FE1 Lorenz is one of the best late game characters in the series on paper, the problem is with broken promotions and stat boosters he's made rather irrelevant in practice. But hey, if you want a unit to hold a wyrmslayer and get warped in to combat in the last few chapters, he can pretty much last on his own forever.
@@fakesmile172 It only works in FE1, you get a promotion item, then just have bantu/tiki with a stone equipped try to use it and they'll just gain stats equal to their weapon bonuses. It doesn't even use up the promotion item so you can just do it over and over again until the stat won't go any higher. I think overflow will eventually kick in and set them back to 0 def though, so be careful about that.
Me: [2 months ago, naive, with hope for a better future of balanced units] Man, Mekkkah was absolutely brutal to the Archer and Armor Knight tier lists. I wonder if there's a tier list more lopsided than those.
i aggree, she does a way better job than Gilliam in arena grinding, as soon as i promoted her as general she never let me down not even once, ik she's not the best for damage but thanks to her high luck and speed growth she's still a good dodge tank imo, not many general unit can dodge as great as she can, idc if people says Amelia is a bad unit she's still good imo, don't pay attention when the others says that unit is bad, they can still be good at their own right, if you enjoy using them
@@rydrake9509 what matters is that you enjoy playing the game, not whether you're using busted units or not, I use Lucius and Dorcas a LOT in FE7 and they both do better than I need them to
@@QuantemDeconstructor yup that’s true I totally agree with you at 100% and yeah using units that aren’t too op is more fun than using units that you are sure that you’re going to win, winning gets boring when you know it’s always gonna happen so I approve Marlon&Louis hacks for balancing the units from the battle Royale FE7 rom hack, I had so much fun with it but sadly I gotta wait till COVID-19 gets dealt with before I invite friends over my house to play with
@@QuantemDeconstructor And that's why I loooooved General Amelia, made my runs so fun since she's either dodging or proccing great shield, then counterattacking with the helicopter attacks as she crits nonstop.
Only with tower grinding or monster grinding. Outside of that, especially for LTC, she sucks. But she does have crazy growths, especially if you give her the level up boosting item (metis' tome I think?) before giving her any levels and then give her all 50 levels to max general. Then her stats are indeed monstrous. Her only struggle is movement. So her value basically depends on your play style and what you value. You definitely have to at least baby her through her soldier class before she gets decent though.
One pet peeve of mine is when people say that movement is only really important in an LTC setting. From my (somewhat lacking) experience, I find that to be not true at all. Even during a casual playthrough, I find movement to be very important. Having high movement gives a unit more options. It allows them to reach more favorable positions or to get the jump on enemies. Also the argument that in a casual playthrough, you can turtle as much as you want is false in a number of situations. There are many maps that punish turtling. Take the chapter in fe 7 with Raven and Lucius. If you do not go fast, you miss out on a lot of rewards. I would imagine that one would be hard pressed to save even one of the soldiers without high move units.
Conquest 10 is also a map that punishes you for turtling, despite being a Defense map. When Takumi pops that Dragon Vein, all hell breaks loose and the map becomes a hell of a lot harder, especially on Lunatic, so treating the chapter more like a Route map and being fairly aggressive can actually end up making that chapter much less painful (though still hard; Takumi and Hinata are still no pushovers).
Yes, I find that, contrary to what Oswin would have you believe, having high movement helps a lot even in defense maps. This goes back to high movement giving you more options. If we take Conquest chapter 10 as an example, Silas or Beruka can hold up a group of enemies for one enemy phase and then get clear on the next player phase thanks to their superior movement, whereas someone like Effie or Arthur would be unable to disengage, forcing them to take another enemy phase that they may not be able to take. In situations where you have only one or two healers, the high movement of mounted units allows them to go to the healer and be back on the frontlines on the next turn, especially helpful when you have a defend map where you are fighting on multiple fronts.
Agreed. It's integral to the formula of Fire Emblem, RNG foils your plans, which you have to adapt for. A Fighter misses a key opponent, or a Myrmadon takes an unlucky hit, so your plans have to change. The high movement, generally above average but balanced stat Cavalier exemplifies that adaptability, as it is the unit that fills those gaps of misfortune wherever they arise, perhaps not as well as the specialist, but it's always there. The Armor Knight is the inverse of that. The Armor Knight is the fallback for those who can't really handle adaptation like that, in their slow, deliberate consistency. That's why newer players tend to love them; they are impossible to overextend with, handle mistakes and misplays better than nearly anything else, and require only minding your own units, not really the enemy or battlefield at large. Armor Knights don't really interact with RNG the same way other units do, their strengths are in the more absolute stats, so they tend to be very reliable and predictable, and relatively immune to bad luck. That said, they interfere with adaptable play by nature, and kind of force the game to their pace as a result, for better or for worse. There are still some advanced strategies to them, and I think it's kind of hasty to write them off as terrible, as there are a number of occasions where just plugging something with some armor is a great plan, and with a bit of foresight, there's really no reason they can't already be moving on to the next front as the enemies behind them are getting cleaned up, but they are still, by nature, inflexible, and inspire that same inflexibility around them. I think most anyone who has gone through part 1 of loving the Armor Knight, then part 2 of abandoning them, should at least try stepping into part 3, appreciating what they actually do bring, and remembering that Armor Knights have individual traits to utilize as well. Unless we're talking about one of the Cursed Knights, like Wendy, or Meg. They are consistent and inflexible in a very different way.
In FE 7 Eliwood Mode, that is the case since Raven doesn't move and you need to get Priscilla back whilst avoiding all the enemies. If you don't, then the green npcs will leave their cell and attack Raven. He will easily destroy all 3 of them unless he misses, which they will then kill him, either position being unfavorable. That's when you need high offense, high movement units. However, in Hector Mode, Raven moves toward your army from turn 1. Meaning the only reason you shouldn't turtle is because of the enemies on the other side of the map will knock out the soldiers and the shaman spawns that occur about 10 turns in. And as I said, that's 10 turns. That should be plenty of time to take your steps lightly. Personally, I prefer my rather defensive playstyle unless I know my units can actually take down the foe easily. For instance, Haar from Radiant Dawn can easily take down 10 foes with a Hand Axe without breaking a sweat. But if you have units who desperately need experience (such as EST characters) then it's better to slow yourself down to a crawl, if necessary, to give them the benefit of some experience points. Obviously, as you say though, the benefits of the map come first. If you need high movement units to rescue npcs, then use them by all means. Or if bandits are attacking villages, you need high movement to reach them.
Ah, damn. And when Gilbert fans get heartbroken, they spend a decade moping around feeling sorry for themselves rather than doing anything to help their loved ones. /s
@@arman_llc624 I really wish Xavier didn't start with a fricking E-rank in lances. All that work to get an indoor spear user and Thracia still finds a way to tell me to go jump off a cliff.
@@maltheopia I mean he can still use all types of axes and all types of bows. You probably won't have any bow users unless you meme ronan and tanya, so him having access to things like the brave bow and master bow, is really strong, but I agree with you. doing all the chores to get him is simply not worth it
@@arman_llc624 I mean he’s prob the best indoor bow user, meanwhile the best outdoor one would prob be Selfina due to her high weapon rank (and decent growths... that can be fixed with some scroll grinding)
Gilbert is definitely B tier. He has higher bulk than any unit in the game will reasonably have by that point, high attack, battalion wrath, and easy access to wyvern. Good on every Part 2 rout map and most importantly is the cheapest unit for helping on these maps. Can even be a boss killer if you want. Once you know what to do with him you can easily drop 1 student you normally would train and replace their role with him and instead put all that early game experience into your other units which is a huge benefit.
I think the only Unit that can outdo Gilbert is Dedue once he joins back. They're essentially pretty much the same stat-whise (just minor varieties). But getting them both on a horse is painful. He didn't stand out that much to me on Blue lions on hard-mode though. Mostly due to Dimitry, Ingrid, Sylvain and Ashe being present, much more mobile and Dimitry and Sylvain face-tanking everything anyway. He was solid but in no way exceptional. It might be different on lunatic.
@@Aurirang Technically getting Gilbert on a horse isn't hard. He has B+ Lance C Riding at base which means he has 41% certification chance for Paladin. He can make that 73% right before starting Chapter 14, and 100% before starting Chapter 15, and one can do this is a guaranteed way w/o say skill rank grinding.
Honestly I find that Gilbert's base durability isn't that good, 30 doesn't really cut it on maddening when you get doubled. He doesn't really start being a potent tank until you reach B authority on him so that he can use the battalion you get from Dedue's paralogue which gives +10 defense at max level.
I would personally rank Tauroneo B. Availability in RD is so bad that having 2 chapters of being your best unit by a landslide and 2 of taking second place to a trained jill is stil above average. Most units end up being just usable for a similar amount of time, then leave or get replaced.
Yeah, but he does so little when he joins back that he's only really good in 2 chapters and he isn't that great for the tower, nor in any of the DB chapters.
@@thestylemage2092 Only if you count Tauroneo's 1-6-1 and 1-6-2 as just one chapter, and BK's late join in 3-6 as a full chapter. Overall, Tauroneo contributes more, excluding the fact BKless 1-9 would be hell. And i would argue BK is not bad for RD standards. Think on the DB, late joiners, or Crimean units, and you will see Tauroneo is above average. Like, if you finish 2-E before the crimean knights arrive, he has the same availability as them.
Even for Radiant Dawn, Tauroneo has horrible availability. Also, even when compared to the other "useful for only a few maps" units, he's still not that great. I'm not going to sit here and list off all the units that I think are better than him, but even for a game where availability is inconsistent, a lot of units manage to perform better overall in comparison.
Oswin is the only general in any FE game I use consistently, but my most recent play through of PoR on hard mode ended up creating a monster Gatrie. Obviously great HP, STR, DEF, and he luckily got a decent amount of speed and skill. Put an adept scroll on him because there was no one else for it and he activated it constantly and could one round mostly anything. A supported Astrid and that helped out too. Too bad I probably won't use him for another 3 or 4 playthroughs.
I do think that the standard used about how “optimal” units are, arbitrarily makes some units “better” than others. If you’re playing iron man for example. Then units that give you the room to make mistakes are valuable in their own right. Replacement units also get some extra value. Of course any way to measure unit is going to be arbitrary. This isn’t a bad way at all. And armor knights and generals are still bad because their low speed and resistance makes them paper thin.
Gilbert is interesting. 3H is one of the few games where you can argue that turtling is as important as doubling... in my first Blue Lions run (which, to be fair, was only on Hard, which is not very challenging at all) I basically had everybody tinking him the whole game. Kind of like early game Dedue.
I guess I can offer some insight on Berwick saga: With frequent mounting and dismounting, mounts aren't as OP as they typically are but still they are a fairly flexible class... There are three units which replicate the functionality of an armored knight: 150G: Low mov and heavy terrain penalties and the fact that you can't bring him to main missions until you recruit him, which is kinda sad, good large shields are kinda rare but the leather large shield is fairly good against most enemies, mercy could help for potential captures... that's about 150G besides him being cheap and ez to recruit. Daoud: He is one of the closest units to an armored knight, with medium shields and a nice base defense of 9 he should take a lot of hits with relative ease, Warcry is kinda nice to boost damage and accuracy and Robust prevents him from being crippled, recruiting him needs you to save all the npcs in ch 4, after that he's free, warcry helps in killing hard to kill enemies if you stack it high enough... also he uses axes, so you can pull off 0-1 range attacks, use poleaxes to take down lancers, hammers to hit armored knights and gigas knights kinda hard... promoting him is kinda hard because of his slow axe rank exp but if you aren't fussed abt it, he does an ok job... Marcel: another free unit, save all the npcs in ch 5 main mission and you get him, Marcel has lower mov until level 15, but he has shieldfaire and largeshields with his bulk, he has some semblance of an enemy phase, Sadly he's stuck with only largeshields and the leather large shield can break a lot, so keeping a spare wouldn't hurt, he gets guard and he's probably the best user of the skill since Ward isn't available in side missions and needs to do stuff while Sherpa's bulk is high enough to take two hits which might not be enough... he gets a personal sword which is better off on another unit. In short, armored units are kinda okay but paladins should replicate most of the stuff, but since paladins are off moving around and need to avoid combat a lot more to save mount's hp or dismount to save the mount's hp, having armored units or units who can replicate similar functions to a armored knight is pretty nice to have on most maps. The reason why armored knights are bad is that generally mounted units or flyers have enough bulk to the point where the defense offered by an armored unit doesn't add a lot of value to your army. Extra defense is still nice to have tho.
44:01 - I still want a Backstabber tier-list, that is, green/blue units that you can/will fight as red units later in the same game. So: Marty, Jill, Sheema, Black Knight, Orson, Siegfried, Alvis. Three Houses and most of the Radiant Dawn cast get excluded for obvious reasons -- mostly because they don't betray you so much as having a change in perspective.
@@SomeRandomGuy-us1yb "By telling me to fight my dad, you brought this upon yourself!" "How dare you kill my soldiers! I'll kill you all!" "lol brb stealing your wife see you at the BBQ"
Obligatory TRS Comment: Zachariah: a 4 move unit is already kind of shitty. Has pretty solid bases for the most part and a mastery level of 19 where he can basically use sword in the game. Urbanite boosts his move to 5 for indoor maps so he has that going for him. can do stuff as filler in some maps but not too good. Also helps that he joins a bit past the mid point of the game. like C TIer ig? (No idea on BWS Marcel)
One rather curious trait of Zachariah is that at base he can 'sort of' replicate Yoda on Split 3 Holmes Route Warp+bosskills since he has higher base Strength than Yoda and has the mastery to yield the Lukuud. Admittedly one issue is the Map 31 boss since he doesn't double, but there are enough defensive resources in the game to have him survive through and conduct a PP + EP kill. That said while Map 37 makes having more good units desirable thus having Yoda there is nice, I think the question of whether sending Yoda with Runan or Holmes for Split 3 is optimal (via whatever standard of optimality, though realistically it includes some kind of reliability considerations) would depend on the particular features of the Map 31 boss since his stats are not static and is influenced by the course of the run. Still this is a rather interesting case of units being able to replicate certain notable traits. In a more casual playthrough he can find decent use in 26B as well. I think C tier is fair for Zachariah.
@@shootingstardust97 Same position as Tauroneo imo. I mean they do the same thing for around the same amount of chapters until part 4 which is the broken unit fiesta.
With all the crazy plans, dark magic, and advanced magitek we've seen in the series, I'm surprised we've never seen Enemy Generals with deployment rollers. Missed opportunity with the Argarthians, man. Biker Paladins, power armored, jet-skating generals, rifle-armed Snipers, and flamethrower/arc-caster/grenade mages would have worked so much better than just edgy albino versions of the same. What do Argarthian horses even eat?
The main problem with Gatrie for longterm usage in RD on Hard/Maniac is his speed cap; right away in 3-P there are Halberdiers, Warriors, and Snipers that hit 20 Speed, and as soon as 3-3 all of them will have at least 20, so with his 23 cap he won't ever be able to double most enemies in Part 3, and in late Part 3 there are even Generals, Paladins, and Sages that can hit 20 Speed. Of course he can promote to get over the Speed cap and let him double everything, but the GMs only get access to one crown before 3-11, and most other units can make better use of that crown than Gatrie, while without using a crown it'll take about all of Part 3 to get Gatrie enough levels to promote without a crown, and even then he might not get enough if you play remotely fast (like just fast enough to hit the BEXP turn count limits), as most maps will have him lagging behind missing out on combat and so that combined with his inability to ORKO most enemies will limit his EXP gain. Then comes Part 4, and his doubling problems are still not solved. He can do alright in 4-P if he can get one more levelup of Speed after promotion, as 26 Speed will allow him to double all the Paladins and Generals here that cap out at 22, but then he will be utterly useless in 4-3's desert. Then in 4-1 and 4-2, the HWS trio can hit 25 Speed, so Gatrie will need quite a few level ups after promotion to double most enemies, which since he probably won't be promoting until 3-11 or 3-E or maybe even the start of Part 4 with active usage, can be difficult for him to get even if you keep getting Speed levelups. Then in 4-4 the HWS shoot up to 28 Speed, so even if you level him enough to cap Speed by here he can start missing out on doubling again, and even the Generals can be as high as 27, so Gatrie can miss out doubling them too if you haven't gotten him a lot of levels post-promotion before here. Then for endgame Gatrie does well in 4-E-1 if you get his Speed capped, where he can then double all the Generals there and can use the Hammer. Then his durability and ability to use the Wishblade or forged Hand Axes + Luna makes him good for taking on Red Dragons in 4-E-3, but then he is lackluster in the rest of endgame, with his lackluster Resistance and inability to double the Spirits and the endgame bosses. Overall he won't ever be your big juggernaut on Hard, but Gatrie's main strength in RD is that he makes a really solid filler unit for most of the game that will be able to hold his own with little investment; as long as he gets a few levels here and there, whenever you have extra slots available after all your primary units are fielded you can just throw Gatrie in and he will be able to contribute without requiring much attention. Even if he is not promoted he can still contribute in the first set of Part 4 maps, as non-SM enemies don't get fast enough yet to double him at his tier 2 Speed cap, while his tier 2 bulk lets him still handle a few rounds of combat. In the second set of Part 4 maps though he is done if he isn't promoted by then, as enemies will double him with his tier 2 cap and 2RKO him easily.
Maybe it's just me, but I'd put Gatrie in either B tier or A tier, as it can be really easy to level him up and promote him before Part 4 if you take your time.
@@h0m3st4r Gatrie often lagging behind the other GMs after the first few turns of a map combined with his inability to ORKO most enemies on Hard makes him level up slowly (he probably won't even average a level each map if you don't go out of your way to slow yourself down or give him explicit favortism). I think B tier might still be justifiable though considering his great reliability and the fact he requires so little investment to be a solid contributor that is hard-pressed to die throughout all of Part 3 and at least the first half of Part 4 maps, but A tier is definitely pushing it unless you're playing on Normal (where then Gatrie's Speed cap doesn't prevent him from doubling and he is levelling up so much faster, allowing him to be a juggernaut that one-rounds a mass of enemies on Enemy Phase).
Can we get a Sage tier list next ? Like Wendell, Pent, Izana ect. Maybe you could extend the list to include all promoted magic users so units like Leo, Cecilia and Owlyn get included.
I had a dump strategy where i put Gatrie in the desert chapter together with Haar. Haar picked him up and threw hin into the masses of enemies and gatrie just killed everything. It took a while of animations though
Great tier list! I have some points where I disagree though - Is Hannibal really below both iterations of Sheena? I know his movement is relatively worse than hers due to Genealogy doing Genealogy things, but at least he has decent combat and can do arena stuff. Especially in FE12, I cant see a reason to even touch Sheena since you can reclass almost anyone into a better general than she is. I haven't played FE3 so I guess there is the indoor lances argument, but her stats in FE12 just make me sad. Also, Tauroneo's availability in Radiant Dawn is trash, but the Dawn Brigade is just so terrible I feel like he deserves extra brownie points for any chapter where he saves their sorry butts. Gilbert might also be worth looking into if you come back to this list/when you finish up the tier list for every FE unit. I think another comment already said this, but he's definitely usable when he comes and if you use him, that's one less student you have to train up earlier. Resources and all that.
FE12 Sheema does have an option as a decent Parthia user if reclassed to sniper and can maybe shoot a draco down in c18 if ur nos tank doesn't have maxed out speed on Lunatic. Her other map where she may do smt is like C21 cuz of all the wyverns although her shit bulk as a sniper means she needs an angelic robe to survive the initial hit or she needs an arm scroll in general which is eh. She's also a pretty shitty Gradivus candidate quite frankly. She can do something although even mac and several other parthia candidates outclass her. Also you forgot Mac and Dolph who start out as prepromoted generals in fe12 so I'll keep it brief. Mac has a niche in c17 as a Parthia user when reclass to sniper, he can get some easy player phase kills and EP the spear draco and OHKO in return. Basically Sheema but has an extra map for contribution. Dolph is decent siege bait since he actually has the res needed (2 personal res base) and his low luck reclassed allows him to do stuff in the lategame maps by drawing attention away. Not too good but has some uses. One funny thing about Douglas, on HM iirc the bolting sage ORKOs Douglas in 16x which is depressing.
One thing i like to do in RD 1-6-1 is have tauroneo rescue a unit like micaiah or meg. He can knock a bunch enemies down to extremely low health to feed everyone else. In 3-13 i find he is fairly useful to rescue the halberdier in the lower section so you can more effectively choke the point.
I think POR Taureno deserves either C or B. His bulk makes him really stand out in the lategame, where most units gradually feel frailer and frailer as you approach on game. Only Ike and maybe one or two of thr cavs shares his level of durability. Resolve is not hard to activate, mages still do significant enough damage to get him to half hp if needed. If he only faces physical units from there on, he an maintain half hp for a long time. He is also a good candidate for provoke, which makes balliste target him for low damage. This is helpful, especially on the bridge map. While he has low defence, he can often move farther as he worries less about getting defeated. He almost always gets close enough to do good on most maps. Taureno can even take on one of the flanks in endgame by himself if needed.
I think Mekkah should use all the tiers as to compare how good are the class amongst it's tiers.Because i feel like it's just hard to see how good would a character be against others just like him. idk, just me.
How about everyone is bad and not worth using in a class? Intsys is incredinly stubborn in repeating the same mistakes any games in a way that is truly unique. Check the history of any other SRPG, they are all much better at nerfing broken classes and buffing weak ones.
More context on how bad Lorenz is, he has way worse stats to Horace, who you forgot to add. And he joins 8 chapters earlier than Lorenz. Lorenz has +2HP, -4STR, -9SKL, -2SPD, -5LUK, equal defenses compared to Horace. His hit rate is in the 60's on endgame enemies with the most accurate weapons, and his only support is Caeda who he can't cap supports with or keep up with. He can't even rely on Parthia because he's half way to A rank as a horseman. Even his bulk is really bad because endgame generals QUAD him and swarm mages 2 shot him. It's really bad.
Can you do a dark mage tier list at some point? So that would be like Salem, Raigh, Canas, Pelleas, Niime, etc. It might be kinda small since there are only so many dark mages and some like Hubert were in your magical boys tier list, but it'd be cool to see someone like Raigh or Pelleas (who you didn't put in your Est tier list) get discussed in one of these.
I like Tauroneo in the tower in Radiant Dawn. Pretty good Wishblade candidate, and you get Imbue on him, and he's basically unkillable, which is pretty nice.
In my experience (pitfall aaaaaa) Gatrie is pretty alright longterm. I've brought him to endgame three times and he's held up well. Lack of mobility is a big minus and he doesn't double by that point, but he still does quality damage and his bulk is great.
To be specific, Nephenee Syndrome is an unofficial term for when people insist that a unit is good because in their playthroughs, they always end up putting a lot of focus into them, even though most units would be good when given that level of focus (especially if that unit is a cute girl). Nephenee certainly isn't the worst character in Path of Radiance, but since she has a cool design and is a playable Soldier, a lot of people figure "oh, man, I have to use this girl" even if they'd probably be better off with someone else.
I can imagine Tauroneo being useful in FE9 Maniac 0% growths, but I'm skeptical. He's not completely useless in Hard 0% growths, but he does relatively little. Maniac does have more call for dealing with lots of strong enemies, and in that respect his relatively good per-hit damage and bulk might be worth using relative to characters who stop doubling in the transition from Hard to Maniac. On the other hand, even with Resolve active he's probably not going to double because his base Speed isn't good enough (iirc he'll go from 13->19, which is the same as Geoffrey, who doesn't double consistently on Hard). And most chapters from 21 onward really emphasize mobility (or being able to use a siege tome).
Fe3 Sheena Belongs a bit higher IMO. Only her and General Draug can use Gradivus Indoors, which has some merit to it. But then again, they are still bad with the movement penalty.
I used Wallace recently in my FE7 HHM Terrible Units Only run(i have some vids up of this) and... he was the worst unit of the lot overall. yes, worse than Lyn, worse than *Rebecca*. ya'll don't know the pains of actively using a 5 mov unit around lategame, one that even gets doubled on occasion and doubles nothing in return and thus kills nothing in one-round, and happens to be at the forefront of taking status staves at 90-100% accuracy in chapters where those status staves are only getting more and more common. my dude was useful for handling a few reinforcements in 28x at best, and a hardcore liability in most chapters at worst, even with all the feeding in the world to give him levels. he does not deserve to be above the lowest possible tier.
28x isn't even the best example for usefulness of an unit, because that chapter is made for the purpose of train Nino, few enemies with 1-2 range and a lot of enemies with low resistance.
The issues with generals is that while defense is important, it takes a backseat to movement and speed. If you cant keep up with the frontline or double/not get doubled, you will be promoted to the bench in short order.
This is true but in a lot of games you can give them a ride on your mount and rescue drop or have them as a backpack to switch to on the fly. If your map has you fighting waves of foes as you walk or the terrain is narrow, they're not a bad option. If you gotta haul ass, they're less helpful.
@@skeith804 I dont know how it was pre gba games but you couldn't rescue generals in those games or the tellius series with alot of units, they were just too heavy. Oswin from fe7 as a knight is at 14 con and he gets +2 on promotion. I'm pretty sure no one save maybe florina could pick him up at that point and she loses aid on promotion. This would change in awakening and fates with pair up. As for holding choke points it's a good idea in theory but falls apart due to the fact most maps dont have a lot of choke points that one unit can easily hold. It is also not helped by the fact that by mid game enemies are getting silver weapons and there are more fliers and magic users on maps. Generals can be great early game units, but eventually so many different factors will force them into being more of a liability.
B2 Sheema - S tier: Sheema looks unappealing on paper but in reality actually has a lot of things going for her. First FE3 enemy quality is pretty poor and with a killer lance she'll actually double 90% of enemies in the game. Armors in this game are the only units with access to Lances indoors which are some of the games most difficult maps and the Gradivus is the only lance in the game with 1-2 range that can double giving her a strong niche against one of the most common late game enemies, dragons. Her hp is low but is actually high enough to survive a hit from a dragon which is about as good as most of your only units and her high defense also let's her tank hits from devil axe enemies. Unlike Doga she doesn't need to promote so she doesn't steal a valuable knight crest giving her much less opportunity cost than other units. She'll need speed wings but no one else really wants them since they can just grow speed with starshards anyways. She also has great utility as she gives support units to Samson who is another really good unit with some of the highest bases in the whole game.
You mention something that I feel like isn't talked about enough in unit viability, the opportunity cost of their promotion and weapon type. Units that share promotion items kinda should be compared in that context, as should units able to take advantage of untapped weapon types. I feel like there's an assumption that every unit you use just promotes, when in some games, the second or third of a particular item can come super, super late. Some units can still compete without promoting, but a lot more absolutely tank in viability if they have to sit at Tier 1 for 6 or 7 maps.
@@aprinnyonbreak1290 I do think this gets talked about a lot regarding the FE7 Cavs and Oswin. Knight Crests are more spread out compared to most other promotion items, so using more than one of each can often be a game of weighing the costs and benefits of, say, promoting Sain over Kent in Lyn Mode (assuming you play it) or vice versa, or other similar choices. It's definitely not something you see DS-onward, though, since every class uses the same promotion item a la FE5 but the rarity of Master Seals isn't as pronounced.
This is so sad... Can we buff Generals? Seriously though, please give them something, bring back "all weapons allowed" generals or make them more available, just do something.
They need normal move like all the other classes have. Sustain and/or DR would work too. Maybe give them heal utility. High damage, very tanky but slow and vulnerable to magic. IS can do a lot with this class. Sad indeed.
They already have, in both Conquest and Three Houses. In Conquest, they can one-shot the frail enemies, while not getting doubled by them thanks to Wary Fighter; debuffs and health draining is what keeps them balanced, but they can still be useful, more than in any other game in the series. Chokepoints abound, and the support of flying units can help them get around the map. In 3H, protection stacking is very effective if you haven't set up some kind of vantage + wrath + retribution combo. You're not doubling a lot of enemies, so might as well get doubled but never take any damage. Rescue, warp and stride help make their mobility issues less impactful, and gauntlets help make their damage output high. Sure, they get destroyed by magic, but you can play around that. Generals/FKs in recent games aren't the most broken classes ever, and as metas progress they will eventually get replaced in favor of better mobility units, but they're not terrible like in past games.
Mekkah gatrie's general speed cap is 23. Its the same as soren so if capped soren can't double, nether can gatrie. That means most things past the half way point of part 3 probably won't be doubled. As a marshal, gatrie has a speed cap of 31 which isn't enough to double generals in the tower or any of the spirits.
@@Mekkkah exactly. I see a lot of people claiming he should be higher in the teir list but he has a serious doubling issue once he caps that really hinders his long term viability. I was just adding some context to what you were saying about gatrie and his speed problems.
I believe Sheema joins after you give Gotoh the Star Spheres, so she doesn't get to benefit from those. (Unless you missed one and aren't going for the true ending.)
I think FE3 Sheena is better personally. You can just slap the star orb on her, have her fight the loads of easy enemies next chapter that can't kill her, she maxes everything, and you got a solid gradivus user for the end-game chapters. Her FE12 version is terrible though.
This may be a stupid question but if you were to do a thief tier list how would you evaluate lara and would you include the outlaws and ninjas from fates. With lara would you primarily look at her thief utility and how good she is as a thief or would you primarily focus on her dancing utility because you cant ignore the dancing utility but it's weird to evaluate her dancing utility when you're focusing on thieves. Then there are the outlaws and ninjas from fates they have lock touch which make them the closest classes to thieves in fates or do you think they're too removed from normal thieves to be included in the architype.
When I played FE7 for the first time, I had Oswin carry my game to the penultimate level. Couldn't kill the boss with anybody there. I was like twelve years old and unfamiliar with the genre. I kind of want to backup my save and release it to the internet for people to attempt beating the game with my hilariously imbalanced party.
Brom carried my noob ass in the last chapter in Path of Radiance hard, he tanked two whole turns from Ashnard giving me time to finish him off with birbman
You know, it only just dawned on me that Awakening and Fates didn't have any pre promoted generals at all. How odd. Anyways, of these pre promoted generals, Sheema is probably my favorite. I played Book 2 of FE3 recently, and it was just so fun having her go ham with the Gradivus. Ditto with Lorenz in Book 1. I had Lorenz massacre Michalis' entire army with the Gradivus and Starsphere. Gatrie was also pretty great in RD as well. You forgot Horace, Dolph, and Maccelan btw. I would argue that Hannibal is probably better than Arden, because Hannibal at the very least has the decency to join as a Level 20 pre promoted general, and you can argue that he is at least somewhat useful against the three headed draco rider assault at the end of Ch. 9. You stick him in the home castle and have him go to town on the draco riders that try to take the castle. It's not like you wanna have him fight Areon anyway. Arden on the other hand is only useful in getting the Pursuit Ring. While it is a bigger contribution overall, can you really consider this hidden event as part of Arden's viability as a unit?
@@gregster1016 It's because of the emphasis on unit customization in Awakening and Fates making characters prepromoted removes the secondary promotion path which removes a part of character customization
Okay, how the hell is FE3 Lorenz below Wallace? FE3 Lorenz is competent at base, has an actual niche as being your only decent indoor-Gradivus-user, and is in a game that comparatively isn't as mount-dominant. Wallace is incompetent at base, has no niche, and plays in a supremely mount-dominant game. FE3 Lorenz ain't great, but he's at least D-tier for what he does. Actually, for that matter, why is FE3 Lorenz below FE11? Literally the only thing FE11 Lorenz has on him is Parthia as a Sniper and even that's seen as a crappy option. FE3 Lorenz doesn't get one-rounded by half the enemy roster at base.
I can understand why people don't like using Generals, what with their abysmal movement range and low speed. Do note, though, that speed isn't really the point of a General in...well, general, and anti-armor weapons aren't very durable or easy to come by. So, for slower, more methodical players, Generals do just fine. For faster players, you're better off with Wyvern Lords instead.
I don't think Gilbert is good but I do think he's over hated. People hate him outright because of his character, regardless of whether his utility as a unit can be salvageable. Not to mention he replaces Dedue in Hunting by Daybreak so he gets a lot of extra hate for taking screen time away from one of the Blue Lions core to Dimitri's arc. FE4 is the game of hating enemy/bosses with great shield, but your own playable general can't keep up with the cavalry lol
I don't like Gilbert because in my maddening run of hunting by daybreak he was just one more rng mess struggling to survive along with my completely screwed dimitri.
@@gameboyn64 Blue Lions was my maddening route as well. But honestly I don't think Gilbert was any problem at all. If your house was good then you shouldn't really need to move Gilbert; he'll be safe in his corner with Ashe. RNG is a thing but idk how Dimitri could end up bad enough.
@@l.n.3372 gilbert had trouble dealing with poor hit rates on the thieves and assassins who hit back with non negligible damage. Because my dimitri was atrocious he had to aggro some of the enemies away as byleth simply couldn't handle everyone. My sad dimitri was str spd and def screwed hard and i even went brigand wyvern rider. He basically got 2 rounded by the thieves who all had pass.
@@gameboyn64 the best way to make Gilbert useful in HBD is for Ashe to carry him a lance and a Silver Shield with which he actually becomes a competent unit
RD Gatrie in C. Pfffff, come on. Very good candidate for one of the best armors in the series, and I’d wager of the RD lance specialists the only one flat out better is Aran and possibly Geoffrey, but once both are in the same place if I recall mounted movement bonus isn’t present in tower. (For the pals, not fliers)
@@boredomkiller99 the problem is the general overvalue of defense in fire emblem. In most games the average defense stat is significantly lower than the other ones. The devs are terrified of you getting to TINK everything and so put a dozen weaknesses to the armors. And on top of it, they are balanced around Enemy boss generals, and the fact that you need to have a way to deal whit them even if your mage died. Tge result is low speed, low res, arnorslayers existing and low mov. That's trading 1 good point for 4 bad ones. And this is easily solved by just having more enemy mages or bringing back the minimum of 1 damage that was on Genealogy.
FE1 Lorenz is one of the best late game characters in the series on paper, the problem is with broken promotions and stat boosters he's made rather irrelevant in practice. But hey, if you want a unit to hold a wyrmslayer and get warped in to combat in the last few chapters, he can pretty much last on his own forever.
yeah. due to a bug, bantu is basically your armorknight as soon as you get a promotion item, because he can use it multiple times.
@@Saltyoven Even without the glitch, FE1 Bantu is an absolute monster and doesn't get enough love.
@@dweebdragon4400 a lot can be said about having capped defense on top of dragon stone bonuses AND a weapon that never breaks
I've never heard of this glitch, how do you do it?
@@fakesmile172 It only works in FE1, you get a promotion item, then just have bantu/tiki with a stone equipped try to use it and they'll just gain stats equal to their weapon bonuses. It doesn't even use up the promotion item so you can just do it over and over again until the stat won't go any higher. I think overflow will eventually kick in and set them back to 0 def though, so be careful about that.
Me: [2 months ago, naive, with hope for a better future of balanced units] Man, Mekkkah was absolutely brutal to the Archer and Armor Knight tier lists. I wonder if there's a tier list more lopsided than those.
Not pictured: Amelia is in SS tier.
i aggree, she does a way better job than Gilliam in arena grinding, as soon as i promoted her as general she never let me down not even once, ik she's not the best for damage but thanks to her high luck and speed growth she's still a good dodge tank imo, not many general unit can dodge as great as she can, idc if people says Amelia is a bad unit she's still good imo, don't pay attention when the others says that unit is bad, they can still be good at their own right, if you enjoy using them
@@rydrake9509 what matters is that you enjoy playing the game, not whether you're using busted units or not, I use Lucius and Dorcas a LOT in FE7 and they both do better than I need them to
@@QuantemDeconstructor yup that’s true I totally agree with you at 100% and yeah using units that aren’t too op is more fun than using units that you are sure that you’re going to win, winning gets boring when you know it’s always gonna happen so I approve Marlon&Louis hacks for balancing the units from the battle Royale FE7 rom hack, I had so much fun with it but sadly I gotta wait till COVID-19 gets dealt with before I invite friends over my house to play with
@@QuantemDeconstructor And that's why I loooooved General Amelia, made my runs so fun since she's either dodging or proccing great shield, then counterattacking with the helicopter attacks as she crits nonstop.
Only with tower grinding or monster grinding. Outside of that, especially for LTC, she sucks. But she does have crazy growths, especially if you give her the level up boosting item (metis' tome I think?) before giving her any levels and then give her all 50 levels to max general. Then her stats are indeed monstrous. Her only struggle is movement. So her value basically depends on your play style and what you value. You definitely have to at least baby her through her soldier class before she gets decent though.
One pet peeve of mine is when people say that movement is only really important in an LTC setting. From my (somewhat lacking) experience, I find that to be not true at all. Even during a casual playthrough, I find movement to be very important. Having high movement gives a unit more options. It allows them to reach more favorable positions or to get the jump on enemies. Also the argument that in a casual playthrough, you can turtle as much as you want is false in a number of situations. There are many maps that punish turtling. Take the chapter in fe 7 with Raven and Lucius. If you do not go fast, you miss out on a lot of rewards. I would imagine that one would be hard pressed to save even one of the soldiers without high move units.
agreed.
Conquest 10 is also a map that punishes you for turtling, despite being a Defense map. When Takumi pops that Dragon Vein, all hell breaks loose and the map becomes a hell of a lot harder, especially on Lunatic, so treating the chapter more like a Route map and being fairly aggressive can actually end up making that chapter much less painful (though still hard; Takumi and Hinata are still no pushovers).
Yes, I find that, contrary to what Oswin would have you believe, having high movement helps a lot even in defense maps. This goes back to high movement giving you more options. If we take Conquest chapter 10 as an example, Silas or Beruka can hold up a group of enemies for one enemy phase and then get clear on the next player phase thanks to their superior movement, whereas someone like Effie or Arthur would be unable to disengage, forcing them to take another enemy phase that they may not be able to take.
In situations where you have only one or two healers, the high movement of mounted units allows them to go to the healer and be back on the frontlines on the next turn, especially helpful when you have a defend map where you are fighting on multiple fronts.
Agreed.
It's integral to the formula of Fire Emblem, RNG foils your plans, which you have to adapt for. A Fighter misses a key opponent, or a Myrmadon takes an unlucky hit, so your plans have to change. The high movement, generally above average but balanced stat Cavalier exemplifies that adaptability, as it is the unit that fills those gaps of misfortune wherever they arise, perhaps not as well as the specialist, but it's always there.
The Armor Knight is the inverse of that. The Armor Knight is the fallback for those who can't really handle adaptation like that, in their slow, deliberate consistency. That's why newer players tend to love them; they are impossible to overextend with, handle mistakes and misplays better than nearly anything else, and require only minding your own units, not really the enemy or battlefield at large. Armor Knights don't really interact with RNG the same way other units do, their strengths are in the more absolute stats, so they tend to be very reliable and predictable, and relatively immune to bad luck. That said, they interfere with adaptable play by nature, and kind of force the game to their pace as a result, for better or for worse.
There are still some advanced strategies to them, and I think it's kind of hasty to write them off as terrible, as there are a number of occasions where just plugging something with some armor is a great plan, and with a bit of foresight, there's really no reason they can't already be moving on to the next front as the enemies behind them are getting cleaned up, but they are still, by nature, inflexible, and inspire that same inflexibility around them.
I think most anyone who has gone through part 1 of loving the Armor Knight, then part 2 of abandoning them, should at least try stepping into part 3, appreciating what they actually do bring, and remembering that Armor Knights have individual traits to utilize as well.
Unless we're talking about one of the Cursed Knights, like Wendy, or Meg.
They are consistent and inflexible in a very different way.
In FE 7 Eliwood Mode, that is the case since Raven doesn't move and you need to get Priscilla back whilst avoiding all the enemies. If you don't, then the green npcs will leave their cell and attack Raven. He will easily destroy all 3 of them unless he misses, which they will then kill him, either position being unfavorable. That's when you need high offense, high movement units.
However, in Hector Mode, Raven moves toward your army from turn 1. Meaning the only reason you shouldn't turtle is because of the enemies on the other side of the map will knock out the soldiers and the shaman spawns that occur about 10 turns in. And as I said, that's 10 turns. That should be plenty of time to take your steps lightly.
Personally, I prefer my rather defensive playstyle unless I know my units can actually take down the foe easily.
For instance, Haar from Radiant Dawn can easily take down 10 foes with a Hand Axe without breaking a sweat.
But if you have units who desperately need experience (such as EST characters) then it's better to slow yourself down to a crawl, if necessary, to give them the benefit of some experience points.
Obviously, as you say though, the benefits of the map come first. If you need high movement units to rescue npcs, then use them by all means. Or if bandits are attacking villages, you need high movement to reach them.
"I like Gilbert, but I don't think he's a W.A.I.F.U. character" Damn it. This is a heartbreaking loss for the Gilbert fans out here.
Ah, damn. And when Gilbert fans get heartbroken, they spend a decade moping around feeling sorry for themselves rather than doing anything to help their loved ones. /s
@@BumroyV2 That comment both makes me smile and feel really salty. I commend you
Gilbert fans BTFO
My condolences to all 3 Gilbert fans.
@@Lauren-tg5jj wow that's a gigantic fandom, thought 1 person liked um
you know it's a good unit when it takes an hour to recruit them and they're still bad
It's fine you can say that it's Xavier.
nfjshd ududbwjd xavier’s recruitment is hell, but in terms of a unit, his stats, skills, and weapons rank are really good
@@arman_llc624 I really wish Xavier didn't start with a fricking E-rank in lances. All that work to get an indoor spear user and Thracia still finds a way to tell me to go jump off a cliff.
@@maltheopia I mean he can still use all types of axes and all types of bows. You probably won't have any bow users unless you meme ronan and tanya, so him having access to things like the brave bow and master bow, is really strong, but I agree with you. doing all the chores to get him is simply not worth it
@@arman_llc624 I mean he’s prob the best indoor bow user, meanwhile the best outdoor one would prob be Selfina due to her high weapon rank (and decent growths... that can be fixed with some scroll grinding)
Gilbert is definitely B tier. He has higher bulk than any unit in the game will reasonably have by that point, high attack, battalion wrath, and easy access to wyvern. Good on every Part 2 rout map and most importantly is the cheapest unit for helping on these maps. Can even be a boss killer if you want. Once you know what to do with him you can easily drop 1 student you normally would train and replace their role with him and instead put all that early game experience into your other units which is a huge benefit.
I think the only Unit that can outdo Gilbert is Dedue once he joins back. They're essentially pretty much the same stat-whise (just minor varieties). But getting them both on a horse is painful. He didn't stand out that much to me on Blue lions on hard-mode though. Mostly due to Dimitry, Ingrid, Sylvain and Ashe being present, much more mobile and Dimitry and Sylvain face-tanking everything anyway. He was solid but in no way exceptional. It might be different on lunatic.
@@Aurirang Technically getting Gilbert on a horse isn't hard. He has B+ Lance C Riding at base which means he has 41% certification chance for Paladin. He can make that 73% right before starting Chapter 14, and 100% before starting Chapter 15, and one can do this is a guaranteed way w/o say skill rank grinding.
Honestly I find that Gilbert's base durability isn't that good, 30 doesn't really cut it on maddening when you get doubled. He doesn't really start being a potent tank until you reach B authority on him so that he can use the battalion you get from Dedue's paralogue which gives +10 defense at max level.
You forgot Horace from Shadow
Dragon and New mystery and Dolph and Macallan from New Mystery
Idl about FE11 Horace but Dolph and Macellan go on the "Make the boss waste 2 uses of meteor" tier.
I would personally rank Tauroneo B. Availability in RD is so bad that having 2 chapters of being your best unit by a landslide and 2 of taking second place to a trained jill is stil above average. Most units end up being just usable for a similar amount of time, then leave or get replaced.
Yeah, but he does so little when he joins back that he's only really good in 2 chapters and he isn't that great for the tower, nor in any of the DB chapters.
Doesn't he have the same availability as the Black Knight until Part 4?
@@thestylemage2092 Only if you count Tauroneo's 1-6-1 and 1-6-2 as just one chapter, and BK's late join in 3-6 as a full chapter. Overall, Tauroneo contributes more, excluding the fact BKless 1-9 would be hell. And i would argue BK is not bad for RD standards. Think on the DB, late joiners, or Crimean units, and you will see Tauroneo is above average. Like, if you finish 2-E before the crimean knights arrive, he has the same availability as them.
Even for Radiant Dawn, Tauroneo has horrible availability. Also, even when compared to the other "useful for only a few maps" units, he's still not that great. I'm not going to sit here and list off all the units that I think are better than him, but even for a game where availability is inconsistent, a lot of units manage to perform better overall in comparison.
Oswin is the only general in any FE game I use consistently, but my most recent play through of PoR on hard mode ended up creating a monster Gatrie. Obviously great HP, STR, DEF, and he luckily got a decent amount of speed and skill. Put an adept scroll on him because there was no one else for it and he activated it constantly and could one round mostly anything. A supported Astrid and that helped out too.
Too bad I probably won't use him for another 3 or 4 playthroughs.
Brom S tier or we riot
I do think that the standard used about how “optimal” units are, arbitrarily makes some units “better” than others.
If you’re playing iron man for example. Then units that give you the room to make mistakes are valuable in their own right. Replacement units also get some extra value.
Of course any way to measure unit is going to be arbitrary. This isn’t a bad way at all.
And armor knights and generals are still bad because their low speed and resistance makes them paper thin.
Nice pun in the title you got there
Gilbert is interesting. 3H is one of the few games where you can argue that turtling is as important as doubling... in my first Blue Lions run (which, to be fair, was only on Hard, which is not very challenging at all) I basically had everybody tinking him the whole game. Kind of like early game Dedue.
I guess I can offer some insight on Berwick saga:
With frequent mounting and dismounting, mounts aren't as OP as they typically are but still they are a fairly flexible class...
There are three units which replicate the functionality of an armored knight:
150G: Low mov and heavy terrain penalties and the fact that you can't bring him to main missions until you recruit him, which is kinda sad, good large shields are kinda rare but the leather large shield is fairly good against most enemies, mercy could help for potential captures... that's about 150G besides him being cheap and ez to recruit.
Daoud: He is one of the closest units to an armored knight, with medium shields and a nice base defense of 9 he should take a lot of hits with relative ease, Warcry is kinda nice to boost damage and accuracy and Robust prevents him from being crippled, recruiting him needs you to save all the npcs in ch 4, after that he's free, warcry helps in killing hard to kill enemies if you stack it high enough... also he uses axes, so you can pull off 0-1 range attacks, use poleaxes to take down lancers, hammers to hit armored knights and gigas knights kinda hard... promoting him is kinda hard because of his slow axe rank exp but if you aren't fussed abt it, he does an ok job...
Marcel: another free unit, save all the npcs in ch 5 main mission and you get him, Marcel has lower mov until level 15, but he has shieldfaire and largeshields with his bulk, he has some semblance of an enemy phase, Sadly he's stuck with only largeshields and the leather large shield can break a lot, so keeping a spare wouldn't hurt, he gets guard and he's probably the best user of the skill since Ward isn't available in side missions and needs to do stuff while Sherpa's bulk is high enough to take two hits which might not be enough... he gets a personal sword which is better off on another unit.
In short, armored units are kinda okay but paladins should replicate most of the stuff, but since paladins are off moving around and need to avoid combat a lot more to save mount's hp or dismount to save the mount's hp, having armored units or units who can replicate similar functions to a armored knight is pretty nice to have on most maps.
The reason why armored knights are bad is that generally mounted units or flyers have enough bulk to the point where the defense offered by an armored unit doesn't add a lot of value to your army. Extra defense is still nice to have tho.
So they're Generally not that great. Got it.
They are not that great in General.
44:01 - I still want a Backstabber tier-list, that is, green/blue units that you can/will fight as red units later in the same game. So: Marty, Jill, Sheema, Black Knight, Orson, Siegfried, Alvis. Three Houses and most of the Radiant Dawn cast get excluded for obvious reasons -- mostly because they don't betray you so much as having a change in perspective.
"Is this some sirt of sick joke?"
@@SomeRandomGuy-us1yb "By telling me to fight my dad, you brought this upon yourself!"
"How dare you kill my soldiers! I'll kill you all!"
"lol brb stealing your wife see you at the BBQ"
Obligatory TRS Comment:
Zachariah: a 4 move unit is already kind of shitty. Has pretty solid bases for the most part and a mastery level of 19 where he can basically use sword in the game. Urbanite boosts his move to 5 for indoor maps so he has that going for him. can do stuff as filler in some maps but not too good. Also helps that he joins a bit past the mid point of the game. like C TIer ig?
(No idea on BWS Marcel)
One rather curious trait of Zachariah is that at base he can 'sort of' replicate Yoda on Split 3 Holmes Route Warp+bosskills since he has higher base Strength than Yoda and has the mastery to yield the Lukuud. Admittedly one issue is the Map 31 boss since he doesn't double, but there are enough defensive resources in the game to have him survive through and conduct a PP + EP kill.
That said while Map 37 makes having more good units desirable thus having Yoda there is nice, I think the question of whether sending Yoda with Runan or Holmes for Split 3 is optimal (via whatever standard of optimality, though realistically it includes some kind of reliability considerations) would depend on the particular features of the Map 31 boss since his stats are not static and is influenced by the course of the run. Still this is a rather interesting case of units being able to replicate certain notable traits. In a more casual playthrough he can find decent use in 26B as well. I think C tier is fair for Zachariah.
No Black Knight? Smdh.
Black knight i will say B or A min.
@@shootingstardust97 he can't be A tier. That's for Amelia, the best Armor Knight/General, and the best unit ever as we all agree
@@shootingstardust97 Same position as Tauroneo imo. I mean they do the same thing for around the same amount of chapters until part 4 which is the broken unit fiesta.
F tier: Dies as a red unit and has bad availability
Imagine: Generals, but they have 12 move
With all the crazy plans, dark magic, and advanced magitek we've seen in the series, I'm surprised we've never seen Enemy Generals with deployment rollers.
Missed opportunity with the Argarthians, man. Biker Paladins, power armored, jet-skating generals, rifle-armed Snipers, and flamethrower/arc-caster/grenade mages would have worked so much better than just edgy albino versions of the same. What do Argarthian horses even eat?
Kain Tugwell-Fisher agarthan horses feast on the tears of casuals, duh
This is pretty much Mycen in SoV.
I did a meme run in 3H, gave Dedue every movement item + march ring. 9 move Fortress Knight is absolutely hilarious.
Billford moment
No Sedgar? SMH.
Mekkah's just salty Sedgar died in his Shadow Dragon H5 ironman from a misclick before he could change him into a general.
No Amelia either.
Big smh
The main problem with Gatrie for longterm usage in RD on Hard/Maniac is his speed cap; right away in 3-P there are Halberdiers, Warriors, and Snipers that hit 20 Speed, and as soon as 3-3 all of them will have at least 20, so with his 23 cap he won't ever be able to double most enemies in Part 3, and in late Part 3 there are even Generals, Paladins, and Sages that can hit 20 Speed. Of course he can promote to get over the Speed cap and let him double everything, but the GMs only get access to one crown before 3-11, and most other units can make better use of that crown than Gatrie, while without using a crown it'll take about all of Part 3 to get Gatrie enough levels to promote without a crown, and even then he might not get enough if you play remotely fast (like just fast enough to hit the BEXP turn count limits), as most maps will have him lagging behind missing out on combat and so that combined with his inability to ORKO most enemies will limit his EXP gain.
Then comes Part 4, and his doubling problems are still not solved. He can do alright in 4-P if he can get one more levelup of Speed after promotion, as 26 Speed will allow him to double all the Paladins and Generals here that cap out at 22, but then he will be utterly useless in 4-3's desert. Then in 4-1 and 4-2, the HWS trio can hit 25 Speed, so Gatrie will need quite a few level ups after promotion to double most enemies, which since he probably won't be promoting until 3-11 or 3-E or maybe even the start of Part 4 with active usage, can be difficult for him to get even if you keep getting Speed levelups. Then in 4-4 the HWS shoot up to 28 Speed, so even if you level him enough to cap Speed by here he can start missing out on doubling again, and even the Generals can be as high as 27, so Gatrie can miss out doubling them too if you haven't gotten him a lot of levels post-promotion before here. Then for endgame Gatrie does well in 4-E-1 if you get his Speed capped, where he can then double all the Generals there and can use the Hammer. Then his durability and ability to use the Wishblade or forged Hand Axes + Luna makes him good for taking on Red Dragons in 4-E-3, but then he is lackluster in the rest of endgame, with his lackluster Resistance and inability to double the Spirits and the endgame bosses.
Overall he won't ever be your big juggernaut on Hard, but Gatrie's main strength in RD is that he makes a really solid filler unit for most of the game that will be able to hold his own with little investment; as long as he gets a few levels here and there, whenever you have extra slots available after all your primary units are fielded you can just throw Gatrie in and he will be able to contribute without requiring much attention. Even if he is not promoted he can still contribute in the first set of Part 4 maps, as non-SM enemies don't get fast enough yet to double him at his tier 2 Speed cap, while his tier 2 bulk lets him still handle a few rounds of combat. In the second set of Part 4 maps though he is done if he isn't promoted by then, as enemies will double him with his tier 2 cap and 2RKO him easily.
Maybe it's just me, but I'd put Gatrie in either B tier or A tier, as it can be really easy to level him up and promote him before Part 4 if you take your time.
@@h0m3st4r Gatrie often lagging behind the other GMs after the first few turns of a map combined with his inability to ORKO most enemies on Hard makes him level up slowly (he probably won't even average a level each map if you don't go out of your way to slow yourself down or give him explicit favortism). I think B tier might still be justifiable though considering his great reliability and the fact he requires so little investment to be a solid contributor that is hard-pressed to die throughout all of Part 3 and at least the first half of Part 4 maps, but A tier is definitely pushing it unless you're playing on Normal (where then Gatrie's Speed cap doesn't prevent him from doubling and he is levelling up so much faster, allowing him to be a juggernaut that one-rounds a mass of enemies on Enemy Phase).
Can we get a Sage tier list next ? Like Wendell, Pent, Izana ect. Maybe you could extend the list to include all promoted magic users so units like Leo, Cecilia and Owlyn get included.
small correction, in FE9 Tauroneo uses Swords and Lances, he can't use axes.
I had a dump strategy where i put Gatrie in the desert chapter together with Haar. Haar picked him up and threw hin into the masses of enemies and gatrie just killed everything. It took a while of animations though
In before RD Tauroneo's availability screws him over
he comes with resolve come on
Take a shot everytime mekkah says "generally."
Scrolled down looking for this comment
If you think about it, Wallace is the Gotoh character for Lyn mode
Horace?
The first time I played RD Gatrie and Titania put in serious work. I really like Gatrie as a unit
This is a minor thing but generals actually have 6 move in shadow dragon and not 5
Gangster Samurott true but everyone in that game also have higher move in general compared to other fe’s
I love your tier lists
Great tier list! I have some points where I disagree though -
Is Hannibal really below both iterations of Sheena? I know his movement is relatively worse than hers due to Genealogy doing Genealogy things, but at least he has decent combat and can do arena stuff. Especially in FE12, I cant see a reason to even touch Sheena since you can reclass almost anyone into a better general than she is. I haven't played FE3 so I guess there is the indoor lances argument, but her stats in FE12 just make me sad.
Also, Tauroneo's availability in Radiant Dawn is trash, but the Dawn Brigade is just so terrible I feel like he deserves extra brownie points for any chapter where he saves their sorry butts.
Gilbert might also be worth looking into if you come back to this list/when you finish up the tier list for every FE unit. I think another comment already said this, but he's definitely usable when he comes and if you use him, that's one less student you have to train up earlier. Resources and all that.
FE12 Sheema does have an option as a decent Parthia user if reclassed to sniper and can maybe shoot a draco down in c18 if ur nos tank doesn't have maxed out speed on Lunatic. Her other map where she may do smt is like C21 cuz of all the wyverns although her shit bulk as a sniper means she needs an angelic robe to survive the initial hit or she needs an arm scroll in general which is eh. She's also a pretty shitty Gradivus candidate quite frankly. She can do something although even mac and several other parthia candidates outclass her.
Also you forgot Mac and Dolph who start out as prepromoted generals in fe12 so I'll keep it brief. Mac has a niche in c17 as a Parthia user when reclass to sniper, he can get some easy player phase kills and EP the spear draco and OHKO in return. Basically Sheema but has an extra map for contribution. Dolph is decent siege bait since he actually has the res needed (2 personal res base) and his low luck reclassed allows him to do stuff in the lategame maps by drawing attention away. Not too good but has some uses.
One funny thing about Douglas, on HM iirc the bolting sage ORKOs Douglas in 16x which is depressing.
One thing i like to do in RD 1-6-1 is have tauroneo rescue a unit like micaiah or meg. He can knock a bunch enemies down to extremely low health to feed everyone else. In 3-13 i find he is fairly useful to rescue the halberdier in the lower section so you can more effectively choke the point.
I think POR Taureno deserves either C or B. His bulk makes him really stand out in the lategame, where most units gradually feel frailer and frailer as you approach on game. Only Ike and maybe one or two of thr cavs shares his level of durability. Resolve is not hard to activate, mages still do significant enough damage to get him to half hp if needed. If he only faces physical units from there on, he an maintain half hp for a long time. He is also a good candidate for provoke, which makes balliste target him for low damage. This is helpful, especially on the bridge map. While he has low defence, he can often move farther as he worries less about getting defeated. He almost always gets close enough to do good on most maps. Taureno can even take on one of the flanks in endgame by himself if needed.
Is there a reason you skipped out on horace?
I think Mekkah should use all the tiers as to compare how good are the class amongst it's tiers.Because i feel like it's just hard to see how good would a character be against others just like him. idk, just me.
How about everyone is bad and not worth using in a class? Intsys is incredinly stubborn in repeating the same mistakes any games in a way that is truly unique. Check the history of any other SRPG, they are all much better at nerfing broken classes and buffing weak ones.
Where Horace ):
More context on how bad Lorenz is, he has way worse stats to Horace, who you forgot to add. And he joins 8 chapters earlier than Lorenz.
Lorenz has +2HP, -4STR, -9SKL, -2SPD, -5LUK, equal defenses compared to Horace. His hit rate is in the 60's on endgame enemies with the most accurate weapons, and his only support is Caeda who he can't cap supports with or keep up with. He can't even rely on Parthia because he's half way to A rank as a horseman. Even his bulk is really bad because endgame generals QUAD him and swarm mages 2 shot him. It's really bad.
Can you do a dark mage tier list at some point? So that would be like Salem, Raigh, Canas, Pelleas, Niime, etc. It might be kinda small since there are only so many dark mages and some like Hubert were in your magical boys tier list, but it'd be cool to see someone like Raigh or Pelleas (who you didn't put in your Est tier list) get discussed in one of these.
I like Tauroneo in the tower in Radiant Dawn. Pretty good Wishblade candidate, and you get Imbue on him, and he's basically unkillable, which is pretty nice.
Is this finally time for some Gilbert appreciation?
In my experience (pitfall aaaaaa) Gatrie is pretty alright longterm. I've brought him to endgame three times and he's held up well. Lack of mobility is a big minus and he doesn't double by that point, but he still does quality damage and his bulk is great.
"It's mostly Nephenee's fault"
Excuse me? You best not be going after my girl.
Nephenee suffers from 'Nephenee syndrome'
To be specific, Nephenee Syndrome is an unofficial term for when people insist that a unit is good because in their playthroughs, they always end up putting a lot of focus into them, even though most units would be good when given that level of focus (especially if that unit is a cute girl). Nephenee certainly isn't the worst character in Path of Radiance, but since she has a cool design and is a playable Soldier, a lot of people figure "oh, man, I have to use this girl" even if they'd probably be better off with someone else.
I can imagine Tauroneo being useful in FE9 Maniac 0% growths, but I'm skeptical. He's not completely useless in Hard 0% growths, but he does relatively little. Maniac does have more call for dealing with lots of strong enemies, and in that respect his relatively good per-hit damage and bulk might be worth using relative to characters who stop doubling in the transition from Hard to Maniac. On the other hand, even with Resolve active he's probably not going to double because his base Speed isn't good enough (iirc he'll go from 13->19, which is the same as Geoffrey, who doesn't double consistently on Hard). And most chapters from 21 onward really emphasize mobility (or being able to use a siege tome).
What about Dolph and Macellan from FE12?
Fe3 Sheena Belongs a bit higher IMO. Only her and General Draug can use Gradivus Indoors, which has some merit to it. But then again, they are still bad with the movement penalty.
"I use bad units often"
Then train Roshea.
Do it
Parthia exists
Please
I just wanna see a trained roshe lol
comment aged poorly
@@Mekkkah very poorly
ok absolutely biased opinion lmao but Xenoblade stream when
Ya he needs to play it after it came out on switch. I need to finish it for that matter aswell
Mitch Epstein So good man finish it whenever you get the chance. Def in my top 10 games of all time. Now I’m trying to get Xenoblade 2 and Torna.
Brom is the one true wielder of the Urvan.
I used Wallace recently in my FE7 HHM Terrible Units Only run(i have some vids up of this) and...
he was the worst unit of the lot overall. yes, worse than Lyn, worse than *Rebecca*.
ya'll don't know the pains of actively using a 5 mov unit around lategame, one that even gets doubled on occasion and doubles nothing in return and thus kills nothing in one-round, and happens to be at the forefront of taking status staves at 90-100% accuracy in chapters where those status staves are only getting more and more common.
my dude was useful for handling a few reinforcements in 28x at best, and a hardcore liability in most chapters at worst, even with all the feeding in the world to give him levels. he does not deserve to be above the lowest possible tier.
28x isn't even the best example for usefulness of an unit, because that chapter is made for the purpose of train Nino, few enemies with 1-2 range and a lot of enemies with low resistance.
Duessel should be on this list, even though he is a Great Knight. He fits the archetype.
Pirate and Berserker tier list next?
Mekkah at least ended the recording at a reasonable time.
I feel like if IS made more defend maps these would be a million times better
The issues with generals is that while defense is important, it takes a backseat to movement and speed. If you cant keep up with the frontline or double/not get doubled, you will be promoted to the bench in short order.
This is true but in a lot of games you can give them a ride on your mount and rescue drop or have them as a backpack to switch to on the fly. If your map has you fighting waves of foes as you walk or the terrain is narrow, they're not a bad option. If you gotta haul ass, they're less helpful.
@@skeith804 I dont know how it was pre gba games but you couldn't rescue generals in those games or the tellius series with alot of units, they were just too heavy. Oswin from fe7 as a knight is at 14 con and he gets +2 on promotion. I'm pretty sure no one save maybe florina could pick him up at that point and she loses aid on promotion. This would change in awakening and fates with pair up. As for holding choke points it's a good idea in theory but falls apart due to the fact most maps dont have a lot of choke points that one unit can easily hold. It is also not helped by the fact that by mid game enemies are getting silver weapons and there are more fliers and magic users on maps. Generals can be great early game units, but eventually so many different factors will force them into being more of a liability.
Gatrie's RD caps are so frustrating, because he could be legitimately great, low move aside, if his caps were better.
B2 Sheema - S tier:
Sheema looks unappealing on paper but in reality actually has a lot of things going for her. First FE3 enemy quality is pretty poor and with a killer lance she'll actually double 90% of enemies in the game. Armors in this game are the only units with access to Lances indoors which are some of the games most difficult maps and the Gradivus is the only lance in the game with 1-2 range that can double giving her a strong niche against one of the most common late game enemies, dragons. Her hp is low but is actually high enough to survive a hit from a dragon which is about as good as most of your only units and her high defense also let's her tank hits from devil axe enemies. Unlike Doga she doesn't need to promote so she doesn't steal a valuable knight crest giving her much less opportunity cost than other units. She'll need speed wings but no one else really wants them since they can just grow speed with starshards anyways. She also has great utility as she gives support units to Samson who is another really good unit with some of the highest bases in the whole game.
You mention something that I feel like isn't talked about enough in unit viability, the opportunity cost of their promotion and weapon type.
Units that share promotion items kinda should be compared in that context, as should units able to take advantage of untapped weapon types.
I feel like there's an assumption that every unit you use just promotes, when in some games, the second or third of a particular item can come super, super late. Some units can still compete without promoting, but a lot more absolutely tank in viability if they have to sit at Tier 1 for 6 or 7 maps.
@@aprinnyonbreak1290 I do think this gets talked about a lot regarding the FE7 Cavs and Oswin. Knight Crests are more spread out compared to most other promotion items, so using more than one of each can often be a game of weighing the costs and benefits of, say, promoting Sain over Kent in Lyn Mode (assuming you play it) or vice versa, or other similar choices.
It's definitely not something you see DS-onward, though, since every class uses the same promotion item a la FE5 but the rarity of Master Seals isn't as pronounced.
This is so sad... Can we buff Generals? Seriously though, please give them something, bring back "all weapons allowed" generals or make them more available, just do something.
They need normal move like all the other classes have. Sustain and/or DR would work too. Maybe give them heal utility.
High damage, very tanky but slow and vulnerable to magic.
IS can do a lot with this class. Sad indeed.
They already have, in both Conquest and Three Houses. In Conquest, they can one-shot the frail enemies, while not getting doubled by them thanks to Wary Fighter; debuffs and health draining is what keeps them balanced, but they can still be useful, more than in any other game in the series. Chokepoints abound, and the support of flying units can help them get around the map.
In 3H, protection stacking is very effective if you haven't set up some kind of vantage + wrath + retribution combo. You're not doubling a lot of enemies, so might as well get doubled but never take any damage. Rescue, warp and stride help make their mobility issues less impactful, and gauntlets help make their damage output high. Sure, they get destroyed by magic, but you can play around that.
Generals/FKs in recent games aren't the most broken classes ever, and as metas progress they will eventually get replaced in favor of better mobility units, but they're not terrible like in past games.
@@Iriswhatiris Not enough. They need MOREEEE!!! They need to be... Perfect.
@@goncalocarneiro3043 Amen.
Just give them your boots and speedwings guys. Live your dreams.
Mekkah gatrie's general speed cap is 23. Its the same as soren so if capped soren can't double, nether can gatrie. That means most things past the half way point of part 3 probably won't be doubled.
As a marshal, gatrie has a speed cap of 31 which isn't enough to double generals in the tower or any of the spirits.
I think Soren has the same problem as Gatrie, so that's not really helping Gatrie's case.
@@Mekkkah exactly. I see a lot of people claiming he should be higher in the teir list but he has a serious doubling issue once he caps that really hinders his long term viability.
I was just adding some context to what you were saying about gatrie and his speed problems.
I believe Sheema joins after you give Gotoh the Star Spheres, so she doesn't get to benefit from those. (Unless you missed one and aren't going for the true ending.)
I think FE3 Sheena is better personally. You can just slap the star orb on her, have her fight the loads of easy enemies next chapter that can't kill her, she maxes everything, and you got a solid gradivus user for the end-game chapters. Her FE12 version is terrible though.
This may be a stupid question but if you were to do a thief tier list how would you evaluate lara and would you include the outlaws and ninjas from fates. With lara would you primarily look at her thief utility and how good she is as a thief or would you primarily focus on her dancing utility because you cant ignore the dancing utility but it's weird to evaluate her dancing utility when you're focusing on thieves. Then there are the outlaws and ninjas from fates they have lock touch which make them the closest classes to thieves in fates or do you think they're too removed from normal thieves to be included in the architype.
Hey, mekkah! You forgot to turn off your stream yesterday. We hung out on youtube until it was turned off, it was pretty fun!
When I played FE7 for the first time, I had Oswin carry my game to the penultimate level. Couldn't kill the boss with anybody there. I was like twelve years old and unfamiliar with the genre. I kind of want to backup my save and release it to the internet for people to attempt beating the game with my hilariously imbalanced party.
Same,i basically used Marcus and oswin to kill everybody,ended with pent and jaffar dying and having to resort on athos to beat the game
This but with FE12 and Wolf. It was basically Mangs ironman run. Except everyone died by the Michalis chapter and I got softlocked by the Swarm mages.
No Horace?
RD Gatrie is basically mountless Haar with better speed and lower caps
Brom carried my noob ass in the last chapter in Path of Radiance hard, he tanked two whole turns from Ashnard giving me time to finish him off with birbman
You know, it only just dawned on me that Awakening and Fates didn't have any pre promoted generals at all. How odd.
Anyways, of these pre promoted generals, Sheema is probably my favorite. I played Book 2 of FE3 recently, and it was just so fun having her go ham with the Gradivus. Ditto with Lorenz in Book 1. I had Lorenz massacre Michalis' entire army with the Gradivus and Starsphere.
Gatrie was also pretty great in RD as well.
You forgot Horace, Dolph, and Maccelan btw.
I would argue that Hannibal is probably better than Arden, because Hannibal at the very least has the decency to join as a Level 20 pre promoted general, and you can argue that he is at least somewhat useful against the three headed draco rider assault at the end of Ch. 9. You stick him in the home castle and have him go to town on the draco riders that try to take the castle. It's not like you wanna have him fight Areon anyway. Arden on the other hand is only useful in getting the Pursuit Ring. While it is a bigger contribution overall, can you really consider this hidden event as part of Arden's viability as a unit?
Awakening and fates have almost no pre promoted characters all together, so that’s not too surprising.
@@jonahj9519 Yeah there's only like a few pre promoted characters in Awakening and Fates, and I don't really understand why.
@@gregster1016
It's because of the emphasis on unit customization in Awakening and Fates making characters prepromoted removes the secondary promotion path which removes a part of character customization
Which game are you playing in the background?
Best tier list ever
Okay, how the hell is FE3 Lorenz below Wallace? FE3 Lorenz is competent at base, has an actual niche as being your only decent indoor-Gradivus-user, and is in a game that comparatively isn't as mount-dominant. Wallace is incompetent at base, has no niche, and plays in a supremely mount-dominant game. FE3 Lorenz ain't great, but he's at least D-tier for what he does.
Actually, for that matter, why is FE3 Lorenz below FE11? Literally the only thing FE11 Lorenz has on him is Parthia as a Sniper and even that's seen as a crappy option. FE3 Lorenz doesn't get one-rounded by half the enemy roster at base.
Jokes on FE11 Lorenz, he's in class set B where Sniper doesn't exist for him. He's stuck as a Horseman
@@typhooncarter Ah right, yeah, mixed that up with some FE12 Generals where Sniper is their best option to do anything (i.e. Macellan).
Why FE12 Horace isn't here again?
Which hack is playing in the corner? Looks like it has some interesting characters, wouldn't mind checking it out
I can understand why people don't like using Generals, what with their abysmal movement range and low speed. Do note, though, that speed isn't really the point of a General in...well, general, and anti-armor weapons aren't very durable or easy to come by. So, for slower, more methodical players, Generals do just fine. For faster players, you're better off with Wyvern Lords instead.
I don't think Gilbert is good but I do think he's over hated. People hate him outright because of his character, regardless of whether his utility as a unit can be salvageable. Not to mention he replaces Dedue in Hunting by Daybreak so he gets a lot of extra hate for taking screen time away from one of the Blue Lions core to Dimitri's arc.
FE4 is the game of hating enemy/bosses with great shield, but your own playable general can't keep up with the cavalry lol
I don't like Gilbert because in my maddening run of hunting by daybreak he was just one more rng mess struggling to survive along with my completely screwed dimitri.
@@gameboyn64
Blue Lions was my maddening route as well. But honestly I don't think Gilbert was any problem at all. If your house was good then you shouldn't really need to move Gilbert; he'll be safe in his corner with Ashe. RNG is a thing but idk how Dimitri could end up bad enough.
@@l.n.3372 gilbert had trouble dealing with poor hit rates on the thieves and assassins who hit back with non negligible damage. Because my dimitri was atrocious he had to aggro some of the enemies away as byleth simply couldn't handle everyone. My sad dimitri was str spd and def screwed hard and i even went brigand wyvern rider. He basically got 2 rounded by the thieves who all had pass.
@@gameboyn64 the best way to make Gilbert useful in HBD is for Ashe to carry him a lance and a Silver Shield with which he actually becomes a competent unit
At least they have nice beards
I like Generals because of the cool GBA animation
The General Class Is Bad In General.
I use a Master Crown on Tauroneo to help in 3-13
Xenoblade music hype
RD Gatrie in C. Pfffff, come on. Very good candidate for one of the best armors in the series, and I’d wager of the RD lance specialists the only one flat out better is Aran and possibly Geoffrey, but once both are in the same place if I recall mounted movement bonus isn’t present in tower. (For the pals, not fliers)
I'm surprised that Dussel isn't on here. Yes, he is mounted, but he is a promoted armored unit with high hp, str, and defense, but low otherwise
Duessel qualifies as an upgraded version of a paladin.
Thanks Mekkah !
Does the black knight not count?
I love me my sheema, I wish her str wasn't equal to that of her troops ;-;
Give em all the boots
You forgot the S+ rank Gilliam!
I like Fire Emblem.
Berserkers baby!!
XENOBLADE MUSIC
Xenoblade stream when Mekkah :D
I'd comment something about Berwick Saga, but there's not really a unit that fits the archetype, so I won't
If generals just had more move maybe they wouldn't be benched so often
Move is part of the problem but honestly a lot of it is just they not really that great statwise either in most cases.
@@boredomkiller99 the problem is the general overvalue of defense in fire emblem. In most games the average defense stat is significantly lower than the other ones. The devs are terrified of you getting to TINK everything and so put a dozen weaknesses to the armors. And on top of it, they are balanced around Enemy boss generals, and the fact that you need to have a way to deal whit them even if your mage died.
Tge result is low speed, low res, arnorslayers existing and low mov. That's trading 1 good point for 4 bad ones.
And this is easily solved by just having more enemy mages or bringing back the minimum of 1 damage that was on Genealogy.
Speed commenting amelia is bad
Damn, that’s ruff
Mekkah i know you're secretly an Amelia fanboy.
Wallace is one of the best knight crests in LHM and one of the best green units in other modes
Deserved higher than D smh
Playing Lyn Hard Mode gives you Unchained Florina and Lucius.
Knight crest outdated, Paladin overrated.