I ride a 450 amongst 250 and 300 smokers.I consider the 450 as a training tool as in weight/resistance training. If you can manage the weight ,hp and considerable extra effort required to ride a 450 effectively, the two strokes and small bore four strokes will feel like bicycle's.
Probably depends on your riding style. The 450s I've riden don't feel heavier or harder to ride. They feel almost as light as a 250f and have way easier power to use. If you're smooth and relaxed, a 450 is better. A 250f needs a more energy on the rider's part to extract the performance. If a 450 is making you tired then you just need to relax and stop riding it like a smaller bike.
I tune my TX300 so that I can ride it in the woods with the throttle wide open without the bike doing anything bad or making me exhausted. I spend a lot of time in 4th gear when most riders are in 2nd. Traction. Momentum. You can always hit the clutch if you need a boost. There's only so much power a rider can handle and that is how you should think when choosing a bike.
Same thing with a 450 traction low revs and torque with momentum is how i ride the 450, your tx 300 sounds good that set up probably the same just touque it around and flow fast .
Love my 23 350sxf! My 21 250sxf with your 270 piston was able to hang with my buddies honda 450 in the holeshot. He was not happy lol said he banged 3rd gear and could not pull on me, stayed with him
I can see the reason why people like 350's but personally everytime I ride one it feels like a glass half empty to me. Can't flog it around like my 250f and can't torque it around like a 450
@HPRaceDevelopment because you can't just mash the throttle on hard and rip around all day like a 250f. It's got almost 10hp more plus that extra mid range hit, they also feel closer in "weight" to a 450 than a 250. I've been around guys riding 350's since 2013 and never have I seen someone ride one like a 250 they all ride them like 450's holding them in the midrange
@tcmx Exactly its in no where land , ive ridden 4 models of the different 350 for good periods of time to like it or see if i do , i ride 450 for the low maintenance costs torque and fun with a lazy hold one gear when i want or just short shift that thing . Just not enough torque on the 350 and rev it to the moon to find the HP when needed , almost like 2t 250 not really but i know exactly what your saying .
@motozz8258 yeah man these 450's are so easy to ride these days especially a gear high. I've got a 24 450sxf which is great for lazy days just riding for fun and I did have a full mod 250sxf which I raced with until it was stolen just before xmas which was easily the funnest bike to ride as long as I kept it pinned. Can't do either of those things all day on a 350
Low rpm performance is important. Making the same power at a lower rpm is always better. One thing you didn't mention is a slower spinning engine has less gyro effect and therefore makes the bike turn easier and feel lighter. The weight of reciprocating components is important too but these new 450s have some light rotating assemblies and combined with low rpms really makes them feel light on their feet. I don't know why you'd choose a 350 unless you're a really light and small rider and the 450 is too fast for you.
Mike Alessi and Antonio Carolli both proved the 350 was competitive with 450s, but I've got to assume the 450 is easier to ride fast on or more Austrian sponsored riders would be on them.
Yes they did. I think lack of true knowledge on the subject and the deeply routed insecurity that a 450 could be better hold back pros from choosing it. Not to mention this video only showcases a stock 450 - in modified form there is no power comparison - the 450 can easily put out more than a 350. Now - the bigger question then becomes how much power is enough…the e bikes will very quickly challenge the limit of what people really need
How big difference in hp does it make with a rear steel sprocket vs a aluminium on a 450 / 250 2 stroke? just got a steel one for the longer life span but maybe better to get aluminium for the rotational mass?
You should do the math to show each curve with exactly the same speed at the rev limiter. Normalizing all to 50 mph at the fuel clip would be a great way to compare HP curves.
Yes, that's the correct way to accurately compare actual power output once normalized. The actual chart shown is all bikes shown in 2nd gear - which is how they are "ridden"
But as you mentioned the gearing can always be changed so that peak speed is rather arbitrary. In practice any particular desired peak speed in second gear could be hit within a percent or so.
@@HPRaceDevelopment your business is making money off the needs of bikes ahha but your sucking in the gullible with your piston size analogy's . Good business the 350s arnt they Money Money Money ! How many hrs on these pinging rockets can you get without rebuilding them ? HP RACE DEvelopment its all in the name , Dollars expense go get it but plenty of 450 riders now all about torque x rpm equals HP 450 is the catergory of the sport the Professional ranks where the big dogs show how its done . Leave the 450 shade rubbish behind and keep selling to your church of 350
Id like to see if aftermarket pipes without a tone actually make more HP. And then with a tone. And on this 23+ 350 or other bike. Tell us if the pipe manufacturers are lying to us!
@HPRaceDevelopment The torque curve was shown. Not even close. But, forget the dyno & ride them. The 450 rips & rips harder from anywhere in the rpm range compared to a 350. The 350 is cool but needs to be flogged on to run with a 450.
Yeah well Carolli says otherwise at a pro level but you confirmed nicely what i have always said and that is no need for a 350 unless fashion is your thing. See the touque of the stock 450s and the hp where you ride a 450 , thats the reality and they are bone stock and pump gas. So 350 fancy fuel ecu and who knows what else to make on paper more hp at the very top 250 like powers on paper revs times touque , i think the ktm revs to the highest also when the 250 on paper hp MXA toss shootout made more hp. Apart from a signifigant cost to improve 350 you have service intervals on top of those extra costs up front. RPM equals rebuilds , maintenance industry that profits from maintenance. Expenditure is what it is so your spending even more money again to stop the 350 handgrenades Bang . 450 or 250 is the catergorys and the smart money goes 450 torquing the lower rpm around while ya 350 is pinging up in the revs , built engine type rpm to make that hp thousands of dollars and have to buy race fuel. The Church of 350 marketing is the biggest amazement proven without a Dyno hehe , content creators and industry Mechanics Marketing contracts and Suspension tuners love the ktm gravy money train . It just is ! Kaleb Russel thats called marketing people , you will never hear about the Maintenance and upgrade costs of that 350 , and if Allowed in the shill show gncc competetors on other manufactured 450s you would have realised Stew Baylor flogged everyone on the 450 fx . Marketing billions of dollars and huge engine rebuild costs on top of that to create a 350 best Perception .
Is a 350 competitive. Ya absolutely, as it's 90 percent rider skills, and most riders aren't capable of holding a 450 wide open all the way around the track. A pro on a 125 will still smoke most guys on a 450
@@HPRaceDevelopment Yup, down low. say you are riding at ~1500rpm in the woods in wet soaky ground, an old 601 husky will just rip.. And a 450 will at least do it better than a 350. Plain physics.
Smoke and mirrors. No the 350 is not competitive, Apart from a couple of guys who ran them for clicks , nobody rides the 350, which is legal in the open class, because the 450 is smoother, less frenetic and cancels out mistakes like bad line choices with a flick of the wrist. Maybe Barcia and his ilk could make sense of it but that's it.
I ride a 450 amongst 250 and 300 smokers.I consider the 450 as a training tool as in weight/resistance training. If you can manage the weight ,hp and considerable extra effort required to ride a 450 effectively, the two strokes and small bore four strokes will feel like bicycle's.
Probably depends on your riding style. The 450s I've riden don't feel heavier or harder to ride. They feel almost as light as a 250f and have way easier power to use. If you're smooth and relaxed, a 450 is better. A 250f needs a more energy on the rider's part to extract the performance. If a 450 is making you tired then you just need to relax and stop riding it like a smaller bike.
That drag race would be splendid.
Yes, and I still want to see that cr500 2 stroke dyno
I tune my TX300 so that I can ride it in the woods with the throttle wide open without the bike doing anything bad or making me exhausted. I spend a lot of time in 4th gear when most riders are in 2nd. Traction. Momentum. You can always hit the clutch if you need a boost. There's only so much power a rider can handle and that is how you should think when choosing a bike.
Same thing with a 450 traction low revs and torque with momentum is how i ride the 450, your tx 300 sounds good that set up probably the same just touque it around and flow fast .
Excellent explanations and I learned a bunch 👍
Love my 23 350sxf! My 21 250sxf with your 270 piston was able to hang with my buddies honda 450 in the holeshot. He was not happy lol said he banged 3rd gear and could not pull on me, stayed with him
niice
as long as you know you win the race to the rebuild costs as well .
Let's see the drag race and some lap time comparisons.
Do you have any videos on the dyno numbers for your 300cc big bore kit for the yz250f
I can see the reason why people like 350's but personally everytime I ride one it feels like a glass half empty to me. Can't flog it around like my 250f and can't torque it around like a 450
Why can't you flog it like a 250f
@HPRaceDevelopment because you can't just mash the throttle on hard and rip around all day like a 250f. It's got almost 10hp more plus that extra mid range hit, they also feel closer in "weight" to a 450 than a 250. I've been around guys riding 350's since 2013 and never have I seen someone ride one like a 250 they all ride them like 450's holding them in the midrange
@tcmx Exactly its in no where land , ive ridden 4 models of the different 350 for good periods of time to like it or see if i do , i ride 450 for the low maintenance costs torque and fun with a lazy hold one gear when i want or just short shift that thing . Just not enough torque on the 350 and rev it to the moon to find the HP when needed , almost like 2t 250 not really but i know exactly what your saying .
@motozz8258 yeah man these 450's are so easy to ride these days especially a gear high. I've got a 24 450sxf which is great for lazy days just riding for fun and I did have a full mod 250sxf which I raced with until it was stolen just before xmas which was easily the funnest bike to ride as long as I kept it pinned. Can't do either of those things all day on a 350
Couldn’t agree more with your comment choose one or the other 250f or a 450 hated my 350
Low rpm performance is important. Making the same power at a lower rpm is always better. One thing you didn't mention is a slower spinning engine has less gyro effect and therefore makes the bike turn easier and feel lighter. The weight of reciprocating components is important too but these new 450s have some light rotating assemblies and combined with low rpms really makes them feel light on their feet. I don't know why you'd choose a 350 unless you're a really light and small rider and the 450 is too fast for you.
Mike Alessi and Antonio Carolli both proved the 350 was competitive with 450s, but I've got to assume the 450 is easier to ride fast on or more Austrian sponsored riders would be on them.
Yes they did. I think lack of true knowledge on the subject and the deeply routed insecurity that a 450 could be better hold back pros from choosing it.
Not to mention this video only showcases a stock 450 - in modified form there is no power comparison - the 450 can easily put out more than a 350. Now - the bigger question then becomes how much power is enough…the e bikes will very quickly challenge the limit of what people really need
Imagine the Expense getting those 350s to compete and then the costs of maintenance , Huge ! Carolli said it himself anyway he needed the 450 .
The professor in his laboratory 🥼🧪
Please do the wheel speed chart of 125 150 250 2t compared to 4 and don’t forget the 6 speed
How big difference in hp does it make with a rear steel sprocket vs a aluminium on a 450 / 250 2 stroke? just got a steel one for the longer life span but maybe better to get aluminium for the rotational mass?
You should do the math to show each curve with exactly the same speed at the rev limiter. Normalizing all to 50 mph at the fuel clip would be a great way to compare HP curves.
Yes, that's the correct way to accurately compare actual power output once normalized. The actual chart shown is all bikes shown in 2nd gear - which is how they are "ridden"
But as you mentioned the gearing can always be changed so that peak speed is rather arbitrary. In practice any particular desired peak speed in second gear could be hit within a percent or so.
Lmao about MX guys being size queens that was hilarious and true. They love big bores and long strokes
@@microsoft790 said it better than did i shoulda used that
@@HPRaceDevelopment your business is making money off the needs of bikes ahha but your sucking in the gullible with your piston size analogy's . Good business the 350s arnt they Money Money Money ! How many hrs on these pinging rockets can you get without rebuilding them ? HP RACE DEvelopment its all in the name , Dollars expense go get it but plenty of 450 riders now all about torque x rpm equals HP 450 is the catergory of the sport the Professional ranks where the big dogs show how its done . Leave the 450 shade rubbish behind and keep selling to your church of 350
Great vid D
So a 250f pipe on a 350f give little more torq down low and less top end,
If you have a 270kit on it does it also need to bigger pipe?
Its only 20cc
@@bernardvanderveen7656 we found certain pipes to work much better on good running 270s than othets
Id like to see if aftermarket pipes without a tone actually make more HP. And then with a tone. And on this 23+ 350 or other bike. Tell us if the pipe manufacturers are lying to us!
@@amacoutdoors2076 without a tone? what do you mean
Lets whip it out boys. 😄
So 450 it is. Size wins. No replacement for displacement.
not sure we showed that…
@HPRaceDevelopment
The torque curve was shown. Not even close. But, forget the dyno & ride them. The 450 rips & rips harder from anywhere in the rpm range compared to a 350. The 350 is cool but needs to be flogged on to run with a 450.
Yeah well Carolli says otherwise at a pro level but you confirmed nicely what i have always said and that is no need for a 350 unless fashion is your thing. See the touque of the stock 450s and the hp where you ride a 450 , thats the reality and they are bone stock and pump gas. So 350 fancy fuel ecu and who knows what else to make on paper more hp at the very top 250 like powers on paper revs times touque , i think the ktm revs to the highest also when the 250 on paper hp MXA toss shootout made more hp. Apart from a signifigant cost to improve 350 you have service intervals on top of those extra costs up front. RPM equals rebuilds , maintenance industry that profits from maintenance. Expenditure is what it is so your spending even more money again to stop the 350 handgrenades Bang . 450 or 250 is the catergorys and the smart money goes 450 torquing the lower rpm around while ya 350 is pinging up in the revs , built engine type rpm to make that hp thousands of dollars and have to buy race fuel. The Church of 350 marketing is the biggest amazement proven without a Dyno hehe , content creators and industry Mechanics Marketing contracts and Suspension tuners love the ktm gravy money train . It just is ! Kaleb Russel thats called marketing people , you will never hear about the Maintenance and upgrade costs of that 350 , and if Allowed in the shill show gncc competetors on other manufactured 450s you would have realised Stew Baylor flogged everyone on the 450 fx . Marketing billions of dollars and huge engine rebuild costs on top of that to create a 350 best Perception .
their's no replacement for displacement. Peak HP numbers are not the end all. I do prefer a 350 though.
@@fox13z400 all things being equal - but 450s arent equal in std form…so its a toss up!
o2+revs
Is a 350 competitive. Ya absolutely, as it's 90 percent rider skills, and most riders aren't capable of holding a 450 wide open all the way around the track. A pro on a 125 will still smoke most guys on a 450
it cant compete in touque
True, but why is power the benchmark and not torque for performance?
It doesn’t need to. Has way better track manners than a 450.
@HPRaceDevelopment
Speaking on 350's & 450's, horsepower isn't the be all end all in moto. Delivery & usability is.
Yes,, all true,
But when the 350 bogs, the 450 runs eights around it....
@@Peter_Granfors 350s bog?
@@HPRaceDevelopment Yup, down low.
say you are riding at ~1500rpm in the woods in wet soaky ground, an old 601 husky will just rip..
And a 450 will at least do it better than a 350.
Plain physics.
Which bathroom do 350 riders use is my only question 🙋♂️ 🚹
@@phatheadracingmx the in between one im told
hahahah
The one at their house, rather than the one in a hospital !!
I dont think it has door either that bathroom, like the airbox lid door on the dyno .
Smoke and mirrors. No the 350 is not competitive, Apart from a couple of guys who ran them for clicks , nobody rides the 350, which is legal in the open class, because the 450 is smoother, less frenetic and cancels out mistakes like bad line choices with a flick of the wrist. Maybe Barcia and his ilk could make sense of it but that's it.
ac222 won a lot of world championships on custom works yzf 400s and then 350s…
Of all the current 450 riders, Barcia is probably the most able to make a 350 work out there against the 450s.