkor began nurturing the potential for good into evil.
I believe that Orcs can be redeemed, it would just take a great deal of power, patience, and will to do the task, maybe not in Middle Earth since Melkors evil was directly poured into it, maybe it would take the magic of the Valar to do it. Edit: maybe not even the Valar when I think about it, maybe only Illuvatar could’ve done it
In the shadow of mordor/war games the orc Ratbag (whom which I named my account after) is a decent example of a redeemable orc even though he is non-canon
Man, IDK 🤷♀️ Mellon...This is a Very interesting Question, that even the Professor is stumped!!!
Thanks for this Interesting Video, that I will still be thinking of an Answer, Until your New Type of *Cocks Head* Lore Video...
You have New Types still and you have been on TH-cam for while, I am impressed Mellon!!!
Marion Baggins Out!!!
Hey, I wanted to ask.
Would you ever consider doing a video on comparing Lord of the Rings to Warhammer Age of Sigmar?
I think such a video would make for an interesting topic.
I believe that this issue should be approached outside of a moral and ethical perspective. An idea can be developed by approaching it metaphysically through the soul and physically through the body. The mechanism of reincarnation may be a means for this recycling. (I assume Eru's consent has been obtained.) In doing so, the Valar can reconstitute the body, using the image of the hröa found in the fëa as a guide. But since this image is distorted, it seems unlikely that the Valar could rid the body of its appearance as an orc. This is the material part of the job. The main thing is to save the soul. This may be possible if it can be realized, but I cannot foresee it either.
It would seem Morgoth bred Elves, Men, and possibly even Dwarves, taking those elements thereof he had the most use for and twisting the results into what became Goblins/Orcs. As such, Orcs despise Elves, Dwarves, and especially Men, for they hate the stock from which they were produced. Nevertheless, even orcs had aspirations to what may be considered normal lives away from war and battle. In The Return of the King, two Orcs in the tower discussed their plans for after the war, far away from Sauron, setting up somewhere the meat and plunder were good. It's not exactly the sort of life to which good folk aspire, but for Orcs, as close as they were capable to something mundane and not genocidal.
I believe the Orcs probably had as Much Agency over their Actions as a Shark or a Tiger or any other wild predators have over their compulsions and desires...
'redeemed' has the problematic prefix 're' that implies a goodness to return to; I reckon that because they're born to have that nature of hatred, an intentional inversion of goodness, changing that to goodness would probably drive the orc in question mad from questioning nature vs nurture, their own origins and actions, etc
that's how life is and every soldier returning from war has thought about it since the beginning of time.
can the actions done be forgiven, etc. is the soldier responsible for everything if he has been ordered to do so under threat of execution?
On the matter of the moral culpability of the heroes versus them somehow "redeeming" the Orcs, we'd have to contemplate to what degree they are responsible for trying to redeem them. Apparently, redeeming them felt more remote than defeating ten thousand Uruk-hai in battle, so regardless of whether it is possible to redeem them in a cosmic, it might not be viable during a war of that scale. The Orcs are not, after all, peaceable neighbors.
Yes, but it would be difficult due to the corruption of Morgoth.
Well Tolkien was a Catholic so he understood that there is no redemption without repentance and a just atonement, and there can be no repentance without the power of the Holy Spirit in one's life. Although no individual is born beyond redemption, certain decisions to reject good and willfully serve evil may result in the permanent departure of the Holy Spirit from one's being, making a choice to repent an impossibility. So, we could consider whether the good spirit of Eru has permanently abandoned these creatures, but even if not, what has been done to make atonement for the willful evil and satisfy eternal justice? I don't think Tolkien provided a path to redemption for these creatures, or intended one.
What if a baby orcling was brought up in the Shire by Hobbits, would it still turn out evil?
I think it's a little unfair to expect people to try to redeem those who are actively attacking them. "Now hang on, let's talk about this," isn't the best response to an enemy army intent on violence, which is usually the way Orcs are encountered. I also think it is tell that multiple characters give Orcs a chance to flee or throw down their arms in surrender. And in the rare events we see Orcs among other Orcs, they're depicted as crass and angry, but no more so than a grumpy human. And if memory serves, Tolkien mentioned wanting Sam and Frodo to encounter a tribe of good Orcs but couldn't work it into the story.
I personally feel there's nothing wrong in literature and especially in genres like fantasy, sci-fi and space opera where a villain and minions are irredeemable. Having clearly defined sides of good and evil are perfectly okay in my opinion.
Redeemable would imply or explicitly define the inherent humanity then of Orcs versus them being monstrous creatures, whether near "faceless" violent hostile hominid hordes or straight up inhuman monsters. And how are they raised and become a community? I think the fact that the human protagonist heroes of Middle Earth aren't exactly widespread highlighted across cultures. It's just that the two only known examples of humans from different cultures and skin are determinedly Eastern humans allied with Sauron. We get no inkling of humans from their cultural milieus who would be opposed to Sauron...the definition of evil in-world gets an unduly catholic moralistic perspective on the nature of evil, I'm realizing...theres an almost religious piety akin to crusades when the topic delves into redemption and orcs. What is redemption, and by what metric? And the question of their origin: mud-frankenstein creatures or homegrown or twisted and transmogrifed? I appreciate the hierarchical approach the films took between the Uruks and the Orc-goblins...and the question of them having souls is too close historically to human historical ignorance from time ago to today... if they were story-made to be evil in their actions and intent as sociopolitical factions across ethnicities and mythic races, and if the protagonists reflected that as much, it would be a more I dunno rounded arc/orc?
Of course, I even more care about men being redeemed (look into Tolkien's faith to see what is meant by that)
Maybe Radagast or one of the Blue Wizards could redeem an orc.
I hope Amazon doesn’t see this. Might give them some more - bad - ideas 🤐
The true tragedy and horror of the orcs was that they could be redeemed, that they indeed had souls and were living beings. Of all the perversions of creation Morgoth was responsible for, they were the worst, because in the end any orc could be redeemed but wasn't, due to the depth of the abuse of their dark masters.
with that thinking, in a way, as dark as it is to say, Melkor won, not completely, but slightly. he managed to corrupt Iluvatar's favorite children and no one tried to help them.
@@Seer_Of_The_Woodlands he won the battle for the souls of goblinkind in middle earth, but ultimately cannot win the war. I believe that each and every one of them eventually would find succour in the halls of Mandos, being embraced by the love of Eru and the Valar. One could say that's unfair, but there are many elves and men and dwarves for whom that was their only chance at peace as well, with their actions in life.
I understand. 👍but orcs didn't have the right to choose themselves and even when no one ordered them, no one tried to help / unbrainwash them. so I hope they were given mercy
The orcs we meet in LotR are being driven by Sauron's will. When Sauron falls, they lose their will and scatter. This is not just normal demoralisation, it's supernatural. Elves, Men, and Dwarves aren't simply "good guys" who need some excuse to fight "bad guys" without compunction. They're fighting Sauron. I *hope* that they feel some regret for the individual creatures they kill, like any soldiers should. Otherwise they're simply racists. And they might be. Nobody said they're perfectly good either.
I appreciate this simple and direct explanation so much and without imposing our own reader/viewer philosophical assumptions on the nature of evil and what is good and what redemption is! It simply allows the story to be and naturally progress and, therefore, not create a deus ex machina after the fact.
I do not think they could be redeemed as long as they lived in Arda Marred unless Ilúvatar intervened directly; the legacy of Morgoth's corrupting the world would be too strong. They died out long ago so they won't be around for the 2nd Music of the Ainur. There's also the question of whether or not Orcs had fëa; I don't think they did because I don't see why Ilúvatar would create fëa for them.
I love the idea that orcs were created from bodies left by elves whose souls have moved on.
it's an interesting idea, of course, but it has its own problems, could a soulless creature reproduce or survive without constant commanding and control, what happens if someone doesn't control them? where do they get more of them? and so on
Dare We Hope. I think the same question could be asked about the Old Testament enemies of Israel. I'd like to think that they are redeemable, but only through Gods grace and mercy.
"if someone has not heard of Jesus, is he/she automatically condemned the doom?" deep themes. I don't think that Tolkien, as a Catholic, would have created a world where salvation is impossible.
Does it come down to the concept of the soul? As the orcs don’t have one, they are filled with the spirit of Sauron instead. Maybe then he is like a Dark Soul urging them to his evil. Without Sauron, there is then no motivation so they are consumed by their base instincts and I the end pass to obscurity.
🙂
Irredeemable perhaps. Maybe upon an Orc's creation, their soul would be given a choice by Eru to serve Morgoth or to choose good instead. Those who choose the side of Illuvatar would get to pass onto the Halls of Mandos or some unknown yet wholly good destination. And those Orcs who choose evil had their will set upon evil for eternity? That would be a truly terrifying and damnable existence.
wouldn't Melkor have been more powerful than Iluvatar in that case? and would someone who was Catholic (Tolkien) have created a world where salvation is impossible? if some of the orcs are finally condemned forever, doesn't that mean that Melkor won at least a little?
otherwise quite an interesting theory 👍
I say that yes they could have but the hatred that orcs had for others and that others had for them means that no one would even try for those that did would die
anyone is redeemable...after a few thousand years in the Halls of Mandos
I don't think they were irredeemable as such they just haven't been redeemed yet. And I don't think they have gone away either. In one Letter Tolkien says you can find plenty of evidence of 'orcish' behaviour all around us in people. This implies to me that just as Tolkien saw the best of humans and their art and culture as being, in part, from the influx of elf into the human line, so I think he saw the poor behaviour of modern humans as partly stemming from the orcish blood in the human line. We know there were 'Half-orcs' and 'goblin-men' so it seems breeding was not only possible between human and orc, but had already occurred many times by the War of the Ring. So I don't think they were ever redeemed, and I don't think they died out or fled to die out into holes and caves entirely, it was already too late for that, and as result humans all got a bit or orcish nature in us. It explains quite a lot, sadly. And in that sense orcs are redeemable, in that it us up to each of us in how we live our life to suppress and defeat those 'orcish' impulses and redeem ourselves and so the orc too in the end. Eru moves in mysterious ways!
I agree they can't be redeemed but you have to understand from their point of view they are doing good they're doing the will of a god and his first Lieutenant so as far as they're concerned they're doing what they're supposed to be doing they're doing the good and world I know that's a twisted viewpoint but they're twisted creature.
Orc is the embodiment of that which is irredeemable.
Being corrupted elves, were Orcs as immortal as elves?
probably not in time Sauron and Melkor crossed them with humans.
so Sauron and Saruman did at least that. wanted "better soldiers"
That might explain the goblins who could instantly recognize the swords "Biter" (Orcrist) and "Beater" (Glamdring). Then there's Bolg, son of Azog, who could not be less than 241 years old when he was killed in the Battle of Five Armies.
This would also explain how Morgoth could assemble so large numbers.
After the destruction of the one ring they ran off like mindless animals.
According to Amazon, they just want to have their own home.
They are not redeemable. I tried the can machine, the plastic and the glass. If fact, management said I cannot return to that store.
Weaksauce.
Redeemable Orcs doesn't make the heroes less heroic- it makes Sauron more evil - since the Orcs become, to an extent, victims and slaves of evil. And this doesn't weaken the good folk, since they clearly had to focus on saving who could be saved, rather than spending their strength on unwinnable tasks that would doom everyone.
😍😍😍✅✅✅
Redeemed in life? I don’t think so. I think their wound was too deep. But I believe they were redeemed upon death and meeting with their real creator, Eru.
Just let Evil be what it is…… otherwise we make less of them……they are just not nice, you would not like to introduce them to your mother for afternoon tea.
Personally I think that they were redeemable but it wasn't at all possible under any circumstances for them to be redeemed. The reasons for both of these statements goes back to who created them: Morgoth. They didn't choose to fight on the side of Morgoth/Sauron's forces, they were forced into obeying and following Morgoth/Sauron's orders. So if they had a choice and were neither good or evil surely some of them would have chosen to be good. But on the other hand as the most evil being in existence created them it would have been futile to make them come over to the side of the Free Peoples as (except Eru Illuvatar himself) who was more powerful in their deeds and creations than Morgoth?....
It feels like you cant find a satisfying answer and maybe that's why tolkien didnt have one. Because he had created this totally evil enemy to kill at his leisure but that conflicted his religious believes. I guess they are not redemable and like melkor they are a part of his plan. An ugly painfilled part. So I hope he was kind to them when they died
As a Jew: I believe, in the resurrection, of the dead.
So, say we all!
in that case, maybe no one tried to save any orcs for thousands of years, it's not that complicated. it doesn't mean that it wouldn't have been possible if the matter had been really tried and it's pointless to beat around the bush about this matter. the orcs had a soul and if they have a soul there is always a (very small) chance of salvation because otherwise Melkor would have achieved his will = by doing something that even Iluvatar could not undo = darkness is stronger than light. evil wins. and I don't think Tolkien a Catholic man would have accepted such a message. isn't the message of Christianity salvation?
Especially since in the beginning elves were forcibly transformed into orcs. Why punish someone for something not in their own control?
@@kaidorade1317 absolutely. the orcs had no right to decide for themselves and even when no one told them to. . . no one tried to help them.
they were like soldiers without help after the war no one was there to treat the "wounds"
@@kaidorade1317 It's like they had an extreme trauma response to what was basically physical and emotional abuse, on top of generational trauma. Not to say that they're trauma is an excuse for behaviors, but still, you'd think Nienna would have asked Eru to bring therapists into being in the first age to address this issue
I don't see why we have to make that assumption, that orcs can't be redeemed. Our heroes can be flawed. Our heroes were also left little choice. They had to fight the orcs for their own survival and the survival of all the free peoples. What came after the destruction of Sauron is the only time the redemption of the orcs might have been a thing our heroes could have considered, but it's likely they were given little chance. Sounds like most orcs basically crawled into holes and died after Sauron's fall. Others probably fled into the wilderness and eventually died out. The ones that stuck around areas of the free peoples probably became bandits and were killed off in fighting. Even if the free peoples wanted to redeem the remaining orcs I just don't see the orcs giving them that chance.
That all said, I wish there could have been some redemption. That's one of my minor pet peeves of The Lord of the Rings, that evil is, in a way, more powerful than good. There's so many instances of evil corrupting places or peoples of Middle Earth to the point where no amount of good can ever heal it. Beings can be twisted and corrupted by evil into orcs but orcs, even given millennia of compassion, could never be made whole again.
As a Catholic, Tolkien couldn’t/wouldn’t admit the existence of irredeemable creatures. But it had to be by God’s Grace alone
Just like humans
Frodo failed
The Nunemorians failed
Feanor, his sons, and the high Kings of the Noldor failed.
Even Beren and Luthian failed
The best and brightest of Elves, Dwarves, and Men ultimately failed.
They all needed intersession by the Valar or Eru.
Orcs are no different
Tolkien should have had Dragons who became good , since they were birthed Evil and had no chance .
Melkor cannot create autonomous beings = life. dragons were probably originally lizards = part of Iluvattare's creation. and I don't think that an animal is evil in its "soul". I'm not saying that it would have been possible for mortals to do, but maybe valar? smaug spoke and had a distinct personality = conscious being. evil of course, but aware.
The greatest evils in history always had the best intentions. Evil is never self-aware.
I'm very ignorant about this subjects but I don't see the moral problem. The orcs attacked trying to expand their territories for whatever reason and others tried to defend themselves and their own. If a town of orcs living in peace was found and men attacked them doesn't matter the reasoning the men were in the wrong regardless of orcs been or not irredeemable evil. History has shown that doing evil against evil does not do any good.
Then there's no need in my mind to worry about the morality of our heroes, they did the best they could with the time and knowledge they had , and nothing else can be ask to any of them or to anyone for that matter.
Were orcs once, really elves, captured, tortured and mutilated?
Tolkien never seemed to completely make up his mind on the origins of the Orcs. The question of Orc mortality gave him a lot of trouble. Perhaps their blood-line included both Men and Elves. And perhaps Morgoth started with a creature such as a great ape, infusing it with an evil spirit such as a corrupted Maia (thus the first Orcs might have been boldogs).
@otaku-sempai2197 great apes?? Great.
I wouldn't rule out the Druedain as contributors to the Orcish bloodline either. I think GirlNextGondor took a deep dive into the various potential origins and fates of the orcs in which the Druedain were brought up.
@@genghisgalahad8465 It's just speculation.
@@douglasoglu I've seen that idea brought up before, though I have my doubts.
Yes. Nobody even tried to redeem a single orc, making them the most tragic figures in the legendarium. Nobody. Even. Tried...
Probably no
maybe both