@@Monk_from_RainWorld tbf the spy-cicle has a pretty big downside if the enemy knows what they are doing, def not in the Darwin's level of stupid, the razor back at least has a counter (spy has a gun).
6:58 As an engineer main THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS!!! I swear to god almost every homewrecker pyro I've seen would rather use their big hammer then kill the frenchman
I'd say it applies to engies as well. Maybe it's just me, but having the crazy man with creepy goggles shoot you with a shotgun usually causes much more trouble than having to reapply the sapper
@@aeolianthecomposer Same goes for Pyros honestly, I have in many occasions made scouts and spies eat shit as a pyro because they think "ha he is only going to W + LMB" only for me to then pull out my Shotgun and dome them. Range is an option and living is more valuable than blindly playing their game.
I love how wacky all of pyro's melees are. You've got axes, rakes, axes FROM THE FUTURE!!!, Molten rocks, a car battery on a stick, a rock axe, a *mailbox* , a sledgehammer, an eletric sign, and their own five-digit salute
I loved that time when heavy said "It's sapping time!" and proceeded to keep sapping the sentry and then do the spy cra- wait... Isn't that just a spy?
But it feels so good to finally get use out of it... mist of the time its just "i switched if the power jack for this?" But when i destroy a sapper... more dopamine then getting sick airblast jump
One thing to emphasize is that the Homewrecker isn't overpowered. It's just linear, boring and unfun to play against. It's exactly like how Darwin's Danger Shield isn't OP, but just annoying for Pyros. They're a direct counter to your class while having no interesting counter play. They're a "lol you suck now" option.
they could make it so that it just disables the sappers doesnt destroy sappers so what i mean is once u sap a building its slowly getting destroyed but lets u hit it with the homewrecker it just stops destroying the building but that building wont function until the sapper is removed
Proposed change that is more complicated but also kinda interesting: What if it just *disables* the sapper in one hit? Not completely destroying it. The sapper still remains on the building, so the building stays non-functional, and the engineer is required to hit it once (or twice, with the jag) to fully remove it, but the building will stop losing HP. This wouldn’t completely undo a spy’s hard work of taking down the nest, but it would still make the homewrecker a reasonable melee for pybros to take.
Aw crap, I just commented a similar idea independently but you beat me to it! Mine was: - +80% damage against buildings - Disables buildings for 1 second on hit - -30% damage against players This also works against sentries, which makes it a way more viable demolition weapon, too The +80% is because +100% means double the damage an engineer's wrench does, so this keeps it as a two hit on the sapper without making it useless against other buildings or having hidden stats.
wait that's actually perfect. The spy still does his job in that the rest of his team can swarm in and take advantage of the sapper, but the sentry will still be saved if the engineer returns to his sentry before the spy's team does.
@necroseus The Sapper is classed as a building with 100 Health, meaning that a +50% damage against buildings is the highest you can go without one shotting it.
As someone that loves the homewrecker and Pyrbro y'know what? I like that change, 2 hits is fine AND also some knockback resist to be able to be a menace to other buildings? Yeah I'll take it, thank you !
Yeah, I always thought that the idea of an anti building weapon for Pyro was great. But as things are now, it is usually easier to destroy a building with M1 than with the homewrecker. Especially when pushing a nearby sentry, I have no confidence that (with the knockback) I will be able to get into melee range at all; not to speak of getting in a second hit before being torn up...
@@gabrielhuschenbeck5637Yeah honestly the only viable sentry busting tool the Pyro has is the Dragon’s Fury thanks to the fact that it has more range and DPS, as well as penetration that can also attack the engineer behind it. It’s genuinely one of the reasons I main that weapon as Pyro.
You see, I don't think the knockback is the only problem, but it's also the amount of damage we take in every time a sentry hits us I once tried destroying a sentry that was right around a corner in 2Fort, it was close enough for me to destroy it with the homewrecker, but the launched missiles killed me before I could even touch the sentry.
1:51 This is actually a really good point. I hate when serious players try to make casuals feel bad because they play a "low skill class/playstyle/loadout". Just have fun?? Its a video game, thats what its for???
It's funny too, because the most played class that everyone loves is not that high skill to begin with, outside of a movement mechanic that you don't even need to master to be good at the class. I'd say the general opinion of Pyro is the longest running bandwagon the game has seen (with the next longest being the hatred of Minis).
@@trainershade1937 As a pyro main, thank you so much. I'm tired of being called slurs and a "no skill wm1 noob" every time I try to enjoy one of the weakest classes in the game. Even funnier considering I play combo pyro, and they STILL try and gaslight me into thinking that flare combos and reflect jumping are "skilless." Give me a break.
Though the draw of the homewrecker is the instant sapper removal, because if that's turned into 2 hits now you have no reason to use it over the Neon because the neon can annihilate a wet enemy meanwhile the only classes that melee buildings are trolldier and demoknight because it's always better to just shoot it.
@@ReikuYin I adore playing Pybro honestly, easily my favourite way to play TF2 just ahead of Medic. The number of clutch moments and get-down-mister-president saves is completely addicting.
Or you could use the red tape recorder which will do much more long-term damage if the pyro is not fast enough, forcing them to stand very close to the building, reducing their efficiency massively. Also note that contrary to engineers, pyros don't get the very loud signal that a sentry is being sapped. They need to see it, register it and then act in consequence. That's potentially an extra second of down time, which is absolutely huge in a fast-paced game like TF2
I'd say the Homewrecker's balance is just as polarizing as something like the Danger Shield. Screws over one class extra hard and nothing else. I say this as someone who plays a defensive Pyro who rarely gets use out of it (either I kill the Spy before then or the Sentry gets overwhelmed immediately).
@@Jontohil2Ur changes are reasonable Tho friendly pyro and the spy If they work together Will wreck level 3 sentry pretty fast And ruin the engi in the process
@@Jontohil2 I remember when it was even more of a scourge - instead of fucking over Pyro it fucked over Sniper's most reliable, consistent counter: itself. Made it so you couldn't be quickscoped with its bullet resistance AND health boost to 150, meaning that if the enemy's sniper equipped it you were basically forced to equip it yourself to stay on an even playing field. 'course it's not very good design-wise these days either it's just a little bit weird how it's been a bugbear in TF2's design for so long.
While I agree that the TTR (Time To Remove) on the sapper on the Pyro's end is indeed quite fast and somewhat similar to a Danger Shield feel against spy, and I could reasonably see there being a swing speed penalty, I'm not sure if bumping it up to more hits to remove is as great as advertised. First of all: While this point doesn't mean much from a gameplay enjoyability stance, I feel it should be said. The Homewrecker's main identity is its quick sapper removal, because unless you come across stray teleporters or buildings in general (with a medic for sentries), the whole more damage to buildings thing doesn't really come into play. Especially since you're pyro, a class who generally doesn't want to be completely alone, in enemy territory, save for ambushes. But then why would you equip the homewrecker over the other options, which leads to my second point. Second point being: The Pyro's melee arsenal is actually quite vast, in terms of variability for the playstyle. If you choose to equip the Homewrecker, you lose out on enhanced mobility from the Powerjack, or the combo potential of the Axestinguisher, or even in the unlikely scenario of you running gas passer or being on a map with water, the ambush capability of The Neon Annihilator. I could even possibly make a case that the Third Degree is a viable weapon, especially if you are ambushing a medic/getting ubered to go take out their medic. Pyro giving up this wealth of options for better sapper removal, which relies on there being a Spy on the other team, an Engineer on yours, and if that engineer is capable of holding their own against the spy or not. While I agree that it leans slightly more towards a Danger Shield approach of crippling a class, I don't think it's AS bad as it's played out to be in the video (Which was very good btw.) Third possible point: While this one is kind of just me spitballing, if we were to compare both the Homewrecker and the Neon Annihilator in terms of how versatile they are, I'd reckon the Neon Annihilator would be a better option than the Homewrecker if you wanted something more well-rounded. As previously mentioned, the Homewrecker's extra damage to buildings doesn't really offer much in terms of actual gameplay, and so its main identity revolves around sapper removal. While the Neon Annihilator removes sappers slower than it, it also comes with a more useful upside of more damage against wet opponents, despite the requirements to achieve making your opponent wet. Although I'm speaking for keeping the 1-hit removal on the Homewrecker, I don't think it's very balanced in its current state and agree the TTR is too fast to the Engineer's. TLDR; I agree that the speed difference is quite egregious, comparatively, but I feel that removing the ability to destroy sappers in 1 hit is maybe not the right way to go about it. I would propose a significant swing speed reduction, but I don't balance or design games so uh, take it with several grains of salt. If anybody has anything they want clarification on, do say! While I am making a case against some of the points in the video, I do not like to argue for the sake of arguing, so I'd like it if any replies could be civil disagreements/counterpoints. Love your vids btw Jonto! I main medic personally, so you're my worst enemy. Thanks for the intel to avoid you over these few years >:)
Great points. I've played pybro a long time (nearly 4500 sappers removed on my homewrecker), and here are some things I've noticed by playing it so much. TDLR, the weapon's drawbacks are: 1. It's very situational to the players on your team and enemy team as well as the map. 2. Requires the spy to choose to make contact with the engie's buildings in the first place 3. Doesn't help in any way against demo or heavy. You can counter a pybro pretty easily, it just requires you to switch classes. 4. No alert sound for sappers, meaning you have to pay attention and stay close to an engie nest to even get use from the weapon. 5. Very low damage against players. (49 dmg per hit) 6. Building damage doesn't matter very much. 7. Can't repair with the homewrecker. I explain in more detail below. 1. Homewrecker is an extremely situational weapon compared to pyro's other melee weapons. There has to be an engie on your team and at least one other spy on the enemy team to get any use out of it. I would also add that homewrecker gets more use depending on what map you're playing on too. Intel and control point maps are where most pybros like to hang out in because it's where you'll find the most engie players. Payload and koth maps not so much. Maps with a ton of chokepoints or few flank routes are also easy for pybro players, but of course very open maps are bad for pyro. 2. If you protect an engie nest, you can't reliably protect the rest of your team. If you protect the rest of your team, you can't reliably protect the engie. You're making a trade-off. So if you think about it, as a spy, if there's a pesky pybro that won't allow you anywhere near the nest, you can just ignore the nest and go for other enemy players. Vice versa if the pybro is constantly moving alongside his other teammates. Basically just go where the pybro isn't, get some kills, and the whole homewrecker thing will be a non-issue for you. The homewrecker isn't worth anything if the pybro is a mile away from the engie's buildings, looking for you in a place you aren't even in. So get the pybro away from the buildings, or avoid him entirely. 3. Demoman exists. If you, as a spy cannot get into a nest and sap it due to a pybro, then go demoman and sticky spam. The pybro can't reliably deal with stickies if you spam them at the nest. Even if they have a scorch shot, it won't be very effective. (scorch shot is NOT the silver bullet against stickies like everyone keeps saying) Heavy is also pretty good at killing pyros, if you really only want the pyro dead. He's pyro's hard counter because of his hitscan weaponry. Homewrecker is not useful at all here. 4. Pyro doesn't get alerted like engie does to a sapper being placed. It takes at most 8.64 seconds to get to a sapper in time (if building is lvl3, less if the building is lower level. You really don't get much time to remove a sapper. This means that anytime a pybro isn't paying attention to the engie's buildings for more than 8.64 seconds, you're risking that a building can be destroyed by a sapper from a very sneaky spy. This means that you're kind of stuck into sticking to a general area that is about a 4-6 second walking distance from the nest if you want to get use out of the weapon. And when you're confined to a zone to play around in, the enemy can easily go around you. 5. Homewrecker is just a bad option against enemy players, doesn't really need to be said. 6. You don't get much use out of the 100% damage to buildings aside from the rare instance of being near a badly-placed mini-sentry. It does 130 damage per hit to buildings, meaning the mini is the only building you can destroy in one hit. The other buildings it's two hits, but can be even more if the enemy engie is repairing the building. Enemy engies normally don't place their stuff in melee reach. Normally just using your flamethrower is better anyway to destroy a building because the flames go through the building and kill the engie repairing it. Even with a knockback resist, attacking a sentry with a melee weapon will most likely still get you killed. 7. You can't repair with the homewrecker. So if you get rid of a sapper and the sentry is left at 15 health, you have to hope and pray that the building doesn't get deleted by the time the engie comes back to repair it. I disagree with the video because you should view this from the homewrecker pybro's perspective. Yeah sure it's annoying when a pybro unsaps the sapper you placed, but it's annoying to a pybro when your team has no engies. It's annoying to a pybro when the enemy team has no spies. It's annoying to a pybro when the spy is avoiding you all the time. It's annoying to a pybro when you play through 5 entire matches and you don't get a single sapper removed or a single engie buddy to play with, and you're forced to play regular pyro again. And I didn't even mention the boredom that a lot of pybro mains have to go through, (Boredom/inattentiveness is the #1 self-inflicted weakness of pybro). Yet you don't hear pybros complaining very much about this. And the reason why is because there are soooo many more actual spy mains than actual pybro mains out there so the pybro player's voices get drowned out. And when I say pybro main, I mean people that are REALLY commited to it, not just someone who dabbles in it from time to time. The homewrecker is a situational weapon that rewards attentiveness on the pyro's part and punishes a spy's lack of strategy in dealing with a nest. (Sometimes the best thing is to not even attack the nest at all.) It's only useful in specific circumstances that does very well in those circumstances, but fails in all other metrics compared to pyro's other melee weapons. In my time as a pybro, the best spy players that gave me the most headache were the ones that never showed themselves to me and actively avoided me to kill my other teammates. In doing that, it effectively pits me against the spy's team in an uneven defensive fight. So what I'm trying to say is that if the homewrecker annoys you, and you're playing against a homewrecker pybro, all you need to do is kill his teammates, and then he will wither on the vine. Without any support from his team, the pybro is toast against any pushes your team makes. You just have to not fight him directly, and instead fight him indirectly. That, or just switch classes for a moment to get rid of the nest and the pybro. So yeah. The homewrecker is not overpowered at all. It's just something that forces you to change up your usual spy playstyle, while at the same time handicapping the pyro to an extent outside what the stats on the weapon say. If you're an attentive player that tries to be aware of what your engie is doing, and where his buildings are, and the routes an enemy can take to surprise attack him, and all that...the homewrecker *may* be useful. Emphasis on *may* be, because again you have to meet the prerequisites, unstated in the weapon's stats to even use it. If you tend to be an inattentive player, who constantly can't stand still and just has to go out and kill enemies, then the weapon is quite literally crap. You could use any other pyro melee. You can argue at that point that you aren't even a pybro anymore. (This is why there is a saying amongst pybros that the homewrecker alone doesn't make you a pybro. The commitment to your team's health and a drive to be a teamplayer is what makes that.) Honestly, I think if more people actually saw what it's like for a committed pybro main to play the game, they'd understand why the homewrecker is fine as is. The weapon already has a bunch of drawbacks, it's just that most people aren't exactly thinking about them. And I don't blame them. Pybro is a very niche playstyle in the game that's often oversimplified. Also, while I'm talking about pybro, I just want to say that as you can see from how in depth I'm going in on the psychology at play, pybro gameplay requires just as much mind gaming as spy gameplay does. That's because a class that is specialized to fight spies has to think like a spy so you can catch him before he strikes. And you have to think like a spy all while trying to defend poor pablogonzalez2009 from being backstabbed, who has no self-preservation, and at the SAME time you have to worry about projectile spam. Pybro can be boring like a lot of people say, but it's also extremely stressful sometimes. I could go on and on about pybro things that annoy me that nobody can relate to, but then that would make this text wall twice as long.
20% swing speed reduction could work fairly well, it is a big sledgehammer after all so it should be heavier. Then so its player DPS isn't atrocious reduce the damage penalty versus players to 15% maybe even 10%. I'm curious to see how it would look after that.
As pyro main I think the purpose should be changed, make it more of a sentry removal tool. Imagine when as pyro you actually have some chance against lvl 1 sentry
To be fair, the engie can re-heal the sentry after destroying a sapper, if a pyro removes it the sentry stays at the heath it was at until an engie comes or it's destroyed
@@realdragon well, to do that you actually have to get close to the sentry in the first place, which is the entire reason why sentries hard counter pyro; he can't even get into good range to attack them. Unless you're thinking of giving homewrecker pyros damage/knockback resistance from sentries, the homewrecker isn't going to do anything to help pyro against them.
Glad I found your channel recently been getting back into playing Spy more often! Quite a few "fuck that 9th class specifically" weapons like the razorback or darwin's shield against pyro
4:24 not meant to be insulting because I love the way you give insight to game mechanics but this moment made me realize that this game really has been out for 17 years now, I think TF2's birthday was also like a few days ago now that I think about it.
I enjoy playing both sides of the Pyro vs Spy rivalry. I've found using the red tape recorder (Who does this right?) feels like a good current counter to homewrecker happy pyros. To make a small callback to spy being a "versatile class" being able to be a pick/support but also a recon class, I strongly believe the red-tape recorder helps spy being the "nuisance/disruptor class". Compared to the standard downtime of a normal sapper, the downtime for buildings with the red-tape is the build time. When an engineer is taken out of commission, a pyro cannot upgrade or undo the reversed progress that a red-tape has done to any building, which I feel the red-tape excels the best at when interfering with teleporters. Red-taping multiple buildings in a nest requires ALL OF THEM to slowly rebuild themselves after they are de-sapped, which in itself takes time. As an engineer, this requires a bit of triage as the last of the buildings will very likely go down a level or two and will take more time to rebuild to max lvl than they take to simply repair. In the event that the engineer is dead or preoccupied, all buildings will likely go down to level 1 or be unbuilt if undeterred. If a pyro alone were to be guarding the nest the risk of dying or being discovered would indeed be greater if the idea was to destroy the nest, but that's shouldn't be the plan. The main tactic is too waste time, the engineer and the pybro. An engineer constantly having to upgrade as opposed to repair is more paranoid and preoccupied on building their buildings again, time that can be used to backstab their other teammates. A pybro could be stuck at spawn hammering away at a teleporter being unbuilt, but that does not mean you cannot sap-shoot-sap it to kill it on your end. A pybro guarding a nest is also one less player watching an objective where you may or may not be afterwards. Just my two-cents. Correct me if I'm at all wrong or misinformed.
I would rather we get a -25% swing speed, since the Homewrecker/Maul is a sledge hammer, which is heavy. It could also remove the damage penalty to players. Problem: Valve isn't interested in coding anything for TF2 anymore unless it is for profit. Both of the proposed changes would require a small amount of tweaks to the code, which means we will not see any changes happen unless it is with a new major update.
It wouldn't change the issue it all though, it'd still take the same amount of time to remove a sapper, you'd just end up with it being worse at destroying buildings
SPY HAS A GUN is absolutely my favourite tf2 meme and it actually improved my spy gameplay a lot. I can't believe how much people underestimate the revolver, it's crazy. Thank you for all your hard work and advices!
2:20 Personally, I like to play my own pseudo sub-class I like to call "everyone's Pybro" which is kinda like Pybroing but I stick hover around groups of people and use the Mannmelter to both extinguish team members and abuse the infinite ammo pool and range
Gigachad detected. Do you find that the Mannmelter is any kind of useful? I've never had luck with it, but I'm just a simple Medic main, and terrible at Pyro.
@@irregularassassin6380 It's more or less like Med, or battle Med to be specific. Stay close to the pack, spam your shots (mainly into groups), and reap the rewards for helping the team (by using the hammer, eating fire, or chasing off enemies with flames), only difference is the fire rate and the ranges of effect
@@irregularassassin6380 If you want to get into the habit of flex fighting with Med also I aslo made a pseudo for Med I call "War Medic" where you switch between fighting with the syringe gun (mostly Blut for self-healing), and quicly healing the team with the Quick fix
Maybe instead of making the homewrecker destroy sappers in 2 hits (because the source spaghetti doesn't allow you to do that currently and nobody wants to deal with changing the spaghetti) We could make the homewrecker have a slower firing speed so it takes longer than the engineer to destroy it, give it an animation like other sledgehammers in other games where the pyro hoists it up before slamming it, I think that would be nice and deal with the sapper problem, also buff its damage to buildings so it can actually deal with sentries, lets say a pyro goes around the corner after killing the engineer, air blasts the sentries rockets into it with the degreaser, and then hits the sentry with the homewrecker destroying it, cool right.
It can two shot any building, and 1 shot mini sentries. If you can get in range, it *demolishes* buildings. It can even kill a teleporter than an engi is repairing on the other side. 130 damage per swing is no joke
Unfortunately decreasing firing speed doesn't slow down the initial attack, it only adds downtime between repeated attacks because source engine or something
Genuinely curious, why would making it destroy sappers in two hits be impossible with source spaghetti, we already have neon annihilator which does exactly that because it does lesser damage to buildings right?
@@roloa7391 Yeah, but sappers are considered buildings in the code I believe, and if we want the homewrecker to keep its bonus building damage it will always destroy sappers in one hit.
@@largeladygaming Ok, thought that was going to be the case, not sure how would could balance it then without downgrading the homewreckers building damage buff.
How to summarize fighting against homewrecker as spy: "oh boy i planned this attack on engineer 4 hours ago i hope this pyro will not kill me!" pyro: **clicks 3 on his keyboard**
I see a lot of people in the comments saying it's just a class hate weapon so it should be nerfed. But Pyro is already supposed to counter spy so it isn't changing any dynamics unlike the Darwin's danger shield where pyro should counter sniper at close range. Also putting on the homewrecker robs you of other important melee options like the powerjack.
TF2 was never meant to be rock paper scissors. Its classes have an odd mix of general and special uses that have slight advantages and disadvantages over each other with no really intended counters. While matchups are lopsided, they are seldom onesided. Pyro's natural advantage over spy is already the biggest in the game, and the homewrecker pushes it over the edge. Also, comparing a weapon option to the meta alone is dumb.
I mean it is changing the dynamic; it goes from Spy is countered by Pyro to Spy just flat-out can't do one of their jobs which is harassing Engineers. The Homewrecker makes it that even if you backstab the Engineer and ap their buildings the Pyro guarding them that you already got past to do all that can just say no and destroy the sapper more effectively than the Engineer. In fact, giving an anti-Class weapon to a class that already counters the class is not good and I have no idea why you even said that.
*The real draw of the Homewrecker is that it can remove sappers.* No. The real draw is that I can strangify it, and call my attack swings "anti-horny bonks".
I just found your channel and I think you make some really high quality stuff! As a creator myself I can certainly appreciate the time and effort you put into your videos! Keep up the good work!
Says the spy main Edit: after careful analysis on the video and putting thought into my previous statement, i must apologise to all spy mains as this fella has proven a completely valid point.
Another idea would be making the red tape recorder viable by doubling its "health" and making it take more hits to remove. That way a spy who knows the sentry nest is well protected can opt for weakening the nest and decreasing the likelihood of it being removed. I'm not opposed to your proposal though, even though I feel like it might lessen its utility compared to the neon annihilator.
I love that idea! Not only would it make the Red Tape Recorder a semi-viable counter to Pybros (especially if the swing speed on the Homewrecker is also decreased), but it would also completely destroy the Jag. Imagine having to hit the RTR _six times_ to remove it! The Engie would have to duel the Spy, on any wrench, because they can't afford to turn their back for that long. "Oh, you want to build your nest quickly? Allow me to drown you in red tape." It would absolutely give the RTR a niche, and let it live up to its name.
The counter arguement for the homewrecker is that 1. Probably meant to be a "oh, here's a sapper, I'm gonna hit it and go being a pyro again" tool because forcing you to stay there isn't fun 2. Even if there are pybros, even they wouldn't be as receptive if it took too much time to help out 3. It's in the name, homewrecker. Rather fitting that jumps into the engineer and spy dynamic. 4. It's not even that bad. Adding 2 hits makes it so you have to give up on being a pyro which would definitely put this into a mid weapon category
While yea it's annoying that they remove sappers so quickly, I would just like to say as a pybro player by the time i get to the sentry to unsap it, it prob has 10hp Also there is a difrence between an engi saving your buildings and a pyro doing so, beacuse when engi saves them it's just a thx but whenever i save a building i'm praised beacuse the homewrecker is to save the engis who are dead and can't do it themselves. And one more thing, if it took 2 hits to destroy the sapper there would be a mutch higher chance of the pyros death as well, and the pyro using the homewrecker alredy is sacrificing his melee slot for his team
You basically lose nothing changing your melee, the powerjack gives Pyro unnecessary speed (which is insanely good, but did he seriously need it?) and everything else is for alternative Pyro play styles
@@Manny4Life948 Unnecessary speed? You're saying this on a class who's stock weapons are a flamethrower and shotgun both of which can be hilariously easily out ranged. If a Pyro is not in range anyone can turn around and walk away and Pyro will never catch up.
@@Manny4Life948 Pyro is best as a flanker. But to flank, you need to get to the flank. Scouts, Spies, and Demoknights get extra speed to traverse the map and close distance, so why shouldn't Pyro get extra speed with a risk/reward tradeoff?
I mean, I can count the number of times I have removed a sapper with the homewrecker in my 500 hours of Pyro TF2. You're really discounting the fact that the Pyro has to be aware of a bunch of stuff that it's tough for Pyro to be aware of. Pyro would either need to see the spy place the sapper (which is a bad play on the spy's part, since being seen placing a sapper is usually a quick way to get yourself killed), constantly monitor the engineer's buildings for sappers (which is a bad play on the Pyro's part, engineer does not need to be bodyguarded as hard as a Medic or a Heavy), or the Pyro needs to hear the Engineer voice line over the sound of their maniacal laughter as they watch their foes turn into bbq before their eyes (very hard). I'm pretty sure the only times I've ever actually used the homewrecker for sappers is when the engineer bothers to get on mic and tell me about a sapped building.
I'm in the same boat, I usually only saw the saboteurs when I was warned or when I passed by, I always have it equipped because I'm not used to using hand-to-hand combat.
You touched upon this slightly at the end, but I personally would say that the ramification of this are more significant than you realize. As a Pyro Main, especially one who enjoys Pybro, I am with Uncle Dane when he states that the Homewrecker is underwhelming compared to other options. It's our job to kill the spy, and that is often much better done with the speed boost of the Powerjack or the instant death from the Axtinguisher. The Homewrecker is actually fairly niche despite it being quite good at its niche. Like you mentioned, it's mainly a tool for when the Engineer is down or can't make it to their building in time, but even then you can usually count on there being more than one Engineer present. Even at it's niche, a Spy sapping a sentry in conjunction with an Über push will force the Pyro to focus the push rather than protect the engineer and deal with the sapper. Heck, a Pybro would be quite lucky to survive and have time to smack the sapper in such a scenario which I'd argue practically necessitates the one shot on Sappers despite the scenario being more rare in Casual.
Yeah, but other engineers have to hit 2 swings and actually aim at the spy to kill him, which they **can** do, but without losing buildings. Also, it's far less niche than you seem to think it is
@@aeolianthecomposer Engineers can also repair and move their buildings while the Pyro also have an opportunity cost of both his melee and his attention. And no, the Homewrecker is niche. Just really good at its niche similar to the Back Scatter which arguably is even better at its niche in comparason but both are eclipsed by Pyro's most powerful melee options.
@@aeolianthecomposer I have never seen a pybro be needed or have I been needed as a pybro. An engie who dies, is an engie who has failed because spy or no, pybro or no if that sentry was anywhere of important , it will not last long enough for that Engie to return.
Okay but hear me out... There's so many counters to Engineer's sentries that Pyro's homewrecker 1-shotting a sapper doesn't seem that unfair. The odds are so stacked against engineers when there is a competent soldier, demo, spy, or heavy on the enemy team that most of the time a sentry doesn't die to a sapper, but some explosive weapon instead. Why are we getting hung up on the homewrecker so much?
That and Pyros have low health, and you can always just ignore it unless the point is being pushed and it has to go but if that is the case then your team should be able to use that timing to help. Of course there are always exceptions to this but generally its how it works.
I personally like using the homewrecker when jet packing with the back burner, so your proposed sentry buster homewrecker fix is something I can get behind.
Spy: It may have eacaped your mind, but life isn't fair, your dear Pyro knew this, in fact he frequently sought to it! Engineer: My Pyro was a great man! Spy: Your Pyro was a SWINE
I remember one time I was playing Snakewater with Engineer. A Spy killed me and sapped my level 3 (that I had just built), and all I could do was watching my sentry slowly die. As a last desperate measure, I called out in voice chat for someone on my team to remove the sapper and save my sentry gun. Just then, a Homewrecker Pyro came running in and destroyed the sapper in one hit when the sentry had 10 health left. That was the biggest chad I've ever played with. I hope he's doing well.
One great example of how fast the homewrecker is. If I die as Spy and see our teleporter entrance being sapped at spawn, I will wait out the respawn time, change class to Pyro and delete the sapper with plenty of time to spare. It's really dumb.
As an engie main, i remember ive been bombarded on tf2s subreddit for saying that the Homewrecker is busted and should be tweaked because it straight up nullifies what is already the weakest class in the game. Pyros are so quick to whine about Snipers Darwins Danger Shield about it being a "fuck this class especially" weapon (and rightfully so), but i rarely see the same energy reciprocated about the Homewrecker. Imo there hasnt been a single time where i as an engie died to a spy and said to myself "i hate spy", because i KNOW how much spy has to avoid and go through to even get the chance at a stab, and most times i couldve avoided death by doing something different MYSELF like being more aware/checking for spies more. But to pull off a successful stab only for a pyro to insta delete a sapper is just plain stupid, regular spy checking is already really strong. Basically if the pyro has the homewrecker... just go demo or soldier honestly, like ATLEAST make it 3 hit sappers or 2 but with a tiny bit of slower swing speed, 1 hit to remove with no slower equip or swing speed is ridiculous
@@Artician Spy-cicle is actually my favorite counter weapon because it has the downside of exchanging your knife for a second of fire immunity if your hit so the Spy gets the benefit of not dying and the Pyro gets the benefit of making sure the Spy can't backstab for a bit.
Not a big fan of the rework having it -75% knockback against sentries as its not really worth it considering it'd *only* work if you have a medic, otherwise having knockback resistance would be a detriment as you cannot surf off the damage and in turn get you killed much, MUCH faster. If we were to go with the 2 hits nerf I reckon it'd be a better idea that destroying engineer buildings with any weapon stores a critical hit for the next melee swing as it would pair really well with the dragons fury melting sentries, be a better synergy with friendly medics and even punish engineers that leave their buildings behind. (Also in this case we'd nerf the neon annihilator to 3 hits for a sapper 'cause it wouldnt make much sense both taking the same time to remove a sapper)
The knockback immunity only is applied when holding it out, and since it is a melee weapon, there's no real reason to hold it out when beyond melee range. And if you really want to surf off the knockback to escape the sentry, just switch off your melee.
@@williammin8340 then just never use the melee in the first place, most of the time you're better off using the flamethrower. also it isnt "immunity" its only a 75% resistance meaning youre still gonna be pushed back a little bit still, and if someone popped you up into the air the resistance is less effective as you take more knockback in the air. The knockback resistance is pretty much useless even including the niche of having an uber considering most meds run with you into a nest making the sentry target two people at the same time, and the DPS of the flamethrower already does good job taking care of the sentry.
You wouldn't need to chance the Neon Annihilator in your scenario. The two weapons would look a lot like the (old) Ambassador and the Diamondback. Both allow(ed) guaranteed crits, but under different scenarios, and have the same base damage. The Homewrecker would be like the Diamondback in this scenario, except a lot more balanced. Pyros have a harder time getting to the back line, which is where the Engie's buildings are. Plus, the Pyro is getting guaranteed melee crits ... with no speed buff to close the distance.
Spy mains: "The homewrecker is unfair" Engie mains: "I appreciate the help Pybro but just being more vigilant with protecting the nest with your flamethrower would be more helpful, the homewrecker isn't necessary" Pyro mains: "Hmmmhr Huu Hrrrrr" ("Hammer go brrrr.")
Wild idea that I just came up with: similar to how the Escape Plan gives the Soldier Marked for Death, make the Homewrecker give Marked for Facestab-- by which I mean while deployed and for a few seconds afterwards, the arc around the pyro that is considered their back is expanded to all the way around them so you can actually backstab them from any angle.
it is true that the homewrecker is kinda unfair but it is EXTREMELY common to see a pyro not use the homewrecker because of how it has more melees to use that are more useful. Still unfair weapon tho
I found it really funny that you called the Homewrecker "a cheap middle finger", because my strange Homewrecker is literally called "A Middle Finger To Spies"
You said "The Pyro should NOT be able to destroy sappers faster than the engineer can." I disagree. Many engies spend much of the game literally sitting ON their buildings. Even that close, two hits/building takes long enough that it's still common to loose a building when they're all sapped, especially if at least one sapper gets re-applied. Unless you expect pybros to spend the entire game literally SITTING on the nest, those several seconds reaching the buildings means you'll probably only be able to save one or two of the three buildings, and (if the engie is backstabbed) they're all at 1/4 health anyway, so all your team has to do is sneeze on them to finish them off. I counter propose the following change: Homewrecker removes sappers in two hits, BUT can use flamethrower ammo to heal buildings to 75% of their full health. See the issue now? Removing a sapper in one hit doesn't mean much if the engie is dead and the building is low health. And if the engie isn't dead, there's no way a spy should be able to, with any confidence, expect to 1v2 (1v3 if you count the sentry) a nest and expect to win.
I had a similar concern, yeah. However there is an issue when someone is playing a dedicated pyro and ALSO sitting on the buildings, as it is an annoying and low effort counter to a lot of effort on behalf of the spy. This is the solution I came up with that solves both problems, let me know what you think: - +80% damage to buildings (requires 2 hits for sappers, but still eats other buildings for lunch) - Disables buildings for 1 second on hit (the sapper stops dealing damage when hit, but still needs to be removed) - -30% damage against players This way, pyros that don't get buzzed on dispenser fumes all game can still save a building in the nick of time and dedicated pybros can't be more efficient than an engineer at his own job.
@@necroseus That isn't an issue, this is like saying everyone needs a Medic Counter. A single class coming against 2 people sitting together is always going to be at a massive disadvantage, but this also means these 2 people sitting on the Sentry aren't helping the rest of their vulnerable team. You could even shoot the Pyro from outside their range. You have a gun. You can draw aggro, and if the Pyro chooses to ignore you then you can bring down the rest of their team... turning a 1v2 into a 6v2. An semi-competent Pyro sitting on defenses should set anyone approaching on fire. You're not killing the Engi and Sapping changes or not.
Ngl when I first saw the title of your video I assumed it was going to be the "Non-engi class removing sappers = unfair" argument that I usually see with the Homewrecker. I was surprised when you said you had no issue with the Homewrecker removing sappers but just how fast it removes sappers. I was also surprised at how much faster the Homewrecker could removes a single sapper. While it always felt like it was removing sappers quickly it never occurred to me that it was removing them so much faster than 50%.
What I actually think is unfair is the fact the cool-as-heck, badass design of the Maul is reserved for such a lame melee weapon of a basically melee range class :(
Alternative idea. Keep the one hit, but the hit actually damages the building, since the precision of a sledgehammer being swung with both hands by a crazy person is far less than that of a wrench in the hand of a professional. That way, if the spy drops a sapper and a shot on the sentry, Pyro runs a decent risk of destroying the sentry themselves, or leaving it extremely vulnerable to follow up damage. Just a thought, since the idea of a sledgehammer doing more damage but resulting in collateral just makes sense to me.
This would work the homewrecker dmg to allied buildings should only work when there's a sapper, then you wouldn't have trolls making the engie's life harder than it is
It's funny because out of all of the "turn of X class weapons" Spy's spycicle makes the absolute most sense amd should be buffed along with all the other knives
Hello spymain here: now there are problematic wapons in tf2 like the dimond and the razer but homewrecker is not one of them. Firsts pybros are rare casual or community. second pybros have more things to then being with the engi and watching sentrys the extinguish protect etc. Third prybros dont get a notification on the HUD think of all of the times you knew something is supped only cuz the HUD forth you are wrong about not doing anything yes its "technecly one click" but so is putting a supper pybros need to balance being on the defensive to the offensive (again pybros can fight) and noticing the sentry being sapped and there is a spy on the loose makes a difficlte dilema aither they go and kill the spy or protect the engiless nest. And lastly 5:30 saying that you like fighting pyro doesnt mean you dont hate underminding mechanics pyros are the cheat for spy they are the counter wich is diffrent anyways you are salty on the homewrecker its not even that good you take a main damege dealer and make them in to a following teletabie who protectes players
One lil hangup that i didn't notice you mention. You can't repair a building with the homewrecker, if you get to a building right before it gets destroyed from a sapper, you still have to hope and prey the enemy team doesn't take advantage.
I'd like to see Valve remove the "damage removes sappers" function from both the Homewrecker and the Neon Annihilator, then buff them both to make them slightly more reliable in their respective niches. The Homewrecker could get the Sentry Gun knockback resistance while deployed, as you suggested, and the Neon Annihilator could give increased swimming speed and longer breath duration while deployed/equipped. I'd rather have two weapons with unique niches that are strong in those niches, than have them both dilute each other by sharing a stat for no reason. Especially if that stat just makes Spy's job even more grueling, when Pyro's role for protecting his team against Spies is already to simply spycheck.
As a Pyro main, I don't agree with these changes to the Homewreaker. But that could just be me as an unsupportive pyro talking, using my Homewrecker to actually destroy enemy buildings. Because when I see a building being sapped, I don't think "MUST REMOVE SAPPER," I think "SPY. FIND SPY. BURN SPY."
![Why [TF2] has (Almost) Perfect Melee Weapons](/img/n.gif)
this is what we call a "fuck this class in particular" weapon
Same league as the razor back
Same league as Darwin's Danger Shield
Sniper has a lot of those, so... Why sp- oh wait the spy-cycle
@@Monk_from_RainWorld tbf the spy-cicle has a pretty big downside if the enemy knows what they are doing, def not in the Darwin's level of stupid, the razor back at least has a counter (spy has a gun).
@@Monk_from_RainWorld at least with the spy-cicle the spy gets punished ie no backstabs
I think the reason it's such a "Fuck You" weapon to the Spy and Engineer rivalry is because its a homewrecker, it ruins the relationship
I do not joke. As soon as you said “just like this videos spon-“ I immediately started clicking forward by 10 seconds and was VERY confused.
Gotem
Pavlov's dog moment
sponserblock my belovid
@@ooTruffle if he's your beloved WHY AREN'T YOU ADDING THAT TIME INTO FILTER??? FAKE SPONSOR JOKES CAN BE ADDED!1!! :p
@@Whoopingcoughalig DON'T that's really annoying and no they can't
At least they shouldn't be anyway
7:40 FUUUCK I DIDNT PUT ENOUGH MOSAIC ON THE ART SO IT JUST LOOKS LIKE NORMAL FANART AND NOT THE LIMITLESS FUNNY IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE NOOOOOO
That’s kind of my fault tbh, I should have intentionally shittified it further
@@Jontohil2 nah thats on me i shoulda gone more nutty wit it
Good art still 👍
nice art tho
I recently just named my Revolver SPY HAS A GUN. The description:The ninth class has a primary firearm
👏 you are now in the gun spy community👏
same
Pretty soon after I discovered how to actually play spy I got a strange revolver and also named it that lol.
@@T.TerryThePenguin-wz5lq yes
@@TheWeirdkid_64 mine is strange
6:58 As an engineer main THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS!!! I swear to god almost every homewrecker pyro I've seen would rather use their big hammer then kill the frenchman
I'd say it applies to engies as well. Maybe it's just me, but having the crazy man with creepy goggles shoot you with a shotgun usually causes much more trouble than having to reapply the sapper
@@aeolianthecomposer Same goes for Pyros honestly, I have in many occasions made scouts and spies eat shit as a pyro because they think "ha he is only going to W + LMB" only for me to then pull out my Shotgun and dome them. Range is an option and living is more valuable than blindly playing their game.
I love the sledgehammer not for the damage bonuses and sapper removal, but because it's funny to bonk people with a big hammer
literally the the entire reason why I use the necro smasher
Yes.
I love how wacky all of pyro's melees are. You've got axes, rakes, axes FROM THE FUTURE!!!, Molten rocks, a car battery on a stick, a rock axe, a *mailbox* , a sledgehammer, an eletric sign, and their own five-digit salute
same
don't forget the big lolly @@ilshail153
1:38 he said the thing!!!
I HAVE A -shotgun- REVOLVER
@@Redd56 no I HAVE A -revolver- SHOTGUN
2:41 I think ptsd from sponsorship segments is an actual thing because I just got it by almost skipping forward 10 seconds.
Not that sponsors are a bad thing
Counterpoint: You can't repair buildings with the homewrecker.
thats not a downside, thats just the lack of another upside.
No shit, that's just common sense
I love being able to repair buildings as a pyro, too bad only the homewrecker can't do that
I loved that time when heavy said "It's sapping time!" and proceeded to keep sapping the sentry and then do the spy cra- wait... Isn't that just a spy?
Pootis
Engage
@@FuromeNaviah never mind, clearly a heavy *turns around*
@@herec0mestheCh33f (heavy proceeds to pootis the living engage out of him)
That's exactly why my strange homewrecker with the sappers removed part is called "Yeah Spy, fuck you in particular".
holy fuck that stab at 2:04 is so good
professional body disposal, no evidence
Never to be found
the medigun laying on the ground:
@@AjentYTOfficial he dropped the medigun and forgot to pick it up
@@AjentYTOfficial You don't forget your medigun from time to time? It's like losing your car keys, except bigger.
Who needs the Eternal reward anyways?
But it feels so good to finally get use out of it... mist of the time its just "i switched if the power jack for this?" But when i destroy a sapper... more dopamine then getting sick airblast jump
The homewrecker isn't the only pybro weapon, but pyrosharks aren't thinking to do this.
"But when would you be, pyrosharking and have an engi building nearby for you to destroy the sapper" - TheWhatShow
@@Kyee124those 2fort engies who build in the water:
@@clownaround_town those 2fort try hard 25000 hours soldiers spamming rockets in water:
@@clownaround_town AKA Sea Turtles.
Neon annihilator + gas passer as a pybro, can probably remove big threats if needed!
0:41 When i still played tf2 & Pyro i always had this to remove sappers
One thing to emphasize is that the Homewrecker isn't overpowered. It's just linear, boring and unfun to play against.
It's exactly like how Darwin's Danger Shield isn't OP, but just annoying for Pyros. They're a direct counter to your class while having no interesting counter play. They're a "lol you suck now" option.
Pretty much this.
Another example is the spycicle
If any Sniper equips the Darwin's Danger Shield they're automatically the first ones on my shitlist.
Equip the shotgun.
The 3rd class has a melee
they could make it so that it just disables the sappers doesnt destroy sappers so what i mean is once u sap a building its slowly getting destroyed but lets u hit it with the homewrecker it just stops destroying the building but that building wont function until the sapper is removed
Proposed change that is more complicated but also kinda interesting:
What if it just *disables* the sapper in one hit? Not completely destroying it. The sapper still remains on the building, so the building stays non-functional, and the engineer is required to hit it once (or twice, with the jag) to fully remove it, but the building will stop losing HP. This wouldn’t completely undo a spy’s hard work of taking down the nest, but it would still make the homewrecker a reasonable melee for pybros to take.
Actually cool idea
Aw crap, I just commented a similar idea independently but you beat me to it!
Mine was:
- +80% damage against buildings
- Disables buildings for 1 second on hit
- -30% damage against players
This also works against sentries, which makes it a way more viable demolition weapon, too
The +80% is because +100% means double the damage an engineer's wrench does, so this keeps it as a two hit on the sapper without making it useless against other buildings or having hidden stats.
@@necroseuswhat are you talking about? A 100% damage bonus is double damage.
wait that's actually perfect. The spy still does his job in that the rest of his team can swarm in and take advantage of the sapper, but the sentry will still be saved if the engineer returns to his sentry before the spy's team does.
@necroseus The Sapper is classed as a building with 100 Health, meaning that a +50% damage against buildings is the highest you can go without one shotting it.
Gosh, the stuff you make is just so GOOD! The quality, the humor, I just love it!
As someone that loves the homewrecker and Pyrbro y'know what?
I like that change, 2 hits is fine AND also some knockback resist to be able to be a menace to other buildings?
Yeah I'll take it, thank you !
Yeah, I always thought that the idea of an anti building weapon for Pyro was great. But as things are now, it is usually easier to destroy a building with M1 than with the homewrecker.
Especially when pushing a nearby sentry, I have no confidence that (with the knockback) I will be able to get into melee range at all; not to speak of getting in a second hit before being torn up...
@@gabrielhuschenbeck5637Yeah honestly the only viable sentry busting tool the Pyro has is the Dragon’s Fury thanks to the fact that it has more range and DPS, as well as penetration that can also attack the engineer behind it. It’s genuinely one of the reasons I main that weapon as Pyro.
You see, I don't think the knockback is the only problem, but it's also the amount of damage we take in every time a sentry hits us
I once tried destroying a sentry that was right around a corner in 2Fort, it was close enough for me to destroy it with the homewrecker, but the launched missiles killed me before I could even touch the sentry.
Other wrenches- takes 2-3 hits to break a sapper.
Homewecker- oneshots sapper and calls it a day.
1:38 the funny
1:51 This is actually a really good point. I hate when serious players try to make casuals feel bad because they play a "low skill class/playstyle/loadout".
Just have fun?? Its a video game, thats what its for???
It's funny too, because the most played class that everyone loves is not that high skill to begin with, outside of a movement mechanic that you don't even need to master to be good at the class.
I'd say the general opinion of Pyro is the longest running bandwagon the game has seen (with the next longest being the hatred of Minis).
FishStickOnAStick:
why fun when you can meta
I like the amputator, it lets me roleplay as a dispenser (Yes, Demomen have E + X5 into schadenfreude me)
@@trainershade1937 As a pyro main, thank you so much. I'm tired of being called slurs and a "no skill wm1 noob" every time I try to enjoy one of the weakest classes in the game. Even funnier considering I play combo pyro, and they STILL try and gaslight me into thinking that flare combos and reflect jumping are "skilless." Give me a break.
Though the draw of the homewrecker is the instant sapper removal, because if that's turned into 2 hits now you have no reason to use it over the Neon because the neon can annihilate a wet enemy meanwhile the only classes that melee buildings are trolldier and demoknight because it's always better to just shoot it.
As a pybro, I am very sorry for the suffering I have caused you spies.
I'm still gonna keep doing it though
As a Spy player... Good.
Don't let anyone tell you how to play a class. It makes for a fun match up.. if frustrating. XD.
@@ReikuYin I adore playing Pybro honestly, easily my favourite way to play TF2 just ahead of Medic. The number of clutch moments and get-down-mister-president saves is completely addicting.
yeah same. i love my hammer
No worries, just like i keep using the Diamondback and all other annoying weapons that Valve somehow hasn't yet decised to fix
@@bruschetta7711thing is they probably never gonna fix them again.
So the only thing left is accept things the way they are
Or you could use the red tape recorder which will do much more long-term damage if the pyro is not fast enough, forcing them to stand very close to the building, reducing their efficiency massively.
Also note that contrary to engineers, pyros don't get the very loud signal that a sentry is being sapped. They need to see it, register it and then act in consequence. That's potentially an extra second of down time, which is absolutely huge in a fast-paced game like TF2
What if instead of your changes, the homewrecker dealt bleed damage for eight seconds on sappers?
A weapon to rival the L'executor
Also decrease it's damage by 80%
You forget about user instantly die after one hit
ah yes, bleeding metal
i think it should apply marked for death, but only one sapper at a time
2:35 dead ringer scout
Wtf kkkk he double jumped
Pybros singlehandedly doing damage control on the reputation of pyro players.
Pybros carry the good name of all Pyro players on their backs tbh. Anyone bashes on Pyro and everyone in the lobby has a Pybro friend LOL
I love the background music, I feel like it doesn’t get talked about enough in editing. Psychonauts especially.
I'd say the Homewrecker's balance is just as polarizing as something like the Danger Shield. Screws over one class extra hard and nothing else.
I say this as someone who plays a defensive Pyro who rarely gets use out of it (either I kill the Spy before then or the Sentry gets overwhelmed immediately).
Oh yeah the Darwin’s is equally as bad
@@Jontohil2Ur changes are reasonable
Tho friendly pyro and the spy
If they work together Will wreck level 3 sentry pretty fast
And ruin the engi in the process
@@Jontohil2 I remember when it was even more of a scourge - instead of fucking over Pyro it fucked over Sniper's most reliable, consistent counter: itself. Made it so you couldn't be quickscoped with its bullet resistance AND health boost to 150, meaning that if the enemy's sniper equipped it you were basically forced to equip it yourself to stay on an even playing field.
'course it's not very good design-wise these days either it's just a little bit weird how it's been a bugbear in TF2's design for so long.
it was made with the pyro-engie matchup in mind, but it boosted the pyro-spy matchup to pyro
While I agree that the TTR (Time To Remove) on the sapper on the Pyro's end is indeed quite fast and somewhat similar to a Danger Shield feel against spy, and I could reasonably see there being a swing speed penalty, I'm not sure if bumping it up to more hits to remove is as great as advertised.
First of all: While this point doesn't mean much from a gameplay enjoyability stance, I feel it should be said. The Homewrecker's main identity is its quick sapper removal, because unless you come across stray teleporters or buildings in general (with a medic for sentries), the whole more damage to buildings thing doesn't really come into play. Especially since you're pyro, a class who generally doesn't want to be completely alone, in enemy territory, save for ambushes. But then why would you equip the homewrecker over the other options, which leads to my second point.
Second point being: The Pyro's melee arsenal is actually quite vast, in terms of variability for the playstyle. If you choose to equip the Homewrecker, you lose out on enhanced mobility from the Powerjack, or the combo potential of the Axestinguisher, or even in the unlikely scenario of you running gas passer or being on a map with water, the ambush capability of The Neon Annihilator. I could even possibly make a case that the Third Degree is a viable weapon, especially if you are ambushing a medic/getting ubered to go take out their medic. Pyro giving up this wealth of options for better sapper removal, which relies on there being a Spy on the other team, an Engineer on yours, and if that engineer is capable of holding their own against the spy or not. While I agree that it leans slightly more towards a Danger Shield approach of crippling a class, I don't think it's AS bad as it's played out to be in the video (Which was very good btw.)
Third possible point: While this one is kind of just me spitballing, if we were to compare both the Homewrecker and the Neon Annihilator in terms of how versatile they are, I'd reckon the Neon Annihilator would be a better option than the Homewrecker if you wanted something more well-rounded. As previously mentioned, the Homewrecker's extra damage to buildings doesn't really offer much in terms of actual gameplay, and so its main identity revolves around sapper removal. While the Neon Annihilator removes sappers slower than it, it also comes with a more useful upside of more damage against wet opponents, despite the requirements to achieve making your opponent wet. Although I'm speaking for keeping the 1-hit removal on the Homewrecker, I don't think it's very balanced in its current state and agree the TTR is too fast to the Engineer's.
TLDR; I agree that the speed difference is quite egregious, comparatively, but I feel that removing the ability to destroy sappers in 1 hit is maybe not the right way to go about it. I would propose a significant swing speed reduction, but I don't balance or design games so uh, take it with several grains of salt. If anybody has anything they want clarification on, do say! While I am making a case against some of the points in the video, I do not like to argue for the sake of arguing, so I'd like it if any replies could be civil disagreements/counterpoints.
Love your vids btw Jonto! I main medic personally, so you're my worst enemy. Thanks for the intel to avoid you over these few years >:)
Great points. I've played pybro a long time (nearly 4500 sappers removed on my homewrecker), and here are some things I've noticed by playing it so much.
TDLR, the weapon's drawbacks are:
1. It's very situational to the players on your team and enemy team as well as the map.
2. Requires the spy to choose to make contact with the engie's buildings in the first place
3. Doesn't help in any way against demo or heavy. You can counter a pybro pretty easily, it just requires you to switch classes.
4. No alert sound for sappers, meaning you have to pay attention and stay close to an engie nest to even get use from the weapon.
5. Very low damage against players. (49 dmg per hit)
6. Building damage doesn't matter very much.
7. Can't repair with the homewrecker.
I explain in more detail below.
1. Homewrecker is an extremely situational weapon compared to pyro's other melee weapons. There has to be an engie on your team and at least one other spy on the enemy team to get any use out of it. I would also add that homewrecker gets more use depending on what map you're playing on too. Intel and control point maps are where most pybros like to hang out in because it's where you'll find the most engie players. Payload and koth maps not so much. Maps with a ton of chokepoints or few flank routes are also easy for pybro players, but of course very open maps are bad for pyro.
2. If you protect an engie nest, you can't reliably protect the rest of your team. If you protect the rest of your team, you can't reliably protect the engie. You're making a trade-off. So if you think about it, as a spy, if there's a pesky pybro that won't allow you anywhere near the nest, you can just ignore the nest and go for other enemy players. Vice versa if the pybro is constantly moving alongside his other teammates. Basically just go where the pybro isn't, get some kills, and the whole homewrecker thing will be a non-issue for you. The homewrecker isn't worth anything if the pybro is a mile away from the engie's buildings, looking for you in a place you aren't even in. So get the pybro away from the buildings, or avoid him entirely.
3. Demoman exists. If you, as a spy cannot get into a nest and sap it due to a pybro, then go demoman and sticky spam. The pybro can't reliably deal with stickies if you spam them at the nest. Even if they have a scorch shot, it won't be very effective. (scorch shot is NOT the silver bullet against stickies like everyone keeps saying) Heavy is also pretty good at killing pyros, if you really only want the pyro dead. He's pyro's hard counter because of his hitscan weaponry. Homewrecker is not useful at all here.
4. Pyro doesn't get alerted like engie does to a sapper being placed. It takes at most 8.64 seconds to get to a sapper in time (if building is lvl3, less if the building is lower level. You really don't get much time to remove a sapper. This means that anytime a pybro isn't paying attention to the engie's buildings for more than 8.64 seconds, you're risking that a building can be destroyed by a sapper from a very sneaky spy. This means that you're kind of stuck into sticking to a general area that is about a 4-6 second walking distance from the nest if you want to get use out of the weapon. And when you're confined to a zone to play around in, the enemy can easily go around you.
5. Homewrecker is just a bad option against enemy players, doesn't really need to be said.
6. You don't get much use out of the 100% damage to buildings aside from the rare instance of being near a badly-placed mini-sentry. It does 130 damage per hit to buildings, meaning the mini is the only building you can destroy in one hit. The other buildings it's two hits, but can be even more if the enemy engie is repairing the building. Enemy engies normally don't place their stuff in melee reach. Normally just using your flamethrower is better anyway to destroy a building because the flames go through the building and kill the engie repairing it. Even with a knockback resist, attacking a sentry with a melee weapon will most likely still get you killed.
7. You can't repair with the homewrecker. So if you get rid of a sapper and the sentry is left at 15 health, you have to hope and pray that the building doesn't get deleted by the time the engie comes back to repair it.
I disagree with the video because you should view this from the homewrecker pybro's perspective. Yeah sure it's annoying when a pybro unsaps the sapper you placed, but it's annoying to a pybro when your team has no engies. It's annoying to a pybro when the enemy team has no spies. It's annoying to a pybro when the spy is avoiding you all the time. It's annoying to a pybro when you play through 5 entire matches and you don't get a single sapper removed or a single engie buddy to play with, and you're forced to play regular pyro again. And I didn't even mention the boredom that a lot of pybro mains have to go through, (Boredom/inattentiveness is the #1 self-inflicted weakness of pybro). Yet you don't hear pybros complaining very much about this. And the reason why is because there are soooo many more actual spy mains than actual pybro mains out there so the pybro player's voices get drowned out. And when I say pybro main, I mean people that are REALLY commited to it, not just someone who dabbles in it from time to time.
The homewrecker is a situational weapon that rewards attentiveness on the pyro's part and punishes a spy's lack of strategy in dealing with a nest. (Sometimes the best thing is to not even attack the nest at all.) It's only useful in specific circumstances that does very well in those circumstances, but fails in all other metrics compared to pyro's other melee weapons.
In my time as a pybro, the best spy players that gave me the most headache were the ones that never showed themselves to me and actively avoided me to kill my other teammates. In doing that, it effectively pits me against the spy's team in an uneven defensive fight.
So what I'm trying to say is that if the homewrecker annoys you, and you're playing against a homewrecker pybro, all you need to do is kill his teammates, and then he will wither on the vine. Without any support from his team, the pybro is toast against any pushes your team makes. You just have to not fight him directly, and instead fight him indirectly. That, or just switch classes for a moment to get rid of the nest and the pybro.
So yeah. The homewrecker is not overpowered at all. It's just something that forces you to change up your usual spy playstyle, while at the same time handicapping the pyro to an extent outside what the stats on the weapon say. If you're an attentive player that tries to be aware of what your engie is doing, and where his buildings are, and the routes an enemy can take to surprise attack him, and all that...the homewrecker *may* be useful. Emphasis on *may* be, because again you have to meet the prerequisites, unstated in the weapon's stats to even use it. If you tend to be an inattentive player, who constantly can't stand still and just has to go out and kill enemies, then the weapon is quite literally crap. You could use any other pyro melee. You can argue at that point that you aren't even a pybro anymore. (This is why there is a saying amongst pybros that the homewrecker alone doesn't make you a pybro. The commitment to your team's health and a drive to be a teamplayer is what makes that.) Honestly, I think if more people actually saw what it's like for a committed pybro main to play the game, they'd understand why the homewrecker is fine as is. The weapon already has a bunch of drawbacks, it's just that most people aren't exactly thinking about them. And I don't blame them. Pybro is a very niche playstyle in the game that's often oversimplified.
Also, while I'm talking about pybro, I just want to say that as you can see from how in depth I'm going in on the psychology at play, pybro gameplay requires just as much mind gaming as spy gameplay does. That's because a class that is specialized to fight spies has to think like a spy so you can catch him before he strikes. And you have to think like a spy all while trying to defend poor pablogonzalez2009 from being backstabbed, who has no self-preservation, and at the SAME time you have to worry about projectile spam. Pybro can be boring like a lot of people say, but it's also extremely stressful sometimes. I could go on and on about pybro things that annoy me that nobody can relate to, but then that would make this text wall twice as long.
20% swing speed reduction could work fairly well, it is a big sledgehammer after all so it should be heavier. Then so its player DPS isn't atrocious reduce the damage penalty versus players to 15% maybe even 10%. I'm curious to see how it would look after that.
5:17 That guy really ate all the missiles haha
5:52 ENGINEERS LOOK OUT! ANOTHER SENTRY BUSTER HAS ENTERED THE AREA!
*Giant metal stomping sounds getting louder and louder*
ÜBER BOT!!!
Thank you for your work. It's a good thing we have you in a community and can take a pleasure watching your quality fun videos.
As a pyro main: I think that it should take 2 swings to remove sappers
As pyro main I think the purpose should be changed, make it more of a sentry removal tool. Imagine when as pyro you actually have some chance against lvl 1 sentry
To be fair, the engie can re-heal the sentry after destroying a sapper, if a pyro removes it the sentry stays at the heath it was at until an engie comes or it's destroyed
That pyro's a spy!
@@realdragon well, to do that you actually have to get close to the sentry in the first place, which is the entire reason why sentries hard counter pyro; he can't even get into good range to attack them. Unless you're thinking of giving homewrecker pyros damage/knockback resistance from sentries, the homewrecker isn't going to do anything to help pyro against them.
@@realdragonuse the dragons fury, it can two shot lvl 1s and if the engi is turtling you can hit the too
It makes sense, a sledgehammer can break something faster than a wrench
Why doesn’t it damage the engi’s buildings then lol, it’s not like pyro’s known four their discerning judgement
I bonk people with my hammer
Thy butterknife and gun cannot outstand me hammer!
I mean, it only does 9 more damage than a butterknife.
@june9914 Haha more damage = fun
Win
@@MrMachine540 use the backscratcher then :Y it’s also got the bonus of 1shotting kunai spies and helping your medic build Uber
I use a load out i call "screw you," where i use the plhog and homewrecker to annoy everybody.
Glad I found your channel recently been getting back into playing Spy more often! Quite a few "fuck that 9th class specifically" weapons like the razorback or darwin's shield against pyro
4:24 not meant to be insulting because I love the way you give insight to game mechanics but this moment made me realize that this game really has been out for 17 years now, I think TF2's birthday was also like a few days ago now that I think about it.
Just with the thumbnail I knew this was about to get super personal and intense
I enjoy playing both sides of the Pyro vs Spy rivalry. I've found using the red tape recorder (Who does this right?) feels like a good current counter to homewrecker happy pyros. To make a small callback to spy being a "versatile class" being able to be a pick/support but also a recon class, I strongly believe the red-tape recorder helps spy being the "nuisance/disruptor class". Compared to the standard downtime of a normal sapper, the downtime for buildings with the red-tape is the build time. When an engineer is taken out of commission, a pyro cannot upgrade or undo the reversed progress that a red-tape has done to any building, which I feel the red-tape excels the best at when interfering with teleporters. Red-taping multiple buildings in a nest requires ALL OF THEM to slowly rebuild themselves after they are de-sapped, which in itself takes time. As an engineer, this requires a bit of triage as the last of the buildings will very likely go down a level or two and will take more time to rebuild to max lvl than they take to simply repair. In the event that the engineer is dead or preoccupied, all buildings will likely go down to level 1 or be unbuilt if undeterred. If a pyro alone were to be guarding the nest the risk of dying or being discovered would indeed be greater if the idea was to destroy the nest, but that's shouldn't be the plan. The main tactic is too waste time, the engineer and the pybro. An engineer constantly having to upgrade as opposed to repair is more paranoid and preoccupied on building their buildings again, time that can be used to backstab their other teammates. A pybro could be stuck at spawn hammering away at a teleporter being unbuilt, but that does not mean you cannot sap-shoot-sap it to kill it on your end. A pybro guarding a nest is also one less player watching an objective where you may or may not be afterwards.
Just my two-cents. Correct me if I'm at all wrong or misinformed.
I would rather we get a -25% swing speed, since the Homewrecker/Maul is a sledge hammer, which is heavy. It could also remove the damage penalty to players. Problem: Valve isn't interested in coding anything for TF2 anymore unless it is for profit. Both of the proposed changes would require a small amount of tweaks to the code, which means we will not see any changes happen unless it is with a new major update.
It wouldn't change the issue it all though, it'd still take the same amount of time to remove a sapper, you'd just end up with it being worse at destroying buildings
Swing speed penalties only increase the attack cooldown. The other comment is right; it would make the homewrecker worse at its only other use case.
Yeah, you'd have to add a draw speed penalty, since it doesn't make sense for a pybro to run around with the homewrecker already out.
SPY HAS A GUN is absolutely my favourite tf2 meme and it actually improved my spy gameplay a lot. I can't believe how much people underestimate the revolver, it's crazy. Thank you for all your hard work and advices!
You know what? If pyro is 4times as efficient as ENGINEER then no wonder he's a successful ceo
pyro: im not going to sugarcoat it
-constant spycheck
-stays near engis and spychecks near builds
-gets called racial slurs by spy mains
Everyone uses racial slurs (cringe), it's not a class specific thing
racial slurs is just apart of tf2(sadly) not really only the french man
2:20 Personally, I like to play my own pseudo sub-class I like to call "everyone's Pybro" which is kinda like Pybroing but I stick hover around groups of people and use the Mannmelter to both extinguish team members and abuse the infinite ammo pool and range
Gigachad detected. Do you find that the Mannmelter is any kind of useful? I've never had luck with it, but I'm just a simple Medic main, and terrible at Pyro.
@@irregularassassin6380 It's more or less like Med, or battle Med to be specific. Stay close to the pack, spam your shots (mainly into groups), and reap the rewards for helping the team (by using the hammer, eating fire, or chasing off enemies with flames), only difference is the fire rate and the ranges of effect
@@irregularassassin6380 If you want to get into the habit of flex fighting with Med also I aslo made a pseudo for Med I call "War Medic" where you switch between fighting with the syringe gun (mostly Blut for self-healing), and quicly healing the team with the Quick fix
You wouldnt catch me dead without the homewrecker on pyro.
Maybe instead of making the homewrecker destroy sappers in 2 hits (because the source spaghetti doesn't allow you to do that currently and nobody wants to deal with changing the spaghetti) We could make the homewrecker have a slower firing speed so it takes longer than the engineer to destroy it, give it an animation like other sledgehammers in other games where the pyro hoists it up before slamming it, I think that would be nice and deal with the sapper problem, also buff its damage to buildings so it can actually deal with sentries, lets say a pyro goes around the corner after killing the engineer, air blasts the sentries rockets into it with the degreaser, and then hits the sentry with the homewrecker destroying it, cool right.
It can two shot any building, and 1 shot mini sentries. If you can get in range, it *demolishes* buildings. It can even kill a teleporter than an engi is repairing on the other side. 130 damage per swing is no joke
Unfortunately decreasing firing speed doesn't slow down the initial attack, it only adds downtime between repeated attacks because source engine or something
Genuinely curious, why would making it destroy sappers in two hits be impossible with source spaghetti, we already have neon annihilator which does exactly that because it does lesser damage to buildings right?
@@roloa7391 Yeah, but sappers are considered buildings in the code I believe, and if we want the homewrecker to keep its bonus building damage it will always destroy sappers in one hit.
@@largeladygaming Ok, thought that was going to be the case, not sure how would could balance it then without downgrading the homewreckers building damage buff.
Ah, yes. Spy main don't like "UnFaIr!!11" weapon. But like diamond back, cuz it very fair! Cuz, u know, doing "hard spy job"
I literally made a video calling the Diamondback OP
@@Jontohil2 Well, homewracker is more unfair, then diamondback?
As a spy main, I have to agree that this is quite annoying to deal with.
As pyro main I agree this is awful weapon
As a pyro/engie main, I think spy's are quite annoying to deal with.
As a scout main, I think that pyro/engie are hard to deal with
Spy mains when a class that already hard-counters them can also hard-counter them:
@@realdragon Eh, more like a bit too good.
How to summarize fighting against homewrecker as spy: "oh boy i planned this attack on engineer 4 hours ago i hope this pyro will not kill me!" pyro: **clicks 3 on his keyboard**
I see a lot of people in the comments saying it's just a class hate weapon so it should be nerfed. But Pyro is already supposed to counter spy so it isn't changing any dynamics unlike the Darwin's danger shield where pyro should counter sniper at close range.
Also putting on the homewrecker robs you of other important melee options like the powerjack.
@@co8wei 1000%
Counterpoint: Shotguns ignore the DDS. There is no Sapper that ignores the Homewrecker.
TF2 was never meant to be rock paper scissors. Its classes have an odd mix of general and special uses that have slight advantages and disadvantages over each other with no really intended counters. While matchups are lopsided, they are seldom onesided. Pyro's natural advantage over spy is already the biggest in the game, and the homewrecker pushes it over the edge.
Also, comparing a weapon option to the meta alone is dumb.
I mean it is changing the dynamic; it goes from Spy is countered by Pyro to Spy just flat-out can't do one of their jobs which is harassing Engineers. The Homewrecker makes it that even if you backstab the Engineer and ap their buildings the Pyro guarding them that you already got past to do all that can just say no and destroy the sapper more effectively than the Engineer. In fact, giving an anti-Class weapon to a class that already counters the class is not good and I have no idea why you even said that.
In the wise words of Heavy, TF2, ‘Keep crying, baby!”
*The real draw of the Homewrecker is that it can remove sappers.*
No. The real draw is that I can strangify it, and call my attack swings "anti-horny bonks".
no thats for the sandman, per the meme
I just found your channel and I think you make some really high quality stuff! As a creator myself I can certainly appreciate the time and effort you put into your videos! Keep up the good work!
Says the spy main
Edit: after careful analysis on the video and putting thought into my previous statement, i must apologise to all spy mains as this fella has proven a completely valid point.
thanks
"Its the only weapon that destroys sappers in one hit" *crys in neon annihilator*
Another idea would be making the red tape recorder viable by doubling its "health" and making it take more hits to remove. That way a spy who knows the sentry nest is well protected can opt for weakening the nest and decreasing the likelihood of it being removed. I'm not opposed to your proposal though, even though I feel like it might lessen its utility compared to the neon annihilator.
I love that idea! Not only would it make the Red Tape Recorder a semi-viable counter to Pybros (especially if the swing speed on the Homewrecker is also decreased), but it would also completely destroy the Jag. Imagine having to hit the RTR _six times_ to remove it! The Engie would have to duel the Spy, on any wrench, because they can't afford to turn their back for that long.
"Oh, you want to build your nest quickly? Allow me to drown you in red tape." It would absolutely give the RTR a niche, and let it live up to its name.
The counter arguement for the homewrecker is that
1. Probably meant to be a "oh, here's a sapper, I'm gonna hit it and go being a pyro again" tool because forcing you to stay there isn't fun
2. Even if there are pybros, even they wouldn't be as receptive if it took too much time to help out
3. It's in the name, homewrecker. Rather fitting that jumps into the engineer and spy dynamic.
4. It's not even that bad. Adding 2 hits makes it so you have to give up on being a pyro which would definitely put this into a mid weapon category
4:37 Looks like a sega character
Lol
I think the reason the homewrecker one hit zappers is because of some source spaghetti with the building damage bonus and sappers bing a “building”
6:22 that red soldier is a spie
No it was shooting a rocket
Ye i know, but it made boost for jon, and even didn't try and catch jon
our bloody sponsor, Jontohil Guides! is here to notify you mukkers that spy has a revolver!
amazing video mate! enjoyed it as always.
While yea it's annoying that they remove sappers so quickly, I would just like to say as a pybro player by the time i get to the sentry to unsap it, it prob has 10hp
Also there is a difrence between an engi saving your buildings and a pyro doing so, beacuse when engi saves them it's just a thx but whenever i save a building i'm praised beacuse the homewrecker is to save the engis who are dead and can't do it themselves.
And one more thing, if it took 2 hits to destroy the sapper there would be a mutch higher chance of the pyros death as well, and the pyro using the homewrecker alredy is sacrificing his melee slot for his team
You basically lose nothing changing your melee, the powerjack gives Pyro unnecessary speed (which is insanely good, but did he seriously need it?) and everything else is for alternative Pyro play styles
@@Manny4Life948 yea but i use homewtecker less as a melee but more as a tool it is not great but still good at killing players
@@Manny4Life948 Unnecessary speed?
You're saying this on a class who's stock weapons are a flamethrower and shotgun both of which can be hilariously easily out ranged. If a Pyro is not in range anyone can turn around and walk away and Pyro will never catch up.
@@cosmicskydragon333 a flaregun can solve that problem
@@Manny4Life948 Pyro is best as a flanker. But to flank, you need to get to the flank. Scouts, Spies, and Demoknights get extra speed to traverse the map and close distance, so why shouldn't Pyro get extra speed with a risk/reward tradeoff?
Gabe: my favorite class is a spy
Meanwhile Gabe: one hit sapper? Yes!
I mean, I can count the number of times I have removed a sapper with the homewrecker in my 500 hours of Pyro TF2.
You're really discounting the fact that the Pyro has to be aware of a bunch of stuff that it's tough for Pyro to be aware of. Pyro would either need to see the spy place the sapper (which is a bad play on the spy's part, since being seen placing a sapper is usually a quick way to get yourself killed), constantly monitor the engineer's buildings for sappers (which is a bad play on the Pyro's part, engineer does not need to be bodyguarded as hard as a Medic or a Heavy), or the Pyro needs to hear the Engineer voice line over the sound of their maniacal laughter as they watch their foes turn into bbq before their eyes (very hard). I'm pretty sure the only times I've ever actually used the homewrecker for sappers is when the engineer bothers to get on mic and tell me about a sapped building.
I'm in the same boat, I usually only saw the saboteurs when I was warned or when I passed by, I always have it equipped because I'm not used to using hand-to-hand combat.
So in short, it’s completely fair
You touched upon this slightly at the end, but I personally would say that the ramification of this are more significant than you realize.
As a Pyro Main, especially one who enjoys Pybro, I am with Uncle Dane when he states that the Homewrecker is underwhelming compared to other options.
It's our job to kill the spy, and that is often much better done with the speed boost of the Powerjack or the instant death from the Axtinguisher.
The Homewrecker is actually fairly niche despite it being quite good at its niche. Like you mentioned, it's mainly a tool for when the Engineer is down or can't make it to their building in time, but even then you can usually count on there being more than one Engineer present.
Even at it's niche, a Spy sapping a sentry in conjunction with an Über push will force the Pyro to focus the push rather than protect the engineer and deal with the sapper. Heck, a Pybro would be quite lucky to survive and have time to smack the sapper in such a scenario which I'd argue practically necessitates the one shot on Sappers despite the scenario being more rare in Casual.
Yeah, but other engineers have to hit 2 swings and actually aim at the spy to kill him, which they **can** do, but without losing buildings.
Also, it's far less niche than you seem to think it is
@@aeolianthecomposer Engineers can also repair and move their buildings while the Pyro also have an opportunity cost of both his melee and his attention.
And no, the Homewrecker is niche. Just really good at its niche similar to the Back Scatter which arguably is even better at its niche in comparason but both are eclipsed by Pyro's most powerful melee options.
@@aeolianthecomposer I have never seen a pybro be needed or have I been needed as a pybro. An engie who dies, is an engie who has failed because spy or no, pybro or no if that sentry was anywhere of important , it will not last long enough for that Engie to return.
"the homewrecker ruins the relationship between engineer and spy" yeah that makes sense
Okay but hear me out... There's so many counters to Engineer's sentries that Pyro's homewrecker 1-shotting a sapper doesn't seem that unfair. The odds are so stacked against engineers when there is a competent soldier, demo, spy, or heavy on the enemy team that most of the time a sentry doesn't die to a sapper, but some explosive weapon instead. Why are we getting hung up on the homewrecker so much?
That and Pyros have low health, and you can always just ignore it unless the point is being pushed and it has to go but if that is the case then your team should be able to use that timing to help. Of course there are always exceptions to this but generally its how it works.
I personally like using the homewrecker when jet packing with the back burner, so your proposed sentry buster homewrecker fix is something I can get behind.
1:18 I misread that as "pyro as a whore" and was momentarily confused
lmfao
Spy: It may have eacaped your mind, but life isn't fair, your dear Pyro knew this, in fact he frequently sought to it!
Engineer: My Pyro was a great man!
Spy: Your Pyro was a SWINE
I remember one time I was playing Snakewater with Engineer. A Spy killed me and sapped my level 3 (that I had just built), and all I could do was watching my sentry slowly die. As a last desperate measure, I called out in voice chat for someone on my team to remove the sapper and save my sentry gun. Just then, a Homewrecker Pyro came running in and destroyed the sapper in one hit when the sentry had 10 health left.
That was the biggest chad I've ever played with. I hope he's doing well.
One great example of how fast the homewrecker is. If I die as Spy and see our teleporter entrance being sapped at spawn, I will wait out the respawn time, change class to Pyro and delete the sapper with plenty of time to spare. It's really dumb.
As an engie main, i remember ive been bombarded on tf2s subreddit for saying that the Homewrecker is busted and should be tweaked because it straight up nullifies what is already the weakest class in the game.
Pyros are so quick to whine about Snipers Darwins Danger Shield about it being a "fuck this class especially" weapon (and rightfully so), but i rarely see the same energy reciprocated about the Homewrecker.
Imo there hasnt been a single time where i as an engie died to a spy and said to myself "i hate spy", because i KNOW how much spy has to avoid and go through to even get the chance at a stab, and most times i couldve avoided death by doing something different MYSELF like being more aware/checking for spies more.
But to pull off a successful stab only for a pyro to insta delete a sapper is just plain stupid, regular spy checking is already really strong.
Basically if the pyro has the homewrecker... just go demo or soldier honestly, like ATLEAST make it 3 hit sappers or 2 but with a tiny bit of slower swing speed, 1 hit to remove with no slower equip or swing speed is ridiculous
It's the same with people disliking the Spy-cicle but are completely fine with how one-sided the interaction between Pyro and Spy is.
@@Artician Spy-cicle is actually my favorite counter weapon because it has the downside of exchanging your knife for a second of fire immunity if your hit so the Spy gets the benefit of not dying and the Pyro gets the benefit of making sure the Spy can't backstab for a bit.
You're insane if you think spy is overall a weaker class than pyro
Jontohil, i love your videos so much they inspired me to even play tf2 in the first place, let alone main spy. love all of your work keep it up!
Not a big fan of the rework having it -75% knockback against sentries as its not really worth it considering it'd *only* work if you have a medic, otherwise having knockback resistance would be a detriment as you cannot surf off the damage and in turn get you killed much, MUCH faster. If we were to go with the 2 hits nerf I reckon it'd be a better idea that destroying engineer buildings with any weapon stores a critical hit for the next melee swing as it would pair really well with the dragons fury melting sentries, be a better synergy with friendly medics and even punish engineers that leave their buildings behind. (Also in this case we'd nerf the neon annihilator to 3 hits for a sapper 'cause it wouldnt make much sense both taking the same time to remove a sapper)
The knockback immunity only is applied when holding it out, and since it is a melee weapon, there's no real reason to hold it out when beyond melee range. And if you really want to surf off the knockback to escape the sentry, just switch off your melee.
@@williammin8340 then just never use the melee in the first place, most of the time you're better off using the flamethrower. also it isnt "immunity" its only a 75% resistance meaning youre still gonna be pushed back a little bit still, and if someone popped you up into the air the resistance is less effective as you take more knockback in the air.
The knockback resistance is pretty much useless even including the niche of having an uber considering most meds run with you into a nest making the sentry target two people at the same time, and the DPS of the flamethrower already does good job taking care of the sentry.
You wouldn't need to chance the Neon Annihilator in your scenario. The two weapons would look a lot like the (old) Ambassador and the Diamondback. Both allow(ed) guaranteed crits, but under different scenarios, and have the same base damage. The Homewrecker would be like the Diamondback in this scenario, except a lot more balanced. Pyros have a harder time getting to the back line, which is where the Engie's buildings are. Plus, the Pyro is getting guaranteed melee crits ... with no speed buff to close the distance.
@@ProfessorEggnog You're one of the rare commenters on this video that actually plays the game.
Spy mains: "The homewrecker is unfair"
Engie mains: "I appreciate the help Pybro but just being more vigilant with protecting the nest with your flamethrower would be more helpful, the homewrecker isn't necessary"
Pyro mains: "Hmmmhr Huu Hrrrrr" ("Hammer go brrrr.")
You can just say “I made this video because a pyro kept destroying my sappers and taunting after killing me.” It’s ok.
The videos are clearly opinionated bum
Wild idea that I just came up with: similar to how the Escape Plan gives the Soldier Marked for Death, make the Homewrecker give Marked for Facestab-- by which I mean while deployed and for a few seconds afterwards, the arc around the pyro that is considered their back is expanded to all the way around them so you can actually backstab them from any angle.
it is true that the homewrecker is kinda unfair but it is EXTREMELY common to see a pyro not use the homewrecker because of how it has more melees to use that are more useful. Still unfair weapon tho
I found it really funny that you called the Homewrecker "a cheap middle finger", because my strange Homewrecker is literally called "A Middle Finger To Spies"
You said "The Pyro should NOT be able to destroy sappers faster than the engineer can."
I disagree.
Many engies spend much of the game literally sitting ON their buildings. Even that close, two hits/building takes long enough that it's still common to loose a building when they're all sapped, especially if at least one sapper gets re-applied.
Unless you expect pybros to spend the entire game literally SITTING on the nest, those several seconds reaching the buildings means you'll probably only be able to save one or two of the three buildings, and (if the engie is backstabbed) they're all at 1/4 health anyway, so all your team has to do is sneeze on them to finish them off.
I counter propose the following change: Homewrecker removes sappers in two hits, BUT can use flamethrower ammo to heal buildings to 75% of their full health.
See the issue now?
Removing a sapper in one hit doesn't mean much if the engie is dead and the building is low health.
And if the engie isn't dead, there's no way a spy should be able to, with any confidence, expect to 1v2 (1v3 if you count the sentry) a nest and expect to win.
I had a similar concern, yeah. However there is an issue when someone is playing a dedicated pyro and ALSO sitting on the buildings, as it is an annoying and low effort counter to a lot of effort on behalf of the spy. This is the solution I came up with that solves both problems, let me know what you think:
- +80% damage to buildings (requires 2 hits for sappers, but still eats other buildings for lunch)
- Disables buildings for 1 second on hit (the sapper stops dealing damage when hit, but still needs to be removed)
- -30% damage against players
This way, pyros that don't get buzzed on dispenser fumes all game can still save a building in the nick of time and dedicated pybros can't be more efficient than an engineer at his own job.
@@necroseus That isn't an issue, this is like saying everyone needs a Medic Counter.
A single class coming against 2 people sitting together is always going to be at a massive disadvantage, but this also means these 2 people sitting on the Sentry aren't helping the rest of their vulnerable team. You could even shoot the Pyro from outside their range. You have a gun. You can draw aggro, and if the Pyro chooses to ignore you then you can bring down the rest of their team... turning a 1v2 into a 6v2.
An semi-competent Pyro sitting on defenses should set anyone approaching on fire.
You're not killing the Engi and Sapping changes or not.
@@necroseus Disables sapper on first hit, removes sapper and restores building functionality on second hit? Oooh, I like it.
@@matthewmiller8297 Yeah, exactly!
Ngl when I first saw the title of your video I assumed it was going to be the "Non-engi class removing sappers = unfair" argument that I usually see with the Homewrecker. I was surprised when you said you had no issue with the Homewrecker removing sappers but just how fast it removes sappers. I was also surprised at how much faster the Homewrecker could removes a single sapper. While it always felt like it was removing sappers quickly it never occurred to me that it was removing them so much faster than 50%.
What I actually think is unfair is the fact the cool-as-heck, badass design of the Maul is reserved for such a lame melee weapon of a basically melee range class :(
Now that's true...
also reminder the reason the homewrecker is instant is because pyros cant repair buildings
Alternative idea. Keep the one hit, but the hit actually damages the building, since the precision of a sledgehammer being swung with both hands by a crazy person is far less than that of a wrench in the hand of a professional. That way, if the spy drops a sapper and a shot on the sentry, Pyro runs a decent risk of destroying the sentry themselves, or leaving it extremely vulnerable to follow up damage. Just a thought, since the idea of a sledgehammer doing more damage but resulting in collateral just makes sense to me.
This would work the homewrecker dmg to allied buildings should only work when there's a sapper, then you wouldn't have trolls making the engie's life harder than it is
You’re asking for Griefers to destroy every innocent engineer building with his spy buddy on the enemy team
make it only do the team damage when sapped
It's funny because out of all of the "turn of X class weapons" Spy's spycicle makes the absolute most sense amd should be buffed along with all the other knives
Hello spymain here: now there are problematic wapons in tf2 like the dimond and the razer but homewrecker is not one of them. Firsts pybros are rare casual or community. second pybros have more things to then being with the engi and watching sentrys the extinguish protect etc. Third prybros dont get a notification on the HUD think of all of the times you knew something is supped only cuz the HUD forth you are wrong about not doing anything yes its "technecly one click" but so is putting a supper pybros need to balance being on the defensive to the offensive (again pybros can fight) and noticing the sentry being sapped and there is a spy on the loose makes a difficlte dilema aither they go and kill the spy or protect the engiless nest. And lastly 5:30 saying that you like fighting pyro doesnt mean you dont hate underminding mechanics pyros are the cheat for spy they are the counter wich is diffrent anyways you are salty on the homewrecker its not even that good you take a main damege dealer and make them in to a following teletabie who protectes players
One lil hangup that i didn't notice you mention. You can't repair a building with the homewrecker, if you get to a building right before it gets destroyed from a sapper, you still have to hope and prey the enemy team doesn't take advantage.
2:15 my theory is that it’s. Not jsut one male or female put. It instead that there are two pyros each different gender
But of course, thats just a theory...
Sounds cool
the "pyro" is just abunch of salt that came to life
You're so right.
Give the homewrecker to the medic.
I'd like to see Valve remove the "damage removes sappers" function from both the Homewrecker and the Neon Annihilator, then buff them both to make them slightly more reliable in their respective niches. The Homewrecker could get the Sentry Gun knockback resistance while deployed, as you suggested, and the Neon Annihilator could give increased swimming speed and longer breath duration while deployed/equipped. I'd rather have two weapons with unique niches that are strong in those niches, than have them both dilute each other by sharing a stat for no reason. Especially if that stat just makes Spy's job even more grueling, when Pyro's role for protecting his team against Spies is already to simply spycheck.
2:39 the like button lighting up when jon says "*just like this video*'s sponsor!"
As a Pyro main, I don't agree with these changes to the Homewreaker. But that could just be me as an unsupportive pyro talking, using my Homewrecker to actually destroy enemy buildings. Because when I see a building being sapped, I don't think "MUST REMOVE SAPPER," I think "SPY. FIND SPY. BURN SPY."
Many people do not acknowledge that you can combine PyroShark and PyBro with the Neon Annihilator, because it destroys sappers AND crits in water!