ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ส.ค. 2024
- What is the BEST role to gain MMR? Should you switch roles to gain MMR? Is it easier to win ranked games as a core or a support? Zach answers some of these commons questions by explaining the advantages to playing core vs support in a typical pub game.
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As a main support player, I think it's less frustrating in higher MMR where core players know how to end game at the right time, not afk farming all the time or throwing.
100%
this
Yup. Nothing is more frustrating when the game is over at min 20-25, but one or more cores want to get 6big items first. Even if you win, you just wasted 20+ minutes. But more than likely, I find this just ends in a loss for many reasons.
This is literally the entire argument. Issue is getting there for many players lol
I am just happy when they don’t dive tier 3 10 minutes in believing no enemies will respond to It. (While tier 1 tower still standing) and a core raging for you being the worst support ever because you didn’t die with the core level 5.
This is like asking whether it's easier to eat a boulder with a fork or a spoon
Definitely with a spoon!
Hmm it might be easier to chip off the boulder with a fork though
Hahaha 0:11
THE SPOON IS THE BEST UTENSIL
@@ZQuixotixnah bro, chopsticks. Can u eat Cheetos with a fork or a spoon? No.
Climbed from archon to immortal exclusively playing 4/5 and now I have to worry about griefing my team with immortal drafts where I get forced into a core position and cause an almost auto-lose.
Support can steadily climb as long as you are taking in knowledge and reviewing your games and seeing how you fuck up lanes (when to pull/harrass/etc...). As long as you can give whatever core you're with a good lane consistently you can climb to divine relatively painlessly. The other thing low MMR supports do a lot of that hamstrings their mmr is nothing. Low MMR supports stand around and do nothing or just waddle around the map doing nothing and its really painful to watch. Go stack a camp, press a smoke and run at a core thats farming, take farm that your cores aren't taking, please just do something yall.
As a 4 or 5 I have never tilted before. If we're losing you can just expect me to be in narnia cutting waves
Thank you Zac for being the premium support content creator in this space. Insightful and entertaining as always
I've climbed from Herald to Archon playing mostly support. Definitely possible and it feels really good when you have a competent core who appreciates what you're doing. The most frustrating thing though is when you are playing out of your mind like it's TI grand finals but your core is an absolute lemon.
herald to archon lol.. bitch pls ive reach immortal playing as sup . cant even last hit well but map awareness 100%
absolute lemon is my new favourite insult xD
I'm actually weird for preferring pos 5 over 4. It's just far less stressful playing a less mechanically demanding(a lot of 4s are really hard to use)support role where you have time to breath and think what needs to be done strategetically to win. Also since I play pos 1 the most, I feel like playing pos 5 helps me far more getting better at pos 1 since both play in the same lane so it's much easier to pick things up on what's needed to succeed in lane.
you're not the only one, the pos4 hero pool is made of heroes that requies quite a lot of good map awareness like earth spirit, bara, tusk etc and are expected to gank while pos5 sometimes you just pick dazzle or treant and chill/babysit
I was like that till i realized dominating oflane often means dominating a game. Dominating a safelane doesn’t necessarily mean dominating game
@@BobbyQuickSand or just pick Pudge and enjoy the Stargates. Pudge noises away
I play only 5 because I love to always look at the bigger picture. Hard support feels like the least linear role right now, its very flexible as it can go from babysitting the hardcarry to ganking other lanes to make space. Its the most strategy-centric role if you play it well and don’t just afk ‘babysit’-soak-exp in lane.
You just described what a pos 4 is perfectly. Because pos 5 isn't forced to gank other lanes, you're supposed to babysit your carry and stack jungle camps, the only reason why you would leave your carry is when your mid asks you to buy wards and smokes. And typically, a good pos 5 will not have much farm, meanwhile pos 4 can farm. That's the difference between pos 4 and 5.@@winternitz_
For me, being position 4 is the absolute most important role at my mmr, because VERY VERY FEW PEOPLE UNDERSTAND HOW TO PLAY IT. The 4s in my mmr ALWAYS act as a second 5, even when the enemy team starts making rotations or surprise ganks. Our 3 is always lower level than theirs, has worse timings, the 4 never stacks camps, doesn't contest enemy pulls, harass them... it's horrific the vast majority of the time. I honest to god believe pos 4 is the most misunderstood role in the entire game and there isn't enough videos explaining how to play it right. There probably never will be.
It's been my goal to be the change I want to see and be a better 4 for my teammates. Plus I love thinking about things on a macro scale, how much I can do, not being limited to a lane, and serving up a bit of a chaos factor in the gameplay. I'm the one who can afford to go creep cut a wave and look for couriers, or harass a mid that's already low hp and moving behind their tower, go steal the exp rune or bounty early, deward mid, etc. Hardest thing for me to manage is my own income and exp gain.
Yeah a good 4 makes the pos 3 the highest net worth in the game at 10 minutes and enables a good mid game. Sadly the pos 4 is the most common do nothing role or wannabe core role.
I mean, it depends from game to game what you want to do as a 4.
Sometimes your 3 needs more babysitting in an unfavorable lane.
Sometimes you just need to stack the triangle 4 times so the sven can have a game.
Sometimes you don't have a lane at all, but the 3 can solo lane, so you just rotate mid two times, and the safe lane once.
I rarely find it worth hunting for couriers, you're just going to be under leveled and struggle to have an impact in team fights. 4 actually needs levels and gold more than the 5 does, unless you picked a particularly spell-enabled hero.
Ideally your 3 or 2 plays with you, you can smoke gank the carry etc.
quality of your content is unparalleled. always excellent analysis and presented well. great video dude
Hell yes you know it’s going to be a sick ZQ video when we get the classic ms paint ice background
LMAO last night I was just thinking maybe it's time to make a different background for the powerpoints
@@ZQuixotix I don't think you need to change it if you don't want to. I really like it because it's part of ZQ lore.
I love love love playing support. CM gives me chills every time I queue her up, Witch Doctor has me bouncing all around the map, Ogremagi constantly has me lusting for the next gank!
Sadly, as I have been climbing our of Guardian and into Archon, its just so much easier to win late game as a hard carry who isnt going to waste time dicking around for one more item when we can just push and end =/
I really hope that my core teammates start to get a bit more serious about winning ranked games over boosting their KDA as I climb higher so that I can play the roll I really enjoy.
i got to 4k this week, with just lich pos 5.. took 1 year tho.
just wanted to thank you for being the best dota 2 guide channel on youtube. thanks to your videos I ranked up from archon 2 to divine 4 playing support only. thanks for the tips brother
Unrelated to the video, but something I'd love to see you do is a series that reviews the macro decision making in classic matches. I don't think I've seen any dota content creator do this, and I reckon you're the perfect person for it.
Kind of like how old chess matches get discussed and analysed!
Maybe it's not relevant because the game changes so much between patches, but I bet there's still some core ideas in there that are valuable
I main pos 1. The easiest time I ever had gaining MMR was by playing 5 because I know what my cores want and need and can play according to that. It's almost stress-free
Yeah! Playing multiple roles is a great way to not only be able to handle role swapping, it also let's you better understand how to work with the other positions
100% agree. I main pos 5 and it is the same. The very few times I play as a pos 1 impact much more than people who do it frequently.
I think the best tip is to learn the roles of the lines and play. Or have one main role and the other have a decent level.
In short, learn lines (roles, mechanics, times, counters)
But at the same time you need to hope your core knows what they need to do when you give them what they need. This is somewhat dependant on what your mmr is. For example, I have had plenty of games where I stack many times and my pos 1 refuses to take them. And then later in the game blames me for not stacking….
i play 5 and offlane, cause I know how to make offlaners cry and how when they spike but off meta cheese picks still stomp my ass
The question is when you started playing 5, did you learn the 'support timings' and how we really only get to get one item for our impact, and that one item has to HAVE an impact, or we have failed? This is valuable information for a core, because they can check on their support and not be a tilted voice complaining about something, and instead be someone directing exactly what they need in their lane.
'Don't worry about pulls, just help me harass this ranged 4, I can outhit the 3.'
'Can you rush this item instead so that we can survive ?'
'Sweet, this is a good lane, can you leave me alone now but keep your tp available if they dive?'
This all works 10x better than
'God you fucking suck, I just got harassed out of the lane.'
'*spam ping items after I die*'
'Stop sapping my xp you worthless fuck, you don't know what you're doing!'
A lot of issues in teamplay are precisely because the latter method of communication has been normalized. But it's really -not good- for a team game, and this IS a team game. Zac talking about how supports tend to communicate is absolutely true, and if nothing else, cores learning to communicate despite all the pressure on them to perform well in a core role is a huuuuuge boon that maintains team cohesion even after a losing lane.
This looks like a great channel. I'll stick around.
You are such a smart person. I love the data you put behind in your analysis. You’d make a great data scientist, but I’m really happy I can learn from you instead.
Your note regarding learning core like how you learned offlane is huge. I used to dance and the way to enhance your main dance style is to learn other styles. It’s the same thing for dota
I think that offlane is under looked as being the best role for gaining mmr. You can make the enemy carries early game really hard, you can also get yourself some key items and scale into the later stages of the game well.
When I play support in pubs it is very different to how I play as part of a 5 stack. The main difference is that I am a lot more greedy when it comes to farming. A lot of low mmr supports are afraid to do this, but if you tp to a lane no one else is farming and push it, then go farm a jungle camp, then rinse and repeat a few times suddenly you have blink instead of boots, or a full aghs instead of a more conservative 2000 gold support item, you start to find yourself ending the game with more hero damage dealt than most of your core players. In pubs as a support you can't rely on your core to win the game for you, you have to think about how you as an individual will have the most impact possible.
I would also be interested to see a game mode where its role que but players can't have a preference. Over time everyone averages playing the same amount of games as each position. Okay it would be super rough at first but imagine if someones mmr represented them as a well rounded player, and players suddenly couldn't gain mmr with the attitude that they only play position 1 and that they have to 1 vs 9 every game
I do also find that game mode idea interesting and would like to have it in the game. Perhaps, it could also be "forced" on new players for a few hundred matches?
I tend to meet people in pubs that literally have no clue WHY and HOW stuff needs to be done and WHEN. Because they never really had to do it.
@harry let me guess, you play alot of Zeus offlane to make the enemies carry go nuts
What you said about changing hero pools as a support really made sense to me. My hero pool is very small NP, Ogre, Rubick and lion. In 4.5k mmr NP and rubick are great for transitioning into the carry if my cores are terrible while ogre and lion are a lot harder to do that with. Love the videos man keep at it!
Had to comment for my daily dose of fulfillment , Keep up the great vids Zach. Always love watching.
I think it's also worth noting that "Save" supports are much more impactful the higher MMR you are.
Lion, Shadow Shaman, CM, they'll be useful in the lower ranks, since stuns are always great.
Oracle, Dazzle, on the other hand, can completely save a game with a well timed save, but can be completely wasted when the core can't be trusted.
Venge is also pretty nice even on low mmr. Somehow the heralds keep forgetting you have double life with aghs. Four lives with buyback.
I'm a main pos 3 and, maybe a bias position, i think pos 3 is a great middle ground between support and core and, cuz of that, is also the hardest and most ''vacant'' core position. Has any pos 3 that got outdrafted and beaten like a dog in lane and then decided to itemize and play like a support and still win the game because of this flexibility?
I also find it, although ironic, the easiest position for a core to transition into support or vice versa. And a great way to get to know other core roles as you need to learn the carry patterns (so u can antagonize them better and also learn farming patterns and to last hit) and the mid patterns (to avoid games or learning how to play solo and control the lane better cuz of tower disadvantage).
In any case, maybe i am talking shit, but i would recommend pos 3 first for anyone that wants to exchange roles, just as a test drive.
Was offlane my last game and pos 4 picked sniper. I spent that whole game supporting my pos 4 sniper with sand king and we won.
as 6k mmr main support, I really like to play support in support role against a support (who is core forced to support) in enemy team
I stomp them and gain my free mmr
you can notice them from their impact/positioning
I noticed this issue years ago
you cannot see a support main player doing very bad things in high rank unless they are core and getting their role queue
they tend to play bad, 0 impact, tilt, not care about game, and not doing what they should do and expect the carry to win the game rofl
Everything you say is super true and i've been thinking the same for years, btw as dota patches come i feel more people hover over the support roles now, in unranked games i often get people who instantly mark supports and im forced to play something i suck at in mid or pos1 :D
I just make sure to inform my teammates that under no circumstances should I be allowed to mid, that usually prompts someone to take it for me.
@@Coloptylol Same 😂
Been there... I think it's a luck of the draw thing because usually I can play support as most want carry but many times I mark support show I'm picking a support hero (like warlock even if I'm not picking warlock - because you cannot confuse warlock with a carry pick) then despite my pick, they first pick SS. Then all players show support... I say well I guess I'm playing hard carry, I'll do my best.
Funny thing is, we sometimes win hard because everyone helps each other with a support mindset. Usually more communication too.
On a different note I find when I play solo with a 4 or 3 stack, we lose because they only help each other and ignore me, even if I'm having a good game. I ask them to help and they don't. Or to avoid a fight because I'm out of mana or don't have vision and they feed then ping me.
I view 95% games winnable even if we're down but when the stack feeds one by one over and over... I just watch in horror and type "it's winnable just don't die, we can do this"
😅, they jump in die again when the whole team hasn't respawned.
Enemy hitting the ancient... nm, gg. 😅
great video. I used to play cores with good winrate and had bad winrates on my role token earning support games, quit for a couple years and now maining support and have been climbing fast. I think my biggest weakness has always been map awareness, decision making, game sense etc. and playing support has given me more time to think about those things and build good habits rather than tunnel vision on farm
I do this weird revenge thing where, if core I'm supporting is insanely bad, I will queue up next game as that core to see if I can do better
As a low MMR player who only recently got into ranked: I like playing all roles. I’m probably best at roles 3-5, but I can and will hold my own at 1 and 2 on my hero pool there. What I have found is that I will not, under any circumstances, play a support who doesn’t have good waveclear. I have run into so many core players who have this aversion to shoving waves and never show on the wave. I have games where my Anti Mage has BF+Manta+1 item and still will not hit creep waves. Problem solved: I will show on the wave with my 1 (or 2) nukes, then go hide in the trees and get a ward up or babysit my core. It allows for us to at least hold a lane out of 3, and if I decide to shove out the wave more, generate the map pressure that my cores should be generating but aren’t. I also know that me playing a lot of support makes me a better core player when I do play core (because I will always shove lanes and pay attention to map movements).
Love your videos ZQuixotix!
These videos are unbelievably high quality for the subject matter. Thank you
Depends.low mmr I would say that core, specifically pos 1 or 2 can gain very easy mmr if you are good enough. On the mid mmr ranks, I would say support is better by a bit to gain mmr since at these ranks the cores should know what they are doing, and wins greatly depend on the finer details like pulls, early rotations, crowd control, etc… that are more geared towards supports . In the upper ranks, I feel it’s more about hero synergy and counter picks.
15:30 Honestly, this is all you need to know, I learnt it the hard way.
I think it depends largely on MMR. I was rising from 500 to 1.5k MMR and am continuing to climb. I enjoy playing support a lot, but when I have role queue, I play pos 1, as this is the most reliable way of having influence in the game. When I have no role queue tokens and play support, I enjoy it very much, try to get my core the best laning stage he ever had and get so frustrated, as they don't pull defensive creep aggro, don't hold lane equilibrium and simply run into every enemy hero they see, die and then type "bad support". I hope, when I climb further, I can switch to support, but right now, in that bracket it is so tilting to give your core the best of all lanes and he throws everything away.
But you probably are a bad support...
I'm deeply moved by subscribing! 🤣👍🔥
great video very well put together
Great practical video. It makes sense now how a player with thousands of games can be so terrible in a support role. Not mentioned but I think relevant - when a 'real' support pos4 is faced with a core playing pos5, the real support needs to be flexible and take over those key pos5 activities like warding. Getting upset and raging doesn't fix the situation - because that core support has no idea what needs to happen.
Zquinox casually flexing the offlane winrate 😂
I've stagnated as core player at 2-3k for TEN freaking years with more than 8k games under my belt!!
Switched to support main, and boom, shot up to 4k in just a few hundred games
Ez life for real
I remember a long time ago how hard people fought to be mid. Today it feels like people are less likely to prefer mid because of the stress and blame that gets out on you. Often when I queue for every role I get a core role
Hey! Good discussion!
I am a core player, and core roles are not the same for me. I am midlaner who climbed from legend 2 to ancient 4 during the last three monthes. So sometimes I have to queue for all 5 roles and very often it drops me to play pos3. Since I gained mmr for me now is a real disaster play this role, especially when 2 of my heroes for this role are banned. It is ok for me to play as an offlaner at 2000-3000 mmr, I can win the lane, but I fail at 3600 - 4400 mmr. Besides pos2 I feel pretty comfortable to play as pos4, mainly cause of my hero pool. Don't like pos5 that , but still try to learn supoort role and to help my core.
To sum up. Core roles are not the same and sometimes it is a disaster to play "not your" core role.
fresh cut looking good :)
I don't know why but that bit at 9:05 where zack just said 'don't talk shit' just sent me lmao.
Also in my experience my highest win rate heroes are pos 5, ogre magi and jakiro, compared to my normal role which is mid
I too love playing offlane with a Storm spirit support.
Sadly, even if you pick an independent 4 pos hero, you can always end up with some pos 3 that just wants to farm, doesn't harass the enemy carry/supp, and you as a support don't get to have a lane to gain a couple levels in and are forced to rotate 1-2 levels under the other sidelane.
Got immortal rank after calibration(Specifically roaming 4). I played as support most of the time. So long as you know what you are doing in the first 10 mins makes a big impact in the game and most of the time games can end 20-30 mins coz every one most of the time knows their role. Not some random shit
if you go to ranked leaderboards on dota buff only one or two people on entire first page are support, and not a single offlane main. Most are safe lane or mid. I think this really says it all.
I love this channel so much! And nice video I’ve been thinking a lot about. I feel like the games are much more fun now that I’ve gained 2000 mmr more 😂 had a hard time climbing before the patch because I was stuck in the bottom with diving cores and no coordination.
Now… I love Dota 2 again. The best games are the one where the pos 4 actually is a pos 4 player and I’m a pos 5 player. The coordination is fun where the tp’s are useful, the xp runes are picked up and we use the gates for easy pick offs. Had a game with a dreamy warlock pick… and I was shaman as pos 5. First picking phase… We got solo kills on the cores and that was lovely. Using upheaval and not escape from snakes while taking tower. That was awesome!
Playing as Warlock, I've gained 6 wins out of 7 games. This is the only support that I have found that scales really well with the game throughout the game. Core heroes that are good right now I see is Axe, or Slardar etc. initiators with good abilities to tank hits for the team. But, I will say that as a support with a carry, it's important to harass the other heroes early phase and especially important to deny creeps, then also cut the creeps using nearby camps to bring the creep wave closer to your tower, but not under it, these are the best areas for early on to get the last hits, and safer if you're likely to get ganked etc. I play any role normally. But, in lower ranks (herald 2) most supports don't really support anyway, and you could potentially just pick a strong core, or a carry even as a support especially if your team pick especially bad.
I went from archon to ancient over the past year as a pos 1/2. I legit have been having more success as pos 4 in ancient since I trust my cores more than I did in archon and I have good game sense. The games are more fluid and last less time. All about getting there to a point the playing field seems even and fun
truth is, all support players already knew this on some level, and are all nodding in agreement as you present it so well.
I can't speak for core players, but I hope they can see the light. ;)
Here's an interesting question:
I'm hideously bad with any kind of character that needs more than a little farm. Instead of a guide to farming, how about a guide for what to do with heroes that don't need (or even can't) get a lot of gold and or farm?
Reminds me of that old Kuro/Xboct meme where Kuro is thinking rocket science math, and Xboct just diving and get multi-kills. We need to put up sooo much more effort to get wins, specially at lower brackets.
i enjoy playing support cuz when my bloodlust drives me into constant trades, at worst its pos5 for pos5, often its better, and occasionally its pos5 for pos1, which sometimes can flip a game on its head immediately
The vision game was always important but even more so with the new bigger map. If I notice my supports are dog poop at placing wards then I need to do it, on top of farming, ganking, pushing towers and lanes. Le sigh.
As pos1 i get excited when i see 2 sentries at the start on my 5, thats how you know thats a support mainer, god bless you
As a support, understanding when a core will be strong and that a poor start may have been inevitable after a bad lane match up is critical. Most "only support" players are terrible at understanding this, learn what cores actually want/need (just learn about the meta carry heroes each patch). Sometime all your core needs is space, go make space. Sometimes you have to take over (usually while not forgetting to support), understand the difference.
As a core, learn some basics of warding and pulling and how to drop the greed when you support. If you can pull, stack and ward to a basic level you'll find support much more rewarding... And for the love of god, stop warding safe in your own jungle, sometimes you're gonna die trying to push out your vision for map control, buy a goddang smoke! Your vision determines where your team can/should play.
Valve should hire you for the beginners guide we forever need in dota
You can gain in any role if you're good at the role, but mid has always had the strongest impact. Again though, you still need to be good in the role so if you're bad at mid you'll still lose or breakeven on MMR. So you really need to find a role you're actually good at and specialize at it.
I gained 1500 MMR this month playing hard support but that only happened after I put effort into specializing it.
I am better core player than support, but I still only choose to play 4, because there is less pressure on me to perform and I can just chill and not be anxious. End of the day we are just trying to enjoy our time with the game. Also if you play a 4 that scales well into the late game and can push lanes you are often going to be farmed and have alot of impact anyway
I just queue all roles except mid, but of course I get support most of the time but its fine I am a support player. I think if you're in lower MMR bracket its hard to be support since late game it really revolves around core players, while supports are still strong late game, they are not the traditionally strong because of their damage output or stats but of their utility. Even if you're really farmed as a support and have force staff, lotus orb, solar crest, if your pos 1 is bad, then theres not much you can do. But when you get a core player who knows what to do which is more often in higher MMR, its feels great to stomp lane and see them dominate the game. Or in even games where cores are well matched, the support player itemization and skill goes through and you tip the scales to your core players.
Many times when I was around crusader to legend, it was painful playing support since I can have a good game and even do more damage and kill participation than my cores, I can't carry. But going to higher MMR, when you roll up a lane as support + core duo, you tend to dominate the game and end in 30 min or have very intense matches where the timing of your skills, and items really help your cores do their job.
Good tip is learning a lane and his roles, for example:
sup 4 - offlane
or
sup 5 - hard carry
Learn bouth and play a lot, you will learn what to do thinking better in bouth roles at same time
In summary, specialize lines (mechanics, times, roles). You going to win a lot phase line, sometimes you lose but .. you will know it sooner and there will be less impact for your team.
I play support and often my team has early advantage but they drag the game too long and lose to a team full of cores. 😂😂 this is common in crusader
Lower MMR (up to 4000ish) - Core
Higher MMR (4000ish plus) - Support
As for Core players playing Sup roles - No. I've seen, it's horrible (same otherwise)
1. Cores can't do Sup and Sups can't do Cores, it's the whole mindset that you need to change. (farming, ward placements, game sense, objectives, your role)
2. Mostly Core heroes are not sup heroes (same otherwise) so your feel to the hero won't be 100%, it's like having 1k games with PA and then playing 10 games CM, you gotta spam the hero to have a feeling to him. So when you switch from a core or sup to the opposite role with a hero you don't usually play has extra impact on your gameplay/skill.
You constantly need to think about your role instead of going naturally, it's a muscle memory thing.
You continue to be my favorite dota personality of recent
First it was mid player job to make plays as soon they hit 6 lvl. Then when roaming was a thing, pos 4 was most important. Nowadays i feel like offlane is the by far most important role. Most of meta offlane heroes like doom, legion, dawnbreaker etc are strong from begining to the end of game. So if u can play them good you will win most of the games.
Went from 3k to 6.5k mostly playing support on EU. It’s definitely possible you just need to be more patient. Also, if your cores are idiots, play saving supports. Usually your ‘idiot’ core is only wrong by a 100hp. Heal them, they won’t be wrong as frequently!
BIG time league player here, Ive been interested in learning dota for a while, I gave it a try a couple of years ago thinking id get the hang of it pretty quickly... i couldnt have been more wrong. Any tips on how to get into the game? it's just A LOT of new things, different from what ive come to expect x.x
On another note, great videos, got me hooked despite not playing dota lmao
That's is why i kinda like picking pos 4 hero that can easily farm jungle creep or abandoned lane like
Clinkz, Weaver, Nature Prophet, Witch Doctor, Venomancer, etc
Rarely my core gonna be garbage
But since i got level and more item than the enemy support, i can deal more dmg or even carry out the fight with a single press of a button like death ward
Or if your team can't push high ground, since you are Clinkz you can just run to the opposite t3 tower and dmg that tower so 1/2 of your enemy will be force to stop you and lose the fight if my team understand what happening
I main 3 but played so much 5 and 4 a few months ago that I feel like i gained more net mmr through saving up role tokens, i feel in very low mmr being the support is kinda easier
At low mmr support is DEFINITELY easier to gain mmr. Good supports can just snowball games to the point where there is no coming back. Low mmr players are not good at making comebacks and farming under pressure.
True, as a Mid, Po 4 & Po 5 player
When im auto filled up to be a safelane core, i fucking suck with the teamfight.
But at the same time, sometimes my team core's just doesnt know how to aggro creep, active farming, or even team fight (they either being an anime main character or just late to fights/just dont know what to prioritize in fights)
As a support i want also to add this: very often core players grief supports by either not pushing the lane so supp can pull (and the ofcourse they will complain why I didnt pull), or not pulling defencive agro to bait enemy into me so i can hit them (instead they will take bunch of damage and blame me for not doing anything...), or they wont protect their supp when god damn treant will chase me all the way to t1 tower that that idiot will just be last hitting creeps (and ofcourse flame me for feeding)
Tough support live, we are doing alot but loads of that work never gets appreciated or even noted))))
i play mostly pos 5... and i would say it depends on the mmr. 0-3k/4k mmr is it a gamble ... u ward u buy smoke u ping rosh but only in 0-10% they listen.
i have soooooo many games where the team run bot, i ward bot, than they rotate mid and finaly top in a dark area.... than i ping bot we have wards there lets go control they area and nothing happends. team kill the other team... i see they respawn in 30 sec and the way to rosh is perfect.. i ping rosh nothing happends.. and and and ... this is why pos 4 and 5 mostly stuck in low mmr...
yes they "can" have impact... but its rear and and and and...
I feel like even within the core roles the difficulty to climb varies greatly. Safelane carry is without a doubt the by far easiest role to climb on out of any role right now, and mid, which used to be the second easiest, feels the least useful out of all the roles since portals were added to the game.
What I've learned from my games is that: as a mid, try to stay and win the lane or at least defend the tower and farm instead of going around trying to gank losing lanes. T1 mid means so much for map control since even when you lose T1 on side lanes you still have portals to TP to but once you lose mid the centre TP point is just gone.
Easiest? come boost out of this fuckin Herald bro. You play with these heralds supports you'll go insane, as alot of times from the start they sit around, soack exp and do nothing but try to last hit.
I started playing Dota during Covid and now I’m on the brink of Divine one. I play 80% pos 5 and the rest 4. My biggest advice is be Jonny on the spot with warding and learning to lane efficiently is so important. The hardest ranks to get through are archon and legend imho because cores can press buttons quickly but have zero strategy or map awareness
I agree. Archon and legend don’t understand advantages and timings. Once you get into ancient +, games flow better imo
I found 4 to be a lot more enjoyable and impactful than 5. Too many passive farmers on 1. But usually you can go get early kills with offlaner. If it's not a BB or LC. And you can rotate mid without griefing your solo core.
This is so true with my own experience!! But now with the twin gate, 5 has become much more impactful than before. Pretty sure icefrog noticed how 5 players felt back then.
Because as 5 you suppose to go help offlaner/ward/deward when your 1 starts farming :)
@@longbranchgooberdapple2238 huh? I'm talking about laning. If my 1 is going woods at minute 4 we kinda lost the lane already.
In my bracket pos4 is much more preffered than pos2 and pos3. So I think support role only implies to pos5. (around 3k mmr)
Depends really on what skill level your core has. If they are good enough, climbing as a support is much easier and less stressful. I hard climbed from archon->ancient playing pos 1/3. After that I can occasionally play pos 4/5 (to de-stress myself from farming & get role queue at the same time). Just need to have a really small hero pool of first phaseable broken support.
I play everything but mid, and when I get the role, I just pick a ganker to get things moving. Shit is, I play whatever I feel is less problematic, which lately is the offlane position because, apparently, even divine players pick stupidly greedy, and I just give something for the supports to play the early game off, as the pos 3 is the weird crossroads of farm prio. Now again, I am 5k, so it is the lowest sample that you experience yourself.
Haha i laughed so hard at 16:30 cause i'm a Oracle spammer and had dis exact moments where i popped off with lots of Kills and yea... Hit a wall ^^
For me it was the easiest as a mid. Because I wantch and apply a lot of guides, it's easy to influence the gane from mid, even if I lose my lane. I play gankers. Storm and void spirit mostly but also zeus if the previous 2 are banned. As soon as I know my lane is either hard won(I killed my enemy a couple times) or difficult(either can't farm or I am in danger of being dove) I start ganking. It rarely fails me, really only when enemy mid is far far superior than me or when my allies are determined to lose before I can help them out. Now granted I am only like 1.4k mmr but I have started out as a 1k and got that 400 within like 30-40 games. My win rate on both spirits is around 60-70% and zeus is higher but only like 10 games played, he is my fall back and I don't want to rely on him too much because later on hes easy to counter. I'll probably keep playing in a months time but for now Baldurs gate 3 and escape from Tarkov wipe are keeping me too busy to focus on a game I really only play seriously when nothing elese is happening in the gaming world.
Sure, midlane seems too important. I lose mid, my team fail too :)) very stressful when role queue mid
@@thecrystalblue23 I know as a 1400 MMR player I have barely any credibility to give tips, but try to just not lose mid. I know, "if you are homeless just buy a house"
But lemme try to explain. If you die once, play safe, level up to a good powerspike(for me it's usually lvl 7) buy cheap good value items(one or 2 of the bracelet items, boots and falcon blade) and just go roam. When you are lvl 7 lanes are usually still 4-5. Losing a tower is preferable to dying over and over. And if you get even just an assist in a side lane, you have already offset your death, since one of your teammates got a kill and usually you and one more guy get an assist.
@@HalIOfFamer thanks, means a lot
Recently came back and found out that my rank got reset, and now I've been playing support with guardians and it sooo frustrating. Guess I'll have to do the walk of shame and play core for a bit, or else I'm calibrating too low for the game to be enjoyable.
Was hard stuck at low mmr because I like to support but kept getting the worst carries
Switched to playing carry and went up like 500 mmr
when i'm tired from work. i play my role as support. easier to control the map. i play core when i get sick of my cores throwing after we supports give them a lead. you can carry game from 4 positions.
Nice windows XP powerpoint presentation🎉
I find it to be actually harder to carry as a core rather than a support. As I'm in herald,alot of the times your support is too brain dead to even press his spell on the enemies, which makes it so much difficult to farm (trying to focus on last hitting getting at least 50 cs at min 10) but damn it's impossible when your support is just a sitting duck casting spells on the creep wave.
As a support, if you watch alot of educational content, you have an idea of what to do (sometimes you make mistakes, forget to pull the wave ect..) buy you makes plays that can carry alot of games.
im a pure support and was stuck in archon for a long time because half of the time my cores were total imbecils. Once i made it out of Archon i got to divine in no time. Archon bracket is the elo hell of dota.
I calibrated to Guardian 5 playing supports, then played unranked, then calibrated to Guardian 5 playing pos 1. When I played core I was emotionally damaged as the team complained I didn’t help him fight at minute 10 with no items:( Had to mute everyone. Support is definitely less stressful.
As a support player this video is a gem :)
I think it's kind of silly how if I que both and ONLY support roles that I don't get a token. Like I've spent my time supporting why don't I get a stack of role que tokens if I've done my time mainly in the roles needing filled.
Okay I'm agreeing with most of the stuff, but for mmr range 2-4k, the least played role is offlane, and most mid laners are not real midlaners and they play sf or sniper always. So i think playing good pos 2 or 3 heroes that scale well into the game and have killing potential early are really good at gaining mmr. E.g - play ld mid, lycan,visage,lc off, np,jakiro ,willow supports etc.
Loves it. My role is support and my heroes same 😍😍😍
As a main support player, I think it's very frustrating in lower MMR where core players try to solo win the game instead of doing teamplay.
I think I have broken through this misconception. No Role is easier to gain MMR, the easiest Role to gain MMR is where the strongest Hero sits. The hero with the strongest Winrate determines the best role to play, say for example if WR is broken, then Pos 1,2,3 WR will be highest impact. But say WR drops to 42% winrate, and suddenly Lich has 65% winrate based on statistics, then 5,4 Lich is the best to gain MMR. So the best role changes based on what Hero is currently in the role, the strongest.
7:16 idk man, I am a support player, but I got tilted player like once every 2/3 games. Not tilted on me, but still they would be mad on like other cores, or maybe the other support. I don't see that less tilt since it's just happen everyday XD
had a naga in a game who just expected us to do well against a team who had better draft and farmed for the whole game 700 gpm... 9k total damage
i lovve playing support last hitting was always my weakness so that why I don't play core. SUpport is easier and I like to play sup like wd and ss subtle carry supports
There is a variable that you haven't mentioned and that made me spam support to rise MMR.
The relative skill of the roles in Dota is not equal.
Meaning, the skill level required to be a 6k carry is vastly higher than the skill level needed to be a 6k support.
It's not only like you say, that support players are more thoughtful and cores are more instinct-players. It's also that support roles attract people that want less responsibility, less punishment of mistakes and a more easy-going game experience. Resulting in a lower skilled comparison group than core players.
When I recently started solo queuing a few months ago after years of exclusive party queue, I played mostly offlane and quickly rose MMR. But as someone who approaches Dota from a very strategic and thoughtful perspective and always played all roles and heroes, I was baffled by the low quality of 5k supports in WEU. And they were too many to all be core players earning role queue tokens, because in WEU at 5k, you very often get offlane or mid when queuing all roles.
Obviously, as someone who was underranked, I was dissatisfied with quite a few cores as well. But the support quality was just way worse.
So at some point, I switched to support.
After all, if the comparison group is as unskilled as I estimated, it should be easy to outperform them so hard, that I win equally as much as I do playing core.
And I did. I had winrate of more than 60% playing core, but as I changed to playing support, my winrate even rose to 66% in the last month.
I'll hit 6k in about 8 games (was ~4.4k before starting to solo queue) and I'll keep playing support until I feel like playing another role would be more impactful. But as of now, difference between my and the enemies pos 1+2 is neglegible and I simply win the game by surperior vision game and macro decisionmaking, resulting in a better game for my team and therefore have my cores win the game.
A lot of good/pro players, refer to pos 4 as the hardest role in the game. All roles have their own skill floor and ceiling, with the ceilings all being really high, yes supports have way lower skill floors but once you start getting beyond 4k you cant just sit on that floor anymore and expect to gain mmr by just being a "low skill" support.
The worst part about low mmr supporting is picking an imitator or hoping your offline will do it.
And if he does hopefully he doesn't do it alone
And when he does do it alone hopefully it's under his tower
and when it's in the middle of the lane hopefully he can same himself
And when he doesn't hopefully I don't get pinged.
Just communicate with your teammates. Solves 99% of issues.
i got to ancient(4k) this week, with just spamming dazzle and lich pos 5.. took 1+ year tho, but it has been fun.. I don't mind if it takes 5 more years to reach 8k
not biased at all btw , good vid
At the end of the day what matters is having fun playing the game you like the role