I have a serious question for Adam. Have you already did a MythBusters about reverse engineering a washing machine to become a generator??? A generator that in theory can allegedly power a home. Can you do a review on this PLEASEEEEEE?????!!!!!! Thank you Sir. (here it is) m.th-cam.com/video/0ieFZI4-6K8/w-d-xo.html
I had lunch with a US District court judge to discuss attorneys... he went on to say that keeping clients apprised of how the case is going is the largest complaint. He said that lawyers whom provided at best questionable legal advice, the cases were not going well, however they kept their clients in the information loop (good bad or indifferent) had fewer complaints than those providing great legal service, advancing their client's interests, and many times ultimately winning the cases, but failing to keep the clients informed.
Great talk Adam. You need to mention mechanic's liens. I once got stiffed on a house painting job and filed a lien. 40 (yup, 40) years later the lady died, and her kids tried to sell the house. No go thanks to my lien. I got paid, plus interest, for nine times the original debt. I did need to refile every 7 years, but the annoyance was worth it. Something to think about...
Yea I feel like that’s across the board with businesses. People who like to “get over” on people with unnecessary/over charges etc. think of themselves as good business men. I call it being a crappy person personally.
Oh I've been there, one customer of mine (I work for a lawn care company) wanted his son's yard (40,000+ ft²) treated for the price of his yard(16,000 ft²) and kept talking me down, talking me down, till I just said "I've gotta talk to my boss" and of course my boss said no. So I just bumped his estimate price up a bit. And his whole justification for it, he said, was you're getting 2 yds out here. Yeah, sure, at a heavy discount🙄 And we wouldn't be making any money on it. And for all that effort, it would take me over an hour to do it, pushing a heavy spreader, full of fertilizer, usually in hot weather and they're both on hillsides as well. Did I mention they're huge yards? And somehow I doubt HIS yard was actually 16,000 ft² because it looks a lot bigger. I'm sure he talked the other technician who initially measured his yard, into lowering his estimate to that. And would you believe it, he was a contractor, go figure.
I remember watching the commentary for Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow and the director was SO PLEASED with himself, puffed up with pride, that the movie looked so good and was so low budget. "to think, we accomplished this with only 200k" (or whatever I don't remember the details.) That's when somebody else reminded him "well... the only reason that was possible is because the artists donated so muxh of their time and essentially worked for free because they believed in the vision" and you could hear him take that in and deflate a little bit. He really wanted all that credit and was just then realizing he was surrounded by amazing people
My first red flag for identifying a problem client is the one that starts out by telling me how easy my job is and how simple this project will be. When that happens, my price doubles before the first price quote is given.
“How they are in the beginning is how they’re gonna be all the way through” is truly some of the best business advice I’ve ever heard. This applies to EVERYTHING, even getting a job at Walmart.
I had a client stiff me around $2500 and a year or so later I ran into him at the grocery store where he acted like we were old friends. When I reminded him he never paid me, he literally ran away from me across the parking lot, got in his car and drove away! 😳🙄
As a professional maker (woodworker) this is my therapy. Hearing someone who is as successful as Adam describe going through the same bad situations I’m currently going through helps me so much.
That "figure out what the client really wants, not what they're telling you they want" thing is really important... And not just in model building. I have done consulting work as a data analyst in academia, and early on if someone asked how to run a particular analysis, I'd help them run that analysis. Maybe 10% of the time it would turn out the analysis they asked for was actually what they wanted. The rest of the time, whether they were a PhD, MD, grad student, whoever... they'd get the result and then ask "what does that imply about XYZ?" Usually nothing. We need to do a different analysis for that. Now we save everyone so much time (money) by setting aside the initial request and asking tons of questions before we get started.
This! Absolutely this. I've been consulting for two decades and I gotta tell ya, the job became so much easier--and my reputation got so much better--once I learned to stop giving clients what they asked for and started giving them what they really needed. I kick myself for how long it took to learn the lesson, because when my dad ran his hardware store he never asked people what parts or tools they were looking for, but rather what they were trying to fix or trying to build. Knowing the desired outcome is infinitely more important than understanding the initial request!
I've told clients: "You can tell me what you would like me to do, or what you would like to accomplish; not both." The ones that take offense at that are the ones who want to micromanage and think they know better than the experts they are hiring to do a job.
@ERNesbitt I've said basically the same thing too many times to count. I've also gotten to the point where I've flat out told people if you knew how to do this better than I do (or at all) I wouldn't be here. That either sorts out the relationship or breaks it and I'm usually fine either way haha
Exactly what they asked for, but not what they need. OMG how many times this has come up. Yes, recognizing your client/customer/business partner does not really understand the question they are asking is key to finding exactly what they want. Oftentimes that is a matter of trying to educate your opposite to be able to understand the question they want to ask, but don't know how.
When I was in high school our school offered a work experience program where the school would hire out students in specific trade classes for small jobs. Student would both get paid (albeit, well under market rates) and have some resume fodder. Through this a nearby small town hired me to design their website. I did it, they were kind of a nightmare client, complaining about stuff like my placeholder images when they kept delaying giving me the actual images they wanted for the finished site, telling me to use a different font while not responding to my emails with different previews, etc. Anyway, I finally get it completed and the client says they are satisfied, and my teacher tells me to hold back on giving the actual files to them, something is wrong. Well turns out they hadn't paid the school yet, and my teacher suspected that they intended to stiff me on the payment once I handed over the finished site. Seems like my teacher was right, when the school told them that the website would be delivered as soon as payment was confirmed, the town staff member we had been talking to totally ghosted us. We never heard back from them again.
Related to clients not liking the color of primer-gray models: In software development we use UI mockup tools that are intentionally designed to make the interface look like an ugly sketch, because any time a client sees a pretty mockup, they think the software is done. Equally frustrating is any time a client starts a sentence with "It shouldn't be that hard to..." It's always followed by something that's either difficult, impossible, or just plain doesn't make sense.
When I was being taught prototypying, the professor specifically told us you'll have a better experience starting with hand drawn paper prototypes then jumping straight to digital wireframes.
@@AxGryndr Still true today. Sketches on paper, whiteboards or the like are so much cheaper, faster and more flexible than anything involving tooling when you're figuring out what needs to be done. If you can do this in little workshops with the client, even better.
@@Milesco The more business friendly way to respond to that is to say "what makes you say that?" It either leads to a deeper understanding of what they want, or it exposes how little they actually know.
I've been stiffed on a job before and the client was a nightmare to deal with afterwards. What they didn't expect what how much of a pain in the ass I was going to be
I've been there, but there's also a point at which you don't want the Sunk Cost fallacy to come into play where you spend more time/money/resources chasing after bad money. That's a very hard lesson to have to learn, because you're even poorer for trying to get what you deserve.
The first time a client flat-out refused to pay me, I got so anxious I vomited on the drive home. Funny thing, I had a 'gut feeling' about the guy for the three months we worked on the project. Trust those feelings if they don't fade over time! Human evolution installed 'creepy-vibes' to keep us out of subtle danger.
I cannot understand these people. They are so proud of themselves for saving money but they don't realize while it's just one thing they got for free, it hours of work you could've been spending on something else. Literally working a minimum wage job for those hours would've netted you more money. How do they think that is fair.
I interviewed for a crew position with a captain who reminded me of a contractor I'd worked with once, who went nuts on me and started blaming me for all his mistakes before firing me. Had the same affect, attitude, frustrated sighs, everything. As it turned out, the captain was just as hellish of a boss, but for completely different reasons: alcoholism, and either narcissism or BPD or something like that. The one thing they both had was an unhealthy obsession with every detail of their optics in front of the client, even at the expense of the actual job. I should have got up from that interview and excused myself. Instead, I spent a hellish summer with an insane alcoholic captain, and never got a sea service letter.
when i worked in a vw restoration shop we required1/3 down. 1/3 in progress and 1/3 at completion with additional charges when the customer changed his mind about a certain portion of the job, i.e. changed the paint color or optional accessories. he didn't get the keys until the final check was in hand. not a perfect solution but it helped. unfortunately the shop owner backslid into his cocaine habit and everything went south for everyone. he cheated me out of two weeks pay.
@@Vinemaple The best con is the guy who waits till the pay is due and then walks through your job saying you did this wrong, this took too long, this is below your pay grade, you made someone mad when you did this, and that's why I'm not going to pay you. And like you said, nine times out of ten the things he's suddenly complaining about (not a word during the job, naturally) are all failings of his that you had to grit your teeth through, doing the best job you could with not enough information, materials, training, experience, whatever. That guy made me a union man.
I think it's true in pretty much all businesses. Some clients just aren't worth trying to do business with because they have unrealistic expections. Or the expectation isn't one where the work is mutually beneficial. So you can end up spending a lot of money on the bid, clarifcations, revisions, and then get to BAFO (Best And Final Offer) and still expect you to drop your prices. I think the expectation is that if you're in the hole for so much already, you may as well dig deeper. You get to know those customers pretty fast, and they eventually discover nobody responds to their bids, or quote requests. I think it also must be harder in the creative world because like Adam said, the language is different. I might have a vision in my mind of what I want, but struggle with communicating that. I guess it's also true with defining things like quality.
Freelance CAD, 3d printer and machinist here. I have been stiffed on jobs before, and it is almost always the biggest people who can easily afford the thing that they agreed to pay for.
As an ex-waiter/bartender, rich people are the worst tippers, it is just the one in two hundred that does tip, tips CRAZY because they used to be a bartender and know how much it matters. Working class guys, even the guys that look like they might be homeless, ALWAYS tip.
Worked for an established landscape company that won a few states, regional and national awards for our projects. I was shocked to learn about one of these award winning properties being owned by a couple who refused to pay their bills on time (for later projects)
They don't get that way spending their own money...folks in comfort are always looking to scrape, finagle, haggle, lowball, complain, sometimes cheat or lie , or just about break their own neck to save literally $5 even if they have all the financial success they'd ever need for one person. Yeah, it's spiritually fatiguing to say the least. If you ask them, they'd call it "shrewd business practice". I call it being a sh!tty human being.
Worked as a stenographer for a while, mostly doing depositions. Lawyers are the *worst* clients. I've never had one actually stiff me, but they almost always delay as far as they can: Either paying on literally the last day they can before late fees start to accrue, or not paying until I send them a certified letter saying I'm going to sue them if they don't pay up.
Absolutely, when he said the clients are attempting to solve a problem and you have to figure out what that problem is, THAT is the job. You don't give them what they ask for, you give them (and help them understand) what they need.
@@DarcyCowan and sometimes you give them what they need and tell them it's what they asked for because they're too arrogant and think they know how to do what you do better than you do. I'm confident this happens in Adam's field too.
@@ZiggyTheHamster and then they tell you that you have to hand over the source code (for free) as the whole thing is their intellectual property because they did all the thinking and you just did the coding...
lol I was just going to write the same thing. I'm not a freelancer, but I work for a small web dev shop that has many clients, and pretty much all of our clients have to be managed the way Adam describes. It's taxing.
I am thankfully retired after 25+ years in residential construction and customer service. So much of what you talked about applies to so many of my homeowners. Thank GOD I don’t have to deal with the public anymore…they will suck the life force out of you and demand more.
It's an unfortunate fact that the most artistic and technical people are the worst at business. I've found that the smaller production companies are often the easiest to deal with, since they understand budgeting and reality. The bigger ones are notorious for asking for a price for a specific prop or controller and then demanding more and more features, expecting it for the same cost. Each change they demand involves hours or days of more work, sometimes starting from scratch.
This "managing client expectations" is so accurate. As a Freelance photographer and filmmaker, I have to deal with this all the time. Thanks, Adam for all your insights and stories.
I've been a (mostly) freelance creative my entire career. Thank you so much for addressing these issues. I've been in this racket for a long time, and some of the lessons you mention were hard learned after years of frustration on my end. I truly believe that following your gut is also super important. If you're getting a bad vibe from a prospective client, walk away. I learned that lesson a few times. There's always a bad mojo around people like that, you need to sniff it out. Believe me, losing some $$$ walking away from a sketchy gig pays dividends for your mental and physical well-being. As far as being stiffed goes, I've had clients try to dodge my invoices, but that's when I sic my wife on them. She's a tenacious honey badger when it comes to collecting. Relentless. God how I love her.
Really good advice. I work in data analytics and modeling and face a lot of the same communication issues with customers. We always have to remember that they're the ones who know what they want but can't always articulate those needs, and we're the ones who can make (almost) literally whatever they ask for. It's up to us to figure out how to translate their "wants" into a product that works for them, even when (especially when) it's not quite what we'd do ourselves. Over time the communication and relationship often improves to a very efficient and satisfying one.
I had a client that I was installing custom plaster mouldings for in their home and this job was going to take the better part of 3 months to finish. Within the first month I saw him berate, belittle, and scream at other trades as well as short pay me on 2 invoices with the promise of more on the back end. With red flags everywhere, I decided to walk knowing my 3rd invoice was probably not going to get paid. Another installer took over my job and got ripped off almost 10 grand, I warned him what he was getting into. In the end I lost a few thousand, but it was educational, and I better know how to spot scammers and stay away.
This is hands down SOME OF THE BEST PROFESSIONAL ADVICE I have ever heard. I went down so much of this rabbit hole with my first real photography client. I asked the questions that I thought would make it clear what they wanted. I was 1000% wrong… simply because they didn’t understand the ‘language’ I was speaking from a technical standpoint. Wound up getting paid but never hired again.
Adam what you are saying applies to pretty much any customer service industry. For example, i am an hvac technician and have been for over 20 years. At this point i manage a large campus for a multinational prominent bank. You would think that the facilities maintenance company would hire knowledgeable staff however i am constantly interpreting and sometimes interviewing them to find out what exactly it is there looking for so i can provide that. Honestly even most customers are like that, ten minutes with the customer can save hours of time!
All good advice… I’m an architect, own and operate my own small practice (over 15 years). Jamie’s advise on difficult clients is spot on. Listening and problem solving is an Art! Communication is key and developing the skill of saying no without actually saying “no” is very valuable.
I'm a builder...I've never been "stiffed." Get a contract signed, get partial payment upfront (maybe even 50%), maybe even do a credit check on the customer if possible. Most importantly, always be willing to walk away from a job if they are difficult or flaky in the bidding process. The best advice I ever received was from my uncle when he said -"Sometimes the best deals you make are the ones you walked away from."
Excellent advice Adam, (and Jamie!) Over the years, I've learned to spot these folks a mile away. Many times I have refused to bid work after one consultation. Too many people look at makers+fixers as a lower class of people. Like because we are in YOUR headspace we need to be led around by the nose, treated as a child with the wrong crayon. Keep strong everyone, and remeber this: A customers ignorance is not a good reason to capitulate. Your time is valuble.
As a maker of web sites, I run into the same thing about color when something is just a mock-up for layout and/or functionality. This is why black and white wireframes and flowcharts on paper can *sometimes* be better than a prototype. It is maddening to get feedback on color and fonts and photos despite saying, "This is not the color/font/photo..." every time.
I would still advise you to patiently talk the client through the colors/fonts/whatevers that you are going to use. For one they are not trained to imagine all of this without your help. For another there are enough shoddy web "designers" out there who will proceed to deliver an even uglier color, hideous fonts and bad pictures in an inadequate layout. Besides: what your client is imagining and what you think he's imagining are two completely different things.
Clients don't want to sit there silently while you work - they want to give input, it's human nature. A lot of folks are just at a point where the only thing they understand about a website is what they can see - ie, fonts, color styles, pictures, so they'll treat that as highest priority. I've found patience is definitely key in my experience for a good client-dev relationship.
I got stiffed on a job for some pretty elaborate cosplay stuff (not cheap work either). Almost 2 years later; my friend and I spotted the dude at a con, and we may or may not have found out what room he was staying in, and stole everything I made for him and threw it away.
Loved your wrap up comments about communicating with the client. It is so important to get to a place where you and the customer are talking about the same thing
Such good advice. I teach HS engineering and I’ve always got people coming by. Just the other day I had someone come in my shop asking for a 3’x4’ complex model. After we talked for awhile he looked my bank of ender 5s and said “Can’t you just 3D print it all? That’s really what I want.”
@5:40 My wife said something similar to me about a month back, I'd been working with a client on a project for about 6 months. Every time I`d produce drawings, measurements etc they would change the design. I`d go back re-design send drawing etc and it got to a point that they asked for a particular change that would mean shrinking the main section of the design by 50%. Now I thought their idea was actually great, a little complicated but it would have been the best version. I was excited to get this done, so I made up the drawings, worked out the design on the computer (which included buying a add-on for one of the programs I use so I could make a particular facet of the design) and sent the details explaining that the main section needed to be 50% smaller to accommodate the most recent changes (the had a very specific footprint for the work), they came back and said no, I want the changes I asked for and the main section to be the size I want. I just went back and said "no we are done" and that was that. After that I was just so relaxed, it was a weight lifted and one thing I learnt is that I can say no to clients. I also had a particular super-cheap client who asked for £500 worth of work for $100, they went away very quickly after that.
OMG this spoke to me sooo much. Just handed over a job that I have been talking to the client about for 4 months. The day came for hand over and the clients response was......."I didn't think that it would look like that." Thanks Adam made me LOL.
I am a Computer Database consultant and Adam's statement "You have to get to what the client's actual problem is that he is trying to solve!" That is SOOOO true about tech consulting as much as for makers! Great point Adam!
I must say, I am an independent contractor and have ran my own IT business for 5 years. For the better part of the last 3 years I've been involved on a project with a company that I have time after time evaluated and analyzed, only to clarify each and every time that the company I'm working with is ill-equipped to handle this level of project. As with most things, you're blind until its over, and then the hindsight is 20/20. This video has dropped a series of unbelievably close to home insights & wisdom nuggets that I could never have anticipated. This is truly fantastic advice, and utter gospel for anyone that is any variety of independent contractor, freelancer, or otherwise service provider. "How they are in the beginning is how they will be all the way through". Man. Top notch. Thank you, Adam!
As a violin maker, talking to clients about sound is the most difficult thing to do. Most of the time it really has to do with an instrument’s feel and reaction to input, not the tonal product. Sometimes the best thing to do is tell a person they need a change, then let them process through that, even if they came in wanting a change. Sounds crazy, because it is!
WOW... this just came in sooo in time! I'm precisely in the stage of a bid for a big project, and I was just making me these kind of questions... These advises came just in time. THANK YOU.
@@michaelfaraday4243 Hahaha... Dream-Phography... The word doesn't exist but comes from Pho(Photo - Light) and Graphy from graphos (Painting Drawing)... I could have named as Dream PHOTOgraphy... But I just took away the "TO"... Dreamphography is: "Painting" with light my dreams.
"Knowing what your client wants is the key to Knowing when the job is done" these are words to remember and I will definitely be putting them into practice on the next job.
As a previous business owner I appreciate your words and advice Adam. So true are the scenarios that you spoke of. Dealing with the public can be a nightmare. But you have to learn what to look out for in people. I’ve been burned a few times by not getting paid for services rendered…..having nothing to do with my workmanship or delivering things on time on my behalf. There is just always going to be a percentage of customers that will stick it to you no matter how much you do for them. It can be tough, especially just starting a business and your cash poor and depending upon every dollar that comes into your business. Sorry to hear about your past troubles Adam but you made it through all of it and lived on to share your wisdom. Much love snd respect my friend 👍🙂
8:00 a similar thing happens in real estate when someone will look at a house and say well I love the house but I don't like the couch. Well great because it's my couch and it's coming with me when I leave so don't worry about it. Or they won't want to buy it because of the paint color or the appliances or the railings, things that can very easily and usually very cheaply be replaced.
As a software engineer/architect... everything thing you’ve said about your sort of professional making applies equally to mine. I’d assume it applies to all creative careers. Clients often do not know what they want and expect miracles.
Thank you. In my shop when this video pops up. Arguing with myself about a potential client. Who got me in for one job. Changed which property it was going in (fitted solid oak cabinetry!!) Then which room it's going in. While I'm measuring up. And I'm thinking this guy can afford this. But is he gonna want to pay for it. Clearly doesn't value my time. So thank you. Just the reminder I needed, when I needed it.
So much of what you say is so relevant to life, Adam. I started watching because of Mythbusters. I keep watching for the life lessons. Your videos genuinely help me with perspective on life.
Adam these are very wise words indeed about clients and expectations that I have ever heard! I deal with these things daily as a broadcast engineer at a network TV facility, not even about making, but repairing, designing, and implementing systems and projects!
Yep. I’m a musician of many years. NOBODY WHO IS NOT DIRECTLY INVOLVED WITH THE PROJECT GETS TO HEAR IT TILL IT’S COMPLETE. I’ve had my version of the primer story too many times. The words rough mix and demo just seem to go over many peoples head.
omg as someone at a creative agency. Everything Adam said about interfacing with the client is so freaking true. I can think of specific examples of all the crazy things Adam is saying clients will do. I swear working with clients is an art form in and of itself. My respect (and thoughts) go out to anyone in a client-facing role.
Identifying a difficult customer and making them go away is a vital skill. I once worked for a short time with company that never wanted to loose any bid and never turn any customer away, it did not end well.
Such pearls of wisdom that can be applied to many industries. Dealing with that now and impossible long term clients. Nice to feel we are not alone in this.
Wow! I am literally currently going through this with a client RIGHT NOW!! Doing revisions is one thing, but they are asking for a completely new photo edit, and they're saying insulting things like "it's just a minor edit", or that "it's easy". That is so insulting! If it's so easy, do it yourself!
6:10 is so true, for any kind of job really. as an engineer I can attest that a client's solution is rarely the right solution, you have to figure out the problem for yourself , be diligent))
This is such a great video, everyone that works for themselves should watch this, building trades, art, IT. I love the behind the scenes mythbuster stuff, but man getting this kind of advice from someone this articulate with that much experience is priceless!
Such great insights here! As you described the clients in your examples, I had lots of folks I've dealt with run through my mind. It's so true: they don't know what you do, and you must keep that in mind and get on with the job. (But a few of them really are kind of stupid; that's just undeniable. No judgment; just a fact).
While I'm not a physical maker, I'm a digital maker - and wow... these principles are truly universal. I find myself resonating with what Adam said to my core, and his insights and wisdom are something that I'll take with me moving forward forever. Thank you for sharing!!
As a software engineer, I can relate to this. A lot. Making a system that does everything they needed in the background with very little performance drain. Then them being disappointed and leaving a negative review because it didn't look like it was doing anything. So I made it open windows and completely stop someone from being able to interact with the machine. While running. They were much happier. Still aggravates me to this day.
Thank You, Sir! So true! Every freelancer regardless of his specific job has to face issues like that. When it comes to bitting: be sure to know ALL of Your costs. If there´s no profit it´s a hobby not a job. If a client tries to push the price down by arguing "But this might be a long term cooperation. Let's start low first. " then - RUN! On the other hand, if You deal with customers who are real pros and work correctly there will be no problem at all when asking them for an advance. And hell, yes, when talking to a new client feels very difficult or somehow strange and awkward right from the start, LET IT BE! Look for other clients! It´s just not worth it. Thanks for the video! Keep going! Keep building!
Adam, you're advice on communication between the maker and client is excellent! So many people can learn from this, and it can be applied to almost any situation. Thank you so much for your work and sharing your experiences with the fans. :D
Oh, Lord, so much YES! to everything in this video! I've experienced all of this - as a builder, designer and now as a marketer; these points are so universal to doing business. You're always trying to parse what the customer is asking to find out what it is that they actually want or need, and then, during the process of making & delivering it, you're navigating their lack of understanding while still respecting that they're the client; they're paying for this and they have to be satisfied... I only have one ting to add, and it's this: The "how they act in the beginning" goes the positive way, too. I had this guy, a really nice customer, who suddenly didn't pay me, and I was out thousands for months - but I knew he was a nice guy, an believed him when he said he would pay me as soon as he could, so while I kept reminding him (eventually almost every day), I also kept it cordial, and sure enough, he finally not only did pay me, he also added 10% of his own accord to compensate me for the delay. Pretty sure he wouldn't have done that if I'd been yelling at him.
We call it “client sophistication “, and we test them for 1) do they understand the creative process 2) historically how do they respond to change requests 3) do they make changes beyond 60% design stage using words like “tweak” 4) do they listen, do they actually review the design as it’s progressed.
Love your honesty, and your real.. Always nice to see people who talk your mind, non scripted, and just real. I loved you when you where on TV. But seems I like you more here! Thanks Buddy!
IT guy here. Mostly consultant for large enterprises and government, but I also do bespoke online environments. And your story rings so true, especially about the gray primer (I don't like the color) and such. It is so hard to explain on their level. Great video sir!
I'm a media professional and I recognise every last bit of this advice. As Adam said: most of the time, they don't know what they want. They THINK they know, but they don't. I always try to find out what the goal of the client is and then try to figure what they need. I have referred clients to competitors/colleagues 'cause they needed something other than I could offer. I don't get the gig, but I also don't get the nightmare project. Plus I now have time to do other projects that I actually want to do.
Client education is a huge part of any technical field. The customer usually thinks they know what they want, but rarely do they actually do. The trick is to get them to tell you what they want the end result to be, and trust you to deliver something that actually does what they need. I have had so many situations where i was asked to do a thing, only to find out after i had done the thing, that what they wanted was something else. Like Adam said, the trick is to find out what problem they want to solve, or what the end thing needs to do. If you can educate them at the same time, mores the better. This is important for many reasons, but the first is to make your life easier if you have to deal with them in the future. But also important, is that this shows the customer than not only do you know what you are doing, but that you actually care that what they end up with is what they really wanted all along. This is how you build a good relationship with a customer, which can definitely lead to a long term business relationship. Provide good customer service, you can get a customer for life. And good customer service is rarely giving them what they ask for, it's giving them what they need.
It's funny how the bad clients are the ones who stick in our minds. This gave me some real flashbacks. I enjoyed your comments about finding a common vocabulary between maker & client. I feel like that's an under-examined part of the creative/collaborative process in many fields.
So much of this is very familiar to me as an actuarial consultant. Clients almost never ask the question they actually need answering. It's your job as a consultant to understand the problem they are trying to solve and determine for yourself what question you need to answer. Knowing what questions to ask is expert knowledge and they aren't experts. It is also vital to recognise the difference between not understanding something and misunderstanding something. The client will say they don't understand one thing when actually the problem is that they have misunderstood something else and you have to figure that out rather than just explain the thing they are asking you to explain.
3:10 There’s another lesson…cheques (checks) can be stopped! NEVER proceed until the funds have cleared into your account. Now, as it happens, I have been on the other end of this as a client who could not get a newly arising room designer to do what I wanted. She was spraying rough cut ply decor accents with a rattle can and calling it good…I questioned the results and she took off in a strop with connotations suggesting I was being difficult to avoid full payment, but honestly her work was cheap…and looked it.
This advice translates to pretty much any job where you're providing service to a customer from the standpoint of a relative expert. Customers don't get easier to work with, they get more difficult. Every question they as if from a place of ignorance, and more often than not as the one with the specialized knowledge of whatever industry it is, you are the one who has to meet them on their turf of understanding and present things in a way that not only sates their curiosity and needs, but also in a way that clarifies their expectations.
EVERY freelancer needs to watch this first! I learned all this the hard way, but it would have been so useful when I began! I run a studio with 20+ designers and collaborate with some of the top brands, and deal with all this DAILY!
In setting client expectations this is where a detail Scope of Work and a 3D modeling/rendering come into play. The stat is something like 80% of people can't visualize a finished product, as a maker of anything if doing a rendering applies to you it's an invaluable tool to use, and it also sets very clear expectations on what the finished product will look like so there's no "well I thought it would look different" comments when it's finished.
when it comes to money, I am always uncomfortable when A client makes me ask for payment when the agreed project is done. Even worse if Its a friend Im doing work for. But when Someone does something for me they never have to come ask me. When I look at it I have the payment in my hand already. Also Im cursed with putting out the same quality of workmanship on a $100 job as The quality of work on a $2,000. job. If it has my name attached to it, I cant walk away from something Im not happy with.
8:00 I took a deep breath to calm myself. Typing up a rough draft of a proposal we were going to submit as a group project to the professor, and my teammate's first response was about how it wasn't properly formatted.
I used to work for a value added packaging company. We would do 3D prints of the packaging and paint it to look like a final product because clients had trouble envisioning the final product from renderings. For those wondering what value added packaging is. It when the package for the product is identified with the brand-specific product itself. For example think of a Tide detergent bottle. You know what it looks like and can find it at the store without reading any labels.
My goto line is "I'm bringing the first prototype/mockup over. It's ugly and the wrong color but it will let YOU know that we are going in the right direction."
this also applies to managers in work !! they haven't got a clue when your making something to how long it takes or what's involved to finish a product ....
Thank you so much for sharing these wise words - honestly I wondered if these things I experience are shared experiences, and what to do about it. I can't express my thanks enough for all of the guidance!
I am only in the loosest sense a maker, but I am professionally a digital consultant, and that comment about "I don't like the color" resonates in my soul
I feel for you, Adam it has happened to me rarely, but it has. I had always done everything with verbal agreement and one of the last jobs I did involving a set, props, costuming acting, I did not get a written contract. And when I didn’t get paid and it went on for a year, I finally took the guy to small claims court and won. However, the judge did not award me the full amount of money to reimburse me because he said I did not have a written contract so I learned that lesson definitely get one because if you end up needing to go to court later, even if it is years later, that can cost you.
8:26 So true. When I did web development freelance, I can not tell you how many clients got hung up on the "lorem ipsum" filler text. It's in there because: 1) As the designer/developer, I need content (which the client has yet to provide) to fill up the space. And 2) So that when you're showing them the design in-progress, they don't get hung up proof-reading whatever text is on the screen. Trying to get a client to focus on generalities versus details is *infuriating*. When I was an intern doing CAD at a construction firm, we went in for the initial design for an office building, and the first words out of the client's mouth were "I think I'd like oak trim in the kitchenette." OK, so you'd like a kitchenette; how many people need to work in the building, how big is the site, how many offices do you need, storage, conference areas, etc.? I've watched so many clients over-pay a competitor and end up with something they didn't want/couldn't use because of some superfluous visual detail during the initial bid.
Teaching physics and math is similar. 85% of the work is figuring out what the student does not understand when trying to communicate their stuck point. As for free lance work, my mother taught me something verry valuable. When you are starting out, figure out what you reasonably think it will cost, then double everything, time cost, materials, shipping, ancillaries etc. When you get verry good at that thing, give it your best estimate and multiply it by 1.3. I have found this to be a solid rule of thumb over the years. It also applies to travel, helping people or even getting across town.
Oh my gosh. I do 3d printing for people and Adam hit the nail on the head when he talked about that primed model. I sell my prints as-printed (so in black, white, gray, and various filament colors) and so many times I've heard "....why is it blue/gray/orange/black/white?" He's 100% correct, you have to temper expectations when someone simply isn't aware of the process.
I can't count the number of times I've shown software and said this is just to get an idea of the functionality, don't worry about fonts and colours for right now. The first thing they say is I don't like the colours. It's always about trying to find out what the solution to their problem is, not the solution they think they need.
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I need to have a 10" model of Stonehenge built - for the stage! LOL!!!
Is that an IWC Jamie's wearing? First time I can recall him not wearing his Omega PO.
I have a serious question for Adam. Have you already did a MythBusters about reverse engineering a washing machine to become a generator???
A generator that in theory can allegedly power a home.
Can you do a review on this PLEASEEEEEE?????!!!!!!
Thank you Sir. (here it is)
m.th-cam.com/video/0ieFZI4-6K8/w-d-xo.html
I had lunch with a US District court judge to discuss attorneys... he went on to say that keeping clients apprised of how the case is going is the largest complaint.
He said that lawyers whom provided at best questionable legal advice, the cases were not going well, however they kept their clients in the information loop (good bad or indifferent) had fewer complaints than those providing great legal service, advancing their client's interests, and many times ultimately winning the cases, but failing to keep the clients informed.
Great talk Adam. You need to mention mechanic's liens. I once got stiffed on a house painting job and filed a lien. 40 (yup, 40) years later the lady died, and her kids tried to sell the house. No go thanks to my lien. I got paid, plus interest, for nine times the original debt. I did need to refile every 7 years, but the annoyance was worth it. Something to think about...
I feel bad that you didn't get to see the woman's face when the family found out.
Ah, the taste of cold revenge!
You refiled 5 times. Probably wasn't financially worth it.
@@MushookieManit’s like $30 x5 150 , cost to paint a house if it’s the whole house 5k plus interest over 40 years , I’d say more than worth it lol
People who pay very little or don't pay at all feel like they are "CLEVER" that's how they live with them selves.
Wow .... That never occurred to me... Spot on.
Yea I feel like that’s across the board with businesses. People who like to “get over” on people with unnecessary/over charges etc. think of themselves as good business men. I call it being a crappy person personally.
Oh I've been there, one customer of mine (I work for a lawn care company) wanted his son's yard (40,000+ ft²) treated for the price of his yard(16,000 ft²) and kept talking me down, talking me down, till I just said "I've gotta talk to my boss" and of course my boss said no. So I just bumped his estimate price up a bit. And his whole justification for it, he said, was you're getting 2 yds out here. Yeah, sure, at a heavy discount🙄 And we wouldn't be making any money on it. And for all that effort, it would take me over an hour to do it, pushing a heavy spreader, full of fertilizer, usually in hot weather and they're both on hillsides as well. Did I mention they're huge yards?
And somehow I doubt HIS yard was actually 16,000 ft² because it looks a lot bigger. I'm sure he talked the other technician who initially measured his yard, into lowering his estimate to that. And would you believe it, he was a contractor, go figure.
I remember watching the commentary for Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow and the director was SO PLEASED with himself, puffed up with pride, that the movie looked so good and was so low budget.
"to think, we accomplished this with only 200k" (or whatever I don't remember the details.)
That's when somebody else reminded him "well... the only reason that was possible is because the artists donated so muxh of their time and essentially worked for free because they believed in the vision"
and you could hear him take that in and deflate a little bit. He really wanted all that credit and was just then realizing he was surrounded by amazing people
Why I will never respect Donald j Trump he thinks he's so clever he brags about stiffing so many tradesmen craftsman construction crews
My first red flag for identifying a problem client is the one that starts out by telling me how easy my job is and how simple this project will be. When that happens, my price doubles before the first price quote is given.
Just tell them "If it's that simple, then do it yourself."
Heh, good tip! Don't let anyone tell you your process or what your time is worth.
totally agree
Yes, they are trying to lessen your worth so not only you lower your price but they also won't appreciate anything you do.
@@shawbros I do. Every time.
“How they are in the beginning is how they’re gonna be all the way through” is truly some of the best business advice I’ve ever heard. This applies to EVERYTHING, even getting a job at Walmart.
I had a client stiff me around $2500 and a year or so later I ran into him at the grocery store where he acted like we were old friends. When I reminded him he never paid me, he literally ran away from me across the parking lot, got in his car and drove away! 😳🙄
He probably scams so many people, he forgot he did it to you.
@@aaronboor2818 😂Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised. He's why I never deliver anything without 1/2 up front, and in full when finished.
As a professional maker (woodworker) this is my therapy. Hearing someone who is as successful as Adam describe going through the same bad situations I’m currently going through helps me so much.
That "figure out what the client really wants, not what they're telling you they want" thing is really important... And not just in model building.
I have done consulting work as a data analyst in academia, and early on if someone asked how to run a particular analysis, I'd help them run that analysis. Maybe 10% of the time it would turn out the analysis they asked for was actually what they wanted. The rest of the time, whether they were a PhD, MD, grad student, whoever... they'd get the result and then ask "what does that imply about XYZ?" Usually nothing. We need to do a different analysis for that.
Now we save everyone so much time (money) by setting aside the initial request and asking tons of questions before we get started.
This! Absolutely this. I've been consulting for two decades and I gotta tell ya, the job became so much easier--and my reputation got so much better--once I learned to stop giving clients what they asked for and started giving them what they really needed. I kick myself for how long it took to learn the lesson, because when my dad ran his hardware store he never asked people what parts or tools they were looking for, but rather what they were trying to fix or trying to build. Knowing the desired outcome is infinitely more important than understanding the initial request!
I came up with a mantra at my first job, “Give them what they want, not what they ask for.”
I've told clients: "You can tell me what you would like me to do, or what you would like to accomplish; not both." The ones that take offense at that are the ones who want to micromanage and think they know better than the experts they are hiring to do a job.
@ERNesbitt I've said basically the same thing too many times to count. I've also gotten to the point where I've flat out told people if you knew how to do this better than I do (or at all) I wouldn't be here. That either sorts out the relationship or breaks it and I'm usually fine either way haha
Exactly what they asked for, but not what they need. OMG how many times this has come up.
Yes, recognizing your client/customer/business partner does not really understand the question they are asking is key to finding exactly what they want.
Oftentimes that is a matter of trying to educate your opposite to be able to understand the question they want to ask, but don't know how.
When I was in high school our school offered a work experience program where the school would hire out students in specific trade classes for small jobs. Student would both get paid (albeit, well under market rates) and have some resume fodder.
Through this a nearby small town hired me to design their website. I did it, they were kind of a nightmare client, complaining about stuff like my placeholder images when they kept delaying giving me the actual images they wanted for the finished site, telling me to use a different font while not responding to my emails with different previews, etc.
Anyway, I finally get it completed and the client says they are satisfied, and my teacher tells me to hold back on giving the actual files to them, something is wrong. Well turns out they hadn't paid the school yet, and my teacher suspected that they intended to stiff me on the payment once I handed over the finished site. Seems like my teacher was right, when the school told them that the website would be delivered as soon as payment was confirmed, the town staff member we had been talking to totally ghosted us. We never heard back from them again.
stiffing an high school student is extremely sad
@@SkribbleNL And extremely common. Young people are vicitimised frequently. Most of us have at least one story. (I've got mine.)
Good on your teacher!
Related to clients not liking the color of primer-gray models: In software development we use UI mockup tools that are intentionally designed to make the interface look like an ugly sketch, because any time a client sees a pretty mockup, they think the software is done. Equally frustrating is any time a client starts a sentence with "It shouldn't be that hard to..." It's always followed by something that's either difficult, impossible, or just plain doesn't make sense.
When I was being taught prototypying, the professor specifically told us you'll have a better experience starting with hand drawn paper prototypes then jumping straight to digital wireframes.
@@AxGryndr Still true today. Sketches on paper, whiteboards or the like are so much cheaper, faster and more flexible than anything involving tooling when you're figuring out what needs to be done. If you can do this in little workshops with the client, even better.
@ Andy: _"It shouldn't be that hard to..."_
It must be difficult to resist the urge to say "Well then do it your f**king self!" 😁
@@Milesco The more business friendly way to respond to that is to say "what makes you say that?" It either leads to a deeper understanding of what they want, or it exposes how little they actually know.
@@Milesco More than once, I have found that I could not resist.
I've been stiffed on a job before and the client was a nightmare to deal with afterwards. What they didn't expect what how much of a pain in the ass I was going to be
BRAVO, BRAVO ;)
I've been there, but there's also a point at which you don't want the Sunk Cost fallacy to come into play where you spend more time/money/resources chasing after bad money. That's a very hard lesson to have to learn, because you're even poorer for trying to get what you deserve.
I get SO happy when Adam does the Hyneman voice!
now i wonder how Jamie's impression of Adam is.
Same, but I miss him using his hands to imitate Jamie's facial hair. :D
The first time a client flat-out refused to pay me, I got so anxious I vomited on the drive home.
Funny thing, I had a 'gut feeling' about the guy for the three months we worked on the project.
Trust those feelings if they don't fade over time!
Human evolution installed 'creepy-vibes' to keep us out of subtle danger.
I cannot understand these people. They are so proud of themselves for saving money but they don't realize while it's just one thing they got for free, it hours of work you could've been spending on something else. Literally working a minimum wage job for those hours would've netted you more money. How do they think that is fair.
Those "Spidey senses are tingling". Yyyyep. I was developing a picture of my first client and with 20/20...shoulda just walked away with my efforts.
I interviewed for a crew position with a captain who reminded me of a contractor I'd worked with once, who went nuts on me and started blaming me for all his mistakes before firing me. Had the same affect, attitude, frustrated sighs, everything. As it turned out, the captain was just as hellish of a boss, but for completely different reasons: alcoholism, and either narcissism or BPD or something like that. The one thing they both had was an unhealthy obsession with every detail of their optics in front of the client, even at the expense of the actual job. I should have got up from that interview and excused myself. Instead, I spent a hellish summer with an insane alcoholic captain, and never got a sea service letter.
when i worked in a vw restoration shop we required1/3 down. 1/3 in progress and 1/3 at completion with additional charges when the customer changed his mind about a certain portion of the job, i.e. changed the paint color or optional accessories.
he didn't get the keys until the final check was in hand.
not a perfect solution but it helped.
unfortunately the shop owner backslid into his cocaine habit and everything went south for everyone. he cheated me out of two weeks pay.
@@Vinemaple The best con is the guy who waits till the pay is due and then walks through your job saying you did this wrong, this took too long, this is below your pay grade, you made someone mad when you did this, and that's why I'm not going to pay you. And like you said, nine times out of ten the things he's suddenly complaining about (not a word during the job, naturally) are all failings of his that you had to grit your teeth through, doing the best job you could with not enough information, materials, training, experience, whatever. That guy made me a union man.
Wow, this really hits home. I am so glad I am retired from my field! Client management is the worst part of being an independent contractor/maker.
I've worked B2B and B2C and I'd say B2B is much less frequently a problem.
I think it's true in pretty much all businesses. Some clients just aren't worth trying to do business with because they have unrealistic expections. Or the expectation isn't one where the work is mutually beneficial. So you can end up spending a lot of money on the bid, clarifcations, revisions, and then get to BAFO (Best And Final Offer) and still expect you to drop your prices. I think the expectation is that if you're in the hole for so much already, you may as well dig deeper. You get to know those customers pretty fast, and they eventually discover nobody responds to their bids, or quote requests.
I think it also must be harder in the creative world because like Adam said, the language is different. I might have a vision in my mind of what I want, but struggle with communicating that. I guess it's also true with defining things like quality.
Freelance CAD, 3d printer and machinist here. I have been stiffed on jobs before, and it is almost always the biggest people who can easily afford the thing that they agreed to pay for.
As an ex-waiter/bartender, rich people are the worst tippers, it is just the one in two hundred that does tip, tips CRAZY because they used to be a bartender and know how much it matters. Working class guys, even the guys that look like they might be homeless, ALWAYS tip.
Worked for an established landscape company that won a few states, regional and national awards for our projects.
I was shocked to learn about one of these award winning properties being owned by a couple who refused to pay their bills on time (for later projects)
They don't get that way spending their own money...folks in comfort are always looking to scrape, finagle, haggle, lowball, complain, sometimes cheat or lie , or just about break their own neck to save literally $5 even if they have all the financial success they'd ever need for one person.
Yeah, it's spiritually fatiguing to say the least. If you ask them, they'd call it
"shrewd business practice".
I call it being a sh!tty human being.
Worked as a stenographer for a while, mostly doing depositions. Lawyers are the *worst* clients. I've never had one actually stiff me, but they almost always delay as far as they can: Either paying on literally the last day they can before late fees start to accrue, or not paying until I send them a certified letter saying I'm going to sue them if they don't pay up.
As a software dev, this all applies so well.
Absolutely, when he said the clients are attempting to solve a problem and you have to figure out what that problem is, THAT is the job. You don't give them what they ask for, you give them (and help them understand) what they need.
@@DarcyCowan and sometimes you give them what they need and tell them it's what they asked for because they're too arrogant and think they know how to do what you do better than you do. I'm confident this happens in Adam's field too.
@@ZiggyTheHamster and then they tell you that you have to hand over the source code (for free) as the whole thing is their intellectual property because they did all the thinking and you just did the coding...
lol I was just going to write the same thing. I'm not a freelancer, but I work for a small web dev shop that has many clients, and pretty much all of our clients have to be managed the way Adam describes. It's taxing.
as any freelancer tbh, im a music producer and i find this weirdly applicable
I am thankfully retired after 25+ years in residential construction and customer service. So much of what you talked about applies to so many of my homeowners. Thank GOD I don’t have to deal with the public anymore…they will suck the life force out of you and demand more.
I've been a Freelance Illustrator for over 10 years. All of this is SO TRUE! 😱 Client interaction tells so much on how a project will go.
I think every illustrator watching this video was quietly nodding their heads in unison.
Just popped, over to you page, from here, you do great work, going to subscribe, and hope for some updates, and more post. 🙂
It's an unfortunate fact that the most artistic and technical people are the worst at business.
I've found that the smaller production companies are often the easiest to deal with, since they understand budgeting and reality. The bigger ones are notorious for asking for a price for a specific prop or controller and then demanding more and more features, expecting it for the same cost. Each change they demand involves hours or days of more work, sometimes starting from scratch.
I want at least another half hour of this!!
This "managing client expectations" is so accurate. As a Freelance photographer and filmmaker, I have to deal with this all the time. Thanks, Adam for all your insights and stories.
I've been a (mostly) freelance creative my entire career. Thank you so much for addressing these issues. I've been in this racket for a long time, and some of the lessons you mention were hard learned after years of frustration on my end. I truly believe that following your gut is also super important. If you're getting a bad vibe from a prospective client, walk away. I learned that lesson a few times. There's always a bad mojo around people like that, you need to sniff it out. Believe me, losing some $$$ walking away from a sketchy gig pays dividends for your mental and physical well-being. As far as being stiffed goes, I've had clients try to dodge my invoices, but that's when I sic my wife on them. She's a tenacious honey badger when it comes to collecting. Relentless. God how I love her.
Really good advice. I work in data analytics and modeling and face a lot of the same communication issues with customers. We always have to remember that they're the ones who know what they want but can't always articulate those needs, and we're the ones who can make (almost) literally whatever they ask for. It's up to us to figure out how to translate their "wants" into a product that works for them, even when (especially when) it's not quite what we'd do ourselves. Over time the communication and relationship often improves to a very efficient and satisfying one.
I had a client that I was installing custom plaster mouldings for in their home and this job was going to take the better part of 3 months to finish. Within the first month I saw him berate, belittle, and scream at other trades as well as short pay me on 2 invoices with the promise of more on the back end. With red flags everywhere, I decided to walk knowing my 3rd invoice was probably not going to get paid. Another installer took over my job and got ripped off almost 10 grand, I warned him what he was getting into.
In the end I lost a few thousand, but it was educational, and I better know how to spot scammers and stay away.
I've been there, the warning sirens were screaming and this time I listened. Cost me $3k, saved about $30k! Don't ignore your intuition.
This is hands down SOME OF THE BEST PROFESSIONAL ADVICE I have ever heard. I went down so much of this rabbit hole with my first real photography client. I asked the questions that I thought would make it clear what they wanted. I was 1000% wrong… simply because they didn’t understand the ‘language’ I was speaking from a technical standpoint. Wound up getting paid but never hired again.
Working in Aerospace, theatre, and as a ghostwriter, the constant is that clients often don’t know what they want, they’re hoping I know.
Adam what you are saying applies to pretty much any customer service industry. For example, i am an hvac technician and have been for over 20 years. At this point i manage a large campus for a multinational prominent bank. You would think that the facilities maintenance company would hire knowledgeable staff however i am constantly interpreting and sometimes interviewing them to find out what exactly it is there looking for so i can provide that.
Honestly even most customers are like that, ten minutes with the customer can save hours of time!
All good advice… I’m an architect, own and operate my own small practice (over 15 years). Jamie’s advise on difficult clients is spot on. Listening and problem solving is an Art! Communication is key and developing the skill of saying no without actually saying “no” is very valuable.
I'm a builder...I've never been "stiffed." Get a contract signed, get partial payment upfront (maybe even 50%), maybe even do a credit check on the customer if possible. Most importantly, always be willing to walk away from a job if they are difficult or flaky in the bidding process. The best advice I ever received was from my uncle when he said -"Sometimes the best deals you make are the ones you walked away from."
Excellent advice Adam, (and Jamie!) Over the years, I've learned to spot these folks a mile away. Many times I have refused to bid work after one consultation. Too many people look at makers+fixers as a lower class of people. Like because we are in YOUR headspace we need to be led around by the nose, treated as a child with the wrong crayon.
Keep strong everyone, and remeber this: A customers ignorance is not a good reason to capitulate. Your time is valuble.
As a maker of web sites, I run into the same thing about color when something is just a mock-up for layout and/or functionality. This is why black and white wireframes and flowcharts on paper can *sometimes* be better than a prototype. It is maddening to get feedback on color and fonts and photos despite saying, "This is not the color/font/photo..." every time.
Unfortunately, we all learn this the hard way.
I would still advise you to patiently talk the client through the colors/fonts/whatevers that you are going to use. For one they are not trained to imagine all of this without your help. For another there are enough shoddy web "designers" out there who will proceed to deliver an even uglier color, hideous fonts and bad pictures in an inadequate layout. Besides: what your client is imagining and what you think he's imagining are two completely different things.
Clients don't want to sit there silently while you work - they want to give input, it's human nature. A lot of folks are just at a point where the only thing they understand about a website is what they can see - ie, fonts, color styles, pictures, so they'll treat that as highest priority. I've found patience is definitely key in my experience for a good client-dev relationship.
I got stiffed on a job for some pretty elaborate cosplay stuff (not cheap work either).
Almost 2 years later; my friend and I spotted the dude at a con, and we may or may not have found out what room he was staying in, and stole everything I made for him and threw it away.
A-legend-ly.
Sounds wasteful.
Shouldve tried to re-sell it tbh!
@@maskmoth Would *you* wear something that can't be washed that some git has been sweating in after they effectively stole it?
@Vamptonius I thought it might've been cosplay props 🤷 the og comment doesnt specify. But if it was an unwashable piece of clothing, probably not.
Loved your wrap up comments about communicating with the client. It is so important to get to a place where you and the customer are talking about the same thing
It's true, super important! Part of the job is actually figuring out what the real problem is and solving it!
Such good advice. I teach HS engineering and I’ve always got people coming by.
Just the other day I had someone come in my shop asking for a 3’x4’ complex model. After we talked for awhile he looked my bank of ender 5s and said “Can’t you just 3D print it all? That’s really what I want.”
@5:40 My wife said something similar to me about a month back, I'd been working with a client on a project for about 6 months. Every time I`d produce drawings, measurements etc they would change the design. I`d go back re-design send drawing etc and it got to a point that they asked for a particular change that would mean shrinking the main section of the design by 50%. Now I thought their idea was actually great, a little complicated but it would have been the best version. I was excited to get this done, so I made up the drawings, worked out the design on the computer (which included buying a add-on for one of the programs I use so I could make a particular facet of the design) and sent the details explaining that the main section needed to be 50% smaller to accommodate the most recent changes (the had a very specific footprint for the work), they came back and said no, I want the changes I asked for and the main section to be the size I want.
I just went back and said "no we are done" and that was that. After that I was just so relaxed, it was a weight lifted and one thing I learnt is that I can say no to clients.
I also had a particular super-cheap client who asked for £500 worth of work for $100, they went away very quickly after that.
OMG this spoke to me sooo much. Just handed over a job that I have been talking to the client about for 4 months. The day came for hand over and the clients response was......."I didn't think that it would look like that." Thanks Adam made me LOL.
I am a Computer Database consultant and Adam's statement "You have to get to what the client's actual problem is that he is trying to solve!" That is SOOOO true about tech consulting as much as for makers! Great point Adam!
I must say, I am an independent contractor and have ran my own IT business for 5 years. For the better part of the last 3 years I've been involved on a project with a company that I have time after time evaluated and analyzed, only to clarify each and every time that the company I'm working with is ill-equipped to handle this level of project. As with most things, you're blind until its over, and then the hindsight is 20/20. This video has dropped a series of unbelievably close to home insights & wisdom nuggets that I could never have anticipated. This is truly fantastic advice, and utter gospel for anyone that is any variety of independent contractor, freelancer, or otherwise service provider. "How they are in the beginning is how they will be all the way through". Man. Top notch. Thank you, Adam!
I'm a comicbook artist and man, that final comment's spot on: the client doensn't know (but they think they do).
Great work, Adam, keep it up!
As a violin maker, talking to clients about sound is the most difficult thing to do. Most of the time it really has to do with an instrument’s feel and reaction to input, not the tonal product. Sometimes the best thing to do is tell a person they need a change, then let them process through that, even if they came in wanting a change. Sounds crazy, because it is!
Your clients must be on the fiddle...
WOW... this just came in sooo in time! I'm precisely in the stage of a bid for a big project, and I was just making me these kind of questions... These advises came just in time. THANK YOU.
Serious question... What is phography?
@@michaelfaraday4243 Hahaha... Dream-Phography... The word doesn't exist but comes from Pho(Photo - Light) and Graphy from graphos (Painting Drawing)... I could have named as Dream PHOTOgraphy... But I just took away the "TO"... Dreamphography is: "Painting" with light my dreams.
Wow, your work is really impressive.
@@chris-hayes Thank you Chris!!!!
@@Dreamphography Wow, you do some beautiful work.
"Knowing what your client wants is the key to Knowing when the job is done" these are words to remember and I will definitely be putting them into practice on the next job.
As a previous business owner I appreciate your words and advice Adam. So true are the scenarios that you spoke of. Dealing with the public can be a nightmare. But you have to learn what to look out for in people. I’ve been burned a few times by not getting paid for services rendered…..having nothing to do with my workmanship or delivering things on time on my behalf. There is just always going to be a percentage of customers that will stick it to you no matter how much you do for them. It can be tough, especially just starting a business and your cash poor and depending upon every dollar that comes into your business. Sorry to hear about your past troubles Adam but you made it through all of it and lived on to share your wisdom. Much love snd respect my friend 👍🙂
Thank you, 20+ years of bidding jobs and I still leaned a lot from this. Really, thank you.
8:00 a similar thing happens in real estate when someone will look at a house and say well I love the house but I don't like the couch. Well great because it's my couch and it's coming with me when I leave so don't worry about it. Or they won't want to buy it because of the paint color or the appliances or the railings, things that can very easily and usually very cheaply be replaced.
As a software engineer/architect... everything thing you’ve said about your sort of professional making applies equally to mine. I’d assume it applies to all creative careers. Clients often do not know what they want and expect miracles.
Thank you. In my shop when this video pops up. Arguing with myself about a potential client. Who got me in for one job. Changed which property it was going in (fitted solid oak cabinetry!!) Then which room it's going in. While I'm measuring up. And I'm thinking this guy can afford this. But is he gonna want to pay for it. Clearly doesn't value my time. So thank you. Just the reminder I needed, when I needed it.
So much of what you say is so relevant to life, Adam. I started watching because of Mythbusters. I keep watching for the life lessons. Your videos genuinely help me with perspective on life.
Adam these are very wise words indeed about clients and expectations that I have ever heard! I deal with these things daily as a broadcast engineer at a network TV facility, not even about making, but repairing, designing, and implementing systems and projects!
Yep. I’m a musician of many years. NOBODY WHO IS NOT DIRECTLY INVOLVED WITH THE PROJECT GETS TO HEAR IT TILL IT’S COMPLETE. I’ve had my version of the primer story too many times. The words rough mix and demo just seem to go over many peoples head.
omg as someone at a creative agency. Everything Adam said about interfacing with the client is so freaking true. I can think of specific examples of all the crazy things Adam is saying clients will do. I swear working with clients is an art form in and of itself. My respect (and thoughts) go out to anyone in a client-facing role.
Identifying a difficult customer and making them go away is a vital skill. I once worked for a short time with company that never wanted to loose any bid and never turn any customer away, it did not end well.
Such pearls of wisdom that can be applied to many industries. Dealing with that now and impossible long term clients. Nice to feel we are not alone in this.
This is all great advice. Love how you have your own TH-cam channel now this is like GOld !!
Wow! I am literally currently going through this with a client RIGHT NOW!! Doing revisions is one thing, but they are asking for a completely new photo edit, and they're saying insulting things like "it's just a minor edit", or that "it's easy". That is so insulting! If it's so easy, do it yourself!
6:10 is so true, for any kind of job really.
as an engineer I can attest that a client's solution is rarely the right solution, you have to figure out the problem for yourself , be diligent))
This is such a great video, everyone that works for themselves should watch this, building trades, art, IT.
I love the behind the scenes mythbuster stuff, but man getting this kind of advice from someone this articulate with that much experience is priceless!
Such great insights here! As you described the clients in your examples, I had lots of folks I've dealt with run through my mind. It's so true: they don't know what you do, and you must keep that in mind and get on with the job. (But a few of them really are kind of stupid; that's just undeniable. No judgment; just a fact).
While I'm not a physical maker, I'm a digital maker - and wow... these principles are truly universal. I find myself resonating with what Adam said to my core, and his insights and wisdom are something that I'll take with me moving forward forever. Thank you for sharing!!
As a software engineer, I can relate to this. A lot. Making a system that does everything they needed in the background with very little performance drain. Then them being disappointed and leaving a negative review because it didn't look like it was doing anything.
So I made it open windows and completely stop someone from being able to interact with the machine. While running. They were much happier. Still aggravates me to this day.
Thanks!
Thank You, Sir! So true! Every freelancer regardless of his specific job has to face issues like that. When it comes to bitting: be sure to know ALL of Your costs. If there´s no profit it´s a hobby not a job. If a client tries to push the price down by arguing "But this might be a long term cooperation. Let's start low first. " then - RUN! On the other hand, if You deal with customers who are real pros and work correctly there will be no problem at all when asking them for an advance. And hell, yes, when talking to a new client feels very difficult or somehow strange and awkward right from the start, LET IT BE! Look for other clients! It´s just not worth it.
Thanks for the video! Keep going! Keep building!
Adam, you're advice on communication between the maker and client is excellent! So many people can learn from this, and it can be applied to almost any situation. Thank you so much for your work and sharing your experiences with the fans. :D
Oh, Lord, so much YES! to everything in this video! I've experienced all of this - as a builder, designer and now as a marketer; these points are so universal to doing business. You're always trying to parse what the customer is asking to find out what it is that they actually want or need, and then, during the process of making & delivering it, you're navigating their lack of understanding while still respecting that they're the client; they're paying for this and they have to be satisfied...
I only have one ting to add, and it's this: The "how they act in the beginning" goes the positive way, too. I had this guy, a really nice customer, who suddenly didn't pay me, and I was out thousands for months - but I knew he was a nice guy, an believed him when he said he would pay me as soon as he could, so while I kept reminding him (eventually almost every day), I also kept it cordial, and sure enough, he finally not only did pay me, he also added 10% of his own accord to compensate me for the delay. Pretty sure he wouldn't have done that if I'd been yelling at him.
Love you Adam, keep up the great content!!
We call it “client sophistication “, and we test them for 1) do they understand the creative process 2) historically how do they respond to change requests 3) do they make changes beyond 60% design stage using words like “tweak” 4) do they listen, do they actually review the design as it’s progressed.
Love your honesty, and your real.. Always nice to see people who talk your mind, non scripted, and just real. I loved you when you where on TV. But seems I like you more here! Thanks Buddy!
IT guy here. Mostly consultant for large enterprises and government, but I also do bespoke online environments. And your story rings so true, especially about the gray primer (I don't like the color) and such. It is so hard to explain on their level. Great video sir!
I felt all of these things and experienced them. Nice to know I'm not alone! As always, thanks for the words of wisdom.
I have not watched all of your videos but this one is tops for just about any of the vids I have watched. An eye opener for sure
Adam, this is an excellent explanation to the questions asked. Great insight sharing from your experience.
I'm a media professional and I recognise every last bit of this advice. As Adam said: most of the time, they don't know what they want. They THINK they know, but they don't. I always try to find out what the goal of the client is and then try to figure what they need. I have referred clients to competitors/colleagues 'cause they needed something other than I could offer. I don't get the gig, but I also don't get the nightmare project. Plus I now have time to do other projects that I actually want to do.
This applys to technical project management as well. Thanks Adam for those amazing 9 min. Great stuff.
Client education is a huge part of any technical field. The customer usually thinks they know what they want, but rarely do they actually do. The trick is to get them to tell you what they want the end result to be, and trust you to deliver something that actually does what they need. I have had so many situations where i was asked to do a thing, only to find out after i had done the thing, that what they wanted was something else. Like Adam said, the trick is to find out what problem they want to solve, or what the end thing needs to do.
If you can educate them at the same time, mores the better. This is important for many reasons, but the first is to make your life easier if you have to deal with them in the future. But also important, is that this shows the customer than not only do you know what you are doing, but that you actually care that what they end up with is what they really wanted all along. This is how you build a good relationship with a customer, which can definitely lead to a long term business relationship.
Provide good customer service, you can get a customer for life. And good customer service is rarely giving them what they ask for, it's giving them what they need.
Determining the real question is SO IMPORTANT
Adam, what an awesome thing to post, thank you for sharing years of knowledge to help us all!
It's funny how the bad clients are the ones who stick in our minds. This gave me some real flashbacks.
I enjoyed your comments about finding a common vocabulary between maker & client. I feel like that's an under-examined part of the creative/collaborative process in many fields.
So much of this is very familiar to me as an actuarial consultant. Clients almost never ask the question they actually need answering. It's your job as a consultant to understand the problem they are trying to solve and determine for yourself what question you need to answer. Knowing what questions to ask is expert knowledge and they aren't experts.
It is also vital to recognise the difference between not understanding something and misunderstanding something. The client will say they don't understand one thing when actually the problem is that they have misunderstood something else and you have to figure that out rather than just explain the thing they are asking you to explain.
3:10 There’s another lesson…cheques (checks) can be stopped! NEVER proceed until the funds have cleared into your account. Now, as it happens, I have been on the other end of this as a client who could not get a newly arising room designer to do what I wanted. She was spraying rough cut ply decor accents with a rattle can and calling it good…I questioned the results and she took off in a strop with connotations suggesting I was being difficult to avoid full payment, but honestly her work was cheap…and looked it.
This advice translates to pretty much any job where you're providing service to a customer from the standpoint of a relative expert. Customers don't get easier to work with, they get more difficult. Every question they as if from a place of ignorance, and more often than not as the one with the specialized knowledge of whatever industry it is, you are the one who has to meet them on their turf of understanding and present things in a way that not only sates their curiosity and needs, but also in a way that clarifies their expectations.
Excellent summary of the need to be able to read into an interview with a client. I teach Design and I'm going to show my students this.
I love how animated Adam gets when he’s really into telling a story!😄🐕
EVERY freelancer needs to watch this first! I learned all this the hard way, but it would have been so useful when I began! I run a studio with 20+ designers and collaborate with some of the top brands, and deal with all this DAILY!
In setting client expectations this is where a detail Scope of Work and a 3D modeling/rendering come into play. The stat is something like 80% of people can't visualize a finished product, as a maker of anything if doing a rendering applies to you it's an invaluable tool to use, and it also sets very clear expectations on what the finished product will look like so there's no "well I thought it would look different" comments when it's finished.
when it comes to money, I am always uncomfortable when A client makes me ask for payment when the agreed project is done. Even worse if Its a friend Im doing work for. But when Someone does something for me they never have to come ask me. When I look at it I have the payment in my hand already. Also Im cursed with putting out the same quality of workmanship on a $100 job as The quality of work on a $2,000. job. If it has my name attached to it, I cant walk away from something Im not happy with.
8:00
I took a deep breath to calm myself.
Typing up a rough draft of a proposal we were going to submit as a group project to the professor, and my teammate's first response was about how it wasn't properly formatted.
I used to work for a value added packaging company. We would do 3D prints of the packaging and paint it to look like a final product because clients had trouble envisioning the final product from renderings.
For those wondering what value added packaging is. It when the package for the product is identified with the brand-specific product itself. For example think of a Tide detergent bottle. You know what it looks like and can find it at the store without reading any labels.
YES, always figure out what your end user actually wants and don't just do what they are asking. Will save you tons of time.
My goto line is "I'm bringing the first prototype/mockup over. It's ugly and the wrong color but it will let YOU know that we are going in the right direction."
this also applies to managers in work !! they haven't got a clue when your making something to how long it takes or what's involved to finish a product ....
Thank you so much for sharing these wise words - honestly I wondered if these things I experience are shared experiences, and what to do about it. I can't express my thanks enough for all of the guidance!
I am only in the loosest sense a maker, but I am professionally a digital consultant, and that comment about "I don't like the color" resonates in my soul
Thank you, all must LISTEN.
I feel for you, Adam it has happened to me rarely, but it has. I had always done everything with verbal agreement and one of the last jobs I did involving a set, props, costuming acting, I did not get a written contract. And when I didn’t get paid and it went on for a year, I finally took the guy to small claims court and won. However, the judge did not award me the full amount of money to reimburse me because he said I did not have a written contract so I learned that lesson definitely get one because if you end up needing to go to court later, even if it is years later, that can cost you.
8:26 So true. When I did web development freelance, I can not tell you how many clients got hung up on the "lorem ipsum" filler text. It's in there because: 1) As the designer/developer, I need content (which the client has yet to provide) to fill up the space. And 2) So that when you're showing them the design in-progress, they don't get hung up proof-reading whatever text is on the screen. Trying to get a client to focus on generalities versus details is *infuriating*. When I was an intern doing CAD at a construction firm, we went in for the initial design for an office building, and the first words out of the client's mouth were "I think I'd like oak trim in the kitchenette." OK, so you'd like a kitchenette; how many people need to work in the building, how big is the site, how many offices do you need, storage, conference areas, etc.? I've watched so many clients over-pay a competitor and end up with something they didn't want/couldn't use because of some superfluous visual detail during the initial bid.
“This is not a representative sample of me” is THE most Adam Savage line I’ve heard to this day. ❤❤❤
Teaching physics and math is similar. 85% of the work is figuring out what the student does not understand when trying to communicate their stuck point.
As for free lance work, my mother taught me something verry valuable. When you are starting out, figure out what you reasonably think it will cost, then double everything, time cost, materials, shipping, ancillaries etc. When you get verry good at that thing, give it your best estimate and multiply it by 1.3. I have found this to be a solid rule of thumb over the years. It also applies to travel, helping people or even getting across town.
Oh my gosh. I do 3d printing for people and Adam hit the nail on the head when he talked about that primed model. I sell my prints as-printed (so in black, white, gray, and various filament colors) and so many times I've heard "....why is it blue/gray/orange/black/white?"
He's 100% correct, you have to temper expectations when someone simply isn't aware of the process.
I can't count the number of times I've shown software and said this is just to get an idea of the functionality, don't worry about fonts and colours for right now. The first thing they say is I don't like the colours. It's always about trying to find out what the solution to their problem is, not the solution they think they need.